a 9/11 Truth Manifesto

[mhgaffney]

The author of the following is a former engineering professor from the University of Wisconsin.

9/11 Truth Manifesto

By Joel S. Hirschhorn

12/20/07 "ICH" -- -- For evidence that America’s political system is a criminal conspiracy, open your mind to piles of new analyses that prove beyond doubt that the official 9/11 story is a lie. Years of a bipartisan cover-up of 9/11 lies make it much more than one horrendous past event. It endures in infamy as a symptom of a corrupt and dishonest government.

Every day we pay for what 9/11 and its cover-up have burdened us with, including the costly Iraq war and the erosion of the rule of law and constitutional rights. Power elites have suppressed the truth because they fear what will happen when the public understands that 9/11 was not accomplished solely by foreign terrorists.

Technically sound analyses of what happened at the World Trade Center have unequivocally shown that the official 9/11 story is not credible (www.ae911truth.org). Truth seekers have met their burden of proof; the government has not met theirs. Simply put, controlled demolition brought down three buildings, not fires from the impact of planes on two of them. Not only was the US government involved, it has also conspired to hide the truth from the public. Why? Republican and Democratic politicians and power elites fear that 9/11 truth will remove what little public trust remains in government. The truth will produce political instability, perhaps breaking the two-party stranglehold on our political system. And it should. And it must, if we are to finally obtain the deep political reforms our nation desperately needs.

The decline started before George W. Bush and his criminal co-conspirators accelerated it with their blatant disregard for the rule of law and our Constitution. It will continue, even with a Democratic administration, unless we reform our political system. We must remind Americans that our nation was born in an insurrectionist, populist rebellion against political tyranny – and that 9/11 teaches us that we need a Second American Revolution. We must destroy the domestic Axis of Arrogance of our plutocracy more than fear a foreign Axis of Evil. How?

A vast nationwide grassroots 9/11 truth movement is ignored by the mainstream news media. Its success will be the catalyst for renewing American democracy. It will produce a shock wave that rattles the brains of all Americans: Shock therapy from a truth so powerful and unsettling that Americans finally see the decline of American democracy that allowed 9/11 and its cover-up.

Make no mistake, the 9/11 truth movement holds the future of the United States. We are not subversive “conspiracy theorists” or enablers of foreign terrorism. We are patriotic warriors working to nullify group delusion produced by government propaganda. Dozens of books and websites reveal countless technical contradictions and inconsistencies with the official government 9/11 story and the laws of physics. The weight of the evidence supports one painful verdict: Our federal government played a role, probably through a large “black op.” The “why” is obvious: To justify an unjust war to serve corporate interests and greed.

Here is our opportunity: To make 9/11 the tipping point for American democracy renewal. Our enemies fear that if this movement succeeds, their plutocratic, elitist cabal – the Axis of Arrogance – run by the two-party duopoly will collapse. Corruption keeps our political system stable – truth must clean it up. Instability is the necessary price for restoring democracy.

A Paradigm Shift

9/11 lies have sustained the ruling terrorism-threat paradigm. 9/11 truth must energize a new political-reform paradigm. Patriotism framed as defending the nation against terrorism must be replaced by patriotism focused on repairing American democracy.

Already, status quo protectionists lie about us to defeat our movement. Things will get worse as our movement draws closer to bringing down the corrupt political system. And we are getting closer. Only 16 percent of Americans believe that members of the Bush administration are telling the truth about what they knew about terrorist attacks on the US prior to 9/11, according to a New York Times/CBS News poll. But what people say in polls is not the same as coming out publicly and vociferously for 9/11 truth, or seeing the roots of 9/11 in the decay of American democracy, not merely the actions of a few evil people.

The deceived public must be re-educated to see the arrogant power elites running our national plutocracy as worse than radical Islamic terrorists. Paul Craig Roberts captured the essence of the problem: “Americans think their danger is terrorists. They don't understand the terrorists cannot take away habeas corpus, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution. ... The terrorists are not anything like the threat that we face to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution from our own government in the name of fighting terrorism. Americans just aren't able to perceive that.”

9/11 is a history lesson to inform the nation about democracy decline. As John McMurtry asked, “So which goes - the faith in America’s greatness and goodness in the world, or the facts which disclose the opposite at the very top?” We must always remember that Americans are better than their government. They do not get the government they deserve. They get the government that the rich and powerful impose. That must end.

We confront more than power elites. There is psychological resistance of millions of Americans to painful 9/11 truth – a shameful, “unthinkable” truth about their elected government. Even if they have doubts about the official story, they instinctively recoil and erect mental barriers to block out the full truth. They want to keep believing that they live in a great democracy. They want to believe that when the Bush administration is replaced our democracy will be in good shape again. Hard to accept that 9/11 truth could not have been suppressed this long without the tacit or explicit approval of Democratic politicians and power brokers.

