Ron Paul to Unveil Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan

[Taco John]

Fresh off the wire:

Ron Paul to Unveil Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan

January 24, 2008 12:35 AM Eastern Time

ARLINGTON, Va.--Thursday, January 24th, Republican presidential candidate and ranking member of the House Committee on Financial Services Ron Paul will unveil a comprehensive economic reform package. The four-pronged plan is designed to stem the current economic slide and address the unsound governmental policies that are the harming the national economy.

“Most Americans are keenly aware that the economy is going in the wrong direction, and fortunately Ron Paul has the answer,” said campaign spokesman Jesse Benton. “Dr. Paul has been talking about these issues for decades and he is a leading expert in the area of monetary policy.”

The comprehensive economic revitalization plan will be available online Thursday, January 24th at: www.RonPaul2008.com

[baja]

Dr. Paul's timing is excellent. I have been waiting for this.

[baja]

TheDave's questions of 'Where's the beef' when it comes to RP's platform reflects the thoughts of many thoughtful voters so I'm glad he will be coming out with what promises to be a comprehensive economic plan and, as I said earlier, just in perfect time

[REB]

I look forward to reading it :thumbsup:

[Taco John]

I love the fact that he's calling it a "revitalization" plan, and not a "stimulus package."

This is Ron Paul's home court here...

[TailgateNut]

Fresh off the wire:

Ron Paul to Unveil Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan

January 24, 2008 12:35 AM Eastern Time

ARLINGTON, Va.--Thursday, January 24th, Republican presidential candidate and ranking member of the House Committee on Financial Services Ron Paul will unveil a comprehensive economic reform package. The four-pronged plan is designed to stem the current economic slide and address the unsound governmental policies that are the harming the national economy.

“Most Americans are keenly aware that the economy is going in the wrong direction, and fortunately Ron Paul has the answer,” said campaign spokesman Jesse Benton. “Dr. Paul has been talking about these issues for decades and he is a leading expert in the area of monetary policy.”

The comprehensive economic revitalization plan will be available online Thursday, January 24th at: www.RonPaul2008.com


"leading expert"??? according to his CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN! That must make it true!

I thought he was a leading expert in "delivering babies"!

[Crushaholic]

"leading expert"??? according to his CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN! That must make it true!

I thought he was a leading expert in "delivering babies"!

He's a multi-tasker...

[Meck77]

Nut I guess I keep missing it. Which candidate do you support and what is their plan on the economy?

[TailgateNut]

Nut I guess I keep missing it. Which candidate do you support and what is their plan on the economy?


My candidate is "Robin Hood", err; Edwards. So we are both supporting a futile cause, because the media doesn't want either of our candidates to succeed.


http://www.johnedwards.com/issues/

[Hotrod]

I have no canidate but I just cant get past the impression the good Dr. gives everytime I see him speak. He looks confused, over whelmed, dingy as hell.

[TailgateNut]

I have no canidate but I just cant get past the impression the good Dr. gives everytime I see him speak. He looks confused, over whelmed, dingy as hell.

Hence my nickname "the wet Chihuahua". I "shiver" when I think of this geek running "the show"!

[Taco John]

Introduction

America became the greatest, most prosperous nation in human history through low taxes, limited government, personal freedom and a belief in sound money. We need to return to these principles so our economy can thrive again. When enacted, my plan will provide both short-term stimulus and lay the groundwork for long-term prosperity.
Other candidates talk a lot about stimulus packages, but my record stands alone. I have fought for these measures for years as a member of Congress and will make them a top priority as president.
Ron Paul, a 10-term Republican congressman from Texas's 14th District, is currently the ranking member of the House Financial Services Committee's Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy, Trade, and Technology. He has been named "Taxpayers' Best Friend" for 10 consecutive years by the National Taxpayers' Union. Ron Paul is also the author of several books on monetary policy and economics.
The Four-Point Plan

Tax Reform (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/prosperity#Taxes): Reduce the tax burden and eliminate taxes that punish investment and savings, including job-killing corporate taxes.
Spending Reform (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/prosperity#Spending): Eliminate wasteful spending. Reduce overseas commitments. Freeze all non-defense, non-entitlement spending at current levels.
Monetary Policy Reform (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/prosperity#Monetary): Expand openness with the Federal Reserve and require the Fed to televise its meetings. Return value to our money.
Regulatory Reform (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/prosperity#Regulatory): Repeal Sarbanes/Oxley regulations that push companies to seek capital outside of US markets. Stop restricting community banks from fostering local economic growth.
1. Tax Reform[/URL]

Eliminate Taxes on Dividends and Savings. The basis of capitalism is savings, and Americans who do so should be rewarded.
Pass HJ Res. 23 to encourage savings over consumption.

Repeal the Death Tax. Attacking small businesses and breaking up family farms smothers growth and kills jobs.
Pass H.R. 2734 to make the Bush tax cuts permanent.

Cut Taxes for Working Seniors. Grandmothers and grandfathers working to make ends meet should keep all the fruits of their labor.
Pass H.R. 191 to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to repeal the inclusion in gross income of Social Security benefits.

Eliminate Taxes on Social Security Benefits. That money belongs to seniors, not the government. They paid into the system for a lifetime, and they should be free to spend every penny as they see fit.
Pass H.R. 192 to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to repeal the 1993 increase in taxes on Social Security benefits.

Accelerate Depreciation on Investment. We need to help companies grow and create jobs.
Pass H.R. 4995 and amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to reduce corporate marginal income tax rates.

Eliminate Taxes on Capital Gains. Investment should be embraced and rewarded.
Pass H.J. Res 23 (The “Liberty Amendment”), proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States relative to abolishing personal income, estate, and gift taxes and prohibiting the United States Government from engaging in business in competition with its citizens.

Eliminate Taxes on Tips.The single parents and working students who earn their income chiefly through tips deserve to keep all of their money. This tax on "estimated income" is unfair and should be ended.
Pass H.R. 3664 to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide that tips shall not be subject to income or employment taxes.

Support Mortgage Cancelation Relief Act. Working families who lost their homes should not be punished a second time with a big IRS bill.
Pass H.R. 1876 to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to exclude from gross income of individual taxpayers discharges of indebtedness attributable to certain forgiven residential mortgage obligations.

2. Spending Reform (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/)

Reduce Overseas Military Commitments.Our bases and troops should be on our soil, bolstering our economy.
It's time to stop subsidizing our business competitors in Europe, Japan and South Korea.

Freeze Non-Defense, Non-Entitlement Spending at Current Levels
I vote against all bloated, pork laden spending bills and will veto them as president.
3. Monetary Policy Reform

Televise Federal Open Market Committee Meetings. An institution as powerful as the Federal Reserve deserves full public scrutiny.
Expand Transparency and Accountability at the Federal Reserve
Pass H.R. 2754 to require the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System to continue to make available to the public on a weekly basis information on the measure of the M3 monetary aggregate and its components.

Return Value to Our Money. Legalize gold and silver as a competing currency.
Level the long-term boom and bust business cycle by passing H.R. 4683, which would repeal provisions of the federal criminal code relating to issuance coins of gold, silver, or other metal for use as current money and making or possessing likenesses of such coins.
4. Regulatory Reform[URL="http://www.orangemane.com/BB/"] (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/)

Repeal Sarbanes/Oxley. It has seriously wounded our capital markets and helped make the UK the financial center at our expense.
Ending these misguided regulations would bring jobs flooding back to the United States

Pass H.R. 1049 to reform Sarbanes-Oxley and reduce the burden it places on small businesses.

Repeal or Remove Costly and Unnecessary Federal Regulations. Neighbors know best how to help their neighbors.
We need to make it easier for community banks, credit unions, and other financial institutions to better serve their communities and to help people in these communities get access to credit and capital.
Pass H.R. 1869 to enhance the ability of community banks to foster economic growth and serve their communities, boost small businesses, increase individual savings, and for other purposes.

[baja]

Some nut job this Ron Paul guy!!! ;D

What say you Dave??

[loborugger]

Hey, TJ, a lot of this stuff sounds pretty good. A couple of comments.

1. I think to a limited extent, some US troops should remain in S Korea. I think that if we leave and N Korea smells weakness, they will come south and it will be harder to put them in than just leave them there. However, thats a minor point and ultimately, S Korea is responible for S Korea's defense.

2. Of a larger concern, I am not sure we would benefit from the return the gold and silver standards. I have little doubt, however, that it would be a painful transistion. On that point, a question... In the 19th Cent, the US was on the gold and silver standard as we were mining tons and tons of silver out of the western states (I think we were the largest silver producers at the time). However, we were the sole nation to use both standards and we left it. The justification I have always heard is that it caused problems for the dollar in the world market. Does Ron have a take on this? If the reason we did leave the silver standard is that we were unique and it was a problem, wont being the only nation on the gold standard be a problem in the 21st century?

[baja]

Paul is not planning on returning to the gold and silver standard. He is saying to legalize gold and silver as legal currency as an option or a competing currency. Big difference!

[TailgateNut]

Some nut job this Ron Paul guy!!! ;D

What say you Dave??


Yes Sir.

Lets cut taxes on corporations. (who benefits?) the rich
Let's cut taxes on Capital gains.(who benefits?) the rich

Cut taxes, cut taxes, cut taxes (you know if I say it often enough, I'll get the GOP vote too).:wiggle:

But tell me what replaces all that lost revenue??

Oh, that's right, we'll cut entitlements to those who do not benefit from the tax cuts above, but we will give them a little nugget by not taxing their tip income :spit: and not taxing their SS benefits (that should help those old people who can;t make ends meet).ROFL! How ****ing generous:spit:


Make the Bush tax cuts permanent! **** you and the horse you rode in on!


Hey one more good one. Bring all of the military home, and then we can cut the forces and send them into the unemployment lines!


What's his stance on Illegals. Should we offer them room and board?

[Taco John]

I am not sure we would benefit from the return the gold and silver standards.

Then it's simple. Don't use them. Ron Paul just wants to make them legal (per the constitution) to use them as tender.

I'll go ahead and let you use the paper, I'll be saving gold and silver! :rofl:

In the 19th Cent, the US was on the gold and silver standard as we were mining tons and tons of silver out of the western states (I think we were the largest silver producers at the time). However, we were the sole nation to use both standards and we left it. The justification I have always heard is that it caused problems for the dollar in the world market.

We left the gold standard because we drained our reserves with Korea and especially the Vietnam war. Inflation was going to slaughter the value of the dollar because the gold that was supposed to be backing it wasn't there, and so we abandoned it. It had nothing to do with causing problems in the world market. It had everything to do with getting involved in undeclared wars that we had no business being in.


If the reason we did leave the silver standard is that we were unique and it was a problem, wont being the only nation on the gold standard be a problem in the 21st century?

Hell no. The reason the rest of the world is on a fiat standard is because we abandoned the gold standard ourselves. The rest of the world took our ill-advised lead, and now they're in a situation where most of them are having to de-peg their currencies from the dollar because it's sinking in value so quickly and destroying their economies with it.

