Canada puts USA on list of states that torture prisoners

[Bronco Bob]

Welcome to Iran and Syria's little club.


The United States has been listed as a country where prisoners are at risk of
torture in a training document produced by the Canadian foreign ministry.

It also classifies some US interrogation techniques as torture.

The manual - part of a training course on torture awareness for diplomats -
also includes Israel, China, Iran and Afghanistan on its watch list.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7195276.stm

[Bronco Jamus]

Pehaps they have reading posts in this forum.

[Bronco Bob]

Pehaps they have reading posts in this forum.

So you don't think the US torturing Canadian citizens such as Maher Arar
had anything to do with it?

[spdirty]

"The manual lists US interrogation techniques such as forced nudity, isolation, sleep deprivation and the blindfolding of prisoners under "definition of torture".



Yikes! :Whaaaa!:

[epicSocialism4tw]

Overdrama.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"The manual lists US interrogation techniques such as forced nudity, isolation, sleep deprivation and the blindfolding of prisoners under "definition of torture".

Yikes! :Whaaaa!:

So does this mean that when they waterboard you we can disregard any complaints you might lodge?

:D

[spdirty]

So does this mean that when they waterboard you we can disregard any complaints you might lodge?

:D

will waterboarding kill me? Or take a leg, or an arm, or a finger?Or will it just scare me?

Oh yeah, I might get a heart attack from all the excitement.

[Rigs11]

will waterboarding kill me? Or take a leg, or an arm, or a finger?Or will it just scare me?

Oh yeah, I might get a heart attack from all the excitement.

we have a volunteer. How about you test out your theory. I believe you can pay blackwater to have this procedure done on you.:thumbs:

[Spider]

will waterboarding kill me? Or take a leg, or an arm, or a finger?Or will it just scare me?

Oh yeah, I might get a heart attack from all the excitement.

i never been waterboarded , but when I was 16 , I was attacked by an old lady armed with noodles ....... I had no idea that was her cart ....

[Bronco Bob]

will waterboarding kill me? Or take a leg, or an arm, or a finger?Or will it just scare me?

Oh yeah, I might get a heart attack from all the excitement.

Maybe we could put you in a brazen bull.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

we have a volunteer. How about you test out your theory. I believe you can pay blackwater to have this procedure done on you.:thumbs:

I'll chip in to cover that tab!

Anybody else? :D

[DBruleU]

Overdrama.

No kidding. This place is now officially the DNC's HQ's.

[alkemical]

I would think that the secret flights and moving people to countries that accept torture would count towards this ranking as well.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

No kidding. This place is now officially the DNC's HQ's.

ROFL!

Riiiiiiiight.

Just keep telling yourself that two thirds of Americans are Democrats, and this forum is just part of a huge liberal conspiracy to discredit Godly, blameless Dubya.

:D

[baja]

Funny thing is there many Ron Paul supporters here and he is republican.

[Bronco Bob]

Funny thing is there many Ron Paul supporters here and he is republican.

The guys polishing Bush's knob aren't Republicans, they are neo-cons who
have hijacked the Republican party.

[El Guapo]

Canada is on my ignore list (see: who gives a **** what they think, no one lives there anyway).

[epicSocialism4tw]

Canada is on my ignore list (see: who gives a **** what they think, no one lives there anyway).

Ha!

It is quite scenic though.

[spdirty]

I wouldnt mind gettin waterboarded

[cutthemdown]

I don't have a problem with forced nudity, humiliation, waterboarding, sleep deprivation any of that. If you think the CIA just now started doing stuff like that you ae crazy. You don't get information from prisoners by being nice to them and giving them a warm bed to sleep in. You give them those things only after they have talked. I could care less about the rights of terrorists and enemy combatants. They are not from a country, they have no army they belong to. Besides we have all seen how they treat our prisoners to a beheading party. If you think these terrorists will respond to interrogation that is nice and polite you are niave in the most extreme. This is war and they ain't kidding about, you can sit around on your computer and be holier then thou but it doesn't change the fact this is the real deal. Americans just don't get that this is war vs real enemies of the USA.

[epicSocialism4tw]

If you think these terrorists will respond to interrogation that is nice and polite you are niave in the most extreme. This is war and they ain't kidding about, you can sit around on your computer and be holier then thou but it doesn't change the fact this is the real deal. Americans just don't get that this is war vs real enemies of the USA.

Some people are just a little too far removed from the real world in their middle-class white suburban castle to understand what the world is like.

These people WILL KILL YOU. DEAD. and they wont feel a bit of remorse about it. In fact, they will think that they have moved closer to heaven. Yes. By killing you, your wife, and your CHILDREN, these monsters will think that they are moving closer to God.

These people arent Americans, do not have American sensibilities (all people are NOT the same), and in fact think that your American sensibilities are evil and make you a weakling ripe for the picking.

[BroncoBuff]

Excellent ... reality and truth should always prevail. I'm wanna move to Canada ...


JOIN! You're needed now more than ever: https://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/site/c.jhKPIXPCIoE/b.2590197/k.82B2/Become_a_Member/apps/ka/sd/donor.asp?c=jhKPIXPCIoE&b=2590197&en=dnIBIGOmE9KzEEOeH2JGINOrGnLSIROlF8KGJTOvGaIJL4J

It says $35 is the minimum there, but I've always paid just $25 a year. You get a magazine and a card and access to the full site. :thumbs:

[alkemical]

IMO, those that support torture are asking for a Totalitarian state.

[cutthemdown]

IMO, those that support torture are asking for a Totalitarian state.

I still think why you get arrested is more indicative of a totalitarian govt. I do see your point though that a line has to be drawn somewhere. To me that line is any American citizen does not get these techniques used on them. Any member of a standing army, IE a real country. If you have no uniform, are not american, and are caught being a terrorist then IMO you have no rights. These enemy combatants, terrorists, are not members of any country that has signed on to any rules of how to treat POW. They have no country!!!!

[baja]

I wouldnt mind gettin waterboarded

I'll waterboard you, let me , Please!

It feels just like drowning ya know, over and over again...

[baja]

Some people are just a little too far removed from the real world in their middle-class white suburban castle to understand what the world is like.

These people WILL KILL YOU. DEAD. and they wont feel a bit of remorse about it. In fact, they will think that they have moved closer to heaven. Yes. By killing you, your wife, and your CHILDREN, these monsters will think that they are moving closer to God.

These people arent Americans, do not have American sensibilities (all people are NOT the same), and in fact think that your American sensibilities are evil and make you a weakling ripe for the picking.

... says the self professed disciple of Jesus Christ.

