Bottom line, where do we go from here?

[bpc]

From a previous tirade...

"Pathetic. No heart, gutless. I've never been more disappointed to be a fan... when a team refuses to get up and fight when they are called out repeatedly as bi!ches, pu$$ies, frauds... that lights me on fire! Cutler was the only guy out there willing to fight. Damn that makes me angry. DO SOMETHING! GET MAD! FIGHT BACK!

Some of these guys got to go. Screw it, rebuild. Get a different character to this team. Cut a lot of this dead weight from the roster and lets move in a different direction with some players that have heart and are willing to fight. 1/2 this roster is interested in collecting their paycheck and then going home

Shanahan, you have free reign to make over this roster anyway you want. If that means we have to go through a two or three year rebuilding period than do so. Get some of these heartless, gutless, soulless bastards out of here and out of the orange and blue that represents my team, the Broncos and the city of Denver.

These colors are our flags... like the good ol' red, white, and blue that we all salute each day living in America. What 2/3's of this roster did yesterday equates to taking that flag and throwing it on the ground and stepping on it.

With that being said, where do we go from here as a team and organization?

This is only my interpretation but these are the moves I would make:

Start over. We have a lot of high money, low effort players on this team that aren't holding their weight. I've seen enough from these guys to know who needs to stay and go. We are in for a little bit of rebuilding but...

Boom, Matt Lepsis, Erik Pears, Ben Hamilton, Travis Henry, and Ian Gold are all gone. I know, that much is a given right?

Next step, recommitt to building up the talent on the offensive line. We need two starting quality players at OT. Since we just cut Lepsis and Pears out right, we need to turn our attention to drafting at least one or two different prospects here. Everybody knows i've been pro-OT in round 1 for a long time. For good measure we could snap up a talented player like Tony Hills in round 4. Low pick, high upside. In round 1, we need an eraser... I like Jeff Otah, Phil Loadholt or Ryan Clady. Make one of them happen for this team. No excuses, we should be selecting around #9 in this years draft supposing Cincy beats Miami next week and they should. Explore trading back to see if we can get a good offensive tackle that can pass block. I'll stand pat though if it means i'm going to get a great player. We'll assume in this thread that Dallas is moving up for McFadden, trades us the 21st and 31st selections overall.

In the offseason, offer Jordan Gross a contract to be our right tackle. He's young, he can play the run/pass equally efficient. He also doesn't get his QB's killed so he's an improvement. This is the NFL, its going to take $$$$ to sign these guys so don't be surprised when he gets a good scratch.

While we're at it, add some competition to the mix on the interior line. Renegotiate Nalen, hopefully he goes along with it because I would rather not cut him... I would rather have him around because he is a pretty good pass protector. Myers, Kuper, and Holland are our guards but we should try to bring in more talent to challenge them as well.

OUR GOAL on the OLINE is to become a more effective pass blocking unit. Holland switches to LG, Kuper switches to RG and Myers competes at Center and guard. For good measure we draft Robert Felton in the 4th round.

OL now looks like Otah, Holland, Nalen, Kuper, Gross as the starters. Reserves are Myers, Felton, Hills, and Harris. (BTW, I don't think Harris will be a player for us. I just thought I would reiterate that.) This unit should have more talent, size, speed, and ability to pass block.

At WR I'm tempted to add a deep threat through the draft. Forget it. Word out of NY is that Laverneus Coles might be released by the Jets. Find a way for him to fit in Denver with a cap friendly deal. He can come in and stretch the defense. I'm fine keeping Javon for the next year. I have a feeling his knee will come back (fingers crossed more than anything) and Brandon Marshall shall be the #1 WR on this team anyways.

We have Graham and Scheffler at TE... both great options for this offense. Those guys will help us win. If Daniel Graham's injury showed us anything, we need more players here.

With Henry being gone we are counting on Young and Hall a little too much. I like both players, not sold completely on either. I really like Chris Johnson but we have other needs that need to be addressed at this point and time... look up Fred Taylor, Jamal Lewis and TJ Duckett... offer them minimum deals, see who bites on it to play the hammer for our offense. I imagine it would be Duckett even though I would love to see any of these backs in Denver.

I was a huge fan of Bill Bates when he got here... heard about the defense, saw Green Bay a bunch of times this year... I was excited. Even through the blowouts and multiple 100 yd rushers in the middle of the season, I stood by him.

I just can't anymore and I'll tell you why... It has more to do with what is out there vs. Bates. He has disappointed me, the team more so than him. There is only one way we are ever going to play the 3-4 effectively on offense. If you can't beat them, JOIN THEM!

With Bill Parcells taking over Miami, Dom Capers is out as a Dolphin and IN as the Broncos Associate Head Coach/Defensive Coordinator.

Boom, instantly that porous 4-3 turns into a 3-4 that can rush the passer and make use of our DB's.

Let me tell you how we are going to do this.

With the #9 pick traded, we picked up the 21st selection (Jeff Otah - OT), and the 31st selection. We also hold the 41st selection in the 2nd round.

We need MLB's so in comes Beau Bell with the 31st selection to pair up with DJ Williams at MLB. At OLB we are going to use Dumervil and Jarvis Moss, both edge guys who can rush the passer.

Corey Williams is still a priority as is signing a nose tackle guy like Randy Starks. We actually are more well-suited for this defense then we think. I think guys like Tim Crowder, Alvin McKinley, Marcus Thomas, Kenny Peterson, and Steven Harris all fit well in this role, especially after Bill Bates was the DC... the principles of his 4-3 vs. a 3-4 are not that much different. You have to control the man in front of you, keep them off the LB's.

For good measure with the 41st selection in the 2nd round we are going to draft Shawn Crable, just in case Jarvis Moss continues to have injury concerns. He leads the nation in tackles for loss with 26.5.

[bpc]

Defense would line up like:

DT- Corey Williams, Tim Crowder
NT- Randy Starks, Kenny Peterson, Steven Harris
DT- Marcus Thomas, Alvin McKinley
RO-LB- Elvis Dumervil, Shawn Crable
MLB - DJ Williams, Nate Webster
MLB - Beau Bell, Jamie Winborn, Louis Green
LO-LB- Jarvis Moss, Shawn Crable
RCB- Champ Bailey, Karl Paymah
LCB- Dre Bly, Dominique Foxworth
FS- Hamza Abdullah, Steve Cargile
SS- John Lynch, Nick Ferguson

[Northman]

For the most part it looks good. I would still like to add something to the Safety position than what we have.

[bpc]

Offense would line up like:

QB: Jay Cutler, Patrick Ramsey
HB: Selvin Young, TJ Duckett, Andre Hall, Mike Bell
FB: Cecil Sapp, Owen Schmidt
WR: Brandon Marshall, Javon Walker, Brandon Stokely, Glenn Martinez, Lance Leggett,
TE: Daniel Graham, Tony Scheffler,
LT: Jeff Otah, Ryan Harris
LG: Montrae Holland, Robert Felton
C: Tom Nalen, Chris Myers
RG: Chris Kuper, Chris Myers
RT: Jordan Gross, Tony Hills

[Florida_Bronco]

You will never see a Shanahan coached team run a 3-4 as a base defense, so that can be scraped. I also think you're overreacting about the lack of heart on this team. We have some players who aren't showing much heart, but it's not the 2/3 you say it is.

This team is going to be OK. We definetly need some help at OT BUT Lepsis may very well bounce back next year and give us a year or two to groom his replacement and we have Harris who the team is very high on at RT.

We need help at DT. I'm sure Thomas will have a good year next year, but we need to sign a FA to play next to him. Obviously we could draft a guy too, but rookie D-linemen usually don't provide an instant impact. We have plenty of talent at defensive end that should come around next year.

I'm fairly comfortable with our linebacker situation, as Webster's play has improved and Winborn has shown flashes. I'm also comfortable with the defensive backs.

So we need help at offensive and defensive tackle and a punter. Shouldn't be too hard to fix.

[FrontRowSeat1]

Major rebuild in order but unlikely. The love affair with Shanny will continue and ownership will not make him go away. Next year will look like this one only Champ will grow older and he will become slowly just another corner while the defence stagnates. No one in Denver Head Office will move to make a change as long as the cash keeps rolling in.

Like it or not in my opinion if you want to see the future for our team look at the Chiefs...they have a year or two jump on us but we are on same path.

[Broncoman13]

Shanahan will never go along with a 3-4 defense... other than that, GREAT IDEA!

[Florida_Bronco]

Major rebuild in order but unlikely. The love affair with Shanny will continue and ownership will not make him go away. Next year will look like this one only Champ will grow older and he will become slowly just another corner while the defence stagnates. No one in Denver Head Office will move to make a change as long as the cash keeps rolling in.

Like it or not in my opinion if you want to see the future for our team look at the Chiefs...they have a year or two jump on us but we are on same path.

Thats just crazy. This has been an amazingly tough year with losing D-Will and Nash, the injuries and the Travis Henry situation. We have a very talented core with a few holes that need to be plugged.

Fear not, we will have another strong draft and will start to feel the effects of the solid offseasons we have put together.

[Broncoman13]

Major rebuild in order but unlikely. The love affair with Shanny will continue and ownership will not make him go away. Next year will look like this one only Champ will grow older and he will become slowly just another corner while the defence stagnates. No one in Denver Head Office will move to make a change as long as the cash keeps rolling in.

Like it or not in my opinion if you want to see the future for our team look at the Chiefs...they have a year or two jump on us but we are on same path.

Except we have a jump on them at OL, QB, WR, TE, and as sorry as our DT's have been, they're better than KC's! They have the jump on us at RB, Punter, and for the time being, DE.

