Upshaw Cool with Broncos Cheating?

[plummershelper]

SPYING AN INTERNAL THING, TOO

As the heat continues to rise regarding Spygate II, a reader has forwarded to us a link to a 1999 item from Mike Freeman, then of the New York Times and currently with CBSSports.com, regarding the possibility that the New York Jets (for whom Pats coach Bill Belichick worked at the time), might have been secretly videotaping . . . their own players . . . in the locker room.

The issue came up because an unnamed Jets defensive player entered a small room at the team's practice facility, which contained a bank of video screens. Some of the monitors included images of the locker room.

"A lot of things around here have knocked me for a loop, but this is one of the biggest,'' said the player. ''My first thought was, 'Has the team been spying on us?'''

In Freeman's article, NFLPA Executive Director Gene Upshaw said that he believes 25 percent of the league's teams use hidden cameras in the locker room.

But Upshaw didn't seem to be all that bothered by it.

"When I'm in Denver, in a meeting with the players at the Broncos' facility, you see certain things in the room and know they're not lights," Upshaw said. "I know management is listening. When I'm in Cincinnati, I know Owner Mike Brown is listening. I don't want to say how I know, but I know. But when it comes to this issue of cameras around the players, it's not a big deal to me, because they are there for the security of our players, and obviously the safety of the players is a primary concern for me. I'd rather err on the side of caution, than have some nut come into the locker room and do something.''

But, Gene, are hidden cameras that no one knows about really going to deter a "nut" from doing anything?

Art Modell, who owned the Ravens at the time, confirmed Upshaw's beliefs: ''Some teams are using surveillance equipment in the locker room, yes. But I'd fire the first guy who did that here. No video cameras, no audiotapes, no eavesdropping.''

''This is a sensitive issue,'' Upshaw said. ''I'm sure it will be talked about a lot in the future.''

It hasn't been. But given the current focus on things the Patriots did or didn't do, let's not forget that there are 31 other NFL franchises that might be doing plenty of things that they shouldn't be doing, and that they merely haven't gotten caught.


From PFT
http://profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

[Inkana7]

Upshaw's just insane.

[Kaylore]

::) Gene Upshaw and PFT talking about the Broncos. That's really all you need to know about here.

[BroncoBuff]

Raging paranoid ...


Which former Raider has risen further above his competence level in the real world .... Matt Millen or Gene Upshaw?

Think about it before you answer! It's not an easy choice! ... both are in light years over their heads, but show no signs of being brought back to Earth anytime soon.

[SoCalBronco]

Actually, Shanahan does tape coaches/player meeting rooms (positional meetings etc.), that was known back in the 90s. He has a special room in dove valley where he has viewing screens of all the meeting rooms, which I think he showed Al Pacino when the latter was training for the role of HC in Any Given Sunday a few years back.

[BroncoBuff]

Yes that's true, SoCal, but the funny part is the paranoid way Upshaw said, "you see certain things in the room and know they're not lights," ROFL!

It's total public knowledge - via ESPN and NFL Network - that Shanahan has meeting room monitors, and yet in a fog of paranoia, Upshaw thinks he's Sherlock Holmes and has uncovered "spying" equipment ... that should be embarrassing to him. :~ohyah!:

[peacepipe]

If it's for the sole purpose of "security" I have no issue with it. Now if the players are having a union meeting then there is a big issue with it.

[TDmvp]

Gene Upshaw = classless moron who i have 0 respect for ....

[PatsWin2002]

I think this is why Goodell wanted it all to go away. Cans of worms opening everywhere.

[rovolution]

old news.

Go watch the Shanny "In Their Own Words" segment in the History of the Broncos DVD and Shanny pretty much shows/describes his camera system.

[s0phr0syne]

Not sure I understand how the thread title ("Upshaw cool with Broncos Cheating?") has anything to do with the Broncos monitoring their own players...

[Taco John]

It's been long known that Shanahan has electronic eyes and ears everywhere. This was widely reported when he first joined the team. I don't know if Shanahan openly talks about it, but this has never been a secret.