[alkemical]

I still think why you get arrested is more indicative of a totalitarian govt. I do see your point though that a line has to be drawn somewhere. To me that line is any American citizen does not get these techniques used on them. Any member of a standing army, IE a real country. If you have no uniform, are not american, and are caught being a terrorist then IMO you have no rights. These enemy combatants, terrorists, are not members of any country that has signed on to any rules of how to treat POW. They have no country!!!!


Do you agree with the Terms of the Patriot Act, etc?

[alkemical]

... says the self professed disciple of Jesus Christ.

People have duality baja, until they reach true christ-consciousness - they don't understand IAM

[baja]

People have duality baja, until they reach true christ-consciousness - they don't understand IAM

That pretty much says it all in a phrase Josh. So glad for you that you get that. Deep down I believe we all need these hard times that are just around the corner to get waken up from the long sleep of complacency most are in.

[alkemical]

That pretty much says it all in a phrase Josh. So glad for you that you get that. Deep down I believe we all need these hard times that are just around the corner to get waken up from the long sleep of complacency most are in.

Well, it's kinda like you have people that read and philosophize. Then you have people that DO and gain the actual wisdom. Sorta like doing research or lab work, ya know.

[Bronco Bob]

I don't have a problem with forced nudity, humiliation, waterboarding, sleep deprivation any of that. If you think the CIA just now started doing stuff like that you ae crazy. You don't get information from prisoners by being nice to them and giving them a warm bed to sleep in. You give them those things only after they have talked. I could care less about the rights of terrorists and enemy combatants. They are not from a country, they have no army they belong to. Besides we have all seen how they treat our prisoners to a beheading party. If you think these terrorists will respond to interrogation that is nice and polite you are niave in the most extreme. This is war and they ain't kidding about, you can sit around on your computer and be holier then thou but it doesn't change the fact this is the real deal. Americans just don't get that this is war vs real enemies of the USA.

Oh sure they will respond just to get you to leave them alone. But there
is no proof that any response that they give amounts to anything.
John McCain was tortured by the North Vietnamese for years and to
my knowledge he never gave up anything that could be used against
us. Do you know of anything he gave up that could be useful in
any meaningful way by his torturers? So why would you think some
religious fanatic who thinks they are going to get 77 virgins when they
die would give up anything useful. What is worse is they will just
lie and give disinformation that actually makes matters worse.
If you just want to beat their asses as revenge, fine. But don't
pretend you are doing something noble while you are doing it.

[Bronco Bob]

I still think why you get arrested is more indicative of a totalitarian govt. I do see your point though that a line has to be drawn somewhere. To me that line is any American citizen does not get these techniques used on them. Any member of a standing army, IE a real country. If you have no uniform, are not american, and are caught being a terrorist then IMO you have no rights. These enemy combatants, terrorists, are not members of any country that has signed on to any rules of how to treat POW. They have no country!!!!

Maher Arar has a country. He is a Canadian citizen.

[alkemical]

Oh sure they will respond just to get you to leave them alone. But there
is no proof that any response that they give amounts to anything.
John McCain was tortured by the North Vietnamese for years and to
my knowledge he never gave up anything that could be used against
us. Do you know of anything he gave up that could be useful in
any meaningful way by his torturers? So why would you think some
religious fanatic who thinks they are going to get 77 virgins when they
die would give up anything useful. What is worse is they will just
lie and give disinformation that actually makes matters worse.
If you just want to beat their asses as revenge, fine. But don't
pretend you are doing something noble while you are doing it.

Exactly, f'n brownshirts.

[epicSocialism4tw]

... says the self professed disciple of Jesus Christ.

Do you even know what that means?

Not only that, but do you really have any idea of how those two ideas could possibly be reconciled to one another?

Every human should want to take the necessary precautions to protect their family from all possible harm. Not only is it an instinctual biological response, but it is derived from a higher ethical values as well.

War is a wicked thing, and to ignore that it exists is moronic.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well, it's kinda like you have people that read and philosophize. Then you have people that DO and gain the actual wisdom. Sorta like doing research or lab work, ya know.

So...what are you doing to actualize your philosophy? I see alot of fingerpointing here by guys who like to sit at their keyboards and espouse how great and spiritual they are, but after years of being aware of your beliefs have not seen any evidence one way or another of a commitment to serving any other people but themselves. If thats what one's spiritual discipline leads to, I would question whether it is for any other purpose but for stroking ones ego.

We only see words on this website, which are useless in judging a person.

You all are quick to judge.

[cutthemdown]

The CIA claims to have gotten really good information from certain prisoners. If not, well just deserts for a bunch of dudes that would slit my throat if they got the chance. I don't feel sorry for anyone excpet the families of people who lost sons/daughters in the war, the victims and families of 9-11.

[alkemical]

So...what are you doing to actualize your philosophy? I see alot of fingerpointing here by guys who like to sit at their keyboards and espouse how great and spiritual they are, but after years of being aware of your beliefs have not seen any evidence one way or another of a commitment to serving any other people but themselves. If thats what one's spiritual discipline leads to, I would question whether it is for any other purpose but for stroking ones ego.

We only see words on this website, which are useless in judging a person.

You all are quick to judge.


So lemme get this straight, you are telling people not to judge, by judging them? Brilliant! Thanks for proving my point.

[cutthemdown]

As far as Patriot Act goes only people doing something wrong need to fear it. Don't make phone calls and talk about illegal activity would be a good first step.

[alkemical]

Cutthemdown, i'm still waiting to hear if you support items like the patriot act, etc?

[Bronco Bob]

The CIA claims to have gotten really good information from certain prisoners. If not, well just deserts for a bunch of dudes that would slit my throat if they got the chance. I don't feel sorry for anyone excpet the families of people who lost sons/daughters in the war, the victims and families of 9-11.

Well, in that they destroyed the tapes and whatever other evidence they may
have had to back this up, all we have to go on now is their claims.
And this isn't about people who would slit your throat. This is about
people like Maher Arar, who had the crap stomped out of him for no
good reason.

Maher's Story in Brief

Maher Arar is a 34-year-old wireless technology consultant. He was born in Syria and came to Canada with his family at the age of 17. He became a Canadian citizen in 1991. On Sept. 26, 2002, while in transit in New York’s JFK airport when returning home from a vacation, Arar was detained by US officials and interrogated about alleged links to al-Qaeda. Twelve days later, he was chained, shackled and flown to Syria, where he was held in a tiny “grave-like” cell for ten months and ten days before he was moved to a better cell in a different prison. In Syria, he was beaten, tortured and forced to make a false confession.

During his imprisonment, Arar's wife, Monia Mazigh, campaigned relentlessly on his behalf until he was returned to Canada in October 2003. On Jan. 28, 2004, under pressure from Canadian human rights organizations and a growing number of citizens, the Government of Canada announced a Commission of Inquiry into the Actions of Canadian Officials in Relation to Maher Arar.

