Which poster/s most closely reflect your political ideologies?

[baja]

I will go first;

baja most closely aligned with Ro, TJ, Josh, Bronco Bob, LABF.

Listed in order of most closely aligned.

[W*GS]

Me, me, me, me, and me.

[baja]

Me, me, me, me, and me.

A truer post you have never made!!

[Kaylore]

Bronco Buff needs to link that political survey he had me take. Then you could actually see what the number is. I took it and came out as a "populist conservative" which I think jives with how I see myself.

Obviously LABF, Baja, and Freak6 are virtual clones of me politically. We always see eye-to-eye. ;D

Hotrod is so awesome I need to refer to him in his own sentence.

[baja]

Bronco Buff needs to link that political survey he had me take. Then you could actually see what the number is. I took it and came out as a "populist conservative" which I think jives with how I see myself.

Obviously LABF, Baja, and Freak6 are virtual clones of me politically. We always see eye-to-eye. ;D

Hotrod is so awesome I need to refer to him in his own sentence.

I happen to think this is a pretty good thread idea. Just because you don't particularly like me doesn't require that you ridicule the thread.

[Kaylore]

I happen to think this is a pretty good thread idea. Just because you don't particularly like me doesn't require that you ridicule the thread.

The first thing I did was make a legitimate suggestion on how quantify results. And please show me where I belittle your thread. Just because I make fun of how opposite I am to other posters, doesn't mean I hated you or your thread.

And I don't really know you, Baja. I'm sorry you feel I don't like you. I definitely don't share your doom and gloom world view. I see America as a beautiful country full of good people and opportunity. You see it as an evil police state that is controlled by corporations that ravage the world and keep the little man down. That isn't a reality I share with you.

[SoCalBronco]

I agree with Foneco on most issues, Hixon on some and Anubis only on his eight point punting platform.

[baja]

The first thing I did was make a legitimate suggestion on how quantify results. And please show me where I belittle your thread. Just because I make fun of how opposite I am to other posters, doesn't mean I hated you or your thread.

And I don't really know you, Baja. I'm sorry you feel I don't like you. I definitely don't share your doom and gloom world view. I see America as a beautiful country full of good people and opportunity. You see it as an evil police state that is controlled by corporations that ravage the world and keep the little man down. That isn't a reality I share with you.

Point taken Kaylore, I apologize. ;D

[baja]

I agree with Foneco on most issues, Hixon on some and Anubis only on his eight point punting platform.

Help me out here So Cal, who the hell is Foneco?

[baja]

The first thing I did was make a legitimate suggestion on how quantify results. And please show me where I belittle your thread. Just because I make fun of how opposite I am to other posters, doesn't mean I hated you or your thread.

And I don't really know you, Baja. I'm sorry you feel I don't like you. I definitely don't share your doom and gloom world view.<b> I see America as a beautiful country full of good people and opportunity.</b> You see it as an evil police state that is controlled by corporations that ravage the world and keep the little man down. That isn't a reality I share with you.

BTW I also see this. We are still the best but I do fear our great nation is under serious threat, not from terrorists, but from special interests from within.

[SoCalBronco]

Help me out here So Cal, who the hell is Foneco?

Just a little joke dude, some guy initially made some thread about the Steelers' Alan Faneca, but misspelled his last name as "Foneco" and then it just took off from there.

[Bronco Bob]

I'd say I agree with a lot of what Spider has to say, TheDave, Bronco Beerslug, Tailgatenut, and sometimes but not always Rhohirrim and LABF.
I even align with W*gs on the Troofers and Global warming.

[baja]

Just a little joke dude, some guy initially made some thread about the Steelers' Alan Faneca, but misspelled his last name as "Foneco" and then it just took off from there.

Oh, Got it!

[theAPAOps5]

Oh, Got it!

He got mad thinking we were making fun of him for suggesting we go after faneca. When we were just laughing at the spelling.

[TailgateNut]

orangeandblue2, BroncoBob, Spider (except for his immigration views), the Slug, Baja, Rohirim, LABF's antiBush views.....etc.....

[baja]

TGN do you like Edwards?

[Crushaholic]

On the political graph quiz W*GS had us take a while back, I think I was closest to defenseman and Hotrod. I'm sure there are others I can include. In the past, I've agreed with a lot of stances taken by Garcia Bronco, Watermock, and Kaylore.

[theAPAOps5]

Mock...... yeah thats right I said it.

[TheDave]

It completely depends on the topic...

War and general hatred for anything Bush... Spider, Baja, Bronco Bob, Roh, Tailgate, Clav, LABF, Slug etc.

Economy... Elsid, Slug, Cutt, LoneBolt, etc

Science... Bronco Bob and W*gs

Relegion... Spider (we seem to have a similar distrust for anything religious)

Honestly, I agree with some takes of every poster on here except Captn. Mininukes ;D

[Kaylore]

Ok here it is. (http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html)

I personally feel that the quiz is overly simplistic, but since this thread is all in good fun, here's how I scored.

[yavoon]

Ok here it is. (http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html)

I personally feel that the quiz is overly simplistic, but since this thread is all in good fun, here's how I scored.

70 economic, 50 personal.

[Blueflame]

'Bout what I expected... ;)

[SoCalBronco]

Mock...... yeah thats right I said it.

STFU....Mock told you he has all the answers to these issues. Only now that I have been proven right are you bandwagoning. How very amusing. The man rolls into a ball, what part of that escapes you? Oustsanding. Your an idiot. Mock told you the price of gold would nearly quadruple in the span of 3 weeks. I worked as a broker for 35 years a-hole, so don't give me any lip. This whole site is literally unbelievable. Mock loves it when he sees all these candidates pandering to the military crowd...the fact is my grandfather was a 4 star general and slapped Hitler in the face in WWII, so STFU and STFD. Sit down and shutup. Mock told you the monetary end needed to be tightened up, we needed to tighten it the **** up...no one listened. You can't even bring an argument. Mock told you we were wasting time searching in Iraq since all the weapons were being stored underground in the Samarra Valley in Syria. Morons. Beezer's feverishly chewing on his tail at the entire absurdity of the whole concept. Mock cried when I realized months ago all the problems with the loans would occur, I was crying for these people months ago, so get off my back, dickweed. Noone ever bothered to ask me how to get around this issue, its rather simple. Get a clue. Mock's kittens simply won't stand for this deficit. Beezer's chewing on my hand now, its rather painful, altho i suspect its in retaliation for trying to spray WD-40 down his throat. Now listen you dimwits, I'm going to say this one time again and only one more time for the clowns on this site, we can't begin talking about health care and all that other silly **** until you address the balance of payments issues and fixing all the price support problems. My dad was a self made millionaire and I am running 5 different LLCs, so go put on your dunce cap. This whole campaign is literally unreal. I hope all the politicians are happy with this cluster****. Ridiculous.

:)

(We miss you Mock, please get better and come back to your usual self soon. It just isnt as fun anymore. :( )

[MecksEgo]

I love Meck

[24champ]

I would say my politics are closely aligned with the great Mghaffney...

[theAPAOps5]

I miss Mock.

[Arkie]

I agree with all ten issues...

LIBERTARIANS support maximum liberty in both personal and
economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one
that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence.
Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose
government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate
diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=10

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 100%.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Which poster/s most closely reflect your political ideologies?

Wow - too many to mention.

Roh, Beerslug, Bronco Bob (although we obviously don't see eye to eye re: 9/11.)

Baja, TailgateNut, Rigs, Gunns, Gaffney, Traveler, Spider, BroncoBuff, Bronco Inferno, Pendejo, and freak.

Apologies to anyone I've forgotten.

[24champ]

Apologies to anyone I've forgotten.

Apology accepted. ;D

[baja]

Here's me ;D

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=8&e=8

our PERSONAL issues Score is 80%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 80%.

[baja]

STFU....Mock told you he has all the answers to these issues. Only now that I have been proven right are you bandwagoning. How very amusing. The man rolls into a ball, what part of that escapes you? Oustsanding. Your an idiot. Mock told you the price of gold would nearly quadruple in the span of 3 weeks. I worked as a broker for 35 years a-hole, so don't give me any lip. This whole site is literally unbelievable. Mock loves it when he sees all these candidates pandering to the military crowd...the fact is my grandfather was a 4 star general and slapped Hitler in the face in WWII, so STFU and STFD. Sit down and shutup. Mock told you the monetary end needed to be tightened up, we needed to tighten it the **** up...no one listened. You can't even bring an argument. Mock told you we were wasting time searching in Iraq since all the weapons were being stored underground in the Samarra Valley in Syria. Morons. Beezer's feverishly chewing on his tail at the entire absurdity of the whole concept. Mock cried when I realized months ago all the problems with the loans would occur, I was crying for these people months ago, so get off my back, dickweed. Noone ever bothered to ask me how to get around this issue, its rather simple. Get a clue. Mock's kittens simply won't stand for this deficit. Beezer's chewing on my hand now, its rather painful, altho i suspect its in retaliation for trying to spray WD-40 down his throat. Now listen you dimwits, I'm going to say this one time again and only one more time for the clowns on this site, we can't begin talking about health care and all that other silly **** until you address the balance of payments issues and fixing all the price support problems. My dad was a self made millionaire and I am running 5 different LLCs, so go put on your dunce cap. This whole campaign is literally unreal. I hope all the politicians are happy with this cluster****. Ridiculous.

:)

(We miss you Mock, please get better and come back to your usual self soon. It just isnt as fun anymore. :( )

OMG So Cal that is unbelievably good You nailed his persona - Damn I'm still laughing that was so fuuckin great. A++++

You forgot your = you're ;D

This is going in the "Post of the Century" thread.

I really miss Mock What's going on with his recovery?

[baja]

I agree with all ten issues...

LIBERTARIANS support maximum liberty in both personal and
economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one
that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence.
Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose
government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate
diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=10

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 100%.

The only reason I'm not there with ya is because I want a draft.

[baja]

BTW I forgot Gunns and Arkie

[Florida_Bronco]

Bronco Buff needs to link that political survey he had me take. Then you could actually see what the number is. I took it and came out as a "populist conservative" which I think jives with how I see myself.

Obviously LABF, Baja, and Freak6 are virtual clones of me politically. We always see eye-to-eye. ;D

Hotrod is so awesome I need to refer to him in his own sentence.

Speaking of which...whatever happened to Freak6? I know he got banned and haven't seen him since.

[Crushaholic]

Here's my answer to THIS little quiz...

[24champ]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=5&e=10

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 50%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 100%.

[theAPAOps5]

The only reason I'm not there with ya is because I want a draft.

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=8&e=8

Here's mine. Baja its easy to say you want a draft you won't be drafted and live in Mexico. I am not calling you out I am just saying no one who isn't capable of being drafted should never say they are for or against it. I myself am against involuntary service and if the government is having troubles with enrollment they need to stop spreading the force thin and starting useless conflicts.

[Bronco Bob]

Oh, didn't realize there was a chart. Here is my score and my chart.

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 80%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 40%.

[Denver Crush]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=5

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 50%.

[Kaylore]

Speaking of which...whatever happened to Freak6? I know he got banned and haven't seen him since.

Don't know, don't care.

[Cito Pelon]

BTW I also see this. We are still the best but I do fear our great nation is under serious threat, not from terrorists, but from special interests from within.

"Our" great nation? You're an expatriate, eh?

[Kaylore]

"Our" great nation? You're an expatriate, eh?

zowie! SL-AM!

[SoCalBronco]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=5&e=6

[baja]

"Our" great nation? You're an expatriate, eh?

and

quote:
Originally Posted by Cito Pelon
"Our" great nation? You're an expatriate, eh?

SL-AM!

You know all you guys really show with posts like this is your incredible ignorance and shallow mindedness.

[Bronco Yoda]

Considering I'm the only one correct about everything on all issues.... I guess I must stand alone?:thanku:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=8&e=7

[Spider]

Odd I thought more people would agree with me seeing how I am always right

[Bronco Bob]

Odd I thought more people would agree with me seeing how I am always right

It's just you and me, buddy. (see post #12 if you missed it)

[Spider]

It's just you and me, buddy. (see post #12 if you missed it)

:wiggle: oh Dead from the neck up , cuthisowndickoff , and Men mounting men want ot be in this club , but I refuse to teach them our secret handshake

[Taco John]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=10

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

ACCORDING TO YOUR ANSWERS,

The political group that
agrees with you most is...

LIBERAL (duh!)

LIBERALS usually embrace freedom of choice in personal matters, but tend to support significant government control of the economy. They generally support a government-funded "safety net" to help the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation of business. Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations, defend civil liberties and free expression, support government action to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyles.

The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=8&e=3

[Kaylore]

and

quote:
Originally Posted by Cito Pelon
"Our" great nation? You're an expatriate, eh?

SL-AM!

You know all you guys really show with posts like this is your incredible ignorance and shallow mindedness.