All this fear mongering about the gold standard amounts to nothing anyway. Ron Paul wants to make it available as a competing currency, not switch the US completely to the gold standard. Suckers will still use the paper, and more power to them. At least I'll be able to get my hands on real money.

[Taco John]

But tell me what replaces all that lost revenue??



Nothing. Absolutely nothing!

It beautiful. Americans keep the money they make and government is told to GET BENT! !Booya!

[Taco John]

Oh, that's right, we'll cut entitlements

By the way - this is absolutely false. Ron Paul has no intentions whatsoever to cut entitlements. His plan would fully fund medicare, medicaide, and social security. There's nothing in the plan to cut entitlements.

[TailgateNut]

Nothing. Absolutely nothing!

It beautiful. Americans keep the money they make and government is told to GET BENT! !Booya!


Great Idea.

Tell you what. The day he gets nominated I'll take the afternoon off to stock up on Guns and Ammo!

[TailgateNut]

By the way - this is absolutely false. Ron Paul has no intentions whatsoever to cut entitlements. His plan would fully fund medicare, medicaide, and social security. There's nothing in the plan to cut entitlements.

Is he planning to pull the funds out of his skinny ass?

[TailgateNut]

By the way - this is absolutely false. Ron Paul has no intentions whatsoever to cut entitlements. His plan would fully fund medicare, medicaide, and social security. There's nothing in the plan to cut entitlements.


Naw, he's like a lazy hunter/gatherer. He doesn't hunt nor gather but plans to serve a feast!

[Taco John]

Naw, he's like a lazy hunter/gatherer. He doesn't hunt nor gather but plans to serve a feast!

I don't know what this means.

You seem to not understand the plan. You just want to hate on Ron Paul. Even if it means saying stuff that isn't true.

[baja]

Is he planning to pull the funds out of his skinny ass?

no it means there will be no money to build bridges that go nowhere like in Alaska for example.

We will save 1,000,000,000 by not being the military for half the world.

BTW this one just might get Dr. Paul killed by the industrial military complex

[Hotrod]

Anyone else think that if Paul is president nothing will change. How the hell is this nut going to get all these changes done while getting the support of neither side of the aisle???

I highly doubt the great Dr. Paul is going to force the government to "get bent"

[baja]

Nut if all these measures help big business why are they shutting him out in the media.

[baja]

Well Hotrod we will never know as long as voters are as pessimistic as you are.

[Taco John]

Anyone else think that if Paul is president nothing will change. How the hell is this nut going to get all these changes done while getting the support of neither side of the aisle???

I highly doubt the great Dr. Paul is going to force the government to "get bent"


If Republicans didn't support this plan, they have no business calling themselves Republicans. Also, if Paul were president, he'd have the support of the people to get him there. The Republicans would know which way the sentiment of the public was going, and shift their attitudes accordingly in order to preserve their jobs.

Bottom line, a Republican who doesn't support this plan needs to ask himself why he's not a democrat.

[TailgateNut]

Nut if all these measures help big bossiness why are they shutting him out in the media.

The guy is certifiable! WTF is he smoking?

The reason they are shutting him out is because he's a ****ing NUT!

His PLANS, as Taco so eloquently names them, cannot be implemented, and if they were cannot sustain a working economy.

You cannot impose more tax cuts without cutting programs and entitlements.
Nor can you expect to pay off our nations debt by cutting incoming funds.

As I asked earlier. Is he planning to pull funds out of his ass!

[alkemical]

Anyone else think that if Paul is president nothing will change. How the hell is this nut going to get all these changes done while getting the support of neither side of the aisle???

I highly doubt the great Dr. Paul is going to force the government to "get bent"

No but the voters can.... ;)

[Taco John]

The guy is certifiable! WTF is he smoking?

The reason they are shutting him out is because he's a ****ing NUT!

His PLANS, as Taco so eloquently names them, cannot be implemented, and if they were cannot sustain a working economy.

You cannot impose more tax cuts without cutting programs and entitlements.
Nor can you expect to pay off our nations debt by cutting incoming funds.

As I asked earlier. Is he planning to pull funds out of his ass!



This post is evidence that you don't understand the plan, and don't really know what you are talking about. Ron Paul's plan focuses on cutting spending overseas (saving at least a trillion a year), freezing domestic spending levels, and then leaving more money in the hands of consumers and savers. He's not "pulling funds out of his ass." He's leaving them in the hands of the people who earned them in the first place.

The first thing that you should do is read the plan before knocking it. This way, you at least halfway there to knowing what it is that you're talking about.

[baja]

The guy is certifiable! WTF is he smoking?

The reason they are shutting him out is because he's a ****ing NUT!

His PLANS, as Taco so eloquently names them, cannot be implemented, and if they were cannot sustain a working economy.

You cannot impose more tax cuts without cutting programs and entitlements.
Nor can you expect to pay off our nations debt by cutting incoming funds.

As I asked earlier. Is he planning to pull funds out of his ass!

see post #24.

[Hotrod]

This post is evidence that you don't understand the plan, and don't really know what you are talking about. Ron Paul's plan focuses on cutting spending overseas (saving at least a trillion a year), freezing domestic spending levels, and then leaving more money in the hands of consumers and savers. He's not "pulling funds out of his ass." He's leaving them in the hands of the people who earned them in the first place.

The first thing that you should do is read the plan before knocking it. This way, you at least halfway there to knowing what it is that you're talking about.

So hes going to bring all troops home and stop giving out aid to every tom dick & harry???

Im not so sure that isolationism is a good "plan"

[alkemical]

So hes going to bring all troops home and stop giving out aid to every tom dick & harry???

Im not so sure that isolationism is a good "plan"

It's not really isolationism from my understanding. It's not using the military as...repo men so to speak.

[baja]

That is not isolationism it's about not being the military of those countries.

[TailgateNut]

This post is evidence that you don't understand the plan, and don't really know what you are talking about. Ron Paul's plan focuses on cutting spending overseas (saving at least a trillion a year), freezing domestic spending levels, and then leaving more money in the hands of consumers and savers. He's not "pulling funds out of his ass." He's leaving them in the hands of the people who earned them in the first place.

The first thing that you should do is read the plan before knocking it. This way, you at least halfway there to knowing what it is that you're talking about.


Your are so right. Who am I to question the DOCTOR's PLAN.

And you wonder why the rest of the public thinks Ron Paul supporters are ****ing nuts!


Cut taxes on Savings
Cut taxes on dividents
Cut taxes on corporations.
Cut taxes on Capital gains.
Cut taxes on tips.
Cut taxes on SS income.
Make Bushs' tax cuts permanent.

and then a little cookie for the other half; He wont cut entitlements!


Show me the numbers!!!

But he'll get the republican vote because all you need to scream is:"Tax cuts" and the base comes running!


Re; Baja's post # 24: statement #3 is almost guaranteed. Just a matter of time! They will erase him!

[baja]

Your are so right. Who am I to question the DOCTOR's PLAN.

And you wonder why the rest of the public thinks Ron Paul supporters are ****ing nuts!


Cut taxes on Savings
Cut taxes on dividents
Cut taxes on corporations.
Cut taxes on Capital gains.
Cut taxes on tips.
Cut taxes on SS income.
Make Bushs' tax cuts permanent.

and then a little cookie for the other half; He wont cut entitlements!


<b>Show me the numbers!!!</b>

But he'll get the republican vote because all you need to scream is:"Tax cuts" and the base comes running!


Re; Baja's post # 24: statement #3 is almost guaranteed. Just a matter of time! They will erase him!

That is a very reasonable request! I believe that will be his next step. This is such a big change he has to unveil it is steps.

[Spider]

We all know what I think of Ron Paul , this economy plan of his is bull**** , he is just saying what people want to hear so he can get into the White House and push is White Supremacy plan

[TailgateNut]

One more quick question from the "dumb one" (Thanks Taco).


How does he plan to pay off our debt?

Does he plan to close the borders and flip everyone off?

[baja]

We all know what I think of Ron Paul , this economy plan of his is bull**** , he is just saying what people want to hear so he can get into the White House and push is White Supremacy plan

What saddens me is guys like you Nut and Hotrod are missing what he is proposing and if you three smart guys don't seeit it that tells me more than half of the voters will miss it too.

[24champ]

So hes going to bring all troops home and stop giving out aid to every tom dick & harry???

Im not so sure that isolationism is a good "plan"

Ding Ding Ding! We have a Winner!

[TailgateNut]

That is a very reasonable request! I believe that will be his next step. This is such a big change he has to unveil it is steps.


LOL

You know, when I manage multimillion dollar projects, I usually have the complete plan worked out prior to starting. This includes funding for each and every item.(Mtls, Labor, Ins., Bonding, Permits, O.H and profit, etc) I don't pull **** out of my ass as I go along! I'd be bankrupt!

He wants to manage the country "one BIG step at a time", while pulling **** out of his ass!ROFL!

[TailgateNut]

What saddens me is guys like you Nut and Hotrod are missing what he is proposing and if you three smart guys don't seeit it that tells me more than half of the voters will miss it too.

Don't even try to rub my ass! Taco has made it clear that I'm basically a DumbAssMF!

I got to where I am in life by sheer luck!

[baja]

LOL

You know, when I manage multimillion dollar projects, I usually have the complete plan worked out prior to starting. This includes funding for each and every item.(Mtls, Labor, Ins., Bonding, Permits, O.H and profit, etc) I don't pull **** out of my ass as I go along! I'd be bankrupt!

He wants to manage the country "one BIG step at a time", while pulling **** out of his ass!ROFL!

This is about a politician running for office he has to keep his message to simple sound bites at first. Remember few are as savvy as you

[Florida_Bronco]

The part I like best about this is getting rid of so many wasteful government programs like FEMA. That money can be put to much better use.

[TailgateNut]

This is about a politician running for office he has to keep his message to simple sound bites at first. Remember few are as savvy as you



"keep his message to simple sound bites" = I have no ****ing idea, so I'll just pull **** out of my ass
"Remember few are as savvy as you"= don't stroke me, I don't swing in that direction!

[TheDave]

Goddamit TJ... The way this post is formatted, it is impossible to respond to it point by point.

I'll keep trying...arrrrrgghhh.

[TailgateNut]

Goddamit TJ... The way this post is formatted, it is impossible to respond to it point by point.

I'll keep trying...arrrrrgghhh.

Don't worry, it'll be reformatted when the Doctor figures out how to implement his PLAN.
...and then it will be reformatted when he figures out no one will support his plan.

[TailgateNut]

Taco,


what are we going to do with all those soldiers? Early outs'?Build fences?magically create jobs for them while cutting PORK? Maybe they can pick tomatoes?

[TailgateNut]

Come on Taco and Baja. Howz it gonna work. Show me the numbers! You keep saying he's such a financial guru.