[elsid13]

If it's for the sole purpose of "security" I have no issue with it. Now if the players are having a union meeting then there is a big issue with it.

The system is used to have historical record of what the coaches & players talk about and how they game plan. Shanahan learned it from his days as the OC of SF, it helps new coaches/players get up to speed in the Broncos system and culture, plus lets pull old ideas to reuse.

[rovolution]

I don't know if Shanahan openly talks about it

oh he does.

The segment in the History of the Broncos DVD i just mentioned.

its actually a really cool feature.

He can change the channels on his TV and they go to the various cameras throughout the building. In the NFL Films segment, it showed him changing the channel to an offensive meeting where Kubes was talking about a particular blitz pickup.

[RhymesayersDU]

Shanahan filmed me in the shower.


It was a dark time in my life.

[Bronx33]

Shanahan filmed me in the shower.


It was a dark time in my life.

But he gathered valuable info........................deal with it!

[Spider]

Gene Upshaw should just shut the **** up ..... Al Davis bugged other teams locker rooms while Gene was there ..... he didnt have a problem with it then

[Spider]

Shanahan filmed me in the shower.


It was a dark time in my life.

so that was you ....... Amazing what you can do with a rubber ducky and soap ;D

[peacepipe]

The system is used to have historical record of what the coaches & players talk about and how they game plan.

"When I'm in Denver, in a meeting with the players at the Broncos' facility, you see certain things in the room and know they're not lights," Upshaw said. "I know management is listeningThat implies a union meeting which has really no bearing on game plans.
Art Modell, who owned the Ravens at the time, confirmed Upshaw's beliefs: ''Some teams are using surveillance equipment in the locker room, yes. But I'd fire the first guy who did that here. No video cameras, no audiotapes, no eavesdropping.''
Cameras in the lockerroom!? What part of the game plan is practiced in the lockerroom.....hopefully not the Qb-center exchange.

[elsid13]

That implies a union meeting which has really no bearing on game plans.

.


The cameras are built into the facility, it doesn't mean they are on!

[elsid13]

so that was you ....... Amazing what you can do with a rubber ducky and soap ;D

Are you hoping those shots end up on EBay for bid???

[Blueflame]

SPYING AN INTERNAL THING, TOO

As the heat continues to rise regarding Spygate II, a reader has forwarded to us a link to a 1999 item from Mike Freeman, then of the New York Times and currently with CBSSports.com, regarding the possibility that the New York Jets (for whom Pats coach Bill Belichick worked at the time), might have been secretly videotaping . . . their own players . . . in the locker room.

The issue came up because an unnamed Jets defensive player entered a small room at the team's practice facility, which contained a bank of video screens. Some of the monitors included images of the locker room.

"A lot of things around here have knocked me for a loop, but this is one of the biggest,'' said the player. ''My first thought was, 'Has the team been spying on us?'''

In Freeman's article, NFLPA Executive Director Gene Upshaw said that he believes 25 percent of the league's teams use hidden cameras in the locker room.

But Upshaw didn't seem to be all that bothered by it.

"When I'm in Denver, in a meeting with the players at the Broncos' facility, you see certain things in the room and know they're not lights," Upshaw said. "I know management is listening. When I'm in Cincinnati, I know Owner Mike Brown is listening. I don't want to say how I know, but I know. But when it comes to this issue of cameras around the players, it's not a big deal to me, because they are there for the security of our players, and obviously the safety of the players is a primary concern for me. I'd rather err on the side of caution, than have some nut come into the locker room and do something.''

But, Gene, are hidden cameras that no one knows about really going to deter a "nut" from doing anything?

Art Modell, who owned the Ravens at the time, confirmed Upshaw's beliefs: ''Some teams are using surveillance equipment in the locker room, yes. But I'd fire the first guy who did that here. No video cameras, no audiotapes, no eavesdropping.''

''This is a sensitive issue,'' Upshaw said. ''I'm sure it will be talked about a lot in the future.''

