S O T U - O M G

[baja]

BUSH SHOWED JUST HOW OUT OF TOUCH HE IS WITH THE REALITIES OF THE USA AND THE WORLD.

I loved the governor of Kansas' speech. Stunning and real. That and listing to the media afterward gives me cause to think the country is waking up, FINALLY.

It's good I have some hope.

Bush may end up being right after all, he has become the great uniter, this monstrous administration has woken up the country.

Wait until they get aquatinted with Ron Paul's ideas...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

BUSH SHOWED JUST HOW OUT OF TOUCH HE IS WITH THE REALITIES OF THE USA AND THE WORLD.

Again?

[baja]

True, but this was in grand fashion and the wave of media opinion turned on Mr. Bush tonight, it was the proverbial "straw" The media will crucify him from this day on, hide and watch.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

True, but this was in grand fashion and the wave of media opinion turned on Mr. Bush tonight, it was the proverbial "straw" The media will crucify him from this day on, hide and watch.

I hope you're right (even if it is too little/too late.)

You have a stronger stomach than I if you were actually able to watch the speech in its entirety.

[TheDave]

I got a chuckle watching the fiscal conservative finally come out... 7+ years too late.

"If a bill comes to me with pork or earmarks... I'll veto it"

That thought process would've been real helpful back in 2000-2007

[baja]

Hey your talkin about a guy who never vetoed a spending bill here no less.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I got a chuckle watching the fiscal conservative finally come out... 7+ years too late.



I was thinking the same thing when he announced his "economic stimulus" plan.

;)

[baja]

I hope you're right (even if it is too little/too late.)

You have a stronger stomach than I if you were actually able to watch the speech in its entirety.

I just made believe I was watching the 2003 SOTU.

[TheDave]

Hey your talkin about a guy who never vetoed a spending bill here no less.

I know... This numbnuts spent like a drunken sailor for 7 years.

But now he wants a clean bill... What a tool.

[TailgateNut]

Bush is so out of touch one has to wonder if he is just BSing the nation, or if it's actually possible for someone to be so STUPID not to realize were this country stands regarding the economy and the war.
Did he not get the message the NIE clarified regarding Iran? Was he on vacation when that info was released, or did he treat it the same way he handled the info about Iraq?
Then he plays the military card as if he really gave a flying **** about our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. When did he start caring about them? It's a little late to play that card. A little to late to start kissing up to them now that he and his policies have ruined so many lives.
I continue to ask myself how this bafoon was able to not once but twice STEAL the office of president of the US, and if he didn't steal the presidency, where are all the people who voted for him not once, but twice, and why in the hell did they vote for him a second time.
I still believe that we should pursue impeachment proceedings at all costs. He and the Evil one do not deserve another day in the WH.

[Spider]

I didnt even watch ........

[baja]

What was great was the media coverage after. I media found it's balls (well sort of) and they smell blood in the water. They will crucify Bush and Cheney from now on.

[TailgateNut]

The evil look on Cheneys' face was priceless as he looked out and watched the separation of support. The Righties stood up and applauded as the left side of the house sat in protest. This Idiot has done nothing positive to unite our nation, but as a consolation his failed policies will unite us.
Did anyone notice Condi's death stare across the aisle when they did not rise up to applud the fuehrer! F-in hilarious. Why should anyone in their right mind make any effort to show support for this arrogant POS!

[TailgateNut]

What was great was the media coverage after. I media found it's balls (well sort of) and they smell blood in the water. They will crucify Bush and Cheney from now on.


About damn time.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Bush is so out of touch one has to wonder if he is just BSing the nation, or if it's actually possible for someone to be so STUPID not to realize were this country stands regarding the economy and the war.
Did he not get the message the NIE clarified regarding Iran? Was he on vacation when that info was released, or did he treat it the same way he handled the info about Iraq?
Then he plays the military card as if he really gave a flying **** about our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. When did he start caring about them? It's a little late to play that card. A little to late to start kissing up to them now that he and his policies have ruined so many lives.
I continue to ask myself how this bafoon was able to not once but twice STEAL the office of president of the US, and if he didn't steal the presidency, where are all the people who voted for him not once, but twice, and why in the hell did they vote for him a second time.
I still believe that we should pursue impeachment proceedings at all costs. He and the Evil one do not deserve another day in the WH.

+1 :thumbsup:

Whenever the court-appointed pinhead opens his mouth, he validates John Edwards' "Two Americas" reference: One America for Bush and his war profiteering pals, and another America for the rest of us.

http://www.bartcop.com/twilight-zone-monkey.jpg

[baja]

http://www.bartcop.com/twilight-zone-monkey.jpg

I love this one LABF.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What was great was the media coverage after. I media found it's balls (well sort of) and they smell blood in the water. They will crucify Bush and Cheney from now on.

That shouldn't be too difficult...

http://www.bartcop.com/diving-indicators.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The evil look on Cheneys' face was priceless as he looked out and watched the separation of support. The Righties stood up and applauded as the left side of the house sat in protest. This Idiot has done nothing positive to unite our nation, but as a consolation his failed policies will unite us.
Did anyone notice Condi's death stare across the aisle when they did not rise up to applud the fuehrer! F-in hilarious. Why should anyone in their right mind make any effort to show support for this arrogant POS!

I'm surprised the d*ckster didn't tell the dissenters to "go F yourself" or whip out a twelve gauge and start shooting people in the face.

http://www.bartcop.com/cheneyfield.jpg

[TailgateNut]

His comments re: next fridays expiration of his surveilance act were funny to say the least. **** him and the elephant he rode in on.

...and someone should tell him where he can shove his veto pen!

[baja]

The call the speech last night the McCain speech.

[TailgateNut]

Where are all the Denfenders of Bush this morning? Tell me why the hell you forced this asshole on our country.

[TailgateNut]

The call the speech last night the McCain speech.



There's another clueless A-hole. Let's just go from dumb to just as dumb!

[Rigs11]

What a jagoff. My favorite line was when he said that "americans need to balance their budget and so does government".Hey depshet what's our deficit again? ROFL! A surplus by 2012?LOL

[baja]

Well all I can say oratory wise he's no Adolph Hitler.

[baja]

He's had 8 years can someone list Bush's accomplishments for me I can't seem to find them. Thanks

[TailgateNut]

I wish we could install an automatic slap machine at the podium which smacks him upside the head each and everytime he gets that smirky f-ing look. He acted as if he actually did something right when his lemmings stood and applauded.

And WTF was it with all the pats on the back as he was leaving? What has he done to deserve a pat on the back? A kick in the ass, I can understand!

[TailgateNut]

He's had 8 years can someone list Bush's accomplishments for me I can't seem to find them. Thanks


Positive or negative?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

He's had 8 years can someone list Bush's accomplishments for me I can't seem to find them. Thanks

If I had a nickle for everytime I've invited one of Dim Son's supporters to compose such a list, well, I'd be eligible for a really fat Bush tax cut! ;)

http://www.bartcop.com/state-of-the-moron.jpg

[Spider]

He's had 8 years can someone list Bush's accomplishments for me I can't seem to find them. Thanks

I can .....
1. totaly wrecked the economy
2.pissed off everyone that he has met
3. turned Crawford texas into a place someone actually wanted to go to
4. Showed the world that we are serious about oil ..
5. he never disgraced the oval office by getting a blow job
6. He gave uncle Dick something to do .......
7. he has pissed all over the constitution
8. He has made Jimmy Carter and Nixon look good ...
and as a bonus , he exposed McCain for having a black child .........

[baja]

Positive or negative?

Just one positive thing he promised to do on the campaign trail before he was appointed president.

After all he's had 7 years and most of them with a Republican congress there must be something he has accomplished, right?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I can .....
1. totaly wrecked the economy
2.pissed off everyone that he has met
3. turned Crawford texas into a place someone actually wanted to go to
4. Showed the world that we are serious about oil ..
5. he never disgraced the oval office by getting a blow job
6. He gave uncle Dick something to do .......
7. he has pissed all over the constitution
8. He has made Jimmy Carter and Nixon look good ...
and as a bonus , he exposed McCain for having a black child .........

http://www.bartcop.com/bush-econ-chart.gif

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/rchart4.gif

[Rohirrim]

I watched Antiques Roadshow. There was this stupid looking little box with a crudely painted little house on it. Really simple, folk art kind of a thing. They said it had been made by the Shakers or something. The guy puts a value of $120,000 on it. Friggin amazing.

[alkemical]

I watched Antiques Roadshow. There was this stupid looking little box with a crudely painted little house on it. Really simple, folk art kind of a thing. They said it had been made by the Shakers or something. The guy puts a value of $120,000 on it. Friggin amazing.

I just finished reading a PKD novel...lemme see if i can find it....The man in the high castle. One of the interesting things is that.... "History" has a price tag. The japanese are buying "authentic historical" artifacts of the USA. "Historicity" (as PKD noted) has "value".

Good story in some ways.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I watched Antiques Roadshow. There was this stupid looking little box with a crudely painted little house on it. Really simple, folk art kind of a thing. They said it had been made by the Shakers or something. The guy puts a value of $120,000 on it. Friggin amazing.

Hilarious!

http://www.bartcop.com/proud-monkey.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/state-of-titanic.jpg

[TailgateNut]

Come on RIGHTIES, defend your hero. The podium is all yours. IMO we need to fumigate against GOPers.
Permanent traps at every street corner in DC, and open season throughout the country!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Come on RIGHTIES, defend your hero.

Oh, I'm sure they will be along any minute now.

And can you guess how they will "defend" Dubya?

(You know the drill.)

[Rohirrim]

Hey, that's not fair. At least he stopped homos from getting married. And that's the important thing.

[TailgateNut]

...and he protected us from an attack by Saddam! He had developed a way to re-fuel his Scuds in-flight and would have been able to hit our mainland with one of those rust-buckets!
Thanks George! I feel soooo much safer knowing that you and Mr Halliburton are protecting my ass. :spit:

[24champ]

Oh, I'm sure they will be along any minute now.

And can you guess how they will "defend" Dubya?

(You know the drill.)

Defend what? Your bartcop cartoons? Ha!

[TailgateNut]

Defend what? Your bartcop cartoons? Ha!
No your hero and his failure of a "party"!

[Bronco Bob]

I didnt even watch ........

Me neither. I would have just had to buy a new TV after I threw a boot at him.

[Bronco Bob]

Oh, I'm sure they will be along any minute now.

And can you guess how they will "defend" Dubya?

(You know the drill.)

W*gs will be right on cue with his "Yes, but Clinton" deflections.

[Bronco Jamus]

I got a chuckle watching the fiscal conservative finally come out... 7+ years too late.

"If a bill comes to me with pork or earmarks... I'll veto it"

That thought process would've been real helpful back in 2000-2007

He asked Congress to do something about it after the Democrats won Congress in the 07 state of the union. Congress spends the money in this country.

[Bronco Bob]

He asked Congress to do something about it after the Democrats won Congress in the 07 state of the union. Congress spends the money in this country.

Yep, and 6 of those 7 years it was the Republican Congress doing all the spending.
Odd it took the Democrats to make Dubya see the error of his ways.
Just think how frugal Dubya would have been if the Democrats had
taken over Congress in 2001 instead of 2007.