How are we budgeting to pay off the debt with all those tax cuts???

You keep praising this radical candidate. Make me believe he's not ****ing CRAZY!

[baja]

"keep his message to simple sound bites" = I have no ****ing idea, so I'll just pull **** out of my ass
"Remember few are as savvy as you"= don't stroke me, I don't swing in that direction!

Actually I meant that as a compliment, I don't get your anger. At any rate I have said all i can about this all I can do is hope that you (and others) over time will come to see the value of this platform.

[baja]

Don't even try to rub my ass! Taco has made it clear that I'm basically a DumbAssMF!

I got to where I am in life by sheer luck!

I never even implied that and you know it.

[TailgateNut]

Actually I meant that as a compliment, I don't get your anger. At any rate I have said all i can about this all I can do is hope that you (and others) over time will come to see the value of this platform.

What ****ing platform?

How does he intend to fund anything?

He's telling all of those who are tired of the current direction that he has the answer without giving a complete plan!

I bet I could build and sell an upside down doghouse to most of his cheerleaders!

[TailgateNut]

I don't need, nor do I ask for compliments. I want answers!

[baja]

What ****ing platform?

How does he intend to fund anything?

He's telling all of those who are tired of the current direction that he has the answer without giving a complete plan!

I bet I could build and sell an upside down doghouse to most of his cheerleaders!

Small government = small spending and small revenues. Maybe the simplicity of all this is what you are missing.

[24champ]

Hey Nut,

I'm sticking a Ron Paul sticker on your ride at next years Tailgates for ****s and giggles. :giggle:

[baja]

I don't need, nor do I ask for compliments. I want answers!

OK Nut I guess we are done here.

[TailgateNut]

Hey Nut,

I'm sticking a Ron Paul sticker on your ride at next years Tailgates for ****s and giggles. :giggle:



By the time the tailgates start this season the "fun and games" will be over.

The political hatchets will not be burried for this one! To much riding on this election!

In addition, IMO, Ron Paul will be "elliminated" long before football season begins!

[TailgateNut]

Small government = small spending and small revenues. Maybe the simplicity of all this is what you are missing.

How do you pay down the debt with "small revenues".

I usually need funds in my checking account to pay off my bills1

How does he intend to conjure up the funding required to get us out of the current debt???
I know! He's going to have all those extra soldiers dig for GOLD!

[baja]

by running in the black just like every one else.

[TheDave]

1. Tax Reform <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Eliminate Taxes on Dividends and Savings. The basis of capitalism is savings, and Americans who do so should be rewarded. <o:p></o:p>
Pass HJ Res. 23 to encourage savings over consumption. <o:p></o:p>Fine by me…<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Repeal the Death Tax. Attacking small businesses and breaking up family farms smothers growth and kills jobs. <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 2734 to make the Bush tax cuts permanent. <o:p></o:p>Rich getting richer… IMO that is what you will continue to see by doing this.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Cut Taxes for Working Seniors. Grandmothers and grandfathers working to make ends meet should keep all the fruits of their labor. <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 191 to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to repeal the inclusion in gross income of Social Security benefits. <o:p></o:p>Very good idea….<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Eliminate Taxes on Social Security Benefits. That money belongs to seniors, not the government. They paid into the system for a lifetime, and they should be free to spend every penny as they see fit. <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 192 to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to repeal the 1993 increase in taxes on Social Security benefits. <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>
Another very good idea…<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Accelerate Depreciation on Investment. We need to help companies grow and create jobs. <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 4995 and amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to reduce corporate marginal income tax rates. <o:p></o:p>And Another… Should help significantly spur business<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Eliminate Taxes on Capital Gains. Investment should be embraced and rewarded. <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.J. Res 23 (The “Liberty Amendment”), proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States relative to abolishing personal income, estate, and gift taxes and prohibiting the United States Government from engaging in business in competition with its citizens. <o:p></o:p>Another rich getting richer issue… these type of “changes” will turn millionaires into billionaires, while doing almost nothing for the middle class. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Eliminate Taxes on Tips.The single parents and working students who earn their income chiefly through tips deserve to keep all of their money. This tax on "estimated income" is unfair and should be ended. <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 3664 to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide that tips shall not be subject to income or employment taxes. <o:p></o:p>Now that we have made the millionaires richer we will throw a couple of pennies back to the poor… <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Support Mortgage Cancelation Relief Act. Working families who lost their homes should not be punished a second time with a big IRS bill. <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 1876 to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to exclude from gross income of individual taxpayers discharges of indebtedness attributable to certain forgiven residential mortgage obligations. <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>
100% agree with this…<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
2. Spending Reform <o:p></o:p>

Reduce Overseas Military Commitments.Our bases and troops should be on our soil, bolstering our economy. <o:p></o:p>
It's time to stop subsidizing our business competitors in Europe, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region> and <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">South Korea</st1:country-region></st1:place>. <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>
I agree with this to a point, but what he is calling for is pure isolationism. A good idea in moderation…<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Freeze Non-Defense, Non-Entitlement Spending at Current Levels <o:p></o:p>
I vote against all bloated, pork laden spending bills and will veto them as president.<o:p></o:p>Excellent…<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
3. Monetary Policy Reform <o:p></o:p>

Televise Federal Open Market Committee Meetings. An institution as powerful as the Federal Reserve deserves full public scrutiny. <o:p></o:p>Worthless idea, but if it makes him happy…<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Expand Transparency and Accountability at the Federal Reserve <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 2754 to require the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System to continue to make available to the public on a weekly basis information on the measure of the M3 monetary aggregate and its components. <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>
Same as above…<o:p></o:p>

Return Value to Our Money. Legalize gold and silver as a competing currency. <o:p></o:p>
Level the long-term boom and bust business cycle by passing H.R. 4683, which would repeal provisions of the federal criminal code relating to issuance coins of gold, silver, or other metal for use as current money and making or possessing likenesses of such coins. <o:p></o:p>Damn it, Damn it, Damn it… Why can’t this kook let go of such a stupid ****ing idea. This is a catastrophic idea that could paralyze parts of the economy. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
4. Regulatory Reform <o:p></o:p>

Repeal Sarbanes/Oxley. It has seriously wounded our capital markets and helped make the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region> the financial center at our expense. <o:p></o:p>
Ending these misguided regulations would bring jobs flooding back to the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 1049 to reform Sarbanes-Oxley and reduce the burden it places on small businesses. <o:p></o:p>I do not know enough about this… It sounds good but I would have to read up on it to have an informed opinion.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

Repeal or Remove Costly and Unnecessary Federal Regulations. Neighbors know best how to help their neighbors. <o:p></o:p>
We need to make it easier for community banks, credit unions, and other financial institutions to better serve their communities and to help people in these communities get access to credit and capital. <o:p></o:p>
Pass H.R. 1869 to enhance the ability of community banks to foster economic growth and serve their communities, boost small businesses, increase individual savings, and for other purposes.<o:p></o:p>I’m good with that…<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Some very good ideas here along with a couple of head scratchers’. I need to see the fine print to see if the numbers work out. He has cut billions in taxes (mostly for the wealthy I might add), but has he also cut billions in spending?<o:p></o:p>
I like the idea of cutting our military footprint world wide. But I feel it is a form of isolationism to withdraw all troops everywhere. In addition, how does he plan on accomplishing this? Do we have agreements with some of these countries to protect them? Should we just ignore these agreements? How do we deal with the chaos and loss of life that ensues ones we leave some places? These are very real questions that need to be addressed before we can support such a drastic plan.<o:p></o:p>
As for his harebrained idea to start minting gold and Silver… Why can’t he simply let this idea die? It is dumb, unnecessary and has far more downside than benefits. <o:p></o:p>
But… Overall I like the plan. If he could spell out his “military withdrawal strategy”, show how the numbers would even out, get rid of the gold and silver fairytale, and place a little more emphasis on paying down the national debt… I would back it completely.<o:p></o:p>

[El Minion]

Repeal the Death Tax. Attacking small businesses and breaking up family farms smothers growth and kills jobs.


A mixed bag for me, but this one hear is simply for the super rich. How many americans, percentage-wise, are affected by this tax after applying the 2 million (or so) exemption? How many americans have a net worth of over 2 million? If the estate tax is eliminated then how soon will America have a permanent aristocratic class of the wealthy who will control large portions of America's wealth through generations and intermarriage.

Oh to be the child of Gates or Buffet if this is ever abolished.

[TailgateNut]

by running in the black just like every one else.



LOL

There better be a LOT OF BLACK, just to keep up with the interest.

Oh, and how does he plan on funding the skyrocketing unemployment claims from all the lay-offs causes by his cuts?

Just another minor detail!

I have many, when looking at his "PLAN"!

[Hotrod]

How do you pay down the debt with "small revenues".

I usually need funds in my checking account to pay off my bills1

How does he intend to conjure up the funding required to get us out of the current debt???
I know! He's going to have all those extra soldiers dig for GOLD!

LOL

Ok on a serious note what the hell is he going to do with all the soliders? Put them on the border? cut the military? pick up trash on the side of the highway?

Also nobody touched his "plan" for foreign aid packages. Is he cutting off funding to our allies? the M.E.? Africa?

Whats his plan for S Korea and Taiwan once we have no presence in the area. You realize taking all our troops home = ****ting on our allies!

[baja]

may be continuing to bleed red is the answer than...

[TailgateNut]

Not that we have any great choices for president, but this guy reminds me of some of my contractors and subcontractors. They also plan ahead, one day at a time!

[baja]

Dave, you do know that Ron Paul has no intention of going back to the gold standard, he want's to allow gold and silver to be a currency option along with the dollar. Big difference!

[Hotrod]

Dave, you do know that Ron Paul has no intention of going back to the gold standard, he want's to allow gold and silver to be a currency option along with the dollar. Big difference!

How many gold pieces does a #2 at McDonalds go for these days???


:)

[Spider]

What saddens me is guys like you Nut and Hotrod are missing what he is proposing and if you three smart guys don't seeit it that tells me more than half of the voters will miss it too.

I see it crystal clear , but I cant get past the Ron Paul news letters , just Like Obama and his coke use ...... Neither one of these men have done anything to warrent my vote .....
I would rather have fred Thompson in office and hope he naps most of the time , then take a chance on RP or Obama

[baja]

How many gold pieces does a #2 at McDonalds go for these days???


:)

I have no idea but i do know gold will always have value. How much are the dollars you earned in 1970 worth today?

[Beantown Bronco]

One more quick question from the "dumb one" (Thanks Taco).


How does he plan to pay off our debt?

Does he plan to close the borders and flip everyone off?

Sad part is, that's what most other countries seem to do to us when they owe us.....and we let them.

[TheDave]

Dave, you do know that Ron Paul has no intention of going back to the gold standard, he want's to allow gold and silver to be a currency option along with the dollar. Big difference!

I realize that, and what he wants is STUPID!!!!!!!!!

It will create 10X's the problems it solves.