[FrontRowSeat1]

Id bet two years ago, the average Chiefs fan would react the same way. This bunch better wake up. The leadership thinking that there are "just a few holes" will lead downhill the prospects for this team as Shanny continues to ignore reality and his assistants bail.

[SoCalBronco]

From a previous tirade...

"Pathetic. No heart, gutless. I've never been more disappointed to be a fan... when a team refuses to get up and fight when they are called out repeatedly as bi!ches, pu$$ies, frauds... that lights me on fire! Cutler was the only guy out there willing to fight. Damn that makes me angry. DO SOMETHING! GET MAD! FIGHT BACK!

Some of these guys got to go. Screw it, rebuild. Get a different character to this team. Cut a lot of this dead weight from the roster and lets move in a different direction with some players that have heart and are willing to fight. 1/2 this roster is interested in collecting their paycheck and then going home

Shanahan, you have free reign to make over this roster anyway you want. If that means we have to go through a two or three year rebuilding period than do so. Get some of these heartless, gutless, soulless bastards out of here and out of the orange and blue that represents my team, the Broncos and the city of Denver.

These colors are our flags... like the good ol' red, white, and blue that we all salute each day living in America. What 2/3's of this roster did yesterday equates to taking that flag and throwing it on the ground and stepping on it.

With that being said, where do we go from here as a team and organization?

This is only my interpretation but these are the moves I would make:

Start over. We have a lot of high money, low effort players on this team that aren't holding their weight. I've seen enough from these guys to know who needs to stay and go. We are in for a little bit of rebuilding but...

Boom, Matt Lepsis, Erik Pears, Ben Hamilton, Travis Henry, and Ian Gold are all gone. I know, that much is a given right?

Next step, recommitt to building up the talent on the offensive line. We need two starting quality players at OT. Since we just cut Lepsis and Pears out right, we need to turn our attention to drafting at least one or two different prospects here. Everybody knows i've been pro-OT in round 1 for a long time. For good measure we could snap up a talented player like Tony Hills in round 4. Low pick, high upside. In round 1, we need an eraser... I like Jeff Otah, Phil Loadholt or Ryan Clady. Make one of them happen for this team. No excuses, we should be selecting around #9 in this years draft supposing Cincy beats Miami next week and they should. Explore trading back to see if we can get a good offensive tackle that can pass block. I'll stand pat though if it means i'm going to get a great player. We'll assume in this thread that Dallas is moving up for McFadden, trades us the 21st and 31st selections overall.

In the offseason, offer Jordan Gross a contract to be our right tackle. He's young, he can play the run/pass equally efficient. He also doesn't get his QB's killed so he's an improvement. This is the NFL, its going to take $$$$ to sign these guys so don't be surprised when he gets a good scratch.

While we're at it, add some competition to the mix on the interior line. Renegotiate Nalen, hopefully he goes along with it because I would rather not cut him... I would rather have him around because he is a pretty good pass protector. Myers, Kuper, and Holland are our guards but we should try to bring in more talent to challenge them as well.

OUR GOAL on the OLINE is to become a more effective pass blocking unit. Holland switches to LG, Kuper switches to RG and Myers competes at Center and guard. For good measure we draft Robert Felton in the 4th round.

OL now looks like Otah, Holland, Nalen, Kuper, Gross as the starters. Reserves are Myers, Felton, Hills, and Harris. (BTW, I don't think Harris will be a player for us. I just thought I would reiterate that.) This unit should have more talent, size, speed, and ability to pass block.

At WR I'm tempted to add a deep threat through the draft. Forget it. Word out of NY is that Laverneus Coles might be released by the Jets. Find a way for him to fit in Denver with a cap friendly deal. He can come in and stretch the defense. I'm fine keeping Javon for the next year. I have a feeling his knee will come back (fingers crossed more than anything) and Brandon Marshall shall be the #1 WR on this team anyways.

We have Graham and Scheffler at TE... both great options for this offense. Those guys will help us win. If Daniel Graham's injury showed us anything, we need more players here.

With Henry being gone we are counting on Young and Hall a little too much. I like both players, not sold completely on either. I really like Chris Johnson but we have other needs that need to be addressed at this point and time... look up Fred Taylor, Jamal Lewis and TJ Duckett... offer them minimum deals, see who bites on it to play the hammer for our offense. I imagine it would be Duckett even though I would love to see any of these backs in Denver.

I was a huge fan of Bill Bates when he got here... heard about the defense, saw Green Bay a bunch of times this year... I was excited. Even through the blowouts and multiple 100 yd rushers in the middle of the season, I stood by him.

I just can't anymore and I'll tell you why... It has more to do with what is out there vs. Bates. He has disappointed me, the team more so than him. There is only one way we are ever going to play the 3-4 effectively on offense. If you can't beat them, JOIN THEM!

With Bill Parcells taking over Miami, Dom Capers is out as a Dolphin and IN as the Broncos Associate Head Coach/Defensive Coordinator.

Boom, instantly that porous 4-3 turns into a 3-4 that can rush the passer and make use of our DB's.

Let me tell you how we are going to do this.

With the #9 pick traded, we picked up the 21st selection (Jeff Otah - OT), and the 31st selection. We also hold the 41st selection in the 2nd round.

We need MLB's so in comes Beau Bell with the 31st selection to pair up with DJ Williams at MLB. At OLB we are going to use Dumervil and Jarvis Moss, both edge guys who can rush the passer.

Corey Williams is still a priority as is signing a nose tackle guy like Randy Starks. We actually are more well-suited for this defense then we think. I think guys like Tim Crowder, Alvin McKinley, Marcus Thomas, Kenny Peterson, and Steven Harris all fit well in this role, especially after Bill Bates was the DC... the principles of his 4-3 vs. a 3-4 are not that much different. You have to control the man in front of you, keep them off the LB's.

For good measure with the 41st selection in the 2nd round we are going to draft Shawn Crable, just in case Jarvis Moss continues to have injury concerns. He leads the nation in tackles for loss with 26.5.

Good thoughts, Chris, I want to first address the bolded part (the part I bolded in blue, that is the players you wanted to just cut), though. It's not financially feasible to simply get rid of those players you listed. For some of them, its ok, like Gold for example, since we won't take much of a hit there. You can't get rid of Henry, because that's 12m guaranteed that will hit the cap either all at once or over two years (only one year of this sum has been prorated, so its more like a 10m hit, either at once or spread out, just not wise, we are stuck with him), it's just too costly in either case really. The same is also probably true of Lepsis because he recently got a high priced extension, you can't cut him, but maybe we can get him to take a reduction of his base salary, IMO, it just won't work to blow all the space we finally have for next summer taking cap accelerations just because we want to get rid of guys. I see no reason to cut Pears either. That's not to say I want him starting anymore at RT, ofcourse not, but he's making peanuts, there's no harm in keeping him as a backup OT, maybe he'll regain his 2006 form. Even if he doesn't there are no savings there to be made. Hamilton is more of a medical issue than anything, if he is good to go, I want him back. I don't think his salary is prohibitive, anyway. If he's healthy, Ben can give us probably another 3 more good years either at LG or C. I know we are all angry but we have to be pragmatic too.

I like the Shawn Crable idea...albeit not the 3-4 one. Crable is big enough to play Sam in the 4-3, yet athletic enough to run with people too. He would be a good selection in Round 2 for the 4-3 if we keep it as I'm sure we will. Shanahan is simply a 4-3 guy. It is rather difficult to radically change the entire concept of the front 7 like that in one offseason and try to plug in all the new 3-4 parts and hope all is swell that fast. The 4-3 is not the problem, nor is the particular scheme that Bates prefers (4-3 Over). He just needs people who fit his style. Let him have that oppurtunity.

[Punisher]

I just know theres gonna be alot of moves this offseason on the D-line and O-line

[yavoon]

Good thoughts, Chris, I want to first address the bolded part (the part I bolded in blue, that is the players you wanted to just cut), though. It's not financially feasible to simply get rid of those players you listed. For some of them, its ok, like Gold for example, since we won't take much of a hit there. You can't get rid of Henry, because that's 12m guaranteed that will hit the cap either all at once or over two years (only one year of this sum has been prorated, so its more like a 10m hit, either at once or spread out, just not wise, we are stuck with him), it's just too costly in either case really. The same is also probably true of Lepsis because he recently got a high priced extension, you can't cut him, but maybe we can get him to take a reduction of his base salary, IMO, it just won't work to blow all the space we finally have for next summer taking cap accelerations just because we want to get rid of guys. I see no reason to cut Pears either. That's not to say I want him starting anymore at RT, ofcourse not, but he's making peanuts, there's no harm in keeping him as a backup OT, maybe he'll regain his 2006 form? Even if he doesn't there are no savings there to be made. Hamilton is more of a medical issue than anything, if he is good to go, I want him back. I don't think his salary is prohibitive, anyway. If he's healthy, Ben can give us probably another 3 more good years either at LG or C. I know we are all angry but we have to be pragmatic too.

I like the Shawn Crable idea...albeit not the 3-4 one. Crable is big enough to play Sam in the 4-3, yet athletic enough to run with people too. He would be a good selection in Round 2 for the 4-3 if we keep it as I'm sure we will. Shanahan is simply a 4-3 guy. It is rather difficult to radically change the entire concept of the front 7 like that in one offseason and try to plug in all the new 3-4 parts and hope all is swell that fast. The 4-3 is not the problem, nor is the particular scheme that Bates prefers (4-3 Over). He just needs people who fit his style. Let him have that oppurtunity.

I love how ppl still have the "we can't go 3-4 because its too much turnover" then in the next thread "you have to let bates turnover the entire front 7 to fit his scheme." its hilarious. BATES HAS ALREADY RAPED THE FRONT 7, look at the cuts, look at the cuts after the cuts. look at the position switches.