It is as if we are telling children that their parents are mass murderers. Distracted, time-poor, depressed, political disengaged, cynical and insecure Americans do not want to hear that their government had a hand in 9/11. That for years their two-party-controlled government has blatantly lied to them. That thousands of good Americans have died and been terribly injured in a war propped up by the false-flag 9/11 fiction. In sum, that despite elections a vast criminal conspiracy has been so successful for so long. Such thoughts hurt.

Also, political instability is scary to ordinary Americans. But stability based on corruption and lies is destructive. Only when Americans see 9/11 as a political attack (by Americans on Americans) – not solely a terrorist attack (by foreigners on Americans) – will they understand that revealing 9/11 truth must lead to major political reforms. Instability is the cost of democracy renewal.

Here are powerful messages: The collapse of the rule of law is more important than the collapse of buildings. Countless more have died because of 9/11 than on 9/11. The events of 9/11 ultimately are less important than the reasons for and consequences of 9/11.

As John McMurtry said, “[9/11] allowed an illegitimate administration to transmute into America’s patriotic champion at war - above accountability and the rule of law. ‘Defending America from another terrorist attack’ became a political blank check for corporate corruption of government expenditures with impunity, war criminal acts and threats across the Islamic and alternative third world, and attacks on civil rights and commons at home.” All this persists as 9/11 lies persist.

Despite record-low levels of public trust in Congress and the president, too many Americans still believe that elections are the path to major political reforms. Despite a solid history of campaign lies from politicians, and overwhelming belief that the nation is on the wrong track, Americans keep hoping that they can vote their way into a better future. Most Americans do not have a Boston Tea Party mentality. They are unready to revolt despite revolting conditions. Our truth movement must help Americans accept painful truth and its political fallout. We must put all the technical truth discovered by reputable scientists and engineers to work for systemic reforms.

We must do more than oust the official story and obtain a new 9/11 investigation that now has wide support by hundreds of respected Americans (www.patriotsquestion911.com). We must guide Americans into a more patriotic and courageous mental state. We must help Americans become outraged and rebellious, yet also optimistic about major political reforms.

Political Strategy

Success against the power elites running and ruining our nation requires building an army of Americans openly revolting against the two-party corporatist state now in control. The 9/11 truth movement must use political strategies to defeat the status quo political establishment. Here are three actions.

First, with detailed technical analyses unequivocally proving that the official story is false, the movement can draft a bill that might be titled The 9/11 Truth Act of 2008. This proposed federal legislation should be delivered to every member of the House and Senate early next year. It would clarify the investigation: What its scope and objectives must be. What reliable entity, public or private or a combination, must be used. How the public must be given opportunities to present information. What resources must be provided and what time frame must be adhered to.

We must take the initiative and specify exactly what kind of new official 9/11 investigation is necessary, recognizing that professionals in the truth movement have limited resources and cannot address all questions. The 9/11 truth movement itself must define exactly what the first real credible and comprehensive government sponsored investigation must consist of. We can have no confidence in anything that the political establishment might devise to silence our movement. We must tell the public, the media and the political world what is required to reveal the total truth as to what caused, for example, the collapse of three World Trade Center buildings, especially building 7 not even hit by a plane.

Developing and submitting this legislation must then be followed up by all 9/11 groups urging their supporters to bombard Congress with demands for hearings and passage of the bill. This is the way to engage more Americans politically to obtain full 9/11 truth.

However, few politicians’ comments support the truth movement. A rare statement came from presidential candidate Ron Paul. In a radio interview in January, 2007 he said that the 9/11 investigations to date are “more or less cover-up and no real explanation of what went on.” However, later in the year when he became more visible he was asked about the possibility of the official story being orchestrated by the government. He said emphatically “absolutely not.” In another interview, when asked whether he thought 9/11 was an inside job that our government made happen, he responded forcefully “No.” So apparently Paul sees a cover-up but not about the involvement of our government. Would he support legislation for a new investigation?

Thus the second critical political action is this: Proclaim that only politicians that actively support passage of our legislation will earn support in the 2008 elections from the millions of Americans doubting the official 9/11 story. This threat is an absolute necessity. If the legislation is not passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bush, then we must aggressively support a boycott on voting for all Democrats and Republicans in the 2008 federal elections.

Third, all those committed to 9/11 truth should honor what the Founders gave us in our Constitution in case some day Americans lost confidence in the federal government, especially in Congress. That day has arrived. 9/11 was that day. They gave us the option in Article V for a convention of state delegates to propose constitutional amendments. We must see SYSTEM reforms as only achievable through constitutional amendments that Congress will never propose nor achieve through normal legislation.

Congress and the entire elitist political establishment have intentionally denied us a convention for over 200 years. The one and only requirement in Article V has more than been satisfied by over 500 state applications from all 50 states. Enough is enough. Our truth movement should join the effort of Friends of the Article V Convention at www.foavc.org by urging truth group members to join FOAVC. The political establishment fears both 9/11 truth and an Article V convention. We must grasp that 9/11 truth can bring us to the brink of political reforms and the convention is the process to obtain them.