[Rohirrim]

#2 itself is worth a trillion dollars, folks.

I totally disagree with the idea of cementing in Bush's tax cuts, especially the so-called "Death" tax. I agree with Thomas Jefferson on this one.

[Rohirrim]

LOL

Ok on a serious note what the hell is he going to do with all the soliders? Put them on the border? cut the military? pick up trash on the side of the highway?

Also nobody touched his "plan" for foreign aid packages. Is he cutting off funding to our allies? the M.E.? Africa?

Whats his plan for S Korea and Taiwan once we have no presence in the area. You realize taking all our troops home = ****ting on our allies!

Shouldn't we fund our own people first? Where should the billions go, to funding our allies or rebuilding our own infrastructure, like that bridge in Minnesota? S. Korea and Taiwan have huge military forces. Why should we spend billions to defend them? Let them defend themselves. Why do we spend billions of our money to protect Japan? They have the capacity to do it themselves. Why do we spend billions upon billions to defend Saudi Arabia? They certainly have the money to buy whatever military they require. We get less than 13% of our oil from the Gulf. Why are we the #1 protector of the region, to the tune of hundreds of billions?

Imagine if we pared all that back and started investing in America's infrastructure? In OUR schools? In OUR highways? In OUR transportation? etc.

[TheDave]

#2 itself is worth a trillion dollars, folks.

I totally disagree with the idea of cementing in Bush's tax cuts, especially the so-called "Death" tax. I agree with Thomas Jefferson on this one.

and I'm all for it... But how do you do it?

Do we have agreements with these countries?

What's involved in breaking these agreements? (if they do exist)

Seriously i'm not against this... I just want some type of idea how it works.

[baja]

and our debt.

[Rohirrim]

and I'm all for it... But how do you do it?

Do we have agreements with these countries?

What's involved in breaking these agreements? (if they do exist)

Seriously i'm not against this... I just want some type of idea how it works.

We say, "We're pulling out. How much time do you need to put together your own defense force? We'll help you. We'll sell you the equipment you need. If we see you moving deliberately to provide your country with a defense force, we'll stay and help you through the transition and gradually reduce our forces over time. If we see no progress, we're out of here. The days of the free lunch are over."

There's an old saying: If you are trying to rescue a drowning man and he starts to pull you under, get away and leave him to his fate. The United States is being pulled down by all these commitments. We have to start investing in our own people.

[baja]

I realize that, and what he wants is STUPID!!!!!!!!!

It will create 10X's the problems it solves.

Why? The only entities using gold as currency would be those that wanted to and the recipients could exchange the gold coins for dollars or any other recognized currency electronically.

All we are saying here is we as a nation believe in our dollar and have no fear stacking it against gold.

[TailgateNut]

Roh for president!;)

[Beantown Bronco]

Beantown Bronco has changed his vote to Rohirrim for President.

[TailgateNut]

Heck, if they pump all of the savings into infrastructure, I'll be swimming in contracts. Then I'll have to start voting republican to protect my ASSets!

[baja]

Isn't what Ro is saying blatantly obvious to you guys in the first place. Did you actually think the US would just cut and run without some sort of transition plan.

[Rohirrim]

As Eisenhower proved, investments in infrastructure create economic booms.

[Taco John]

Don't even try to rub my ass! Taco has made it clear that I'm basically a DumbAssMF!

I got to where I am in life by sheer luck!


I didn't say that. I said you should actually read the plan. I'd love to have an actualy discussion about this, rather than you just yelling breathlessly about stuff that doesn't actually apply.

[Taco John]

Make me believe he's not ****ing CRAZY!

I don't think that's possible. I think you've made up your mind and don't wish to actually examine his positions. You just want to swear and call names.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

As Eisenhower proved, investments in infrastructure create economic booms.

Then China owes Bush a big "thank you." ;)

[Taco John]

I realize that, and what he wants is STUPID!!!!!!!!!

It will create 10X's the problems it solves.



Prove it.

[Taco John]

and I'm all for it... But how do you do it?

Do we have agreements with these countries?

What's involved in breaking these agreements? (if they do exist)

Seriously i'm not against this... I just want some type of idea how it works.



It's simple: we simply stop cutting checks. We stop sending free money that we have to borrow from China, and we give our allies the hotline number to China so that they can borrow it themselves.

[Taco John]

Heck, if they pump all of the savings into infrastructure, I'll be swimming in contracts. Then I'll have to start voting republican to protect my ASSets!

This is EXACTLY Ron Paul's plan. He wants that money going to our own local infrastructure, knowing that it would revitalize our own economy.

[Rohirrim]

After all, the majority of our overseas bases were built to contain the Soviet Union. Headline! The Soviet Union has been out of business for almost twenty ****ing years!

[TheDave]

Why? The only entities using gold as currency would be those that wanted to and the recipients could exchange the gold coins for dollars or any other recognized currency electronically.

All we are saying here is we as a nation believe in our dollar and have no fear stacking it against gold.

because as I've said before it is 10X more complex than that... how do city's and counties deal with the forced deflationary pressures that this creates?

Again back to the couple trying to sell their home... assume that their bank will only accept U.S. notes. That automatically gets rid of people who buy and sell in gold. Following a simple supply and demand curve that creates less buyers and forces prices downward.

Say these buyers are willing to convert their gold to US Notes... What is the cost of that... say 1%?

Because, no one is going to do it for free... Well you just effectively raised the price of said home 1%

On top of that there is the real cost of mining, transporting, minting, and final delivery to the end customer... Who pays for that? How does that effect the price of your oney?

This is an infinitely complex idea that is 100% unnecessary...

[baja]

and guess who is following in the USSR's foot steps to oblivion.

[baja]

because as I've said before it is 10X more complex than that... how do city's and counties deal with the forced deflationary pressures that this creates?

Again back to the couple trying to sell their home... assume that their bank will only accept U.S. notes. That automatically gets rid of people who buy and sell in gold. Following a simple supply and demand curve that creates less buyers and forces prices downward.

Say these buyers are willing to convert their gold to US Notes... What is the cost of that... 1%? Because, no one is going to do it for free... Well you just effectively raised the price of said home 1%

This is an infinitely complex idea that is 100% unnecessary...

How to canadans buy merchandise in the USA? How does a German farmer buy a tractor from Brazil?

EXCHANGE RATES

[Rohirrim]

This really came home to me when the Turks didn't want us to use our bases there to invade Iraq. Here, for all these decades, we've been giving them billions to give us a base as a hedge to the Soviets. Then, when we need it, they say we can't use it? WTF??? Then, I sat and watched as all our jets took off from Missouri, bombed Iraq, and flew home. So why do we need that base?

[TheDave]

It's simple: we simply stop cutting checks. We stop sending free money that we have to borrow from China, and we give our allies the hotline number to China so that they can borrow it themselves.

And there is the problem with some RP supporters... Everything is simple. Hell Dr. Paul can unwind 100 years of military commitments and interventions with the snap of his fingers. Nevermind the 1,000's of trade, currency, and economic deals that are based on us keeping our troops in various places. None of that matters... We simply stop cutting checks

I wish the world was as easy as you guys think it is...

[Rohirrim]

And there is the problem with some RP supporters... Everything is simple. Hell Dr. Paul can unwind 100 years of military commitments and interventions with the snap of his fingers. Nevermind the 1,000's of trade, currency, and economic deals that are based on us keeping our troops in various places. None of that matters... We simply stop cutting checks

I wish the world was as easy as you guys think it is...

Ever ask yourself why it's only the U.S. that maintains all these foreign bases? The great European imperialists, France, England and Spain have closed all of theirs. The Soviets no longer exist, but the Russians maintain none. China has none. So why us?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

After all, the majority of our overseas bases were built to contain the Soviet Union. Headline! The Soviet Union has been out of business for almost twenty ****ing years!

Yep.

The old USSR was already collapsing from within WAY before Red Ink Ron took credit for bringing it down.

After the cold war ended, the military industrial complex needed a way to keep the money machine rolling. Enter the "GWOT."

[TheDave]

How to canadans buy merchandise in the USA? How does a German farmer buy a tractor from Brazil?

EXCHANGE RATES

wow... pure genius.

thats fiat money to fiat money... you nut.

you want places to accept pure gold coin. So who accepts the cost of storing, maintain, securing, etc. or do you suppose that is free?

Because if it is not... thats an automatic devaluation of your money.

wat about the cost of minting said money? who accepts that?

Again, a completely unnecessary problem... drop it and RP might get some supporters that don't believe the moon walk was a hoax

[baja]

Ever ask yourself why it's only the U.S. that maintains all these foreign bases? The great European imperialists, France, England and Spain have closed all of theirs. The Soviets no longer exist, but the Russians maintain none. China has none. So why us?

stop asking those great questions you're making people squirm.

[baja]

wow... pure genius.

thats fiat money to fiat money... you nut.

you want places to accept pure gold coin. So who accepts the cost of storing, maintain, securing, etc. or do you suppose that is free?

Because if it is not... thats an automatic devaluation of your money.

wat about the cost of minting said money? who accepts that?

Again, a completely unnecessary problem... drop it and RP might get some supporters that don't believe the moon walk was a hoax

Most money is exchanged electronically we are not talking about wheelbarrows of gold coins here. It's a gold backed currency

and quit calling me stupid.

[TheDave]

Ever ask yourself why it's only the U.S. that maintains all these foreign bases? The great European imperialists, France, England and Spain have closed all of theirs. The Soviets no longer exist, but the Russians maintain none. China has none. So why us?

I don't know, but as i've said, if this is as simple as you and others say it is... then do it.

My concern is that there is more to this than some of you think.

I've worked in Banking long enough to have friends that i can talk to about RP's gold currencey ideas. We practically wet our pants laughing at all the problems it would cause. I can't help but think that there is more to this than "Simply stop writing the checks"

[baja]

You remember Dave the dollar used to have printed right on it "redeemable in gold or silver.

[Bronco Bob]

Anyone else think that if Paul is president nothing will change. How the hell is this nut going to get all these changes done while getting the support of neither side of the aisle???

I highly doubt the great Dr. Paul is going to force the government to "get bent"

By the shear force of his personality alone. You know, the personality
you saw in the debates. The one where Giuliani and McCain and Huckabee
and Romney and the moderators were laughing at him.

[TheDave]

Most money is exchanged electronically we are not talking about wheelbarrows of gold coins here. It's a gold backed currency

and quit calling me stupid.

technically i called you a nut...

[Taco John]

And there is the problem with some RP supporters... Everything is simple. Hell Dr. Paul can unwind 100 years of military commitments and interventions with the snap of his fingers. Nevermind the 1,000's of trade, currency, and economic deals that are based on us keeping our troops in various places. None of that matters... We simply stop cutting checks

I wish the world was as easy as you guys think it is...