[Punisher]

I love how ppl still have the "we can't go 3-4 because its too much turnover" then in the next thread "you have to let bates turnover the entire front 7 to fit his scheme." its hilarious. BATES HAS ALREADY RAPED THE FRONT 7, look at the cuts, look at the cuts after the cuts. look at the position switches.

I say get rid of bates Hire Jim Johnson

[SoCalBronco]

I love how ppl still have the "we can't go 3-4 because its too much turnover" then in the next thread "you have to let bates turnover the entire front 7 to fit his scheme." its hilarious. BATES HAS ALREADY RAPED THE FRONT 7, look at the cuts, look at the cuts after the cuts. look at the position switches.

He hasn't "raped" the front 7, yavoon. The only big mistake he made in terms of getting rid of someone useful was Warren. The guys he brought in and let go, were low-risk, low-cost guys. Sam Adams (1 yr. deal), Kennedy (6th rounder...although I love my 6th rounders :) ). Bates has not hurt the front seven but for Warren. To compare what he would require vs. a whole switch to the 3-4 is ridiculous. He already has his 3 tech DT, now he just needs his 1 tech. His ends are fine, they'll grow and develop, we've already made the investment there for our 4-3 DEs. At least one LB is needed. So he does not need to "turnover the entire front 7", in reality it is adding one DT and either 1 or 2 LBs. That's basically it. In a 3-4, you would need to do the following:
a. 3-4 NT
b. Two 3-4 DEs (I suppose Crowder might be able to fill in one of the roles, but I do not like pigeonholing him like that, I think he is a better fit as a 4-3 strongside end)
c. Another 3-4 ILB.
d. Marcus Thomas gets wasted and now has no place. He's a 4-3 DT, and will be a good one at that. Why do we constantly want to fit square pegs into round holes? It's getting annoying. We need to stop that ****.

I'd rather have Bates just make the two additions (or three) required for his own scheme then do the above. I'm pretty sure he didn't get dumb overnight, he's been very successful in other places. It's also unfair. Every Shanahan DC has had at least two years to get things into sync.

[yavoon]

He hasn't "raped" the front 7, yavoon. The only big mistake he made in terms of getting rid of someone useful was Warren. The guys he brought in and let go, were low-risk, low-cost guys. Sam Adams (1 yr. deal), Kennedy (6th rounder...although I love my 6th rounders :) ). Bates has not hurt the front seven but for Warren. To compare what he would require vs. a whole switch to the 3-4 is ridiculous. He already has his 3 tech DT, now he just needs his 1 tech. His ends are fine, they'll grow and develop, we've already made the investment there for our 4-3 DEs. At least one LB is needed. So he does not need to "turnover the entire front 7", in reality it is adding one DT and either 1 or 2 LBs. That's basically it. In a 3-4, you would need to do the following:
a. 3-4 NT
b. Two 3-4 DEs (I suppose Crowder might be able to fill in one of the roles, but I do not like pigeonholing him like that, I think he is a better fit as a 4-3 strongside end)
c. Another 3-4 ILB.
d. Marcus Thomas gets wasted and now has no place. He's a 4-3 DT, and will be a good one at that. Why do we constantly want to fit square pegs into round holes? It's getting annoying. We need to stop that ****.

I'd rather have Bates just make the two additions (or three) required for his own scheme then do the above. I'm pretty sure he didn't get dumb overnight, he's been very successful in other places. It's also unfair. Every Shanahan DC has had at least two years to get things into sync.

they weren't low cost in that they annhilated an entire year of the franchise. even cheap decisions aren't throw aways, amon gordon should be a welcomer at walmart, not in the NFL. but we weren't aware of that were we?

and btw bates wants an NT that would be exactly what u'd want in a 3-4. infact in many ways his personnel is very similar to a 3-4. if u look in miami he had taylor who is a light in ass end, then he had an NT and then two OTHER big lineman. thats 3 big 1 small and 3 linebackers.

face it, by the time we're done w/ bates system it will have been MASSIVE turnover. and ppl will still blithely hate on the 3-4 for the exact same thing they are now vigorously defending bates for.

[Gcver2ver3]

I've been screaming for us to convert to a 3-4 defense for years....

Everytime I've brought up on the board, fellow members would tell me it's not a good idea or how we'd have to turnover too many players....

i don't think it'll happen but i certainly hope it does...

[yavoon]

I've been screaming for us to convert to a 3-4 defense for years....

Everytime I've brought up on the board, fellow members would tell me it's not a good idea or how we'd have to turnover too many players....

i don't think it'll happen but i certainly hope it does...

of course now those same ppl are defending bates' massive turnover.

[SoCalBronco]

Offense would line up like:

QB: Jay Cutler, Patrick Ramsey
HB: Selvin Young, TJ Duckett, Andre Hall, Mike Bell
FB: Cecil Sapp, Owen Schmidt
WR: Brandon Marshall, Javon Walker, Brandon Stokely, Glenn Martinez, Lance Leggett,
TE: Daniel Graham, Tony Scheffler,
LT: Jeff Otah, Ryan Harris
LG: Montrae Holland, Robert Felton
C: Tom Nalen, Chris Myers
RG: Chris Kuper, Chris Myers
RT: Jordan Gross, Tony Hills

You're joking, right? Lance Leggett? OMG....I'd have to get Breck down from the ledge if the Broncos drafted him. Lance Leggett has no place on this team, none, whatsoever. He's not going to even be drafted.

[Florida_Bronco]

I've been screaming for us to convert to a 3-4 defense for years....

Everytime I've brought up on the board, fellow members would tell me it's not a good idea or how we'd have to turnover too many players....

i don't think it'll happen but i certainly hope it does...

For what it's worth, Mediator said that Coyer wanted to switch to the 3-4 and Shanahan wanted no part of it, which is another reason Coyer is gone.

I'm sure we could have converted to the 3-4 and ran it well, but it seems Shanahan is commited to using the 4-3.

[bpc]

You will never see a Shanahan coached team run a 3-4 as a base defense, so that can be scraped. I also think you're overreacting about the lack of heart on this team. We have some players who aren't showing much heart, but it's not the 2/3 you say it is.

This team is going to be OK. We definetly need some help at OT BUT Lepsis may very well bounce back next year and give us a year or two to groom his replacement and we have Harris who the team is very high on at RT.

We need help at DT. I'm sure Thomas will have a good year next year, but we need to sign a FA to play next to him. Obviously we could draft a guy too, but rookie D-linemen usually don't provide an instant impact. We have plenty of talent at defensive end that should come around next year.

I'm fairly comfortable with our linebacker situation, as Webster's play has improved and Winborn has shown flashes. I'm also comfortable with the defensive backs.

So we need help at offensive and defensive tackle and a punter. Shouldn't be too hard to fix.

Pose this question... WHY will we never run a 4-3? We can't stop it. Why not run it? I just don't get it... you make it easier for your team to draft and you can run numerous pressure schemes with it. The 3-4 makes sense to most EXCEPT our FO and coaches. We've tried everything else. We have the hardest time drafting defensive linemen and we love to draft LB's.

[bpc]

Good thoughts, Chris, I want to first address the bolded part (the part I bolded in blue, that is the players you wanted to just cut), though. It's not financially feasible to simply get rid of those players you listed. For some of them, its ok, like Gold for example, since we won't take much of a hit there. You can't get rid of Henry, because that's 12m guaranteed that will hit the cap either all at once or over two years (only one year of this sum has been prorated, so its more like a 10m hit, either at once or spread out, just not wise, we are stuck with him), it's just too costly in either case really. The same is also probably true of Lepsis because he recently got a high priced extension, you can't cut him, but maybe we can get him to take a reduction of his base salary, IMO, it just won't work to blow all the space we finally have for next summer taking cap accelerations just because we want to get rid of guys. I see no reason to cut Pears either. That's not to say I want him starting anymore at RT, ofcourse not, but he's making peanuts, there's no harm in keeping him as a backup OT, maybe he'll regain his 2006 form. Even if he doesn't there are no savings there to be made. Hamilton is more of a medical issue than anything, if he is good to go, I want him back. I don't think his salary is prohibitive, anyway. If he's healthy, Ben can give us probably another 3 more good years either at LG or C. I know we are all angry but we have to be pragmatic too.

I like the Shawn Crable idea...albeit not the 3-4 one. Crable is big enough to play Sam in the 4-3, yet athletic enough to run with people too. He would be a good selection in Round 2 for the 4-3 if we keep it as I'm sure we will. Shanahan is simply a 4-3 guy. It is rather difficult to radically change the entire concept of the front 7 like that in one offseason and try to plug in all the new 3-4 parts and hope all is swell that fast. The 4-3 is not the problem, nor is the particular scheme that Bates prefers (4-3 Over). He just needs people who fit his style. Let him have that oppurtunity.

Great points. I'm disappointed in Pears but I would give him another shot. I hate Henry but if we are married to him, guess we have no choice. That is funny though because Shanahan said if he had any problems with him (I think lack of effort and content on the field ='s that right?)_he would cut him.

I clearly don't understand why people don't want the 3-4. After watching NE use it to win multiple championships, Pittsburgh use it effectively over the past decade with Cowher among even SD now kicking our ass annually with it, why not make the switch? It seems too simple. We have good CB"s that can play the ball amazingly well... WHY NOT RUSH THE PASSER EFFECTIVELY?

Just doesn't make sense that so many people are against this.

As for Leggett... i defer to you as you are a Miami fan but doesn't he have world class speed? As an offense aren't we lacking a fast deep threat? We won't be able to draft one early, we might try late.

Its just a thought.

