DVI for PS3

[Los Broncos]

Just bought a PS3, my HDTV doesn't have HDMI.

I have it hooked up threw the component cable.

Do i need to buy a DVI cable to run Bluray?

[BroncoDoug]

Bluray will run on a b lack and white TV, so yeah, it will run with the component cables

[Broncoman13]

Just bought a PS3, my HDTV doesn't have HDMI.

I have it hooked up threw the component cable.

Do i need to buy a DVI cable to run Bluray?



You can use component video cables with the Blue Ray. I think you can get the 1080i using component but only the HDMI/DVI will give you the 1080p.

Also, if you use the DVI cable I believe you will have to run the audio with a different cable. Pretty sure the PS3 has an optic [out] for audio, just have to see if your tv or receiver have an optic [in].

I use component on my PS3 and get a brilliant picture. I've tried HDMI with it before and not as nice IMO, but it wasn't with a very good cable either. Also, don't chince on the cables. They may cost $60-80 for a decent one, but the picture difference IS noticeable. The audio fiber optic cables are all pretty much the same. If you lived here in Castle Rock I could just run one over to you as I have a few that I'm not using until I finish the theater room in the basement.

[MileHighMagic]

I've tried HDMI with it before and not as nice IMO, but it wasn't with a very good cable either. Also, don't chince on the cables. They may cost $60-80 for a decent one, but the picture difference IS noticeable. The audio fiber optic cables are all pretty much the same.

You can get quality cables at extremely cheap prices here:

http://monoprice.com

[Ramathorn]

fork over the cheese for an tv with HDMI!

[sixtimeseight]

You can use component video cables with the Blue Ray. I think you can get the 1080i using component but only the HDMI/DVI will give you the 1080p.

Also, if you use the DVI cable I believe you will have to run the audio with a different cable. Pretty sure the PS3 has an optic [out] for audio, just have to see if your tv or receiver have an optic [in].

I use component on my PS3 and get a brilliant picture. I've tried HDMI with it before and not as nice IMO, but it wasn't with a very good cable either. Also, don't chince on the cables. They may cost $60-80 for a decent one, but the picture difference IS noticeable. The audio fiber optic cables are all pretty much the same. If you lived here in Castle Rock I could just run one over to you as I have a few that I'm not using until I finish the theater room in the basement.

hahaha..... whatever you do, don't listen to this guy. Cables are the biggest scam in home electronics. There is exactly no difference from one HDMI cable to another as they are both DIGITAL. That means there is no possibility of signal degradation due to materials, distance or whatever else the cable companies try to pretend is important.

I mean, if I was dumb enough to get swindled by the guy at Best Buy and spent a grand cabling up my home theater system, I'd probably pretend that it looked better too, but luckily that didn't happen.

[missingnumber7]

Bluray will run on a b lack and white TV, so yeah, it will run with the component cables

Doesn't watching bluray on black and white defeat the purpose?

[Drek]

Doesn't watching bluray on black and white defeat the purpose?

Yeah, but so does watching it on anything but a 1080p TV, the vast majority of which have HDMI.

Also, you can get component to deliver 1080p, but be warned, if/when publishers want they can restrict their films to DVI/HDMI only, at which point your component setup will only play said film at 540p (if I recall), not even something nice like 1080i or 720p. Might never happen, but its something to consider.

If you don't have HDMI input and your tv is 1080p I'd recommend DVI, it'll give a slightly nicer picture quality than component and you won't need to invest in quality cables as opposed to a nice component. Monoprice is a great resource.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

DVI carries both video and audio. You can run 1080p through component cables. You can buy perfectly good DVI 1.3 cables at Sams club for 20 bucks. My xbox 360 is one of the older generations that doesn't support DVI... and I run 1080p via component outs without any problem.

[Broncoman13]

hahaha..... whatever you do, don't listen to this guy. Cables are the biggest scam in home electronics. There is exactly no difference from one HDMI cable to another as they are both DIGITAL. That means there is no possibility of signal degradation due to materials, distance or whatever else the cable companies try to pretend is important.

I mean, if I was dumb enough to get swindled by the guy at Best Buy and spent a grand cabling up my home theater system, I'd probably pretend that it looked better too, but luckily that didn't happen.


While you're wrong on several facts here, I won't get into everything except for the biggest reason the higher priced cables are better... FIT. Buy the cheaper cables and they won't fit near as tight as the stronger brand name cables. You consider spending $20 extra as being swindled... I'm sure you'd also buy a Panasonic product over a Sony to save an extra $100 or a Honda over an Acura to save a grand or two. That's fine and certainly your choice, but I choose to buy the more expensive, better built, longer lasting products.

Facts of cables. The shielding and actual connector are what matters. Even Monster Cables have problems with shielding.

[Broncoman13]

For the record, I'd never pay full price for anything at Bestbuy, Circuit City, or any other Electronics store.

I've detailed my experiences on the mane in the past, but I bought my Plasma TV, Mount Bracket, Cables, Warranty, PS3, 250 gig HD/DVR, w/installation (Brick Fireplace, $900 install to hide the cables in brick) all for under $4k taxes included.

55" Philips Ambilight TV - $2200 (regular $3300)
Mount $98 (regular $285 nearly 300% markup!)
Cables- $80 (2 HDMI cables, 3 sets of Component cables, 1 Optical)
Warranty- $400 (no discount there, they wouldn't budge!)
PS3/60GB- $499 (25% off as a "package deal" with the tv)
DVR- $199 (I don't remember the regular price but I think I got about 20% off)
Installation- FREE!