I'll tell you what - I haven't heard a good argument for why it makes sense to continue to borrow from China while giving free money to "allies" when they could borrow the money themselves. No one is actually willing to have this discussion and defend that. Instead, they call us crazy, naive, and fools. It's not much of an argument if you ask me.

Why don't you tell me why it's not so simple as just stopping the give away policy of free money? That would be a good place to start. How about actually coming up with a case against it?

[baja]

Ron paul likely will fade but some day his ideas will be implemented, after the catastrophic crash most likely.

[Hotrod]

By the shear force of his personality alone. You know, the personality
you saw in the debates. The one where Giuliani and McCain and Huckabee
and Romney and the moderators were laughing at him.

That is indeed a huge hang up for me. I do seem to agree with him on a great many issues but I question his ability to get anything done. He comes across......lets just say badly.

[Taco John]

By the shear force of his personality alone. You know, the personality
you saw in the debates. The one where Giuliani and McCain and Huckabee
and Romney and the moderators were laughing at him.


I say let them fools laugh!

[Taco John]

I've worked in Banking long enough to have friends that i can talk to about RP's gold currencey ideas. We practically wet our pants laughing at all the problems it would cause.




That's interesting, because I've never seen you so much as present an argument on the matter that doesn't amount to "just because, that's why."

[baja]

That is indeed a huge hang up for me. I do seem to agree with him on a great many issues but I question his ability to get anything done. He comes across......lets just say badly.

I can't argue that.

It's his ideas that matter but that will not be enough i fear.

[Taco John]

That is indeed a huge hang up for me. I do seem to agree with him on a great many issues but I question his ability to get anything done. He comes across......lets just say badly.



You guys are hung up on the pageant aspect of the presidential race.

[Bronco Bob]

The part I like best about this is getting rid of so many wasteful government programs like FEMA. That money can be put to much better use.

FEMA wasn't wasteful, it was a every efficiently run organization until
Vacation Boy decided to put his buddy the Horse Lawyer in charge of it.

[24champ]

That is indeed a huge hang up for me. I do seem to agree with him on a great many issues but I question his ability to get anything done. He comes across......lets just say badly.

Paul makes W look like a great orator.

[Hotrod]

You guys are hung up on the pageant aspect of the presidential race.

Its not that simple. It translates into getting things done once in office. Hes seems flusterd at times and I question his ability to lead both in the W.H. and in foreign meetings.

[Taco John]

Paul makes W look like a great orator.


Good grief...

[Taco John]

Its not that simple. It translates into getting things done once in office. Hes seems flusterd at times and I question his ability to lead both in the W.H. and in foreign meetings.



You voted for Bush. Twice. When did this become a concern to you?

[baja]

You guys are hung up on the pageant aspect of the presidential race.

Not me I'm just being realistic IMO. I do pray every night I'm wrong though and Ron Paul becomes the next president of the USA.

I have contributed to his campaign none the less.

[Bronco Bob]

Small government = small spending and small revenues. Maybe the simplicity of all this is what you are missing.

Good grief Baja, the United States is a country of 300 million people.
The third highest population of any country in the world.
You can't run the United States like you do Luxembourg or Estonia.
The US government is big because the United States of America is big.

[baja]

Good grief...

Ban him!

[baja]

Good grief Baja, the United States is a country of 300 million people.
The third highest population of any country in the world.
You can't run the United States like you do Luxembourg or Estonia.
The US government is big because the United States of America is big.

Cut the waste and the bloat that's all I'm saying.

[Hotrod]

You voted for Bush. Twice. When did this become a concern to you?

What can I say here except..........good point

[Taco John]

Good grief Baja, the United States is a country of 300 million people.
The third highest population of any country in the world.
You can't run the United States like you do Luxembourg or Estonia.
The US government is big because the United States of America is big.


The federal government doesn't have to be as big as it is. This nation would run a lot more efficiently if all of that government was turned over as much as possible to local controls...

Subsidiarity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity) - a catholic social principle which states that matters ought to be handled by the smallest (or, the lowest) competent authority.

The constitution was written with this principle in mind.

[baja]

You voted for Bush. Twice. When did this become a concern to you?

KA-BOOM!

[Hotrod]

KA-BOOM!

Hey who asked you Nut :)

[Taco John]

I can't believe that anyone can watch Ron Paul in these debates and come home with the idea that Ron Paul is some sort of pushover. It just shows me how shallow people have become.

I sit here watching these debates and I see the most corageous man in politics that I've ever seen in my life, as he goes against popularly held misconceptions and fearlessly tells the truth. And when his detractors laugh at him, he holds his head high and doesn't change his position because he'd rather be right than be president.

[baja]

Hey who asked you Nut :)

Well ya gotta admit it was a good one. ;D

[Bronco Bob]

I have no idea but i do know gold will always have value. How much are the dollars you earned in 1970 worth today?

I have long since spent the dollars I earned in the 70's, 80's, and
most of the 90's. But that's the nice thing about having a job.
I get new dollars, and with the raises I get, I get even more
new dollars than I was getting before. I get a lot more dollars
now than what I was getting in the 70's.

[24champ]

Ban him!

Yeah I need a paid vacation from this place.;D

[Taco John]

I'd never ban someone for a poltical take... I have banned someone for calling me a racist simply because they disagreed with me on one of mine. I'm a lot of things, but a racist I absolutely am not. My teeth grit just thinking about that incident.

[baja]

I have long since spent the dollars I earned in the 70's, 80's, and
most of the 90's. But that's the nice thing about having a job.
I get new dollars, and with the raises I get, I get even more
new dollars than I was getting before. I get a lot more dollars
now than what I was getting in the 70's.

so you don't save...

[Spider]

I'd never ban someone for a poltical take... I have banned someone for calling me a racist simply because they disagreed with me on one of mine. I'm a lot of things, but a racist I absolutely am not. My teeth grit just thinking about that incident.

Ya flippin racist ............

[baja]

I'd never ban someone for a poltical take... I have banned someone for calling me a racist simply because they disagreed with me on one of mine. I'm a lot of things, but a racist I absolutely am not. My teeth grit just thinking about that incident.

You do know I was kidding, right?

[baja]

Hey who asked you Nut :)

hey that's mister Stupid to you. ;D

[Hotrod]

Taco,

Do you actually belive that RP can win the WH or are you in the camp of just make some progress for the future?

[Hotrod]

hey that's mister Stupid to you. ;D

my bad :)

[Taco John]

Taco,

Do you actually belive that RP can win the WH or are you in the camp of just make some progress for the future?


Yes. I have faith.

[TheDave]

That's interesting, because I've never seen you so much as present an argument on the matter that doesn't amount to "just because, that's why."

Really that must be why when i ask for specifics on his plans I'm given the poetic "I have seen the intricate tapestry that is Dr. Paul's plan" speech.

It's your candidate, who's water you carry, that has very few specifics as to how his revolutionary change's will be implemented.

No one else is calling for ALL of our troops to be brought home:
No one else is calling for the implemntation of competing gold and silver currencies:
No one else is calling for the dissolution of the IRS, FEMA, and the board of eductaion:

All i am asking for is an explanion that has more thought behind it than "Just stop writing checks"

[Bronco Bob]

so you don't save...

Never said that. But I do buy things like clothes and food and a house
and a pick-up and gas to fill it's tank. And the 70's money went
to buy a pick-up and gas to fill it, and food to fill my belly.

[24champ]

I can't believe that anyone can watch Ron Paul in these debates and come home with the idea that Ron Paul is some sort of pushover. It just shows me how shallow people have become.


Sorry but it's a fact. You look at the recent Presidents like Clinton and Reagan. They had great skills to convey their message to the American Voter. To some extent W because he was able to make himself the Candidate to take on Terrorists, he was forceful and very confident.

And as much as I don't like Bill Clinton, he was very good at speeches and people were able to buy into it.Your Candidate Paul is nowhere near close to these guys. He may or may not have good ideas, but he needs to convey these ideas in debates with confidence and in a manner where People can take him seriously. He looks flustered and sometimes gets shrill in these debates so it's hard for anyone to take him seriously.

I sit here watching these debates and I see the most courageous man in politics that I've ever seen in my life, as he goes against popularly held misconceptions and fearlessly tells the truth. And when his detractors laugh at him, he holds his head high and doesn't change his position because he'd rather be right than be president.

Personally I don't think he is the most courageous man in Politics. There are many other more deserving politicians with that title, what I do respect about Paul is he is consistent on ideas. Some of which I disagree with.

[baja]

Never said that. But I do buy things like clothes and food and a house
and a pick-up and gas to fill it's tank. And the 70's money went
to buy a pick-up and gas to fill it, and food to fill my belly.

Let me ask it in this way than, what are the dollars you saved in 1970 worth today relative to what they were worth when you earned them?

[Rohirrim]

You guys are hung up on the pageant aspect of the presidential race.

Bingo. :thumbsup: Let's face it. If Lincoln were running today, he wouldn't stand a chance.

[Rohirrim]

I can't believe that anyone can watch Ron Paul in these debates and come home with the idea that Ron Paul is some sort of pushover. It just shows me how shallow people have become.

I sit here watching these debates and I see the most corageous man in politics that I've ever seen in my life, as he goes against popularly held misconceptions and fearlessly tells the truth. And when his detractors laugh at him, he holds his head high and doesn't change his position because he'd rather be right than be president.

It especially pains me when he says, "Let's just follow the Constitution" and McCain rolls his eyes while the media laughs along. Pathetic.

[orangenblue2]

I thought about starting this in its own thread, but I've decided to post it here. You see, the difference between Ron Paul's plan and John Edwards' plan is not only "in the details"...but in who actually supports and "endorses" it. I'll give you the link here: /www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20080102-economists/

Basically, it says that Edwards' plan is endorsed by 30 leading U.S. economists including heavy weights like Galbraith, McCloskey, Prestowitz, Palley, etc.. A full list of the economists and their pedigrees are available at the bottom of the link. How many leading U.S. economists are endorsing the good Dr. Paul's plan? Any?

[baja]

It especially pains me when he says, "Let's just follow the Constitution" and McCain rolls his eyes while the media laughs along. Pathetic.

This is why I believe nothing short of a very painful wake up call will be required to effect any real change.

As long as these self serving politicos have the formula to dupe the dopes into electing them we will have more of the same until we crash and burn..

[Taco John]

Really that must be why when i ask for specifics on his plans I'm given the poetic "I have seen the intricate tapestry that is Dr. Paul's plan" speech.

No idea what you are talking about. I give specifics in every discussion that I have.



It's your candidate, who's water you carry, that has very few specifics as to how his revolutionary change's will be implemented.

I reject your assertion.



All i am asking for is an explanion that has more thought behind it than "Just stop writing checks"


What more do you need? We are borrowing $1.2 billion dollars a day from Red China. Do you get that? Is that clear? They are using that money to buy America up. They are also using it to build their army. We then take that money to provide national defense for OTHER COUNTRIES while our own border goes unmanned. Is this registering? We give FREE MONEY to other countries that WE ARE BORROWING. I don't know how clear I can make this.