You're mad because I thought he slammed you? Dude Baja, you are the most sensitive person on this message board. I would've thought spending all your time in the WRP forum would desensitize someone but it would appear the reverse is true and every time someone makes a comment you assume it was a slight on you in some way and go pout about it. Lighten up, dude.

[Breaker]

CENTRIST

CENTRISTS espouse a "middle ground" regarding government
control of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on
the issue, they sometimes favor government intervention
and sometimes support individual freedom of choice.
Centrists pride themselves on keeping an open mind,
tend to oppose "political extremes," and emphasize what
they describe as "practical" solutions to problems.

The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=5&e=7
Your PERSONAL issues Score is 50%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 70%.

[Spider]

CENTRIST

CENTRISTS espouse a "middle ground" regarding government
control of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on
the issue, they sometimes favor government intervention
and sometimes support individual freedom of choice.
Centrists pride themselves on keeping an open mind,
tend to oppose "political extremes," and emphasize what
they describe as "practical" solutions to problems.

The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=5&e=7
Your PERSONAL issues Score is 50%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 70%.
LOL LOL yeah and I am a tourist with a ****ty travel agent Hilarious!

[cheese1]

Gouda

[Breaker]

LOL LOL yeah and I am a tourist with a ****ty travel agent Hilarious!

How would you know? The only time that I have posted on here so far is when it comes to foreign policy and general economic thought. Socially I am in complete disagreement with Republics, stem cell research I support, Abortion I support, and the current immigration ideas proposed by Bush with sanctuary cities are idiotic. I didn't event vote for the bastard the last time, I did the first time, I learned from my first mistake. The main problem with Left Wingers like you and LABF and Righties like WAGS is that you assume if the person doesn't share your thoughts on every single issue they must be extremely right or left wing, maybe you shouldn't paint a person with such a broad brush and actually ask their opinions on stuff before you start shooting from the hip.

[baja]

You're mad because I thought he slammed you? Dude Baja, you are the most sensitive person on this message board. I would've thought spending all your time in the WRP forum would desensitize someone but it would appear the reverse is true and every time someone makes a comment you assume it was a slight on you in some way and go pout about it. Lighten up, dude.

The way I took that Kaylore, Your 'SLAM' comment
was like high five-ing a person that just made an ignorant, incorrect and offensive remark about another person. My status as an American and my right as an American citizen is constantly marginalized on this forum because of my address. One clown even called me a lier about my military service to my country, the USA. I think this line of thinking is incredibly small minded and yes you are right i am sensitive about this issue.

BTW Did you all know Mike Shanahan is my neighbor part of the year, that's right he owns a place in Cabo. Does that make him a traitor to his country because he has an address in Mexico? Did he forfeit his right to be concerned about the problems in the USA. Has he turned his back on this country Is he a coward? Without having ever met me these are all things I have been accused of merely because of my address part of the year.

[Spider]

How would you know? The only time that I have posted on here so far is when it comes to foreign policy and general economic thought. Socially I am in complete disagreement with Republics, stem cell research I support, Abortion I support, and the current immigration ideas proposed by Bush with sanctuary cities are idiotic. I didn't event vote for the bastard the last time, I did the first time, I learned from my first mistake. The main problem with Left Wingers like you and LABF and Righties like WAGS is that you assume if the person doesn't share your thoughts on every single issue they must be extremely right or left wing, maybe you shouldn't paint a person with such a broad brush and actually ask their opinions on stuff before you start shooting from the hip.
I have read enough of your post to see you are hard right leaning ... Nothing wrong with that , like me I support coal , Nuclear energy , I am not anti war , just Iraq , I dont believe in abortion , but I dont think the Gov should tell anyone what to do , I am not gay , but if 2 guys want to knock boots , have at it , I dont have to do it .... They want ot get married thats their problem .....and I am a DEMOCRAT , I lean left ..... I am not defensive over it , nor am i ashamed of it .........

[Breaker]

I have read enough of your post to see you are hard right leaning ... Nothing wrong with that , like me I support coal , Nuclear energy , I am not anti war , just Iraq , I dont believe in abortion , but I dont think the Gov should tell anyone what to do , I am not gay , but if 2 guys want to knock boots , have at it , I dont have to do it .... They want ot get married thats their problem .....and I am a DEMOCRAT , I lean left ..... I am not defensive over it , nor am i ashamed of it .........

As you can see from the Centrist graph I am centrist to the right, that is hardly hard right leaning however. Far right are the religious zealots, neo- cons, and others that I am not even close to being.

[Spider]

As you can see from the Centrist graph I am centrist to the right, that is hardly hard right leaning however. Far right are the religious zealots, neo- cons, and others that I am not even close to being.

I didnt even accuse you of being those , that little quiz is hardly a measure of where you are politicaly ,I could go on and on , but no need in that .... Iwill give having a serious talk with you a shot .....Let me ask you , if I stood up and said , I am voting for Hillary , would you consider me a liberal ?

[W*GS]

I scored (duh!) 100 on both, making me a perfect libertarian. Yay.

This ol' thing is like the politicalcompass.org survey, only much simpler, more biased, and obviously not very discriminatory in figuring out the differences between people. There are also only three options.

[Spider]

One of the problems is , I knew along time ago the difference in Neo cons , old school Republicans , Hard right wingers , just as I knew Liberals from Dems , Green .......
we put a lot of these groups under umbrellas , right or left , we need to make it easy as possible ......

[Spider]

Ha! I even hate anti smoking laws , and I am not a smoker , where does that fit on your polical compass

[baja]

Ha! I even hate anti smoking laws , and I am not a smoker , where does that fit on your polical compass

Normally i would agree with you but cigarette smoke is a proven health hazard and people have a right to not be exposed to a known health hazard that causes death.

[Breaker]

I didnt even accuse you of being those , that little quiz is hardly a measure of where you are politicaly ,I could go on and on , but no need in that .... Iwill give having a serious talk with you a shot .....Let me ask you , if I stood up and said , I am voting for Hillary , would you consider me a liberal ?

I will try to explain this as best I can, hopefully its not confusing the way that I put it, if it is and you care try to get me to clarify. This is going to be viewed as evasive, but you voting for her does not automatically mean you are a liberal because it depends on the reasons you are voting for her. It has to do with how much importance you place on each of the specific issues.

I will most likely support foreign policy and economic stances that are what the general population believes to be "conservative", I believe that they are the correct means by which to run a country. This does not however mean I am in support of the Iraqi war, whh I am not. However if a candidate was to come forth that was in favor of ending social welfare programs like SS, Medicare etc and was for the war, I would vote for that person because I think those programs are absolutely terrible and will seriously destroy this nations economy, I may place a higher value on that issue than that of the Iraq war. My vote does not make me a conservative, it makes me a voter.

I would not consider you a liberal or a conservative because those terms, just like Republican and Democrat, are words that are politically inaccurate and constricting. If you voted for Hillary I would consider you dead wrong and slightly insane, but not conservative or liberal. I believe that it is stupid to think in terms of conservative or liberal, those are labels that people simply use to sling mud and try to categorize people into in and out groups, largely for psychological reasons. Opinions are not conservative or liberal in my view they are just opinions. The media and society has attempted to attach labels to these words so that they can control and separate individuals into groups.

I would consider myself neither liberal or conservative because I have beliefs that are labeled as such from both sides, my opinions just happen to be split rather evenly across the multiple issue areas as opposed to being concentrated on either of the so called "liberal" or "conservative" sides,

I will admit that I tend to take the conservative side on here because the WRP board is a "liberal" controlled forum, and I seriously disagree with most of the stances that people have on here because they are focused on economics and foreign policy. As a result I get labeled a conservative or a republican, which is not true in either case. Especially because I am not registered with a political party, I am independent.

Why I dislike certain posters and attack them has to do more with my lack of respect for how they go about stating political thoughts, as opposed to the beliefs that they have.

Ok, now I get off my soapbox.

[Spider]

I will try to explain this as best I can, hopefully its not confusing the way that I put it, if it is and you care try to get me to clarify. This is going to be viewed as evasive, but you voting for her does not automatically mean you are a liberal because it depends on the reasons you are voting for her. It has to do with how much importance you place on each of the specific issues. so you understand that there is liberals / Conservitives in both parties .......

I will most likely support foreign policy and economic stances that are what the general population believes to be "conservative", I believe that they are the correct means by which to run a country. This does not however mean I am in support of the Iraqi war, whh I am not. However if a candidate was to come forth that was in favor of ending social welfare programs like SS, Medicare etc and was for the war, I would vote for that person because I think those programs are absolutely terrible and will seriously destroy this nations economy, I may place a higher value on that issue than that of the Iraq war. My vote does not make me a conservative, it makes me a voter.
her lies the crux of the problem , how can you be against Social programs and consider yourself a centrist ??? .......
I would not consider you a liberal or a conservative because those terms, just like Republican and Democrat, are words that are politically inaccurate and constricting. If you voted for Hillary I would consider you dead wrong and slightly insane, but not conservative or liberal. I believe that it is stupid to think in terms of conservative or liberal, those are labels that people simply use to sling mud and try to categorize people into in and out groups, largely for psychological reasons. Opinions are not conservative or liberal in my view they are just opinions. The media and society has attempted to attach labels to these words so that they can control and separate individuals into groups.
I am not voting for Hillary , but voting for Hillary is no where as stupid or as big of a mistake as voting for Bush ......

I would consider myself neither liberal or conservative because I have beliefs that are labeled as such from both sides, my opinions just happen to be split rather evenly across the multiple issue areas as opposed to being concentrated on either of the so called "liberal" or "conservative" sides, Depends on the issues ....... SS or other social programs are not the burden of Corp. Welfare is , but yet , you said nothing about that ...... Perhaps you need to reevaulate your political affiliation

I will admit that I tend to take the conservative side on here because the WRP board is a "liberal" controlled forum,

Dont bull**** me , this was a very hard right board not that long ago .... The only difference now is the right wingers know they ****ed up , so they sit i nthe dunce corner and keep their pie hole shut ........

and I seriously disagree with most of the stances that people have on here because they are focused on economics and foreign policy. As a result I get labeled a conservative or a republican, which is not true in either case. Especially because I am not registered with a political party, I am independent. again it is the issues , hot button issues will get you labeled and fast , if you cant handle that , perhaps this forum is too rough .....

Why I dislike certain posters and attack them has to do more with my lack of respect for how they go about stating political thoughts, as opposed to the beliefs that they have.

Ok, now I get off my soapbox.
LOL well you better get alot better in the attacking part , this forum is rough , I have offered to get loads to certian places just to meet someone to knock the **** out of them ..... this is no cake walk down here

[cutthemdown]

Ha! I even hate anti smoking laws , and I am not a smoker , where does that fit on your polical compass

How do you feel about some drugs being illegal?

[Spider]

How do you feel about some drugs being illegal?

LOL , for you , make them all legal , your ass needs all the help it can get to cope

[Spider]

Normally i would agree with you but cigarette smoke is a proven health hazard and people have a right to not be exposed to a known health hazard that causes death.

Mushrooms can cause cancer , so can coffee , Cheese nips give me the squirts ...... do we want an orwellian society ?
I dont smoke , someone smokes that is around me , I am free to get up and leave ...... No one is forcing me to sit there .... If I am in a Bar , and it is smokey , I can`always step out side , or move next to the door ..........

[cutthemdown]

I came out centrist on that chart also, right dab in the middle of it. I think it describes me well. I am conservative on issues like immigration, war on terror, national defense, social programs. But I am liberal on issues like drugs and abortion, money for the arts, religion. It's hard for centrist to find a good politician to support because most of them stick to one side or the other.

[cutthemdown]

Mushrooms can cause cancer , so can coffee , Cheese nips give me the squirts ...... do we want an orwellian society ?
I dont smoke , someone smokes that is around me , I am free to get up and leave ...... No one is forcing me to sit there .... If I am in a Bar , and it is smokey , I can`always step out side , or move next to the door ..........

So then you are probably for legalizing drugs right?

[Spider]

So then you are probably for legalizing drugs right?

for you yes , I feel special people should be allowed to be stoned

[cutthemdown]

Mushrooms can cause cancer , so can coffee , Cheese nips give me the squirts ...... do we want an orwellian society ?
I dont smoke , someone smokes that is around me , I am free to get up and leave ...... No one is forcing me to sit there .... If I am in a Bar , and it is smokey , I can`always step out side , or move next to the door ..........

What about the person who works in that same place? They can't just quit it's there job. They are forced to breath the smoke in. Shouldn't they be protected?

[Spider]

What about the person who works in that same place? They can't just quit it's there job. They are forced to breath the smoke in. Shouldn't they be protected?
yo uapply for a job in a bar , and shocked people smoke that would be like me applying for a job in construction when I have a fear of heights ............ Remember what I was saying about Drugs and you .......Consider them

[Spider]

Or applying for a job on a shrimp boat and you dont want to get near the water ........ WTF ever happened to common sense ?