Conclusion

The 9/11 truth movement must also be a political movement – but not in any partisan sense. 9/11 truth can help Americans take back their country. 9/11 truth can end the criminal, corrupt and conniving plutocracy that stole our government and mutilated our democracy.

We must transform 9/11 from a catalyzing event for imperialistic war-mongering to one for democracy renewal. We must convert terrorist-transfixed fear into political reform enthusiasm.

The pursuit of truth is not always the pursuit of happiness – not when the truth hurts. The 9/11 truth movement is not about finding immediate happiness. It is about rebooting American democracy and, after accomplishing that, earning happiness.

A former full professor of engineering at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and then senior official with the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment and the National Governors Association, Joel S. Hirschhorn is now an activist writer and can be reached through www.delusionaldemocracy.com. This article is based on presentations given at a recent conference sponsored by Boston 9/11 Truth

[Bronco Bob]

Vote Ron Paul.

[spdirty]

Vote Duncan Hunter.

[yavoon]

vote xenu

[W*GS]

Vote Pat Paulsen.

[Bronco Bob]

Vote Pat Paulsen.

He's dead, Jim.

[TheDave]

Can we vote Gaff off the island?

[Bronco Bob]

Can we vote Gaff off the island?

Nah, Gaff's the WRP's version of a piñata. What fun would it be without him to whack around?

[theAPAOps5]

Foneco for 2008.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Good article, Mark.

As baja mentioned the other day, it's amazing how so many otherwise intelligent people can simply close their eyes to all the evidence that the official 9/11 account is a poorly-constructed fairy tale.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Technically sound analyses of what happened at the World Trade Center have unequivocally shown that the official 9/11 story is not credible (www.ae911truth.org). Truth seekers have met their burden of proof; the government has not met theirs.

Bingo. :thumbsup:

[baja]

goggle endgame

[Chupacabra]

Good article, Mark.

As baja mentioned the other day, it's amazing how so many otherwise intelligent people can simply close their eyes to all the evidence that the official 9/11 account is a poorly-constructed fairy tale.

hahaha i actually didnt know you were a truther.......you would

[Bronco Bob]

hahaha i actually didnt know you were a truther.......you would

Yeah, LABF is sort of Gaffney's Robin when it comes to the Troofer stuff.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yeah, LABF is sort of Gaffney's Robin when it comes to the Troofer stuff.

Actually, I was challenging the official BushCo version of 9/11 long before Mark joined us here on the OM, but don't let a ****ling fact like that get in the way of your denial-fest. ;)

[W*GS]

When it comes to 9/11, gaffney and LABF have made their own little circle jerk.

[baja]

When it comes to 9/11, gaffney and LABF have made their own little circle jerk.

If you are talking about false flag involvement you can include this patriotic American in that above group.

[Spider]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1166/1454018245_5986b5e6c1.jpg

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If you are talking about false flag involvement you can include this patriotic American in that above group.

I think W*GS is too caught up in the Phillip Zelikow circle jerk to hear you. :D

[baja]

I think W*GS is too caught up in the Phillip Zelikow circle jerk to hear you. :D

Did you watch that vid I sent you via Rep.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Did you watch that vid I sent you via Rep.

Yep - thanks.

Pretty sobering stuff.

When the subject of people who cheer their own enslavement was discussed, I thought of this board. ;)

[baja]

The super states and the population reduction goals explain a lot about the deeply damaging things going on right now but the cryogenics are the kicker if I thought I could achieve immortality I would want an uncluttered world too with vast wilderness areas and mega cities of genetically altered "happy" human surfs. Well not me personally but I get the allure for the elite.

[W*GS]

Haven't you troofers had enough of this **** yet?

[baja]

Haven't you troofers had enough of this **** yet?

You kidding? I had enough of the ****, years ago.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Haven't you troofers had enough of this **** yet?

Haven't you had enough of swinging from Phillip Zelikow's nut sac yet?

[W*GS]

Aren't you tired of swallowing the anti-Semites' spunk?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"Anti-Semite?"

Rupert Murdoch's playbook seems to be the only one W*GS knows:

Repeat a lie often and long enough and it will become truth."

[W*GS]

LABF, you've made endless lies (endlessly repeated) the cornerstone of your presence here. You and Bush have far more in common that you can contemplate.

And with your adherence to the 9/11 troofer crap, you've completely lost any credibility or claim to sanity you may have ever had.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

W*GS with the Bill O'Liely impersonation.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Chavez?

If he wasn't sitting on all that oil, he wouldn't even show up on the radar of the kleptocrats W*GS supports, and W*GS would have never heard of him.

If Chavez was a leader who was friendly to the interests of the kleptocrats W*GS supports, then W*GS would be praising him as a great man.