[TailgateNut]

Yep, and 6 of those 7 years it was the Republican Congress doing all the spending.
Odd it took the Democrats to make Dubya see the error of his ways.
Just think how frugal Dubya would have been if the Democrats had
taken over Congress in 2001 instead of 2007.



Needless to say, he sure didn't use his veto pen during those first 6 years. Now he keeps it ready to strike.
If it were a spending issue, it would be admirable, but it a party issue first and foremost!

[Rigs11]

He found the WMD'S and captured bin laden. Oh wait.....Hilarious!

[TheDave]

He asked Congress to do something about it after the Democrats won Congress in the 07 state of the union. Congress spends the money in this country.

Wow thanks for the contribution...

Guess you missed the "Veto" part of my post.

[alkemical]

Wow thanks for the contribution...

Guess you missed the "Veto" part of my post.

He's still hurt we made fun of LT

[TheDave]

He's still hurt we made fun of LT

My bad... I should've known there was another "reason". ;)

[alkemical]

My bad... I should've known there was another "reason". ;)

there's always "another" reason isn't there ;)

[baja]

I watched Antiques Roadshow. There was this stupid looking little box with a crudely painted little house on it. Really simple, folk art kind of a thing. They said it had been made by the Shakers or something. The guy puts a value of $120,000 on it. Friggin amazing.

Soon now that and silver dime will get you a ham sandwich. ;D

[Rigs11]

He asked Congress to do something about it after the Democrats won Congress in the 07 state of the union. Congress spends the money in this country.

What a crock, the republican congress and dumbya went on a spending spree that paris hilton would've been proud of.And so now that the dems barely regain control he asks them to start being fiscally responsible?Hilarious! What about his veto power?

[baja]

Defend what? Your bartcop cartoons? Ha!

Fair enough.

Here's one for ya;

name just one positive thing he accomplished that he promised to do on the campaign trail before he was appointed president.

After all he's had 7 years and most of them with a Republican congress there must be something he has accomplished, right?

[baja]

He asked Congress to do something about it after the Democrats won Congress in the 07 state of the union. Congress spends the money in this country.

Did he use his veto power to nix those pork barrel laden bills?

[DBruleU]

LOL you guys are hilarious.

To see the amount of hatred you guys have for someone is distubing.

[baja]

LOL you guys are hilarious.

To see the amount of hatred you guys have for someone is distubing.

How about answering post # 54 than.

[TheDave]

LOL you guys are hilarious.

To see the amount of hatred you guys have for someone is distubing.

Be honest DB, didn't you find it a little funny watching the fiscal conservative finally emerge after 7+ years of not vetoeing a single pork laden spending bill? I promise we won't take your republican card away...;)

[Bronco Jamus]

Yep, and 6 of those 7 years it was the Republican Congress doing all the spending.
Odd it took the Democrats to make Dubya see the error of his ways.
Just think how frugal Dubya would have been if the Democrats had
taken over Congress in 2001 instead of 2007.

I thought it was just a coincidence. :)

[Bronco Jamus]

Wow thanks for the contribution...

Guess you missed the "Veto" part of my post.

I didn't say anything negative to you.

[Bronco Jamus]

He's still hurt we made fun of LT

If you think it's okay to make fun of an injured athlete that has done nothing but his best, then it's really a reflection on your character.

[alkemical]

If you think it's okay to make fun of an injured athlete that has done nothing but his best, then it's really a reflection on your character.

Go back to listening to some dashboard confessional.

[Bronco Jamus]

Go back to listening to some dashboard confessional.

I apologize. I don't understand what that means.

[TailgateNut]

How about answering post # 54 than.
Because I have DBruleU on Ignore, I hope you don't mind me using your quote as a launching platform.

DB, please do answer the question. What has your hero done to earn his paycheck. Why shouldn't he have been fired a LONG time ago. Why should he be booted out of the WH?

What has he done for you to earn your respect and admiration?

[24champ]

LOL you guys are hilarious.

To see the amount of hatred you guys have for someone is distubing.

IMPEACH BUSH!!!!! OH NOES! Hilarious!

[baja]

I guess no answers forthcoming to post #54.

All I'm asking for is to name one thing Bush has accomplished that he promised in his campaign, just one....

[TailgateNut]

I don't understand


You must be a republican.

[TailgateNut]

IMPEACH BUSH!!!!! OH NOES! Hilarious!
That's your response?

Come on, stick up for your party! I patiently waiting for a long list of accomplishments and one GOOD reason why he shouldn't be impeached.

[24champ]

Fair enough.

Here's one for ya;

One thing? Alright he has said that he will remain steadfast and won't budge on the issue Iraq, I think he has done a pretty good job on that front. Yes mistakes were made in the run-up to the war, but if Iraq can stand on its own two feet and be an ally in the future, then it will be worth it.


If that isn't enough, he during his terms he was able to appoint 2 supreme court justices that lean towards the conservative aisle. Though he wasn't able to appoint as many judges as he wanted, thanks to the "Gang of 14."

Honestly, Bush has done some things I didn't like (Illegal-Immigration, Spending etc.) however he deserves some credit for keeping this country safe after 9/11/ AND I know that just drives the Liberals up the wall. Can't blame them because they failed to impeach him, and failed to "bring the troops home."

[24champ]

That's your response?

Come on, stick up for your party! I patiently waiting for a long list of accomplishments and one GOOD reason why he shouldn't be impeached.

Tell me why your crowd cannot Impeach Bush obviously since you make it sound SO EASY, why aren't you guys able to do it? What's holding you back? You only have a couple hundred days left! Hurry up! ROFL!

[Rohirrim]

LOL you guys are hilarious.

To see the amount of hatred you guys have for someone is distubing.

I love my country. Why shouldn't I hate the man who has done more to destroy it, in my lifetime, than any other enemy?

[TailgateNut]

One thing? Alright he has said that he will remain steadfast and won't budge on the issue Iraq, I think he has done a pretty good job on that front. Yes mistakes were made in the run-up to the war, but if Iraq can stand on its own two feet and be an ally in the future, then it will be worth it.


If that isn't enough, he during his terms he was able to appoint 2 supreme court justices that lean towards the conservative aisle. Though he wasn't able to appoint as many judges as he wanted, thanks to the "Gang of 14."

Honestly, Bush has done some things I didn't like (Illegal-Immigration, Spending etc.) however he deserves some credit for keeping this country safe after 9/11/ AND I know that just drives the Liberals up the wall. Can't blame them because they failed to impeach him, and failed to "bring the troops home."


WE SAID POSITIVE! ...and don't jerk me off with the "we haven't been attacked since 9/11 horse****!


We will bring the troops home where they belong!

[24champ]

I love my country. Why shouldn't I hate the man who has done more to destroy it, in my lifetime, than any other enemy?

This is what I don't understand, you have people that hate Bush more than they hate OBL. To me that's just screwed up thinking.

[TailgateNut]

I love my country. Why shouldn't I hate the man who has done more to destroy it, in my lifetime, than any other enemy?

Well said! I'm with ya!

[24champ]

WE SAID POSITIVE! ...and don't jerk me off with the "we haven't been attacked since 9/11 horse****!


We will bring the troops home where they belong!


Like I said I know it just drives you up the wall because you can't get either agenda completed. If I was a liberal, I'd be pissed as hell too, especially at Dingy Harry and Pelosi.

[TailgateNut]

This is what I don't understand, you have people that hate Bush more than they hate OBL. To me that's just screwed up thinking.

How did you manage to pull that out of your ass?

[W*GS]

I love my country. Why shouldn't I hate the man who has done more to destroy it, in my lifetime, than any other enemy?

That's silly hyperbole.

[TailgateNut]

Like I said I know it just drives you up the wall because you can't get either agenda completed. If I was a liberal, I'd be pissed as hell too, especially at Dingy Harry and Pelosi.


For you to feel good about this, is just plain UNPATRIOTIC. You'ld rather see our troops dying in a war based on false pretenses than to see your party embarrased. You are messed up in the head.

[Rohirrim]

This is what I don't understand, you have people that hate Bush more than they hate OBL. To me that's just screwed up thinking.

If we had a president who was worth half a ****, OBL would already be dead, wouldn't he? Actually, if we had a president worth half a ****, 911 would have never happened. Instead, we got a guy whose only concern was to make his friends money and take more vacations than any president in history. You know why Bush couldn't listen to Richard Clarke's warnings? Because he was too busy preparing giant government subsidies for his oil buddies. I don't understand people who support Bush no matter what kind of damage he does to our country, how many lies he tells, or how many he gets killed through his stubbornness, arrogance and stupidity.

[Rohirrim]

That's silly hyperbole.

Really? You can name somebody who has done worse?

[24champ]

For you to feel good about this, is just plain UNPATRIOTIC. You'ld rather see our troops dying in a war based on false pretenses than to see your party embarrased. You are messed up in the head.

Ah yes, I am unpatriotic. Brilliant Comeback nut. ::)

I'd rather SEE OUR TROOPS WIN and SUCCEED.

[Rohirrim]

Ah yes, I am unpatriotic. Brilliant Comeback nut. ::)

I'd rather SEE OUR TROOPS WIN and SUCCEED.

Succeed at what, exactly?

[TailgateNut]

Ah yes, I am unpatriotic. Brilliant Comeback nut. ::)

I'd rather SEE OUR TROOPS WIN and SUCCEED.

Well, then carry your young ass down to the recruiter and replace one of the soldiers who doesn't "just talk the talk"!

[TailgateNut]

Oh Champ, I forgot: don't give me the I support them with my wallet garbage.

So does the rest of the nation, and their children will be paying, and their grandchildren will be paying.

[Bronco Bob]

Ah yes, I am unpatriotic. Brilliant Comeback nut. ::)

I'd rather SEE OUR TROOPS WIN and SUCCEED.

Define win. What goal will have to be met to consider the war won?
Oh, that's right setting goals is the equivalent of waving the
white surrender flag.

[24champ]

Well, then carry your young ass down to the recruiter and replace one of the soldiers who doesn't "just talk the talk"!

I already have Nut, can't join the Military...

[Bronco Jamus]

You must be a republican.

If you must know, I am a registered independent.

[TailgateNut]

I already have Nut, can't join the Military...
What's the ailment? No Balls, or too FOS? Or is it just because your a spineless Republican who loves to send others to war?

[Bronco Jamus]

That's silly hyperbole.

I agree. No one man or woman has put us where we are. However, the Bush Administration has made a great deal of bad decisions. I think we'll all be better off once he's left office and the general perception changes in this country. No matter who wins in the upcoming election, it is going to be tough. We need to stop spending money in this country.

[24champ]

What's the ailment? No Balls, or too FOS? Or is it just because your a spineless Republican who loves to send others to war?

Disability...but if your gonna keep up these personal attacks. Lets meet up...it's getting really old Nut.

[TailgateNut]

Disability...but if your gonna keep up these personal attacks. Lets meet up...it's getting really old Nut.


You always know where I am, and by the time the season roll around things will be f-ing heated. I can guarantee that.

What's getting old is the cheerleading by the righties, but they don't have the balls to fight for their hero. It's not the same when the only damage done is to your wallet. In fact, the soldiers fighting are also going to pay for this BS war. Pretty easy sitting back not having to worry about losing life or limbs.

RE: your disability. They are currently sending GI's with severe disabilties back to Iraq and when I served and was "bolted" back together after my first crash, I served another 4 years.

