Talent Wise where do you rank Denver.

[NFLBRONCO]

I'm curious what everyone REALLY thinks about our talent VS the rest of the NFL. Since alot of fans rip ownership or feel teams have so so head coaches I'll make these rules

1. Pretend Pat Ted and Mike run all 32 teams to equal out every team
2. Remove Orange Blinders honest eval only.

I'll look forward to reading your views

Thanks

[Sassy]

Our D Sucks.
Our Pass rush sucks.
Our ST sucks...
...and Elam is getting old ;D
Does that cover it?
Oh yeah...and we need another WR and possibly an RB!

[NFLBRONCO]

Our D Sucks.
Our Pass rush sucks.
Our ST sucks...
...and Elam is getting old ;D
Does that cover it?
Oh yeah...and we need another WR and possibly an RB!

Thanks Sassy

No OL upgrades?

[-Slap-]

Parcells was right. You are what your record says you are. A 7-9 record puts us middle of the pack in the NFL.

[ElwayMD]

With the exception of Doom our D-line sucks.
Our LB's need upgrading
Our DB's are strong but if Lynch is gone it will be hard to replace him
Cutler is only going to get better
If Walker stays and stays healthy and Marshall keeps improving we will have a damn good WR corps w/ Stokely in the slot.
Sheff is a good TE that should improve if he stays healthy
Our Oline needs to be retooled or they need more experience to allow Cutler to sit back there and pick teams apart.
RB's should be good if Henry lives up to expectations and doesn't do anything stupid. Young is a good change of pace back as well.
Elam is losing his cannon leg and ST coverage needs to improve.

If you had to rate where we are in regards to the rest of the NFL I would say we are right in the middle as far as talent. Maybe this season coming up we can put that talent to good use and get back in the playoffs.

[Sassy]

Thanks Sassy

No OL upgrades?

I'm being a smartass ;D
Pretty much need an overall upgrade :giggle:

[NFLBRONCO]

Parcells was right. You are what your record says you are. A 7-9 record puts us middle of the pack in the NFL.

I agree but, on paper in AFC where would you put us 1-16?

[fdf]

Our D Sucks.
Our Pass rush sucks.
Our ST sucks...
...and Elam is getting old ;D
Does that cover it?
Oh yeah...and we need another WR and possibly an RB!

Somewhat below average. We play better than our talent because of good coaching and have for years. So year in and year out, we are a 9-7 team with 7-9 or 6-10 talent.

[Spider]

Middle of the pack , but with some bright potential in Doom ,Crowder , Cutler ....

[-Slap-]

I agree but, on paper in AFC where would you put us 1-16?

Second best team in the AFC West. Unfortunately, the gap between us and San Diego is large.

I would say there are four teams in the Conference who are clearly superior: New England, San Diego, Indy and Jacksonville.

Not coincidentally, two power teams and the two best quarterbacks in the league.

I don't believe we can close the gap without some serious philosophical changes on both sides of the football. Taken down to the essence, we need to get bigger and more physical on the offensive line and in the front seven.

Whether that actually happens is anyone's guess.

[-Slap-]

I know this much, I'm sick and tired of being a finesse football team. It's like the franchise has some kind of aversion to powerful athletes on the line or in the front seven.

[Spider]

I know this much, I'm sick and tired of being a finesse football team. It's like the franchise has some kind of aversion to powerful athletes on the line or in the front seven.

well on the + side we have Ian Gold , the most underrated line backer of all time ;D

[Taco John]

I know this much, I'm sick and tired of being a finesse football team. It's like the franchise has some kind of aversion to powerful athletes on the line or in the front seven.



I wouldn't even have a problem with the finesse offensive line if we (blood pressure quickly rising) GOT A REAL GD FULLBACK!

This topic sends my blood pressure through my skull. I love Shanahan, but it's maddening that he's spent so much time on guys like Mike Anderson (bless his heart, he was a warrior, but he wasn't Howard Griffith). The finesse line works great when you can bring in a full back to blow open holes and get to the second level.

And I love Terrell Davis... But none of us knows whether TD would have been TD if he had Mike Anderson blocking for him. He might have been great. Or he might have been stuck behind the line of scrimmage more times than not...

