"Environment" my butt - Ethanol causes a Beer Crisis!

[BroncoBuff]

Ethanol must be the Devil's own conspiracy ....


The Beer Crisis
The Economist print edition

Trouble brewing

JUST as the festive season gets going, drinkers in America are finding their favourite beer suddenly more expensive or even—horrors!—not available at all. Hit by price increases and shortages, many breweries, particularly the small “craft brewers” and the even smaller microbreweries, are being forced to raise prices, make do with modified recipes or shut off the spigots altogether.

The humble hop, the plant that gives beer its distinctive flavour, is the main problem. Many farmers in the Pacific northwest, where America's hop production is concentrated, have turned to more profitable lines—especially corn, which can be made into ethanol. The decrease in hop production, put at some 50% over the past decade, has sent prices through the roof. Brian Owens, the brewmaster of the O'Fallon Brewery near St Louis, Missouri, says that the variety he once bought for $3 a pound (0.45kg) now costs five times that. Many smaller breweries cannot find what they need at any price. Industry giants like Anheuser-Busch and Miller are better off, thanks to long-term contracts. But even Anheuser-Busch has been forced to raise prices for its six-packs.

Without their supply of hops, some smaller producers are going out of business, bringing to a halt the fastest-growing segment of the industry. Other craft brewers and brewpubs are experimenting with new recipes, hoping their customers will adapt.

The hops shortage is only part of the problem. Things are no better for barley, used to make the malt that yeast turns into alcohol. It too has been ploughed under in favour of corn. Crop failures in Australia and Europe, combined with the weak dollar, have made it harder to replace the shortage with imports. Other price increases, of fuel, glass and metal, add to the pressure.
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10337782





. . . t h e . h o r r o r . . .

[yavoon]

the indignity of it all!

[Beantown Bronco]

Now that's what I call "an inconvenient truth"

[snowspot66]

It sucks. We can get the same stuff from industrial hemp, the plant grows faster, on land crops like corn cant even get a foothold in, and takes almost no irrigation or fertilization. There's no need to be using tons of corn for energy. There are alternative crops for it. It's just raising prices for everybody.

[PatsWin2002]

It sucks. We can get the same stuff from industrial hemp, the plant grows faster, on land crops like corn cant even get a foothold in, and takes almost no irrigation or fertilization. There's no need to be using tons of corn for energy. There are alternative crops for it. It's just raising prices for everybody.

I watched a show recently on "switchgrass" that yield a lot more biomass per acre than corn. I had never heard of the stuff, but it was interesting.

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html

[Doggcow]

It sucks. We can get the same stuff from industrial hemp, the plant grows faster, on land crops like corn cant even get a foothold in, and takes almost no irrigation or fertilization. There's no need to be using tons of corn for energy. There are alternative crops for it. It's just raising prices for everybody.

Has anyone actually implemented this anywhere? If someone effectively implemented this (likely in another country) it might open peoples eyes.

[Rohirrim]

The entire ethanol program is a boondoggle that does the environment no good at all. It's driving red meat prices beyond the reach of many Americans. It's only benefit is that it pumps mega billions into the pockets of agribusiness CEOs who pay the politicians who keep it going. Ethanol is just one more Washington feedbag.

[RaiderH8r]

The entire ethanol program is a boondoggle that does the environment no good at all. It's driving red meat prices beyond the reach of many Americans. It's only benefit is that it pumps mega billions into the pockets of agribusiness CEOs who pay the politicians who keep it going. Ethanol is just one more Washington feedbag.

Agreed.

Bush talked about switchgrass back in 2004 (ish?) and was mocked. Switchgrass is a better candidate and university researchers have created an enzyme that converts it with a high degree of efficiency. Problem is all those farmers who have yanked crops in favor of corn so that's what is being pushed. And the stuff you said. Little makes me laugh more than a farmer bitching about welfare.

I'm pushing for mining the moon for Helium-3. Why not? Physicists have known for 40 plus years that H3 can be used in a fusion reaction with no emissions to create energy. The problem has been that H3 is scarce on earth. The sun emits massive amounts of H3 that is pushed around the earth by magnetism and ozone, the moon has no such problem. Moon rocks brought back from Apollo missions have yielded high relative amounts of H3. Also the US owns the moon, we got there first, it's ours. :) We'll be the Saudi Arabia of H3 and rule the emissions free world. Muaaahaaahaa haaaa!

[BroncoBuff]

H3! H3! H3!

[Los Broncos]

I don't drink beer in the off season.

[Rohirrim]

Agreed.