Where there's a will, there's a way!

[24champ]

You always know where I am, and by the time the season roll around things will be f-ing heated. I can guarantee that.

What's getting old is the cheerleading by the righties, but they don't have the balls to fight for their hero. It's not the same when the only damage done is to your wallet. In fact, the soldiers fighting are also going to pay for this BS war. Pretty easy sitting back not having to worry about losing life or limbs.

RE: your disability. They are currently sending GI's with severe disabilties back to Iraq and when I served and was "bolted" back together after my first crash, I served another 4 years.

Where there's a will, there's a way!

I understand where you stand on the issues Nut, I also appreciate your service to the country. However I will not stand for personal attacks where you call me unpatriotic and such is frankly HORSE****. I was approached by a recruiter in High School and a few times in College. By the time the recruiter saw my disability, he walked away. There's nothing I can do about it was born with it. You had your surgeries, there is no surgery for my disability. Honestly your comments towards me about it were out of line and you should apologize. Otherwise put me on ignore and don't speak to me again.

[baja]

This is what I don't understand, you have people that hate Bush more than they hate OBL. To me that's just screwed up thinking.

Who is OBL? Oh ya he is the guy that caused 9/11 to happen and the same guy Bush is not interested in catching instead he used the 9/11 event to attack Iraq.

Now there is an accomplishment he can be proud of...

[Rohirrim]

I agree. No one man or woman has put us where we are. However, the Bush Administration has made a great deal of bad decisions. I think we'll all be better off once he's left office and the general perception changes in this country. No matter who wins in the upcoming election, it is going to be tough. We need to stop spending money in this country.

You can't pick and choose after the fact. Bush chose to make himself the figurehead of the neocon movement. He chose to make himself the flag-bearer of the Wolfowitz Doctrine and PNAC. He hand-picked a cabal of incompetents to staff his government. He chose to lead by the methodology of division and destructive politics. He chose to use 911 to manipulate this country into an unnecessary and destructive war that has emaciated our armed forces and bankrupted our country. The captain is responsible for the ship. Period.

[baja]

Really? You can name somebody who has done worse?

That is a fair question is it not Mr Hyperbole Wags?

[24champ]

Who is OBL? Oh ya he is the guy that caused 9/11 to happen and the same guy Bush is not interested in catching instead he used the 9/11 event to attack Iraq.

Now there is an accomplishment he can be proud of...

OBL ordered 9/11 to happen, and also many other attacks around the world since then. I do agree Bush should have killed OBL but the military has done well enough to kill a lot of the Senior members of Al-Queda. I think it was wrong to take the focus off of Afghanistan and put it on Iraq. With Iraq, we could have waited until we finished our business in Afghanistan.

[W*GS]

Really? You can name somebody who has done worse?

FDR.

[Rohirrim]

FDR.

What part of ending The Depression and winning WWII didn't you like? Ha!

Anyway, he wasn't during my lifetime.

[24champ]

FDR.

Oh Snap!

[TailgateNut]

I understand where you stand on the issues Nut, I also appreciate your service to the country. However I will not stand for personal attacks where you call me unpatriotic and such is frankly HORSE****. I was approached by a recruiter in High School and a few times in College. By the time the recruiter saw my disability, he walked away. There's nothing I can do about it was born with it. You had your surgeries, there is no surgery for my disability. Honestly your comments towards me about it were out of line and you should apologize. Otherwise put me on ignore and don't speak to me again.

I bet if you try again, they'll accept you with open arms, and there's no waiting line!

They are currently sending crooks, criminals and crippled to Iraq. That is a fact and not a low blow about your "disability". They have lowered their standards to fill the ranks "thanks" to Bush ruining our military!

[TailgateNut]

OBL ordered 9/11 to happen, and also many other attacks around the world since then. I do agree Bush should have killed OBL but the military has done well enough to kill a lot of the Senior members of Al-Queda. I think it was wrong to take the focus off of Afghanistan and put it on Iraq. With Iraq, we could have waited until we finished our business in Afghanistan.
Holy ****ing ****!

You didn't just say "but the military has done well enough to kill a lot of the Senior members of Al-Queda", Did you?

The military does only what it is ordered to do, and unless it is not provided with the tools and intelligence it succeeds.

The issue with Bin Laden is that Bush needs his little "threat buddy" and that's why he "lost interest" in capturing him or killing him.

[baja]

OBL ordered 9/11 to happen, and also many other attacks around the world since then. I do agree Bush should have killed OBL but the military has done well enough to kill a lot of the Senior members of Al-Queda. I think it was wrong to take the focus off of Afghanistan and put it on Iraq. With Iraq, we could have waited until we finished our business in Afghanistan.

The only reason we did not wait is because a few more weeks of inspections would have clearly show there were no WMD and Bush would have lost his excuse to attack.

[Spider]

FDR.

LOL .. I always knew you was slow , I just didnt know how slow .......

[Spider]

I already have Nut, can't join the Military...

you must be ****ed up , hell I damn near slipped in and I was wanted for attempted murder ........In Fact I made it all the way to MEPS before they nabed me

[Spider]

Believe it or not , I didnt always have the people skills I do now , when I was younger I was hell on 2 feet literaly ....... But now I am old , and learned I had to develope people skills

[TheDave]

Believe it or not , I didnt always have the people skills I do now , when I was younger I was hell on 2 feet literaly ....... But now I am old , and learned I had to develope people skills

I don't care what anyone says... You sir, have mad people skills :thumbs:

[Spider]

I don't care what anyone says... You sir, have mad people skills :thumbs:

I work hard at it ;D

[TheDave]

I work hard at it ;D

When I finally make my presidential run... I want you as my PR manager Hilarious!

[baja]

Will you be advocating a return to the gold standard and legalizing marriage between sheep and men.

[Spider]

When I finally make my presidential run... I want you as my PR manager Hilarious!

I will accept the Job ......;D
I will also do the white house briefings .......
David Gregory : Mr Spider ,we heard the Dave wants to invade Oakland and get Al davis ?
Spider: Yeah so whats your point ? Getting Al Davis is a good thing you lame brain bastard .......

[baja]

Yes I see what you mean about the mad people skills..

[TheDave]

Will you be advocating a return to the gold standard and legalizing marriage between sheep and men.

I would push for a constitutional amendment legalizing "Farm Love" way, way, way before i would even allow a discussion on the gold standard... But that's just me ;D

[W*GS]

What part of ending The Depression

Snort. FDR exacerbated the depression, and set us on the path of unsustainable and ultimately economically ruinous transfers of wealth via State coercion.

and winning WWII didn't you like?

On the other hand, he (and Churchill) were bullied by Stalin into letting ol' Joe enslave eastern Europe. They also signed the death warrants of hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs by standing by while they were forcibly repatriated to the USSR.

There's also the matter of the internment of Americans in camps. That makes Guantanamo look paltry in comparison.

FDR also sold our economic soul to the Saudis.

Anyway, he wasn't during my lifetime.

So?

Yet, amazingly, we managed to survive FDR, and we'll survive Bush. I'm not so down on the US that I believe that one man, even the President, can so wreck the country ("destroy" was the word someone used) that it cannot be fixed.

Why do you believe that?

[Spider]

Snort. FDR exacerbated the depression, and set us on the path of unsustainable and ultimately economically ruinous transfers of wealth via State coercion.



On the other hand, he (and Churchill) were bullied by Stalin into letting ol' Joe enslave eastern Europe. They also signed the death warrants of hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs by standing by while they were forcibly repatriated to the USSR.

There's also the matter of the internment of Americans in camps. That makes Guantanamo look paltry in comparison.

FDR also sold our economic soul to the Saudis.



So?

Yet, amazingly, we managed to survive FDR, and we'll survive Bush. I'm not so down on the US that I believe that one man, even the President, can so wreck the country ("destroy" was the word someone used) that it cannot be fixed.

Why do you believe that?
Just goes to show , you dont have to know history to be a weather man ......

[Bronco Jamus]

You can't pick and choose after the fact. Bush chose to make himself the figurehead of the neocon movement. He chose to make himself the flag-bearer of the Wolfowitz Doctrine and PNAC. He hand-picked a cabal of incompetents to staff his government. He chose to lead by the methodology of division and destructive politics. He chose to use 911 to manipulate this country into an unnecessary and destructive war that has emaciated our armed forces and bankrupted our country. The captain is responsible for the ship. Period.

You neglect Congress. Congress votes for the war and to fund. Congress also has oversight on cabinet posts. He is the Captain of the ship, but he is not the only one on deck.

[Bronco Jamus]

Just goes to show , you dont have to know history to be a weather man ......

Actually much of what he posted is true. FDR and Lincoln are both well remembered, but they did things that were terrible, and in some cases worse than Bush.

[Bronco Bob]

You neglect Congress. Congress votes for the war and to fund. Congress also has oversight on cabinet posts. He is the Captain of the ship, but he is not the only one on deck.

Don't look now, but for the first 6 years Bush had a Republican rubber stamp Congress.
He was the captain of the ship, and Congress was his swab jockeys.

[Spider]

Actually much of what he posted is true. FDR and Lincoln are both well remembered, but they did things that were terrible, and in some cases worse than Bush.

Much ? He spun , nothing new for W*GS , but he spun the New deal and the Saudi Arabia part .... Hell My Grandpa was around the concentration camp Near Kersey Colorado ......... not only where Japanese were locked up , but you had Itailians and Germans locked up also , that was bad , but W*GS is talking out of his ass about the New Deal cause his punk ass mouth knows better

[Spider]

Don't look now, but for the first 6 years Bush had a Republican rubber stamp Congress.
He was the captain of the ship, and Congress was his swab jockeys.

Dont be trippin up Jamus up with facts ...... He thinks he has a point

[Spider]

Actually much of what he posted is true. FDR and Lincoln are both well remembered, but they did things that were terrible, and in some cases worse than Bush.

My Grandmother who is still alive , will tell you all about the great depression and how ****ed we was as a country , hell she still has "Sugar Stamps" from that era , the New Deal of FDR spread like wild fire , brought empolyment , brought us back from the verge of being a 3 world country ........ So I will tell you if you agree with W*GS , then you dont know your ass from a hole in the ground ....

[W*GS]

Don't dare point out the unsavory things FDR did to Spider - he'll sic his gramma on ya!

[Bronco Jamus]

Don't look now, but for the first 6 years Bush had a Republican rubber stamp Congress.
He was the captain of the ship, and Congress was his swab jockeys.

It doesn't matter which side of the aisle, they are both terrible. The point is, no one person is responsible for where we are today. Check out who voted for what and I'll be more than happen to talk about it. That Patriot Act and the funding of the Iraqi war were voted by an overwhelming majority in Congress by both Republicans and Democrats.

[Spider]

Don't dare point out the unsavory things FDR did to Spider - he'll sic his gramma on ya!

Sounds like you want a date ........

[Bronco Jamus]

My Grandmother who is still alive , will tell you all about the great depression and how ****ed we was as a country , hell she still has "Sugar Stamps" from that era , the New Deal of FDR spread like wild fire , brought empolyment , brought us back from the verge of being a 3 world country ........ So I will tell you if you agree with W*GS , then you dont know your ass from a hole in the ground ....

So was mine, and those FDR social programs were good for a time, but in the wake and from a longitudinal prespective they have laid the foundation for the government spending we see today. Which I think you would agree is out of control.

