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DomCasual
01-27-2008, 11:14 PM
I'm not sure how many non-LDS people know about the president of the LDS Church. But those of us who are LDS would almost all agree that he's one of the greatest men we've ever known. Even at 97, he's been active and sharp. He lived a great life, and definitely left the world a better place than he found it.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8095453

LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley dies
By Peggy Fletcher Stack
Article Last Updated: 01/27/2008 08:31:44 PM MST

Posted: 8:24 PM- President Gordon B. Hinckley of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints died this evening. He was 97.
Hinckley's life spanned the 20th century, a time marked by LDS global outreach and technological advances. Hie saw his church evolve from a tiny sect in the Intermountain West to a respected religious movement with more than 13 million members worldwide. He embraced each new communication device, from radio to satellite to YouTube, as a chance to spread the Mormon word.

He began his career in the 1930s as a missionary defending the faith on a soapbox in London's Hyde Park and lived to see the country's first viable Mormon candidate for president. Through it all, Hinckley worked tirelessly to gain acceptance for his church on the world's stage.

"We are not a weird people," Hinckley told Mike Wallace in a 1995 "60 Minutes" interview.

With the shrewdness of a politician, Hinckley downplayed the more controversial aspects of LDS history. He welcomed the world to Utah for the 2002 Olympic Winter Games, promising everyone they could get a drink here and accepted one of America's highest honors - the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

He highlighted Mormon commonality with other Christians, forging alliances with other faith groups while scolding LDS Church members for being too clannish, self-righteous and unfriendly to their neighbors.

"This church has grown into a great worldwide organization affecting for good the lives of people in more than 140 nations," Hinckley told The New York Times in 1995. "You can't, you don't, build out of pessimism or cynicism. You look with optimism, work with faith, and things happen."

Even as he looked outward, Hinckley energized the faithful with his forward-thinking proposals.
He undertook the most ambitious building program in the church's history, including the massive Conference Center near Temple Square and 83 temples - that's 24 more in TK years than the 50 constructed in the previous 165 years of LDS history. He created a plan to help returned missionaries in Third World countries get an education. He revitalized missionary work, worked on the retention of new converts, sent apostles to live in far-flung regions for the first time in Mormon history, and replaced many paid positions with volunteers.

Hinckley also remodeled the image of a Mormon leader.

When he became the church's 15th president in March 1995 at 84 years old, Hinckley essentially had been leading the church for more than a decade due to the frail health of his predecessors. He was determined to defy the view of LDS presidents as feeble, secretive and quaintly parochial. He dazzled people - members and outsiders alike - with his encyclopedic memory and almost superhuman work ethic. During his TK years as president, Hinckley gave more than 2,000 speeches, visited more than 150 countries, and greeted hundreds of diplomats and ambassadors. He was interviewed by journalists from nearly every major American newspaper, charming many with his folksy wisdom and self-deprecating humor.

"Treat me well," he would say with a sly grin. "I'm just an old man."

Yet even in his 90s, the figure Mormons consider a "prophet, seer and revelator" rarely thought like an old man.
"His keen intellect and thirst to understand how everything works resulted in a storehouse of knowledge that will be nearly irreplaceable," said Elder Marlin Jensen, the church's official historian. "I believe he was a true prophet but it didn't hurt that he was a genius, too."

Roots of leadership
Throughout childhood, Hinckley split his time between a Salt Lake City home and a farm in East Millcreek, where he learned to work the land, love the trees and grow his Mormon faith.

It was there where he had his first spiritual experience. He was about 5 years old and suffering from a painful earache.
"My mother prepared a bag of table salt and put it on the stove to warm," he said in 2000. "My father softly put his hands upon my head and gave me a blessing, rebuking the pain and the illness by authority of the holy priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ. He then took me tenderly in his arms and placed the bag of warm salt at my ear. The pain subsided and left."
Cradled in his father's arms, Hinckley drifted off to sleep, his father's words lingering in his mind.

"That is the earliest remembrance I have of the exercise of the authority of the priesthood in the name of the Lord," he said.
While the Hinckley home was awash in Mormon practices, it was also a place of learning. The five children (as well as several half-siblings) read Harvard classics around the kitchen table, where Hinckley became a devotee of Milton, Shakespeare, Kipling and especially Charles Dickens.

Such wide-ranging reading was unusual for a homespun Mormon family, but it provided the wellspring of education to which Hinckley would return again and again in his career. It allowed him to speak "non-Mormon" fluently. In 1998, Hinckley wrote a small volume, Standing for Something: Ten Neglected Virtues That Will Heal Our Hearts and Homes, in which he drew on many childhood experiences without a single use of uniquely LDS language or beliefs.

To the faithful, Hinckley spoke in simple, imperative sentences like a grandfather - stern when condemning abuse, pornography or racism, gentle when encouraging faith and devotion. No grand theology, no fancy wordplay. Just no-nonsense advice.
"For the most part we are a happy people," he said at the 1998 Semi-Annual General Conference. "We're mindful of and continue to pray for those who are experiencing hardship due to natural or man-caused calamity. But even those among our number who are bowed down with sorrow and pain, go forward in faith with the certain assurance that God lives and is watching over his children."

Hinckley told Jensen he had no particular system for crafting his speeches.

"I just keep reading and clipping things and putting them in a drawer," the Mormon prophet said. "Then, when I have a talk to give, I go to the drawer and whatever is on top is what they get."

Such humor belies the truth, Jensen said. "Few have ever been as eloquent and inspiring in their speaking as he. He could relate and connect with everyone - old and young, rich and poor, educated and unlearned."

Building a career
Hinckley's two-year mission to England at the height of the Great Depression was an education in itself. He learned how to deflect antagonistic questions and discovered what would become his life's work - using the printed word, and later the airwaves, to promote the faith.

In 1933, few Britains were joining the American church, and many heaped insults and ridicule on its young representatives. Mormon missionaries would preach from portable podiums in London's Hyde Park while onlookers challenged them to verbal duels.
"We learned to speak quickly on our feet. And Elder Hinckley was the best of the bunch," the late Wendell Ashton, one of Hinckley's missionary companions, told LDS Apostle Jeffrey Holland.

The missionaries had no set oral presentation or prepared materials to distribute other than a few pamphlets and the faith's scripture, The Book of Mormon.

"Our conversion rate was terrible," said Ashton, former publisher of the church-owned Deseret Morning News. "We would just knock on doors and try to teach people, and it wasn't a good method."

At the end of his mission, Hinckley complained about the lack of aids to his mission president, who ordered him to report immediately back to LDS Church headquarters in Salt Lake City, rather than tour the Holy Land as he had planned. When Hinckley had given his report, LDS President Heber J. Grant hired him on the spot.