[-Slap-]

We never could have run a 3-4 with those tiny linebackers. The OLBs in a 3-4 need to be able to rush the quarterback without making offensive tackles smirk and laugh as they casually deflect them.

There's no telling Moss and Dumervil have the movement skills necessary to play OLB in a 3-4, either. I'm sure teams worked Elvis out at LB before he was drafted. When they all concluded he was a natural born DE, albeit a really short one, he free fell into the fourth round, despite 20 sacks and 11 forced fumbles as a senior.

[Requiem]

Don't worry about the cap hits if getting rid of poor players who offer no longevity to the team. It's money. Denver can find a way to restructure a few other big contracts to absorb the hits of getting rid of players like Travis Henry.

[bpc]

He hasn't "raped" the front 7, yavoon. The only big mistake he made in terms of getting rid of someone useful was Warren. The guys he brought in and let go, were low-risk, low-cost guys. Sam Adams (1 yr. deal), Kennedy (6th rounder...although I love my 6th rounders :) ). Bates has not hurt the front seven but for Warren. To compare what he would require vs. a whole switch to the 3-4 is ridiculous. He already has his 3 tech DT, now he just needs his 1 tech. His ends are fine, they'll grow and develop, we've already made the investment there for our 4-3 DEs. At least one LB is needed. So he does not need to "turnover the entire front 7", in reality it is adding one DT and either 1 or 2 LBs. That's basically it. In a 3-4, you would need to do the following:
a. 3-4 NT
b. Two 3-4 DEs (I suppose Crowder might be able to fill in one of the roles, but I do not like pigeonholing him like that, I think he is a better fit as a 4-3 strongside end)
c. Another 3-4 ILB.
d. Marcus Thomas gets wasted and now has no place. He's a 4-3 DT, and will be a good one at that. Why do we constantly want to fit square pegs into round holes? It's getting annoying. We need to stop that ****.

I'd rather have Bates just make the two additions (or three) required for his own scheme then do the above. I'm pretty sure he didn't get dumb overnight, he's been very successful in other places. It's also unfair. Every Shanahan DC has had at least two years to get things into sync.

You assume too much. We need just as many parts for our Bates 4-3 as we would for a 3-4. We need at least two more DT's that are game worth, we only have two right now and one is vastly undersized and another is tipping the scales only heavy enough to be the 3 technique.

We need two more LB's as I see it right now and even Med will tell you... do we have any every down DE's? No.

For the 3-4, I think Thomas could fit in well... Richard Seymore and Ty Warren are playing DE, both were DT's coming out of college. We could draft Beau Bell, sit him inside with DJ Williams at MLB. Dumervil and Moss might actually be better off outside as 3-4 rush LB's.

All of our sparepart defensive linemen would fit in a nice rotation on the DL. We would just need a natural NT to plug in there. BOOM, Randy Starks is out on the market.

I really think you are reaching hard to make the 3-4 look bad. It isn't that bad and it wouldn't be that drastic of a switch for us. IN fact, it makes a whole lot more sense than what we would doing is right.

[bpc]

We never could have run a 3-4 with those tiny linebackers. The OLBs in a 3-4 need to be able to rush the quarterback without making offensive tackles smirk and laugh as they casually deflect them.

There's no telling Moss and Dumervil have the movement skills necessary to play OLB in a 3-4, either. I'm sure teams worked Elvis out at LB before he was drafted. When they all concluded he was a natural born DE, albeit a really short one, he free fell into the fourth round, despite 20 sacks and 11 forced fumbles as a senior.

You bring up an interesting point. While I think Dumervil and Moss both could have a shot at playing those position, the 3-4 is a hell of a lot easier to pick up talent for than the 4-3. We will never draft high enough to pick up the Mario Williams or the Julius Peppers of the draft... so we keep plugging in spare parts from the draft or other teams that don't pan out.

There are more tweeners out there falling through the cracks vs. the big DT's and DE's we are looking for.

[TheDave]

The offseason hasn't begun and already the 3-4 talk is starting... Sorry folks unless we get rid of Bates there is no chance of a 3-4. I think this team needs some consistancy on the defensive coaching staff... not more wholesale change.

[bpc]

We need a scheme that works with the players we can pick up.

We have Champ Bailey and Dre Bly just waiting on the corners to pick off passes... yet we can't get our DL to consistently sniff the QB to save their lives.

If there were any sort of pressure getting on QB's, those two would have amazing seasons for us.

[yavoon]

The offseason hasn't begun and already the 3-4 talk is starting... Sorry folks unless we get rid of Bates there is no chance of a 3-4. I think this team needs some consistancy on the defensive coaching staff... not more wholesale change.

the 3-4 idea has always been around. it was here last offseason when everyone was like "omg we can't do a 3-4 it would mean too much turnover." now we have bates and what is basically wholesale change in the front 7 and ppl are defending bates for the same reason they criticized the 3-4. I think the 3-4 ppl have been largely vindicated.

[TheDave]

the 3-4 idea has always been around. it was here last offseason when everyone was like "omg we can't do a 3-4 it would mean too much turnover." now we have bates and what is basically wholesale change in the front 7 and ppl are defending bates for the same reason they criticized the 3-4. I think the 3-4 ppl have been largely vindicated.

The "We should switch to a 3-4" has been an offseason topic since 2004 (that i know of)

It didn't happen then and i highly doubt it will happen now. But congradulations on being "Vindicated" :thumbs:

[DivineLegion]

What you are seeing is the reason SoCal demands we stockpile picks every offseason, we are witnessing the distructive potential of failed Drafts. 2000-2003 we only drafted one quality player and made moves that only neted us one impact trade.

The last Three seasons we have had sucsessful drafts, what you see on the field is young talent surounded by aged vetrens and no one in the middle to pick up the slack. Shannahan has been filling the voids left by these players with temporary players to make quick runs and the build up of these decisions are evident in this season.

There is hope however, the last three drafts have been more sucsessful. Jay Cutler, Tony Scheffler, Brandon Marshall, Chris Myers, Elvis Dumervil, Tim Crowder, Jarvis Moss (cant rule him in or out but he has alot of upside), Darrent Williams, Dominique Foxworth, and Carl Paymah all have great upside and have made some sort of impact on this team. I think Paymah can make a run for starting corner on this team next season. They have been using Paymah as the nickle (because Nique is playing saftey), but he has replaced Bly in quite a few games after hes made some bonehead mistakes and played very well. I like his upside and his closing ability, you can tell hes learning how to play the corner position in the NFL from Champ Bailey becasue watching him play is like watching a Champ Clone still working on his insticts and his break on the ball. Im not saying he is as physicly talented or as smart as champ, because hes not, Im saying hes style is realy starting to mimic Champ. I think Paymah is headed in the right direction, plus hes a better tackler than Bly.

Either way this team has alot of young talent with alot of upside that I think is two sucsessful drafts away from being a contender again. There are a few players I think can help us get there sooner through free agency but I think this teams main focus should be another sucsessful draft.

[DBroncos4life]

bring in Bill Callahan as OC

[yavoon]

The "We should switch to a 3-4" has been an offseason topic since 2004 (that i know of)

It didn't happen then and i highly doubt it will happen now. But congradulations on being "Vindicated" :thumbs:

thanks! =P

[Gcver2ver3]

You bring up an interesting point. While I think Dumervil and Moss both could have a shot at playing those position, the 3-4 is a hell of a lot easier to pick up talent for than the 4-3. We will never draft high enough to pick up the Mario Williams or the Julius Peppers of the draft... so we keep plugging in spare parts from the draft or other teams that don't pan out.

There are more tweeners out there falling through the cracks vs. the big DT's and DE's we are looking for.

This is the post of someone who gets it.....

If only our FO understood this

[Florida_Bronco]

Pose this question... WHY will we never run a 4-3? We can't stop it. Why not run it? I just don't get it... you make it easier for your team to draft and you can run numerous pressure schemes with it. The 3-4 makes sense to most EXCEPT our FO and coaches. We've tried everything else. We have the hardest time drafting defensive linemen and we love to draft LB's.

You'll have to ask Shanny that, as I was perfectly open to running the 3-4 during the Coyer era.

[SoCalBronco]

You assume too much. We need just as many parts for our Bates 4-3 as we would for a 3-4. We need at least two more DT's that are game worth, we only have two right now and one is vastly undersized and another is tipping the scales only heavy enough to be the 3 technique.

We need two more LB's as I see it right now and even Med will tell you... do we have any every down DE's? No.

For the 3-4, I think Thomas could fit in well... Richard Seymore and Ty Warren are playing DE, both were DT's coming out of college. We could draft Beau Bell, sit him inside with DJ Williams at MLB. Dumervil and Moss might actually be better off outside as 3-4 rush LB's.

All of our sparepart defensive linemen would fit in a nice rotation on the DL. We would just need a natural NT to plug in there. BOOM, Randy Starks is out on the market.

I really think you are reaching hard to make the 3-4 look bad. It isn't that bad and it wouldn't be that drastic of a switch for us. IN fact, it makes a whole lot more sense than what we would doing is right.