We dropped the power fullback in favor of the two tight end set, and I don't think it's payed the kind of dividends we've needed it to.

[telluride]

Middle to bottom third in the NFL. That's what happens when you have only one good draft in nine years. (And yes, it's too early to tell on this last one.)

Shanny as GM is the ruination of this franchise.

[tsiguy96]

id say about right in the middle. we had the packers and the bears game in the bag, beat the steelers, so we didnt have an abysmal season, but it sure as hell wasnt good.

[montrose]

QB: Top 10 - Cutler has amazing talent but needs seasoning while Ramsey is a young, experienced backup.

RB: In the middle - Henry is talented when (key word) healthy, while Young and Hall have skills but aren't anything extraordinary. No true fullback on the roster.

WR: Top 10 - Marshall is an incredible talent and even with his injuries, Walker still brings a lot to the table. Stokley remains a premier #3 when healthy but not much depth behind those three.

TE: Top 5 - Graham is one the league's most complete TE's, a dominate blocker and adequate receiver while Scheffler is one of the NFL's emerging young pass catchers at the position. Mustard is a solid blocker who did somethings in limited action and Jackson may have the best hands on the team.

OL: Bottom 5 - Nalen can still bring it but age and injury has certainly limited him. Kuper has some potential while not much is known of Harris. Hamilton, Pears and Myers are inconsistent at best. Holland, a journeyman, was the team's most consistent O-Lineman in 07 - not good.

DL: Bottom 10 - Dumervil, Thomas, Crowder and Moss form a young core with talent, but inexperience. Crowder is actually the young group's best all-round DE. Thomas could be special at DT with time. Engelberger is nothing special, nor are waiver-wire pick ups Peterson and Mallard.

LB: Bottom 10 - Williams is a special talent with a rare combination of size and speed. Gold is on the downside of his career while Webster and Winborn are career backups and Green is a ST'er at best.

DB: Top 10 - By far the league's best at the CB position with the NFL's top CB Bailey joined by talented Bly, the up-and-coming Paymah and servicable Foxworth. Lynch doesn't have any value as a coverage man but is still a feared hitter and reliable tackler in the box. Abdullah brings outstanding size and speed to the position but lacks experience. Cargile and Rogers are PS material.

If I had to group some guys of the top of my head:

Great
Bailey

Potential to be great
Marshall
Cutler
Williams

Very Good
Walker
Nalen
Bly
Graham

Potential to be very good
Scheffler
Thomas
Crowder
Abdullah
Paymah

Solid starter
Henry
Holland
Lynch

Potential to be solid starter
Young
R.Harris
Kuper
Dumervil
Moss
Foxworth

Nice backup or role player
Ramsey
Hall
Bell
Sapp
Jackson
Myers
Engelberger
Beck
Winborn
Webster

Average at best
P.Smith
Mustard
Hamilton
Peterson
McKinley
Gold

Fodder
Hackney
Martinez
Jacobs
Cargile
Rogers
Birdine
Snell
Carrington
Mallard
S.Harris
Alexander

Overall, I would say we're in the middle-bottom 3rd of the league. We have some talented young players, but not enough talent at the league's most important positions (OL, DL).

[PaintballCLE]

i think we have a great CB duo but thats doesnt do us any good with the safeties we have. Lynch (although one of my favorite players) can't cover anyone anymore........ look at all the top teams in the league.....what do they all have in common.....great safeties. If we had good safeties with the CB's we have....... we could be a force in the AFC again. A top notch safety, a LB, an OL, and a DL and we could be tops in the league again.

[PaintballCLE]

look at the browns.... they go from bottom of the league to one of the top in the afc by adding joe thomas. We aren't as far away as everyone makes us out ot be

[montrose]

look at the browns.... they go from bottom of the league to one of the top in the afc by adding joe thomas. We aren't as far away as everyone makes us out ot be

Don't forget Eric Steinbach as well. If last night's SB showed anything- it's that games are won in the trenches.

[Kaylore]

On just pure talent?