At 24, Hinckley took over the newly created Church Radio, Publicity and Mission Literature Committee and would spend much of the next five decades thinking of new ways to get the church and its message into the American consciousness.

He wrote and edited scripts and supervised production for a radio series, "Fullness of Times," which featured 39 half-hour dramatizations of church history. He persuaded Mormon leaders to sponsor an exhibit at the 1938 World's Fair in San Francisco, including a scale model of the famed Mormon Tabernacle on Temple Square and daily organ recitals. He produced a similar exhibit for the centennial of the 1849 discovery of gold in California, with a replica of a cabin occupied by members of the Mormon Battalion.

Told in heroic detail, the Mormon story was repeated over and over as a way to attract potential converts - or at least to correct what Hinckley saw as public misconceptions of LDS teachings.

With his help, the church built a vast media empire, including radio and televisions stations. It had produced award-winning TV spots and ads for the church in Reader's Digest magazine. It had satellite technology at every wardhouse on the planet and could beam the sermons around the world.

Hinckley began his globe-trotting duties after he was named an apostle on Oct. 5, 1961.
While on speaking assignments, he was always available to comfort members in need. He was in Tonga when a boatload of Mormons drowned. He was in South America when a devastating earthquake hit Peru. He was in South Korea when there were gunshots in the streets.

As the decades passed, Hinckley shouldered more and more of the church's bureaucratic burdens.

Taking the lead
In 1981, President Spencer W. Kimball was weakened by brain surgery and his two aged counselors in the governing First Presidency were scarcely more capable of managing the church's affairs. So Kimball took the unusual move of bringing Hinckley, then an apostle, into the First Presidency as a third counselor.

From that day forward, Hinckley took on nearly the entire responsibility of leading the church, all the while seeming to be but a dutiful soldier bravely serving his general. After Kimball's death, Hinckley would help the enfeebled President Ezra Taft Benson in much the same way.

When Hinckley ascended to the church presidency in 1995, then, he was better prepared for the office than any man before him. He knew the church's system and programs intimately because he had designed many of them, much as he built his own home as a young man.

Architect, engineer, electrician, roofer, carpenter, brick layer and plumber all in one, Hinckley often boasted that he hammered every nail in the home - and never a one on Sunday. Over time, he planted more than 1,000 trees on his East Millcreek acreage.
"There is something in me that makes me plant trees each spring," he said in 2003. "They are very small now, but in 20 years they will be magnificent."

Designing spaces, ripping out walls, planting seeds for the future - this is what Hinckley did for the church, its people and programs.

Hinckley conceived and directed the transformation of the grand old Hotel Utah into an office building for church employees. After awakening from a dream, he sketched a temple that would be built atop a commercial building in Hong Kong. He remembered tiny details - when a certain chapel's roof was last replaced, or the name of someone he met years earlier. He instituted smaller, less expensive temples to serve members in remote areas.

For the first time in its history, the church launched a humanitarian service department that spent millions of dollars in emergency relief for people outside the faith. Hinckley also created a Perpetual Education Fund to help returned missionaries in Third World countries go to college.

And no one took a stronger lead in the church's political efforts.

He built alliances with other Christian denominations to oppose same-sex marriages and defend religious liberties. In 1998, Hinckley announced a "Proclamation on the Family," which laid out the church's support for the sanctity of marriage, the significance of family and the importance of chastity.

That became the theological foundation for the church's opposition to any effort to promote same-sex marriage. In 2000, the LDS Church defended the Boy Scouts' right to exclude gays from leadership positions, and the church and its members in Alaska and Hawaii gave time and well over $1 million to thwart same-sex marriage initiatives; in 1999, members in California helped finance the push for a Protection of Marriage Act on that state's ballot.

"What's a church for if it isn't to fight for values, to take a stand and face up to these moral issues?" Hinckley said in a February 2000 interview with The Salt Lake Tribune.

Mormon rock star
When Hinckley became president in 1995, the man who once dreamed of becoming a reporter had come full circle. He seemed to thrive on media attention, bantering with journalists and honing his skills at artfully dodging questions.

He repeatedly mentioned that Mormons were just ordinary people, trying to live simple, moral lives. He downplayed controversial aspects of the church's history, especially polygamy.

"It was a very limited practice, carefully safeguarded. In 1890, that practice was discontinued," Hinckley told CNN interviewer Larry King. "That's 118 years ago. It's behind us."

While that didn't satisfy critics who argued that the church continued sanctioning polygamous marriages into the early decades of the 20th century and that it's still part of the church's scriptures, it went a long way toward eliminating Mormonism's image as strange and foreign.

Hinckley also took his message of normalcy to other countries as he dedicated temples there. He launched a series of "cultural nights" where members in the region could gather in giant stadiums to show off their unique traditions and talents. Such giant public events helped mute the suspicion of this American church.

It also elevated Hinckley in the eyes of local members.

When Hinckley entered those arenas - or, indeed, in any large gathering of the faithful - the crowd instinctively stood up and grew suddenly silent.

Yet such hero worship had its downside. He could never take a stroll on Salt Lake City's Main Street Plaza or a city park without being besieged. As he recovered from his 2006 surgery in a Salt Lake hospital, he was virtually imprisoned in his room to protect him from well-meaning intrusions.

To the end, Hinckley faced head on the seduction of veneration.

"Adulation is a disease I fight every day," Hinckley said.

On the homefront
Though he was constantly looking beyond the Wasatch Mountains, Hinckley never lost sight of the importance of Salt Lake City as the church's headquarters. He built goodwill by opening the Tabernacle on Temple Square to interfaith groups, by creating an Inner City Mission to help people find their way out of poverty, illness and addiction, and by contributing to the restoration of the Catholic Cathedral of the Madeleine and Westminster College of Salt Lake City.

In February 2004, as his wife Marjorie lay dying, Hinckley's secretary called homeless advocate Pamela Atkinson to say the president "was very concerned with the very cold weather we were having." He wondered how they were managing and wanted to give some of his own money to Atkinson to help them, Atkinson said.

"That was the third time Hinckley did this," she recalled. "Here's a man who is a leader of a worldwide church, his wife is not well, and he thinks about homeless people and how he can help. I was taken aback and in awe."
For all his sensitivity to outsiders, though, Hinckley sometimes charged ahead without anticipating the anger his actions might generate.
The prime example was in 1997, when the LDS Church bought a block of Main Street from Salt Lake City to extend its headquarters, closing it to traffic and eliminating free expression there.

The move was opposed by many residents, some of whom joined an unsuccessful lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union. As the suit progressed through the courts, various groups emerged, notably the Alliance for Unity, to try to salve the hurt on both sides.