[gunns]

Roh, Broncobob, LABF, theDave, baja, Beerslug, Spider. I don't agree with them all the time, but they are the closest.

In response to Kaylore thinking those of us that think along these lines, we do see America much the same way you do. We're just tired of those trying to destroy that image.

[Kaylore]

The way I took that Kaylore, Your 'SLAM' comment
was like high five-ing a person that just made an ignorant, incorrect and offensive remark about another person.
It was akin to saying owned. He zinged you. Cito and I aren't buddies. I liken a message board to a high school hallway and he cock-punched you and I was standing by and went "OH, Snap!"

My status as an American and my right as an American citizen is constantly marginalized on this forum because of my address. One clown even called me a lier about my military service to my country, the USA. I think this line of thinking is incredibly small minded and yes you are right i am sensitive about this issue. Sorry people rip on where you live. People here rip my religion all the time and no one is crying foul for me. I just let it go.

BTW Did you all know Mike Shanahan is my neighbor part of the year, that's right he owns a place in Cabo. Does that make him a traitor to his country because he has an address in Mexico? Did he forfeit his right to be concerned about the problems in the USA. Has he turned his back on this country Is he a coward? Without having ever met me these are all things I have been accused of merely because of my address part of the year. I'm sorry to hear that. I will say that some of your posts suggest you worry as you "see America turning into a police state" and if you're not living here to actually witness this supposed loss of freedoms, then it could appear disingenuous to some.

That said, I don't care where someone lives. I spent two years overseas and voted via absentee ballot myself, so I can appreciate your perspective. And thank you for your military service. :USA:

[spdirty]

The way I took that Kaylore, Your 'SLAM' comment
was like high five-ing a person that just made an ignorant, incorrect and offensive remark about another person. My status as an American and my right as an American citizen is constantly marginalized on this forum because of my address. One clown even called me a lier about my military service to my country, the USA. I think this line of thinking is incredibly small minded and yes you are right i am sensitive about this issue.

BTW Did you all know Mike Shanahan is my neighbor part of the year, that's right he owns a place in Cabo. Does that make him a traitor to his country because he has an address in Mexico? Did he forfeit his right to be concerned about the problems in the USA. Has he turned his back on this country Is he a coward? Without having ever met me these are all things I have been accused of merely because of my address part of the year.

I didn't know you were in Cabo. My old man bought a place there, moved there in 2000, and only lasted a few months becasue of the corruption. He was pissed he had to put bars up on his windows. Felt nervous whenever he left for more than 15 minutes. We are about to go back there because apparently someone thinks that his house is theirs and we will be taking it back and kicking them out. Is the 20/20 club still up there?

[spdirty]

son of a bltch, this test is stupid.

The political group that
agrees with you most is...
.
CENTRIST

CENTRISTS espouse a "middle ground" regarding government
control of the economy and personal behavior. Depending on
the issue, they sometimes favor government intervention
and sometimes support individual freedom of choice.
Centrists pride themselves on keeping an open mind,
tend to oppose "political extremes," and emphasize what
they describe as "practical" solutions to problems.

The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=4&e=6
Your PERSONAL issues Score is 40%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 60%.
(Scores falling on the Centrist border are counted as Centrist.)

[spdirty]

k thats better...

ACCORDING TO YOUR ANSWERS,
The political group that
agrees with you most is...
.
CONSERVATIVE

CONSERVATIVES tend to favor economic freedom, but frequently
support laws to restrict personal behavior that violates "traditional
values." They oppose excessive government control of business,
while endorsing government action to defend morality and the
traditional family structure. Conservatives usually support a strong
military, oppose bureaucracy and high taxes, favor a free-market
economy, and endorse strong law enforcement.

The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=0&e=10
Your PERSONAL issues Score is 0%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 100%.
(Please note: Scores falling on the Centrist border are counted as Centrist.)

[baja]

Mushrooms can cause cancer , so can coffee , Cheese nips give me the squirts ...... do we want an orwellian society ?
I dont smoke , someone smokes that is around me , I am free to get up and leave ...... No one is forcing me to sit there .... If I am in a Bar , and it is smokey , I can`always step out side , or move next to the door ..........

So far no one has made me eat their mushrooms or drink their coffee but I am often forced to inhale other's cigarette smoke just by mingling in the general society. seems like everybody but me smokes cigarettes here. While I am dining at a fine and expensive restaurant I have had 4 people light up at the table next to me just as i am severed my meal some of them are eating mushrooms and drinking coffee and that does not affect my health in any way but as we all now know the second hand smoke definitely does. The right to healthy air is a very basic right that's why no one minds when the government goes after industrial air polluters, cigarette smoke is no different. Should I be forced to stay at home in order to breath clean healthy air?

[BroncoBuff]

Just a little joke dude, some guy initially made some thread about the Steelers' Alan Faneca, but misspelled his last name as "Foneco" and then it just took off from there.
Thank goodness I finally understand that. That gaff really went viral on this board.

Khan, I'll post that survey link that gives you a read-out again.

For myself, I rarely disagree with LABF on anything ... but I think we disagree on the death penalty (I'm against it 100% of the time) and drilling in ANWaR (I'm for it). Other than that we agree always.

Plus - though it's not really a policy issue - I'm skeptical about large-scale voter fraud, unlike LABF.

[Spider]

So far no one has made me eat their mushrooms or drink their coffee but I am often forced to inhale other's cigarette smoke just by mingling in the general society. seems like everybody but me smokes cigarettes here. While I am dining at a fine and expensive restaurant I have had 4 people light up at the table next to me just as i am severed my meal some of them are eating mushrooms and drinking coffee and that does not affect my health in any way but as we all now know the second hand smoke definitely does. The right to healthy air is a very basic right that's why no one minds when the government goes after industrial air polluters, cigarette smoke is no different. Should I never eat out?

well resteraunts should offer non smoking or smoking section , or if a resteraunt wants to be for smokers let em same with non smoking , you could have asked the waiter to move you , or turned around , looked at those 4 people and say , if you dont put those out while I am eating , I will shove those cigs up your ass ......
sometimes you have to take matters into our own hands .... now air polluters are a different story , that effects the out of doors , kind hard to escape that ....... comparing smokers to factories is like comparing a yugo to a Peterbilt

[baja]

It was akin to saying owned. He zinged you. Cito and I aren't buddies. I liken a message board to a high school hallway and he cock-punched you and I was standing by and went "OH, Snap!"

<b>Sorry people rip on where you live. People here rip my religion all the time and no one is crying foul for me. I just let it go. </b>

I'm sorry to hear that. I will say that some of your posts suggest you worry as you "see America turning into a police state" and if you're not living here to actually witness this supposed loss of freedoms, then it could appear disingenuous to some.

That said, I don't care where someone lives. I spent two years overseas and voted via absentee ballot myself, so I can appreciate your perspective.<b> And thank you for your military service.</b> :USA:

Maybe that's what you do now but I remember strong complaining posts and appeals to TJ when someone slammed your religious beliefs, rightfully so IMO (I never did that, in fact this Monday I am going to a Kingdom Hall meeting by invitation because I am interested in their 'End Times' strategies).

All of my family lives in the states and I go to the states about once a month I usually spend summers there too although in recent years I have been traveling abroad.

You are welcome my fellow citizen.

[Spider]

Just like these idiots that are going after fast food ..Sure the fast food companies should have the calories , sugar , etc listed , and fast food doesnt belong in schools , but for adults , they can make their own choices ...Dont need ****ing government passing laws on everythng , we have enough laws now ....if I want ot eat trans fat , I will eat trans fat ....

[BroncoBuff]

Here's the "Your Candidate" survey: Click Here (http://www.dehp.net/candidate/)

It's MUCH more detailed that this other very simple survey, but be careful when you take this ^ survey - many questions are poorly written with double negatives, etc... read carefully.



My political classification:
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2728/31578357vc3.jpg


For a very simple questionairre, that is very accurate. I desribe myself as a liberal, leaning libertarian.
.

[spdirty]

Just like these idiots that are going after fast food ..Sure the fast food companies should have the calories , sugar , etc listed , and fast food doesnt belong in schools , but for adults , they can make their own choices ...Dont need ****ing government passing laws on everythng , we have enough laws now ....if I want ot eat trans fat , I will eat trans fat ....

well hell, those are your people banning smoking and trying to ban fast food.

[baja]

I didn't know you were in Cabo. My old man bought a place there, moved there in 2000, and only lasted a few months becasue of the corruption. He was pissed he had to put bars up on his windows. Felt nervous whenever he left for more than 15 minutes. We are about to go back there because apparently someone thinks that his house is theirs and we will be taking it back and kicking them out. Is the 20/20 club still up there?

Baja is a very rough and corrupt place but with all the infusion of foreign dollars it is changing but not very fast.

Yes I think 20/20 is still here operating in Cabo along with 5 or 6 other 'dance halls' ;D

[Spider]

well hell, those are your people banning smoking and trying to ban fast food. yeah so ? do you really expect me to step in line with the Democratic party like you do with republican party ?
See when the republicans were ****ing up , you went Rah Rah Rah hooray for ourside , if you dont like it you are just a hater ...... that **** doesnt fly with me , the dems are ****ing up , I am calling em on it .......

[spdirty]

Baja is a very rough and corrupt place but with all the infusion of foreign dollars it is changing but not very fast.

cops there were frickin super corrupt. I remember driving and got pulled over cuz they said my lights were out...told me it was a 40 dollar fine and I had to give em cash right there on the spot. So I did and they let me go, not even recognizing the beer cup I had sitting in my lap.

Yes I think 20/20 is still here operating in Cabo along with 5 or 6 other 'dance halls' ;D

lost my virginity there.:D

[baja]

... comparing smokers to factories is like comparing a yugo to a Peterbilt
__________________

I disagree with your analogy air polluting health hazards should be regulated regardless of the offender, clean air should be a basic human right.

[BroncoBuff]

Lost my virginity there.:D
To a Mexican hooker?

[spdirty]

To a Mexican hooker?

yeah...that was one hell of a night.

[baja]

To a Mexican hooker?

Surprisingly enough most of the club hookers here are American women, real pretty or so I'm told.

I wonder does that make them cowards who gave up their right to be concerned about the happenings in the USA? ;D

[Spider]

I disagree with your analogy air polluting health hazards should be regulated regardless of the offender, clean air should be a basic human right.

I see an all or nothing argument , so someone smoking a cig can create miles and miles of pollution acid rain , brown clouds over cities .....one hellve chain smoker wouldnt you agree

[spdirty]

Surprisingly enough most of the club hookers here are American women, real pretty or so I'm told.

really?? I never saw a single american hooker over there but yet I haven't been over there since Clinton was in office.

[baja]

I see an all or nothing argument , so someone smoking a cig can create miles and miles of pollution acid rain , brown clouds over cities .....one hellve chain smoker wouldnt you agree

Spider second hand smoke is killing people through no fault of their own this potentially includes your kids too. I say they have a right to live their lives freely and without being forced to endure this known killer. That is my position on the matter.

[baja]

really?? I never saw a single american hooker over there but yet I haven't been over there since Clinton was in office.

Really I don't go to those clubs but that is what I am told. I was surprised when I heard that too.

[Spider]

Spider second hand smoke is killing people through no fault of their own this potentially includes your kids too. I say they have a right to live their lives freely and without being forced to endure this known killer. That is my position on the matter.

so are you saying I invite people into my house to smoke at will ?
Smoking party at spiders house ...... smoke if you got em ......
I drag my kids to smoke filled bars and shout Drink up kids , dont worry about being alkies , the second hand smoke will kill you first ......... Sure son go ahead , put your face as close to the fire place as you can and breathe in deep , the up side of that is you wont have ot pay taxes very long .........

[baja]

so are you saying I invite people into my house to smoke at will ?
Smoking party at spiders house ...... smoke if you got em ......
I drag my kids to smoke filled bars and shout Drink up kids , dont worry about being alkies , the second hand smoke will kill you first ......... Sure son go ahead , put your face as close to the fire place as you can and breathe in deep , the up side of that is you wont have ot pay taxes very long .........

I'm sure you know what I mean Spider, if there were no regulations smokers would light up anywhere and everywhere. Do your kids leave the house. ;D

[Spider]

I'm sure you know what I mean Spider, if there were no regulations smokers would light up anywhere and everywhere. Do your kids leave the house. ;D

LOL do they leave the house ? not enough in my opinion ...... 13 year old is old enough for a job if you ask me ;D
But I take my oldest son with me on Runs in the summer time ( too many risk for him to ride along in winter conditions ) we go into truckstops , they have a very liberal smoking policy , we sit in the non smoking section , we sit close to the door in the movie room etc ....... but I dont expect the entire place to go smoke free just because we are there

[baja]

Well my friend we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;D

If someone was sniffing spray paint on the floor of wal-mart would you say, just step over him son it's his right to sniff paint after all it's his body and spray paint is legal.