It hasn't been. But given the current focus on things the Patriots did or didn't do, let's not forget that there are 31 other NFL franchises that might be doing plenty of things that they shouldn't be doing, and that they merely haven't gotten caught.


From PFT
http://profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

How does any of this constitute "cheating"?

[PatsWin2002]

So, let me get this straight....the Broncos cheating record now involves locker room video AND vaseline? Ha!

[Bronx33]

So, let me get this straight....the Broncos cheating record now involves locker room video AND vaseline? Ha!


Just keep on walkin you unfunny SOB! :clown:

[Kaylore]

How does any of this constitute "cheating"?

Because apparently we spy on our own players! You think that's bad? There are tons of crewmen walking around filming practice every day! They even make the other players watch the tape together. When will the insanity ever end?

[BroncoBuff]

I think this is why Goodell wanted it all to go away. Cans of worms opening everywhere.
What?! I thought you were smart, dude, but that post makes you look like a dumbass homer. This is NOT a can of worms!

PAY ATTENTION: Mike Shanahan has cameras set up in every meeting room at Dove Valley so he can watch the meetings from his office. He's showed off the system on NFL Network for godssake .... stop trying to spread the filth of your cheating team on us.

Man, I liked you til you tried this stupid crap ... CAN OF WORMS? Puh-leeease!

[BroncoBuff]

... or were you just kidding?

[bronco militia]

I like how the thread starter took this article to mean that pft.com was out to get the donks.

Taking a quote out of context. florio would be proud.

jesus christ this place gets worse every day

[boltaneer]

Ahh, the CAN OF WORMS defense. We've heard this excuse before. Two wrongs = one right. If everyone else does it, we can too! Yada yada yada...

The flaw in that argument however is that the other 31 teams haven't been caught illegally videotaping their opponents.

I'm enjoying all this controversy going on with Goodell, the P*triots and the government. It's starting the off season with a big bang!

[crazyhorse]

You guys sure get jumpy when the words Donko and cheating are used in the same article.

Although, the Broncos definately shouldn't be taping Union meetings. It's not cheating. But I'm guessing it is unfair labor practice.

Without really taking the time to get to the root of the article, you all scramble to make excuses.

This is a primary reason for your inability to co-exist with rival fans.

Upshaw basically says he could care less. While Bronco fans burn him at the stake for no apparent reason.

Hey, I know....Upshaw is a troll, right folks?:clown:

[NYBronco]

You can go just about anywhere (inside & out) and find a camera attached to a wall, post or ceiling. They are becoming more common at intersections for example.

Your right to privacy is being pushed to the limit. Fortunately for our business a security camera helped us identify some vandals that effectively caused damage to our operations.

[rugbythug]

The union shouldn't have meetings in a room with known video equipment.

[400HZ]

It's been long known that Shanahan has electronic eyes and ears everywhere. This was widely reported when he first joined the team. I don't know if Shanahan openly talks about it, but this has never been a secret.

What exactly does Shanahan do with his secret locker room camera footage? Do I want to know?

[Bronx33]

What exactly does Shanahan do with his secret locker room camera footage? Do I want to know?


Iam sure the locker room cameras (even if they exist) are for security reasons only and i could probably say they are not crotch level in the showers. :~ohyah!:

[400HZ]

So, let me get this straight....the Broncos cheating record now involves locker room video AND vaseline? Ha!

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02142008/news/worldnews/pats_nicaragua/photo05.jpg

[Bronx33]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02142008/news/worldnews/pats_nicaragua/photo05.jpg
We don't even know what the **** this says but thanks anyways

[PatsWin2002]

We don't even know what the **** this says but thanks anyways

Those are the pre-printed Patriots 19-0 shirts that landed in some 3rd world country. I think it's funny.....but it has nothing to do with anything in this thread!

[PatsWin2002]

What?! I thought you were smart, dude, but that post makes you look like a dumbass homer. This is NOT a can of worms!