Bush talked about switchgrass back in 2004 (ish?) and was mocked. Switchgrass is a better candidate and university researchers have created an enzyme that converts it with a high degree of efficiency. Problem is all those farmers who have yanked crops in favor of corn so that's what is being pushed. And the stuff you said. Little makes me laugh more than a farmer b****ing about welfare.

I'm pushing for mining the moon for Helium-3. Why not? Physicists have known for 40 plus years that H3 can be used in a fusion reaction with no emissions to create energy. The problem has been that H3 is scarce on earth. The sun emits massive amounts of H3 that is pushed around the earth by magnetism and ozone, the moon has no such problem. Moon rocks brought back from Apollo missions have yielded high relative amounts of H3. Also the US owns the moon, we got there first, it's ours. :) We'll be the Saudi Arabia of H3 and rule the emissions free world. Muaaahaaahaa haaaa!

Plus, with the water crisis building in the West, we just flat don't have the water to irrigate all that corn. There's nothing stupider than the **** that comes out of Washington.

[Arkie]

A lot of farmers switched from cotton to corn, so expect your underwear and socks to go up.

[Los Broncos]

A lot of farmers switched from cotton to corn, so expect your underwear and socks to go up.

Dam, i wear the comfort waisteline band.

[elsid13]

Were the **** is Congress when you actual need those SOBs. This is freaking un ****ing believable.

****, **** **** **** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BroncoBuff]

Bought and paid for, sid.

[elsid13]

Screw the enviroment. I cutting down ****ing trees until they release my beer!

[Borks147]

Has anyone actually implemented this anywhere? If someone effectively implemented this (likely in another country) it might open peoples eyes.

my family used to be big time industrial hemp growers back in the day. as soon as nylon hit the market, the uses for hemp dwindled to insignificance. but it truly is a wonder-plant

[Paladin]

Let's turn hemp into a biofuel. (not kidding here.) The major knock on Ethanol is that it consumes more energy to produce than it actually produces. So, until Fuel cells actually get engineered right ( and I read where a group in Australia developed a hydrogen fuel "pump" that would fit in a small corner of the garage), hemp could make a comeback.

Also, I read where some folks actually turned garbage into fuel, and the cost of the fuel at the "pump" would be about a $1 a gal leaving sufficient reserves in the pockets for the requisite beer. I think GMC was pushing the industry at the Auto show in Detroit. There are some alternatives out there, but the oil and gas & fossil fuel people just don't want to give up yet. I think the family farmers are not a problem, The Corporate Farms are another story. Most of the farming acreage in the US is now owned by corporate interests. There are "farmers" in Manhattan collecting farm subsidy check......

[theAPAOps5]

Whats funny is with the sudden boom of Ethanol all sorts of plants opened up to convert corn to fuel. Now that the media glare has dimmed the plants are starting to struggle. Once the Feds money stops you are going to see a lot of people lose their shirt.

Eventually things will even out and there is going to be a huge surplus in corn. But by then a steak will be as valuable as gold.

[CBF1]

Looks like CBF1 will have to drink more scotch and Tequlia :)

[theAPAOps5]

Looks like CBF1 will have to drink more scotch and Tequlia :)

Vodka, potatoes have yet to be shown any use except for sopping up butter, gravy, and making a clear liquid that takes all your troubles away for a few hours.

[DHallblows]

Vodka, potatoes have yet to be shown any use except for sopping up butter, gravy, and making a clear liquid that takes all your troubles away for a few hours.

Play your cards right, and you can change "hours" to "days"...

[TallyBronco]

Another side-effect: ethanol is driving inflation up in the food sector. This is what happens when you let the morons on Capitol Hill tinker with the economy.

Ethanol is a heavily subsidized by the federal government. Cheaper ethanol is available from countries like Brazil, but the federal government levies a huge import tax on those supplies.

American farmers should be embarrassed. Their special interest groups continue to put themselves above the health of the country as a whole. And YOUR congressman soaks it up.

[~Crash~]

Were the **** is Congress when you actual need those SOBs. This is freaking un ****ing believable.

****, **** **** **** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

all running for president :pimp:

[~Crash~]

Methane is the only cheap fuel that is the most abundant energy on earth and would be very easy to work in our systems already up and running . The ocean floor is full of methane and is what most think caused the last ice age when the methane exploded causing poison gas and causing huge tsunami there was a lot more in this but here is the deal we are building up on methane and we are about to pop that champaign cork again because the earth is heating . Well I guess we need to go to methane to save the earths suplys of beer !

[~Crash~]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3775181.stm

methane storys

http://www.chemsoc.org/chembytes/ezine/2002/corfield_may02.htm

[Rohirrim]

I miss Mock. He'd be all over this thread.