[Spider]

Well my friend we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. ;D

If someone was sniffing spray paint on the floor of wal-mart would you say, just step over him son it's his right to sniff paint after all it's his body and spray paint is legal.

All I can do is lead by example ......

[baja]

All I can do is lead by example ......

Oh! Which color is your favorite?

[Kaylore]

Just like these idiots that are going after fast food ..Sure the fast food companies should have the calories , sugar , etc listed , and fast food doesnt belong in schools , but for adults , they can make their own choices ...Dont need ****ing government passing laws on everythng , we have enough laws now ....if I want ot eat trans fat , I will eat trans fat ....
I'm with you, Spider. If someone wants to smoke, hit themselves with a hammer, sniff glue or whatever then I think it's not the government's job to say what they can do with their body. As long as the companies are being honest about what's in their product then I couldn't care less. I do hate smoking and support non-smoking areas, but I'm against wholesale bans on it.

[Orange_Beard]

Me. I am most closely aligned with myself.

[theAPAOps5]

BTW Did you all know Mike Shanahan is my neighbor part of the year, that's right he owns a place in Cabo. Does that make him a traitor to his country because he has an address in Mexico? Did he forfeit his right to be concerned about the problems in the USA. Has he turned his back on this country Is he a coward? Without having ever met me these are all things I have been accused of merely because of my address part of the year.

Baja I apologize I used the Mexico residence in my post about the draft. I didn't think about the fact that you are only a part time resident. I know your post was more directed towards Cito but I wanted to apologize for my post.

As for Shanny. Heck Peggy Shanahan and the kids are there more than half the year. I used to track the Customs logs for flights in and out of Centennial because we had to make sure it was being paid for as it was a user based system. The plane they use is down in Cabo all the time!

[baja]

Thanks for taking the time to say that Apa. I respect those that are man enough to do that.

[Bob]

[QUOTE=L.A. BRONCOS FAN;1858447]ACCORDING TO YOUR ANSWERS,

The political group that
agrees with you most is...

LIBERAL (duh!)

LIBERALS usually embrace freedom of choice in personal matters, but tend to support significant government control of the economy. They generally support a government-funded "safety net" to help the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation of business. Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations, defend civil liberties and free expression, support government action to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyles.

Unless you are a conservative of course... then you are a deviant, that must be exposed, dismissed and misquoted. ;)

[Bob]

Don't know, don't care.

Never seen more blind hatred of any poster here ... and that is saying something.

[Bob]

Normally i would agree with you but cigarette smoke is a proven health hazard and people have a right to not be exposed to a known health hazard that causes death.

And the natural extension of that is that as trans fatts are also dangerous, white bread, and a sedentary lifestyle we need to regulate that as well -- if the governments picks up the tab, they are more likely to tell evryone how to live -- because after all -- it is good for them, and they are paying for it. Its a dangerous trend guys. Next thing you know they are going to regulating themostats in California to reduce greenhouse gasses.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Unless you are a conservative of course... then you are a deviant, that must be exposed, dismissed and misquoted. ;)

"Conservative" isn't a lifestyle.

You just can't win for losing in your attempts to defend a thoroughly discredited movement, can you?

:rofl:

[Bob]

I came out centrist on that chart also, right dab in the middle of it. I think it describes me well. I am conservative on issues like immigration, war on terror, national defense, social programs. But I am liberal on issues like drugs and abortion, money for the arts, religion. It's hard for centrist to find a good politician to support because most of them stick to one side or the other.

I think that nuance cannot be tolorated -- far to hard to lable you and intellectually dismiss you as a "neocon."

[baja]

And the natural extension of that is that as trans fatts are also dangerous, white bread, and a sedentary lifestyle we need to regulate that as well -- if the governments picks up the tab, they are more likely to tell evryone how to live -- because after all -- it is good for them, and they are paying for it. Its a dangerous trend guys. Next thing you know they are going to regulating themostats in California to reduce greenhouse gasses.

You will never meet a person more vehement opposed to the type of regulation you speak of, the difference is trans fat white bread etc you have a choice rather to put in your body or not. That is not the case with second hand smoke - a big difference. Hell I wish the US would legalize all drugs and tax the hell out of them. Surprised that you don't see the difference Bob

[Bob]

"Conservative" isn't a lifestyle.

You just can't win for losing in your attempts to defend a thoroughly discredited movement, can you?

:rofl:

Not sure what you mean. Conservatism is an ideological framework that does influence decisions about the role of government, personal life style, and usually social issues -- to me it seems like a “lifestyle.”

Conservatism is no more discredited, than liberalism --

Please don’t mention Bush as a prime example as a conservative in rebuttal – I think in many ways he has been discredited because he was something other than conservative – at least on issues that I care about -- as my head may explode. :-*

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I liken a message board to a high school hallway...

No surprise there. :giggle:

[Bob]

You will never meet a person more vehement opposed to the type of regulation you speak of, the difference is trans fat white bread etc you have a choice rather to put in your body or not. That is not the case with second hand smoke - a big difference. Hell I wish the US would legalize all drugs and tax the hell out of them. Surprised that you don't see the difference Bob

I see it, and being LDS dont care much for smoking, and the costs to society -- but just wonder worry about incrimental steps and trends that are taking place in terms of choice -- second smoke -- I guess I can see, but for those on the anti-smoking bandwagon -- I doubt that they would be satisfied with just reducing that.

To me, it seems like the government wants to controll more and more in what we consume -- and the TREND I see is that as they pay for more, the more they want to tell us how to live.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Not sure what you mean. Conservatism is an ideological framework that does influence decisions about the role of government, personal life style, and usually social issues -- to me it seems like a “lifestyle.”


Thanks for making my point for me.

An ideological framework that influences lifestyle choices is not the same thing as a lifestyle. (Otherwise there would be no log cabin republicans, conservatives who smoke pot, watch porn, etc.)

Conservatism is no more discredited, than liberalism --

Please don’t mention Bush as a prime example as a conservative in rebuttal – I think in many ways he has been discredited because he was something other than conservative – at least on issues that I care about -- as my head may explode. :-*

But those in the conservative movement hitched their wagon to Bush, and Bush drove the wagon off the cliff (which is why it bothers you so much that we won't stop mentioning Bush!)

[baja]

I see it, and being LDS dont care much for smoking, and the costs to society -- but just wonder worry about incrimental steps and trends that are taking place in terms of choice -- second smoke -- I guess I can see, but for those on the anti-smoking bandwagon -- I doubt that they would be satisfied with just reducing that.

<b>To me, it seems like the government wants to controll more and more in what we consume -- and the TREND I see is that as they pay for more, the more they want to tell us how to live.</b>

Right on Bob and ya know that is the logical progression to a Fascist State.

[Bronco Bob]

And the natural extension of that is that as trans fatts are also dangerous, white bread, and a sedentary lifestyle we need to regulate that as well -- if the governments picks up the tab, they are more likely to tell evryone how to live -- because after all -- it is good for them, and they are paying for it. Its a dangerous trend guys. Next thing you know they are going to regulating themostats in California to reduce greenhouse gasses.

There are a great many problems with trans-fat. The most well known
is that they raise bad cholesterol levels while simultaneously lowering
good cholesterol levels. They are far worse than saturated fats,
because while saturated fats do raise your bad cholesterol, saturated
fats do also raise your good cholesterol. So with trans-fats your poor
arteries good a double dose, artery clogging bad cholesterol with less good
cholesterol there to remove it.
Then another problem with trans-fats. Natural fats have a C shape and are
springy. But artificially made fats like trans fats have a stiff, linear molecule.
So when they get incorporated into your cell walls the cell walls become
more brittle and prone to rupture. This causes a whole host of problems
such as making it easier for a virus to invade your cells, making your
veins and arteries stiffer, making you muscles less efficient, stiffer
joints. It even interferes with the electrical activity of your brain,
impairing your thinking and memory. Tran-fats are just a total
disaster on your body. When I go to buy something in a store,
the first thing I look for on the label is if it has any trans-fat in
it. If it does, back on the shelf it goes. Anybody defending using
trans-fats in our food is either a complete total idiot or works
for some margarine or shortening company.

[baja]

There is a very good read about oils and fats,

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/imageDB.cgi?isbn=9780920470381

Synopsis:
Some fats and oils are required for the proper functioning of the body. Udo Erasmus argues that proper use of fats can even reverse cancer, diabetes, PMS, asthma, addictions, and more. This book takes an in-depth look at the oil industry and the politics of health.

[Bronco Bob]

There is a very good read about oils and fats,

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/imageDB.cgi?isbn=9780920470381

Synopsis:
Some fats and oils are required for the proper functioning of the body. Udo Erasmus argues that proper use of fats can even reverse cancer, diabetes, PMS, asthma, addictions, and more. This book takes an in-depth look at the oil industry and the politics of health.

The thing that pissed me off was that until recently food manufactures weren't
even required to list the amount of trans-fats in food. It took severe lobbying
by consumers to finally get Congress off their asses and pass laws requiring
listing the amount of trans-fats in our food.

[baja]

The thing that pissed me off was that until recently food manufactures weren't
even required to list the amount of trans-fats in food. It took severe lobbying
by consumers to finally get Congress off their asses and pass laws requiring
listing the amount of trans-fats in our food.

You would find this web site very informative BB.

http://www.newstarget.com/021789.html

[Bob]

Anybody defending using
trans-fats in our food is either a complete total idiot or works
for some margarine or shortening company.[/QUOTE]

Damn, you caught me ...

I do represent an underground group of neocon corporate operatives (a wholly owned subsidiary of Frito Lay) who secretly want to influence the grass-roots movement of morbidly obese Republicans who look to end their own lives through more Tammy-Fey-Baker-appropriate means --- the turning of their bodies into a sold mass, through massive consumption of Cheetos dipped in Ranch sauce.

But please dont tell LA -- he already suspects something....

[baja]

We're all on to you Bob.

[JCMElway]

I'm right there with Spider, Broncobuff, and LABF.

[baja]

So you're voting for Gore than?

[Bob]

Thanks for making my point for me.

An ideological framework that influences lifestyle choices is not the same thing as a lifestyle. (Otherwise there would be no log cabin republicans, conservatives who smoke pot, watch porn, etc.)



But those in the conservative movement hitched their wagon to Bush, and Bush drove the wagon off the cliff (which is why it bothers you so much that we won't stop mentioning Bush!)

Well, I guess I cant aurgue with that point...

I have heard the "log cabin conservative" phrase used before on ABC, et all -- but wonder if they are a creation of the media-- what are they supposed to be??? Una-bombers that only mail packages that use boring packaging?

[JCMElway]

So you're voting for Gore than?

Heh. Yeah, I did vote for Gore, and he would have made a decent President. He definetly follows my list of priorities: the environment, lower emissions, animal rights, gay rights, etc......

I would say that I am socially Liberal and a fiscal centrist. That about sums me up.

[yavoon]

Well, I guess I cant aurgue with that point...

I have heard the "log cabin conservative" phrase used before on ABC, et all -- but wonder if they are a creation of the media-- what are they supposed to be??? Una-bombers that only mail packages that use boring packaging?

log cabin republicans are usually just gay fiscal conservatives who are more worried about the economy. gays can be small gov't too!

[SoCalBronco]

Heh. Yeah, I did vote for Gore, and he would have made a decent President. He definetly follows my list of priorities: the environment, lower emissions, animal rights, gay rights, etc......

I would say that I am socially Liberal and a fiscal centrist. That about sums me up.

Where's Vice President Gore on the important issues, i.e., what are his stances on the following:

1. BPA vs. Needs
2. Trading Up vs. Stockpiling
3. Preferred Mix of High Ceiling/Low Floor vs. Low Ceiling/High Floor


These are the REAL ISSUES Americans should be concerned about. ;D

"I support trading down because its the right course for America. My name is SoCalBronco and I approve of this message"
:USA:

[baja]

I know it's officially off season but this post belongs on the main page after all football talk doesn't belong here. ;D

[yavoon]

Where's Vice President Gore on the important issues, i.e., what are his stances on the following:

1. BPA vs. Needs
2. Trading Up vs. Stockpiling
3. Preferred Mix of High Ceiling/Low Floor vs. Low Ceiling/High Floor


These are the REAL ISSUES Americans should be concerned about. ;D

"I support trading down because its the right course for America. My name is SoCalBronco and I approve of this message"
:USA:

trading down is reckless and spanks of irresponsible naivete. we need a longterm plan for this country, one that involves building from the ground floor up with solid high end draft choices. not some slipshod pyramid scheme designed around hitting a bunch of longshots!

[baja]

3. Preferred Mix of High Ceiling/Low Floor vs. Low Ceiling/High Floor


This is what a true patriot would say. ;D

[SoCalBronco]

trading down is reckless and spanks of irresponsible naivete. we need a longterm plan for this country, one that involves building from the ground floor up with solid high end draft choices. not some slipshod pyramid scheme designed around hitting a bunch of longshots!