PAY ATTENTION: Mike Shanahan has cameras set up in every meeting room at Dove Valley so he can watch the meetings from his office. He's showed off the system on NFL Network for godssake .... stop trying to spread the filth of your cheating team on us.

Man, I liked you til you tried this stupid crap ... CAN OF WORMS? Puh-leeease!

I agree that the Broncos thing is a non-story. The only reason it got written is because of Spygate. My point is that people can come forward and accuse another team or former team of whatever they want and it will be news. Even if there is no proof.

I'm sure the commish doesn't like dealing with this and wishes it would go away. I'm sure he doesn't want any more dark secrets of the NFL revealed and hurt their precious image.

[~Crash~]

You guys sure get jumpy when the words Donko and cheating are used in the same article.

Although, the Broncos definately shouldn't be taping Union meetings. It's not cheating. But I'm guessing it is unfair labor practice.

Without really taking the time to get to the root of the article, you all scramble to make excuses.

This is a primary reason for your inability to co-exist with rival fans.

Upshaw basically says he could care less. While Bronco fans burn him at the stake for no apparent reason.

Hey, I know....Upshaw is a troll, right folks?:clown:

LOL you act like that union does not have enough money to have meeting were ever they please . IU was a union member for years we had our own hall ??!? what are people even on a subject they have no clue ?

[Blueflame]

You guys sure get jumpy when the words Donko and cheating are used in the same article.

Although, the Broncos definately shouldn't be taping Union meetings. It's not cheating. But I'm guessing it is unfair labor practice.

Without really taking the time to get to the root of the article, you all scramble to make excuses.

This is a primary reason for your inability to co-exist with rival fans.

Upshaw basically says he could care less. While Bronco fans burn him at the stake for no apparent reason.

Hey, I know....Upshaw is a troll, right folks?:clown:

First off, there's nothing that remotely falls into the category of "cheating" alleged in the article. Having security cameras in the team's own facilities is not the same as breaking league rules by taping opponents in order to gain an advantage.

As to Gene Upshaw, nothing more needs to be said than to note that he's a former Raider who just might not always be totally objective regarding former rival teams.

[crazyhorse]

First off, there's nothing that remotely falls into the category of "cheating" alleged in the article. Having security cameras in the team's own facilities is not the same as breaking league rules by taping opponents in order to gain an advantage.

As to Gene Upshaw, nothing more needs to be said than to note that he's a former Raider who just might not always be totally objective regarding former rival teams.

Donko and Patriots in the same article = Donkos and cheating in the same article. I said nothing about the Broncos being accused of cheating. In fact I stated the opposite.

However, I did mention taping of a Union meeting as an unfair labor practice. That was implied in the article.

[crazyhorse]

LOL you act like that union does not have enough money to have meeting were ever they please . IU was a union member for years we had our own hall ??!? what are people even on a subject they have no clue ?

I didn't act like anything. I simply made a reasonable statement about unfair labor practice. I dont see what money has to do with it.

[bronco militia]

bill walsh started taping meetings when he joined the 49ers...

most teams have been doing the same for years

[400HZ]

Iam sure the locker room cameras (even if they exist) are for security reasons only and i could probably say they are not crotch level in the showers. :~ohyah!:

Maybe somebody had been stealing towels. Henry probably.

[~Crash~]

I didn't act like anything. I simply made a reasonable statement about unfair labor practice. I dont see what money has to do with it.

Now I know why you choose crazyhorse:spit:

If a team allows a Union meeting in a NFL owened facility they should be thankfull . crazy ...horse...since it is the broncos facility Not the players union hall !!!!!!

[~Crash~]

Maybe somebody had been stealing towels. Henry probably.

I wouldlike to understand were you got the idea the broncos are tapeing anyone in the shower ?

[Spider]

Donko and Patriots in the same article = Donkos and cheating in the same article. I said nothing about the Broncos being accused of cheating. In fact I stated the opposite.