On September 18, 2006, the Commissioner of the Inquiry, Justice Dennis O'Connor, cleared Arar of all terrorism allegations, stating he was "able to say categorically that there is no evidence to indicate that Mr. Arar has committed any offence or that his activities constitute a threat to the security of Canada."

[epicSocialism4tw]

So lemme get this straight, you are telling people not to judge, by judging them? Brilliant! Thanks for proving my point.

Thanks for missing the point.

[baja]

So...what are you doing to actualize your philosophy? I see alot of fingerpointing here by guys who like to sit at their keyboards and espouse how great and spiritual they are, but after years of being aware of your beliefs have not seen any evidence one way or another of a commitment to serving any other people but themselves. If thats what one's spiritual discipline leads to, I would question whether it is for any other purpose but for stroking ones ego.

We only see words on this website, which are useless in judging a person.

<b>You all are quick to judge.


Oh the irony.

[alkemical]

Thanks for missing the point.

There wasn't one, and i already showed your hypocrisy.

[TailgateNut]

As far as Patriot Act goes only people doing something wrong need to fear it. Don't make phone calls and talk about illegal activity would be a good first step.



So if I make the "terror watch list" because my # came up because my teenage daughter, while talking to a friend, used the saying "that's da bomb", that would be ok. Then they can fly their Black helo's over my house and tap into all my communications (land lines, cell, internet, etc).

**** you and the patriot act! Call it the "unpatriotic act"!

I'm not giving up my civil rights just because some asshole from texass pushes "fear" to get his way!

I'm not afraid!

[epicSocialism4tw]

There wasn't one, and i already showed your hypocrisy.

No, you just showed that you do not feel any obligation to understand what you are talking about before you wander into some marginally related moralistic vagueries.

[epicSocialism4tw]

So if I make the "terror watch list" because my # came up because my teenage daughter, while talking to a friend, used the saying "that's da bomb", that would be ok. Then they can fly their Black helo's over my house and tap into all my communications (land lines, cell, internet, etc).

**** you and the patriot act! Call it the "unpatriotic act"!

I'm not giving up my civil rights just because some a-hole from texass pushes "fear" to get his way!

I'm not afraid!

The Patriot Act and the treatment of non-American POW's are two distinctly different situations.

[TailgateNut]

The Patriot Act and the treatment of non-American POW's are two distinctly different situations.

I was responding to Cutthimdowns' post. Take you drama somewhere else!

[epicSocialism4tw]

I was responding to Cutthimdowns' post. Take you drama somewhere else!

The Patriot Act should scare everybody.

I dont so much mind if terrorists are afraid of Guantanamo Bay.

[TheDave]

I do find it interesting that the more religious types seem to have the least empathy for the inhumane treatment of others. I wonder how much of that has to do with the assumption that we are only torturing muslims....

[epicSocialism4tw]

People have duality baja, until they reach true christ-consciousness - they don't understand IAM

You speak as if you know.

You think an awful lot of yourself if you put yourself in Jesus of Nazareth's place.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I do find it interesting that the more religious types seem to have the least empathy for the inhumane treatment of others. I wonder how much of that has to do with the assumption that we are only torturing muslims....

Our obligation as citizens is to one another first. Humane treatment does not mean allowing whomever to do whatever whenever they want to. It is inhumane to allow malicious intervention into your community by any person who enters in with only the intention of destroying it.

There are lines to be drawn in those regards.

However, the enemy is to be prayed for and welcomed under friendly, respectful premises. The enemy is also to be prayed for regardless.

[baja]

You speak as if you know.

You think an awful lot of yourself if you put yourself in Jesus of Nazareth's place.

I think he is talking about Jesus of Poughkeepsie.

[Kaylore]

Maybe one day we'll add Canada to our list of countries that matter.

[baja]

Maybe one day we'll add Canada to our list of countries that matter.

That is really an uninformed statement.

http://www.2ontario.com/welcome/coca_401.asp

http://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/canada&the_world/canada&us_border.html

[elsid13]

I don't have a problem with forced nudity, humiliation, waterboarding, sleep deprivation any of that. If you think the CIA just now started doing stuff like that you ae crazy. You don't get information from prisoners by being nice to them and giving them a warm bed to sleep in. You give them those things only after they have talked. I could care less about the rights of terrorists and enemy combatants. They are not from a country, they have no army they belong to. Besides we have all seen how they treat our prisoners to a beheading party. If you think these terrorists will respond to interrogation that is nice and polite you are niave in the most extreme. This is war and they ain't kidding about, you can sit around on your computer and be holier then thou but it doesn't change the fact this is the real deal. Americans just don't get that this is war vs real enemies of the USA.

Actually the not true. You gain intel but gaining thier trust, but most American think torture get you good information because of "24". Is there time you will be more physical yes, but giving them a good meal and nice bed is usually a better way to get information you want. When you physical abuse them, they just give you information to make the pain stop.

[alkemical]

No, you just showed that you do not feel any obligation to understand what you are talking about before you wander into some marginally related moralistic vagueries.

Sorry Llama - you are still proving my point. Have a good weekend though.

[TheDave]

Actually the not true. You gain intel but gaining thier trust, but most American think torture get you good information because of "24". Is there time you will be more physical yes, but giving them a good meal and nice bed is usually a better way to get information you want. When you physical abuse them, they just give you information to make the pain stop.

Never understood why people can't figure that one out...

I remember when Errand use to use the "24" scenario everytime this subject came up...

[TailgateNut]

Never understood why people can't figure that one out...

I remember when Errand use to use the "24" scenario everytime this subject came up...

Those that are pro-torture should be given a bit of their own "medicine". Then ask the same question!

[elsid13]

Never understood why people can't figure that one out...

I remember when Errand use to use the "24" scenario everytime this subject came up...

It because that 97% of population is amateur at this stuff and their only exposure is to what they see in movies or read in books (mostly written by folks that also don't do this ****).

It just like when folks talk about the military and think surprise means have weapon that enemy doesn't know about. Surprise is getting inside the enemy's command and control decision loop.

[baja]

We even had a guy this morning that said he wanted to be water boarded.

[TheDave]

It because that 97% of population is amateur at this stuff and their only exposure is to what they see in movies or read in books (mostly written by folks that also don't do this ****).

It just like when folks talk about the military and think surprise means have weapon that enemy doesn't know about. Surprise is getting inside the enemy's command and control decision loop.

Have Spider or myself officially offered you a cabinet position yet?

[elsid13]

Those that are pro-torture should be given a bit of their own "medicine". Then ask the same question!