The solution? Stop giving away free money that we have to borrow. It's literally that simple. Stop writing checks. I'd love to hear why it's any more complicated than that. I'd love to hear why we must continue to rob Americans of their wealth in order to provide Japan with a national defense. I'd love to hear an argument. That would sure beat empty skepticism.

[TheDave]

The solution? Stop giving away free money that we have to borrow. It's literally that simple. Stop writing checks. I'd love to hear why it's any more complicated than that. I'd love to hear why we must continue to rob Americans of their wealth in order to provide Japan with a national defense. I'd love to hear an argument. That would sure beat empty skepticism.

You win... "Just stop writing checks"

How stupid of me to think there might be more to it.

I just assumed that since WWII we might of included in our negotiations with Japan the fact that we were their defatco military.

Hell since WWII we have become the richest strongest nation the world has ever seen. I just assumed that someone over the last 60+ years might of figured this out and used that as a bargining chip during some of the many negotiations we have had.

I assumed it might go something like this...

USA - We are going to charge a tariff on every auto you import

Japan - But you don't do that to England

USA - We are your military... It would be a shame if china swallowed you.

Japan - That Tariff sounds good to us

But obviously we just need to stop writing checks... It pains me that no one for the last 60+ years was able to think of this...

[Taco John]

Sorry but it's a fact. You look at the recent Presidents like Clinton and Reagan. They had great skills to convey their message to the American Voter. To some extent W because he was able to make himself the Candidate to take on Terrorists, he was forceful and very confident.

And as much as I don't like Bill Clinton, he was very good at speeches and people were able to buy into it.Your Candidate Paul is nowhere near close to these guys. He may or may not have good ideas, but he needs to convey these ideas in debates with confidence and in a manner where People can take him seriously. He looks flustered and sometimes gets shrill in these debates so it's hard for anyone to take him seriously.



Personally I don't think he is the most courageous man in Politics. There are many other more deserving politicians with that title, what I do respect about Paul is he is consistent on ideas. Some of which I disagree with.




I'm not interested in the pageantry of politics. I'm in if for the principle.

Clinton was a great orator, while he sold America up the river.

It's true that Dr. Paul isn't the most smooth speaker. I don't care about that. What I care about is what he's saying. And he's dead on constitutional.

And yes, he is the most courageous man in politics right now. I couldn't imagine anyone else who would be willing to put himself out there against popularly held misconceptions like he does, and flat tell it like it is.

[Taco John]

You win... "Just stop writing checks"

How stupid of me to think there might be more to it.


I don't think you thinking that there might be more to it is the problem. The problem is that you're not able to come up with that "more to it." I'd love to be able to have a discussion with you about this. If you ever come up with a point, be sure to fill us in.

[TailgateNut]

Really that must be why when i ask for specifics on his plans I'm given the poetic "I have seen the intricate tapestry that is Dr. Paul's plan" speech.

It's your candidate, who's water you carry, that has very few specifics as to how his revolutionary change's will be implemented.

No one else is calling for ALL of our troops to be brought home:
No one else is calling for the implemntation of competing gold and silver currencies:
No one else is calling for the dissolution of the IRS, FEMA, and the board of eductaion:

All i am asking for is an explanion that has more thought behind it than "Just stop writing checks"


See, that has been my point from the beginning with RP. He has all of these nation changing ideas, but has yet to come forward and explain in any detail as to how he plans to 1. convince the public (hence the lack of support) 2. how to fund his assinine ideas (hence the lack of belief) 3. how he will prevent the rest of the world from alienating themselves from us due to his actions 4. how he intends to still keep a viable defense system after removing all of our soldiers from around the globe. 5. what he intends to do with the sheer numbers of soldiers 6. how he intends to keep the educational system equal amongst the various states (will children who attend school in state A be able to attend college in state B, will they qualify), and how do we justify and mange funding for education in states which do not have the tax base which other states enjoy.7 with FEMA gone, who handles and pays for national disasters? 8. with the IRS gone, who and how is his "limited goverment" funded?

I could go on, but the RP ??????s are to numerous and his ideas are to far fetched.

[orangenblue2]

That would sure beat empty skepticism.

Again...I ask you Taco. How many leading U.S. economists endorse, approve of, line up behind, or even mention Ron Paul's historic (and late to the game) "Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan"? Give us something here...

[TheDave]

I don't think you thinking that there might be more to it is the problem. The problem is that you're not able to come up with that "more to it." I'd love to be able to have a discussion with you about this. If you ever come up with a point, be sure to fill us in.

To which you will summarily reject my assertion (again)... No thanks

[TailgateNut]

I thought about starting this in its own thread, but I've decided to post it here. You see, the difference between Ron Paul's plan and John Edwards' plan is not only "in the details"...but in who actually supports and "endorses" it. I'll give you the link here: /www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20080102-economists/

Basically, it says that Edwards' plan is endorsed by 30 leading U.S. economists including heavy weights like Galbraith, McCloskey, Prestowitz, Palley, etc.. A full list of the economists and their pedigrees are available at the bottom of the link. How many leading U.S. economists are endorsing the good Dr. Paul's plan? Any?


Thanks O+B2. I guess there are only 2 of us who support Edwards. Until these others can come up with better reasons to support their candidate, he is the best choice for me.

IMO Ron Pauls' radical notion that America is an Island doesn't fly with me!

[TheDave]

See, that has been my point from the beginning with RP. He has all of these nation changing ideas, but has yet to come forward and explain in any detail as to how he plans to 1. convince the public (hence the lack of support) 2. how to fund his assinine ideas (hence the lack of belief) 3. how he will prevent the rest of the world from alienating themselves from us due to his actions 4. how he intends to still keep a viable defense system after removing all of our soldiers from around the globe. 5. what he intends to do with the sheer numbers of soldiers 6. how he intends to keep the educational system equal amongst the various states (will children who attend school in state A be able to attend college in state B, will they qualify), and how do we justify and mange funding for education in states which do not have the tax base which other states enjoy.7 with FEMA gone, who handles and pays for national disasters? 8. with the IRS gone, who and how is his "limited goverment" funded?

I could go on, but the RP ??????s are to numerous and his ideas are to far fetched.

Nut... You just stop writing checks. Christ, how simple do I have to make this?

JUST STOP WRITING CHECKS...

[Taco John]

Again...I ask you Taco. How many leading U.S. economists endorse, approve of, line up behind, or even mention Ron Paul's historic (and late to the game) "Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan"? Give us something here...


That's a complicated question. Most US economists back the socialist Keynesian brand of economics. Ron Paul backs the Austrian brand of economics. Virtually every Austrian school economist backs his ideas. To Keynesian economists though, the idea that we have to operate on a balanced budget and that debt cannot be created without the capital to back it - well those fools would find that to be anathema.

[Rohirrim]

Thanks O+B2. I guess there are only 2 of us who support Edwards. Until these others can come up with better reasons to support their candidate, he is the best choice for me.

IMO Ron Pauls' radical notion that America is an Island doesn't fly with me!

He has denied that "isolationist" tag again and again. What he simply says is the we should follow the Constitution and the advice of George Washington. Trade with all, friendship with those who offer it, but "entangling alliances" with none. It's a concept that will keep us out of a whole bunch of stupid wars.

[Taco John]

To which you will summarily reject my assertion (again)... No thanks


I will reject your false assertions every time. You said stuff that wasn't true.

But the real problem here is that you don't make points. You say you and your friends laugh at the gold standard. But you don't make any points about why. You throw nothing out there that can be examined. You say we can't just stop writing checks. But you don't make any points about why we must continue to write them, even if we have to borrow money to do it.

Dave, you just say stuff. You don't put anything out there. And then when someone calls you on it, all you do is make fun of the point that they put out there, without providing any substance of your own.

I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why we should be providing free defense to Japan and Germany, while needing to borrow money from China. Can you even come up with one good reason?

[Taco John]

IMO Ron Pauls' radical notion that America is an Island doesn't fly with me!


That's not his notion. It doesn't fly with him either. Ron Paul thinks that we need to be friends with nations, and not get involved with their internal affairs. That's not isolationist. It's just being a good neighbor.

Am I an isolationist if I decide not to open my neighbor's mail and tell him how to run his life? What if I decide not to off his wife and "install" a new one for him that is going to be friendlier to me? Does that make me an isolationist?

Or does it just make me sensible?

[baja]

TJ - I challenge you: Give me a single good reason why we should be providing free defense to Japan and Germany, while needing to borrow money from China. Can you even come up with one good reason?

dave says because we promised after WWII, and you know circumstances never change, right.

[TheDave]

I will reject your false assertions every time. You said stuff that wasn't true.

But the real problem here is that you don't make points. You say you and your friends laugh at the gold standard. But you don't make any points about why. You throw nothing out there that can be examined. You say we can't just stop writing checks. But you don't make any points about why we must continue to write them, even if we have to borrow money to do it.

Dave, you just say stuff. You don't put anything out there. And then when someone calls you on it, all you do is make fun of the point that they put out there, without providing any substance of your own.



And that is a lie... I could go back and pull up several of my posts that have made points and asked pointed questions regarding RP. But we both know what you just said is not true.

As for you "Gold Standard" let me put this out there...it is impossible.

There is not enough mined gold in the world to back our economy...period. How would you propose to back our economy with a mineral that does not exist in large enough quantities?

[TheDave]

dave says because we promised after WWII, and you know circumstances never change, right.

I realize that you and TJ are the smartest people in the world, but isint there a chance that over the last 60+ years someone else might of thought of this?

Maybe we are getting more out of our relationship than you realize. I just find it hard to believe that for the last 6 decades we have gained nothing from our military arangements yet have become the richest most powerful nation the world has ever seen.

Just connecting the dots here...

[Taco John]

There is not enough mined gold in the world to back our economy...period. How would you propose to back our economy with a mineral that does not exist in large enough quantities?


What? That's silly. Quantity isn't the issue. Prices are the thing, and prices are abstract. The amount of gold doesn't matter. Prices are what matters. Prices will always be able to adjust up or down to meet the needs of the economy.

There are more than enough precious metals in the world to back a sound economy.

[Taco John]

Dave, do you believe there is enough oil to back our world economy? Because that's what's giving it its backing now.

[TheDave]

What? That's silly. Quantity isn't the issue. Prices are the thing, and prices are abstract. The amount of gold doesn't matter. Prices are what matters. Prices will always be able to adjust up or down to meet the needs of the economy.

There are more than enough precious metals in the world to back a sound economy.

No it's not silly... unfortunately it is uneducated on your part.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

The total amount of gold that has ever been mined is estimated at about 142,000 tonnes. At a gold price of US$800 per Troy ounce, or around $26,000 per kilogram, the value of this entire planetary stock would be $3.65 trillion, which is less than the value of cash circulating in the U.S. alone, where more than $7.3 trillion is in circulation or on deposit.

our GDP alone is $13 trillion per year... There is a reason why no country in the world is attached to this standard.