On offense I put us in the top five. Defense I would say middle of the road. On special teams I would say middle of the road, though they are getting much better and I suspect Special Teams will be pretty good next year provided we can find a punter.

[wabbit]

I know this much, I'm sick and tired of being a finesse football team. It's like the franchise has some kind of aversion to powerful athletes on the line or in the front seven.


Can't argue with this...facts are, the best teams in the NFL field physical, intimidating front lines on Defense & Offense...a possible exception being Indy.

Denver is pretty much stuck in the middle of the pack, but could improve greatly with only a few key, and difficult to land, talent upgrades...real help (read that: not retrieved from a Cleveland Land Fill) at DT, a true FB as TJ suggested, a OLB upgrade (an absolute must) and a really, really good LT...toughest position to fill, I understand that.

Safety will remain a sore spot, or at least, thin for another year, but hey, Rome wasn't built...yada, yada, yada.

Denver can draft an OT @ 12, sign a LB & DT in FA while developing a draft choice or two as depth and audition FB's until the damned low-burn-energy-saving field lights fizzle out.

Perhaps most important...more so than anything else; Mike Shanahan & Ted Sundquist just flat-assed have to get a hell of a lot better at spending Pat Bowlens' money wisely and scouting for the right people...in FA & the draft.

Taking the word of Mike Shanahans' sons' girlfriends roomates' hunch on an unpolished gem worth a grab in the second freaking round...oh, say can you see Lennie Friedman...just can't be the way Denver does business any longer...it just can't be.

[Bronco Billy]

I'm not real high on Gold or Webster, though our production at LBs is directly correlated to our DL, which flat out sucks (save Dumervil). I really hope we have the talent at D-Line, but I'm skeptical at best. We need another WR. I wouldn't be sad if Walker's $8 mil was sent elsewhere and we got a good WR and a playmaker on the D-Line.

[Bronco Billy]

Montrose,

You forgot Louis Green.

[NFLBRONCO]

On just pure talent?

On offense I put us in the top five. Defense I would say middle of the road. On special teams I would say middle of the road, though they are getting much better and I suspect Special Teams will be pretty good next year provided we can find a punter.


I agree we are top 5 between the 20's but, the red zone is where we need more pieces added. Red zone we are middle of the road.

[Bronco Billy]

I agree we are top 5 between the 20's but, the red zone is where we need more pieces added. Red zone we are middle of the road.

Middle of the road is pretty optimistic, IMHO.

[CBF1]

I would be wearing orange colored glasses if I said we are smack dead in the middle (#16) bottom 1/3 is my estimate.

[BowlenBall]

QB: Top 10 - Cutler has amazing talent but needs seasoning while Ramsey is a young, experienced backup.

RB: In the middle - Henry is talented when (key word) healthy, while Young and Hall have skills but aren't anything extraordinary. No true fullback on the roster.

WR: Top 10 - Marshall is an incredible talent and even with his injuries, Walker still brings a lot to the table. Stokley remains a premier #3 when healthy but not much depth behind those three.

TE: Top 5 - Graham is one the league's most complete TE's, a dominate blocker and adequate receiver while Scheffler is one of the NFL's emerging young pass catchers at the position. Mustard is a solid blocker who did somethings in limited action and Jackson may have the best hands on the team.

OL: Bottom 5 - Nalen can still bring it but age and injury has certainly limited him. Kuper has some potential while not much is known of Harris. Hamilton, Pears and Myers are inconsistent at best. Holland, a journeyman, was the team's most consistent O-Lineman in 07 - not good.

DL: Bottom 10 - Dumervil, Thomas, Crowder and Moss form a young core with talent, but inexperience. Crowder is actually the young group's best all-round DE. Thomas could be special at DT with time. Engelberger is nothing special, nor are waiver-wire pick ups Peterson and Mallard.

LB: Bottom 10 - Williams is a special talent with a rare combination of size and speed. Gold is on the downside of his career while Webster and Winborn are career backups and Green is a ST'er at best.