[TailgateNut]

It doesn't matter which side of the aisle, they are both terrible. The point is, no one person is responsible for where we are today. Check out who voted for what and I'll be more than happen to talk about it. That Patriot Act and the funding of the Iraqi war were voted by an overwhelming majority in Congress by both Republicans and Democrats.

They were fed the same **** sandwich by Bush as the general public. Fear/threat/danger/wmd's/blah,blah,blah.
That's why they supported the lying sack of ****, and voted to go after Osama and Sadam.


WTF is it with all of these Garcia Bronco clones appearing out of the woodwork.

[Spider]

So was mine, and those FDR social programs were good for a time, but in the wake and from a longitudinal prespective they have laid the foundation for the government spending we see today. Which I think you would agree is out of control.

the only out of control spending is Iraqi war , we had **** pretty well in hand before then ......

[Rigs11]

So?

Yet, amazingly, we managed to survive FDR, and we'll survive Bush. I'm not so down on the US that I believe that one man, even the President, can so wreck the country ("destroy" was the word someone used) that it cannot be fixed.

Why do you believe that?


Yeah and yet you go apeshet with your chavez threads. Hey wigged will we survive chavez, you know the president of ANOTHER country?Ha!

[Bronco Jamus]

the only out of control spending is Iraqi war , we had **** pretty well in hand before then ......

Social Programs have given the Congress access to funds that they would not otherwise have. They are inturn using these on pork barrel projects and earmarks nad not using them where they belong. We have to stop taxing and we have to stop spending.

[Spider]

Social Programs have given the Congress access to funds that they would not otherwise have. They are inturn using these on pork barrel projects and earmarks nad not using them where they belong. We have to stop taxing and we have to stop spending.

you are wasting your energy , sell that bull**** to someone else ..........Leave me out of it

[Spider]

Social Programs were just fine ..... sell your Neo zCon bull**** to someone else

[baja]

They were fed the same **** sandwich by Bush as the general public. Fear/threat/danger/wmd's/blah,blah,blah.
That's why they supported the lying sack of ****, and voted to go after Osama and Sadam.


WTF is it with all of these Garcia Bronco clones appearing out of the woodwork.

L O L I thought the same thing.

[Bronco Jamus]

Social Programs were just fine ..... sell your Neo zCon bull**** to someone else

I hate to break this to you. That's not new conservative, which is what neo-con means. It's just conservative. Who knows how to spend your money better than you? You or the Government? And please don't get offended, because I am not infering that you are stupid.

[baja]

I hate to break this to you. That's not new conservative, which is what neo-con means. It's just conservative. Who knows how to spend your money better than you? You or the Government? And please don't get offended, because I am not infering that you are stupid.

This sounds a lot like garcia

[Spider]

I hate to break this to you. That's not new conservative, which is what neo-con means. It's just conservative. Who knows how to spend your money better than you? You or the Government? And please don't get offended, because I am not infering that you are stupid.

I doubt without the help of google you know the difference . Dont give me that Bull**** about spending my money , I want ROADS , I want Police Departments, I WANT A ****ING MILITARY , I want fire dept, I want the poor to be helped , I dont want people have ot go to a church and believe in some dead guy to get help , my ****ing dollars dont go that far ..... Here is what you want , you want a weak government , you want us to be corrupt , you want the rich to thrive , you want the working man scrapoing to get by , while CEO 's make billions ...... I told you once before dont sell your neo con bull**** to me ...... you want ****ing handouts , you want all of these things that your tax dollars go for , but you dont want ot pay , you want a free ride ... I pay more in ****ing taxes in a week then you probably pay in a month .you dont see me bitching about taxes .......

[TailgateNut]

This sounds a lot like garcia


First we deal with GB, he disappears, then Dead in the Head appears, he's a goner and guess what? Now we have Jamus.

I always he was a couple of rocks shy of a rockpile!

[W*GS]

I wonder if Spider pays every single penny in taxes he's legally obligated to pay, happily and without complaint.

Heck, he probably sends in extra to the IRS!

[Spider]

as a matter of fact , I would be tickled pink if my Tax dollars went to Nuclear power .....

[Bronco Jamus]

Do you guys mean Michael Garcia the Colorado legislature?

[Spider]

I wonder if Spider pays every single penny in taxes he's legally obligated to pay, happily and without complaint.

Heck, he probably sends in extra to the IRS!

as a matter of fact I do it is called IFTA tax . look it up .......

[Spider]

Do you guys mean Michael Garcia the Colorado legislature?

No they mean some other dumb ass that used to post here .Sounds alot like you

[Spider]

LOL W*GS is about to get bit again .... you want to play about paying Taxes W*GS .... ROFL!.... I clowned your ass when you tried to compare your Car insurence to my Truck insurence , you will get clowned on this issue again ....

[24champ]

I doubt without the help of google you know the difference . Dont give me that Bull**** about spending my money , I want ROADS , I want Police Departments, I WANT A ****ING MILITARY , I want fire dept, I want the poor to be helped , I dont want people have ot go to a church and believe in some dead guy to get help , my ****ing dollars dont go that far ..... Here is what you want , you want a weak government , you want us to be corrupt , you want the rich to thrive , you want the working man scrapoing to get by , while CEO 's make billions ...... I told you once before dont sell your neo con bull**** to me ...... you want ****ing handouts , you want all of these things that your tax dollars go for , but you dont want ot pay , you want a free ride ... I pay more in ****ing taxes in a week then you probably pay in a month .you dont see me b****ing about taxes .......

When did you go John Edwards on us?ROFL!

[Bronco Jamus]

I doubt without the help of google you know the difference . Dont give me that Bull**** about spending my money , I want ROADS , I want Police Departments, I WANT A ****ING MILITARY , I want fire dept, I want the poor to be helped , I dont want people have ot go to a church and believe in some dead guy to get help , my ****ing dollars dont go that far ..... Here is what you want , you want a weak government , you want us to be corrupt , you want the rich to thrive , you want the working man scrapoing to get by , while CEO 's make billions ...... I told you once before dont sell your neo con bull**** to me ...... you want ****ing handouts , you want all of these things that your tax dollars go for , but you dont want ot pay , you want a free ride ... I pay more in ****ing taxes in a week then you probably pay in a month .you dont see me b****ing about taxes .......

Most roads, fire, and police departments are funded at the state and local level. And many fire departments are volunteer. Your federal dollars don't really end up there. The problem with the federal government controlling our money is that we cannot account on how it's spent. This is why I favor a weakened Federal Government. I do favor a stronger local government. By local, I would define that as state government as well. Social program are much more tolerable at this level because there is greater control on how the money is spent. Our framers designed it this way.


Since you introduced God into the discussion:

As a Christian, I have spent much of my time helping others, and they are always grateful. We don't require them to believe anything. Because I believe in God and because they are Gods children in my eyes, I know I can believe in them no matter what their faith might be.

[Spider]

Most roads, fire, and police departments are funded at the state and local level. And many fire departments are volulenteer. Your federal dollar don't really end up there. The problem with the federal government controlling our money is that we cannot account on how it's spent. This is why I favor a weakened Federal Governemnt. I do favor a stronger local governemnt. By local, I would define that as state government as well. Social program are much more tolerable at this level because there is greater control on how the money is spent. Our framers designed it this way. LOL what worries me is you believe this **** ..... Look up federal funding for the Highways......


Since you introduced God into the discussion:

As a Christian, I have spent much of my time helping others, and they are always grateful. We don't require them to believe anything. Because I believe in God and because they are Gods children in my eyes, I know I can believe in them no matter what their faith might be.

Yeah . uh huh ..... Sure thing ...

[Spider]

When did you go John Edwards on us?ROFL!

LOL I like Edwards , I just wish he wasnt such a candy ass

[Spider]

Well W*GS ........

[baja]

Spider you have the best bull shiit meter on the board. ;D

With the exception of Ron paul, you are all wet on that one.

[Bronco Jamus]

LOL what worries me is you believe this **** ..... Look up federal funding for the Highways......




Yeah . uh huh ..... Sure thing ...

Those aren't the only roads. There is more asphault in cities and towns collectively compared to federal highways. So wouldn't you think that high figure is suspect?

[Spider]

Spider you have the best bull shiit meter on the board. ;D

With the exception of Ron paul, you are all wet on that one.

No .....Edwards is a candy ass

[TheDave]

First we deal with GB, he disappears, then Dead in the Head appears, he's a goner and guess what? Now we have Jamus.

I always he was a couple of rocks shy of a rockpile!

This place sucks...

[Spider]

Those aren't the only roads. There is more asphault in cities and towns collectively compared to federal highways. So wouldn't you think that high figure is suspect?

The only ones I give a **** about .......

[baja]

No .....Edwards is a candy ass

I was talking about this post;

Quote:
Since you introduced God into the discussion:

As a Christian, I have spent much of my time helping others, and they are always grateful. We don't require them to believe anything. Because I believe in God and because they are Gods children in my eyes, I know I can believe in them no matter what their faith might be.

Yeah . uh huh ..... Sure thing ...
__________________

[Spider]

I was talking about this post;

LOL thought so ..... every christian I have ever seen that helps , gives food or whatever, then utters these words , Do you know Jesus Christ died for your Sins ...... Then the sermon begins

[Bronco Jamus]

The only ones I give a **** about .......

Well there you go.


Good discussion. This was fun.

[24champ]

This place sucks...

Just wait until someone calls you Unpatriotic...then it gets really fun. ::)

[baja]

Bronco Jam - Us. - clever Garcia.

[Bronco Jamus]

I was talking about this post;

What's the problem?

[Bronco Jamus]

LOL thought so ..... every christian I have ever seen that helps , gives food or whatever, then utters these words , Do you know Jesus Christ died for your Sins ...... Then the sermon begins

You brought God into the discussion. Why are you so fearful of the subject in the religion forum?

[Spider]

You brought God into the discussion. Why are you so fearful of the subject in the religion forum?

ROFL! fearful ..... I cant even spell the word much less know the meaning

[elsid13]

Most roads, fire, and police departments are funded at the state and local level. And many fire departments are volunteer. Your federal dollars don't really end up there. The problem with the federal government controlling our money is that we cannot account on how it's spent. This is why I favor a weakened Federal Government. I do favor a stronger local government. By local, I would define that as state government as well. Social program are much more tolerable at this level because there is greater control on how the money is spent. Our framers designed it this way.


You would strongly surprise how much funding flows to the state to support local infrastructure project through both direct transfers and indirectly thru earmark. In fact those earmarks everyone hates are usually gear to some form of construction project, and on average every dollar spent by the federal government produce about 3 dollar in local economy spending.

And the federal government usually has very good idea were the money is spent, the problem is that it easy accessible to those position of power or outside the organization due to large size of government. But the folks sending the funds out have good idea were the money went.

[Bronco Jamus]

You would strongly surprise how much funding flows to the state to support local infrastructure project through both direct transfers and indirectly thru earmark. In fact those earmarks everyone hates are usually gear to some form of construction project, and on average every dollar spent by the federal government produce about 3 dollar in local economy spending.

And the federal government usually has very good idea were the money is spent, the problem is that it easy accessible to those position of power or outside the organization due to large size of government. But the folks sending the funds out have good idea were the money went.