Then came the 2002 Winter Olympics. Hinckley promised the church would not use the occasion to proselytize and instructed his missionaries in Utah to stand down. Mormon volunteers even took a class in how to break the habit of preaching the Mormon gospel. Utahns from every religious group worked shoulder to shoulder in hopes that Salt Lake would take its place as a worldly, welcoming city.

During the Games, President George W. and Laura Bush, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, German President Johannes Rau and many other national and international dignitaries all paid courtesy calls on Hinckley.

He watched most of the 2002 Olympic events on TV and was especially wowed by the half-pipe snowboard gyrotechnics. What could be more American - and normal - than that?
pstack@sltrib.com

Los Broncos
01-27-2008, 11:44 PM
My mother is a little upset over this.

REB
01-28-2008, 12:14 AM
RIP Mr. Hinckley

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 12:15 AM
So long to another religious racketeer.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 12:46 AM
So long to another religious racketeer.

Classy. ::)

SoCalBronco
01-28-2008, 12:57 AM
RIP Mr. Hinckley. :(

I'm not Mormon, but from reading that article, it seems like he was definitely a great servant to his faith and an outstanding human being as well. Rest in peace, sir.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 01:18 AM
I've been here listening to what other religious leaders have said about Hinckley. One of his "things" as President was to reach out to other religions in acceptance - something that has been surprisingly reciprocated by non-LDS religious leaders here. These men speak of him as a friend.

They just had the Bishop of the Salt Lake Diocese of the Catholic church on. He was transferred to that position a year ago. I can't imagine it's a calling most would want - considering the very small minority of Catholics in Utah. He said one of his first experiences here was getting invited to lunch with President Hinckley.

His business background was in PR, and he did a great job doing PR for the Church - answering difficult questions on 60 Minutes, Larry King, to Time and Newsweek Magazines, etc. But most of all was his renowned kindness for anyone and everyone he'd come across. If I could only teach my children one quality in their lives, it would be kindness.

Bronco Yoda
01-28-2008, 01:23 AM
This reminds me.... When is 'Big Love' season going to start? I just love that show!

TailgateNut
01-28-2008, 09:37 AM
I heard his take on gays this morning on the early news. Just wonderful. It was ok for them to marry multiple partners, but those evil gays are sick!:giggle:

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 10:06 AM
I heard his take on gays this morning on the early news. Just wonderful. It was ok for them to marry multiple partners, but those evil gays are sick!:giggle:

Care to share?

Quite simply, you are not allowed to be gay and a member of the LDS Church. This isn't about hate or bigotry, although you are welcome to believe what you wish. Mormons believe that procreation is an important part of eternal progression, and it is a commandment. When Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, they were told, "Be fruitful and multiply." Part of the reason Mormons are known for having big (and strong) families is this doctrine.

So, in this context, it would seem pretty clear why homosexuality might be a bit of a non-starter in the LDS Church. But President Hinckley said in 1998, "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God." However, he says, loving them doesn't mean allowing them to remain members of the church. "To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families."

I don't know people here that are hateful to homosexuals. But the doctrine is what it is. Being loving and kind is a different thing than having them practice in a religion in which their lifestyle, by nature, disallows them from participating in the very foundation of the religion.

TailgateNut
01-28-2008, 10:10 AM
Care to share?

Quite simply, you are not allowed to be gay and a member of the LDS Church. This isn't about hate or bigotry, although you are welcome to believe what you wish. Mormons believe that procreation is an important part of eternal progression, and it is a commandment. When Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, they were told, "Be fruitful and multiply." Part of the reason Mormons are known for having big (and strong) families is this doctrine.

So, in this context, it would seem pretty clear why homosexuality might be a bit of a non-starter in the LDS Church. But President Hinckley said in 1998, "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God." However, he says, loving them doesn't mean allowing them to remain members of the church. "To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families."

I don't know people here that are hateful to homosexuals. But the doctrine is what it is. Being loving and kind is a different thing than having them practice in a religion in which their lifestyle, by nature, disallows them from participating in the very foundation of the religion.


The number one statement which should be made by ANY religion is "WE ARE NOT ALL CREATED EQUAL, AND IF YOU'RE NOT LIKE US, YOU ARE SICK". That about covers it!

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 10:12 AM
Care to share?

Quite simply, you are not allowed to be gay and a member of the LDS Church. This isn't about hate or bigotry, although you are welcome to believe what you wish. Mormons believe that procreation is an important part of eternal progression, and it is a commandment. When Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, they were told, "Be fruitful and multiply." Part of the reason Mormons are known for having big (and strong) families is this doctrine.

So, in this context, it would seem pretty clear why homosexuality might be a bit of a non-starter in the LDS Church. But President Hinckley said in 1998, "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God." However, he says, loving them doesn't mean allowing them to remain members of the church. "To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families."

I don't know people here that are hateful to homosexuals. But the doctrine is what it is. Being loving and kind is a different thing than having them practice in a religion in which their lifestyle, by nature, disallows them from participating in the very foundation of the religion.

What about Mormons who are impotent or otherwise unable to to bear children? They cannot adhere to that commandment either.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 10:14 AM
The number one statement which should be made by ANY religion is "WE ARE NOT ALL CREATED EQUAL, AND IF YOU'RE NOT LIKE US, YOU ARE SICK". That about covers it!

Okay, whatever. I explained the reasoning behind it. I don't see it as "hating homosexuals" in any way. But you are entitled to believe whatever you want.

TailgateNut
01-28-2008, 10:17 AM
I don't see it as "hating homosexuals" in any way.

He was just feeling sorry for them, because they are SICK. NOW I understand.ROFL! Don't worry, yours' is not the only religion which practices this thype of "love"!

Spider
01-28-2008, 10:20 AM
I dont have the same distain for this guy as I do Falwell ..alot of that could be because I never heard of this person , but I doubt he was as hatefull as Falwell .....

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 10:20 AM
Okay, whatever. I explained the reasoning behind it. I don't see it as "hating homosexuals" in any way. But you are entitled to believe whatever you want.

It's at the very least patronizing.

The whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" line is a bunch of BS. It's just bigotry with a warm smile and a pat on the head.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 10:33 AM
What about Mormons who are impotent or otherwise unable to to bear children? They cannot adhere to that commandment either.

That's an excellent question, and one with an answer that is far less black and white.

The LDS Church is the only religion I know that believes all people will be resurrected with perfect bodies of flesh and bone (most religions teach that only one's spiritual self will continue on). Mormons believe that Christ overcoming physical death provided said resurrection for everybody, regardless of what they believed in their mortal life. So, a problem as you describe wouldn't be a non-starter for a person eternally - it would just be as such in their mortal life.

Furthermore, we believe the family unit to be a model of our heavenly family - where we had a Father and a Mother. (This is one of the areas in which we get labeled as "cultists" by the evangelical crowd. A Heavenly Mother? Blaspheme!)