DB: Top 10 - By far the league's best at the CB position with the NFL's top CB Bailey joined by talented Bly, the up-and-coming Paymah and servicable Foxworth. Lynch doesn't have any value as a coverage man but is still a feared hitter and reliable tackler in the box. Abdullah brings outstanding size and speed to the position but lacks experience. Cargile and Rogers are PS material.

If I had to group some guys of the top of my head:

Great
Bailey

Potential to be great
Marshall
Cutler
Williams

Very Good
Walker
Nalen
Bly
Graham

Potential to be very good
Scheffler
Thomas
Crowder
Abdullah
Paymah

Solid starter
Henry
Holland
Lynch

Potential to be solid starter
Young
R.Harris
Kuper
Dumervil
Moss
Foxworth

Nice backup or role player
Ramsey
Hall
Bell
Sapp
Jackson
Myers
Engelberger
Beck
Winborn
Webster

Average at best
P.Smith
Mustard
Hamilton
Peterson
McKinley
Gold

Fodder
Hackney
Martinez
Jacobs
Cargile
Rogers
Birdine
Snell
Carrington
Mallard
S.Harris
Alexander

Overall, I would say we're in the middle-bottom 3rd of the league. We have some talented young players, but not enough talent at the league's most important positions (OL, DL).

Hard to add anything to that --- excellent post, Montrose!

I concur with most of the assessments in this thread -- we're probably 24th or so out of 32 NFL teams in actual talent. Only good coaching got us to 7-9 this year.

[2KBack]

Hmm, I seem to be in the minority here. I actually think this team ahs quite a bit of talent. Unfortunatly it's of the raw variety right now. The new kids on D-line have major talent and great measurables, it's just been too soon to call them major contributors or great players. So the talent is potentially there. The O-line is in the same boat, a lot of first year starters were forced into action, and some held up pretty good. The guards are stacked right now. LT is a question mark. WR's are good to elite. TE's are versatile, and Scheff is growing. DB's are very good.

There's a lot of talent, it just hasn't gelled yet due to inexperience. Of course a few guys could bust, which would change everything. Still, My views aren't effecting the team, so I'd rather side with being optimistic about our young talent, instead of pessimistic because of last seasons performances of a bunch of greenhorns.

[HEAV]

Denver is in the middle of the pack (talent wise)

Adding players at DT,OG,OT,LB are the offseason needs.

Broncos have to gel as a team, no more me and I people, both sides of the ball have to buy into the systems and play with heart.

The Giants won the Super Bowl. The Broncos can also, it's about coming together and wanting to win.

[sirhcyennek81]

Offensively, top 12. Defensively, between 18th and 26th. But more talent or continuity up front on both lines improves the existing talent dramatically.

:Broncos:

[WolfpackGuy]

Between 15-25.

[Old Dude]

In the AFC, I'd rank Denver's overall talent behind the Pats, the Colts, the Chargers, the Jags and the Steelers.

I'd say we're on a par with Cleveland and Houston. Probably just slightly ahead of Cincinnati, Tennessee & Baltimore.

Substantially ahead of Buffalo, the Jets and the Raiders.

Then at the bottom, you have the real dregs: Kansas City and Miami.

Over in the NFC, I think that the Giants, Cowboys, Packers and Seahawks are all ahead of us.

I see Denver on a par with the second-tier NFC teams such as Philly, Tampa, Chicago and Minnesota. Slightly ahead of Washington, Detroit (yes I know they blew us out) Arizona & New Orleans.

And then the dregs over there would be Atlanta, St. Louis, San Francisco and Carolina, not necessarily in that order.

So out of 32 teams, I think Denver's talent is somewhere between 10-16. Not first tier. Probably better than average, but not much. And the Broncos aren't far enough ahead of the teams in the 17-24 range to remain static or take anything for granted. Any one of those "below average" teams could stand up and whip Denver on any given day. (See, I do remember Detroit.)

To move into the top ten, to become a real playoff contender again, will require:

1. Continued positive development by Cutler (probably not a problem, but injuries happen.)

2. Improved talent & development of defensive linemen. Let's be fair. We had a lot of young players there, learning on the job, and it's too soon to declare success or failure regarding last year's D-Line draft. Hopefully, at least one of those kids will turn it up a notch this year. But it will take more than that. The Broncos will probably have to either spend a very high draft pick or dip into free agency again.