"Thank you, South Carolina. Thank you...thank you...thank you. I am honored to win here tonight and I'm glad you support our message, its a winning message for this party that has worked for America numerous times in history. It's a message thats brought hope to millions, a message of loading up on young talent, loading up on them cheaply, so we don't have to subject our kids and grandkids to the reckless spending excesses of misses on very high picks, that we can load up and address a number of areas of our nation that require immediate assistance...we understand that today in America, there are many issues and problems that require repair, we need to reach out and address them all...because we believe,...thats right my fellow Americans..we believe that in order to have a strong America, everyone has to be lifted up, every problem has to be addressed, its irresponsible and wrong and it sends a horrible message to leave some problems to decay, to grow cancerous and to be our downfall simply because we choose to splurge our precious resources on just one crisis, to blow our wad for the shaky promise of just an answer to a single issue. It's wrong to entrust these things to the pricey dangers of free agency, we will not take expensive risks with our future, we will not trust aging, motivationless free agents looking for a payday, we're going to do the right thing, we're going to build it the right way, we're going to invest in youngsters and we're going to get alot of them. Well, I'll make you a promise tonight, America, we're going to address all these issues, we're going to trade down, we're going to trade fungible parts, we're going to accumulate our picks, we're going to hit our weaknesses, we're going to get younger and more talented in a number of spots, its the right thing to do and we're going to get it done. Incidentally, we have heard from our rival candidate tonight, Mr. Yavoon....no, no, no boos please, we're all on the same side here,, I just want to say, I just want to make a pledge tonight, that if the rest of this country follows the lead of this great state and we win the nomination and this high office that I seek, we will not allow yavoon to force through the 3-4 defense. I'll get out that veto pen and I'll use it again and again and again and I'll make him famous for trying to force that through. They'll be no 3-4 in this administration, we won't let you down, so help me God. "

[yavoon]

"Thank you, South Carolina. Thank you...thank you...thank you. I am honored to win here tonight and I'm glad you support our message, its a winning message for this party that has worked for America numerous times in history. It's a message thats brought hope to millions, a message of loading up on young talent, loading up on them cheaply, so we don't have to subject our kids and grandkids to the reckless spending excesses of misses on very high picks, that we can load up and address a number of areas of our nation that require immediate assistance...we understand that today in America, there are many issues and problems that require repair, we need to reach out and address them all...because we believe,...thats right my fellow Americans..we believe that in order to have a strong America, everyone has to be lifted up, every problem has to be addressed, its irresponsible and wrong and it sends a horrible message to leave some problems to decay, to grow cancerous and to be our downfall simply because we choose to splurge our precious resources on just one crisis, to blow our wad for the shaky promise of just an answer to a single issue. Well, I'll make you a promise tonight, America, we're going to address all these issues, we're going to trade down, we're going to trade fungible parts, we're going to accumulate our picks, we're going to hit our weaknesses, we're going to get younger and more talented in a number of spots, its the right thing to do and we're going to get it done. Incidentally, we have heard from our rival candidate tonight, Mr. Yavoon....no, no, no boos please, we're all on the same side here,, I just want to say, I just want to make a pledge tonight, that if the rest of this country follows the lead of this great state and we win the nomination and this high office that I seek, we will not allow yavoon to force through the 3-4 defense. I'll get out that veto pen and I'll use it again and again and again and I'll make him famous for trying to force that through. They'll be no 3-4 in this administration, we won't let you down, so help me God. "

haha no 3-4. you win by length, I've been fillibustered!

[alkemical]

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=8

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 80%.

[alkemical]

I don't even agree with myself.....

[Rohirrim]

My applause to yavoon and SoCal. That was pretty damn good. ;D

However, let me remind you both, in the words of that eminent scholar and draftnik Rick Gosselin, "Good players come to he who does not trade down." Often, a team might find itself at a crossroads. It may see dangers ahead and seek to take the easy path, loading up on possibilities and chances, filling a roster with no names in the hopes of striking gold on the cheap. That way lies disaster, my friends. That way lies the path to mediocrity, my friends. Why seek the hidden jewel in the mud when, hanging like the ripened fruit overhead is that for which you long: The playmaker!!! He who wants to enjoy great rewards must risk greatly. He must reach out. He must strive. In short, he must grab for the golden ring! He must trade up! And so I say to you, ladies and gentlemen, ask not what the draft can do for you, ask how you can trade up and draft Sedrick Ellis.

Thank you, thank you very much. :thanku:

[baja]

So you're voting for Obama then. ;D

[Rohirrim]

So you're voting for Obama then. ;D

:spit:

[Bronco Bob]

Well, I guess I cant aurgue with that point...

I have heard the "log cabin conservative" phrase used before on ABC, et all -- but wonder if they are a creation of the media-- what are they supposed to be??? Una-bombers that only mail packages that use boring packaging?

Don't know what a log cabin conservative is, but the Log Cabin Republicans
are a group of homosexuals who support the Republican agenda of limited
government, a strong military, and lower taxes, but also advocate equal
rights for gays and lesbians. Here is their website if you are thinking of joining.

http://online.logcabin.org/about/

[alkemical]

Don't know what a log cabin conservative is, but the Log Cabin Republicans
are a group of homosexuals who support the Republican agenda of limited
government, a strong military, and lower taxes, but also advocate equal
rights for gays and lesbians. Here is their website if you are thinking of joining.

http://online.logcabin.org/about/


Wow, something they can get behind!

[Cito Pelon]

The way I took that Kaylore, Your 'SLAM' comment
was like high five-ing a person that just made an ignorant, incorrect and offensive remark about another person. My status as an American and my right as an American citizen is constantly marginalized on this forum because of my address. One clown even called me a lier about my military service to my country, the USA. I think this line of thinking is incredibly small minded and yes you are right i am sensitive about this issue.

BTW Did you all know Mike Shanahan is my neighbor part of the year, that's right he owns a place in Cabo. Does that make him a traitor to his country because he has an address in Mexico? Did he forfeit his right to be concerned about the problems in the USA. Has he turned his back on this country Is he a coward? Without having ever met me these are all things I have been accused of merely because of my address part of the year.

So what's with your Baja Mexico orientation? You don't like us or what? You snipe from afar.

[Cito Pelon]

I will try to explain this as best I can, hopefully its not confusing the way that I put it, if it is and you care try to get me to clarify. This is going to be viewed as evasive, but you voting for her does not automatically mean you are a liberal because it depends on the reasons you are voting for her. It has to do with how much importance you place on each of the specific issues.

I will most likely support foreign policy and economic stances that are what the general population believes to be "conservative", I believe that they are the correct means by which to run a country. This does not however mean I am in support of the Iraqi war, whh I am not. However if a candidate was to come forth that was in favor of ending social welfare programs like SS, Medicare etc and was for the war, I would vote for that person because I think those programs are absolutely terrible and will seriously destroy this nations economy, I may place a higher value on that issue than that of the Iraq war. My vote does not make me a conservative, it makes me a voter.

I would not consider you a liberal or a conservative because those terms, just like Republican and Democrat, are words that are politically inaccurate and constricting. If you voted for Hillary I would consider you dead wrong and slightly insane, but not conservative or liberal. I believe that it is stupid to think in terms of conservative or liberal, those are labels that people simply use to sling mud and try to categorize people into in and out groups, largely for psychological reasons. Opinions are not conservative or liberal in my view they are just opinions. The media and society has attempted to attach labels to these words so that they can control and separate individuals into groups.

I would consider myself neither liberal or conservative because I have beliefs that are labeled as such from both sides, my opinions just happen to be split rather evenly across the multiple issue areas as opposed to being concentrated on either of the so called "liberal" or "conservative" sides,

I will admit that I tend to take the conservative side on here because the WRP board is a "liberal" controlled forum, and I seriously disagree with most of the stances that people have on here because they are focused on economics and foreign policy. As a result I get labeled a conservative or a republican, which is not true in either case. Especially because I am not registered with a political party, I am independent.

Why I dislike certain posters and attack them has to do more with my lack of respect for how they go about stating political thoughts, as opposed to the beliefs that they have.

Ok, now I get off my soapbox.

Well, that right there pretty much makes you a conservative, doesn't it? Sorry, but that's the dividing line. Some people believe in making the US a First World nation, the philosophy being make everybody look good, make this nation the best it can be.

Then there's people that really don't care about the nation as a whole, they're just interested in how good they do as individuals.

Consider this:

The US did just fine from 1933 on trying to make everybody look good, we made ourselves superb as a whole. Then we went into decline when Reagan made it fashionable to make just oneself look good, the cult of the individual. Just consider that a while.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Then there's people that really don't care about the nation as a whole, they're just interested in how good they do as individuals.


I believe they're called "Republicans." :yep:

[yavoon]

Well, that right there pretty much makes you a conservative, doesn't it? Sorry, but that's the dividing line. Some people believe in making the US a First World nation, the philosophy being make everybody look good, make this nation the best it can be.

Then there's people that really don't care about the nation as a whole, they're just interested in how good they do as individuals.

Consider this:

The US did just fine from 1933 on trying to make everybody look good, we made ourselves superb as a whole. Then we went into decline when Reagan made it fashionable to make just oneself look good, the cult of the individual. Just consider that a while.

wth? america has always been about individualism. it wasn't created by reagan you ridiculous historical revisionist.

[Rohirrim]

Well, that right there pretty much makes you a conservative, doesn't it? Sorry, but that's the dividing line. Some people believe in making the US a First World nation, the philosophy being make everybody look good, make this nation the best it can be.

Then there's people that really don't care about the nation as a whole, they're just interested in how good they do as individuals.

Consider this:

The US did just fine from 1933 on trying to make everybody look good, we made ourselves superb as a whole. Then we went into decline when Reagan made it fashionable to make just oneself look good, the cult of the individual. Just consider that a while.

Until we do something to change it, we are still living in the "greed is good" era that Raygun gave birth to. As a society, we have to come to the decision that no, greed is not good.

[yavoon]

Until we do something to change it, we are still living in the "greed is good" era that Raygun gave birth to. As a society, we have to come to the decision that no, greed is not good.

greed built america. if greed isn't good, move to cuba. this is all so absurd, greed is the most powerfully positive force in human history. charity doesn't move ppl out of poverty, profit does. communism didn't move the chinese out of poverty, capitalism did.

[Spider]

wth? america has always been about individualism. it wasn't created by reagan you ridiculous historical revisionist.

............

[Spider]

Well, that right there pretty much makes you a conservative, doesn't it? Sorry, but that's the dividing line. Some people believe in making the US a First World nation, the philosophy being make everybody look good, make this nation the best it can be.

Then there's people that really don't care about the nation as a whole, they're just interested in how good they do as individuals.

Consider this:

The US did just fine from 1933 on trying to make everybody look good, we made ourselves superb as a whole. Then we went into decline when Reagan made it fashionable to make just oneself look good, the cult of the individual. Just consider that a while.
These Punks should have been around before the labor movement and FDR ... these ****s would be the first ones crying their eyes out over living off of less then 50 cents a day .......

[DomCasual]

I believe they're called "Republicans." :yep:

Didn't the founding fathers have sort of strong feelings about the whole self-interest thing? ???

[Rohirrim]

greed built america. if greed isn't good, move to cuba. this is all so absurd, greed is the most powerfully positive force in human history. charity doesn't move ppl out of poverty, profit does. communism didn't move the chinese out of poverty, capitalism did.

Wow! Just wow. You are one twisted ****. What's that; The new politics of sociopathism?

[Rohirrim]

Didn't the founding fathers have sort of strong feelings about the whole self-interest thing? ???

They designed their concept of government based on their pragmatic understanding of human nature, but I don't remember any of them celebrating that facet of our nature. Come to think of it, I can't remember any religion using that as a selling point either. Isn't there some kind of commandment against that ****? ;D

[yavoon]

Wow! Just wow. You are one twisted ****. What's that; The new politics of sociopathism?

its the noticing of reality. post wwII, the era of increasing global capitalism is the most prosperous time in the history of all humanity. human beings are raised up by greed, because greed creates innovation, greed creates advancement, greed creates value. greed creates ambition, the cornerstone of growth. growth is why greed/profit based economies like america's stomp the crap outta ****ty zero sum economies.

[alkemical]

Wow! Just wow. You are one twisted ****. What's that; The new politics of sociopathism?

Gotta love the neo-darwinists.

[Rohirrim]

its the noticing of reality. post wwII, the era of increasing global capitalism is the most prosperous time in the history of all humanity. human beings are raised up by greed, because greed creates innovation, greed creates advancement, greed creates value. greed creates ambition, the cornerstone of growth. growth is why greed/profit based economies like america's stomp the crap outta ****ty zero sum economies.

Why? Because everybody has a TV? You couldn't be more wrong. And not just wrong, but twisted. Greed doesn't create innovation. Creativity creates innovation. You sound like Gordon Gecko.