That not right. People shouldn't be force into that stuff unless it the last resort

[elsid13]

Have Spider or myself officially offered you a cabinet position yet?

Oh Spider offered me something, but I really prefer females that walk on 2 legs not 4.

[TailgateNut]

That not right. People shouldn't be force into that stuff unless it the last resort



For those who are pro torture, it wouldn't hurt. A bit of water and electricity just might restart their gray matter!

[baja]

Oh Spider offered me something, but I really prefer females that walk on 2 legs not 4.

Wow he offered you his sister. ;D

[TailgateNut]

Here's an old aviator trick.

Capture a few enemy combatants and blinfold their asses.
Take 'em for a ride in the old chopper.
Hover a few feet from the ground and throw all but one out (have one of your own keep 'em company until you return).
Then increase you altitude to about 500 feet and take the last guys blindfold off.

He'll sing like a canary! Guaranteed!;D

...and nobody gets hurt.

[TheDave]

Here's an old aviator trick.

Capture a few enemy combatants and blinfold their asses.
Take 'em for a ride in the old chopper.
Hover a few feet from the ground and throw all but one out (have one of your own keep 'em company until you return).
Then increase you altitude to about 500 feet and take the last guys blindfold off.

He'll sing like a canary! Guaranteed!;D

...and nobody gets hurt.

Same problem... he says anything he thinks you want to hear.

[TailgateNut]

Same problem... he says anything he thinks you want to hear.


Not really! If you ask for coordinates and tell the fool he's coming along for the ride, they will spill the beans!
But in the end, aside from some ****ty drawers, no one gets physically hurt!

[Spider]

I was tsalking to Jesus on the CB yesterday ... he sure is pissed

[TailgateNut]

I was tsalking to Jesus on the CB yesterday ... he sure is pissed


Was his last name Moralez?:~ohyah!:

[Spider]

Was his last name Moralez?:~ohyah!:

LOL no , but I did talk to a guy named E Manual Labor

[TailgateNut]

LOL no , but I did talk to a guy named E Manual Labor

Ya better lay off the meth!;D I hear it makes you hallucinate after a few days!

[baja]

LOL no , but I did talk to a guy named E Manual Labor

Jesus of Cabo is my neighbor

[Spider]

Ya better lay off the meth!;D I hear it makes you hallucinate after a few days!

Oh Brother .... first it is Spider , stop sniffing glue , then it is Spider stop huffing paint , then it is spider lay off the oxicontient , then spider quit drinking , now it is Spider stop using meth ......... do you people ever stop ? ;D

[baja]

Oh Brother .... first it is Spider , stop sniffing glue , then it is Spider stop huffing paint , then it is spider lay off the oxicontient , then spider quit drinking , now it is Spider stop using meth ......... do you people ever stop ? ;D

Spider stop taking fertility pills.

[cutthemdown]

The violence in our own prison system makes these types of tortures seem sort of easy going. I mean prisoners gets shanked, raped, etc etc in prisons everyday but most of you have no problems sending people there. If anything the terrorists have it easy. Put them in San Quentin and see how it goes.

[Dead Head]

The violence in our own prison system makes these types of tortures seem sort of easy going. I mean prisoners gets shanked, raped, etc etc in prisons everyday but most of you have no problems sending people there. If anything the terrorists have it easy. Put them in San Quentin and see how it goes.

Our prison system is terrible and ridiculous. We proabably jail more people in this country for nothing than any other. We design our prisons to hold x amount of people and then proceed to go beyond those limits.

[Bronco Bob]

Our prison system is terrible and ridiculous. We proabably jail more people in this country for nothing than any other. We design our prisons to hold x amount of people and then proceed to go beyond those limits.

Half the people in our prisons are in there for drug offenses. A lot of them
just for simple possession. Until we stop this insane "war on drugs"
and start treating drug use as a medical problem, nothing is going
to get better. And no, I'm not a doper who just wants easy access.
A cup of coffee in the morning is about the extent of my drug use.

[baja]

Half the people in our prisons are in there for drug offenses. A lot of them
just for simple possession. Until we stop this insane "war on drugs"
and start treating drug use as a medical problem, nothing is going
to get better. And no, I'm not a doper who just wants easy access.
A cup of coffee in the morning is about the extent of my drug use.

This is a prime example of how broken our government really is.

[Bronx33]

Welcome to Iran and Syria's little club.


The United States has been listed as a country where prisoners are at risk of
torture in a training document produced by the Canadian foreign ministry.

It also classifies some US interrogation techniques as torture.

The manual - part of a training course on torture awareness for diplomats -
also includes Israel, China, Iran and Afghanistan on its watch list.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7195276.stm




Sweet! no more candy a** crap. (welcome to the new world sunshine)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

As far as Patriot Act goes only people doing something wrong need to fear it.

This argument presupposes that those who wield such powers never abuse them, are beyond corruption, are always honest, always trustworthy, and always have our best interests at heart.

Surely you are not this naive?

[Bronco Bob]

This argument presupposes that those who wield such powers never abuse them, are beyond corruption, are always honest, always trustworthy, and always have our best interests at heart.

Surely you are not this naive?

Correct. Or even people that are sincere but just too overzealous.
What did Maher Arar do wrong? He probably never feared the so-called
Patriot Act either. Being a Canadian citizen, he probably never even
heard of it.

[Breaker]

Maher Arar has a country. He is a Canadian citizen.

That is splitting hairs. A Canadian fighting with a paramilitary group is not a recognized member of a nations armed forces. This is exactly the same as a operational and non-operational cover for spies. You declare certain people to be official members of your nation, if they are caught then they are arrested and receive the rights due to them under the Geneva Convention. If they are non-operational they are spies and almost ever nation in the world will torture them then shoot them dead. An American citizen fighting with the Chechen rebels is a terrorist according to Russia and is not a member of the US military, thus they are not protected from harm, torture, execution. A combatant or terrorist should have no reasonable expectation of proper treatment from this nation, if they want to engage in paramilitary actions, they should not be treated as military units. This has been the way of things since the exploratory officers of the Napoleonic Wars, they scouted in uniform so they would not be executed as spies.

[TDmvp]

Who gives a $hit what Canada says lol

[Bronco Bob]

That is splitting hairs. A Canadian fighting with a paramilitary group is not a recognized member of a nations armed forces. This is exactly the same as a operational and non-operational cover for spies. You declare certain people to be official members of your nation, if they are caught then they are arrested and receive the rights due to them under the Geneva Convention. If they are non-operational they are spies and almost ever nation in the world will torture them then shoot them dead. An American citizen fighting with the Chechen rebels is a terrorist according to Russia and is not a member of the US military, thus they are not protected from harm, torture, execution. A combatant or terrorist should have no reasonable expectation of proper treatment from this nation, if they want to engage in paramilitary actions, they should not be treated as military units. This has been the way of things since the exploratory officers of the Napoleonic Wars, they scouted in uniform so they would not be executed as spies.