However, I did mention taping of a Union meeting as an unfair labor practice. That was implied in the article.
Yikes .... well you made a good post , but **** you anyway

[Blueflame]

Donko and Patriots in the same article = Donkos and cheating in the same article. I said nothing about the Broncos being accused of cheating. In fact I stated the opposite.

However, I did mention taping of a Union meeting as an unfair labor practice. That was implied in the article.

Unless the Broncos organization mandated that all union meetings must be held in their facilities, it would seem to me that the players and union reps could instead opt to hold their meetings in another... unmonitored... venue. If they choose to meet in an area that they are aware has security cameras, then that's not an unfair labor practice; it's ineptitude on the part of the union representative.

[crazyhorse]

Now I know why you choose crazyhorse:spit:

If a team allows a Union meeting in a NFL owened facility they should be thankfull . crazy ...horse...since it is the broncos facility Not the players union hall !!!!!!


The players have rights, reguardless the location.

The Broncos might have the choice of whether they hold the meetings at thier facilities or not. However, they dont have the right to take away the rights of the players.

[crazyhorse]

Unless the Broncos organization mandated that all union meetings must be held in their facilities, it would seem to me that the players and union reps could instead opt to hold their meetings in another... unmonitored... venue. If they choose to meet in an area that they are aware has security cameras, then that's not an unfair labor practice; it's ineptitude on the part of the union representative.

I doubt the Broncos discussed the meetings being taped or not being taped. The players have rights, whether it be at the Bronco facilities, at the Union hall, in the parking lot, or even Shanahans home. There is no situation where the players forfiet thier rights to fair employment.

Even if the player agrees, the player has no right to forfiet his rights to fair labor practice.

[crazyhorse]

Yikes .... well you made a good post , but **** you anyway

Thanks bitch

[Blueflame]

I doubt the Broncos discussed the meetings being taped or not being taped. The players have rights, whether it be at the Bronco facilities, at the Union hall, in the parking lot, or even Shanahans home. There is no situation where the players forfiet thier rights to fair employment.

Even if the player agrees, the player has no right to forfiet his rights to fair labor practice.

In today's world, simply going into a convenience store to buy a bottle of water or a cup of coffee means you're on a security video. Cameras are focused on the entries to every major supermarket you visit for your groceries. Certainly, they're in every bank and airport. Any business transaction you make is most likely on tape. I mean, if you pick your nose while filling your gas tank, there's little doubt that the act was recorded. There are probably security cameras in the Chefs' facilities as well... and the same "unfair labor" issues probably exist for every team in the league if the union meetings are held in the team's facilities. I think article... and you... are making a mountain out of a molehill...

[crazyhorse]

In today's world, simply going into a convenience store to buy a bottle of water or a cup of coffee means you're on a security video. Cameras are focused on the entries to every major supermarket you visit for your groceries. Certainly, they're in every bank and airport. Any business transaction you make is most likely on tape. I mean, if you pick your nose while filling your gas tank, there's little doubt that the act was recorded. There are probably security cameras in the Chefs' facilities as well... and the same "unfair labor" issues probably exist for every team in the league if the union meetings are held in the team's facilities. I think article... and you... are making a mountain out of a molehill...


I wasn't making anything out of it. Simply stating a fact.

The article didn't make much of it either, IMO. If it weren't me that said it, YOU wouldn't be making a mountain of it.

I am however glad to see that you realize it is in fact an unfair labor practice. Being on video in the store is hardly the same thing. But I assume you were just trying to deflect blame a little.

Fact is, if the players and thier reps dont care, why the hell would I?

[Blueflame]

I wasn't making anything out of it. Simply stating a fact.

The article didn't make much of it either, IMO. If it weren't me that said it, YOU wouldn't be making a mountain of it.

I am however glad to see that you realize it is in fact an unfair labor practice. Being on video in the store is hardly the same thing. But I assume you were just trying to deflect blame a little.

Fact is, if the players and thier reps dont care, why the hell would I?