What's next? I can just see it, like some kind of SNL skit. Lust is good. Lust allows our species to proliferate. Gluttony is good. Gluttony helps us properly set a value on food. Sloth is good. It allows us to set a value on the importance of rest. Wrath is good. It just means you have some passion. Envy is good. It makes you feel better when you have driven yourself through greed to attain something that other people resent you for. Could there be a better feeling? How about pride? If you don't like it, go to Cuba. :rofl:

[yavoon]

Why? Because everybody has a TV? You couldn't be more wrong. And not just wrong, but twisted. Greed doesn't create innovation. Creativity creates innovation. You sound like Gordon Gecko.

What's next? I can just see it, like some kind of SNL skit. Lust is good. Lust allows our species to proliferate. Gluttony is good. Gluttony helps us properly set a value on food. Sloth is good. It allows us to set a value on the importance of rest. Wrath is good. It just means you have some passion. Envy is good. It makes you feel better when you have driven yourself through greed to attain something that other people resent you for. Could there be a better feeling? How about pride? If you don't like it, go to Cuba. :rofl:

the innovation created pre-patent law was MINISCULE compared to the innovation created post-patent law. are we to assume that we genetically became more creative after patent laws were introduced?

greed creates innovation, undeniable fact. the very idea of capitalism is profit, which is greed. all I can assume is that you are against capitalism, and are some kind of communist? I don't know, its hard to imagine personally how an intelligent human being could come to the conclusion that greed is bad when it has literally made the most prosperity in the history of humanity.

[yavoon]

Gotta love the neo-darwinists.

wth is a neo-darwinist. I'm a CAPITALIST, you diddling crazies need to come out into the sunshine, capitalism is based on greed.

[alkemical]

the innovation created pre-patent law was MINISCULE compared to the innovation created post-patent law. are we to assume that we genetically became more creative after patent laws were introduced?

greed creates innovation, undeniable fact. the very idea of capitalism is profit, which is greed. all I can assume is that you are against capitalism, and are some kind of communist? I don't know, its hard to imagine personally how an intelligent human being could come to the conclusion that greed is bad when it has literally made the most prosperity in the history of humanity.

Greed allowed the holocaust, greed allows war-lords running diamond minds, greed puts profits over the value of life. In your mentality, i can kill you and it's ok, as long as i'm greedy enough to do it.

[TheDave]

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/michaeldouglaswallstreetcolor.JPG

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.
Greed is right.
Greed works.
Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.
And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."

[yavoon]

Greed allowed the holocaust, greed allows war-lords running diamond minds, greed puts profits over the value of life. In your mentality, i can kill you and it's ok, as long as i'm greedy enough to do it.

no, greed obviously needs regulation. greed can not create the amazing value if it is allowed to be channeled into massive corruption or graft. but w/ a good regulatory system it is the most powerful force in human history, AND IT HAS CREATED THE MOST PROSPERITY EVER. get it? greed HAS ALREADY CREATED THE MOST PROSPEROUS TIME IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY. I just want that to sink into you capitalist haters.

[Bob]

Wow! Just wow. You are one twisted ****. What's that; The new politics of sociopathism?

Not sure I agree with Yavoon on this either -- self-interest is Good, because it motivates, and makes one more industrious -- but “greed” indicates that one has allowed the good principle of industry to take over and stamp out compassion. Most good true principles taken to an extreme become falsehood.

[yavoon]

Not sure I agree with Yavoon on this either -- self-interest is Good, because it motivates, and makes one more industrious -- but “greed” indicates that one has allowed the good principle of industry to take over and stamp out compassion. Most good true principles taken to an extreme become falsehood.

semantics. capitalism is based on profit, PROFIT IS GREED. it doesn't mean you are an inhuman killer or robot. it just means you are USING GREED TO CREATE VALUE.

[alkemical]

no, greed obviously needs regulation. greed can not create the amazing value if it is allowed to be channeled into massive corruption or graft. but w/ a good regulatory system it is the most powerful force in human history, AND IT HAS CREATED THE MOST PROSPERITY EVER. get it? greed HAS ALREADY CREATED THE MOST PROSPEROUS TIME IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY. I just want that to sink into you capitalist haters.

I'd like to know how i'm a capitalist hater since i'm starting up a magazine and i have a record label? Oh way, i forgot - you just talk ****!

[yavoon]

I'd like to know how i'm a capitalist hater since i'm starting up a magazine and i have a record label? Oh way, i forgot - you just talk ****!

I'm not a mind reader clav. ppl who rail against greed, being that greed is the basis of capitalism I assume(and rightly so) hate capitalism.

I will be sure in the future to read ur mind though.

[alkemical]

no, greed obviously needs regulation. greed can not create the amazing value if it is allowed to be channeled into massive corruption or graft. but w/ a good regulatory system it is the most powerful force in human history, AND IT HAS CREATED THE MOST PROSPERITY EVER. get it? greed HAS ALREADY CREATED THE MOST PROSPEROUS TIME IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY. I just want that to sink into you capitalist haters.

You can't REGULATE greed. That goes against your whole mantra of how great greed is. It's a dichotomy.

[alkemical]

I'm not a mind reader clav. ppl who rail against greed, being that greed is the basis of capitalism I assume(and rightly so) hate capitalism.

I will be sure in the future to read ur mind though.

Oh i don't hate capitalism, i hate pigs. Where there never is enough.

PS - me creating my magazine has nothing to do with making money, that's just a bonus if it happens.

[yavoon]

You can't REGULATE greed. That goes against your whole mantra of how great greed is. It's a dichotomy.

umm no it doesn't? its not a dichotomy. and u MOST CERTAINLY CAN regulate greed. so basically I'm saying your post is 100% wrong. think about it a little though? you can't regulate greed? thats absurd.

[yavoon]

Oh i don't hate capitalism, i hate pigs. Where there never is enough.

PS - me creating my magazine has nothing to do with making money, that's just a bonus if it happens.

ahhh the unsightly capitalism. everyone should be allowed to make money, just not an unsightly amount. hahahahahahaha. greed IS capitalism, it is what the ENTIRE SYSTEM is built on.

[AlphaOmega]

HotRod and I see things "eye-to-eye" ;D

[Rohirrim]

The funny thing is that if you ask what the model of success in a capitalist system is based on, it's not greed, it's cooperation. Read Napoleon Hill. Carnegie. Anthony Robbins. What do all the great entrepeneurs have in common? They built successful networks of people who had the same dream. Not only that. Few of them (maybe Trump) will cite greed as their motivating factor. Maybe many of them would cite (if honest) ego. They won't say, "I just wanted to grab all that I could for myself." They always say things like, "I was excited to be on the forward edge of technology and I wanted to create the future" or "I wanted to build the greatest bridge on Earth" or "I wanted to make the best automobile in the world." To the majority of these people, the money was secondary.

[alkemical]

umm no it doesn't? its not a dichotomy. and u MOST CERTAINLY CAN regulate greed. so basically I'm saying your post is 100% wrong. think about it a little though? you can't regulate greed? thats absurd.

You can't regulate greed any more than you can any other human drive.

[alkemical]

ahhh the unsightly capitalism. everyone should be allowed to make money, just not an unsightly amount. hahahahahahaha. greed IS capitalism, it is what the ENTIRE SYSTEM is built on.

Wait, you just said it needed regulated. See, thanks again for proving your hypocrisy!

[yavoon]

You can't regulate greed any more than you can any other human drive.

you most certainly can. infact we already have MASSIVE regulations on what ambitious ppl can do to fulfill their dreams. tax laws, labor laws, trade laws, export laws, import laws, criminal laws.

[yavoon]

Wait, you just said it needed regulated. See, thanks again for proving your hypocrisy!

you're blabbering incoherent idiocy is difficult to respond to.

[alkemical]

The funny thing is that if you ask what the model of success in a capitalist system is based on, it's not greed, it's cooperation. Read Napoleon Hill. Carnegie. Anthony Robbins. What do all the great entrepeneurs have in common? They built successful networks of people who had the same dream. Not only that. Few of them (maybe Trump) will cite greed as their motivating factor. Maybe many of them would cite (if honest) ego. They won't say, "I just wanted to grab all that I could for myself." They always say things like, "I was excited to be on the forward edge of technology and I wanted to create the future" or "I wanted to build the greatest bridge on Earth" or "I wanted to make the best automobile in the world." To the majority of these people, the money was secondary.

It's kinda like a few of the bands i'm in. The ones i'm in that are the most successful are the ones where we just LOVE playing music. The two that i play in that are IMO the worst - are the ones where the other guys want to be rockstars and make money....

[alkemical]

you're blabbering incoherent idiocy is difficult to respond to.

Heh, try reading your posts.

[alkemical]

you most certainly can. infact we already have MASSIVE regulations on what ambitious ppl can do to fulfill their dreams. tax laws, labor laws, trade laws, export laws, import laws, criminal laws.

Well now you are introducing regulation by "The State", which goes against your free-market wet dreams. Again, dichotomy.

[yavoon]

The funny thing is that if you ask what the model of success in a capitalist system is based on, it's not greed, it's cooperation. Read Napoleon Hill. Carnegie. Anthony Robbins. What do all the great entrepeneurs have in common? They built successful networks of people who had the same dream. Not only that. Few of them (maybe Trump) will cite greed as their motivating factor. Maybe many of them would cite (if honest) ego. They won't say, "I just wanted to grab all that I could for myself." They always say things like, "I was excited to be on the forward edge of technology and I wanted to create the future" or "I wanted to build the greatest bridge on Earth" or "I wanted to make the best automobile in the world." To the majority of these people, the money was secondary.

power is just a different form of greed. and OBVIOUSLY greed leads to human cooperation, how could it not? it doesn't change the basis of capitalism. and carnegie for all his high falutin talk sure took every opportunity to squeeze profit. same with rockefeller. if all those great american industrialists cared so little for money then why did they acquire such ungodly sums of it? surely they could have paid their workers more, or given it away during their lifetimes.

lying in an interview doesn't change the nature of capitalism.

[yavoon]

Well now you are introducing regulation by "The State", which goes against your free-market wet dreams. Again, dichotomy.

not a dichotomy. you maybe think I am some ron paulian free marketeer, I am not. that being said, GREED IS STILL THE BASIS OF CAPITALISM. regulation or no regulation.

and plz stop using words like dichotomy/hypocrisy when they aren't there. it makes you sound like a moron.

[alkemical]

not a dichotomy. you maybe think I am some ron paulian free marketeer, I am not. that being said, GREED IS STILL THE BASIS OF CAPITALISM. regulation or no regulation.

and plz stop using words like dichotomy/hypocrisy when they aren't there. it makes you sound like a moron.

You look cute with a dunce cap on!

"You ppl hate capitalism, you commies, but wait we need regulation!"

LOL the HYPOCRISY of it all.

[yavoon]

You look cute with a dunce cap on!

yes because mr idiot here thinks if u have labor laws somehow that negates the driving force of capitalism. unbounded idiocy lurks between your ears.

[yavoon]

You look cute with a dunce cap on!

"You ppl hate capitalism, you commies, but wait we need regulation!"

LOL the HYPOCRISY of it all.

capitalism has always been regulated. there is nothing wrong or contradictory about it. and you merely prove to the world you are an idiot if you say so.

[alkemical]

capitalism has always been regulated. there is nothing wrong or contradictory about it. and you merely prove to the world you are an idiot if you say so.

No, i'm actually just mocking you. Whenever anyone here mentions regulations or limiting commerce, you automatically jump on your "america & capitialist h8ters" rant. So if you find the parody of you to be silly, just consider the source material i get to use. :)

[yavoon]

No, i'm actually just mocking you. Whenever anyone here mentions regulations or limiting commerce, you automatically jump on your "america & capitialist h8ters" rant. So if you find the parody of you to be silly, just consider the source material i get to use. :)

no I don't. god you're a ****ing moron. you basically say something completely retarded, ie regulation negates capitalism. then you say that you were SECRETLY mocking me. when infact I have always believed in some regulation, and indeed capitalism has always had regulation.

you are simply too stupid for words clav. go back to the spiritual nonsense where no1 can ever be right or wrong, and leave real issues to the big boys.

[alkemical]

no I don't. god you're a ****ing moron. you basically say something completely retarded, ie regulation negates capitalism. then you say that you were SECRETLY mocking me. when infact I have always believed in some regulation, and indeed capitalism has always had regulation.

you are simply too stupid for words clav. go back to the spiritual nonsense where no1 can ever be right or wrong, and leave real issues to the big boys.

LOL it seems someone has penis envy too!

[Rohirrim]

power is just a different form of greed. and OBVIOUSLY greed leads to human cooperation, how could it not? it doesn't change the basis of capitalism. and carnegie for all his high falutin talk sure took every opportunity to squeeze profit. same with rockefeller. if all those great american industrialists cared so little for money then why did they acquire such ungodly sums of it? surely they could have paid their workers more, or given it away during their lifetimes.

lying in an interview doesn't change the nature of capitalism.