But the money is passed to the State, and the State is a much more local place for accountability in my opinion. That's the problem with earmarks. They make their way into a bill after it's be voted on, and sometimes even signed into law. Why have the middle man?

[TheDave]

Just wait until someone calls you Unpatriotic...then it gets really fun. ::)

Newsflash... everyone on this board that did not support Nuking Iraq was not only called Unpatriotic, a Traitor, etc. we were also given "Arab-like" names.

Soooooo....been there done that. :thumbs:

[elsid13]

But the money is passed to the State, and the State is a much more local place for accountability in my opinion. That's the problem with earmarks. They make their way into a bill after it's be voted on, and sometimes even signed into law. Why have the middle man?

First the earmark don't happen in vacuum, any time one is place into a appropriation bill, both the professional, personnel and committee staff have reviewed them and told their boss what going on and giving them the opportunity to do something about the dumb one. There is a lot more accountable behind the scenes then most people believe. And I need to pull the number but earmark are that big a percentage of president budget.


And there are many times when the state have no real clue with going on and the state are more likely to play the game of starch my back and I will starch your then what you see at the federal level.

[baja]

First the earmark don't happen in vacuum, any time one is place into a appropriation bill, both the professional, personnel and committee staff have reviewed them and told their boss what going on and giving them the opportunity to do something about the dumb one. There is a lot more accountable behind the scenes then most people believe. And I need to pull the number but earmark are that big a percentage of president budget.


And there are many times when the state have no real clue with going on and the state are more likely to play the game of starch my back and I will starch your then what you see at the federal level.

Elsid what is your first language, just curious.

[Bronco Jamus]

First the earmark don't happen in vacuum, any time one is place into a appropriation bill, both the professional, personnel and committee staff have reviewed them and told their boss what going on and giving them the opportunity to do something about the dumb one. There is a lot more accountable behind the scenes then most people believe. And I need to pull the number but earmark are that big a percentage of president budget.


And there are many times when the state have no real clue with going on and the state are more likely to play the game of starch my back and I will starch your then what you see at the federal level.

You might know better than me, but there is still a problem with a bill showing up for the President to sign or for a vote on a bill that is not complete.

So you think generally speaking that the Feds handle your money better than your state government, or District? I'd also add that there is a great deal of starch in the Federal goverment as well. And it's just as dishonest.

[24champ]

Newsflash... everyone on this board that did not support Nuking Iraq was not only called Unpatriotic, a Traitor, etc. we were also given "Arab-like" names.

Soooooo....been there done that. :thumbs:

I wouldn't know, wasn't around here when the Invasion commenced in Iraq.

[Spider]

Newsflash... everyone on this board that did not support Nuking Iraq was not only called Unpatriotic, a Traitor, etc. we were also given "Arab-like" names.

Soooooo....been there done that. :thumbs:

LOL , my name was Hadij ... though I wanted.... I Bin Pharting

[Spider]

I wouldn't know, wasn't around here when the Invasion commenced in Iraq.

;D we was called traitors , told to move , My terrorist name was Hadji ..... I wanted a real cool name like , I Bin Pharting or I sheezt Mi Drawz

[Rohirrim]

Snort. FDR exacerbated the depression, and set us on the path of unsustainable and ultimately economically ruinous transfers of wealth via State coercion.



On the other hand, he (and Churchill) were bullied by Stalin into letting ol' Joe enslave eastern Europe. They also signed the death warrants of hundreds of thousands of Soviet POWs by standing by while they were forcibly repatriated to the USSR.

There's also the matter of the internment of Americans in camps. That makes Guantanamo look paltry in comparison.

FDR also sold our economic soul to the Saudis.



So?

Yet, amazingly, we managed to survive FDR, and we'll survive Bush. I'm not so down on the US that I believe that one man, even the President, can so wreck the country ("destroy" was the word someone used) that it cannot be fixed.

Why do you believe that?

I could just see you when Jesus handed out the loaves and fishes.

Wigsy "What is this? Cod? I hate cod. Cod sucks. And look at this little loaf. WTF? You got any sourdough?"

[W*GS]

LOL W*GS is about to get bit again .... you want to play about paying Taxes W*GS .... ROFL!.... I clowned your ass when you tried to compare your Car insurence to my Truck insurence , you will get clowned on this issue again ....

Uh-hunh.

My point isn't that you pay a lot in taxes - we all do. My point is that you seem to think those of us who believe the taxes we do pay are too much, and that we don't get a good return on what we pay, are completely wrong and are merely being selfish and semi-anarchist.

That's not true.

[24champ]

;D we was called traitors , told to move , My terrorist name was Hadji ..... I wanted a real cool name like , I Bin Pharting or I sheezt Mi Drawz

Cleric Bin Hualingass should be your name.Ha!

[W*GS]

I could just see you when Jesus handed out the loaves and fishes.

Ya shure ya betcha.

[Spider]

Uh-hunh.

My point isn't that you pay a lot in taxes - we all do. My point is that you seem to think those of us who believe the taxes we do pay are too much, and that we don't get a good return on what we pay, are completely wrong and are merely being selfish and semi-anarchist.

That's not true.

you asked if I paid extra without Bitching ........ ROFL! you dont want ot go there son , you will get your ass handed to you ........

[Rohirrim]

I don't think anyone on this board, unless they are at least in their 70s, can imagine the world of the 30s and 40s in America. There were dead people in our streets. Whole families in bread lines. Thousands of entire families cut loose, wandering the country, looking for work. Then, just when they begin to pull out of that, WWII begins. It's not some paltry little Iraq War with a hundred thousand dead. Millions are dying. The entire world is at war. And what do some now do to the president who pulled us through all that, not only with consummate political skill, but with humor, grace and constant optimism, even while his own polio debilitated him? They sit in their cushy armchairs and pick at his imperfections like some scab.

I guess we live in an era that is so cynical even our heroes are grist for our nasty, small minded cannibalism. If Bush was president during that era, we'd all be speaking German. Or Japanese. Arigato.

[W*GS]

And what do some now do to the president who pulled us through all that, not only with consummate political skill, but with humor, grace and constant optimism, even while his own polio debilitated him? They sit in their cushy armchairs and pick at his imperfections like some scab.

Poor, poor FDR. Apparently, if we don't fall down in front of his wheelchair and worship him, according to you, we're just being mean and nasty to a cripple.

I guess we live in an era that is so cynical even our heroes are grist for our nasty, small minded cannibalism.

We're just supposed to accept the legend and refuse to see the flaws, then.

Now you know how rightards feel when you lay into Reagan. Personally, I believe both FDR and Reagan messed up things royally. I refuse to bow down to Presidents like they were kings or some **** like that.

[Rohirrim]

I have no problem seeing the flaws. You're allowing the flaws to define the entire picture. It always comes back to the same thing with you, Wigsy. You have constructed a perfect, libertarian paradise where you live, in your mind. You look at everything through your adherence to that doctrinal purity. The truth is, if your perfect system ever was actually applied in the concrete world its own faults would manifest quickly. Man cannot come up with perfection. Or perfect political systems. Once you accept that, you won't be such a dour little fellow.

I believe that FDR erred on the side of the people. His solutions may not have been perfect, but the intention was to improve the lives of the American people. Raygun's solutions were systemic. They served a philosophy, and only a small section of the American people benefitted.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I could just see you when Jesus handed out the loaves and fishes.

Wigsy "What is this? Cod? I hate cod. Cod sucks. And look at this little loaf. WTF? You got any sourdough?"

Heh! Ha!

W*GS is doing what he always does:

Jacking a thread about Bush and turning it into an attack on FDR, Kennedy, Clinton, or some other Democrat.

He's still Dubya's loyal Director of Deflection.

[TailgateNut]

Just wait until someone calls you Unpatriotic...then it gets really fun. ::)


Get over it sweetheart. If not just let me know. I have openings in my tuesday night "get a grip" class. At $100 a session they are a bargain. If not stop by my tailgater and we can deal with it. I don't play games, and most of the posters who know me have developed skin that doesn't scar quite as easily as yours.

IMO Generations t,u,v,x,y,and z are pussies!

If you don't like it, challenge me and take a ****ing number.


I have so much anger stored, there's plenty to go around, and I have plenty of bail money!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You can't pick and choose after the fact. Bush chose to make himself the figurehead of the neocon movement. He chose to make himself the flag-bearer of the Wolfowitz Doctrine and PNAC. He hand-picked a cabal of incompetents to staff his government. He chose to lead by the methodology of division and destructive politics. He chose to use 911 to manipulate this country into an unnecessary and destructive war that has emaciated our armed forces and bankrupted our country. The captain is responsible for the ship. Period.

Yep.

This is why W*GS' only recourse is to keep saying "look! over there! it's FDR!" and all chumpbailey and BushCoJamus can do is keep repeating the same old, discredited RNC talking points like a couple of robots.

[Bronco Jamus]

I believe that FDR erred on the side of the people. His solutions may not have been perfect, but the intention was to improve the lives of the American people. Raygun's solutions were systemic. They served a philosophy, and only a small section of the American people benefitted.

I didn't mean to lead you to believe that I think FDR was a terrible President. Hardly, but in my opinion the SSA has opened the door for increased taxation and increased the ability for government mis-management. Is SS a bad concept? To a degree, but I believe FDR's motives were pure, but look at what the SSA has become:

A government controlled money pit.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

LOL you guys are hilarious.

To see the amount of hatred you guys have for someone is distubing.

:stupid:

Your responses are so predictable - reduce all criticism of your beloved Oil Puppet to personal "hatred" - that way you never have to evaluate whether the criticism is valid or not, and Bush is never held to account for anything he does.

You are the exact opposite of a patriotic American - you put party (and saving face) before country every single time.)

http://www.bartcop.com/under-recession.jpg

[W*GS]

I have no problem seeing the flaws. You're
allowing the flaws to define the entire picture.

The flaw with FDR is that he believed (and you do too?) that the State is the solution. What he (and you) miss is that the Depression was the fault of the State, not the market, and that capitalism survived not because of FDR, but despite him. He also grievously eviscerated the concept of personal responsibility, and with that, personal freedom. When you turn over so much of your life to the State, it doesn't use that power without a very heavy price in the loss of one's liberties. FDR represented a huge jump in the direction of heavy-handed authoritarian Statism, a position that has placed us in the precarious position we're in today.

It always comes back to the same thing with you, Wigsy. You have constructed a perfect, libertarian paradise where you live, in your mind. You look at everything through your adherence to that doctrinal purity. The truth is, if your perfect system ever was actually applied in the concrete world its own faults would manifest quickly. Man cannot come up with perfection. Or perfect political systems. Once you accept that, you won't be such a dour little fellow.

If I believed in Utopia, I wouldn't be a libertarian. I'm a libertarian in part precisely because Utopia cannot exist. It's utter folly to allow the State to have so much power and reach - and it's the Utopians who want that. Giving so much power to such a small cabal is a recipe for utter disaster - which is why, to avoid that Dystopia, we must keep the State small, limited, and on a very tight leash. That's how the system was set up originally (not without mistakes, of course), but it has gone far beyond that now, and a lot of that is because of FDR.

I believe that FDR erred on the side of the people.

No. He deliberately grew the State at the expense of the people.

His solutions may not have been perfect, but the intention was to improve the lives of the American people.

The road to Statist hell is paved with good intentions.