But the #1 reason W*GS hates Chavez is because Chavez speaks out against Bush.

[W*GS]

But the #1 reason W*GS hates Chavez is because Chavez speaks out against Bush.

You've got it exactly backwards - you love Chavez because he speaks out against Bush. You overlook all the predations, corruption and incompetence his "leadership" has visited on the Venezuelan people. He speaks the same kind of language you do, which calls your principles into question.

[Florida_Bronco]

I try to keep an open mind about this stuff, but I'm sorry there is just no way I can see being able to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude. There would be too many people to keep quiet and too hard to keep secret and so it.

It simply defies logic if you ask me.

[baja]

I try to keep an open mind about this stuff, but I'm sorry there is just no way I can see being able to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude. There would be too many people to keep quiet and too hard to keep secret and so it.

<b>It simply defies logic if you ask me.</b>

That has always been my thinking too but three buildings coming down the way the did also defies logic and that is more difficult to explain away that some involvement other than the two planes hitting the buildings. I want an in-depth investigation and do not understand why the American people are not demanding it.

[W*GS]

I try to keep an open mind about this stuff, but I'm sorry there is just no way I can see being able to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude. There would be too many people to keep quiet and too hard to keep secret and so it.

It simply defies logic if you ask me.

Yep - the same dark forces that planned and executed 9/11 so perfectly (well, except for the demolition charges in the basement of the WTC that went off a hair before the plane impacts) couldn't figure out how to plant WMDs in Iraq and thus justify that quagmire.

It's doublethink at its finest.

[DomCasual]

So, George W. Bush is so dumb, he can hardly complete a literate sentence.

But, he's so smart, he can mastermind the greatest conspiracy, by far, in world history?

???

Seriously, a few of you will be dismissive of me even mentioning such flaws in logic.

That's okay.

I guess.

[Spider]

I try to keep an open mind about this stuff, but I'm sorry there is just no way I can see being able to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude. There would be too many people to keep quiet and too hard to keep secret and so it.

It simply defies logic if you ask me.

why would so many people be involved ? I seriously doubt , that many people are in the inner circle of the day to day operations ......never let the left hand know what the right hand is doing .... people could be willful participants and never know

[Spider]

So, George W. Bush is so dumb, he can hardly complete a literate sentence.

But, he's so smart, he can mastermind the greatest conspiracy, by far, in world history?

???

Seriously, a few of you will be dismissive of me even mentioning such flaws in logic.

That's okay.

I guess.

living proof of better to be lucky then smart ...... we all Know Bush was pre warned , he may not have planned it , but he didnt do a damn thing to stop it

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So, George W. Bush is so dumb, he can hardly complete a literate sentence.

But, he's so smart, he can mastermind the greatest conspiracy, by far, in world history?

???

Seriously, a few of you will be dismissive of me even mentioning such flaws in logic.

That's okay.

I guess.

No one has ever suggested that Bush "masterminded" the attacks.

Bush was probably just along for the ride (just like everything else in his life.)

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I try to keep an open mind about this stuff, but I'm sorry there is just no way I can see being able to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude. There would be too many people to keep quiet and too hard to keep secret and so it.

Not really.

The inner circle of black ops types who do this kind of thing for a living are hardcore believers who are battle-tested and are never going to talk.

Those on the periphery are probably compelled by fear to remain silent, e.g., controlled either by fear of being publicly humiliated (branded as kooks, etc.) or by fear of retaliation. These people are smart enough to know that if they were to come clean with what they know, then, best case scenario, they would be spurned as nutjobs and their careers and reputations would be ruined. Worst case would be retaliation against their families and themselves, etc.

[baja]

So, George W. Bush is so dumb, he can hardly complete a literate sentence.

But, he's so smart, he can mastermind the greatest conspiracy, by far, in world history?

???

Seriously, a few of you will be dismissive of me even mentioning such flaws in logic.

That's okay.

I guess.

It appears that Mr. Bush has been kept in the dark on many occasions.

[W*GS]

That has always been my thinking too but three buildings coming down the way the did also defies logic and that is more difficult to explain away that some involvement other than the two planes hitting the buildings.

Well, no. See

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_12_2007.htm

[W*GS]

The inner circle of black ops types who do this kind of thing for a living are hardcore believers who are battle-tested and are never going to talk.

You've consumed one too many action movies and/or spy novels.

Those on the periphery are probably compelled by fear to remain silent, e.g., controlled either by fear of being publicly humiliated (branded as kooks, etc.) or by fear of retaliation. These people are smart enough to know that if they were to come clean with what they know, then, best case scenario, they would be spurned as nutjobs and their careers and reputations would be ruined. Worst case would be retaliation against their families and themselves, etc.

I see. Someone's reputation and/or career is more important than 3,000 people dead. Others have sacrificed as much or more for far less - so what makes these people enough-in-the-know so different? You're like gaffney and his claims that NY firefighters were being kept from speaking out because they might lose their jobs. It's a ridiculous stretch.