Unfortunately I lived in the house in Amarillo for only about 5 or 6 months after the installation. Fortunately I moved to Denver! Unfortunately I had to include my surround speakers, and all the wiring in the house. They tried to keep the TV as well but I asked for what it would have cost me to replace it here. Luckily I got to keep my TV!

Another time I was able to get my Klipsch Center Speaker and 400w sub for $800... oh and that includes my Logitech Harmony 880 remote (That I've since had to replace b/c I didn't buy a freaking warranty!) Best buy will work with you. The total for all of those items was around $1100. I told the guy that if he could get it down to $800 I'd buy it right there. He started by taking 25% off each item which came close but put me well over with taxes. All said and done, he got me down to just under $800... about 35% off! Kind of like a car, they won't let their product leave the store without making some sort of a profit. I realized how much the markups were there when I spoke with the GM in Ft Worth and he gave me the Mount for my TV at cost. 300%!!! Incredible!

Forgot to add one thing, I had the people at Bestbuy come to deliver my tv and they twice screwed up so I ended up getting a $250 gift card out of the deal as well!!!

[sixtimeseight]

While you're wrong on several facts here, I won't get into everything except for the biggest reason the higher priced cables are better... FIT. Buy the cheaper cables and they won't fit near as tight as the stronger brand name cables. You consider spending $20 extra as being swindled... I'm sure you'd also buy a Panasonic product over a Sony to save an extra $100 or a Honda over an Acura to save a grand or two. That's fine and certainly your choice, but I choose to buy the more expensive, better built, longer lasting products.

Facts of cables. The shielding and actual connector are what matters. Even Monster Cables have problems with shielding.

Ummmm.... no. If Hondas and Acuras were the exact same car, with nothing different about them than the badge, then your analogy would be correct. There is a reason to buy an Acura (I own one) instead of a Honda. There is no reason to buy a more expensive digital cable over a cheaper one (except for fit?????? wtf does that even mean?). If you can explain to me how better shielding will prevent digital signal from being degraded, I'd love to hear it. Cheap cables have a 0% data loss rate, expensive cables have a 0% data loss rate. That's all there is to it.

If you sincerely believe otherwise, I will put up to $10k on the fact that you can't tell the difference between a cheap HDMI cable and the best one on the market in a blind test any more times than would be predicted by chance.

[sixtimeseight]

Warranty- $400 (no discount there, they wouldn't budge!)

Oh, I get it. Someone should do a study on the correlation between people who buy extended warranties and also buy expensive cables. I bet it's pretty much the exact same group.

Did you also get the warranty on your awesome $500 cables? Wouldn't want the dog to chew em up (is that even covered?)

[2KBack]

ah, the videopile discussion. A conversation that is earning it's place with religion and politics with it's volatility.

[sixtimeseight]

Nah, not really. The discussion usually ends when I ask them to put their money where their mouth is. Something that isn't generally possible with religion or politics.

[Broncoman13]

Ummmm.... no. If Hondas and Acuras were the exact same car, with nothing different about them than the badge, then your analogy would be correct. There is a reason to buy an Acura (I own one) instead of a Honda. There is no reason to buy a more expensive digital cable over a cheaper one (except for fit?????? wtf does that even mean?). If you can explain to me how better shielding will prevent digital signal from being degraded, I'd love to hear it. Cheap cables have a 0% data loss rate, expensive cables have a 0% data loss rate. That's all there is to it.

If you sincerely believe otherwise, I will put up to $10k on the fact that you can't tell the difference between a cheap HDMI cable and the best one on the market in a blind test any more times than would be predicted by chance.

http://1touchmovie.com/cables/HDMI_Cables.html

Thousands of people have had problems with HDMI cables and the way they fit (or don't). HDMI was never "spec'd" and therefore a lot of problems with fit and pin/connector retention. You can do a quick search on HDMI and Image distortion and probably find 95% of the causes were due to the connectors not fitting properly or securely. Not that you have to buy the best quality connectors to solve this problem. The connectors from monoprice fit well and do not cause this problem (that I've heard of).

[Broncoman13]

Nah, not really. The discussion usually ends when I ask them to put their money where their mouth is. Something that isn't generally possible with religion or politics.

So you think b/c a 15 year old can go on the internet and offer up a $10k bet that nobody would ever see, you "win" a discussion. Tell you what, I'll let you "win" the discussion so I don't have to waste time with an ignorant waif. Unlike you, the internet millionaire, I have much better things to spend $10k on than betting on something that is really not the "center of my life".

The problems with HDMI cables are well documented. The problems with Plasma TVs are well documented. I personally buy a warranty on almost everything that is over a set price. Again, not being a (internet) millionaire like yourself has it's drawbacks... one of those is not having the money to buy a $2500 tv everytime it goes out!

[sixtimeseight]

But wouldn't you love to have 10,000 free dollars, just for proving that you have the ability to tell the difference between two different cables? Seems like easy money to me.

Of course not.

Next please.

[sixtimeseight]

Oh, and one more thing... LOL at you using that link from a company that is trying to sell overpriced cables as some sort of proof that they are better. Seriously, is that the best you got?

[sixtimeseight]

p.s. I've never had any problem with my $10 HDMI cables "fitting" in my TV or in my PS3 or any other component. I really find it hard to believe that people buy into this crap. I guess PT Barnum was right.

[Broncoman13]

Get over yourself. "Next please", like you've just won some sort of contest. You can clearly tell the difference between a cheaply made connector. It's also a simple fact that a longer run of cable is going to have a greater reduction in signal, commonly referred to as signal degradation. Factors as simple as sharp bends in the cable can cause a significant loss in signal strength. Another fact is the pins in the connector itself. The pins in most connectors are cheaply made and will cause degradation as well. I know you probably thought you knew everything there was to know about signal transfer but I assure you, there are several flaws in your logic. I've worked all kinds of electronics on aircraft. Analog and Digital systems have one thing in common when it comes to faults, CONNECTORS. So while you're theory of the cables being the same is partially true, it has nothing to do with the quality of connector.