And what exactly does this have to do with Maher Arar?

[baja]

Who gives a $hit what Canada says lol

ya know what is interesting about these message boards the bozos stand in line to bare their limited minds for all to see.

[Dudeskey]

Some people are just a little too far removed from the real world in their middle-class white suburban castle to understand what the world is like.

These people WILL KILL YOU. DEAD. and they wont feel a bit of remorse about it. In fact, they will think that they have moved closer to heaven. Yes. By killing you, your wife, and your CHILDREN, these monsters will think that they are moving closer to God.

These people arent Americans, do not have American sensibilities (all people are NOT the same), and in fact think that your American sensibilities are evil and make you a weakling ripe for the picking.

Translation: be afraid, be very afraid- thats all the neocons have to play on anymore... rinse and repeat

[Dudeskey]

The violence in our own prison system makes these types of tortures seem sort of easy going. I mean prisoners gets shanked, raped, etc etc in prisons everyday but most of you have no problems sending people there. If anything the terrorists have it easy. Put them in San Quentin and see how it goes.

Too much time/ energy on their hands... bring back hard labor... imagine how many roads we could get fixed...

[baja]

Translation: be afraid, be very afraid- thats all the neocons have to play on anymore... rinse and repeat

QFT

[Bronco Bob]

Too much time/ energy on their hands... bring back hard labor... imagine how many roads we could get fixed...

Anyone ever hear about sheriff Joe Arpaio in Maricopa County, Arizona?
Read up sometime on some of his policies on inmates at the county jail.

[alkemical]

You speak as if you know.

You think an awful lot of yourself if you put yourself in Jesus of Nazareth's place.


I did? I just had the IAM thing happen to me, as the alchemists of old would have worked for transmutation to unify their soul to find the Stone, or as the Rosicurians had look for the secret to the Rosi-Crux.

One thing you have to realize is this: Jesus wanted everyone to remove the duality of their nature and become singular. You haven't realized that yet. It's reflected in your dualistic nature, most of which you aren't even aware of.

Don't READ the bible Llama - USE it.

[TailgateNut]

Some people are just a little too far removed from the real world in their middle-class white suburban castle to understand what the world is like.

These people WILL KILL YOU. DEAD. and they wont feel a bit of remorse about it. In fact, they will think that they have moved closer to heaven. Yes. By killing you, your wife, and your CHILDREN, these monsters will think that they are moving closer to God.

These people arent Americans, do not have American sensibilities (all people are NOT the same), and in fact think that your American sensibilities are evil and make you a weakling ripe for the picking.


Damn, I didn't realize yesterday could have been my last day on this planet. I was driving on hwy 36 and I saw "one of those people in a car next to me". I guess in hindsight, I should have ran for cover and called Homeland security.
:spit:


BOOOOO!

[elsid13]

Some people are just a little too far removed from the real world in their middle-class white suburban castle to understand what the world is like.

These people WILL KILL YOU. DEAD. and they wont feel a bit of remorse about it. In fact, they will think that they have moved closer to heaven. Yes. By killing you, your wife, and your CHILDREN, these monsters will think that they are moving closer to God.

These people arent Americans, do not have American sensibilities (all people are NOT the same), and in fact think that your American sensibilities are evil and make you a weakling ripe for the picking.

My American sensibilities are what makes us better then them. It when we lose those sensibilities is when they have won, because they have remade us into a lesser country. It does us no good to win the battle to lose our souls!

[alkemical]

Oh come on guys, don't you know - you have to be scared! THEY are after us! OMG OMG OMG!!!! THEY ARE COMING!!!! They will kill you dead. They won't kill you alive, but DEAD!!!!!!!

[TailgateNut]

I'm going to develop some "muslim detectors". I'm thinking you could attach them to the end of your curb feelers and they would prompt an audible alarm in the event "one of those people" get within 50' of your vehicle.:giggle:

[alkemical]

you know, we could probably invent some sort of threat detector

[TailgateNut]

you know, we could probably invent some sort of threat detector


Already patented. It's called a "Karl Rove".

[alkemical]

Already patented. It's called a "Karl Rove".

Oh, i thought he was just a manure spreader.

[TailgateNut]

Oh, i thought he was just a manure spreader.


Naw, that's called a "Rush Limbaugh"!

[alkemical]

Naw, that's called a "Rush Limbaugh"!

Hmmm - see rove can't be the fear detector - because he doesn't DETECT fear.

Maybe we could make a box that would some how link over wi-fi to go with the terror threat colour - now we need a clever name....

[TailgateNut]

Fraid-o-matic

[alkemical]

PatriotDefender

[baja]

Poop - O - Smeller

[baja]

The Llamatron

[TailgateNut]

The Llamatron


LOL


How 'bout the Bu****o-meter?

[epicSocialism4tw]

My American sensibilities are what makes us better then them. It when we lose those sensibilities is when they have won, because they have remade us into a lesser country. It does us no good to win the battle to lose our souls!

Your first mistake is not understanding that you arent any better than they are.

Your second mistake is misunderstanding the nature of war.

Your third mistake is being ambivalent towards people that intend you harm.

Your fourth mistake, and probably the most senseless, is allowing these people to occupy benevolent space in your head. They will use your benevolence against you and call you weak for it.

You need to grow up and get cultured, son.

[cutthemdown]

This argument presupposes that those who wield such powers never abuse them, are beyond corruption, are always honest, always trustworthy, and always have our best interests at heart.

Surely you are not this naive?

For sure the Patriot Act will probably be abused at some point. But so is all the other laws because sometimes law enforcement is not honest. IE illegal searches, racial profiling, planting evidence, etc etc . My point is to worry about the govt using the Patriot Act against you just isn't worth it. Sure I'm sure some abuse will happen because in the real world that's always the case. My point is that worrying about it is pretty stupid unless you are engaged in illegal activity.

If I see some evidence that the govt is using the Patriot Act to somehow frame Americans that have done nothing wrong then I will join you in your fight against it. At this point however the worst I heard was them using it to monitor people they knew were not terrorist, but were really just citizens the suspected of some sort of crime. I don't think they should do that but really unless you break the law I doubt the govt has any reason to care about what you do.

Baja if you think the govt cares what you say on the phone etc then who is the one that is naive? I mean cmon neither of us are important enough to worry about it. If I was some sort of anti govt crusader who the govt was out to get I might worry then. Or if I was a drug dealer or ran some sort of illegal enterprise I also would be against giving law enforcement tools to use against me like the Patriot Act etc. Especially if your illegal enterprise crossed out of the country etc etc. I honestly believe that no law abiding citizens need fear the Patriot Act.