As for threats against families, is there not one person, say an older guy, who has no family and thus such threats wouldn't work?

You've run into one of the bigger problems with the MIHOP troofer crap - that people would have to act much differently than we already know how they act in analogous situations. The MIHOP case just doesn't withstand scrutiny.

[TheDave]

How does the phrase go...

The only way for 3 people to keep a secret, is if 2 of them are dead...

[Spider]

How does the phrase go...

The only way for 3 people to keep a secret, is if 2 of them are dead...

Come on .........we all know Bush as his ilk masterminded 9-11 cause they was about to get sued for illegal downloads on their Ipods ....... pay attention already

[TheDave]

Come on .........we all know Bush as his ilk masterminded 9-11 cause they was about to get sued for illegal downloads on their Ipods ....... pay attention already

True... but I thought it had more to do with them being caught skimming off the top of the UNICEF carton.

[Spider]

True... but I thought it had more to do with them being caught skimming off the top of the UNICEF carton.
that Was clinton ;D

[baja]

None the less there was never more than a superficial investigation into the most deadly attack on American soil in history which left a lot of questions unanswered and that seems suspicious to a lot of people including me.

[Denver Crush]

Mark me as another who questions the official story of 9/11. There are far too many things that don't make sense according to the story we have been fed.

[W*GS]

What questions about 9/11 are there?

[baja]

What questions about 9/11 are there?

Why none WAG*S, after an exhaustive and through investigation by third party specialists all questions concerning the attack of 9/11 have been answered to everyone's satisfaction.

Goggling "unanswered questions 9/11 you get 254,000 references.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=unanswered+questions+about+9/11&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[W*GS]

Why none WAG*S, after an exhaustive and through investigation by third party specialists all questions concerning the attack of 9/11 have been answered to everyone's satisfaction.

Well, since "everyone" includes loonies like gaffney and LABF, the above obviously cannot happen.

Let's restrict the "everyone" to "everyone reasonable", and leave out the "the planes were holographic projections", "Flight 72 landed in Cleveland", and "they used mininukes" nutjobs.

[baja]

Well, since "everyone" includes loonies like gaffney and LABF, the above obviously cannot happen.

Let's restrict the "everyone" to "everyone reasonable", and leave out the "the planes were holographic projections", "Flight 72 landed in Cleveland", and "they used mininukes" nutjobs.

I think both Mark and LABF would accept the results of a thorough investigation conducted by third party experts as would most now questioning the current superficial incomplete report that the current administration is asking us to swallow.

[TheDave]

I think both Mark and LABF would accept the results of a thorough investigation conducted by third party experts as would most now questioning the current superficial incomplete report that the current administration is asking us to swallow.

Only if the result was of the Uber Conspiracy type... Both have had point after point after point countered with not some much as an inch given.

Hell one of those 2 has gone as far as creating a "Red Mercury" based Fusion weapon that was mysteriously used to pull this off...

[baja]

Well let's see if they respond to my assumption and your accusation.

[W*GS]

I think both Mark and LABF would accept the results of a thorough investigation conducted by third party experts as would most now questioning the current superficial incomplete report that the current administration is asking us to swallow.

gaffney and LABF won't accept any report that doesn't "prove" their beliefs in total - because anything less than that would merely be evidence that the reach of the cabal "responsible" is nearly infinite.

That's the nice thing about conspiratorial whackjobs like gaffney and LABF - any fact (no matter how well substantiated and credible) that doesn't support their lunacy is just evidence of how deep and sinister the conspiracy and conspiracists are. They're free to disclaim anything and anyone that fails to fit their beliefs as active players, dupes, or somehow gotten to by the evil ones. They can easily ignore the most obvious in favor of the most arcane.

As such, no investigation that points to anything other than planned and executed involvement by the Bush administration (or those who really pull its strings) will be acceptable. None.

[Bronco Bob]

I think both Mark and LABF would accept the results of a thorough investigation conducted by third party experts as would most now questioning the current superficial incomplete report that the current administration is asking us to swallow.

I am extremely doubtful that Gaffney would accept any explanation
that goes against his tin hat theories.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I think both Mark and LABF would accept the results of a thorough investigation conducted by third party experts as would most now questioning the current superficial incomplete report that the current administration is asking us to swallow.

Exactly.

It's hard to understand how people who normally wouldn't trust this administration any further than they could piss in a straight line are willing to accept an investigation overseen by a man who was part of the Bush transition team and who helped craft Bush's pre-emptive war strategy and Iraq policy as the "whole truth and nothing but the truth." (Not to mention that the co-chairman was the same guy who was brought in to whitewash Iran-Contra.)

[Bronco Bob]

Exactly.