[Taco John]

Again...I ask you Taco. How many leading U.S. economists endorse, approve of, line up behind, or even mention Ron Paul's historic (and late to the game) "Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan"? Give us something here...



Ah! Great news! One of the most respected economists in the media just signed on with the Paul campaign:



January 24, 2008 5:40 pm EST

Don Luskin Named Economic Advisor to the Ron Paul 2008 Presidential Campaign

“Ron Paul’s economic plan is the real thing… not just a band-aid”

ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA – Newly appointed Ron Paul economic advisor, Donald L. Luskin, issued the following statement about Dr. Paul’s proposed comprehensive economic revitalization plan:

“Ron Paul’s economic plan is the real thing – a plan. It’s not just a band-aid designed to ‘stimulate’ the economy in an election year. It’s a fundamental agenda for real and lasting change, making the US economy more vibrant and competitive, and removing barriers to advancement for all Americans.”
Donald L. Luskin is Chief Investment Officer for Trend Macrolytics LLC and contributing editor to the National Review Online and SmartMoney.com. He is also a frequent guest on CNBC, and the author of two books: Index Options and Futures: The Complete Guide and Portfolio Insurance: A Guide to Dynamic Hedging.

Mr. Luskin is available for interviews regarding Congressman Paul’s economic policies.

Congressman Paul’s comprehensive economic revitalization plan can be found online at: www.RonPaul2008.com/Prosperity

###

[TailgateNut]

That's not his notion. It doesn't fly with him either. Ron Paul thinks that we need to be friends with nations, and not get involved with their internal affairs. That's not isolationist. It's just being a good neighbor.

Am I an isolationist if I decide not to open my neighbor's mail and tell him how to run his life? What if I decide not to off his wife and "install" a new one for him that is going to be friendlier to me? Does that make me an isolationist?

Or does it just make me sensible?

You have yet to address points 1-8.

Convince me that RP is a more viable, trustworthy candidate who's ideas are able to be implemented and I'll listen. But from where I stand many of his policies are going to cater to the wealthy.
I have done well in my life and am fairly comfortable, but my roots are blue collar, middle class and I feel that if we continue in the current direction we will end up with two classes of citizens in this country. The Have all and The Have nothing class.

What will your candidate do for the sinking middle class. How will he fix the current system for those who make Americas Heart Beat!

[TheDave]

Dave, do you believe there is enough oil to back our world economy? Because that's what's giving it its backing now.

No TJ, our dollars value is due to the fact that it is 100% backed by the federal govenment. Our money is not tied to any commodity.

[Taco John]

No it's not silly... unfortunately it is uneducated on your part.


Not at all. Dave, think about it. If we somehow (magically I presume) mined all the gold in the world, and the stock was finite, are you telling me the currency wouldn't adjust for this fact? Of course it would. In fact, it would become that much more valuable.

I love that though. It's uneducated, yet once again, you provide nothing but name calling with absolutely no reasoning attached to it. This seems to be the only thing you can do.



our GDP alone is $13 trillion per year... There is a reason why no country in the world is attached to this standard.


Bah... Inflated garbage. It would be nowhere near $13 trillion in real money.

[TheDave]

Not at all. Dave, think about it. If we somehow (magically I presume) mined all the gold in the world, and the stock was finite, are you telling me the currency wouldn't adjust for this fact? Of course it would. In fact, it would become that much more valuable.

I love that though. It's uneducated, yet once again, you provide nothing but name calling with absolutely no reasoning attached to it. This seems to be the only thing you can do.

Bah... Inflated garbage. It would be nowhere near $13 trillion in real money.

See now thats just sad... I show you one simple fact that makes your fantasy impossible and all you can do is respond with... Bah

Your intellectually dishonest, i didn't call you a name i simply stated that you were uneducated about this subject. Obviously, there is no reason to continue this conversation.

[Taco John]

No TJ, our dollars value is due to the fact that it is 100% backed by the federal govenment. Our money is not tied to any commodity.

Dave, no.

Where do you think the federal government gets it's backing for the dollar in global markets? Our dollar's value is directly tied to the demand for oil. This is because we've convinced OPEC nations to accept only US dollars in exchange for their oil. Thus, the higher the demand for oil, the higher the worldwide demand for the US dollar. Thus, the higher the price of oil, the more demand for US dollars there are around the world.

Our dollar is backed by demand for oil. You should do some research on the concept of the "petrodollar" sometime. That's the whole thing here. I find it laughable that anyone could say that the gold standard isn't feasible while backing the status quo. We're staring down the barrel of a gun. Unless, of course, you don't believe in peak oil -- in which case, we're just simply being swindled.

[Rohirrim]

I realize that you and TJ are the smartest people in the world, but isint there a chance that over the last 60+ years someone else might of thought of this?

Maybe we are getting more out of our relationship than you realize. I just find it hard to believe that for the last 6 decades we have gained nothing from our military arangements yet have become the richest most powerful nation the world has ever seen.

Just connecting the dots here...

What if a select group of corporate identities are receiving some monetary benefit from it? Let's say the military/industrial complex benefits from the relationship, but on a broader scale, the relationship works against the general interests of the American people? That certainly seems to be true in the case of the Saudis. American oil companies get the production contracts in the Gulf and our military protects them. Is that good for us, the people of America?

[Taco John]

See now thats just sad... I show you one simple fact that makes your fantasy impossible and all you can do is respond with... Bah

What are you talking about? You didn't show me anything. You made a false claim. What do you mean you showed me something? I blew what you said out of the water. Prices adjust. Your impossible roadblock is nothing but a straw man.


Your intellectually dishonest, i didn't call you a name i simply stated that you were uneducated about this subject. Obviously, there is no reason to continue this conversation.

Certainly not if you can't make an argument that holds any water. I read economics books every night because I think that it's the most important thing in America right now, and you're telling me that I'm uneducated? Seriously... Just about every night, I'm in my study with a book on economics. Don't tell me I'm uneducated because I can see through your strawman arguments. You are not providing any meat for this discussion.

You're in over your head.

[Taco John]

I'll issue the challenge once again Dave...

Give me a single good reason for why we should be providing a national defense for Japan, Germany, and France, while we borrow from China in order to provide that defense.

[Spider]

after reading a few post , I have decided that W*GS is wrong ........

[TheDave]

What if a select group of corporate identities are receiving some monetary benefit from it? Let's say the military/industrial complex benefits from the relationship, but on a broader scale, the relationship works against the general interests of the American people? That certainly seems to be true in the case of the Saudis. American oil companies get the production contracts in the Gulf and our military protects them. Is that good for us, the people of America?

You could be right... Like i said for 6 decades we have been the worlds defacto military. During that time we have become the wealthiest most powerful nation in the world. Is it possible that our corporations are the ones recieving the bennifit... absolutely. Since we are employed by these corporations do we also share in this bennefit?

Do you see how there is more to ending these parasitic relationships than "Just stop writing checks"?

[Spider]

I'll issue the challenge once again Dave...

Give me a single good reason for why we should be providing a national defense for Japan, Germany, and France, while we borrow from China in order to provide that defense.

Trade and Shipping lanes ....... Do you really think a International police force could do all of this work ?

[TheDave]

What are you talking about? You didn't show me anything. You made a false claim. What do you mean you showed me something? I blew what you said out of the water. Prices adjust. Your impossible roadblock is nothing but a straw man.

Certainly not if you can't make an argument that holds any water. I read economics books every night because I think that it's the most important thing in America right now, and you're telling me that I'm uneducated? Seriously... Just about every night, I'm in my study with a book on economics. Don't tell me I'm uneducated because I can see through your strawman arguments. You are not providing any meat for this discussion.

You're in over your head.

What ever you say boss... It's your board

[TheDave]

Trade and Shipping lanes ....... Do you really think a International police force could do all of this work ?


Jesus Mary and Joseph spider... You just stop writing checks... ;)

[Spider]

Jesus Mary and Joseph spider... You just stop writing checks... ;) LOL nonesense I got money I havent spent yet ;D

[Spider]

I'll issue the challenge once again Dave...

Give me a single good reason for why we should be providing a national defense for Japan, Germany, and France, while we borrow from China in order to provide that defense.

See this is a problem , you look at troops over seas and see that we are only defending countries , we are defending much more then that , trade lanes ,Shipping lanes , we also protect Americans in these countries , sometimes it isnt pretty , but it had to be done .....

[elsid13]

See this is a problem , you look at troops over seas and see that we are only defending countries , we are defending much more then that , trade lanes ,Shipping lanes , we also protect Americans in these countries , sometimes it isnt pretty , but it had to be done .....


Spider hitting the nail on the head. Nice job. Isolationism only leads to more freaking problems.

[baja]

I realize that you and TJ are the smartest people in the world, but isint there a chance that over the last 60+ years someone else might of thought of this?

Maybe we are getting more out of our relationship than you realize. I just find it hard to believe that for the last 6 decades we have gained nothing from our military arangements yet have become the richest most powerful nation the world has ever seen.

Just connecting the dots here...

Yes Dave we did get something out of it - a 7 trillion debt.

Please stop with the 'smartest people in the world' comments, I expect it from many here but you are better than that.

[Spider]

Please stop with the 'smartest people in the world' comments, I expect it from many here but you are better than that.

Yeah that kinda shocked me ...........we all know I am the smartest one here ;D

[baja]

Yeah that kinda shocked me ...........we all know I am the smartest one here ;D

I think he assumed we all take that as a given. ;D

[TailgateNut]

Yeah that kinda shocked me ...........we all know I am the smartest one here ;D

...and I am the dumbest!

[elsid13]

That's a complicated question. Most US economists back the socialist Keynesian brand of economics. Ron Paul backs the Austrian brand of economics. Virtually every Austrian school economist backs his ideas. To Keynesian economists though, the idea that we have to operate on a balanced budget and that debt cannot be created without the capital to back it - well those fools would find that to be anathema.

There are very few Keynesian economist the days, most economist that you find this days have he some form of monetarist/market view point. If you find one could you show him/her to me.

I prefer system model of the economic interaction that comes from system dynamic community.

[Spider]

I think he assumed we all take that as a given. ;D

;D
and I am the dumbest!
Errand ? ;D

[TailgateNut]

;D

Errand ? ;D


OK, 2nd place!

[baja]

...and I am the dumbest!

See post 183.



j/k

[elsid13]

Yeah that kinda shocked me ...........we all know I am the smartest one here ;D

Hate to break it you to big guy, but Hotrod been claiming that title for last year. I know it suck, but how can you argue with a guy that wears acid washed jeans and drives a pink riding lawn mower

[baja]

Hate to break it you big guy, but Hotrod been claiming that title for last year. I know it suck, but how can you argue with a guy that wear acid wash jeans and drive a pick riding lawn mower

Are typing on mock's keyboard? ;D

[elsid13]

Are typing on mock's keyboard? ;D

Mind in the wrong freaking place tonight. But the voices seem to make sense in my head. ;D

[baja]

Ah than you are using George Bush's keyboard. ;D

[Spider]

Hate to break it you to big guy, but Hotrod been claiming that title for last year. I know it suck, but how can you argue with a guy that wears acid washed jeans and drives a pink riding lawn mower

LOL true ...... Hotrod is my hero

[elsid13]

LOL true ...... Hotrod is my hero

he's the wind beneath your freaking wings

[baja]

or in his pants at least.