Honestly dude, I am not reaching hard to make the 3-4 look bad. I don't hate the defense at all. I just think it would be a tougher adjustment going to that, than just getting Bates the guys he needs for his 4-3 Over. You talked about a couple issues that I want to address a little bit, the first being Thomas recast as a 3-4 DE. This would be gay. Thomas is best as a 4-3 DT and an explosive one at that (as evidenced by his sack totals and TFL totals at UF in his abbreviated senior season). I like the idea of keeping him as a 3 technique, between the RG and RT, exploding upfield into the B gap and forcing a double team (contrary to popular thought, Bates did not ask his DTs to two gap, its just that, as you know, the 1 tech has to be explosive enough getting into the weakside A gap to draw both the C and LG, and the 3 tech has to be explosive enough (sheer strength/talent)/ or by contrast powerful enough (size) getting into the strongside B gap to draw both the RG and RT). There's no need to take away Thomas's explosiveness by making him into a 3-4 DE where he is now responsible for two different gaps and make him hesitant. This might be ok with Crowder, although I would still prefer him to be a 4-3 strongside end, because he is starting to show (or did at one point this year) that he can actually contribute in the sack/FF department in addition to containing the run. Why must we always be trying to force people into certain roles that aren't ideal for them. Isn't the entire concept of coaching to put people in a position to highlight strengths? We have tried this idea several times the last few years and have continually failed at it. The fact of the matter is, to make it a really good fit, it is most likely that all three DL would have to be new, or at least two of the three would have to be, if we bent over backwards a little bit and said ok, Crowder, you are one of these ends now. Thomas would be wasted, IMO. It's a much tougher analogy with Thomas as a 3-4 DE than Crowder, even though Thomas is a little heavier.

What about the OLBs...ok...Doom and Moss might be explosive as blitzers from the outside but you know 3-4 OLBs are required to do much more than that. How do we know Doom and/or Moss can play curl to flat zone coverage? How do we know Doom and/or Moss can play man to man against a running back or slot reciever? How do we know Doom and/or Moss can make an open field tackle against a skill position player? They might be suitable for one particular aspect of 3-4 OLB play but there are grave questions about their suitability for other aspects.

The ILBs...you proposed DJ Williams and Beau Bell. The only upside in this 3-4 thing for DJ would be that it would cut down his reads in half. Instead of first having to determine: a) whether its a run or pass and then b) if run, whether its a strong run or weak run, since the MLB in the Over front is responsible for the strong A gap vs. a strongside run and the weak B gap vs. a weakside run, here he would have just one gap in total to be responsible for. The downsides though exceed this benefit: a) He's playing uncovered, in fact, both ILBs are uncovered, we have to rely on the NT being able to properly and QUICKLY diagnose the play so as to get into the right A gap, and then overpower the center drawing the guard for assistance so that the uncovered ILB can just shoot that B gap without having to worry about the uncovered guard getting to him. This is a tough deal. It's not just size with the 3-4 NT, youve got to do 3 things really fast, as opposed to the Bates defense where it is easier, albeit power is still an asset in that defense also. Very difficult to protect two ILBs with one tackle and two uncovered guards. The second downside is that he is no longer a run and chase LB in this scheme, which is what he should be, which is what he is best at. You don't go both ways, you go only one way, regardless of the direction of the play, you can't really pursue as much as in the 4-3.

Contrast with the 4-3 Over. All we really need is one more DT, and either 1 new OLB or 2 new OLB (I suspect, however, that we will go with 1 and leave Winborn for the other job, for better or worse next season, just a gut feeling). The draft is plentiful in talented, athletic 4-3 OLBs. Realistically, we could take a simple and fairly cost efficient four step approach to solving the front 7 as it is now, without turning it into a huge project: add a top FA DT (our sole high level defensive FA investment to make sure we are financially sound) and add a LB in Round 2, and a mid level FA LB, address DT also in Round 4 with one of our two selections (I think you said we might actually have 3 4s depending on the particulars of the Warren trade, the 5 might escalate to the 4, I think it was you that said that, not 100 percent sure though). This by itself is not extremely costly and still preserves the high first for a supreme OT if that is what the team wants to do in lieu of trading down and I would wager that this would fix the front 7 so that it would be good enough. This is not alot, its not a huge project, which I think the 3-4 is more likely to be, in lieu of the above factors and concerns.

[yavoon]

Honestly dude, I am not reaching hard to make the 3-4 look bad. I don't hate the defense at all. I just think it would be a tougher adjustment going to that, than just getting Bates the guys he needs for his 4-3 Over. You talked about a couple issues that I want to address a little bit, the first being Thomas recast as a 3-4 DE. This would be gay. Thomas is best as a 4-3 DT and an explosive one at that (as evidenced by his sack totals and TFL totals at UF in his abbreviated senior season). I like the idea of keeping him as a 3 technique, between the RG and RT, exploding upfield into the B gap and forcing a double team (contrary to popular thought, Bates did not ask his DTs to two gap, its just that, as you know, the 1 tech has to be explosive enough getting into the weakside A gap to draw both the C and LG, and the 3 tech has to be explosive enough (sheer strength/talent)/ or by contrast powerful enough (size) getting into the strongside B gap to draw both the RG and RT). There's no need to take away Thomas's explosiveness by making him into a 3-4 DE where he is now responsible for two different gaps and make him hesitant. This might be ok with Crowder, although I would still prefer him to be a 4-3 strongside end, because he is starting to show (or did at one point this year) that he can actually contribute in the sack/FF department in addition to containing the run. Why must we always be trying to force people into certain roles that aren't ideal for them. Isn't the entire concept of coaching to put people in a position to highlight strengths? We have tried this idea several times the last few years and have continually failed at it. The fact of the matter is, to make it a really good fit, it is most likely that all three DL would have to be new, or at least two of the three would have to be, if we bent over backwards a little bit and said ok, Crowder, you are one of these ends now. Thomas would be wasted, IMO. It's a much tougher analogy with Thomas as a 3-4 DE than Crowder, even though Thomas is a little heavier.

What about the OLBs...ok...Doom and Moss might be explosive as blitzers from the outside but you know 3-4 OLBs are required to do much more than that. How do we know Doom and/or Moss can play curl to flat zone coverage? How do we know Doom and/or Moss can play man to man against a running back or slot reciever? How do we know Doom and/or Moss can make an open field tackle against a skill position player? They might be suitable for one particular aspect of 3-4 OLB play but there are grave questions about their suitability for other aspects.

The ILBs...you proposed DJ Williams and Beau Bell. The only upside in this 3-4 thing for DJ would be that it would cut down his reads in half. Instead of first having to determine: a) whether its a run or pass and then b) if run, whether its a strong run or weak run, since the MLB in the Over front is responsible for the strong A gap vs. a strongside run and the weak B gap vs. a weakside run, here he would have just one gap in total to be responsible for. The downsides though exceed this benefit: a) He's playing uncovered, in fact, both ILBs are uncovered, we have to rely on the NT being able to properly and QUICKLY diagnose the play so as to get into the right A gap, and then overpower the center drawing the guard for assistance so that the uncovered ILB can just shoot that B gap without having to worry about the uncovered guard getting to him. This is a tough deal. It's not just size with the 3-4 NT, youve got to do 3 things really fast, as opposed to the Bates defense where it is easier, albeit power is still an asset in that defense also. Very difficult to protect two ILBs with one tackle and two uncovered guards. The second downside is that he is no longer a run and chase LB in this scheme, which is what he should be, which is what he is best at. You don't go both ways, you go only one way, regardless of the direction of the play, you can't really pursue as much as in the 4-3.

Contrast with the 4-3 Over. All we really need is one more DT, and either 1 new OLB or 2 new OLB (I suspect, however, that we will go with 1 and leave Winborn for the other job, for better or worse next season, just a gut feeling). The draft is plentiful in talented, athletic 4-3 OLBs. Realistically, we could take a simple and fairly cost efficient four step approach to solving the front 7 as it is now, without turning it into a huge projection: add a top FA DT (our sole high level FA investment to make sure we are financially sound) and add a LB in Round 2, and a mid level FA LB, address DT also in Round 4 with one of our two selections (I think you said we might actually have 3 4s depending on the particulars of the Warren trade, the 5 might escalate to the 4, I think it was you that said that, not 100 percent sure though). This by itself is not extremely costly and still preserves the high first for a supreme OT if that is what the team wants to do in lieu of trading down and I would wager that this would fix the front 7 so that it would be good enough. This is not alot, its not a huge project, which I think the 3-4 is more likely to be, in lieu of the above factors and concerns.

this is the usual way the anti 3-4 ppl talk. like the 3-4 somehow takes super players at every position, while their prefered defense takes retards and ppl who drool on themselves, which we supposedly have in abundance.

[Inkana7]

Get rid of the kids who don't want to win. That'll help immediatly.

[wabbit]

3-4.4-3, cut Henry, pay Bly by the hour-send Shanahan packing...c'mon folks.

This team needs surgery, not a beheading.

Screw in a few good people at OT, DT, LB & Safety and this team is good to go.

Ok, I know, easier said than done...especially at OT & DT, but I honestly believe the team can land a quality OT in the draft and perhaps a DT in FA.

Safety is certainly a draft issue. Boy, I always wonder who in the hell wouldn't take Rodney Harrisons' calls when he left San Diego and announced publicly that he wanted to play for Denver...Ted.

Imagine that guy in the AFC Championship game against the Steelers. Oh well.

Point is, the team needs pieces to complete the puzzle, not a new puzzle.

[Ratboy]

3-4.4-3, cut Henry, pay Bly by the hour-send Shanahan packing...c'mon folks.

This team needs surgery, not a beheading.

Screw in a few good people at OT, DT, LB & Safety and this team is good to go.

Ok, I know, easier said than done...especially at OT & DT, but I honestly believe the team can land a quality OT in the draft and perhaps a DT in FA.

Safety is certainly a draft issue. Boy, I always wonder who in the hell wouldn't take Rodney Harrisons' calls when he left San Diego and announced publicly that he wanted to play for Denver...Ted.

Imagine that guy in the AFC Championship game against the Steelers. Oh well.

Point is, the team needs pieces to complete the puzzle, not a new puzzle.


Nice. I agree for the most part. It's not the system totally, although I'm losing faith in Shanahan.

It's looking like we're going to have enough cap space to go after some big players. Draft a O-Tackle, Sign another in FA. We can also go out and sign Albert Haynesworth (I think we will) and Our team is going to start looking good.