[baja]

That's what the German Jews thought.

[cutthemdown]

Correct. Or even people that are sincere but just too overzealous.
What did Maher Arar do wrong? He probably never feared the so-called
Patriot Act either. Being a Canadian citizen, he probably never even
heard of it.

Yes but the Canadian Govt told the US homeland security he trained with al queda and was a threat. It's not Americas fault IMO. He was Syrian born and then listed by his govt in canada as a terrorist. What do you expect the USA to do in that case? He sued the govt of Canada and won so America was not to blame. Besides he isn't American so it's not a good example. I want examples of Americans who were innocent screwed by the Patriot Act. If you don't have like 100 of them then the law isn't hurting Americans.

[TailgateNut]

For sure the Patriot Act will probably be abused at some point. But so is all the other laws because sometimes law enforcement is not honest. IE illegal searches, racial profiling, planting evidence, etc etc . My point is to worry about the govt using the Patriot Act against you just isn't worth it. Sure I'm sure some abuse will happen because in the real world that's always the case. My point is that worrying about it is pretty stupid unless you are engaged in illegal activity.

If I see some evidence that the govt is using the Patriot Act to somehow frame Americans that have done nothing wrong then I will join you in your fight against it. At this point however the worst I heard was them using it to monitor people they knew were not terrorist, but were really just citizens the suspected of some sort of crime. I don't think they should do that but really unless you break the law I doubt the govt has any reason to care about what you do.

Baja if you think the govt cares what you say on the phone etc then who is the one that is naive? I mean cmon neither of us are important enough to worry about it. If I was some sort of anti govt crusader who the govt was out to get I might worry then. Or if I was a drug dealer or ran some sort of illegal enterprise I also would be against giving law enforcement tools to use against me like the Patriot Act etc. Especially if your illegal enterprise crossed out of the country etc etc. I honestly believe that no law abiding citizens need fear the Patriot Act.


OKEE DOKEE!

We should just let the goverment put a robotic camera in our homes, JUST IN CASE!:rofl:

[Rohirrim]

The Llamatron

Hilarious!

Soaks your brains in radioactive Mav waves.

[alkemical]

For sure the Patriot Act will probably be abused at some point. But so is all the other laws because sometimes law enforcement is not honest. IE illegal searches, racial profiling, planting evidence, etc etc . My point is to worry about the govt using the Patriot Act against you just isn't worth it. Sure I'm sure some abuse will happen because in the real world that's always the case. My point is that worrying about it is pretty stupid unless you are engaged in illegal activity.

If I see some evidence that the govt is using the Patriot Act to somehow frame Americans that have done nothing wrong then I will join you in your fight against it. At this point however the worst I heard was them using it to monitor people they knew were not terrorist, but were really just citizens the suspected of some sort of crime. I don't think they should do that but really unless you break the law I doubt the govt has any reason to care about what you do.

Baja if you think the govt cares what you say on the phone etc then who is the one that is naive? I mean cmon neither of us are important enough to worry about it. If I was some sort of anti govt crusader who the govt was out to get I might worry then. Or if I was a drug dealer or ran some sort of illegal enterprise I also would be against giving law enforcement tools to use against me like the Patriot Act etc. Especially if your illegal enterprise crossed out of the country etc etc. I honestly believe that no law abiding citizens need fear the Patriot Act.


You know you made this comment about how you'd be for the patriot act as long as no citizen would have it used against them. This leads me to believe you've not really read the patriot act.

[alkemical]

That's what the German Jews thought.

Exactly baja - supporting legislation that allows the gov't to REMOVE your citizenship status and classify you as an "enemy combatant of the state" - as so you have no civil liberties is nothing more than supporting a tyrannical state. Patriots they call themselves, but cowardice is what beats in their hearts. They are ruled by fear and become easily herded.

[alkemical]

# Serve a National Security Letter (NSL) on an Internet Service Provider (ISP) so coercive under the provisions of the NSL statue that a federal court struck down the entire statute - as vastly expanded by the Patriot Act - used to obtain information about e-mail activity and web surfing for intelligence investigations.

# Gag that ISP from disclosing this abuse to the public, and gag the ACLU itself, which represents the ISP, from disclosing this abuse to the public when ACLU became aware of it, and from disclosing important circumstances relating to this abuse and other possible abuses of the gag, even to this very day.

# Investigate and prosecute crimes that are not terrorism offenses, even though it cited terrorism prevention as the reason Congress should enact the law, and cites terrorism prevention as the reason why it cannot be changed.


http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17564prs20050404.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act_abuses

On March 9, 2007, a Justice Department audit found that the FBI had "improperly and, in some cases, illegally used the USA Patriot Act to secretly obtain personal information" about United States citizens. [1]

On June 15, 2007, following an internal audit finding that FBI agents abused a Patriot Act power more than 1000 times, U.S. District Judge John D. Bates ordered the agency to begin turning over thousands of pages of documents related to the agency's national security letters program.[2]

Adam McGaughey, the webmaster of a fan site for the television show Stargate SG-1, was charged with copyright infringement and computer fraud. During the investigation, the FBI invoked a provision of the Act to obtain financial records from the site's Internet Service Provider.[10] The USA PATRIOT Act amended the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act to include search and seizure of records from Internet Service Providers.

Summit, New Jersey invoked the USA PATRIOT Act to defend itself from a lawsuit over removing homeless people from its train station.

The city said that its conduct is protected by the Patriot Act and that a homeless man's federal lawsuit should be barred. The city cited a section of the law regarding "attacks and other violence against mass transportation systems."

The Justice Department criticized Summit's use of the law saying that it "[represented] a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Patriot Act is."

On October 24, 2005, David Sobel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) obtained FBI Papers under the Freedom of Information Act that revealed that the FBI had been conducting surveillance on citizens for lengthy periods of time without correct paperwork. A total of 13 cases from 2002 to 2004 were referred to the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board's Intelligence Oversight Board. [18]

[elsid13]

Your first mistake is not understanding that you arent any better than they are.

ELSID13 Response - So American and the West are no better then a bunch of thugs that attack women and children, and support religious fascist state???

Your second mistake is misunderstanding the nature of war.

ELSID13 Response - Gee I must of miss all that time I spend at work, or that day on Sept 11 when I got lucky meeting because a meeting got cancelled at the Pentagon??? Or when I had to see what happens at Dover


Your third mistake is being ambivalent towards people that intend you harm.

ELSID13 Response - No one said I was ambivalent, just that I refuse to act like the cowardly animals.

Your fourth mistake, and probably the most senseless, is allowing these people to occupy benevolent space in your head. They will use your benevolence against you and call you weak for it.