I don't expect everyone to agree with every policy of LDS theology. But some act as if the LDS policy regarding homosexuality is like that of, say, Fred Phelps. That's laughable. Homosexuals cannot be full-standing members of the LDS Church. But there isn't hatred for them. At the end of the day, a bigot won't be a full-standing member of the LDS Church, either.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
01-28-2008, 10:35 AM
Mormons believe that procreation is an important part of eternal progression, and it is a commandment. When Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, they were told, "Be fruitful and multiply."

Even though the planet is already so overpopulated that it's nearing its carrying capacity?

I know the Church of the LDS isn't the only church to espouse the aforementioned procreation ethic, but isn't it a little outmoded at this juncture (not to mention based on a misguided sort of of Biblical literalism?)

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 10:39 AM
Even though the planet is already so overpopulated that it's nearing its carrying capacity?

I know the Church of the LDS isn't the only church to espouse the aforementioned procreation ethic, but isn't it a little outmoded at this juncture (not to mention based on a misguided sort of of Biblical literalism?)

That is what perpetuates the religion (most religions, really). A survival mechanism, as it were. It is much easier to "create" a new believer (because they can be indoctrinated from birth) than to convert one.

TailgateNut
01-28-2008, 10:41 AM
That is what perpetuates the religion (most religions, really). A survival mechanism, as it were. It is much easier to "create" a new believer (because they can be indoctrinated from birth) than to convert one.


You are on the ball today!:notworthy

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 10:42 AM
He was just feeling sorry for them, because they are SICK. NOW I understand.ROFL! Don't worry, yours' is not the only religion which practices this thype of "love"!

You see it as patronizing, and I understand that. It's a complex issue - one that generates varying opinions.

But again, as much as you would like to make it black and white - it isn't black and white. If saying, "show kindness" is condescending - then I guess it's condescending. But it seems preferable to the alternative.

TailgateNut
01-28-2008, 10:44 AM
. But it seems preferable to the alternative.


Preferrable, yes. Ideal, No!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
01-28-2008, 10:45 AM
That is what perpetuates the religion (most religions, really). A survival mechanism, as it were. It is much easier to "create" a new believer (because they can be indoctrinated from birth) than to convert one.

You could say the same thing about any social group, but what about concern for the planet and the human species as a whole?

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 10:47 AM
That's an excellent question, and one with an answer that is far less black and white.

The LDS Church is the only religion I know that believes all people will be resurrected with perfect bodies of flesh and bone (most religions teach that only one's spiritual self will continue on). Mormons believe that Christ overcoming physical death provided said resurrection for everybody, regardless of what they believed in their mortal life. So, a problem as you describe wouldn't be a non-starter for a person eternally - it would just be as such in their mortal life.

So, is the belief that people will continue (or, I guess, "start" in the case of those impotent on Earth) to procreate in the after-life?

Furthermore, we believe the family unit to be a model of our heavenly family - where we had a Father and a Mother. (This is one of the areas in which we get labeled as "cultists" by the evangelical crowd. A Heavenly Mother? Blaspheme!)

Is the "Father" figure thought to be God, or is this an altogether separate entity? Who is the Mother?

I don't expect everyone to agree with every policy of LDS theology. But some act as if the LDS policy regarding homosexuality is like that of, say, Fred Phelps. That's laughable. Homosexuals cannot be full-standing members of the LDS Church. But there isn't hatred for them. At the end of the day, a bigot won't be a full-standing member of the LDS Church, either.

Well, maybe not "hate" per se, but it's definitely, as I stated before, quite patronizing to say in effect, "You can't be in the club, but we love you!" A softer variant of bigotry, perhaps, but bigotry nonetheless.

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 10:51 AM
You could say the same thing about any social group, but what about concern for the planet and the human species as a whole?

The end of time is in God's hands. Nothing we puny humans can do will alter the planned time of the Rapture for even one second. So pollution, global warming, and overpopulation are just red herrings.

(Or some such variant of that line of thinking).

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
01-28-2008, 10:56 AM
The end of time is in God's hands. Nothing we puny humans can do will alter the planned time of the Rapture for even one second. So pollution, global warming, and overpopulation are just red herrings.

(Or some such variant of that line of thinking).

Yikes!

Scary to know there are people out there who genuinely believe this sort of thing, huh?

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 10:57 AM
Even though the planet is already so overpopulated that it's nearing its carrying capacity?

I know the Church of the LDS isn't the only church to espouse the aforementioned procreation ethic, but isn't it a little outmoded at this juncture (not to mention based on a misguided sort of of Biblical literalism?)

I don't know if you're a father? I can say that there's nothing that gives me more happiness and fulfillment than my family. We're, unfortunately, done having our own kids (we have two). But we've already started looking into opportunities for adoption.

We are doing our best to raise children that are a net positive to society. What you are saying about overpopulation is a bit short-sighted, no? Wasn't it Immanuel Kant that had the Formula of Universal Law (I may have butchered that) - that you take a maxim and hypothetically apply it to everyone? Well, if I understand your position correctly, wouldn't mankind have about a 100-year shelf life, give or take?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
01-28-2008, 11:01 AM
Well, if I understand your position correctly, wouldn't mankind have about a 100-year shelf life, give or take?

I was thinking more along the lines of controlling population growth - not eliminating procreation altogether.

China has a good policy (despite its obvious problems applied to that culture.)

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 11:12 AM
So, is the belief that people will continue (or, I guess, "start" in the case of those impotent on Earth) to procreate in the after-life?

Essentially, yes. The belief is that said procreation is a benefit, and must be earned (according to the type of person you are in mortality).

Is the "Father" figure thought to be God, or is this an altogether separate entity? Who is the Mother?

Yes on question one. As for question two, there really isn't a reference to a Heavenly Mother in traditional scripture - LDS or other. Most Mormons simply imply that to have a Father, one must also have a Mother. And LDS theology teaches that a man cannot fully progress without a woman, and a woman cannot fully progress without a man.

Well, maybe not "hate" per se, but it's definitely, as I stated before, quite patronizing to say in effect, "You can't be in the club, but we love you!" A softer variant of bigotry, perhaps, but bigotry nonetheless.

Like I said, I understand your opinion. And I don't disagree with it, necessarily. But exclusion is a part of nearly every aspect of life, let alone religion. Would you argue with that? Some of it is well defined (Boy and Girl Scouts, for example); while some of it is just implied, but devoutly followed (every form of bigotry). To put it differently, there are prerequisites for everything. You pick and choose what you do in your life based on prerequisites.

Wouldn't you agree that the world would be an entirely different place if people would simply agree to be kind to those that have achieved a different set of prerequisites than they? I won't say that all Mormons are there, but they are supposed to strive to be there.