[Ratboy]

Albert Haynesworth is EXACTLY what this defense needs.


http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2006/1001/nfl_ap_haynesworth_195.jpg

http://www.mythoughtspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/t1_haynesworth.jpg

We need a mean MFer who wants to crush skulls (no pun intended)

[Hogan11]

Albert Haynesworth is EXACTLY what this defense needs.

We need a mean MFer who wants to crush skulls (no pun intended)

My God, the last thing a struggling defense needs is a tantrum machine like Haynesworth. No surprise that those who want him are also those who confuse unsportsmanlike conduct with "firey competitive spirit".

[Ratboy]

My God, the last thing a struggling defense needs is a tantrum machine like Haynesworth. No surprise that those who want him are also those who confuse unsportsmanlike conduct with "firey competitive spirit".

Fat Albert is a monster, I would have no complaints to have him in Denver. Maybe Randy Starks if we're looking at a cheaper option.

[Beantown Bronco]

1. The Broncos have failed to score more than 15 points in 7 games this season. They've failed to score more than 7 pts in 3 games.

It scares me when I read posters who believe a first round OT is the only move needed here.

2. The Broncos have gotten absolutely blown out in 4 games this season, giving up an average of 35 points in those losses.

It scares me when I read posters who believe just one or two moves here will save the day. Especially when one of those two moves simply involves letting guys like Gold go. Gold wasn't even on the field for two of those blowouts. Time to find a new scapegoat I guess.

[Drek]

Fat Albert is a monster, I would have no complaints to have him in Denver. Maybe Randy Starks if we're looking at a cheaper option.
Haynesworth is playing for a contract. This is by far the best season he's ever had and the first one where he (mostly) kept his mouth shut and just played.

Do you really want to run the risk of giving him the $20M guaranteed and $6-$7M annual value it'd take to lock him up? I sure don't.

We'd be better going after Corey Williams who actually knows and has been productive in Bates' scheme. He'd cost a hell of a lot less and the 7 sacks he's averaged from DT over the last two years is a pretty damn good fire starter for any defense.

We need to avoid blowing our load on one big signing. Williams should be the centerpiece of our off-season. Then get someone who can two gap next to him like his current teammate Colin Coles to be a rotational player. Sign Boss Bailey to start in front of his brother and get someone like Teddy Lehman on a get right contract. Then sign the best RT we have money left for, preferably Jordan Gross or Max Starks.

Spend our first pick on the best OT we can get (Clady?), our second on Frank Okam (who I could see suffering an Alan Branch level slide, but even further down the board since there are more 1st round DTs in this class). Then use the entire second day to fill out the depth chart. We have at least two fourths, two fifths, a sixth and two sevenths. Get the best linebacker and safety we can in the fourth (I'm hoping Zbikowski and Ezra Butler or Beau Bell), the best DT and WR available in the 5th (Jason Shirley would be a good dT choice, for WR someone like Eddie Royal or Dexter Jackson, someone who can return and be a speedy slot WR threat to groom as Stokley's replacement). Use the 6th rounder on the best RB available, hopefully either Benjarvis Green-Ellis (big power back) or Danny Woodhead (ellusive speedster from Chadron who could also be a return man). Use the two sevenths to get the best remaining punter (Geoff Price?) and a blocking FB (Michael Pitre).

I'd feel pretty good with that off-season.

[orinjkrush]

keep mostly the same people...get mostly the same results.

the real strength of this team seems to be the brash NEW youngsters gettin on the field.

IMHO we need more new people. not old. the draft, or lack thereof, is everything. OL, DL. Two new studs on each please.

[socalorado]

Haynesworth is playing for a contract. This is by far the best season he's ever had and the first one where he (mostly) kept his mouth shut and just played.

Do you really want to run the risk of giving him the $20M guaranteed and $6-$7M annual value it'd take to lock him up? I sure don't.

We'd be better going after Corey Williams who actually knows and has been productive in Bates' scheme. He'd cost a hell of a lot less and the 7 sacks he's averaged from DT over the last two years is a pretty damn good fire starter for any defense.

We need to avoid blowing our load on one big signing. Williams should be the centerpiece of our off-season. Then get someone who can two gap next to him like his current teammate Colin Coles to be a rotational player. Sign Boss Bailey to start in front of his brother and get someone like Teddy Lehman on a get right contract. Then sign the best RT we have money left for, preferably Jordan Gross or Max Starks.

Spend our first pick on the best OT we can get (Clady?), our second on Frank Okam (who I could see suffering an Alan Branch level slide, but even further down the board since there are more 1st round DTs in this class). Then use the entire second day to fill out the depth chart. We have at least two fourths, two fifths, a sixth and two sevenths. Get the best linebacker and safety we can in the fourth (I'm hoping Zbikowski and Ezra Butler or Beau Bell), the best DT and WR available in the 5th (Jason Shirley would be a good dT choice, for WR someone like Eddie Royal or Dexter Jackson, someone who can return and be a speedy slot WR threat to groom as Stokley's replacement). Use the 6th rounder on the best RB available, hopefully either Benjarvis Green-Ellis (big power back) or Danny Woodhead (ellusive speedster from Chadron who could also be a return man). Use the two sevenths to get the best remaining punter (Geoff Price?) and a blocking FB (Michael Pitre).

I'd feel pretty good with that off-season.

Heres the guys DEN should get in FA. Spend ALL FA money ONLY on these guys, thats it.
DTs
Corey Williams and Randy Starks.
O-Line
Alan Foneco G( Yes. hes really good, there is "in-house" issues in PIT, he just wants out.)
Jordan Gross OT
THe DTs will be moderately expensive and the O-linemen WILL be expensive.

Please no more posts about Boss Bailey or Tom Xzbitkowski ok? Neither are going to help this team.
The rest of the areas of need should be addressed through the draft, and i,m not saying to NOT draft more linemen, but i think this is the best possible start to the offseason FA.

[Mediator12]

From a previous tirade...

"Pathetic. No heart, gutless. I've never been more disappointed to be a fan... when a team refuses to get up and fight when they are called out repeatedly as bi!ches, pu$$ies, frauds... that lights me on fire! Cutler was the only guy out there willing to fight. Damn that makes me angry. DO SOMETHING! GET MAD! FIGHT BACK!

Some of these guys got to go. Screw it, rebuild. Get a different character to this team. Cut a lot of this dead weight from the roster and lets move in a different direction with some players that have heart and are willing to fight. 1/2 this roster is interested in collecting their paycheck and then going home

Shanahan, you have free reign to make over this roster anyway you want. If that means we have to go through a two or three year rebuilding period than do so. Get some of these heartless, gutless, soulless bastards out of here and out of the orange and blue that represents my team, the Broncos and the city of Denver.

These colors are our flags... like the good ol' red, white, and blue that we all salute each day living in America. What 2/3's of this roster did yesterday equates to taking that flag and throwing it on the ground and stepping on it.

With that being said, where do we go from here as a team and organization?

This is only my interpretation but these are the moves I would make:

Start over. We have a lot of high money, low effort players on this team that aren't holding their weight. I've seen enough from these guys to know who needs to stay and go. We are in for a little bit of rebuilding but...

Boom, Matt Lepsis, Erik Pears, Ben Hamilton, Travis Henry, and Ian Gold are all gone. I know, that much is a given right?

Next step, recommitt to building up the talent on the offensive line. We need two starting quality players at OT. Since we just cut Lepsis and Pears out right, we need to turn our attention to drafting at least one or two different prospects here. Everybody knows i've been pro-OT in round 1 for a long time. For good measure we could snap up a talented player like Tony Hills in round 4. Low pick, high upside. In round 1, we need an eraser... I like Jeff Otah, Phil Loadholt or Ryan Clady. Make one of them happen for this team. No excuses, we should be selecting around #9 in this years draft supposing Cincy beats Miami next week and they should. Explore trading back to see if we can get a good offensive tackle that can pass block. I'll stand pat though if it means i'm going to get a great player. We'll assume in this thread that Dallas is moving up for McFadden, trades us the 21st and 31st selections overall.

In the offseason, offer Jordan Gross a contract to be our right tackle. He's young, he can play the run/pass equally efficient. He also doesn't get his QB's killed so he's an improvement. This is the NFL, its going to take $$$$ to sign these guys so don't be surprised when he gets a good scratch.

While we're at it, add some competition to the mix on the interior line. Renegotiate Nalen, hopefully he goes along with it because I would rather not cut him... I would rather have him around because he is a pretty good pass protector. Myers, Kuper, and Holland are our guards but we should try to bring in more talent to challenge them as well.

OUR GOAL on the OLINE is to become a more effective pass blocking unit. Holland switches to LG, Kuper switches to RG and Myers competes at Center and guard. For good measure we draft Robert Felton in the 4th round.

OL now looks like Otah, Holland, Nalen, Kuper, Gross as the starters. Reserves are Myers, Felton, Hills, and Harris. (BTW, I don't think Harris will be a player for us. I just thought I would reiterate that.) This unit should have more talent, size, speed, and ability to pass block.

At WR I'm tempted to add a deep threat through the draft. Forget it. Word out of NY is that Laverneus Coles might be released by the Jets. Find a way for him to fit in Denver with a cap friendly deal. He can come in and stretch the defense. I'm fine keeping Javon for the next year. I have a feeling his knee will come back (fingers crossed more than anything) and Brandon Marshall shall be the #1 WR on this team anyways.

We have Graham and Scheffler at TE... both great options for this offense. Those guys will help us win. If Daniel Graham's injury showed us anything, we need more players here.