If your parents choose not to buy warranties with their expensive purchases, that's their business... doesn't mean that's fitting for everyone.

I love how you try to push someone else's opinion, brilliant!

Internet tough guy or Internet Millionaire... which is worse???

[Broncoman13]

Oh, and one more thing... LOL at you using that link from a company that is trying to sell overpriced cables as some sort of proof that they are better. Seriously, is that the best you got?



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990642

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hdmi1.htm

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4ADBS_enUS242US246&q=HDMI+and+Handshake+issue (7,260 results for HDMI Handshake Issues)

Next time you should do a little research before you open that cockholster!

[sixtimeseight]

Ok, with all that proof out there, you should be ecstatic to take me up on my bet. I said up to 10k, but I'll go down to whatever your comfortable with, although anything less than 1k is a waste of time for me. So we have a bet or are you just going to keep running your mouth?

[sixtimeseight]

P.S. All those links you put up deal with an issue completely unrelated to image quality, which is what you claimed was the problem with inferior cables in the first place. Keep floundering though, it's kind of funny and a little pathetic. Ok, a lot pathetic.

[Broncoman13]

As DVI and HDMI connections become more and more widely used, we are often asked: which is better, DVI (or HDMI) or component video? The answer, as it happens, is not cut-and-dried.

First, to clear away one element that can be confusing: DVI and HDMI are exactly the same as one another, image-quality-wise. The principal differences are that HDMI carries audio as well as video, and uses a different type of connector, but both use the same encoding scheme, and that's why a DVI source can be connected to an HDMI monitor, or vice versa, with a DVI/HDMI cable, with no intervening converter box.

The upshot of this article--in case you're not inclined to read all the details--is that it's very hard to predict whether a digital DVI or HDMI connection will produce a better or worse image than an analog component video connection. There will often be significant differences between the digital and the analog signals, but those differences are not inherent in the connection type and instead depend upon the characteristics of the source device (e.g., your DVD player) and the display device (e.g., your TV set). Why that is, however, requires a bit more discussion.

What are DVI, HDMI and Component Video?

DVI/HDMI and Component Video are all video standards which support a variety of resolutions, but which deliver the signal from the source to the display in very different ways. The principal important difference is that DVI/HDMI deliver the signal in a digital format, much the same way that a file is delivered from one computer to another along a network, while Component Video is an analog format, delivering the signal not as a bitstream, but as a set of continuously varying voltages representing (albeit indirectly, as we'll get to in a moment) the red, green and blue components of the signal.

Both DVI/HDMI and Component Video deliver signals as discrete red, green, and blue color components, together with sync information which allows the display to determine when a new line, or a new frame, begins. The DVI/HDMI standard delivers these along three data channels in a format called T.M.D.S., which stands for "Transmission Minimized Differential Signaling." Big words aside, the T.M.D.S. format basically involves a blue channel to which horizontal and vertical sync are added, and separate green and red channels.

Component Video is delivered, similarly, with the color information split up three ways. However, component video uses a "color-difference" type signal, which consists of Luminance (the "Y", or "green," channel, representing the total brightness of the image), Red Minus Luminance (the "Pr," or "Red," channel), and Blue Minus Luminance (the "Pb," or "Blue," channel). The sync pulses for both horizontal and vertical are delivered on the Y channel. The display calculates the values of red, green and blue from the Y, Pb, and Pr signals.

Both signal types, then, are fundamentally quite similar; they break up the image in similar ways, and deliver the same type of information to the display, albeit in different forms. How they differ, as we'll see, will depend to a great extent upon the particular characteristics of the source and display devices, and can depend upon cabling as well.

Isn't Digital Just Better?

It is often supposed by writers on this subject that "digital is better." Digital signal transfer, it is assumed, is error-free, while analog signals are always subject to some amount of degradation and information loss. There is an element of truth to this argument, but it tends to fly in the face of real-world considerations. First, there is no reason why any perceptible degradation of an analog component video signal should occur even over rather substantial distances; the maximum runs in home theater installations do not present a challenge for analog cabling built to professional standards. Second, it is a flawed assumption to suppose that digital signal handling is always error-free. DVI and HDMI signals aren't subject to error correction; once information is lost, it's lost for good. That is not a consideration with well-made cable over short distances, but can easily become a factor at distance.

So What Does Determine Image Quality?

Video doesn't just translate directly from source material to displays, for a variety of reasons. Very few displays operate at the native resolutions of common source material, so when you're viewing material in 480p, 720p, or 1080i, there is, of necessity, some scaling going on. Meanwhile, the signals representing colors have to be accurately rendered, which is dependent on black level and "delta," the relationship between signal level and actual as-rendered color level. Original signal formats don't correspond well to display hardware; for example, DVD recordings have 480 lines, but non-square pixels. What all of this means is that there is signal processing to go on along the signal chain.

The argument often made for the DVI or HDMI signal formats is the "pure digital" argument--that by taking a digital recording, such as a DVD or a digital satellite signal, and rendering it straight into digital form as a DVI or HDMI signal, and then delivering that digital signal straight to the display, there is a sort of a perfect no-loss-and-no-alteration-of-information signal chain. If the display itself is a native digital display (e.g. an LCD or Plasma display), the argument goes, the signal never has to undergo digital-to-analog conversion and therefore is less altered along the way.