TailgateNut
01-28-2008, 11:16 AM
Wouldn't you agree that the world would be an entirely different place if people would simply agree to be kind to those that have achieved a different set of prerequisites than they?

Achieved a different set of prerequisites?

How about the value of a human being, regardless of gender, race and orientation.

alkemical
01-28-2008, 11:18 AM
Achieved a different set of prerequisites?

How about the value of a human being, regardless of gender, race and orientation.

Yeah, i don't think any human is really there.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 11:19 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of controlling population growth - not eliminating procreation altogether.

China has a good policy (despite its obvious problems applied to that culture.)

Well, that's a bit of a slippery slope - one on which it's absolutely impossible to gain consistent footing, in my opinion.

A good general rule would be, "Procreation should only be done by responsible people, who will teach their children to contribute to the betterment of the world."

More slippery still (I'm pretty sure it's been tried, and it didn't turn out so well).

And the thing about China - I'm glad you added the part in parenthesis. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a single real scenario where you wouldn't have to add parenthesis of some sort - and therein lies the problem.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 11:34 AM
Achieved a different set of prerequisites?

How about the value of a human being, regardless of gender, race and orientation.

I don't see it as valuing or devaluing a human being. But I don't think I am going to convince you of that. And in this case, prerequisite can be defined as "rule." I bet if I spent a day with you, I could find a hundred self-defined rules by which you personally abide.

All I can say is that I don't personally feel that I have any negative feelings towards homosexuals. But I do personally believe that being parents is an essential part of our eternal progression. I don't know of a way in which nature allows a homosexual couple to do that. It's as simple as that. It doesn't cause me to hate them, or even to judge what they do - any more than I hate or judge a person that chooses to go through life as a bachelor.

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 11:38 AM
Like I said, I understand your opinion. And I don't disagree with it, necessarily. But exclusion is a part of nearly every aspect of life, let alone religion. Would you argue with that? Some of it is well defined (Boy and Girl Scouts, for example); while some of it is just implied, but devoutly followed (every form of bigotry). To put it differently, there are prerequisites for everything. You pick and choose what you do in your life based on prerequisites.

I see what you're getting at, but aren't the stakes much higher here (if you are a Mormon, at any rate)? I mean, the non-Mormon is going to spend eternity in hell, right? That's pretty serious stuff, beyond the normal choices one makes in life.

Wouldn't you agree that the world would be an entirely different place if people would simply agree to be kind to those that have achieved a different set of prerequisites than they? I won't say that all Mormons are there, but they are supposed to strive to be there.

Sure, but it is hard to take tokens of kindness seriously if you know in advance that the person holds a belief that condemns you to burning anguish in the here after. I realize that that isn't at the forefront of your mind (or probably most Mormons for that matter), but it presents quite a barrier for any kind of true understanding to take place. In order for it to work, you basically have to set the religion to the side (or, at least, certain aspects of it) in order for someone to understand the kindness as genuine and not patronizing or a sales pitch. But, that being the case, what does that say about the religion?

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 12:06 PM
To clarify what I'm trying to say above, there are certain tenets of Mormonism (and most religions) that if not adhered to is judged as evil and condemns an individual. Now, in order to be kind to someone and really mean it, don't you have to put all of that out of your head--essentially forgot about those tenets of your faith? And, if so, isn't that very telling about the merit of those tenets (or, at the very least, how those tenets relate to humanitarian ideas like tolerance, charity and universal kindness)?

alkemical
01-28-2008, 12:10 PM
To clarify what I'm trying to say above, there are certain tenets of Mormonism (and most religions) that if not adhered to is judged as evil and condemns an individual. Now, in order to be kind to someone and really mean it, don't you have to put all of that out of your head--essentially forgot about those tenets of your faith? And, if so, isn't that very telling about the merit of those tenets (or, at the very least, how those tenets relate to humanitarian ideas like tolerance, charity and universal kindness)?

I dunno - i know when i hung with the Krshna's - they did all their giving in service of Krshna. So if you are pointing to "intent", well i'd sort of agree with you. if you are only doing something "because" - then you aren't really doing it out of "love", etc.

But since, people aren't SUPPOSED to judge, and are to LOVE - (that's the idealism of it) - they'd be doing it out of LOVE.

But judging people and casting "others" out of their own social clique is a past-time. No matter what religion, creed, social status, etc - we are all more or less guilty of it to some extent, and at some time. Not that i'm excusing it, just an observation.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 12:17 PM
I see what you're getting at, but aren't the stakes much higher here (if you are a Mormon, at any rate)? I mean, the non-Mormon is going to spend eternity in hell, right? That's pretty serious stuff, beyond the normal choices one makes in life.

Well, yes and no. Mormons don't believe in hell, in a literal sense. There is no fiery place where "sinners" go for eternity. We do believe in a place where certain people spend eternity separated from God - but even that is for what would comprise an extremely small portion of mankind (like some murderers). Otherwise, we believe in different degrees of glory. Those that achieve the lowest degree of glory will still be in a place far better than the earth, as we know it.

But on another level, we do believe that there will be prerequisites to achieve the highest degree of glory. One of those prerequisites is procreation. Is that semantics? I personally don't think so.

Part of the reason why I ever became Mormon (when I was 19) was because I couldn't grasp the concept of a loving God that would send the vast majority of his children to eternal pain and misery. It just doesn't gibe with what we innately know of fatherhood.

So back to the issue above. I don't believe that a homosexual is loved any less by God than a non-homosexual.

But I'll give you an analogy. Let's say I am a happy man with two sons. Both of my sons look at what I have achieved in my life, and desire the same. The first son grows up, works hard at life, marries someone he loves, starts a family, etc. He's as happy as a man can possibly be. The second son makes different choices. He is a hard worker, but he chooses a profession in which he doesn't have the earning ability of his brother. He marries, but decides he's not interested in having children. One day, he comes to me and says, "My brother has things that I don't have." Well, right or wrong, I point out that his brother made different choices. I don't love his brother more, but I understand how each of their paths led to where they are.

Sure, but it is hard to take tokens of kindness seriously if you know in advance that the person holds a belief that condemns you to burning anguish in the here after. I realize that that isn't at the forefront of your mind (or probably most Mormons for that matter), but it presents quite a barrier for any kind of true understanding to take place. In order for it to work, you basically have to set the religion to the side (or, at least, certain aspects of it) in order for someone to understand the kindness as genuine and not patronizing or a sales pitch. But, that being the case, what does that say about the religion?

See above. If you believe the ability to procreate to be a gift (as a father, I think that is an apt description), then the choice not to use that gift doesn't condemn a person to eternal punishment. But it might deprive them of certain eternal rewards.