Raygun's solutions were systemic. They served a philosophy, and only a small section of the American people benefitted.

Only bureaucrats and Statists benefitted from FDR's reign. We're almost to the point we cannot comprehend the State without the power it has, which is a sad thing, and that's one of FDR's legacies. He turned the system as envisioned upside-down. Like the SS Poseidon, a capsized system cannot last long. We've already seen the cracks, and they're growing.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It always comes back to the same thing with you, Wigsy. You have constructed a perfect, libertarian paradise where you live, in your mind. You look at everything through your adherence to that doctrinal purity. The truth is, if your perfect system ever was actually applied in the concrete world its own faults would manifest quickly.

Exactly.

That's why he had no answer when I asked him for historical evidence to support his claim that the Libertarian Party was the best political party for business.

[W*GS]

LABF complaining about deflection is stupid squared, because no matter the subject, he always lets his Bush Derangement Syndrome go all-out. Always.

[W*GS]

That's why he had no answer when I asked him for historical evidence to support his claim that the Libertarian Party was the best political party for business.

More freedom equals better lives - in business and in everything else.

Dispute that.

[baja]

stupid squared - I like that.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Shaking my head in disbelief at W*GS' right-wing revisionist history of FDR's place in the scheme of things.

W*GS can't seem to wrap his brain around the fact that FDR's new deal created the American middle class and the standard of living we enjoyed right up until the "greed is good" and "government is the problem" ethos of the Reagan revolution kicked in.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Let's see:

This is a thread about Bush and the SOTU speech.

W*GS is trying desperately to turn the thread into a referendum on FDR's policies.

Stupid squared, indeed.

BTW, W*GS, I'm still waiting for that historical evidence to support your claim that the Libertarian Party is the best party for business.

[W*GS]

Shaking my head in disbelief at W*GS' right-wing revisionist history of FDR's place in the scheme of things.

You're shaking your head because the facts have given your brain an aneurysm.

W*GS can't seem to wrap his brain around the fact that FDR's new deal created the American middle class and the standard of living we enjoyed right up until the "greed is good" and "government is the problem" ethos of the Reagan revolution kicked in.

When Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid (LBJ's bastard children, legacies of the FDR mindset) utterly wreck the public finances (and that reckoning is approaching quickly), how do you plan on explaining to your children and grandchildren (shuddering at the thought of you passing on your genes) that FDR was such a great guy?

And your left-wing idolatry is duly noted. In the 70s, was "Maude" in your wet dreams?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

:laugh:

Can't decide which is funnier: W*GS' bat sh*t crazy right-wing revisionist history or his desperate attempt to change the subject of the thead...

http://www.bartcop.com/crash-economy.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Be honest DB, didn't you find it a little funny watching the fiscal conservative finally emerge after 7+ years of not vetoeing a single pork laden spending bill? I promise we won't take your republican card away...;)

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.

http://www.bartcop.com/final-doink.jpg

[Rigs11]

More freedom equals better lives - in business and in everything else.

Dispute that.

Enron, halliburton.those kind of business freedoms?:rofl:

[W*GS]

Can't decide which is funnier: W*GS' bat sh*t crazy right-wing revisionist history or his desperate attempt to change the subject of the thead...

Is "bat **** crazy" your new phrase-o-the-day, picked up from the "What To Say When Leftism Doesn't Give An Answer" 1-800 number?

Ro asked me for a worse President than Bush. I supplied FDR as an answer.

Of course, if you actually read what I've written, and attempted to understand it, instead of your usual drive-by blather, you wouldn't be such a fool.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Funny - the topic of the thread is Bush's SOTU speech.

Eight pages, and no discussion of the topic by W*GS - just desperate attempts to deflect and change the subject to FDR.

Bat sh*t crazy indeed.

[Play2win]

Funny - the topic of the thread is Bush's SOTU speech.

Eight pages, and no discussion of the topic by W*GS - just desperate attempts to deflect and change the subject to FDR.

Bat sh*t crazy indeed.

wags make tom cruise look like Abraham Lincoln...

[Rohirrim]

Anyway, I said no president "in my lifetime" has done more to destroy this country. That still holds.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

wags make tom cruise look like Abraham Lincoln...

:giggle: :~ohyah!:

[W*GS]

Funny - the topic of the thread is Bush's SOTU speech.

Ro offered his opinion that no president (in his lifetime) has done more to "destroy" the country than Bush.

That's hyperbole of the highest order. He asked for someone else. I mentioned FDR, and since then, I've been arguing my point.

I'm not "deflecting", I'm going where the discussion is going.

Of course, as a terminal BDS sufferer, your grasp on reality (if it don't bash Bush, it don't make no sense!) is tenuous, at best.

[W*GS]

Anyway, I said no president "in my lifetime" has done more to destroy this country. That still holds.

Remember LBJ?

[W*GS]

wags make tom cruise look like Abraham Lincoln...

DS49 make English real gooder.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Anyway, I said no president "in my lifetime" has done more to destroy this country. That still holds.

I guess this means W*GS will have to turn his attention (and ours) from FDR to Clinton now.

[W*GS]

Bzzznt. LABF's shot is another airball!

[Rohirrim]

I agree LBJ was horrible. His obsession with winning a meaningless victory in Vietnam was truly destructive. But on the other hand, he put through ground-breaking civil rights and voting legislation and did much to fight poverty in America. I know the Right despises Medicare and Medicaid, but I think what they always focus on is the cost while ignoring the benefits. The Right seems to love deficit spending when it goes to corporations or the military, but they despise it when it allows old, poor people to sidestep the decision between having dog food for dinner or buying medicine. Plus, so much bs has been added to those programs since then that LBJ had nothing to do with. Nixon also did great damage to the country, especially its psyche. Like Bush, he led by dividing. But even he had an impressive (though Machiavellian) foreign policy record that did us some good.

All I see from Bush is bad. What legacy will he leave that balances out all the disasters that have happened on his watch? I can't think of a single one.

[gunns]

+1 :thumbsup:

Whenever the court-appointed pinhead opens his mouth, he validates John Edwards' "Two Americas" reference: One America for Bush and his war profiteering pals, and another America for the rest of us.

http://www.bartcop.com/twilight-zone-monkey.jpg


Unfortunately we crossed over in 2000.

[W*GS]

I agree LBJ was horrible. His obsession with winning a meaningless victory in Vietnam was truly destructive. But on the other hand, he put through ground-breaking civil rights and voting legislation and did much to fight poverty in America. I know the Right despises Medicare and Medicaid, but I think what they always focus on is the cost while ignoring the benefits. The Right seems to love deficit spending when it goes to corporations or the military, but they despise it when it allows old, poor people to sidestep the decision between having dog food for dinner or buying medicine.

It's not that today's elderly have to decide between dog food and medicine - it's that our children and grandchildren will have to make that decision, and while they're much younger too. Either that, or for the trillions that will have been spent, old people will still have to make that decision. It will break unless something radical is done, and as long as there are folks like you who don't have a longer-term and more principled view, that radical change will not be allowed to take place.

All I see from Bush is bad. What legacy will he leave that balances out all the disasters that have happened on his watch? I can't think of a single one.

I'd be hard-pressed to find one. Ask a Bush supporter.

[Bronco Bob]

I agree LBJ was horrible. His obsession with winning a meaningless victory in Vietnam was truly destructive. But on the other hand, he put through ground-breaking civil rights and voting legislation and did much to fight poverty in America. I know the Right despises Medicare and Medicaid, but I think what they always focus on is the cost while ignoring the benefits. The Right seems to love deficit spending when it goes to corporations or the military, but they despise it when it allows old, poor people to sidestep the decision between having dog food for dinner or buying medicine. Plus, so much bs has been added to those programs since then that LBJ had nothing to do with. Nixon also did great damage to the country, especially its psyche. Like Bush, he led by dividing. But even he had an impressive (though Machiavellian) foreign policy record that did us some good.

All I see from Bush is bad. What legacy will he leave that balances out all the disasters that have happened on his watch? I can't think of a single one.

I guess it all boils down to that. Yes, W*gs can point out bad things
that happened on FDR's and Clinton's watch. While excusing away
the good things. But I have yet to see anything significant thing good
that happened on Bush's watch. All I see are negatives. What does
it say when even candidates in his own party are running away
from his record and billing themselves as the "change" candidate.

[gunns]

When Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid (LBJ's bastard children, legacies of the FDR mindset) utterly wreck the public finances (and that reckoning is approaching quickly), how do you plan on explaining to your children and grandchildren (shuddering at the thought of you passing on your genes) that FDR was such a great guy?


FDR's premise was to help those that couldn't help themselves. Primarily widows, who back in those days didn't have a hope in hell of earning a living wage. It was not for those who chose not to work. That changed with Johnson and created the welfare system we see today. And no President since has tried to stop that except Clinton. It almost worked until Bush came to office and gave the lazy yet more excuses.

The social security programs was an excellent idea that people paid into and reaped the benefits of. Problem is, government officials have taken it as their own money pit and they made rules that in turn helped themselves out but created the depletion of the social security monies. All they need to do is make those that make over 90,000 a year pay the same precentage of FICA and medicare taxes the rest of us do and whaaalaa we have the money. But why do that? Then they would have to pay into it and why do that when they get the retirement benefits they do. They are the ones that are set for old age. **** the rest of us. Spend our money.

This thread became a "deflection from my mistakes" when WIGS began posting. Will you ever get over the trauma of being wrong WIGS? My favorite posts? The ones where WIGS is asked a question and responds by attacking LABF. Comical at best, sad in a sense.

[W*GS]

What does it say when even candidates in his own party are running away from his record and billing themselves as the "change" candidate.

Gore didn't run as Clinton Jr., either - and he was the anointed one. It's still a puzzle to me why he didn't adopt GHWB's winning strategy of 1988 - more of the same.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I agree LBJ was horrible.

Me too.

But what does LBJ have to do with Bush's SOTU speech, W*GS?

LMAO @ W*GS hopping from one Democratic president to another in his efforts to deflect for GeeDubya.

This thread is about Bush's SOTU speech, and W*GS has yet to compose one post that is on topic.

And he wonders why so many people "mistake" him for a Bush apologist?

[Rohirrim]

It's not that today's elderly have to decide between dog food and medicine - it's that our children and grandchildren will have to make that decision, and while they're much younger too. Either that, or for the trillions that will have been spent, old people will still have to make that decision. It will break unless something radical is done, and as long as there are folks like you who don't have a longer-term and more principled view, that radical change will not be allowed to take place.



I'd be hard-pressed to find one. Ask a Bush supporter.

"More principled view?" What would that be? Care more about the money than I do about the suffering of people? Which principle is that, the asshole principle? We always seem to find the money to go to war, Iraq being a wonderful example of that. Why aren't we bitching about that trillion dollars getting flushed down the toilet?

Here's my long term more principled view. The survival of the fittest works well for animals. I think we can create a society that rises above that concept. That is the difference with humans. We can decide to share. We can decide to create a society that is a little more compassionate than just winners vs. losers.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This thread became a "deflection from my mistakes" when WIGS began posting. Will you ever get over the trauma of being wrong WIGS? My favorite posts? The ones where WIGS is asked a question and responds by attacking LABF. Comical at best, sad in a sense.

This is about all W*GS has ever brought to this forum, isn't it?

You nailed it.