That might be true, were it not for the fact that digital signals are encoded in different ways and have to be converted, and that these signals have to be scaled and processed to be displayed. Consequently, there are always conversions going on, and these conversions aren't always easy going. "Digital to digital" conversion is no more a guarantee of signal quality than "digital to analog," and in practice may be substantially worse. Whether it's better or worse will depend upon the circuitry involved--and that is something which isn't usually practical to figure out. As a general rule, with consumer equipment, one simply doesn't know how signals are processed, and one doesn't know how that processing varies by input. Analog and digital inputs must either be scaled through separate circuits, or one must be converted to the other to use the same scaler. How is that done? In general, you won't find an answer to that anywhere in your instruction manual, and even if you did, it'd be hard to judge which is the better scaler without viewing the actual video output. It's fair to say, in general, that even in very high-end consumer gear, the quality of circuits for signal processing and scaling is quite variable.

Additionally, it's not uncommon to find that the display characteristics of different inputs have been set up differently. Black level, for example, may vary considerably from the digital to the analog inputs, and depending on how sophisticated your setup options on your display are, that may not be an easy thing to recalibrate.

The Role of Cable and Connection Quality

Cable quality, in general, should not be a significant factor in the DVI/HDMI versus Component Video comparison, as long as the cables in question are of high quality. There are, however, ways in which cable quality issues can come into play.

Analog component video is an extremely robust signal type; we have had our customers run analog component, without any need for boosters, relays or other special equipment, up to 200 feet without any signal quality issues at all. However, at long lengths, cable quality can be a consideration--in particular, impedance needs to be strictly controlled to a tight tolerance (ideally, 75 +/- 1.5 ohms) to prevent problems with signal reflection which can cause ghosting or ringing.

DVI and HDMI, unfortunately, are not so robust. The problem here is the same as the virtue of analog component: tight control over impedance. When the professional video industry went to digital signals, it settled upon a standard--SDI, serial digital video--which was designed to be run in coaxial cables, where impedance can be controlled very tightly, and consequently, uncompressed, full-blown HD signals can be run hundreds of feet with no loss of information in SDI. For reasons known only to the designers of the DVI and HDMI standards, this very sound design principle was ignored; instead of coaxial cable, the DVI and HDMI signals are run balanced, through twisted-pair cable. The best twisted pair cables control impedance to about +/- 10%. When a digital signal is run through a cable, the edges of the bits (represented by sudden transitions in voltage) round off, and the rounding increases dramatically with distance. Meanwhile, poor control over impedance results in signal reflections--portions of the signal bounce off of the display end of the line, propagate back down the cable, and return, interfering with later information in the same bitstream. At some point, the data become unrecoverable, and with no error correction available, there's no way to restore the lost information.

DVI and HDMI connections, for this reason, are subject to the "digital cliff" phenomenon. Up to some length, a DVI or HDMI cable will perform just fine; the rounding and reflections will not compromise the ability of the display device to reconstruct the original bitstream, and no information will be lost. As we make the cable longer and longer, the difficulty of reconstructing the bitstream increases. At some point, unrecoverable bit errors start to occur; these are colloquially described in the home theater community as "sparklies," because the bit errors manifest themselves as pixel dropouts which make the image sparkle. If we make the cable just a bit longer, so much information is lost that the display becomes unable to reconstitute enough information to even render an image; the bitstream has fallen off the digital cliff, so called because of the abruptness of the failure. A cable design that works perfectly at 20 feet may get "sparkly" at 25, and stop working entirely at 30.

In practice, it's very hard to say when a DVI or HDMI signal will fail. We have found well-made DVI cables to be quite reliable up to 50 feet, but HDMI cable, with its smaller profile, is a bit more of a puzzle. Because the ability to reconstitute the bitstream varies depending on the quality of the circuitry in the source and display devices, it's not uncommon for a cable to work fine at 30, 40, or 50 feet on one source/display combination, and not work at all on another.

The Upshot: It Depends

So, which is better, DVI or component? HDMI or component? The answer--unsatisfying, perhaps, but true--is that it depends. It depends upon your source and display devices, and there's no good way, in principle, to say in advance whether the digital or the analog connection will render a better picture. You may even find, say, that your DVD player looks better through its DVI or HDMI output, while your satellite or cable box looks better through its component output, on the same display. In this case, there's no real substitute for simply plugging it in and giving it a try both ways.

[sixtimeseight]

lol... what does an article about DVI vs. HDMI have to do with anything? Seriously dude, this is getting sad. Just admit you were wrong about HDMI picture quality being different between cables and be done with it.

[Broncoman13]

P.S. All those links you put up deal with an issue completely unrelated to image quality, which is what you claimed was the problem with inferior cables in the first place. Keep floundering though, it's kind of funny and a little pathetic. Ok, a lot pathetic.


You think your mommy is going to let you borrow all that money or are you going to keep this Internet Millionaire persona going strong?

The handshake issue has everything to do with signal problems and image distortion/failure. I know it's difficult for your pea-brain to analyze but there is a direct relation. If you can't understand it tell me now and I'll quit wasting my time trying to teach someone that is incapable of understanding. It's all good dude, I know a lot of people with IQs under 85 that can't understand this stuff. It's not quite rocket science (which I could talk as well) but it does take a little bit of "brain power" to understand. Actually, I'll just quit wasting my time with you. I'm willing to bet that Lynchmob could care less about our arguement or your internet 10k. Though I bet you that Mr. Peepers would call you out and take that bet...

[Broncoman13]

lol... what does an article about DVI vs. HDMI have to do with anything? Seriously dude, this is getting sad. Just admit you were wrong about HDMI picture quality being different between cables and be done with it.