3. Other than Elam, our special teams suck hard. For the umpteenth year in a row. Why is this so frigging hard to fix?

4. More cohesion and consistency on the offensive line. (A successful return of Ben Hamilton would be a great help here, but the tackle positions are shaky at best. Someone needs to step up.)

5. The linebackers could definitely be improved, either via the draft or free agency. About the only positive sign there is that DJ seemed to finally get the hang of the MLB spot toward the end of the season. I still think he'd be better on the outside, but what can you do? This is one of the easiest areas to fix because almost any change would be for the positive. It's tempting to spend a high draft pick here for an immediate impact.

6. Not too worried about the secondary. Even if Lynch retires.

7. One way or another, a running back will emerge. You have to wonder though, what a real stud would do for this team. Henry was supposed to be that stud, but that didn't work out so well, and I'm not sure he can be depended on.

8. I'm pleased with the TE and WR situation, even with all the Javon Walker issues. The Broncos don't need to reach here.

[Old Dude]

Gee, who woulda' thought I'd be the biggest optimist?

[dbfan4life]

I think we have tons of talent at the skill positions on offense. Only concern there is if JW's head carries him out of Denver. I agree that we need a true FB. O-line has some holes but maybe not as many as is made out to be - LT for sure. D-line has some young talent but the jury's still out on whether they will amount to jack. Doom is good...the rest...who knows. I'm one who wants Gold gone. Sure he was in position to make a lot of plays last season, but he was either juked out of his socks or just bounced off of guys.

[Rohirrim]

I think the Broncos are maybe two, but probably three years away from SB contention PROVIDED they can do as well in the draft over the next two years as they did last year. Both lines needs to get a whole lot better, especially at LT and DT. Need major help at LB. DJ could be a great WLB, if the Broncos could find a real MLB and SLB. RB help is needed (and there are some good looking ones available in this draft (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83peWVap63c&feature=related). I would also like a "real" FB who can catch the ball and lay the wood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRJczt7YZF4&feature=related) Depending on how the Javon deal plays out, probably need help at WR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9W7nTi4JFQ) Also help at S (Wesley Woodyard) down the road, although I'm higher on Hamza than many here.

[iforgotmypassword]

botton 10, maybe 5

potential were in the top 12, cuz of Cut, Marshall, Young, Thomas, Moss, Crowder

[cutlerfan]

I'm not real high on Gold or Webster, though our production at LBs is directly correlated to our DL, which flat out sucks (save Dumervil). I really hope we have the talent at D-Line, but I'm skeptical at best. We need another WR. I wouldn't be sad if Walker's $8 mil was sent elsewhere and we got a good WR and a playmaker on the D-Line.

I like Winborn's intensity! We need to draft Earl Bennett at WR. He is a big time play maker!

[NFLBRONCO]

In the AFC, I'd rank Denver's overall talent behind the Pats, the Colts, the Chargers, the Jags and the Steelers.

I'd say we're on a par with Cleveland and Houston. Probably just slightly ahead of Cincinnati, Tennessee & Baltimore.

Substantially ahead of Buffalo, the Jets and the Raiders.

Then at the bottom, you have the real dregs: Kansas City and Miami.

Over in the NFC, I think that the Giants, Cowboys, Packers and Seahawks are all ahead of us.

I see Denver on a par with the second-tier NFC teams such as Philly, Tampa, Chicago and Minnesota. Slightly ahead of Washington, Detroit (yes I know they blew us out) Arizona & New Orleans.

And then the dregs over there would be Atlanta, St. Louis, San Francisco and Carolina, not necessarily in that order.

So out of 32 teams, I think Denver's talent is somewhere between 10-16. Not first tier. Probably better than average, but not much. And the Broncos aren't far enough ahead of the teams in the 17-24 range to remain static or take anything for granted. Any one of those "below average" teams could stand up and whip Denver on any given day. (See, I do remember Detroit.)