[Bronco Bob]

Gore didn't run as Clinton Jr., either - and he was the anointed one. It's still a puzzle to me why he didn't adopt GHWB's winning strategy of 1988 - more of the same.

Here comes W*gs right on time with another of his "Yes, but Clinton" posts. Hilarious!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Here's my long term more principled view. The survival of the fittest works well for animals. I think we can create a society that rises above that concept. That is the difference with humans. We can decide to share. We can decide to create a society that is a little more compassionate than just winners vs. losers.

+1

Unfortunately, this sort of ethic is lost on regressives like W*GS, it seems.

[W*GS]

The social security programs was an excellent idea that people paid into and reaped the benefits of. Problem is, government officials have taken it as their own money pit and they made rules that in turn helped themselves out but created the depletion of the social security monies. All they need to do is make those that make over 90,000 a year pay the same precentage the rest of us do and whaaalaa we have the money. But why do that? Then they would have to pay into it and why do that when they get the retirement benefits they do. They are the ones that are set for old age. **** the rest of us. Spend our money.

Anyone who's seen the cost growth projections of Medicare and Medicaid (and, to a lesser extent, SS) realizes right quick that the only solutions are either massive tax increases to keep them viable, or a huge reduction in their expenses, which stiffs those who paid all their working lives just to have what they were promised yanked away from them.

The reason politicians use for sucking up the SS surplus is because more of our money in their hands gives them more power, and all politicians are addicted to power. Taxing more of us, and increasing taxes generally, is not the way to treat their illness. It's time for cold turkey.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Here comes W*gs right on time with another of his "Yes, but Clinton" posts. Hilarious!

:rofl:

You can set your watch to it.

[W*GS]

"More principled view?" What would that be? Care more about the money than I do about the suffering of people?

Here we go with the bogus "I'm more compassionate than thou because I care about people and not just money" crap that lefties always trot out.

Genuine compassion isn't using the State's coercive powers to squeeze and squeeze and tax and tax to take from X to give to Y. It's bull**** to claim altruism and caring for one's fellow humans when it boils down to forcing Peter to pay for Paul. Lefties always spill out this line of nonsense, however, no matter how shallow and weak it is.

Here's my long term more principled view. The survival of the fittest works well for animals. I think we can create a society that rises above that concept. That is the difference with humans. We can decide to share. We can decide to create a society that is a little more compassionate than just winners vs. losers.

Sharing at the point of a gun isn't really sharing.

And if all you can think of to prove how wonderful and humanitarian you are is using State force to take from some to give to others (with a healthy cut for the bureaucrats and politicians in-between), you're suffering from a lack of creativity, and a false sense of moral superiority.

[baja]

Gore didn't run as Clinton Jr., either - and he was the anointed one. It's still a puzzle to me why he didn't adopt GHWB's winning strategy of 1988 - more of the same.

Today Gore came out in support for Obama which I thought was huge but it has been o hum in the press.

Doesn't anybody else think that is a huge story?

[W*GS]

Here comes W*gs right on time with another of his "Yes, but Clinton" posts. Hilarious!

Well no, it was about Gore. It had the word "Clinton" in it, true, but you missed the point.

If Republicans aren't running as torch carriers of Bush's legacy, and that's evidence of just how disastrous the Bush years have been, then why didn't Gore run using the Clinton years as the centerpiece of his campaign, as GHWB did in 1988? Is that evidence that the Clinton years were disastrous, that even the VP for the entire time didn't think the warm fuzzies voters had for the period sufficient to assist him in his candidacy for President?

[W*GS]

+1

Unfortunately, this sort of ethic is lost on regressives like W*GS, it seems.

Another lefty who thinks compassion flows from the barrel of a gun.

[W*GS]

But what does LBJ have to do with Bush's SOTU speech, W*GS?

What does Bush have to do with a "radical liberal" lawyer keying a Marine's car and doing $2400 damage?

[Rohirrim]

Anyone who's seen the cost growth projections of Medicare and Medicaid (and, to a lesser extent, SS) realizes right quick that the only solutions are either massive tax increases to keep them viable, or a huge reduction in their expenses, which stiffs those who paid all their working lives just to have what they were promised yanked away from them.

The reason politicians use for sucking up the SS surplus is because more of our money in their hands gives them more power, and all politicians are addicted to power. Taxing more of us, and increasing taxes generally, is not the way to treat their illness. It's time for cold turkey.

The money from government medical care is not going into politicians pockets or the government's coffers. It's going into a massive government supported medical establishment (set up by Nixon, actually) of HMO robber barons. THAT'S where the skyrocketing medical costs are coming from. These greedy bastards.

[W*GS]

The money from government medical care is not going into politicians pockets or the government's coffers. It's going into a massive government supported medical establishment (set up by Nixon, actually) of HMO robber barons. THAT'S where the skyrocketing medical costs are coming from. These greedy bastards.

So cut them off. Don't believe for one second that more laws (which just means more power for politicians) will change things one bit.

[Bronco Bob]

Today Gore came out in support for Obama which I thought was huge but it has been o hum in the press.

Doesn't anybody else think that is a huge story?

Maybe because as I write this, it hasn't happened yet?
Where did you see Al Gore endorsing Obama?

[baja]

I caught it walking out of the house I had some shopping to do in Cabo and I have not turned the TV back on yet. Ya know maybe they said Kerry now that I think back. I heard the name Gore though and I thought this is a huge endorsement fro Obama.

[Rohirrim]

Here we go with the bogus "I'm more compassionate than thou because I care about people and not just money" crap that lefties always trot out.

Genuine compassion isn't using the State's coercive powers to squeeze and squeeze and tax and tax to take from X to give to Y. It's bull**** to claim altruism and caring for one's fellow humans when it boils down to forcing Peter to pay for Paul. Lefties always spill out this line of nonsense, however, no matter how shallow and weak it is.



Sharing at the point of a gun isn't really sharing.

And if all you can think of to prove how wonderful and humanitarian you are is using State force to take from some to give to others (with a healthy cut for the bureaucrats and politicians in-between), you're suffering from a lack of creativity, and a false sense of moral superiority.

Somewhere down the road the American people are going to wise up and realize that they too could have a medical system that takes care of them and their families for their entire lives, no matter what happens. They'll want that beautiful feeling Canadians, Brits and the French wake up to every morning, knowing that no matter what happens, their family will not be destroyed by medical bills. They'll know they can't lose their house, their savings, or college funds of their children just because they come down with some disease. They'll realize how wonderful it is to know that some little accountant in some office somewhere can't just scratch their existence off some list because they have the wrong disease which requires the wrong treatment. And then you know what they'll do Wigsy? They'll vote. They will agree to share. There will be no guns pointing at anybody. They will use their individual liberty and they will say, "Hey, let's all do this together, for each other. For our children." And Wigsy the Grinch will be wailing in some mountain cave.

[W*GS]

They'll realize how wonderful it is to know that some little accountant in some office somewhere can't just scratch their existence off some list because they have the wrong disease which requires the wrong treatment.

They'll replace the (horrid, capitalist) accountant with a (horrid, faceless) bureaucrat. And things will be magically better for their doing so.

And then you know what they'll do Wigsy? They'll vote. They will agree to share. There will be no guns pointing at anybody.

Bull****. Whenever the State is used as a means, guns are involved. Always.

And the "Grinch" metaphor was more like LABF. Occasionally you have moments of lucidity and reason, but then you go off and take the LABFian road with the silly stuff. Quit doing that. It's sad.

[Bronco Bob]

Well no, it was about Gore. It had the word "Clinton" in it, true, but you missed the point.

If Republicans aren't running as torch carriers of Bush's legacy, and that's evidence of just how disastrous the Bush years have been, then why didn't Gore run using the Clinton years as the centerpiece of his campaign, as GHWB did in 1988? Is that evidence that the Clinton years were disastrous, that even the VP for the entire time didn't think the warm fuzzies voters had for the period sufficient to assist him in his candidacy for President?

I saw Al Gore not running toward Bill Clinton. Not running away from Bill Clinton.
Did Al Gore ever once say in the campaign the Clinton years were a disaster,
vote for me and I will fix all of that?
By then it had become a personal thing, they didn't like each other, so
they ignored each other. If anything, Gore blames Clinton for losing
the race, because Clinton didn't do enough to help him win.
And if Al Gore wasn't running as Clinton's VP, what was he running as?
I see everyone running away from Bush. I don't see anyone seeking
Bush's help to win the election. That's what McCain, Romney, Huckabee,
and Ron Paul are all doing in regards to Bush.
But I don't think any of the GOP candidate dislike Bush on a personal level.

[Rohirrim]

They'll replace the (horrid, capitalist) accountant with a (horrid, faceless) bureaucrat. And things will be magically better for their doing so.

No, they'll replace the accountant with a doctor who says, "Sure I can treat you. It's what I do."



Bull****. Whenever the State is used as a means, guns are involved. Always.

And the "Grinch" metaphor was more like LABF. Occasionally you have moments of lucidity and reason, but then you go off and take the LABFian road with the silly stuff. Quit doing that. It's sad.

Really? Who's holding the guns to people's heads in Canada, Britain or France?

I liked the Grinch metaphor. I could just see you up there in your cave, howling imprecations down on the heads of all the innocent little Whos. ;D

[DBruleU]

:stupid:

Your responses are so predictable - reduce all criticism of your beloved Oil Puppet to personal "hatred" - that way you never have to evaluate whether the criticism is valid or not, and Bush is never held to account for anything he does.

You are the exact opposite of a patriotic American - you put party (and saving face) before country every single time.)

http://www.bartcop.com/under-recession.jpg

This from a guy who responds to everything with a Bartcop cartoon?

Please LABF...you're such a hypocrite.

[W*GS]

No, they'll replace the accountant with a doctor who says, "Sure I can treat you. It's what I do."

Thanks for the early am guffaw.

Prove that State-run health care systems never ration or deny health care. We already know that they do, so your statement above is pure fantasy.

Really? Who's holding the guns to people's heads in Canada, Britain or France?

Government agents of the respective countries. Go to one of those places and don't pay the taxes you're supposed to pay. See what happens.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This from a guy who responds to everything with a Bartcop cartoon?

Seven years of Bush, and you still don't get the picture.

I figured maybe someone needed to draw you one. :welcome:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

This from a guy who responds to everything with a Bartcop cartoon?

Honestly, is this your only response to the charge I just made against you?

You honestly think this constitutes a rebuttal?

No wonder you're such an easy mark for con men like GeeDubya.

:laugh:

[Rohirrim]

Thanks for the early am guffaw.

Prove that State-run health care systems never ration or deny health care. We already know that they do, so your statement above is pure fantasy.


What you mean "We," paleface? Prove? Who made you chief justice of the board? Here's the funny thing. People in those countries may b**** and moan about their health care system, but if you ask them if they would trade for the U.S. system, they say, "No way."


Government agents of the respective countries. Go to one of those places and don't pay the taxes you're supposed to pay. See what happens.

I got news for ya, Bosco. Try not paying your taxes right here in the good ole USA and see what happens. Why should somebody be allowed to not pay taxes? Because of their philosophy? If somebody refuses to pay taxes then we should not allow them to drive on our streets, not allow them to call our fire department or police, not allow them to fly in our regulated skies, not allow them to eat our FDA inspected foods, etc. etc. etc.