Man this is much worse than I thought. Not only do you not have the ability to understand electronics, you don't have the ability to comprehend either. I bet you dig ditches for a living... in fact, I'll bet you 50k of those internet dollars that you dig ditches for a living and moonlight with a "will work for beer sign" on the corner of a Beltway somewhere!

[sixtimeseight]

Just because you're middle-aged, overweight, unhappy with your life and broke, doesn't mean everybody else is. Believe it or not, some people actually have disposable income that didn't come from a credit card. Obviously, if you took me up on my wager, we'd use some sort of escrow system that would ensure both of us had the money beforehand (which you obviously don't). Keep twisting in the wind though looking for ways to squirm out of it, you really look like the big man. Just don't let the boss see that you're reading a message board in your cubicle, you might not get that big .50 cent raise you've been angling for.


Oh yea.. Next.

I'm done with you and done with this thread, I'm pretty sure anyone can see who the winner of this argument was. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to take me up on my wager (bwahahahahah)

[Broncoman13]

hahaha..... whatever you do, don't listen to this guy. Cables are the biggest scam in home electronics. There is exactly no difference from one HDMI cable to another as they are both DIGITAL. That means there is no possibility of signal degradation due to materials, distance or whatever else the cable companies try to pretend is important.

I mean, if I was dumb enough to get swindled by the guy at Best Buy and spent a grand cabling up my home theater system, I'd probably pretend that it looked better too, but luckily that didn't happen.

No possibility huh?

Funny, but I have about 4 reps now from this thread alone... one for asking why I keep on with you. Do you forget the things you type and then try to throw out internet dollars to "win"?

Well, I'd love to stay and play your silly little game but it's getting boring and you clearly don't have the ability to comprehend articles, understand electronics, or even remember what you wrote earlier in this thread. You win, I can't compete with that level of ignorance.

[Broncoman13]

Just because you're middle-aged, overweight, unhappy with your life and broke, doesn't mean everybody else is. Believe it or not, some people actually have disposable income that didn't come from a credit card. Obviously, if you took me up on my wager, we'd use some sort of escrow system that would ensure both of us had the money beforehand (which you obviously don't). Keep twisting in the wind though looking for ways to squirm out of it, you really look like the big man. Just don't let the boss see that you're reading a message board in your cubicle, you might not get that big .50 cent raise you've been angling for.


Oh yea.. Next.

I'm done with you and done with this thread, I'm pretty sure anyone can see who the winner of this argument was. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to take me up on my wager (bwahahahahah)


LOL Hilarious! Don't drink and post people!!! ROFL!

[Broncoman13]

btw, there's probably 50 or more people on this board that would vouch that I'm neither middle-aged, overweight, or unhappy with my life. One could argue that I'm a bit on the broke side... but that doesn't really bother me. I'm smart enough to realize that making $10k internet bets is a bit immature!

[Lev Vyvanse]

hahaha..... whatever you do, don't listen to this guy. Cables are the biggest scam in home electronics. There is exactly no difference from one HDMI cable to another as they are both DIGITAL. That means there is no possibility of signal degradation due to materials, distance or whatever else the cable companies try to pretend is important.

I mean, if I was dumb enough to get swindled by the guy at Best Buy and spent a grand cabling up my home theater system, I'd probably pretend that it looked better too, but luckily that didn't happen.


If you sincerely believe otherwise, I will put up to $10k on the fact that you can't tell the difference between a cheap HDMI cable and the best one on the market in a blind test any more times than would be predicted by chance.

I'd take you up on that bet. But you would have to buy the 500ft cable we'd be testing with.
ROFL!

[Broncoman13]

I'd take you up on that bet. But you would have to buy the 500ft cable we'd be testing with.
ROFL!

He'd back out in a heartbeat, he's one of those internet millionaires... I'll send him a PM and he won't respond. I've heard of the internet rich guy... but haven't ran into one until now. I bet he has a 12" penis too! I'm so envious! ;D :notworthy

[Los Broncos]

I went out and bought a HDMI to DVI cable, hooked it up and was able to get PS3 picture.

But i couldn't get my cable TV to work.

Now, i cant get anything to work on the TV, did i fry it?

I called my cable company and they reset the box and still nothing.

And i cant get the PS3 to pull up on the screen.

I'm getting no signal from anything.

[Broncoman13]

Just read on a forum that the full system reset (not the one we tried) is accomplished by either unplugging the power for up to one hour... or turning the set off and holding the power button for 15+ seconds. You will know if the system reset b/c the white W will appear on the screen upon re-starting the set.

Let me know if that works...

[ØrangeÇrush]

What Makes one HDMI Cable Better than Another, and Does it Matter?
HDMI cable quality is a bit complicated, and unfortunately, it's hard to judge from a spec sheet, especially because very few manufacturers provide any useful product specs. There are a few things to bear in mind.


At present, to our knowledge, all of our competitors' HDMI cables are built in China (for more detail on this point, see this article). The Blue Jeans Cable Belden HDMI cables are the only HDMI cables which are manufactured, in principal part, in the USA (at this time, although the cable is made here, we rely on Chinese vendors to affix connectors to it; we hope to bring connectorization of HDMI cables in house in 2008). We are often told that some brand or other of HDMI cable is manufactured in the US, and in every case, we've found that not to be so; rather, what often happens is that while the cable is sourced from China, the marketing materials obscure the fact. Don't let the fact that an HDMI cable bears a U.S. brand name lead you to believe that that HDMI cable contains American products, American labor or American know-how; none of them, other than ours, do. And China may be an easy place to get a good price, but it is not a good place to get a leading-edge technological product; for top-quality data cables (and HDMI is a data cable), the US is still the place to go.