[loborugger]

Paul is not planning on returning to the gold and silver standard. He is saying to legalize gold and silver as legal currency as an option or a competing currency. Big difference!

Ok, I missed that from the post. Thanx.

However, isnt this point just a technicality? For example, pretend that I have 1000 in the current paper US dollars (well, in actually, that would be wife, but I digress). Meanwhile, TJ, as you pointed out, you would have 1000 in silver and/or gold.

Now, lets put your gold/silver into circulation against my greenbacks. I would imagine that soon my green backs wont be worth much. Meanwhile, the value of your precious metals will shoot up, que no?

In my mind - and maybe I am all awash on this - this whole making metals currency along with paper will make paper money just as useless as if we were on the gold standard and the paper I was currently holding wasnt backed by gold? In other words, you end up with the same result either way - a gold standard by de facto where the only currency worth anything is either precious metals or paper easily exchanged for this said metal.

Also, TJ, you stated in another thread - and I am gonna paraphrase from memory - that the real value of a nation is in its people and what they produce. Isnt that true whether a nation is on the fiat system or the gold standard? I think its true.

Finally, as Baja pointed out earlier in this thread, most money is exchanged electronically. So, it never exists in either a paper or precious metal form but instead in a digital 1 and 0 form. So does it really matter if the this digital $ can be redeemed for gold/silver?

[TheDave]

Yes Dave we did get something out of it - a 7 trillion debt.

Please stop with the 'smartest people in the world' comments, I expect it from many here but you are better than that.

Talk about intellectual dishonesty... In the 60+ years since WWII all you can see is 7 trillion in debt. The fact that we became the richest most powerful country the world has ever seen goes right by you?

There is much more to this than "Stop writing Checks" unfortunately neither you or TJ are honest enough to admit that... That makes this argument pointless.

[baja]

Look Dave I like you and respect you even hope to meet you one day why don't we just agree to disagree we are not going to sway one another on this issue so lets find a less of a button bushing topic to discuss. I know how about Derrius Watts, oh well maybe not that... peace bro... ;D

[baja]

Ok, I missed that from the post. Thanx.

However, isnt this point just a technicality? For example, pretend that I have 1000 in the current paper US dollars (well, in actually, that would be wife, but I digress). Meanwhile, TJ, as you pointed out, you would have 1000 in silver and/or gold.

Now, lets put your gold/silver into circulation against my greenbacks. I would imagine that soon my green backs wont be worth much. Meanwhile, the value of your precious metals will shoot up, que no?

In my mind - and maybe I am all awash on this - this whole making metals currency along with paper will make paper money just as useless as if we were on the gold standard and the paper I was currently holding wasnt backed by gold? In other words, you end up with the same result either way - a gold standard by de facto where the only currency worth anything is either precious metals or paper easily exchanged for this said metal.

Also, TJ, you stated in another thread - and I am gonna paraphrase from memory - that the real value of a nation is in its people and what they produce. Isnt that true whether a nation is on the fiat system or the gold standard? I think its true.

Finally, as Baja pointed out earlier in this thread, most money is exchanged electronically. So, it never exists in either a paper or precious metal form but instead in a digital 1 and 0 form. So does it really matter if the this digital $ can be redeemed for gold/silver?

The way I see it Lobo is the competing gold as currency would force the Fed into practices that protect the value of the dollar because of the historical value of the precious metal, for example the Fed would not stop announcing how much dollar currency is in circulation at any given time as they have as of six months ago and not just print money or create billions with the stroke of a key as they now do because when people lost faith in the dollar it's value would decrease relative the historically stable gold. It's the dollar that goes up and down because it is based on essentially nothing. The only thing holding it up now is OPEC's commitment to sell oil in dollars only.

[baja]

Personally I think one of the biggest reasons Bush was so anxious to attack Iraq is because of Saddam's announced intention to sell Iraq's oil in EURO's, same reason Bush wants to bomb Iran. As Ro posted we only get 17% of our oil from OPEC so what is all the hoopla about the Middle East.

[Rohirrim]

You could be right... Like i said for 6 decades we have been the worlds defacto military. During that time we have become the wealthiest most powerful nation in the world. Is it possible that our corporations are the ones recieving the bennifit... absolutely. Since we are employed by these corporations do we also share in this bennefit?

Do you see how there is more to ending these parasitic relationships than "Just stop writing checks"?

We need to add it up. I would argue that a huge reason for Bush to invade Iraq and toss Saddam was Saudi influence and protection (along with Israel's) along with Baja's point about Saddam selling oil in Euros. Of course, now we know that basically speaking, Iran has won, to the ultimate detriment of the Saudis. The American oil companies have benefitted, but of course they pay very little (or zero) taxes in the U.S. on the income they are earning in the Gulf. Meanwhile, we are paying those companies subsidies. I assume it used to be part of the deal to keep oil prices down, but obviously the Saudis are no longer playing along with that part of the deal. It looks to me like the American people are paying with their wealth and their blood and receiving very little return.

[Rohirrim]

See this is a problem , you look at troops over seas and see that we are only defending countries , we are defending much more then that , trade lanes ,Shipping lanes , we also protect Americans in these countries , sometimes it isnt pretty , but it had to be done .....

Man, the people who keep flapping this one around have some thick ****ing heads. Listen. The protection of sea lanes, oil supplies, etc. etc. etc. is not the responsibility of the U.S. alone. Why would it be? Do you know what we are doing? We are protecting all our trading partners so that they will do business with us. In other words, we are paying them to buy our products. What we used to do is build the best products in the world and world didn't have a choice, if they wanted the best, EXCEPT to buy from us.

It is us, and our corporations, who no longer believe in free trade and free markets. We want the entire world, and all of its markets, rigged. It's no surprise. Down through history the biggest chicken ****s have always been the merchant class. They want stability over everything else. It's time for the people of the U.S., represented by THEIR government, to disentangle themselves from the corporate chicken ****s.

Why should a child of America die to protect the trade of Japan?

[TheDave]

We need to add it up. I would argue that a huge reason for Bush to invade Iraq and toss Saddam was Saudi influence and protection (along with Israel's) along with Baja's point about Saddam selling oil in Euros. Of course, now we know that basically speaking, Iran has won, to the ultimate detriment of the Saudis. The American oil companies have benefitted, but of course they pay very little (or zero) taxes in the U.S. on the income they are earning in the Gulf. Meanwhile, we are paying those companies subsidies. I assume it used to be part of the deal to keep oil prices down, but obviously the Saudis are no longer playing along with that part of the deal. It looks to me like the American people are paying with their wealth and their blood and receiving very little return.

I agree with you... the tables seem to be VERY sqewed at this point. My major point of contention was/is that there has to be some tangible reason we do this. Agree or disagree with our actions over the decades we have become the richest most powerful nation ever. there has been major benefits to our nation, but the question does need to be asked... At what cost.

That is not to say that we should not try and decrease our footprint worldwide. But the reality of the matter is that some of these military arangements will most likely be dificult if not impossible to just erase. I would of greatly appreciated if RP's proposal offered some realistic redeployment numbers. possibly a timetable... maybe even a target or 2 (I.E. Germany). I just do not see this as an all or nothing game. A reduction of 50% would offer an immense savings to our nation while allowing us to maintain at least the most important relationships.

[Rohirrim]

I think the main problem is that old thing where once government establishes a program it's almost impossible to kill it. We built all these bases in Germany, Turkey, Korea, etc. to hem in the USSR. The USSR has been dead for 18 years and we are still manning the front to the cost of a trillion a year while our technology has outstripped the necessity of having forward positions. Mind boggling idiotic.

[Spider]

Man, the people who keep flapping this one around have some thick ****ing heads. Listen. The protection of sea lanes, oil supplies, etc. etc. etc. is not the responsibility of the U.S. alone. Why would it be? Have you seeen the UN track record on getting things done ?


Do you know what we are doing? We are protecting all our trading partners so that they will do business with us. In other words, we are paying them to buy our products. What we used to do is build the best products in the world and world didn't have a choice, if they wanted the best, EXCEPT to buy from us. Even if we got back to building things here , I think we should by the way , those trade routes still have to be protected ......

It is us, and our corporations, who no longer believe in free trade and free markets. We want the entire world, and all of its markets, rigged. It's no surprise. Down through history the biggest chicken ****s have always been the merchant class. They want stability over everything else. It's time for the people of the U.S., represented by THEIR government, to disentangle themselves from the corporate chicken ****s.

Why should a child of America die to protect the trade of Japan?
why protect the trade of Japan? cause we use those routes also , we stop protecting Trade routes , soon we will be only trading with ourselfs , we will become Isolationist , not by choice , but due to the lack of trade routes , then soon the pirates will become plentyfull , then they come here , you have to understand that there is bad in this world , before us the English took care of things , Before the English it was the romans ...... Trade routes are very important ...... after all would you really trust the South American Governments to protect shipping or trade routes south of us?

[Hotrod]

My tractor is yellow by the way.

[alkemical]

bah, i'm a blue or red man myself

[Spider]

My tractor is yellow by the way.
Ride Cowboy ride ....... http://www.neatitems.com/images/Riding_mower_1.jpg

[Rohirrim]

Have you seeen the UN track record on getting things done ?


Even if we got back to building things here , I think we should by the way , those trade routes still have to be protected ......


why protect the trade of Japan? cause we use those routes also , we stop protecting Trade routes , soon we will be only trading with ourselfs , we will become Isolationist , not by choice , but due to the lack of trade routes , then soon the pirates will become plentyfull , then they come here , you have to understand that there is bad in this world , before us the English took care of things , Before the English it was the romans ...... Trade routes are very important ...... after all would you really trust the South American Governments to protect shipping or trade routes south of us?

Believe me, the countries who benefit most from a trade route will defend it. Screw the UN. Why do you think the Indonesian navy patrols the Sunda Straight? They sure as hell aren't going to let pirates shut it down. It's their bread and butter. The point being, America is not, nor do we need to be, the policeman of the world.

[Spider]

Believe me, the countries who benefit most from a trade route will defend it. Screw the UN. Why do you think the Indonesian navy patrols the Sunda Straight? They sure as hell aren't going to let pirates shut it down. It's their bread and butter. The point being, America is not, nor do we need to be, the policeman of the world.

we dont need to be the policemen of the world , Just shipping a trade routes ,Japan had power once , look were it got us , alot of countries dont have the resources nor the man power , training .. to do such a task .......