I'm not saying the cameras in the team's facilities are an unfair labor practice; you are. If the players/union representatives don't want the team watching/hearing what's going on at the union meeting, then the rep should arrange to hold the meetings elsewhere; not in a facility that they should be fully aware does have security cameras that are monitored by the team. Unless you can prove that the team has taken away their option of holding the meetings elsewhere, then the contention that it's an unfair labor practice is totally bogus. And it would still be bogus regardless of who expressed it.

[Kaylore]

Blue has got Clumsytroll by the pubes! ROFL!

[Rausch 2.0]

As a fan I could care less.

I'll bet there are some ticked off players though. I'd sure like to be able to take a shower in privacy without worrying about it ending up on youtube later on...

[Rausch 2.0]

In today's world, simply going into a convenience store to buy a bottle of water or a cup of coffee means you're on a security video. Cameras are focused on the entries to every major supermarket you visit for your groceries. Certainly, they're in every bank and airport. Any business transaction you make is most likely on tape. I mean, if you pick your nose while filling your gas tank, there's little doubt that the act was recorded. There are probably security cameras in the Chefs' facilities as well...

I call bull$#it.

No one wants to see a chiefs cheerleader without her berka.

[elsid13]

I call bull$#it.

No one wants to see a chiefs cheerleader without her berka.

OK, that is funny.

[crazyhorse]

I'm not saying the cameras in the team's facilities are an unfair labor practice; you are. If the players/union representatives don't want the team watching/hearing what's going on at the union meeting, then the rep should arrange to hold the meetings elsewhere; not in a facility that they should be fully aware does have security cameras that are monitored by the team. Unless you can prove that the team has taken away their option of holding the meetings elsewhere, then the contention that it's an unfair labor practice is totally bogus. And it would still be bogus regardless of who expressed it.

The players have the right to a meeting place on the premisis with thier rep without being taped.

As I stated before, it doesn't matter what the Union or the Broncos want or don't want. It's a matter of labor law. Read it for yourself. Who gives a **** what they want or dont want?

http://www.philacarpenter.org/35_things.htm

[Blueflame]

The players have the right to a meeting place on the premisis with thier rep without being taped.

As I stated before, it doesn't matter what the Union or the Broncos want or don't want. It's a matter of labor law. Read it for yourself. Who gives a **** what they want or dont want?

http://www.ibew.org/4thdistrict/supervisors_beware.htm

I didn't see any requirement on that list for an employer (team) to provide the union with an unmonitored (not secure) meeting room on the company's property. Again, it's just common sense that if a facility is monitored and the union rep knows that it is, then meet somewhere else.

[crazyhorse]

I didn't see any requirement on that list for an employer (team) to provide the union with an unmonitored (not secure) meeting room on the company's property. Again, it's just common sense that if a facility is monitored and the union rep knows that it is, then meet somewhere else.

Dont matter. You can have 20,000 cameras in the room.

YOU CANT TAPE IT.

You dont get to make your own law, just because it's your building.


Taping a Union meeting is an unfair labor practice.

Just like I said

[Blueflame]

Dont matter. You can have 20,000 cameras in the room.

YOU CANT TAPE IT.

You dont get to make your own law, just because it's your building.


Taping a Union meeting is an unfair labor practice.

Just like I said

And like I said, unless the union is forced to meet in the monitored facility, they have the choice (one that it's the union representative's responsibility to exercise) to go elsewhere. If they choose to meet in a room where they know security cameras are installed rather than opting instead to gather in a neutral location with no cameras, they have no reasonable expectations of privacy. Only an abysmally inept union rep would decide to discuss union matters with a company-monitored camera present. Whether any taping occurs or not, it's much smarter to avoid any possibility of eavesdropping whether deliberate or inadvertent.

[crazyhorse]

And like I said, unless the union is forced to meet in the monitored facility, they have the choice (one that it's the union representative's responsibility to exercise) to go elsewhere. If they choose to meet in a room where they know security cameras are installed rather than opting instead to gather in a neutral location with no cameras, they have no reasonable expectations of privacy. Only an abysmally inept union rep would decide to discuss union matters with a company-monitored camera present. Whether any taping occurs or not, it's much smarter to avoid any possibility of eavesdropping whether deliberate or inadvertent.