Bob
01-28-2008, 01:54 PM
Care to share?

Quite simply, you are not allowed to be gay and a member of the LDS Church. This isn't about hate or bigotry, although you are welcome to believe what you wish. Mormons believe that procreation is an important part of eternal progression, and it is a commandment. When Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, they were told, "Be fruitful and multiply." Part of the reason Mormons are known for having big (and strong) families is this doctrine.

So, in this context, it would seem pretty clear why homosexuality might be a bit of a non-starter in the LDS Church. But President Hinckley said in 1998, "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God." However, he says, loving them doesn't mean allowing them to remain members of the church. "To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families."

I don't know people here that are hateful to homosexuals. But the doctrine is what it is. Being loving and kind is a different thing than having them practice in a religion in which their lifestyle, by nature, disallows them from participating in the very foundation of the religion.

Dont dont get sucked into it... not with this...

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 01:55 PM
I dunno - i know when i hung with the Krshna's - they did all their giving in service of Krshna. So if you are pointing to "intent", well i'd sort of agree with you. if you are only doing something "because" - then you aren't really doing it out of "love", etc.

But since, people aren't SUPPOSED to judge, and are to LOVE - (that's the idealism of it) - they'd be doing it out of LOVE.

But judging people and casting "others" out of their own social clique is a past-time. No matter what religion, creed, social status, etc - we are all more or less guilty of it to some extent, and at some time. Not that i'm excusing it, just an observation.

Did you ever hand out books at the airport? I got a copy of the Bhagavad Gita when I was going through DIA seven or eight years ago. I gave them $20 (the only cash I had on me at the time) - they seemed to be really nice guys. And that job would suck. People are in a hurry, and there's a stereotype to it. But they weren't pushy, and I know firsthand how discouraging it can be.

Do they still do that? I haven't seen anyone doing it in a long, long time. Were you full-on into it? Why did you leave (if you don't mind me asking)?

alkemical
01-28-2008, 02:11 PM
Did you ever hand out books at the airport? I got a copy of the Bhagavad Gita when I was going through DIA seven or eight years ago. I gave them $20 (the only cash I had on me at the time) - they seemed to be really nice guys. And that job would suck. People are in a hurry, and there's a stereotype to it. But they weren't pushy, and I know firsthand how discouraging it can be.

Do they still do that? I haven't seen anyone doing it in a long, long time. Were you full-on into it? Why did you leave (if you don't mind me asking)?

Oh i wasn't a devotee. In seattle they had a free vegetarian resteraunt... It was called "my sweet lord" and was funded by the george harrison foundation....
So i didn't go and do all the things they did. But i did play drums for them on their little parades through town. I thought they were nice people, i was never ever pushed to 'convert' to them. I had lots of discussions with their "guru" (I don't know/remember the official title).

But that place had a true sense of peace, they had their own rituals. Like the first plate of food served went to the Krshna statue/temple in the place. they had "story hour" before dinner - but you didn't have to be there to get fed.

I know i ran into one at a festival, and he had copies he was handing out - but he didn't seem zealous in his delivery. I got a copy from them for free and i loved reading it. I still do.

It's one reason why i feel that.... eastern thought applied to the bible makes more sense out of the bible. I think that way of thinking is closer to...how the writers of the bible wrote the bible. It's not full of western semantics, etc.

Just my POV.

Bob
01-28-2008, 02:16 PM
I see what you're getting at, but aren't the stakes much higher here (if you are a Mormon, at any rate)? I mean, the non-Mormon is going to spend eternity in hell, right? That's pretty serious stuff, beyond the normal choices one makes in life.

No -- but that is always assumed by those who are uncomfortable with issues of faith. LDS folks have a pretty inclusive view on this -- there may be other faiths that are not.

We are all accountable before God -- yes. Howevere, eventually all will inherit at least something called the telestial kingdom -- which would be described exactly like how most Christains think Heaven will be like -- a place so wonderful one would kill themselves to get there (if they could look into it.) LDS folks do not believe in a hell that will last forever for those who are born. There is an exception for those that literally see God and then fight against him (and how many are in that group-- not more than dozen in the history of the world?)



Sure, but it is hard to take tokens of kindness seriously if you know in advance that the person holds a belief that condemns you to burning anguish in the here after. This is a Calvinistic view I realize that that isn't at the forefront of your mind (or probably most Mormons for that matter), but it presents quite a barrier for any kind of true understanding to take place. In order for it to work, you basically have to set the religion to the side (or, at least, certain aspects of it) in order for someone to understand the kindness as genuine and not patronizing or a sales pitch. But, that being the case, what does that say about the religion?

If you have an ounce of compassion may I suggest that you leave this topic alone? Maybe the kind thing to do would be to discuss issues of our faith outside the context of the death of someone we respect so much? I am asking this sincerely for those on this bord -- when Hilary dies, or a great thinker like Carl Sagan -- or a religous leader -- maybe that would be the time to extend real tolerance to those who you may feel exibit little?

I know petitions for kindness on the Internet, and here will likely be dismissed, but we are Broncos fans -- not Raider fans... ;)

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 02:31 PM
Fair enough, Bob. Thanks to you and Dom for clarifying some of those facets of your dogma.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 02:52 PM
Fair enough, Bob. Thanks to you and Dom for clarifying some of those facets of your dogma.

I don't have a problem with it, to be honest (excluding the racketeer comment). I don't expect to convert anyone. But I think only good comes from an honest exchange of beliefs.

As for the death of President Hinckley, I feel okay about it. He was 97 years old - he had a long, productive life. He was lucid up until the time of his death, but he was clearly lonely after his wife died a few years ago. And while I don't expect non-Mormons to know him quite as well, this was a great man! We're talking about someone who lived a humble life of service to others - both Mormon and non-Mormon. When I die, I hope I can leave a fraction of the positive legacy left by Gordon B. Hinckley.

alkemical
01-28-2008, 02:54 PM
I don't have a problem with it, to be honest (excluding the racketeer comment). I don't expect to convert anyone. But I think only good comes from an honest exchange of beliefs.

As for the death of President Hinckley, I feel okay about it. He was 97 years old - he had a long, productive life. He was lucid up until the time of his death, but he was clearly lonely after his wife died a few years ago. And while I don't expect non-Mormons to know him quite as well, this was a great man! We're talking about someone who lived a humble life of service to others - both Mormon and non-Mormon. When I die, I hope I can leave a fraction of the positive legacy left by Gordon B. Hinckley.

Blessed Be~

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 03:04 PM
Blessed Be~

And blessed be again! :)

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 03:19 PM
I don't have a problem with it, to be honest (excluding the racketeer comment). I don't expect to convert anyone. But I think only good comes from an honest exchange of beliefs.