With Henry being gone we are counting on Young and Hall a little too much. I like both players, not sold completely on either. I really like Chris Johnson but we have other needs that need to be addressed at this point and time... look up Fred Taylor, Jamal Lewis and TJ Duckett... offer them minimum deals, see who bites on it to play the hammer for our offense. I imagine it would be Duckett even though I would love to see any of these backs in Denver.

I was a huge fan of Bill Bates when he got here... heard about the defense, saw Green Bay a bunch of times this year... I was excited. Even through the blowouts and multiple 100 yd rushers in the middle of the season, I stood by him.

I just can't anymore and I'll tell you why... It has more to do with what is out there vs. Bates. He has disappointed me, the team more so than him. There is only one way we are ever going to play the 3-4 effectively on offense. If you can't beat them, JOIN THEM!

With Bill Parcells taking over Miami, Dom Capers is out as a Dolphin and IN as the Broncos Associate Head Coach/Defensive Coordinator.

Boom, instantly that porous 4-3 turns into a 3-4 that can rush the passer and make use of our DB's.

Let me tell you how we are going to do this.

With the #9 pick traded, we picked up the 21st selection (Jeff Otah - OT), and the 31st selection. We also hold the 41st selection in the 2nd round.

We need MLB's so in comes Beau Bell with the 31st selection to pair up with DJ Williams at MLB. At OLB we are going to use Dumervil and Jarvis Moss, both edge guys who can rush the passer.

Corey Williams is still a priority as is signing a nose tackle guy like Randy Starks. We actually are more well-suited for this defense then we think. I think guys like Tim Crowder, Alvin McKinley, Marcus Thomas, Kenny Peterson, and Steven Harris all fit well in this role, especially after Bill Bates was the DC... the principles of his 4-3 vs. a 3-4 are not that much different. You have to control the man in front of you, keep them off the LB's.

For good measure with the 41st selection in the 2nd round we are going to draft Shawn Crable, just in case Jarvis Moss continues to have injury concerns. He leads the nation in tackles for loss with 26.5.

bpc, I have a few concerns with this:

1. This offense relies heavily on a dominant running game to set up the passing game. Its the focus of the scheme, so if you shift to a pass blocking OL instead, you are going to have to change the scheme. You really think Mike would do that? I certainly do not.

2. I have a really credible source that told me that Shanahan will NEVER run the 3-4, despite being more set up to play that than they are a 4-3 over the last few years. The DL has got to be MUCH better to attempt to keep a 4-3 system in place. We are not talking getting average players here either, we have plenty of those. They need at least TWO above average DL to have a chance. Right Now, they have zero and a fabulous Pass rush specialist who never makes a play in any meaningful games.

3. As I see it right now, you have a fading offensive scheme that is no longer capable of exploiting the weaknesses it once did in other teams. It has fallen behind in the pass happy NFL of today. Until they revise it, it is going to be mediocre instead of dominant like it once was.

The defense does not have the DL to play a credible 4-3 and has not since the start of 2004 when they started out just as an average unit. The HC does not have any idea what he wants to do on Defense either, so he hires a guy like Bates with a good track record to implement a new 4-3 scheme. Then, that move blows up in his face. He will never admit it was a mistake, its not in his nature, and he is going to continue to make poor personnel decisions on Defense until they establish a scheme and work it for more than an offseason.

4. So, you have an ineffective offense that needs to be changed and a defense that needs a scheme identity. Combine that with a head coach who keeps persuading himself they are not that far away from being a contender and does not like change and what do you get? A major Cluster****.

5. Someone will be scapegoated this offseason, my logical choice is Sundquist. It is the way Mike rationalizes his decisions.

6. Man, that does not even touch on ST's either ;D Yikes!

7. That is about all I can handle at this point.

[Beantown Bronco]

The pro "3-4" crowd keeps chirping about how they don't have the DTs to run a "4-3" anyway as reason enough to switch....but just as valid an argument could be made the other way. They simply don't have the DTs or LBs to play a "3-4".

And there's more to a "3-4" OLB than just rushing the passer. And neither Moss nor Dumervil have shown they are capable of doing anything else......if that, even.

[Mediator12]

The pro "3-4" crowd keeps chirping about how they don't have the DTs to run a "4-3" anyway as reason enough to switch....but just as valid an argument could be made the other way. They simply don't have the DTs or LBs to play a "3-4".

And there's more to a "3-4" OLB than just rushing the passer. And neither Moss nor Dumervil have shown they are capable of doing anything else......if that, even.

That is just too simple of an argument, BB. It swings both ways for any scheme. The DL still has to perform well for either to work, the advantage of the 3-4 is that if your DL sucks you need LESS of them to make the Scheme work. DAL has used undersized NT's all year and even with Ferguson and made their 3-4 work.

As for the 3-4 OLB's needing to do more than rush the passer, that is true. But guys like Demarcus Ware, Manny Lawson, Lamarr Woodley, Parys Haralson, Shaun Phillips, Anthony Spencer, Terrell Suggs, Kamerion Wimbley, and Antwan Peek have all played 3-4 OLB well after being 4-3 DE's in college and the Pros. Moss, Crowder, and Dumervil are the same type of player that could thrive in the 3-4.

[Beantown Bronco]

That is just too simple of an argument, BB. It swings both ways for any scheme. The DL still has to perform well for either to work, the advantage of the 3-4 is that if your DL sucks you need LESS of them to make the Scheme work.

"Less" if you are starting from scratch/day one. But not "less" if you already have a really good one in Dumervil. The Broncos are not looking for 4 DLinemen to start the 4-3 next year. They already have one really good DE that would have to be displaced in the 3-4.

[Mediator12]

"Less" if you are starting from scratch/day one. But not "less" if you already have a really good one in Dumervil. The Broncos are not looking for 4 DLinemen to start the 4-3 next year. They already have one really good DE that would have to be displaced in the 3-4.

Dumervil is NOT an everydown DE right now. Sure, he is better than what else they have, but MON should have shown you how much he struggles against good LT's overall and really against the run.

Dumervil would only be displaced to an OLB in a 3-4 scheme. Much like the players I mentioned earlier who made the switch. Guys like Ware and Merriman who are MORE effective at OLB than RDE.

Also, Not Less if you are starting from Scratch, Less OVERALL.

[Beantown Bronco]

Dumervil would only be displaced to an OLB in a 3-4 scheme. Much like the players I mentioned earlier who made the switch. Guys like Ware and Merriman who are MORE effective at OLB than RDE.

I understand the move you are suggesting. What I'm saying is that, if made, that would create the same number of needs at DLine (if not more), but more needs at LB. Counting on Moss and Dumervil to be the new Ware and Merriman at outside LB in a 3-4 just because they (in your mind) have the same college skill set is a bigger reach than expecting the current youngsters of Dumervil, Moss, Thomas and Crowder to become solid 4-3 linemen.

[Mediator12]

I understand the move you are suggesting. What I'm saying is that, if made, that would create the same number of needs at DLine (if not more), but more needs at LB. Counting on Moss and Dumervil to be the new Ware and Merriman at outside LB in a 3-4 just because they (in your mind) have the same college skill set is a bigger reach than expecting the current youngsters of Dumervil, Moss, Thomas and Crowder to become solid 4-3 linemen.

No, the DE's Crowder, Moss, and Dumevil would fill the OLB's and there would still need to be 3 DL. Some of those guys they have that are already tweeners like Kenny Peterson and Thomas could be excellent DE's in a 3-4. That leaves true NT's to acquire and another ILB to pair with DJ.

Counting on Moss, Crowder, and Dumervil to become everydown DE's has just about the same amount of chance as switching them to OLB in a 3-4. None of them have proven a thing that way.

[Drek]

Heres the guys DEN should get in FA. Spend ALL FA money ONLY on these guys, thats it.
DTs
Corey Williams and Randy Starks.
O-Line
Alan Foneco G( Yes. hes really good, there is "in-house" issues in PIT, he just wants out.)
Jordan Gross OT
THe DTs will be moderately expensive and the O-linemen WILL be expensive.

Please no more posts about Boss Bailey or Tom Xzbitkowski ok? Neither are going to help this team.
The rest of the areas of need should be addressed through the draft, and i,m not saying to NOT draft more linemen, but i think this is the best possible start to the offseason FA.

So you want to drop somewhere in the area of $12M a season additionally into our OL without fixing LT? Seriously? Faneca isn't a need for this team, he's old and he's going to get some serious coin. I'd rather stick with an improving Kuper and Myers at LG and a very reliable Holland at RG than blow the bank on Faneca.

We do need to sign one legitimate OT, preferably Gross or Max Starks, but it needs to be part of a plan that also gets us a long term LT solution.

And we can't draft for every other need, otherwise we'll be starting three or more rookies on defense and at least one or two on offense.

Bailey is a good choice for this team because he can play all three LB positions, is very capable in coverage (for nickel downs), and he'd probably come fairly cheap as he's not a high profile player and he'd get to be on the same team as Champ. I'm not saying give the guy 5 years at $5M per, but we could probably sign him for three years at $10M total and have ourselves a solid starter.

How do we fill OT, DT, OLB, S, P, and KR through the draft with only two first day picks? Thats just not practical.

Also, Zbikowski would be a draftee, and we could probably actually get him in the 4th. He'd be a good choice because he's an athletic hard hitter with plenty of special teams experience. He needs to improve his fundamentals to ever become a starter but the talent is already there and he'd contribute on STs from day one.

[yavoon]

bpc, I have a few concerns with this:

1. This offense relies heavily on a dominant running game to set up the passing game. Its the focus of the scheme, so if you shift to a pass blocking OL instead, you are going to have to change the scheme. You really think Mike would do that? I certainly do not.