I've never said there wouldn't be perhaps a better place to hold a meeting. Why keep using that as your arguement? You said it wasn't unfair labor practice to tape a meeting. I said it was.....then proved it. Now you're parroting that they shouldn't hold it at the Broncos facilities. Who has disagreed with you on that?

So then you finally agree?

Taping a union meeting is an unfair labor practice.

As for what's reasonable, expected, or otherwise, is irrelevant. It's the law.


This will be my final post on the matter. I feel a Donko fan circle jerk coming on.

[Blueflame]

I've never said there wouldn't be perhaps a better place to hold a meeting. Why keep using that as your arguement? You said it wasn't unfair labor practice to tape a meeting. I said it was.....then proved it. Now you're parroting that they shouldn't hold it at the Broncos facilities. Who has disagreed with you on that?

So then you finally agree?

Taping a union meeting is an unfair labor practice.

As for what's reasonable, expected, or otherwise, is irrelevant. It's the law.


This will be my final post on the matter. I feel a Donko fan circle jerk coming on.

No, you haven't proven anything... unless you are in possession of some tape of a union meeting. Otherwise, all we have is an offhand remark attributed to a former Raider in profootballtalk (are they even a credible source? ???) that alleges ""When I'm in Denver, in a meeting with the players at the Broncos' facility, you see certain things in the room and know they're not lights," Upshaw said. "I know management is listening."

First off (if he even really said that) he's admitting his own ineptitude in holding a meeting in the Broncos' (or Bengals', considering the next remark attributed to him) facility if he suspects in any way that "management is listening". A competent union rep who genuinely cared about the players would have moved the meeting to another venue under those circumstances.

[crazyhorse]

No, you haven't proven anything... unless you are in possession of some tape of a union meeting. Otherwise, all we have is an offhand remark attributed to a former Raider in profootballtalk (are they even a credible source? ???) that alleges ""When I'm in Denver, in a meeting with the players at the Broncos' facility, you see certain things in the room and know they're not lights," Upshaw said. "I know management is listening."

First off (if he even really said that) he's admitting his own ineptitude in holding a meeting in the Broncos' (or Bengals', considering the next remark attributed to him) facility if he suspects in any way that "management is listening". A competent union rep who genuinely cared about the players would have moved the meeting to another venue under those circumstances.

I've proven taping a Union meeting is an unfair labor practice. I never said the Broncos had been found doing it. I said if they were doing it, it's unfair. I was right. You were wrong.

You're pretty hard headed.

[BroncoBuff]

I've proven taping a Union meeting is an unfair labor practice. I never said the Broncos had been found doing it. I said if they were doing it, it's unfair. I was right. You were wrong.

You're pretty hard headed.
And you're a liar ... you promised you would stop posting above, and yet here you are again.

Are you just dense ... you don't see how foolishly paranoid Upshaw is? He's not a very bright guy either, cause if I'm the president of a union and I think managamenet is "listening" (that is so funny to actually type - I'm laughing here), then I stop the meeting, call the nearest Marriott, book a conference room, and have the players walk out for the meeting. Upshaw is too stupid, paranoid, overmatched, timid and brain-locked to do any of that. He'd rather just let the meeting go ahead ... :~ohyah!:

[crazyhorse]

And you're a liar ... you promised you would stop posting above, and yet here you are again.

Are you just dense ... you don't see how foolishly paranoid Upshaw is? He's not a very bright guy either, cause if I'm the president of a union and I think managamenet is "listening" (that is so funny to actually type - I'm laughing here), then I stop the meeting, call the nearest Marriott, book a conference room, and have the players walk out for the meeting. Upshaw is too stupid, paranoid, overmatched, timid and brain-locked to do any of that. He'd rather just let the meeting go ahead ... :~ohyah!:

Hey, I agree. Where have I argued differently?