To move into the top ten, to become a real playoff contender again, will require:

1. Continued positive development by Cutler (probably not a problem, but injuries happen.)

2. Improved talent & development of defensive linemen. Let's be fair. We had a lot of young players there, learning on the job, and it's too soon to declare success or failure regarding last year's D-Line draft. Hopefully, at least one of those kids will turn it up a notch this year. But it will take more than that. The Broncos will probably have to either spend a very high draft pick or dip into free agency again.

3. Other than Elam, our special teams suck hard. For the umpteenth year in a row. Why is this so frigging hard to fix?

4. More cohesion and consistency on the offensive line. (A successful return of Ben Hamilton would be a great help here, but the tackle positions are shaky at best. Someone needs to step up.)

5. The linebackers could definitely be improved, either via the draft or free agency. About the only positive sign there is that DJ seemed to finally get the hang of the MLB spot toward the end of the season. I still think he'd be better on the outside, but what can you do? This is one of the easiest areas to fix because almost any change would be for the positive. It's tempting to spend a high draft pick here for an immediate impact.

6. Not too worried about the secondary. Even if Lynch retires.

7. One way or another, a running back will emerge. You have to wonder though, what a real stud would do for this team. Henry was supposed to be that stud, but that didn't work out so well, and I'm not sure he can be depended on.

8. I'm pleased with the TE and WR situation, even with all the Javon Walker issues. The Broncos don't need to reach here.

Well done post overall but, a few areas I disagree with (Remember I said Pat Ted and Shanny were running and coaching every team just like here) (Since everybody here thinks Shanny is top 5 coach overall I would have figured a few teams based on talent would be ahead of us). I think Cincy is ahead of us talent wise Baltimore is as well (A top tier coach would do wonders in both places). I hate the Raiders with a passion but, if our crew was running the team now I'm not so sure they wouldn't be equal to us right now or very close anyway

[montrose]

Montrose,

You forgot Louis Green.

I'd have to rank Green as a nice backup or role player as he contributes well on special teams.

[Cito Pelon]

Well done post overall but, a few areas I disagree with (Remember I said Pat Ted and Shanny were running and coaching every team just like here) (Since everybody here thinks Shanny is top 5 coach overall I would have figured a few teams based on talent would be ahead of us). I think Cincy is ahead of us talent wise Baltimore is as well (A top tier coach would do wonders in both places). I hate the Raiders with a passion but, if our crew was running the team now I'm not so sure they wouldn't be equal to us right now or very close anyway

WTH, if that's the first criterion ShanaBowlSund would have made any team in the League average. The Denver FO and coaching staff is average.

To be more specific, Denver doesn't have much outstanding talent in any of the four phases.

1) Phase One - Coaching Talent. Shanahan does a great job scoring in the first quarter. After the first quarter, his O coaching deteriorates significantly. Denver has been outscored consistently in the second half of games and in particular in the fourth quarter since 2000. Shanahan just cannot coach the O from behind, and has a hard time protecting and extending leads. On the D side, the lack of turnovers has been a big problem since 2000. Coyer coached the D into a huge TO year in 2005 with a pressure D. The next year, it was "What happened? We went soft and couldn't repeat as Div Champs."

2) Phase Two - Defense. Poor young talent acquisition since 2000. Too much turnover.

3) Phase Three - Offense. Stale and lack of execution. Shanny's O can't execute The Plan, but he'll keep drawing from the same well over and over and over instead of mixing in some trick plays to loosen up the D. I'm sick and tired of this stale O. The O has some solid young players, but the strategy is stale.

4) Phase Four - ST's. Of no impact since 1998, but I see good things on the horizon. Hall I like a lot on KR's, Martinez is a solid PR guy and a good all-around football player, the team needs more like him.

Overall, the talent on the team is middle. There isn't much superb talent on the roster, but with superb coaching the roster with a great draft this year should be able to challenge for a Div Title in 2008. Without a great draft/FA this year - starters drafted or signed at LB, S, OT - and without a big imipact from Moss/Crowder/Thomas, then Denver's Title hopes of any kind will take until 2011 earliest.

It's too bad the O coaching staff can't make at least one phase of the game dominant, and this is a kick in the nuts to Shanny. Shanny is supposed to be an O genius, but his O can't score.