The Chinese source problem makes it very hard to get a spec sheet, and very hard to know what that spec sheet means, when dealing with an HDMI cable. Most vendors of HDMI cable in the US don't know what attributes would make a good HDMI cable, and since they don't participate in the manufacture beyond specifying jacket printing and the shape of the molded connector, they don't really have much reason to find out. The result is that most citations to product spec that one finds in connection with the sale of HDMI cable are references to the product's wire gage. Wire gage is somewhat meaningful, but judging HDMI cable quality by comparing wire gage is like judging automobile quality by comparing engine block length--a very, very inexact way of looking at the problem.

The primary work of an HDMI cable is done by the four shielded twisted pairs which carry the color, sync, and clock signals. The designers of the HDMI standard made an inexcusable error of judgment in running these signals balanced, in twisted pairs, rather than unbalanced, in coaxes; attenuation (the tendency of the signal to get weaker with distance) is much greater, and impedance and timing are harder to control, in twisted pairs than in coax. Control of the cable impedance is critical to keeping the rounding of the bit edges under control; the more the impedance wanders off of spec, the more the signal will round, and the closer the cable comes to failure. Where a coaxial cable's impedance can be controlled within two percent of spec, it's a challenge to keep a twisted pair any tighter than about 15% plus or minus.

The HDMI signal will fail if attenuation is too high, or if the bit transitions become excessively rounded so that the receiving unit can't reconstitute them accurately. There's no really reliable benchmark for just how much attenuation is acceptable, or how round the shoulders can be, before the "sparklies" will start. (Yes, there are specs for these things in the official HDMI spec document, but real-world devices vary so much that meeting the spec is no guarantee of success, while failing it is no guarantee of actual failure.) But while wire gage has something to do with the former, it's really the latter that's important; and wire gauge has nothing to do, at least directly, with impedance control.

Transmission line impedance, in any cable, is dependent on the cable's materials and physical dimensions. For purposes of an HDMI cable, these are:
1. the shape and size of the paired wires;
2. the thickness, and dielectric properties, of the insulation on the paired wires;
3. the dimensions of the shield over the pair.
These seem, in principle, like simple things to control--that is, until one spends a bit of time in a wire and cable factory and finds out just how many little problems there are. Wire is never perfect; its dimensions and shape vary from point to point, and small dimensional variations can make for significant impedance changes. Wire can suffer from periodicity (in fact, strictly speaking, it not only can, but always, at some level, does) because it's been drawn over a wheel that was microscopically out-of-round, and that periodicity will cause the wire to resonate at particular wavelengths, which can really wreak havoc. The plastic dielectric has to be consistently extruded to the correct diameter (and thousandths of an inch matter here!); if it's foamed, it needs to have highly consistent bubble size so that one side of the dielectric isn't airier than another, or one foot airier than the next. The two wires in the pair need not to wander in relation to one another; as they "open up" or are pressed tightly together because of tensioning on the wire-twisting machine (or tension applied to the cable by other handling, or by shield application, or...), or because the finished cable is being flexed, the impedance changes. The shield is a factor in the impedance as well, because both signal wires have capacitance to the shield, and if the foil is wrapped more tightly in one place and more loosely in another, that, too, will cause impedance to vary. (And these are just a few of the obvious problems; manufacturing processes involve other problems that nobody not involved in manufacturing would ever think of. For example, the lube that's used to assist in wire drawing needs to be washed off the wire before dielectric is extruded over it; what if the side from which a jet of cleaner is fired at the wire gets cleaner than the opposite side, and the dielectric winds up conforming differently to one side of the cable than the other? What about the other thousand things you and I, not working in a wire factory, have never even begun to think about?) As a result, although every manufacturer's HDMI cable is built to meet a nominal 100 ohm characteristic impedance, every foot of every cable is different from every other. The best one can do is to hold impedance within a range, centered on 100 ohms; the official HDMI spec calls for 100 ohms plus or minus 15%, which for a coax would be horribly sloppy. The tighter that tolerance can be kept, the better the performance will be.

Worse still, impedance is not a one-dimensional characteristic. HDMI cable operates over an enormous frequency bandwidth, and impedance in a twisted pair is frequency-dependent (in a coax it is, too, but far, far less so). A twisted pair's impedance will rise relative to frequency; how much it will do so, and how evenly and regularly, will depend upon subtle physical characteristics. So, strictly speaking, no cable can actually be within tolerance for impedance over the whole operating range of the cable; it can only be within tolerance by the method the spec designates for measurement.

Impedance control is important for another reason: timing. As impedance varies, so will the time it takes a signal to travel down the cable. Electricity travels at nearly the speed of light; how close to the speed of light it travels depends on the dielectric, and is referred to as the "velocity of propagation." The objective, in putting together the four pairs in an HDMI cable, is to have them be identical; but in actual practice, each pair in a four-pair set will have its own delay. If the delay of one pair is sufficiently greater than the delay of another pair, the receiving device will not know which "red" pixel belongs to which "blue" and "green" pixel, or if the clock circuit is off, it may be impossible to time any of the color signals reliably. Since this delay depends on the consistency and dimensions of the dielectric, and the consistency and dimensions of the dielectric are important factors in impedance, the same requirement for consistent impedance applies here; if impedance is too inconsistent, timing will be too inconsistent, and the whole system will fail.