ELSID13- What **** do I care what the cowards think about me. They can call me weak all they want, because I refuse to use terror tactics aimed at innocents, all that does anger the population and gives them a recruitment base. I will not allow them to dictate how we act. Then they have gotten inside our decision loop, not the other way around. You win a war like this not be nastier then the other guy (see the French and British experience in colonial era) but by patience and good intelligence and winning the support of the local populations.

You need to grow up and get cultured, son.
ELSID13 - Since I done my time oversea, have the higher education and work experience to say that grown up enough boy.



See my responses above drama

[epicSocialism4tw]

See my responses above drama

Brilliant

[Spider]

Your first mistake is not understanding that you arent any better than they are.

Your second mistake is misunderstanding the nature of war.

Your third mistake is being ambivalent towards people that intend you harm.

Your fourth mistake, and probably the most senseless, is allowing these people to occupy benevolent space in your head. They will use your benevolence against you and call you weak for it.

You need to grow up and get cultured, son.

Prescription Drugs or Street drugs this week ?

[epicSocialism4tw]

What on earth is it with you bunch of libfanatics this week?

Are you guys just bored or what?

[Rohirrim]

If the Soviet Union was still alive, we'd be treating Islamic terrorists with no more attention than we give to any other renegade anarchist groups. But to serve the purposes of the military/industrial complex in America, terrorists had to become the NEW Soviet Union.

[elsid13]

Brilliant

Drama

What wrong have nothing else to say. You want the face of war, then go visit a Veteran Hospital in your area, they can always use volunteers.

Because the hardest thing that I seen in the last year, was the Parade of Hero Walk in the Pentagon. Where they have kids (and 90% of them are kids) from Bethesda and Walter Reed come over to be honored. Looking at some kid that had his lips and ears burned away is always help focus on what it means when someone talks about going to war.

[alkemical]

If the Soviet Union was still alive, we'd be treating Islamic terrorists with no more attention than we give to any other renegade anarchist groups. But to serve the purposes of the military/industrial complex in America, terrorists had to become the NEW Soviet Union.

Amazing isn't it.

[alkemical]

Drama

What wrong have nothing else to say. You want the face of war, then go visit a Veteran Hospital in your area, they can always use volunteers.

Because the hardest thing that I seen in the last year, was the Parade of Hero Walk in the Pentagon. Where they have kids (and 90% of them are kids) from Bethesda and Walter Reed come over to be honored. Looking at some kid that had his lips and ears burned away is always help focus on what it means when someone talks about going to war.

Watch out, he might break out his thesaurus.

[Spider]

What on earth is it with you bunch of libfanatics this week?

Are you guys just bored or what?

Have you ever seen someone seriously injured ?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Watch out, he might break out his thesaurus.

I thought you were well on your way to Christ-consciousness, Josh.

So much venom for such a spiritual hero.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Have you ever seen someone seriously injured ?


Have you been able to put down the meth pipe today?

[Spider]

Have you been able to put down the meth pipe today?

Thought so ......

[TailgateNut]

Have you been able to put down the meth pipe today?


People smoke meth?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Strange people.

[Spider]

People smoke meth?

in his world they do .......;D

[TailgateNut]

Strange people.


People from Texass?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Yes. People from Texas. ::)

Wow.

[elsid13]

Have you ever seen someone seriously injured ?

It not even that Spider. The idiots that advocate this stuff are the same people that would refuse to did it themselves. They would rather leave the messy details to someone else.

That why I like McCain. He knows what it means to be tortured, man can not lift his arms after a certain point because of what happened to him, and he won't support it for any reason. I don't like some of his social stances but he knows what it means to be a leader.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Thought so ......

Didnt think so.

[alkemical]

I thought you were well on your way to Christ-consciousness, Josh.

So much venom for such a spiritual hero.

Even Jesus picked his nose. ;) Besides maybe i'm carrying a sword against unbelievers!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Even Jesus picked his nose. ;) Besides maybe i'm carrying a sword against unbelievers!

Hmmm...sure. Im not sure who you are performing for, but I guess it doesnt really matter if it makes sense or not.

[baja]

If the Soviet Union was still alive, we'd be treating Islamic terrorists with no more attention than we give to any other renegade anarchist groups. But to serve the purposes of the military/industrial complex in America, terrorists had to become the NEW Soviet Union.

Gotta have a boogie man.

[baja]

Have you ever seen someone seriously injured ?

brain injury doesn't count Llama.

[baja]

Even Jesus picked his nose. ;) Besides maybe i'm carrying a sword against unbelievers!

And He was a jew so that was no small job.

[TailgateNut]

And He was a jew so that was no small job.


Yikes!

[baja]

I forgot the smilie. ;D

[epicSocialism4tw]

Yikes!

C'mon...you know you liked it.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I forgot the smilie. ;D

Whew! That would have made everything a - okay!

Thanks for pointing that out.

[TailgateNut]

C'mon...you know you liked it.


I was going to say, "that must have been why they invented the coke spoon", but I didn't want to drown from all the elephant tears youl'd spill on the board!Hilarious!

[epicSocialism4tw]

I was going to say, "that must have been why they invented the coke spoon", but I didn't want to drown from all the elephant tears youl'd spill on the board!Hilarious!


Oh My Gosh! That's freakin' hilarity!

You, sir, are amazing.

Please continue. :thumbs:

[TailgateNut]

Oh My Gosh! That's freakin' hilarity!

You, sir, are amazing.

Please continue. :thumbs:


I thought you, of all people would REALLY enjoy that.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I thought you, of all people would REALLY enjoy that.

The sort of elegance only a few on this board can pull off.

Never lose that grace, boss.

Beautiful.

[TailgateNut]

Never lose that grace, boss.

.

Don't intend to!


To understand me, read between the lines!:thanku:

[alkemical]

Hmmm...sure. Im not sure who you are performing for, but I guess it doesnt really matter if it makes sense or not.

Why llama, i'm performing for you.......

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
William Shakespeare

[epicSocialism4tw]

Why llama, i'm performing for you.......

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
William Shakespeare

Profundity after profundity.

Man...how am I ever going to recover after being laid low by such genius as I have embibed today?

[alkemical]

Profundity after profundity.

Man...how am I ever going to recover after being laid low by such genius as I have embibed today?

Well, that's your problem, you should imbibe instead. Masticate on that.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well, that's your problem, you should imbibe instead. Masticate on that.

That's too much to chew on, Holy One.

[alkemical]

That's too much to chew on, Holy One.