Well, good. Then I'll continue :)

I'm interested in this "levels of heaven" thing. How many are there? How does one end up in, say, level three instead of level one? If everyone except the absolute worst eventually wind up in some level of heaven, where is the incentive to be a Mormon? I mean, if you were to try and get me to convert, and that tid-bit came up, I'd might just say, "Well, great, I'm going to heaven regardless, I won't worry about it."

Oh, and I'm truly not trying to be a smart-ass here (or at least only a little bit of one ;D), but what about the body suit thing for sex? You know, the suit with the hole in the crotch? Is that still part of the mainstream LDS church, or has that been done away with? That just sounds plain bizarre (and not much fun either!).

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 03:45 PM
Well, good. Then I'll continue :)

I'm interested in this "levels of heaven" thing. How many are there? How does one end up in, say, level three instead of level one? If everyone except the absolute worst eventually wind up in some level of heaven, where is the incentive to be a Mormon? I mean, if you were to try and get me to convert, and that tid-bit came up, I'd might just say, "Well, great, I'm going to heaven regardless, I won't worry about it."

Well, there's a big difference. In only the highest of the three levels can you eternally progress. So, while everything else might be beautiful, it's stagnant. You are where you are. For eternity. While that might not seem too bad - we're talking about eternity. The whole "streets of gold" thing (as referenced by every evangelical christian I've ever talked to) would be kind of cool, for awhile. But I've never been on a vacation where I didn't eventually want to get home. Most of us need to feel we are progressing in our lives to truly be happy.

As for requirements for the different levels, you get there by the grace of God, after all you can do. This is another (perhaps the main) thing that gets evangelicals all into a lather about Mormons. We definitely believe we're saved by grace - that our own efforts aren't sufficient to save us. But we don't believe that said grace, in and of itself, will save us, either. It takes both. It's a two-way contract.

The best way I can think of to describe the requirements is self-mastery. We believe in most of the same commandments as a lot of religions, with a few notable additions (coffee, as an example) and exceptions (we dance, as a trivial example). I see the commandments as serving two purposes: first, they protect us from ourselves and others ("Thou shalt not kill" has obvious implications); but second, they teach us to master ourselves. A sports car is fun to drive. A sports car on an icy road - not so much. True happiness lies in being able to pick and choose the things you do, rather than being a slave to them.

Oh, and I'm truly not trying to be a smart-ass here (or at least only a little bit of one ;D), but what about the body suit thing for sex? You know, the suit with the hole in the crotch? Is that still part of the mainstream LDS church, or has that been done away with? That just sounds plain bizarre (and not much fun either!).

Man, I figured I had heard it all - but you've got me on that one. I can't imagine where that comes from - even as a distortion of something we really do (the way most things start). Is the suit made of latex? That might actually be kind of cool, albeit a little inconvenient for those spur-of-the-moment opportunities. :)

alkemical
01-28-2008, 03:47 PM
interesting POV dom - thanks

BroncoInferno
01-28-2008, 04:05 PM
Dom, I might have the body suit thing mixed up with another religion. I'm at work at the moment, so I obviously don't want to google "body suit sex" at work, but I'll double check when I get home ;D

24champ
01-28-2008, 06:34 PM
Sorry to hear about Hinckley...RIP.

What's the process like for Mormons to select it's next president?

Hotrod
01-28-2008, 06:44 PM
The number one statement which should be made by ANY religion is "WE ARE NOT ALL CREATED EQUAL, AND IF YOU'RE NOT LIKE US, YOU ARE SICK". That about covers it!

Hmm sounds like to me someone was not allowed to join the mormon church and in turn became a hater.........wonder why? Ha!

Sorry I could not help myself.

DomCasual
01-28-2008, 07:05 PM
Sorry to hear about Hinckley...RIP.

What's the process like for Mormons to select it's next president?

Historically, it's been passed on to the most senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. In this case, that's Thomas S. Monson. He's pretty popular in the church, and in seemingly good health. They'll likely wait until the funeral has passed by a few days, then make an announcement.

TailgateNut
01-28-2008, 07:06 PM
Hmm sounds like to me someone was not allowed to join the mormon church and in turn became a hater.........wonder why? Ha!

Sorry I could not help myself.


Yeah, that why I said ANY RELIGION.

gunns
01-29-2008, 12:21 AM
I don't have a problem with it, to be honest (excluding the racketeer comment). I don't expect to convert anyone. But I think only good comes from an honest exchange of beliefs.

As for the death of President Hinckley, I feel okay about it. He was 97 years old - he had a long, productive life. He was lucid up until the time of his death, but he was clearly lonely after his wife died a few years ago. And while I don't expect non-Mormons to know him quite as well, this was a great man! We're talking about someone who lived a humble life of service to others - both Mormon and non-Mormon. When I die, I hope I can leave a fraction of the positive legacy left by Gordon B. Hinckley.


Not a practicing Mormon but have to say I was touched by the news of President Hinckley's death. A marvelous man who was a wonderful example of Mormon's. Wonderul sense of humor. While I have respect for the Mormon religion I struggle with some of their doctrine. But I would find that with any religion. None of that has anything to do with this man, a great example of how we should all behave towards our fellow human beings. I'm truly happy for the man who has rejoined his much beloved Marjorie.

You do a great job defending, or should I say explaining, the Mormon Church Dom. Kudos.

DomCasual
01-31-2008, 12:17 PM
Well, President Hinckley must have done something right with his life. The Fred Phelps merry band of idiots will be at his funeral protesting.

Church group plans protest at Pres. Hinckley's funeral

By Jared Page
Deseret Morning News
Published: Thursday, Jan. 31, 2008 12:26 a.m. MST

The tens of thousands of people expected to flock downtown for President Gordon B. Hinckley's funeral Saturday likely will want to avoid the southwest corner of North Temple and State Street.

Salt Lake City officials said the Westboro Baptist Church has applied for a permit for a "religious demonstration" on the corner, just one block east of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Conference Center, where President Hinckley's funeral will be held. The permit was in the process of being approved Wednesday afternoon, said Shawn McDonough, the city's special events administrator.

A handful of members of the church, based in Topeka, Kan., plan to stage a quiet protest during the funeral, displaying picket signs criticizing the late LDS Church leader for being a "lying false prophet" and "leading millions of people astray," said Shirley Phelps-Roper, Westboro Baptist Church spokeswoman and daughter of Pastor Fred Phelps.

Westboro Baptist Church members have picketed several military funerals and other memorial services, saying that the war in Iraq and tragedies such as the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks are God's punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality.

Phelps-Roper also criticized President Hinckley for being too accepting of homosexuals, accusing him of having an "ambiguous voice" about the gay lifestyle rather than taking a firm stand against it.