It's hard to understand how people who normally wouldn't trust this administration any further than they could piss in a straight line are willing to accept an investigation overseen by a man who was part of the Bush transition team and who helped craft Bush's pre-emptive war strategy and Iraq policy as the "whole truth and nothing but the truth." (Not to mention that the co-chairman was the same guy who was brought in to whitewash Iran-Contra.)

If it were just that, you Troofers might have a point. But when every
legitimate scientist and engineer contradicts the Troofer claims and
every Troofer claim has been debunked as ignorance, fudging the
data, or outright lies, it's obvious the Troofers have some other agenda
than just the truth.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

If it were just that, you Troofers might have a point. But when every
legitimate scientist and engineer contradicts the Troofer claims and
every Troofer claim has been debunked as ignorance, fudging the
data, or outright lies, it's obvious the Troofers have some other agenda
than just the truth.

Contradicting a claim is not the same thing as successfully refuting it.

It's just silly to dismiss legitimate scientists like Steven Jones as "kooks" just because you don't like their conclusions.

And your habit of branding anyone who questions the official story with the same epithet, i.e., "troofer," suggests that you too have some other agenda besides the truth.

[Bronco Bob]

Contradicting a claim is not the same thing as successfully refuting it.


Ah, yes it is. If you claim demons cause insanity and I offer a contradictory claim that insanity is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain and
prescribe medicines that correct this imbalance, that successfully refutes
your claim.



It's just silly to dismiss legitimate scientists like Steven Jones as "kooks" just because you don't like their conclusions.


It's not a matter of liking or not liking, it's a matter of showing his claims
are complete BS.



And your habit of branding anyone who questions the official story with the same epithet, i.e., "troofer," suggests that you too have some other agenda besides the truth.

You mean like not letting nonsense pass without challenging it?
That sort of an agneda?

When the Bushies start spouting nonsense about Iraqi WMDs were
sent to Syria, I challenge that. When the Troofers start spouting
nonsense about thermate (sic) residue, I challenge that too.

[Chupacabra]

This truther stuff always brings me back to the South Park episode "Mystery of the Urinal Deuce" when George W. Bush admits to 9/11 being an inside job:

"Yes. Quite simple to pull off, really. All I had to do was have explosives planted at the base of the towers, then on 9-11 we pretended like four planes were being hijacked when really we just rerouted them to Pennsylvania then flew two military jets into the World Trade Center filled with more explosives and shot down all the witnesses in Flight 93 with an F-15 after blowing up the pentagon with a cruise missile. It was only the world's most intricate and flawlessly executed plan ever, ever."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ah, yes it is. If you claim demons cause insanity and I offer a contradictory claim that insanity is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain and
prescribe medicines that correct this imbalance, that successfully refutes
your claim.

But so far the apologists for the official account have not met their burden of proof.


It's not a matter of liking or not liking, it's a matter of showing his claims
are complete BS.

Which the apologists for the BushCo account have not done.


You mean like not letting nonsense pass without challenging it?
That sort of an agneda?


How about nonsense like "the collapse of WTC7 was caused by debris from the twin towers falling on it?"

[Bronco Bob]

But so far the apologists for the official account have not met their burden of proof.

Which the apologists for the BushCo account have not done.



I'm not interested in what the apologists for Bushco did or didn't do.
I'm only pointing out that the Troofers have failed to present
any credible evidence that 9/11 was an inside job.




How about nonsense like "the collapse of WTC7 was caused by debris from the twin towers falling on it?"

It's only nonsense to the people who have made their minds up that
was an inside job without bothering to read how debris brought down
WTC7. But then anything that doesn't support the Troofer agenda
is instantly dismissed as nonsense by the Troofers.

[Chupacabra]

It's only nonsense to the people who have made their minds up that
was an inside job without bothering to read how debris brought down
WTC7. But then anything that doesn't support the Troofer agenda
is instantly dismissed as nonsense by the Troofers.

Conspiracy theorists, when confronted with full proof evidence contradicting thier imaginative stories, simply denounce the source of truth as being a part of the conspiracy.

[mhgaffney]

I have pointed on this board many times that we have never had a genuine 911 investigation. Both the 911 commission and the NIST investigation were controlled by the Bush administration.

Do the knee jerks on this board doubt this?

In 2004 a long list of Nobel laureates blasted the Bush White House for falsifying scientific reports -- It happened on global warming (now ephemistically called climate change), on lead poisoning, Kyoto, and G-D only knows what all else.

Yet, clowns like Bronco Bob and W*gs and the Dave remain blissfully ignorant about any of this and are willing to give Bush a pass on 9/11.

As I also mentioned, as a result of independent scientific research, we now know thermate was used to bring the towers down. The residues of explosives are always present after a demolition -- and this was also true of the WTC. Thermate leaves a distinctive chemical signature -- and this was found in the dust. There is no mistake.

You bozos who never crack a book need to go to www.journalof911studies.com and read Steven Jones's May 2007 paper.

Then let's talk about it.