[~Crash~]

2. Abundant energy
The main advantage of methane hydrate as an energy source is its enormous abundance. Estimates of the amount of methane hydrate available onshore and offshore in the US alone range between 3172 x 1012m3 and 19,145 x 1012m3. This would provide enough energy to fuel the US for at least the next 350 years. In contrast the conventional gas resources of the US are estimated at only 40 x 1012m3.

The estimate of worldwide methane hydrate reserves is 11 x 1019m3. Compare this with the 142 x 1012m3 of the world's estimated conventional gas reserves. Figures from the US Department of Energy suggest that the US will continue to increase its demand for natural gas into the 21st century especially as it becomes more in demand as a transport fuel. If only one per cent of US reserves of methane hydrate could be made available then the US would more than double its reserves of natural gas. Other strengths of methane hydrate are its comparative cleanliness (especially in the light of concerns about nuclear fuels) and its ease of transportation within the existing gas pipe work infrastructure once it has been extracted.

However, extracting methane hydrate from the continental shelf is currently a major technical problem. Once removed from its stability field it will spontaneously decompose and so extracting it in situ and in a controlled fashion may be necessary. Ideas being considered include the use of hot water or steam flooding to decompose the hydrate, or by using methods that dissociate the gas by reducing reservoir pressure. Another possibility is injecting chemicals to decrease the stability of the hydrate lattice.

Finally there are risks, large and small, concerning the recovery of methane hydrates. The climatic consequences have already been touched on, but on a more local scale it is now clear that current drilling methods generate enough heat to decompose surrounding hydrates. This can lead to loss of well control or even induce slope instability that could capsize the rig. Methane hydrates have also long been known as a menace in gas lines, potentially blocking the flow of gas.

[~Crash~]

There is no questioning either the enormous energy potential of methane hydrates (Box 2). With confidence in nuclear power plummeting and environmental concerns about conventional oil and gas extraction growing daily, methane hydrates offer a comparatively cheap and easy form of new energy. But how is it to be extracted? Some observers think that the approach will be similar to that used to recover petroleum from difficult sites; steam or hot water could be pumped down a drill hole to melt the hydrate and the resulting methane gas would then be collected from another drill hole. The gas could then be piped ashore.

The problem is that dissociating methane out at sea could easily destabilise the continental shelf supporting the rig - not to mention the larger scale consequences of a possible methane hydrate 'event cascade' as documented by Bains and coworkers. A better approach may involve retrieving the hydrate intact and then liquefying it on ships or drilling platforms. One suggestion is to burn the hydrate to form hydrogen and carbon monoxide and then use a catalyst to convert the mixture into a liquid hydrocarbon, which could be readily transported by ship. The downside here is a 35 per cent loss of energy. A reciprocal approach is also being considered. Roger Sassen of Texas A&M University envisages production on the ocean floor, where extracted methane is recombined with water to form a new hydrate uncontaminated by mud and rock. Submersibles could then tow the hydrate in special storage tanks to shallower areas where it could be more safely decomposed into water and fuel.

Whatever the eventual extraction method it is clear that methane hydrate could be a fuel of the future

[~Crash~]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40232000/jpg/_40232647_meth_geomar_203.jpg

pretty cool !:thanku:

[BroncoBuff]

That's some fascinating stuff. And just like that sand-oil in Canada - which is also immensely abundant - it's the extraction that is so difficult.

"Destabilizing the continental shelf." That sounds kinda dangerous ... Uhh

[~Crash~]

That's some fascinating stuff. And just like that sand-oil in Canada - which is also immensely abundant - it's the extraction that is so difficult.

"Destabilizing the continental shelf." That sounds kinda dangerous ... Uhh

if we ran out of fuel I bet they would find away in oh a week how to get it out :wiggle: they dont because of the big money involed

[elsid13]

That's some fascinating stuff. And just like that sand-oil in Canada - which is also immensely abundant - it's the extraction that is so difficult.

"Destabilizing the continental shelf." That sounds kinda dangerous ... Uhh

Dangerous is this American male if he doesn't get his beer at reasonable price.

[mhgaffney]

In case you haven't heard - the new energy bill is another Bush boondogle.

It takes more energy to produce the corn and make the ethanol than we get out of the ethanol. Does this make sense? Duh...It does to GW.

But of course our nucular Prez is an oil man and can't even pronounce the words "solar" , "hydrogen" , "tidal", not to mention "cold fusion"

too bad for us.

[~Crash~]

In case you haven't heard - the new energy bill is another Bush boondogle.

It takes more energy to produce the corn and make the ethanol than we get out of the ethanol. Does this make sense? Duh...It does to GW.

But of course our nucular Prez is an oil man and can't even pronounce the words "solar" , "hydrogen" , "tidal", not to mention "cold fusion"

too bad for us.