President Hinckley died Sunday evening after nearly 13 years at the head of the LDS Church. Funeral services are set to begin at 11 a.m. Saturday at the Conference Center, 60 W. North Temple.

Salt Lake police will be handling traffic and crowd control for the funeral, as well as enforcing state law and city guidelines for protesting during funerals, said Det. Jared Wihongi.

Legislation sponsored by Rep. Ron Bigelow, R-West Valley City, and passed by the Utah Legislature last year makes it a class B misdemeanor to demonstrate in a noisy and disruptive manner within 200 feet of a funeral or memorial service from an hour before the funeral to an hour after the service.

The law prohibits protesters from blocking or impeding a funeral procession, but it doesn't ban them from quietly demonstrating in view of those attending the funeral or along the procession route.

In addition, Salt Lake City's permitting process for protests makes it clear to applicants that they cannot touch or attempt to restrain people to get them to listen to their message, and that "fighting words" — personal insults likely to create a violent reaction — are not protected by the First Amendment.

Wihongi said police have the responsibility to maintain order and civility by protecting the protesters' free-speech rights as well as the rights of the general public.

"If they have a permit, they're allowed to be there," he said, "but we'll definitely be enforcing the law."

Police will determine whether the demonstration meets the guidelines of protected free speech. Phelps-Roper, who will not be among the protesters in Salt Lake City on Saturday, said at least one of the picket signs will read, "Hinckley is in hell."

Wihongi said the planned demonstration creates potential for altercations between the protesters and those attending the funeral. He advises people who don't agree with the protesters' message to avoid them or at least ignore them.

"They want an audience," Wihongi said. "They want conflict. If people are aware that (protesters) are going to be there, they can prepare themselves to deal emotionally with that and avoid them if they can."

Members of the Westboro Baptist Church have protested in Utah before. In June, three members of the group demonstrated a few blocks away from a funeral of a South Jordan soldier. The protesters held signs displaying messages such as "pray for more dead soldiers."

The group also was among protesters who flocked to Salt Lake City during the 2002 Olympic Games. Its members previously protested outside the Conference Center in October 2001. The group has scheduled protests for a handful of other funerals in recent years but didn't show up.

LDS Church officials declined to comment Wednesday on the Westboro Baptist Church or its planned protest.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695248839,00.html

cutthemdown
01-31-2008, 12:25 PM
When it comes to what Heaven is I don't think any words or religion can describe it. Streets of gold Dom is a very generic way of stating what the Christians believe heaven is. I'm no expert but I thought it was more described as being with your loved ones, no sadness, no sickness, and complete joy all the time. Whether streets are gold or not that sound pretty good. I wouldn't start trying to say that the Mormon view of heaven with it's multiple levels could be any better then that.

Rohirrim
01-31-2008, 12:38 PM
"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Luke 17:21

baja
01-31-2008, 01:48 PM
"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Luke 17:21

No truer words will be 'spoken' here.

Bob
01-31-2008, 07:22 PM
Well, President Hinckley must have done something right with his life. The Fred Phelps merry band of idiots will be at his funeral protesting.

Church group plans protest at Pres. Hinckley's funeral

By Jared Page
Deseret Morning News
Published: Thursday, Jan. 31, 2008 12:26 a.m. MST

The tens of thousands of people expected to flock downtown for President Gordon B. Hinckley's funeral Saturday likely will want to avoid the southwest corner of North Temple and State Street.

Salt Lake City officials said the Westboro Baptist Church has applied for a permit for a "religious demonstration" on the corner, just one block east of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Conference Center, where President Hinckley's funeral will be held. The permit was in the process of being approved Wednesday afternoon, said Shawn McDonough, the city's special events administrator.

A handful of members of the church, based in Topeka, Kan., plan to stage a quiet protest during the funeral, displaying picket signs criticizing the late LDS Church leader for being a "lying false prophet" and "leading millions of people astray," said Shirley Phelps-Roper, Westboro Baptist Church spokeswoman and daughter of Pastor Fred Phelps.

Westboro Baptist Church members have picketed several military funerals and other memorial services, saying that the war in Iraq and tragedies such as the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks are God's punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality.

Phelps-Roper also criticized President Hinckley for being too accepting of homosexuals, accusing him of having an "ambiguous voice" about the gay lifestyle rather than taking a firm stand against it.

President Hinckley died Sunday evening after nearly 13 years at the head of the LDS Church. Funeral services are set to begin at 11 a.m. Saturday at the Conference Center, 60 W. North Temple.

Salt Lake police will be handling traffic and crowd control for the funeral, as well as enforcing state law and city guidelines for protesting during funerals, said Det. Jared Wihongi.

Legislation sponsored by Rep. Ron Bigelow, R-West Valley City, and passed by the Utah Legislature last year makes it a class B misdemeanor to demonstrate in a noisy and disruptive manner within 200 feet of a funeral or memorial service from an hour before the funeral to an hour after the service.

The law prohibits protesters from blocking or impeding a funeral procession, but it doesn't ban them from quietly demonstrating in view of those attending the funeral or along the procession route.

In addition, Salt Lake City's permitting process for protests makes it clear to applicants that they cannot touch or attempt to restrain people to get them to listen to their message, and that "fighting words" — personal insults likely to create a violent reaction — are not protected by the First Amendment.

Wihongi said police have the responsibility to maintain order and civility by protecting the protesters' free-speech rights as well as the rights of the general public.

"If they have a permit, they're allowed to be there," he said, "but we'll definitely be enforcing the law."

Police will determine whether the demonstration meets the guidelines of protected free speech. Phelps-Roper, who will not be among the protesters in Salt Lake City on Saturday, said at least one of the picket signs will read, "Hinckley is in hell."

Wihongi said the planned demonstration creates potential for altercations between the protesters and those attending the funeral. He advises people who don't agree with the protesters' message to avoid them or at least ignore them.

"They want an audience," Wihongi said. "They want conflict. If people are aware that (protesters) are going to be there, they can prepare themselves to deal emotionally with that and avoid them if they can."

Members of the Westboro Baptist Church have protested in Utah before. In June, three members of the group demonstrated a few blocks away from a funeral of a South Jordan soldier. The protesters held signs displaying messages such as "pray for more dead soldiers."

The group also was among protesters who flocked to Salt Lake City during the 2002 Olympic Games. Its members previously protested outside the Conference Center in October 2001. The group has scheduled protests for a handful of other funerals in recent years but didn't show up.

LDS Church officials declined to comment Wednesday on the Westboro Baptist Church or its planned protest.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695248839,00.html

Its their right -- but sounds like they "take stands" and choose "protests" hoping to egg someone to do something stupid to draw attention to thier cause -- hope no one takes them up on it....