One way of looking at cable performance is to chart the attenuation for a given length of cable against frequency. For any cable, attenuation (measured in dB) will increase with frequency; this attenuation comes from a few factors. Loss to resistance goes up with frequency, because higher frequency signals are able to use less and less of the cross-section of the wire (this is known as "skin effect") and so have less copper to travel through. Losses to reactance -- capacitance and inductance -- also increase with frequency. Then, what we call "return loss" adds the most irregular, and difficult-to-control, component to the loss. "Return loss" is the loss to impedance mismatch, and is so called because it represents the portion of the signal which is lost when, upon encountering a change in the impedance of the circuit (this may be a change in impedance along the cable, or a change of impedance on entering or leaving a connector, or a circuit board trace, or encountering a different impedance than expected at the load end of the circuit), it reflects back along the cable towards the source rather than being delivered to the load. While basic resistive and reactive losses are pretty reliable and have a definite relationship to frequency, return loss can be quite irregular. A graph of return loss against frequency, rather than showing a nice, consistent curve, is characterized by sharp, spiky lines. Why is this? Well, return loss has to do, more than anything else, with those manufacturing tolerances and their impact upon impedance. Every wire, at some level, has some periodicity, and so resonates somewhat at some unintended frequency. Every dielectric extruder fails, at some level, to extrude the dielectric consistently; every spooler that winds wire or dielectric-covered wire, every wire twister, every unreeler that handles that wire as it goes back into another stage of processing, every foil-wrap and drain-wire machine, every planetary cabler (which bundles and twists the pairs together with one another), every jacket handler and extruder--all of these machines, in all of these processes, apply microscopic irregularities to the cable which show up as return loss. Return loss can't be eliminated, at least not in a real-world cable; but it can be, within limits, made as small and as consistent across a range of frequencies, as possible.

Generally speaking, devices handle very linear or predictable losses very well. If one knows that one part of a signal will come in a thousand times weaker than another part, it's easy to "EQ" the incoming signal to boost the weak part to match the level of the strong part. But return loss can't be EQ'd out because it's too uneven and unpredictable.

Return loss, not resistance, is the critical consideration in determining the quality of an HDMI cable; if one were comparing cables with similar resistance, capacitance, and inductance values against one another, and consulting a chart of attenuation relative to frequency, what one would generally see would be that cables with superior return loss characteristics would show a flatter attenuation curve than the others. This is very important in HDMI because the required bandwidth for an HDMI signal is enormous, and the higher the frequency, the harder it is to control return loss.

Generally, in looking at HDMI cable products currently available on the market, we've found that these issues get overlooked. Instead of trying to control impedance well, which will result in flattening the curve on the attenuation chart, manufacturers generally try to control resistance. Why? Well, resistance is a lot easier to control. Bigger wire (smaller AWG number) has less resistance, and choice of materials can play a role, too (silver-plated copper is lower in resistance than bare copper, and bare copper is lower in resistance than tin-plated copper, for example). But as the frequency demands placed on the cable increase, bigger wire doesn't really help all that much (and, for a whole slew of reasons having to do with manufacturing process control, it can actually hurt), because it's not the total loss that's limiting performance; it's the non-linear component of the loss that's the real problem. With return loss specs not generally available for Chinese-sourced cable, one often can't get a good idea exactly what basis there is for comparison between two HDMI cables.

So, how does one compare? We provide a spec sheet for our HDMI cable, but you will find, if you go looking for similar specs on competing products, that spec sheets are few and far between. Another basis for comparison is to get your vendor to send you a copy of his compliance testing certificate--but, for various reasons, many vendors cannot or will not supply this information. Sometimes, all one can do is try a cable on a given set of devices, and see if it works. That may not be the most satisfying answer, but it is often the only answer there is.


food for thought

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi-cables/index.htm

[Los Broncos]

Just read on a forum that the full system reset (not the one we tried) is accomplished by either unplugging the power for up to one hour... or turning the set off and holding the power button for 15+ seconds. You will know if the system reset b/c the white W will appear on the screen upon re-starting the set.

Let me know if that works...

My girlfriend just found that same info.

I tried unplugging it from the wall and plugging it back in.

Holding for ten to fifteen minutes and nothing.

Should i try just leaving it unplugged overnight and try in the morning?

But hey, i took my tv into her room and we can get cable if we connect the coaxial straight to the set.

So i need to decide if i want to buy a new tv for the front room and leave it alone.

[Broncoman13]

I wouldn't buy a new tv, it sounds like the set is expecting a signal through the dvi input.... you just have to find out how to reset that. Call the manufacturer and they should be able to walk you through it. I also found a bunch of User Manuals for your brand tv on the web, you should be able to find yours if you don't have it anymore... don't be impulsive on this as well! Find out for sure that your tv is fried (which I doubt).

[Los Broncos]

I wouldn't buy a new tv, it sounds like the set is expecting a signal through the dvi input.... you just have to find out how to reset that. Call the manufacturer and they should be able to walk you through it. I also found a bunch of User Manuals for your brand tv on the web, you should be able to find yours if you don't have it anymore... don't be impulsive on this as well! Find out for sure that your tv is fried (which I doubt).

Well, just got off of the phone with Westinghouse.

I explained the problem, they me told if the factory reset isn't working then i need to have it checked out somewhere.

I mean, i have to working in the bedroom with cable and the DVD player.

Hooking up the DVI was a bad mistake.

If i buy a new set, should i go component this time and not use HDMI?

[Broncoman13]

Well, just got off of the phone with Westinghouse.

I explained the problem, they me told if the factory reset isn't working then i need to have it checked out somewhere.

I mean, i have to working in the bedroom with cable and the DVD player.

Hooking up the DVI was a bad mistake.

If i buy a new set, should i go component this time and not use HDMI?