2. I have a really credible source that told me that Shanahan will NEVER run the 3-4, despite being more set up to play that than they are a 4-3 over the last few years. The DL has got to be MUCH better to attempt to keep a 4-3 system in place. We are not talking getting average players here either, we have plenty of those. They need at least TWO above average DL to have a chance. Right Now, they have zero and a fabulous Pass rush specialist who never makes a play in any meaningful games.

3. As I see it right now, you have a fading offensive scheme that is no longer capable of exploiting the weaknesses it once did in other teams. It has fallen behind in the pass happy NFL of today. Until they revise it, it is going to be mediocre instead of dominant like it once was.

The defense does not have the DL to play a credible 4-3 and has not since the start of 2004 when they started out just as an average unit. The HC does not have any idea what he wants to do on Defense either, so he hires a guy like Bates with a good track record to implement a new 4-3 scheme. Then, that move blows up in his face. He will never admit it was a mistake, its not in his nature, and he is going to continue to make poor personnel decisions on Defense until they establish a scheme and work it for more than an offseason.

4. So, you have an ineffective offense that needs to be changed and a defense that needs a scheme identity. Combine that with a head coach who keeps persuading himself they are not that far away from being a contender and does not like change and what do you get? A major Cluster****.

5. Someone will be scapegoated this offseason, my logical choice is Sundquist. It is the way Mike rationalizes his decisions.

6. Man, that does not even touch on ST's either ;D Yikes!

7. That is about all I can handle at this point.

I liked this post for some dumerville hate, it made it interesting.

[socalorado]

So you want to drop somewhere in the area of $12M a season additionally into our OL without fixing LT? Seriously? Faneca isn't a need for this team, he's old and he's going to get some serious coin. I'd rather stick with an improving Kuper and Myers at LG and a very reliable Holland at RG than blow the bank on Faneca.

We do need to sign one legitimate OT, preferably Gross or Max Starks, but it needs to be part of a plan that also gets us a long term LT solution.

And we can't draft for every other need, otherwise we'll be starting three or more rookies on defense and at least one or two on offense.

Bailey is a good choice for this team because he can play all three LB positions, is very capable in coverage (for nickel downs), and he'd probably come fairly cheap as he's not a high profile player and he'd get to be on the same team as Champ. I'm not saying give the guy 5 years at $5M per, but we could probably sign him for three years at $10M total and have ourselves a solid starter.

How do we fill OT, DT, OLB, S, P, and KR through the draft with only two first day picks? Thats just not practical.

Also, Zbikowski would be a draftee, and we could probably actually get him in the 4th. He'd be a good choice because he's an athletic hard hitter with plenty of special teams experience. He needs to improve his fundamentals to ever become a starter but the talent is already there and he'd contribute on STs from day one.

If thats how you feel about Foneco, i'll bite. But sticking with Kuper and Myers might mean Ramsey is the starter here after 2 games.
But as for Boss Bailey, Sorry no way.
Why settle for a scrub with a famous last name, when DEN can just draft a player and save the coin. I dont care if he comes cheap, he sucks and its obvious.
As for Zbibby, only, ONLY as a 4th , nothing higher or its a huge mistake.
Talk about 2 overrated players, Jeez!

[yavoon]

Dumervil is NOT an everydown DE right now. Sure, he is better than what else they have, but MON should have shown you how much he struggles against good LT's overall and really against the run.

Dumervil would only be displaced to an OLB in a 3-4 scheme. Much like the players I mentioned earlier who made the switch. Guys like Ware and Merriman who are MORE effective at OLB than RDE.

Also, Not Less if you are starting from Scratch, Less OVERALL.

I'm pretty sure 99% of the board assumes dumerville will play and be our best pro bowl dlineman, the idea that he might not be able to do that is near blasphemous.

[Sassy]

No where to go but UP baby!
GO BRONCOS!!!

[oubronco]

bpc, I have a few concerns with this:

1. This offense relies heavily on a dominant running game to set up the passing game. Its the focus of the scheme, so if you shift to a pass blocking OL instead, you are going to have to change the scheme. You really think Mike would do that? I certainly do not.

2. I have a really credible source that told me that Shanahan will NEVER run the 3-4, despite being more set up to play that than they are a 4-3 over the last few years. The DL has got to be MUCH better to attempt to keep a 4-3 system in place. We are not talking getting average players here either, we have plenty of those. They need at least TWO above average DL to have a chance. Right Now, they have zero and a fabulous Pass rush specialist who never makes a play in any meaningful games.

3. As I see it right now, you have a fading offensive scheme that is no longer capable of exploiting the weaknesses it once did in other teams. It has fallen behind in the pass happy NFL of today. Until they revise it, it is going to be mediocre instead of dominant like it once was.

The defense does not have the DL to play a credible 4-3 and has not since the start of 2004 when they started out just as an average unit. The HC does not have any idea what he wants to do on Defense either, so he hires a guy like Bates with a good track record to implement a new 4-3 scheme. Then, that move blows up in his face. He will never admit it was a mistake, its not in his nature, and he is going to continue to make poor personnel decisions on Defense until they establish a scheme and work it for more than an offseason.

4. So, you have an ineffective offense that needs to be changed and a defense that needs a scheme identity. Combine that with a head coach who keeps persuading himself they are not that far away from being a contender and does not like change and what do you get? A major Cluster****.

5. Someone will be scapegoated this offseason, my logical choice is Sundquist. It is the way Mike rationalizes his decisions.

6. Man, that does not even touch on ST's either ;D Yikes!

7. That is about all I can handle at this point.

preach it brotha :thumbsup:

[bpc]

bpc, I have a few concerns with this:

1. This offense relies heavily on a dominant running game to set up the passing game. Its the focus of the scheme, so if you shift to a pass blocking OL instead, you are going to have to change the scheme. You really think Mike would do that? I certainly do not.

2. I have a really credible source that told me that Shanahan will NEVER run the 3-4, despite being more set up to play that than they are a 4-3 over the last few years. The DL has got to be MUCH better to attempt to keep a 4-3 system in place. We are not talking getting average players here either, we have plenty of those. They need at least TWO above average DL to have a chance. Right Now, they have zero and a fabulous Pass rush specialist who never makes a play in any meaningful games.

3. As I see it right now, you have a fading offensive scheme that is no longer capable of exploiting the weaknesses it once did in other teams. It has fallen behind in the pass happy NFL of today. Until they revise it, it is going to be mediocre instead of dominant like it once was.

The defense does not have the DL to play a credible 4-3 and has not since the start of 2004 when they started out just as an average unit. The HC does not have any idea what he wants to do on Defense either, so he hires a guy like Bates with a good track record to implement a new 4-3 scheme. Then, that move blows up in his face. He will never admit it was a mistake, its not in his nature, and he is going to continue to make poor personnel decisions on Defense until they establish a scheme and work it for more than an offseason.

4. So, you have an ineffective offense that needs to be changed and a defense that needs a scheme identity. Combine that with a head coach who keeps persuading himself they are not that far away from being a contender and does not like change and what do you get? A major Cluster****.

5. Someone will be scapegoated this offseason, my logical choice is Sundquist. It is the way Mike rationalizes his decisions.

6. Man, that does not even touch on ST's either ;D Yikes!

7. That is about all I can handle at this point.

Thanks for the response med. I don' know if I agree with the first thought. Indy runs a pass heavy scheme but still has annually ran the rock pretty well. Their linemen are also comparable to our in terms of size. I don't think we need to change the scheme so much... we need to get some better players in that can do both. I don't think we have to have 350lb linemen across the board. Our line wasn't that size in the late 90's but they played great. We need better players. The scheme works. Our players right now, especially on the corners of this OLine are not. Thats just my opinion but the product on the field is proving to be the same. I also think Dennison needs to go. I would offer an arm and a leg to get Howard Mudd coaching our Oline.

Our run game used to play with power in the 90's. Then we went and got all finesse, starting converting HB's into blocking fullbacks and really putting lighter HB's in the backfield instead of the thicker, power runners that we've had.

Can you PM more about your communication with this source? Highly concerning to me because we have always had problems against the 3-4 and the fact we are so uninterested in running it is alarming. I'm not against the 4-3... we've just so seldomly recruited talent in the 1st,2nd, or 3rd round for the scheme to run effectively.

[~Crash~]

Albert Haynesworth is EXACTLY what this defense needs.


http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2006/1001/nfl_ap_haynesworth_195.jpg

http://www.mythoughtspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/t1_haynesworth.jpg

We need a mean MFer who wants to crush skulls (no pun intended)

Him and the meanest MLBer we can find like lewis or a porter type of player !

[Beantown Bronco]

The folks that are constantly pimping Boss Bailey better show up to take their lumps after he gets hurt in week four and is out or not the same for the rest of the season.

[Drek]

The folks that are constantly pimping Boss Bailey better show up to take their lumps after he gets hurt in week four and is out or not the same for the rest of the season.

But thats a big part of why you can get him for fairly cheap.

Also, he hasn't missed much time the last two years. He's had one ACL tear that cost him a whole season, but thats happened to lots of guys who've then played perfectly fine thereafter.

I'm not saying we get Boss Bailey on a top tier LB contract and expect him to be a playmaker. But when he'll be maybe the 9th most sought after LB, we have his older brother already on the roster, and he can play any LB position it seems like a pretty smart move to buy into him on a reasonable contract.

Same with Teddy Lehman, though I'd want to give Lehman less money and years. Neither one will break the bank and if they can stay healthy we have a solid vet who can help us bridge the gap to youngsters taking over.

Unless of course you really want to rebuild for the sake of rebuilding and want 6+ rookie starters on this team next year. Personally I don't, teams that throw rookies into the fire year after year don't develop a winning mindset and never get the killer instinct to win big games or win consistantly.