Wait, i know the answer you were bottle fed! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama#Behavior)

However, llamas who are bottle-fed or over-socialised and over-handled as youngsters will become extremely difficult to handle when mature, when they will begin to treat humans as they treat each other, which is characterized by bouts of spitting, kicking and neck wrestling. Anyone having to bottle-feed a cria should keep contact to a minimum and stop as soon as possible.

[baja]

Whew! That would have made everything a - okay!

Thanks for pointing that out.

llama have you ever wondered why people here pick on you?

BTW I am part jew and I do have a big nose and I enjoy picking it, want some?

[alkemical]

llama have you ever wondered why people here pick on you?

BTW I am part jew and I do have a big nose and I enjoy picking it, want some?

Me too, but from my mothers side.

[baja]

Don't intend to!


To understand me, read between the lines!:thanku:

Damn TGN you ask a lot, Llama is the poster boy for "went over his head" crowd.

I suspect he is related to GWB.

[alkemical]

Damn TGN you ask a lot, Llama is the poster boy for "went over his head" crowd.

I suspect he is related to GWB.


http://www.theangryllama.com/images/angryllama.jpg

[baja]

Wait, i know the answer you were bottle fed! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama#Behavior)

However, llamas who are bottle-fed or over-socialised and over-handled as youngsters will become extremely difficult to handle when mature, when they will begin to treat humans as they treat each other, which is characterized by bouts of spitting, kicking and neck wrestling. Anyone having to bottle-feed a cria should keep contact to a minimum and stop as soon as possible.

Rim shot!!!!!

[TailgateNut]

Damn TGN you ask a lot, Llama is the poster boy for "went over his head" crowd.

I suspect he is related to GWB.


I've been known to attack his persona, but "related to GWB", that's a low blow, considering the branchless Bush family tree!

[alkemical]

I've been known to attack his persona, but "related to GWB", that's a low blow, considering the branchless Bush family tree!

bah, his daughters are hot.

[baja]

Well they both hail from Texas and there is Alex R.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well they both hail from Texas and there is Alex R.

All of whom are out of your league in more ways than one.

[alkemical]

Well they both hail from Texas and there is Alex R.

http://yosemite-sam.net/Sam-Guns.jpg

[alkemical]

All of whom are out of your league in more ways than one.

http://www.theangryllama.com/images/spitllama.gif

[epicSocialism4tw]

cute

[alkemical]

cute

You used to be

http://www.theangryllama.com/images/babyllama.jpg

[Bronco Bob]

Five Things Never to do to a Llama

http://www.visionforum.com/hottopics/blogs/dwp/Evil%20Llama.jpg

Never discuss dental hygiene with a llama.
2. Never verbally threaten a llama.
3. Never ask a llama if he was trained by Al Qaeda
4. Never call a llama “the illegal immigrant of the American barnyard.”
5. Never, ever use the word: “llama-burger.”

And should you be fool enough to do any of the above, remember that God in
his providence has equipped llamas with two qualities which, when matched
with their violent tempers rightly qualifies them as predatory animals.
The first is the ability to precision spit with an accuracy that would make
an Olympic sharpshooter blush. The second is the capacity of llamas to
manufacture oceans of noxious bile within the depths of their stomachs — no
doubt stored near their dark hearts.
But should you find that you have succumbed to temptation and disregarded
my above warnings by engaging a llama in dialogue, and should you value the
company of family and friends, then please listen carefully to my counsel: The
moment that diabolical creature lowers his ears — run! Run for your life.
Run for the sake of generations yet to be born. Run and don’t look back.

[alkemical]

http://www.theangryllama.com/llamasong.html

[baja]

Looks like it's roast the llama day.

[alkemical]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jIFsTo19N8Z7aMbOOQ2C-X0NmJXgD8U8JGPO1

Tom Ridge: Waterboarding Is Torture

By EILEEN SULLIVAN – 3 days ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The first secretary of the Homeland Security Department says waterboarding is torture.

"There's just no doubt in my mind — under any set of rules — waterboarding is torture," Tom Ridge said Friday in an interview with the Associated Press. Ridge had offered the same opinion earlier in the day to members of the American Bar Association at a homeland security conference.

"One of America's greatest strengths is the soft power of our value system and how we treat prisoners of war, and we don't torture," Ridge said in the interview. Ridge was secretary of the Homeland Security Department between 2003 and 2005. "And I believe, unlike others in the administration, that waterboarding was, is — and will always be — torture. That's a simple statement."

Waterboarding is a harsh interrogation tactic that was used by CIA officers in 2002 and 2003 on three alleged al-Qaida terrorists. The tactic gives the subject the sensation of drowning.

The CIA has not used the technique since 2003, and CIA Director Michael Hayden prohibited it in 2006, according to U.S. officials. The debate was recently revived when the CIA revealed it had destroyed videotapes showing the interrogations of two alleged terrorists, both of whom were waterboarded.

Ridge's comments come a week after a report that Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell said he would consider waterboarding torture if it were used against him.

In a separate interview with The Associated Press on Thursday, the current Homeland Security secretary, Michael Chertoff, refused to say what he thinks of the interrogation technique. Chertoff, a former federal prosecutor and judge — who was also assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's Criminal Division in 2002 — said the question should be asked in the context of a specific set of facts and a specific statute and should not be posed abstractly.

"This is too important a discussion to have based on throwing one question at somebody," Chertoff said.

Attorney General Michael Mukasey has declined so far to rule on whether waterboarding constitutes torture. An affirmative finding by Mukasey could put at risk the CIA interrogators who were authorized by the White House in 2002 to waterboard three prisoners deemed resistant to conventional techniques.

Ridge, homeland security adviser and then secretary from 2001 to 2005, said he was not involved in the discussions about CIA interrogation techniques. Rather, his department was a consumer of any intelligence gleaned from them.

"I have no idea how any of the intelligence community extrapolated any information from anybody — where they got it, how they got it, and from whom they got it. But waterboarding is torture."

Ridge, a lawyer, wades into the waterboarding debate with both a military and civilian background. He is also a former Pennsylvania governor and congressman. He has since started his own homeland security consulting firm.

"As a former soldier, I will tell you that we go to great pains, and a lot of men and women, who serve in the military at risk of their own lives, do everything they can to minimize civilian casualties and certainly do everything they can to respect the Geneva Convention."

The House and Senate intelligence committees want to prohibit the CIA from using any interrogation techniques not allowed by the military. That list includes waterboarding. If their intelligence bill containing the restriction is approved by Congress, it almost certainly will face a veto from President Bush.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/canada-tort.jpg

[Rohirrim]

As if the Canadians were not involved in torture?
http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=61103&rendTypeId=4

[Spider]

As if the Canadians were not involved in torture?
http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=61103&rendTypeId=4

Who is that ? .. I would hit it .......well I guess I really dont need to know her name