See, this is the circle jerk I was talking about.

I guess I was kidding myself on not posting again. It's difficult to stop posting when no one seems to get it.

You included.

I say taping a Union meeting is unfair labor practice. Then you translate that as me defending Upshaw. Even after I have stated the opposite several times.

How does that make ME dense?

[BroncoBuff]

Hey, I agree. Where have I argued differently?

See, this is the circle jerk I was talking about.

I guess I was kidding myself on not posting again. It's difficult to stop posting when no one seems to get it.

You included.

I say taping a Union meeting is unfair labor practice. Then you translate that as me defending Upshaw. Even after I have stated the opposite several times.

How does that make ME dense?
Yes, management secretly taping a union meeting is an unfair labor practice, and "dense" might've been a bit harsh, but the point is - NOTHING LIKE THAT EVER HAPPENED. The "lights" Paranoid-Gene saw were a well publicized football meeting monitoring system. And your posts on this topic keep open - in your own inimitable belligerent fashion - the insane idea that the Broncos might be using that system to "listen in" on union meetings.

Crazy, just say, "no, it's ridiculous, Upshaw is a nutball. It would be illegal for management to listen in, but obviously that's not happening here." Just say that, and we're cool.

[Blueflame]

I've proven taping a Union meeting is an unfair labor practice. I never said the Broncos had been found doing it. I said if they were doing it, it's unfair. I was right. You were wrong.

You're pretty hard headed.

No one has denied that taping a Union meeting is an unfair labor practice. That's a "given". However...

1. I'm not sure I'll take profootballtalk's word for it that Upshaw really made the remark attributed to him.

2. If Upshaw did make that remark, then he just admitted that he's totally incompetent as a union representative because as Buff said above, if he suspects that management is listening (which is not the same thing as taping, btw), then he should have taken the meeting to another venue.

3. If Upshaw "sees certain things in the room and knows they're not lights"... then what, exactly are they? Did he find out? Apparently not. Hence, isn't it possible that he might have just been paranoid?

I'm more than "pretty hardheaded"... I'm quite opinionated. And I'm not convinced that this article is anything more than an effort to deflect from the Pats' spying scandal.

[crazyhorse]

Yes, management secretly taping a union meeting is an unfair labor practice, and "dense" might've been a bit harsh, but the point is - NOTHING LIKE THAT EVER HAPPENED. The "lights" Paranoid-Gene saw were a well publicized football meeting monitoring system. And your posts on this topic keep open - in your own inimitable belligerent fashion - the insane idea that the Broncos might be using that system to "listen in" on union meetings.

Crazy, just say, "no, it's ridiculous, Upshaw is a nutball. It would be illegal for management to listen in, but obviously that's not happening here." Just say that, and we're cool.

I'll say this.

If Upshaw conducts Union meetings in front of cameras he thinks are on, he's a dumbass.

[crazyhorse]

No one has denied that taping a Union meeting is an unfair labor practice.

Well then you have been argueing with me for no reason. I sure thought you were saying that if the Union has a meeting in a room with cameras, then if they get taped it's not unfair labor practice. Post 48

Perhaps I read it wrong.

I agree with points 1-2-3.

[Blueflame]

Well then you have been argueing with me for no reason. I sure thought you were saying that if the Union has a meeting in a room with cameras, then if they get taped it's not unfair labor practice. Post 48

Perhaps I read it wrong.

I agree with points 1-2-3.

Union meetings, imo, shouldn't be held on company property at all... they should be in a neutral location with a reasonable expectation of privacy (like a hotel conference room as Buff suggested). And if Upshaw had any suspicion whatsoever that the room could be monitored, the meeting should have been immediately adjourned and re-convened in a different place. I really am not convinced that the story has much truth to it at all. And given the timing, it seems like the intent was to "muddy the waters" and soften the impact of all the new allegations of Patriot spying, which has pretty consistently been "justified" by the suggestion that "all the teams do it" or "what we did isn't that much worse than what everyone else does"....