BTW, I take it you don't believe in democracy? You are opposed to universal health care even if a majority of voters decided that's what they wanted? On what grounds, philosophy? Who's the tyrant?

[DBruleU]

Honestly, is this your only response to the charge I just made against you?

You honestly think this constitutes a rebuttal?

No wonder you're such an easy mark for con men like GeeDubya.

:laugh:

What you think of me, or anyone else in this forum for that matter is of no concern to me.

I don't need to prove anything to you, or anyone else.

I also see no point in arguing anything with you, or anyone else...see TailgateNut and 24Champs early confrontation in this thread for what I mean. It goes no where, changes no ones mind, and all that ends up happening is you end up being attacked to no end by the usual culprits...

[W*GS]

People in those countries may b**** and moan about their health care system, but if you ask them if they would trade for the U.S. system, they say, "No way."

That still doesn't mean that health care isn't rationed and people are denied health care for reasons you wouldn't find acceptable.

Making health care State-controlled doesn't get rid of the mismatch between supply and demand.

I got news for ya, Bosco. Try not paying your taxes right here in the good ole USA and see what happens.

The same thing. I didn't say that we good 'Merkans don't have to pay taxes.

Why should somebody be allowed to not pay taxes? Because of their philosophy? If somebody refuses to pay taxes then we should not allow them to drive on our streets, not allow them to call our fire department or police, not allow them to fly in our regulated skies, not allow them to eat our FDA inspected foods, etc. etc. etc.

Your answer is for us to shut up, pay our taxes, and leave it at that?

Go tell the folks who proclaim that a huge chunk of what we pay goes to the "war machine" - they seem to think that taxes that go to it are bad. Are they full of crap too?

BTW, I take it you don't believe in democracy? You are opposed to universal health care even if a majority of voters decided that's what they wanted? On what grounds, philosophy? Who's the tyrant?

The US isn't a majoritarian democratic system - just because everyone but one person wants to screw that one person, doesn't make it right. You're arguing like a right-winger... Accede to State power, or else, bub.

[Rohirrim]

That still doesn't mean that health care isn't rationed and people are denied health care for reasons you wouldn't find acceptable.

Making health care State-controlled doesn't get rid of the mismatch between supply and demand.

My argument is that health care should not be listed under the rubric of supply and demand. Health care is not a widget. To apply free market principles to health care gives us what we have now, accountants making medical treatment decisions.



The same thing. I didn't say that we good 'Merkans don't have to pay taxes.



Your answer is for us to shut up, pay our taxes, and leave it at that?

This is a republic. You vote for representatives. If you are opposed to a tax, write to your representative. Raise a coalition. Change the law.

Go tell the folks who proclaim that a huge chunk of what we pay goes to the "war machine" - they seem to think that taxes that go to it are bad. Are they full of crap too?

See above.



The US isn't a majoritarian democratic system - just because everyone but one person wants to screw that one person, doesn't make it right. You're arguing like a right-winger... Accede to State power, or else, bub.

I know it conflicts with the purity of your doctrine, but there's just no way around it. To paraphrase Lincoln, you can't make all the people happy all the time. You can choose any kind of society you want going all the way back to tribalism and you're going to have people who don't agree with the majority. Them's the breaks. I've been opposed to numerous things the government has done throughout my life. I've been deeply dissatisfied with the direction we have taken for twenty seven years, and I've voted that way. Unfortunately, I've been in the minority. I keep writing letters and I live with it.

The state has been a very successful concept to manage the affairs of mankind for almost ten thousand years. What do suggest we replace it with?

[Bronco Bob]

The state has been a very successful concept to manage the affairs of mankind for almost ten thousand years. What do suggest we replace it with?

Oh hell, longer than that. Every animal that organizes as a society
has a member that is in charge, the alpha male, that looks out for
the group, makes the decisions, allocates resources. The government
is just basically our equivalent of the alpha male, the lion in charge
of his pride, the baboon in charge of his troop, the greyback in
charge of a family of gorillas, the stallion in charge of a herd of horses.

There is a word for animals that try to go it alone. Prey.

[W*GS]

My argument is that health care should not be listed under the rubric of supply and demand.

Any attempt to avoid the concrete concepts of supply and demand in regards to health care is doomed to fail. As we've seen from State-run health care systems, they're not immune.

You can't change reality by legislative fiat.

This is a republic. You vote for representatives. If you are opposed to a tax, write to your representative. Raise a coalition. Change the law.

Indeed. I'm a libertarian - I don't accept it as a given that we can only change the State at the margins, which seems to be the general level of tolerance and acceptance of most Americans.

I know it conflicts with the purity of your doctrine, but there's just no way around it. To paraphrase Lincoln, you can't make all the people happy all the time. You can choose any kind of society you want going all the way back to tribalism and you're going to have people who don't agree with the majority. Them's the breaks. I've been opposed to numerous things the government has done throughout my life. I've been deeply dissatisfied with the direction we have taken for twenty seven years, and I've voted that way. Unfortunately, I've been in the minority. I keep writing letters and I live with it.

I'm not an anarchist.

The state has been a very successful concept to manage the affairs of mankind for almost ten thousand years. What do suggest we replace it with?

See above.

You're also making a conservative argument - it's old, so it must be good. The same argument could have been made about slavery ~150 years ago, but at that time, we no longer found it persuasive.

I'm no anarchist, but allowing the State to grow forever will not work.

[W*GS]

Oh hell, longer than that. Every animal that organizes as a society
has a member that is in charge, the alpha male, that looks out for
the group, makes the decisions, allocates resources. The government
is just basically our equivalent of the alpha male, the lion in charge
of his pride, the baboon in charge of his troop, the greyback in
charge of a family of gorillas, the stallion in charge of a herd of horses.

There is a word for animals that try to go it alone. Prey.

It's not an either/or. We are neither prey, nor subject to a rigidly hierarchical system in which The Boss knows what's best and we either go along or get killed or kicked out if we don't. You're making Plato's argument, and I think we can all agree that his societal vision isn't a good one.

[Rohirrim]

Any attempt to avoid the concrete concepts of supply and demand in regards to health care is doomed to fail. As we've seen from State-run health care systems, they're not immune.

You can't change reality by legislative fiat.



Indeed. I'm a libertarian - I don't accept it as a given that we can only change the State at the margins, which seems to be the general level of tolerance and acceptance of most Americans.



I'm not an anarchist.



See above.

You're also making a conservative argument - it's old, so it must be good. The same argument could have been made about slavery ~150 years ago, but at that time, we no longer found it persuasive.

I'm no anarchist, but allowing the State to grow forever will not work.

Well, that was a clumsy side-step of the question.

What do you suggest to replace the concept of a state?

[W*GS]

What do you suggest to replace the concept of a state?

I'm not an anarchist, or a theocrat. The state must exist. That doesn't mean that it must dictate ever-larger chunks of our lives. I believe there is a "sweet spot" of state size and power (not none and not 100%), and that we're well above it.

[W*GS]

I noted that you didn't respond to my argument that health care is not, and cannot be, immune to supply and demand. You don't like that, but that's the way it is.

[Rohirrim]

I noted that you didn't respond to my argument that health care is not, and cannot be, immune to supply and demand. You don't like that, but that's the way it is.

That depends on the goal you hope to obtain. If your goal is simple profit, then sure you can apply S&D and make it a success. We can continue to sell young people on the idea that hey, if you want to get rich, become a doctor.

I would argue that the goal of a health care system is to alleviate illness and suffering amongst all of societies members, regardless of economic status. Just as you would argue that removing healthcare from the rules of S&D will fail, we can already see that operating it strictly by those laws is a failure as well.

What if a small minority of people have a fatal disease? Pharmas aren't going to want to create a medicine for it. It's not cost effective. If they do, then they are going to charge a fortune for that medicine that only the rich will be able to afford. We'll also have what we have now, actuaries making medical decisions based on the bottom line. Yes, we can keep so-and-so alive for another five years, but the treatment plan is not cost effective for that limited result. It makes better business sense to let that person die.

What we end up with when we turn health care over to S&D principles is what we have now. Strip mall clinics where you can buy your own MRI and self diagnose. Taxis dumping off untreated indigents in hospital gowns at homeless shelters. Franchise clinics that treat only one illness, allergies, for instance. Pharmas fighting it out on TV over who can sell the most of a limp dick drug or shooting diet drugs into the market before they can be adequately tested, thereby killing a bunch of people.

First, do no harm.

[W*GS]

I would argue that the goal of a health care system is to alleviate illness and suffering amongst all of societies members, regardless of economic status. Just as you would argue that removing healthcare from the rules of S&D will fail, we can already see that operating it strictly by those laws is a failure as well.

Health care in the US is hardly a free market.

What's the difference in outcomes between an infinite demand for health care and a finite supply of health care providers and provision in your system versus one based on market principles?

Whether it's an accountant or actuary denying care, or a bureaucrat following policy and denying care, the person requiring care is screwed. At least with a market-based system, there's very likely an alternative. In a state-controlled system, the state has a monopoly, and there is no alternative.

No matter how much you want health care to be free of the constraints of supply and demand, your wishes can't make them go away.

[Rohirrim]

Health care in the US is hardly a free market.

What's the difference in outcomes between an infinite demand for health care and a finite supply of health care providers and provision in your system versus one based on market principles?

Whether it's an accountant or actuary denying care, or a bureaucrat following policy and denying care, the person requiring care is screwed. At least with a market-based system, there's very likely an alternative. In a state-controlled system, the state has a monopoly, and there is no alternative.

No matter how much you want health care to be free of the constraints of supply and demand, your wishes can't make them go away.

We have an infinite demand for water and we sure as hell don't apply those laws to our water supply, do we?

[Bronco Bob]

I noted that you didn't respond to my argument that health care is not, and cannot be, immune to supply and demand. You don't like that, but that's the way it is.

What I can see is that having access to health care would encourage people
to seek medical help sooner, instead of waiting until they are half dead and
showing up on the doorstep of the emergency room. So while there would be
more low cost demand up front, there would be a lot less demand at the high
cost terminal stages of a disease. And with a healthier population productivity
would increase, and this would tend to offset medical costs in general,
because more people would be at work instead of laying in a hospital bed
dying from a terminal disease.

[Bronco Jamus]

I haven't seen a proposal for state-run health care in this country by any of the major candidates. There is a difference between socialized medicine and universal health care. One being state run where the doctors are state employees and the other just being subsidized.

[Bronco Jamus]

What I can see is that having access to health care would encourage people
to seek medical help sooner, instead of waiting until they are half dead and
showing up on the doorstep of the emergency room. So while there would be
more low cost demand up front, there would be a lot less demand at the high
cost terminal stages of a disease. And with a healthier population productivity
would increase, and this would tend to offset medical costs in general,
because more people would be at work instead of laying in a hospital bed
dying from a terminal disease.

There is no way to predict that. You are literally talking about reading the future.

[TailgateNut]

There is no way to predict that. You are literally talking about reading the future.


Pretty elementary, my dear! I though it was a great take by Bob.
Just consider flu season. A worker who doesn't have insurance will either work and very likely infect some of his co-workers = loss of productivity, or he will stay at home struggling through the virus = loss of productivity.
That's just one example

[Rohirrim]

What I'd like to know is why the U.S. spends much, much more on health care than any other industrialized nation and yet we are consistently rated at the bottom for results?