As I said -- NIST could easily have found this evidence -- if it had looked.





that Steven Jones found

[TheDave]

Gaff you are easily the most intellectually dishonest dult to ever grace these pages. Time and again your fantasies have been proven to be false, poorly thought out, and usually outright fabrications. Yet instead of engaging in any type of honest conversation you continue to spam the board with more paranoid BS. On the rare occasion that you do engage in conversation and are cornered you usually just slink away only to come back and post new threads of paranoia a few days later.

[W*GS]

But then anything that doesn't support the Troofer agenda is instantly dismissed as nonsense by the Troofers.

Indeed - no matter how factual or reasonable it is, and how irrational and unreasonable their substitutes are.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yet, clowns like Bronco Bob and W*gs and the Dave remain blissfully ignorant about any of this and are willing to give Bush a pass on 9/11.


That's the part I don't understand.

Those guys are all highly intelligent people who, with the exception of W*GS, normally wouldn't trust this administration if Bush told them Denver was the capital of Colorado, but when it comes to 9/11, a commission created and stage managed by BushCo loyalists and insiders is supposedly unassailable.

It makes no sense. ???

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You bozos who never crack a book need to go to www.journalof911studies.com and read Steven Jones's May 2007 paper.

Then let's talk about it.


That I would like to see.

(But I'm not holding my breath.)

[baja]

That's the part I don't understand.

Those guys are all highly intelligent people who, with the exception of W*GS, normally wouldn't trust this administration if Bush told them Denver was the capital of Colorado, but when it comes to 9/11, a commission created and stage managed by BushCo loyalists and insiders is supposedly unassailable.

It makes no sense. ???

It is too scary for most to not believe the government's version. Intelligence has nothing to do with this.

[Rohirrim]

That's the part I don't understand.

Those guys are all highly intelligent people who, with the exception of W*GS, normally wouldn't trust this administration if Bush told them Denver was the capital of Colorado, but when it comes to 9/11, a commission created and stage managed by BushCo loyalists and insiders is supposedly unassailable.

It makes no sense. ???

Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".
This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

The conspiracy theories of 911 not only require assumptions (and co-conspirators, ie. "entities") almost beyond number, but for every assumption destroyed by facts, new assumptions arise as if from the ethers. It has absolutely nothing to do with Bush. My readings on the subject have not included anyone within the Bush administration or its dog and pony show commission.

What I find difficult to believe is that a so-called intelligent person would accept the idea that the most inept, unintelligent, and incompetent administration in the history of the U.S. could flawlessly pull off the largest and most convoluted conspiracy in the history of mankind. The CIA couldn't even cover its own ass in something as petty (comparatively) as Abu Ghraib.

The simplest explanation, which requires the fewest number of assumptions, is this: Directly due to the incompetence, stupidity and arrogance of George Bush and his staff of hand-picked incompetents (especially Rice and Cheney) a simple minded plot carried out by dedicated zealots on 911 was allowed to happen on Bush's watch. The criminal incompetence of the Bush administration has been further supported by the monumental cowardice of the opposing party in Congress to bring him and his staff of incompetent liars and traitors to justice and a corporate owned media more interested in Brittany's crotch than in any attempt at (far more costly) investigative journalism.

Over the last seven years we have witnessed from our government a perfect storm of incompetence, greed, cowardice, arrogance, avarice, treason and pettiness with the full fledged assistance of a pathetic media and a failed Congress. I'm sure Bush and his cronies are relieved to see so many Americans wrapped up in the pursuit of ridiculous conspiracy theories as it simply enhances their opportunity to escape true justice. In other words, those who noisily pursue lies divert attention from the silent truths.

[baja]

Give me the 'simple' answer to 2 questions than Ro.

1. Why has the government not released the videos of the plane hitting pentagon it would put to rest all this with one photo that we know they have.

2. Why was there never a third party thorough investigation of the site of the WTC after 9/11 this would have put to rest some of the anguish and doubt of the firefighters and the survivors of the victims. Do they not deserve a full investigation and would it not be good for the country in these times of polarization.

[Garcia Bronco]

The plane hit the pentagon. My friend that works there saw it. He's a desktop PC support guy.

[alkemical]

IMO - the "LIHoP" theory is pretty simple.

[Bronco Bob]

Give me the 'simple' answer to 2 questions than Ro.

1. Why has the government not released the videos of the plane hitting pentagon it would put to rest all this with one photo that we know they have.


What video? It was a plane traveling hundreds of miles an hour.
Just how many frames and how clear an image of a plane crashing
into the Pentagon would you expect to see?
That's the problem I have with the Troofers version of 9/11, they have
no scientific knowledge to understand how things work. They hear the
word video and they automatically assume they are going to see pictures
like some sort of NFL slow-mo replay with an airplane slowly creeping
into the building.


2. Why was there never a third party thorough investigation of the site of the WTC after 9/11 this would have put to rest some of the anguish and doubt of the firefighters and the survivors of the victims. Do they not deserve a full investigation and would it not be good for the country in these times of polarization.