I think people change. When they are starting out, they are driven by a dream. Then some people, after they acquire great wealth, become consumed by greed. Then, they change from an enterepreneur into a miser, trying desperately to hold on to every shekel they can get their hands on. That's when they start saying things like, "We must abolish the death tax! We must abolish the capital gains tax! For the good of all Americans!" ;D

[baja]

Wow! Just wow. You are one twisted ****. What's that; The new politics of sociopathism?

I'm surprised you haven't you figured it out yet Ro. Donald Rumsfeld is the poster known as yavoon.

[baja]

its the noticing of reality. post wwII, the era of increasing global capitalism is the most prosperous time in the history of all humanity. human beings are raised up by greed, because greed creates innovation, greed creates advancement, greed creates value. greed creates ambition, the cornerstone of growth. growth is why greed/profit based economies like america's stomp the crap outta ****ty zero sum economies.

http://www.wheaton.edu/bgc/archives/docs/bg-charlotte/0927-1.htm

[baja]

the innovation created pre-patent law was MINISCULE compared to the innovation created post-patent law. are we to assume that we genetically became more creative after patent laws were introduced?

greed creates innovation, undeniable fact. the very idea of capitalism is profit, which is greed. all I can assume is that you are against capitalism, and are some kind of communist? I don't know, its hard to imagine personally how an intelligent human being could come to the conclusion that greed is bad when it has literally made the most prosperity in the history of humanity.
The desire to achieve is not the same as greed.

You sir are clearly no word smith.

[RaiderH8r]

The desire to achieve is not the same as greed.

You sir are clearly no word smith.

I think, perhaps, this is what he may have been going for:

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA. Thank you very much."

[TailgateNut]

LOL it seems someone has penis envy too!


Damn. I've had Baboon on Ignore, but sometime I get stuck reading his posts due to others quoting him. It looks like you got under his skin. He's so pisssed he's spelling complete words like "You", and "are" instead of his usual childlike "U" and "R".

Good job! Keep working on him until he implodes.

Call him a Muslim, and see what happens.ROFL!

[alkemical]

Do you know how hard it is to mock someone that is that easy of a mark? Sometimes i almost feel guilty.

[The Lone Bolt]

Well he may be more conservative than me but W*GS strikes me as one level-headed dude. I'd say he's the closest to me.






(Runs and dives for cover)

[Breaker]

power is just a different form of greed. and OBVIOUSLY greed leads to human cooperation, how could it not? it doesn't change the basis of capitalism. and carnegie for all his high falutin talk sure took every opportunity to squeeze profit. same with rockefeller. if all those great american industrialists cared so little for money then why did they acquire such ungodly sums of it? surely they could have paid their workers more, or given it away during their lifetimes.

lying in an interview doesn't change the nature of capitalism.

Power is a form of greed .. you have got to be kidding me. Mother Theresa, the Pope, MLK, Ghandi all people who had great power in their own ways yet I would not exactly classify greed as the motivating factor for these people would you?

[alkemical]

Well he may be more conservative than me but W*GS strikes me as one level-headed dude. I'd say he's the closest to me.






(Runs and dives for cover)

Well considering the earth is round..... ;)

[Breaker]

Well he may be more conservative than me but W*GS strikes me as one level-headed dude. I'd say he's the closest to me.






(Runs and dives for cover)

Shhhhhh, don't say it to loud :wave:

[baja]

Well he may be more conservative than me but W*GS strikes me as one level-headed dude. I'd say he's the closest to me.






(Runs and dives for cover)

Oh ya, ask him what he thinks about Invesco Field.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Heh, try reading your posts.

Ha!

It's hard to take him seriously when he writes like a 16 year-old on a Myspace page.

[Taco John]

Ya huh I no bout CAPitalsm ppl. I M N economical G-nus

[Taco John]

and u MOST CERTAINLY CAN regulate greed.



Don't be stupid. No you can't. Human emotions cannot be regulated - further, federal government has no mandate to even try.

[baja]

Even if you could who would do it? The Bush administration? Congress?

[Florida_Bronco]

TJ, why do you even bother arguing with Yavoon?

[Taco John]

TJ, why do you even bother arguing with Yavoon?


B-cuz itz N EZ way 2 get teh reps... ;)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ya huh I no bout CAPitalsm ppl. I M N economical G-nus

:giggle:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Don't be stupid. No you can't. Human emotions cannot be regulated - further, federal government has no mandate to even try.Greed is most certainly regulated.

[Spider]

Greed is most certainly regulated.

you can be as greedy as you want ...... meeting the goals of your greed is a different matter ........Just like Lust , anger , hate , Love ......

[yavoon]

Don't be stupid. No you can't. Human emotions cannot be regulated - further, federal government has no mandate to even try.

human emotions can not be regulated? are we just talking nonsensical garbage now? look when u have REGULATION, ppl who are ambitious have to follow that regulation. I can't believe this discussion is so moronic that I have to explain these things.

lets just use something I mentioned earlier, patent laws. that is GOVERNMENT REGULATION. the government has you apply for patents that grant you intellectual property rights and will then defend those rights for you. this gives incentive(greed-talk here) for ppl to create things that can be patented and then sell them(more evil greed-talk). the effect of patent law and the protection of intellectual property is ENORMOUS. and is yet another example government regulation impacting the use of ppl's ambition/greed/whatever.

can we stop this crazy idiocy now?

[yavoon]

I think people change. When they are starting out, they are driven by a dream. Then some people, after they acquire great wealth, become consumed by greed. Then, they change from an enterepreneur into a miser, trying desperately to hold on to every shekel they can get their hands on. That's when they start saying things like, "We must abolish the death tax! We must abolish the capital gains tax! For the good of all Americans!" ;D

ambition for dreams is just a different form of greed. and I've always been split on the inheritance tax, on one hand its an absurd form of double taxation, ~50% tax the first time, then 50% again? I mean seriously, how much can the government take w/o blushing? on the other hand I am open to arguments about the value of the inheritance tax on economic growth, and the dynamism of the economy.

[yavoon]

The desire to achieve is not the same as greed.

You sir are clearly no word smith.

of course it is. desire for money, desire for achievement, desire for fame, desire for power. we can argue definitions all you want, but its all aiming in the same direction.

[yavoon]

Do you know how hard it is to mock someone that is that easy of a mark? Sometimes i almost feel guilty.

you pretend its mocking. but everyone sees the incessantly moronic things you say, "greed can not be regulated." I'm shocked you are literate.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'm shocked you are literate.

Hilarious!

Ironic post of the month!

[Bronco Bob]

This message is hidden because yavoon is on your ignore list (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/profile.php?do=editlist)..

[alkemical]

Hilarious!

Ironic post of the month!

LOL NO ****, eh! LOL

[baja]

you pretend its mocking. <b>but everyone sees the </b>incessantly moronic things you say, "greed can not be regulated." I'm shocked you are literate.

Given your level of popularity here you might want to refrain from statements like "Everybody here sees...."

I doubt you are qualified to speak of anyone here. Not me atleast.

[alkemical]

you pretend its mocking. but everyone sees the incessantly moronic things you say, "greed can not be regulated." I'm shocked you are literate.

Speaking of literacy, i've exposed you again in your lack of understanding what words mean. DESIRE and GREED are two close, but they aren't the same things.. DESIRE is a craving or wanting. GREED is an excessive form of desire.

Here:

http://www.dictionary.com

Look them both up, it might help you in the future to make intelligent discussions.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Given your level of popularity here you might want to refrain from statements like "Everybody here sees...."

I doubt you are qualified to speak of anyone here. Not me atleast.

Maybe when he says "everyone" he's talking about errand and himself. ;)

[Taco John]

human emotions can not be regulated? are we just talking nonsensical garbage now? look when u have REGULATION, ppl who are ambitious have to follow that regulation. I can't believe this discussion is so moronic that I have to explain these things.

lets just use something I mentioned earlier, patent laws. that is GOVERNMENT REGULATION. the government has you apply for patents that grant you intellectual property rights and will then defend those rights for you. this gives incentive(greed-talk here) for ppl to create things that can be patented and then sell them(more evil greed-talk). the effect of patent law and the protection of intellectual property is ENORMOUS. and is yet another example government regulation impacting the use of ppl's ambition/greed/whatever.

can we stop this crazy idiocy now?



Greed cannot be regulated. It's a human emotion. Your example is not relevant. You're talking about patent laws, not greed. Don't be stupid.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Greed cannot be regulated. It's a human emotion. Your example is not relevant. You're talking about patent laws, not greed. Don't be stupid.Again, you are completely mistaken. Probably because you don't actually understand the definition of "greed".

Just one example...
Financial institutions, corporations, individuals can and do desire to obtain more wealth than they actually need or may be entitled to but are regulated by government on how much they actually can charge other people (interest, penalties, fees, etc...) when attempting to "fleece" the other guy.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Again, you are completely mistaken. Probably because you don't actually understand the definition of "greed".

Just one example...
Financial institutions, corporations, individuals can and do desire to obtain more wealth than they actually need or may be entitled to but are regulated by government on how much they actually can charge other people (interest, penalties, fees, etc...) when attempting to "fleece" the other guy.

Bingo.

And right-wing straw man artists (like W*GS) try to equate said regulation with "socialism" or a "nanny state."

[Taco John]

Again, you are completely mistaken. Probably because you don't actually understand the definition of "greed".

Just one example...
Financial institutions, corporations, individuals can and do desire to obtain more wealth than they actually need or may be entitled to but are regulated by government on how much they actually can charge other people (interest, penalties, fees, etc...) when attempting to "fleece" the other guy.




Yeah, that's a great example of regulating prices. But the people have the same amount of greed in them as they had before these market forces were regulated. They'll just find a way to cut costs in order to beat the regulation and make the same amount of money that they wanted to make in the first place. Most likely, they'll cut jobs here and outsource them.

Human emotions cannot be regulated by anyone except the individual.

I understand the definition of "Greed" just fine. You apparently are the one in need of a dictionary.

[Taco John]

Bingo.

And right-wing straw man artists (like W*GS) try to equate said regulation with "socialism" or a "nanny state."



For what it's worth, the kind of regulation that was just described is most certainly socialistic... Leaning more towards communist. When you take away the free market forces of pricing, it leaves the economic realm of "free market" and enters the economic realm of the "command market."

Both socialism and communism rely on command markets as their economic base. This isn't a straw man. It's just facts.

[Bronco Bob]

For what it's worth, the kind of regulation that was just described is most certainly socialistic... Leaning more towards communist. When you take away the free market forces of pricing, it leaves the economic realm of "free market" and enters the economic realm of the "command market."

Both socialism and communism rely on command markets as their economic base. This isn't a straw man. It's just facts.

By your definition Teddy Roosevelt was a communist because of his trust busting crusade.

Roosevelt firmly believed: "The Government must in increasing degree supervise and regulate the workings of the railways engaged in interstate commerce." Inaction was a danger, he argued: "Such increased supervision is the only alternative to an increase of the present evils on the one hand or a still more radical policy on the other."

His biggest success was passage of the Hepburn Act of 1906, the provisions of which were to be regulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC). The most important provision of the Act gave the ICC the power to replace existing rates with "just-and-reasonable" maximum rates, with the ICC to define what was just and reasonable. Anti-rebate provisions were toughened, free passes were outlawed, and the penalties for violation were increased. Finally, the ICC gained the power to prescribe a uniform system of accounting, require standardized reports, and inspect railroad accounts. The Act made ICC orders binding; that is, the railroads had to either obey or contest the ICC orders in federal court.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

For what it's worth, the kind of regulation that was just described is most certainly socialistic... Leaning more towards communist. When you take away the free market forces of pricing, it leaves the economic realm of "free market" and enters the economic realm of the "command market."

Both socialism and communism rely on command markets as their economic base. This isn't a straw man. It's just facts.

But socialism and liberalism are two fundamentally different political philosophies.

Therein lies the straw man.

[Taco John]

But socialism and liberalism are two fundamentally different political philosophies.

Therein lies the straw man.



That much I agree with. True liberalism holds that individual liberty is the most important political goal. Progressivism, not so much... Progressivism is very much a pathway to socialsim -- or what I personally would refer to as "Democratic Socialism."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

By your definition Teddy Roosevelt was a communist because of his trust busting crusade.


That's a great example of the straw man (sorry baja) that's so pervasive in right-wing propaganda today.

Anyone who wants government to act to prevent monopolies and all-out socioeconomic Darwinism is a "socialist" or a "commie."

(Talk about your 'black-or-white' thinking.)

Either these people learned nothing from the Hoover era, or they are speaking for those who benefit from Hoover's kind of policy.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Progressivism, not so much... Progressivism is very much a pathway to socialsim -- or what I personally would refer to as "Democratic Socialism."

I don't hear progressives arguing that the means of production should be owned by the state.

[Taco John]

By your definition Teddy Roosevelt was a communist because of his trust busting crusade.