LOL you guy are always making things way to hard no party is doing crap . stop with the stupid BS both partys are greased with oil money .

[~Crash~]

Destabilizing the continental shelf." That sounds kinda dangerous ...

that means it could blow yep! but guess what if we take it away it will not blow and sooner or later it will blow up if we do nothing lava will set it off sooner or later I say make me warm and tell the crazy aholes in the middle east and in south america to kiss my hinny .

[RaiderH8r]

The Japanese are planning a pilot project to extract methane hydrate off their coast. This was thought to be 20 years away, leave it to the Japanese. There are enormous, I can't stress enormous enough, reserves of methane hydrate all around the US and other countries. It would be an amazing resource if developed properly.

The new energy bill was strictly a production of Nancy Pelosi so if gaff has a problem with it he can air it out to her.

H3 is a real possibility but would be very expensive so a lot needs to be done to get to the point of making that a reality.

[RaiderH8r]

And the logic that follows is we should support the presidential candidate that is most willing to turn alternate-energy source research into an "Apollo Project."

But there are always unintended consequences ... TJ started a thread saying the US dollar will die if global oil demand des. I'm not on board with that entirely, but it does point up the conflicting interests, and potential for unintended consequences ...

PERFECT EXAMPLE of Unintended Consequences: "Charlie Wilson's War" migh've ended the Cold War, but it also caused 9/11. ... think about it hmmm...

My biggest gripe with Nixon isn't Watergate, it was that he scrapped the Apollo project. Who knows where the US would be with the R&D that would have gone into making manned moon missions safer and more cost effective. But that's me, I'm a Star Wars geek.

The US dollar does benefit tremendously from the world oil market. Change of this sort can be a very scary thing. However, there is nothing, no way, and no how to indicate that global demand for oil and natural gas is going to dry up in the next 30 years. There is no on/off switch, it won't happen over night. Consider where undeveloped nations currently sit in terms of industry and power consumption. They have a lot of catching up to do and the traditional fossil fuels are the way they'll do it, if the price is right. Developed nations moving to a more diversified energy production portfolio will aid in at least stabilizing fossil fuel price in the short term, i.e. 20 years. We are on the edge of some significant technological breakthroughs in this arena. The problem, and my anger, with ethanol is that it is clearly a case of the federal government picking a subsidized winner. This will come at the expense of other technologies and methods that could produce more energy, more efficiently, and at a lower cost than ethanol. Federal grants should be encouraged, directed federal spending at a perceived "cure all", as ethanol was bought by many, will, in hindsight, prove to be a considerable hinderance in achieving the overall goals of an energy efficient, and clean market.

Vote RaiderH8r in '08. :approve:

I've given up on finding out which American caused 9/11, I've decided to blame fundy Islam. They picked the fight, they want to die for their cause and I think it is a moral imperative that the US oblige them in that regard.

[BroncoBuff]

The Japanese are planning a pilot project to extract methane hydrate off their coast. This was thought to be 20 years away, leave it to the Japanese. There are enormous, I can't stress enormous enough, reserves of methane hydrate all around the US and other countries. It would be an amazing resource if developed properly.
And the logic that follows is we should support the presidential candidate that has the biggest, most inspiring vision for turning alternate-energy research into a national "Apollo Project." But remember - there are always unintended consequences ... TJ started a thread saying the US dollar will die if global oil demand dies (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=60334). I'm not on board with that entirely, but it does point up the conflicting interests, and potential for unintended consequences ...


PERFECT EXAMPLE of Unintended Consequences:

"Charlie Wilson's War" might have ended the Cold War, but it also caused 9/11.


... think about it hmmm...

[BroncoBuff]

My biggest gripe with Nixon isn't Watergate, it was that he scrapped the Apollo project. Who knows where the US would be with the R&D that would have gone into making manned moon missions safer and more cost effective. But that's me, I'm a Star Wars geek.

The US dollar does benefit tremendously from the world oil market. Change of this sort can be a very scary thing. However, there is nothing, no way, and no how to indicate that global demand for oil and natural gas is going to dry up in the next 30 years. There is no on/off switch, it won't happen over night. Consider where undeveloped nations currently sit in terms of industry and power consumption. They have a lot of catching up to do and the traditional fossil fuels are the way they'll do it, if the price is right. Developed nations moving to a more diversified energy production portfolio will aid in at least stabilizing fossil fuel price in the short term, i.e. 20 years. We are on the edge of some significant technological breakthroughs in this arena.

Vote RaiderH8r in '08. :approve:
That's much of what I said in response to TJ's thread ...


Another question re ethanol: What would Pancho Duque think?