Any new set will have the 1.2 or 1.3 version for HDMI and shouldn't have any issues. For my money though, I'll stick with Component cables. I have the HDMI cable and the component cable for my PS3 and really can't tell the difference. I use the Component cable b/c it makes it easier to run through my stereo receiver (which does not have HDMI ins/outs). Still, the difference in the two is minor and you don't have to worry about upgrading other components (receiver).

[Los Broncos]

Any new set will have the 1.2 or 1.3 version for HDMI and shouldn't have any issues. For my money though, I'll stick with Component cables. I have the HDMI cable and the component cable for my PS3 and really can't tell the difference. I use the Component cable b/c it makes it easier to run through my stereo receiver (which does not have HDMI ins/outs). Still, the difference in the two is minor and you don't have to worry about upgrading other components (receiver).

Should i upgrade my cable box to an HDMI connection?

Or stick with the component cable?

My girlfriend just called and said she bought a new Samsung 42'' inch set.

It has two HDMI imputs, should i just return the HDMI cable and buy a component cable?

[Los Broncos]

And, i found a place that will look at my other TV for forty five bucks to tell me whats wrong with it.

I mean, we wanted a new set for the front room anyways, this was just an excuse to buy it.

Thanks for attempting to help me Alex.

[Broncoman13]

I'd take you up on that bet. But you would have to buy the 500ft cable we'd be testing with.
ROFL!

Suprise suprise... I just offered to take the bet and he said we would have to up to 100's of thousands of $$$ (internet money is endless I guess). And then the internet millionaire decided to go internet tough guy and offered to meet in a parking lot somewhere. This guy is supposedly near 40, balding, with a micro penis that magically increases 10 fold while on the internet.

Oh, and he claims that he never said that distance was part of the 'equation'.

I'm starting to like this guy. He reminds me a lot of our president. You know he's got to be smart yet he keeps proving otherwise!

Here's to you internet millionaire and tough guy. Meet me in a parking lot!

LMAO. What are you 15 posing as 40?

[Broncoman13]

And, i found a place that will look at my other TV for forty five bucks to tell me whats wrong with it.

I mean, we wanted a new set for the front room anyways, this was just an excuse to buy it.

Thanks for attempting to help me Alex.



If you already have the HDMI cable I would just stick with it. It will work and work well with the new Samsung TV. If you ever run into problems with the HDMI cable it's more than likely something that can be fixed rather easily by resetting the TV and/or PS3. Unless you can get your money back I would just stick with the HDMI.

[Los Broncos]

If you already have the HDMI cable I would just stick with it. It will work and work well with the new Samsung TV. If you ever run into problems with the HDMI cable it's more than likely something that can be fixed rather easily by resetting the TV and/or PS3. Unless you can get your money back I would just stick with the HDMI.

Cool, should i just stick with component for the cable box? Or, upgrade it to an HDMI output?

[Bronco X]

Do NOT spend $80 on cables folks. That is pure snake oil. There may be bad cables but that's no justification for throwing your money away. If you are smart about it you can find quality cables at good prices... and MileHighMagic provided at least one way... you won't go wrong with monoprice. I've bought exclusively from them for a couple of years and have had zero problems. Go to avsforum or any other forum and do a search on them... I'd challenge anyone to find a single negative comment about their products. I can only laugh at anyone who thinks they are doing themselves a favor by spending 10x more on cables.

[Broncoman13]

Cool, should i just stick with component for the cable box? Or, upgrade it to an HDMI output?

If your cable box doesn't have the HDMI output I wouldn't upgrade for that feature alone. Component cables will be just fine.

[Broncoman13]

Do NOT spend $80 on cables folks. That is pure snake oil. There may be bad cables but that's no justification for throwing your money away. If you are smart about it you can find quality cables at good prices... and MileHighMagic provided at least one way... you won't go wrong with monoprice. I've bought exclusively from them for a couple of years and have had zero problems. Go to avsforum or any other forum and do a search on them... I'd challenge anyone to find a single negative comment about their products. I can only laugh at anyone who thinks they are doing themselves a favor by spending 10x more on cables.


Monoprice is a good source for video cables. I've not had good luck with audio cables from them though. Really, the only difference in the monoprice cables is the mesh coloring. Monster likes to make'em "pretty". Still, you can get cables off of the internet that are "cheap" and they are most definately not the same in terms of quality.

[Bronco X]

Monoprice is a good source for video cables. I've not had good luck with audio cables from them though. Really, the only difference in the monoprice cables is the mesh coloring. Monster likes to make'em "pretty". Still, you can get cables off of the internet that are "cheap" and they are most definately not the same in terms of quality.

I'm not saying there aren't cheap cables that are bad, just that there are cheap cables that are good (in other words, price is not necessarily an indicator of the level of quality you're getting). There's no reason to spend money on Monster cables when there are alternatives like monoprice. I've never had any problems with the optical cables I've got from monoprice.

[Broncoman13]

I'm not saying there aren't cheap cables that are bad, just that there are cheap cables that are good (in other words, price is not necessarily an indicator of the level of quality you're getting). There's no reason to spend money on Monster cables when there are alternatives like monoprice. I've never had any problems with the optical cables I've got from monoprice.

No I agree that monoprice's cables, while inexpensive are good cables. But it's not like you can go and buy them right now and have them installed for a movie or ball game this evening. It sounded to me like Lynch was looking for some cables to install "right now". I've not looked, but I don't think monoprice has dvi cables for PS3's either???

[Los Broncos]

If your cable box doesn't have the HDMI output I wouldn't upgrade for that feature alone. Component cables will be just fine.

Cool, ill let ya know how it works out.