Roosevelt firmly believed: "The Government must in increasing degree supervise and regulate the workings of the railways engaged in interstate commerce." Inaction was a danger, he argued: "Such increased supervision is the only alternative to an increase of the present evils on the one hand or a still more radical policy on the other."

His biggest success was passage of the Hepburn Act of 1906, the provisions of which were to be regulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC). The most important provision of the Act gave the ICC the power to replace existing rates with "just-and-reasonable" maximum rates, with the ICC to define what was just and reasonable. Anti-rebate provisions were toughened, free passes were outlawed, and the penalties for violation were increased. Finally, the ICC gained the power to prescribe a uniform system of accounting, require standardized reports, and inspect railroad accounts. The Act made ICC orders binding; that is, the railroads had to either obey or contest the ICC orders in federal court.




I wouldn't consider Teddy Roosevelt a communist. He probably closer to a socialist though (not quite though) - or a "progressive" if you'd rather. He believed in Hamiltonian strong, centralized government. He was an imperialist. He wanted as much power in Washington as possible. He was what we would call now, a neo-con. He talked out of both sides of his mouth. His so called "national greatness conservativism" is yesterday's "compassionate conservativism." Teddy Roosevelt talked about a "limited but energetic government." What a bunch of crapola. I think the guy was flat out nuts. I trust Mark Twain's judgement that Roosevelt was "clearly insane."

Roosevelt was the first president who believed that the US should act as the world's polceman. This is a huge reason why the Neo-Con royalty Irving Kristol and his son Wet Daiper Kristol love the guy. Roosevelt was a flat out warmonger, and ironically won a Nobel Peace prize for his theory on "the menace of peace."

As far as the Hepburn act goes, a lot of scholars credit this terrible legislation as a reason why Railroads have failed in America, where they are still vital parts of the economy and methods of long range travel in other countries. I guess what's bad for the railroads ended up being a boon for the trucking industry. But it could be logically argued that Roosevelt's market intervention is why our nation relies so heavily on fossil fuels today.

It just goes to show you that the effects of a bad president can be vast and far reaching. We owe our children a thousand apologies for the unseen damage that Bush's policies are sure to bring.

[Taco John]

I don't hear progressives arguing that the means of production should be owned by the state.


That's why they're progressives and not communists. But it's only a hop, skip, and a jump away from that.

[Taco John]

Also, I should add that "trust busting" was nothing more than the Halliburton government reach around of the time. It took the most comeptitive businesses and punished them in order to allow the least efficient and thus least competitive players in the industry have "their share" of the pie (their inefficiencies were driving them out of business). It was a scam to help the lobbyists of these weaker competing companies. In the end though, the consumer is the one that got hurt with worse services at inflated prices.

[Taco John]

Ah! John McCain would be a great comparison... He could very well be the Teddy Roosevelt of our time.

[Bronco Bob]

TJ, I'll make you a wager. Neither John McCain nor Ron Paul ever gets their heads on Mount Rushmore.

[Taco John]

All the adulation in the world isn't going to reverse the decades of damage that Roosevelt's policies wrought on this nation. It's a nice looking carving, but I don't have too much respect for the patron saint of neoconservativism.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

That's why they're progressives and not communists. But it's only a hop, skip, and a jump away from that.

How so?

Where is the evidence (historical or otherwise?)

[Cito Pelon]

Maybe that's what you do now but I remember strong complaining posts and appeals to TJ when someone slammed your religious beliefs, rightfully so IMO (I never did that, in fact this Monday I am going to a Kingdom Hall meeting by invitation because I am interested in their 'End Times' strategies).

All of my family lives in the states and I go to the states about once a month I usually spend summers there too although in recent years I have been traveling abroad.

You are welcome my fellow citizen.

Do you pay any taxes in the USA?

[Cito Pelon]

Surprisingly enough most of the club hookers here are American women, real pretty or so I'm told.

I wonder does that make them cowards who gave up their right to be concerned about the happenings in the USA? ;D

You're comparing yourself to whores? OK, I guess it's a fair comparison.

[Spider]

All the adulation in the world isn't going to reverse the decades of damage that Roosevelt's policies wrought on this nation. It's a nice looking carving, but I don't have too much respect for the patron saint of neoconservativism.

If you are refering to FDR , you are letting Ron Pauls bull**** go right to your head ......Damage ? you dont know what in the hell you are babbling about ...... you grew up safe and secure , and if it wasnt for Roosevelt so called damage , you would be living in a 3 rd world country ...... Here is some homework for you look up how many people were able to feed their families cause of the new deal , the TVA and the SEC act ..... Ron Paul should know better then to fill you kids up with Bull**** .....very very irresponsible

[baja]

You're comparing yourself to whores? OK, I guess it's a fair comparison.

Gee you still here, I thought you caught a flight to Mars.

[Taco John]

If you are refering to FDR , you are letting Ron Pauls bull**** go right to your head ......Damage ? you dont know what in the hell you are babbling about ...... you grew up safe and secure , and if it wasnt for Roosevelt so called damage , you would be living in a 3 rd world country ...... Here is some homework for you look up how many people were able to feed their families cause of the new deal , the TVA and the SEC act ..... Ron Paul should know better then to fill you kids up with Bull**** .....very very irresponsible


FDR turned the US into a welfare state. Thanks Frank.

But I wasn't talking about him. If you had been reading, you'd have noted that we were discussing Teddy.

[Taco John]

How so?

Where is the evidence (historical or otherwise?)



What more ideological evidence do you need? Just examine the philosophies of Socialism and Progressivism... What do you think progressivism is "progressing" towards?

[W*GS]

Anyone who wants government to act to prevent monopolies and all-out socioeconomic Darwinism is a "socialist" or a "commie."

The Left's concern about monopolies is hypocritical; they want market "monopolies" replaced with (genuine) State-run monopolies. They seem to think that bureaucrats and politicians are intrinsically more moral than producers and consumers. The lesson of the fall of the USSR still hasn't sunk in to them.

Likewise, their prattling about "socioeconomic Darwinism" betrays their zero-sum dogma regarding production and wealth; the size of the pie is rigidly fixed, and every crumb more Joe gets means Jane has less.

In short, the Left's analysis of economics disintegrates with the most cursory examination - why so many still believe in that particular faith is more an exercise in psychology than it is in politics or economics.

[Spider]

FDR turned the US into a welfare state. Thanks Frank. you need to thank him .....

But I wasn't talking about him. If you had been reading, you'd have noted that we were discussing Teddy.
ok my bad ......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What more ideological evidence do you need?

The empirical/historical kind.

BTW, LMAO @ W*GS rant about "state-run monopolies."

Don't tell me you don't understand the difference between the way the CEO of a large corporation attains his position and weilds power vs. the way a politician does the same? (A politician other than Dim Son, that is.)

[W*GS]

Don't tell me you don't understand the difference between the way the CEO of a large corporation attains his position and weilds power vs. the way a politician does the same? (A politician other than Dim Son, that is.)

How many CEOs have lasted as long as Strom Thurmond did or Robert Byrd has?

[Taco John]

The empirical/historical kind.



Progressivism is under 100 years old. We're watching it unfold in real time.

But there is plenty of ideologicall correlations if you're willing to examine them. It's not a reach at all. Like I say, what to you think progressivism is "progressing" towards? It's just an inroad into "Democratic Socialism."

We can thank dim-sighted presidents like Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt for this sad state of affairs. I would say they were asleep at the switch, except that both seemed eager to turn this great nation into Welfare/Warfare states. But I'd put Woodrow Wilson at the top of the cake as the worst president in history, because he was absolutely asleep at the switch. His gullibility damaged America nearly beyond repair and provided the muscle that enabled the Welfare/Warfare state to exist: the Federal Reserve.

Willson was even worse than Bush, but who knows - history may put Bush at the top of that list. We've lost a lot of liberty, and if history has proven one thing, it's that the forces that take advantage of this kind of stuff put some distance between the original enabler and the eventual disaster. The Great Depression didn't come until well after Wilson knocked over the first dominoe. I dread what comes from the dominoes that Bush is knocking down now.

[Cito Pelon]

Progressivism is under 100 years old. We're watching it unfold in real time.

But there is plenty of ideologicall correlations if you're willing to examine them. It's not a reach at all. Like I say, what to you think progressivism is "progressing" towards? It's just an inroad into "Democratic Socialism."

We can thank dim-sighted presidents like Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt for this sad state of affairs. I would say they were asleep at the switch, except that both seemed eager to turn this great nation into Welfare/Warfare states. But I'd put Woodrow Wilson at the top of the cake as the worst president in history, because he was absolutely asleep at the switch. His gullibility damaged America nearly beyond repair and provided the muscle that enabled the Welfare/Warfare state to exist: the Federal Reserve.

Willson was even worse than Bush, but who knows - history may put Bush at the top of that list. We've lost a lot of liberty, and if history has proven one thing, it's that the forces that take advantage of this kind of stuff put some distance between the original enabler and the eventual disaster. The Great Depression didn't come until well after Wilson knocked over the first dominoe. I dread what comes from the dominoes that Bush is knocking down now.

You've made a circle back to "Classic Liberalism" I think. Adam Smith and "The Wealth of Nations". It's interesting that Classic Liberalism has now become Modern Conservatism, the idea of free markets, no onerous taxation.

The trouble with Classic Liberalism/Modern Conservatism is it still allows the most exceptional people to create their own fiefs, but on a grander scale. The example can't be more clear than in the post-Civil War USA. Classic Liberalism was the economic model and what resulted was The Trusts and their hand-picked political cronies. Teddy R and the Progressives busted them up and laid the foundation for "one person, one vote". Don't forget that any woman period couldn't vote until 1923.

I think you're pissed off about a lot of things, and rightfully so, but to turn back the clock to the year 1800, I don't think that's the way to go.

[TDmvp]

If you are refering to FDR , you are letting Ron Pauls bull**** go right to your head ......Damage ? you dont know what in the hell you are babbling about ...... you grew up safe and secure , and if it wasnt for Roosevelt so called damage , you would be living in a 3 rd world country ...... Here is some homework for you look up how many people were able to feed their families cause of the new deal , the TVA and the SEC act ..... Ron Paul should know better then to fill you kids up with Bull**** .....very very irresponsible

Mccain is a hell of a man ... from his service time , being held captive , to the uss forrestal , just not sure he is the leader of men FDR was ... FDR great man at the right time ... and i know alot of old people who think he did pretty well , and ill go with that ...

good stuff spider

[Rohirrim]

Progressivism is under 100 years old. We're watching it unfold in real time.

But there is plenty of ideologicall correlations if you're willing to examine them. It's not a reach at all. Like I say, what to you think progressivism is "progressing" towards? It's just an inroad into "Democratic Socialism."

We can thank dim-sighted presidents like Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt for this sad state of affairs. I would say they were asleep at the switch, except that both seemed eager to turn this great nation into Welfare/Warfare states. But I'd put Woodrow Wilson at the top of the cake as the worst president in history, because he was absolutely asleep at the switch. His gullibility damaged America nearly beyond repair and provided the muscle that enabled the Welfare/Warfare state to exist: the Federal Reserve.

Willson was even worse than Bush, but who knows - history may put Bush at the top of that list. We've lost a lot of liberty, and if history has proven one thing, it's that the forces that take advantage of this kind of stuff put some distance between the original enabler and the eventual disaster. The Great Depression didn't come until well after Wilson knocked over the first dominoe. I dread what comes from the dominoes that Bush is knocking down now.

You make it sound as if these presidents were simply exercising their socialist prerogatives in a vacuum. They weren't. They were responding to the needs of the American people who had been screwed to the wall by a bunch of greedy bastards who had the economic power to impose their interests upon the economy as a whole, for good or bad. We're still in the same fix. How do we control the power of those who are driven by unmitigated greed while still retaining free markets without creating an authoritarian government? The free marketers just say, "Let the market go and everything will balance out." No. That will simply allow the creation of a plutocracy. Progressives/socialists say, "Allow the government to control the markets for the benefit of the greater good." No. That just shifts the power to government hands and leads to authoritarianism.

It seems to me we're always on a swing between the two extremes. Some human beings cannot control their thirst for power and/or wealth. They represent the erosive force that works against any kind of good government mankind can come up with, and they always have. If we bend too far in one direction to control their effect we give too much power to government. If we do nothing, they overwhelm the government. It's a constant struggle, and I've never seen any philosophy of government that is so perfect that it cures it.

[Bronco Bob]

How many CEOs have lasted as long as Strom Thurmond did or Robert Byrd has?

Have you tried Googling it to find out? You have a bad habit of being
too lazy to look up things yourself. What's more when someone
does go through the trouble of looking up an answer to your
question you just ignore it or change the subject.

[baja]

Have you tried Googling it to find out? You have a bad habit of being
too lazy to look up things yourself. What's more when someone
does go through the trouble of looking up an answer to your
question you just ignore it or change the subject.

I noticed that too, irritating isn't it?