Define 3rd party. Every independent organization that has looked into
9/11 and disagrees with the Troofer accounts of events, such as
Popular Mechanics, is immediately dismissed by the Troofers as being
in on the conspiracy. Tell me who would conduct such a 3rd party
investigation that would be acceptable to the Troofers.

[baja]

The plane hit the pentagon. My friend that works there saw it. He's a desktop PC support guy.

You know a guy that saw it, well my Internet friend that I never met and seldom agree with that works for me, I'll sleep better now.

[baja]

What video? It was a plane traveling hundreds of miles an hour.
Just how many frames and how clear an image of a plane crashing
into the Pentagon would you expect to see?
That's the problem I have with the Troofers version of 9/11, they have
no scientific knowledge to understand how things work. They hear the
word video and they automatically assume they are going to see pictures
like some sort of NFL slow-mo replay with an airplane slowly creeping
into the building.

OK, show what was confiscated from the surrounding business', that's all I want.

Define 3rd party. Every independent organization that has looked into
9/11 and disagrees with the Troofer accounts of events, such as
Popular Mechanics, is immediately dismissed by the Troofers as being
in on the conspiracy. Tell me who would conduct such a 3rd party
investigation that would be acceptable to the Troofers.

Bush reluctantly authorized a couple of million and appointed his friend to head up the investigation. That doesn't work for me I wanted a investigative panel on the ground on 9/12 We Americans deserved no less.

[alkemical]

OK, show what was confiscated from the surrounding business', that's all I want.



Bush reluctantly authorized a couple of million and appointed his friend to head up the investigation. That doesn't work for me I wanted a investigative panel on the ground on 9/12 We Americans deserved no less.

Yeah, but the sad thing baja - is we got the gov't we deserve.

[baja]

By the way I think government involvement is a stretch but we the people deserve answers

[baja]

Yeah, but the sad thing baja - is we got the gov't we deserve.

I agree but for the second term only.

[alkemical]

I agree but for the second term only.

no, i look at it much further back. If people didn't get so "used" to the taste of crap, they would have demanded better people in gov't a looooong time ago.

[baja]

no, i look at it much further back. If people didn't get so "used" to the taste of crap, they would have demanded better people in gov't a looooong time ago.

Well you now finally have a candidate that has a mandate to change all that, vote Ron Paul.

[mhgaffney]

I have challenged the users of this board with facts and once again the zero response reverberates like a fart echo in the wind.

I'll say it again: high temperature explosives used in demolishing buildings always leave residues.

It is standard forensic protocol to test for such residues after major fires and after crimes involving explosions -- or even the suspicion of explosions. Ths is standard procedure.

There were at least 118 NYC firemen, paramedics, and emergency medical technicians present at the WTC on 9/11 who reported seeing, hearing and feeling explosions. This is not a fantasy -- as the Dave suggests -- it is a fact. The testionials are now posted at the NY TImes web site for anyone to read.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

The NIST and 9/11 Commission knew about these witnesses. Both NIST and the official panel obtained the transcripts of this material from the city of New York. They had the testimony -- yet there is no mention of any of it in the 911 Commission Report. Nor does NIST mention these histories in its 2005 report.

Indeed, for this reason NIST lied when it stated that it found no evidence of explosions. It had the evidence -- 118 eyewitness accounts -- yet covered it up.

This is undoubtedly also why NIST failed to test for residues. They were not seeking the truth -- but intead were seeking to cover it up.

And you clowns swallow whatever Big Brother tells you like a bunch of brainwashed chimps.

In the last 1-2 years a handful of independent and honest scientists -- such as Steven Jones, a world class physcist -- have stepped into the void and on a shoe string have done some extremely important research.

Earlier this year Jones obtained an original dust sample from the WTC and found thermate residues in the dust. He found an abundance of iron rich spheres -- tiny spheres of iron -- which had been melted -- then solidified. So we have the decisive proof that steel did melt on 9/11 -- despite the official denials and also the denials of knee jerks like Bronco Bob.

X-ray spectroscopy of these spheres also turned up sulfur, aluminum and copper in the proportions expected with thermate. This is the chemical signature of thermate and is unique to it.

Thermate and thermite were developed by the US military. There is no chance that Al Qaida did this. The only people with access to the WTC were Americans. So obviously Americans did this to us. It was not foreigners. Face the truth -- however paindful.

The towers were brought down by planted explosives -- and I am challenging all of you to read the report. The title is "Revisiting 9/11/2001 - Applying the scientfic method," May 2007 by S Jones -- posted at

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

[mhgaffney]

These are the facts -- now deal with them

[mhgaffney]

Here's what an iron rich sphere looks like. These were found in the WTC dust by the USGS, by S. Jones and by another independent study (L.J. Lee Group).

I'd post the photo but the file size is too large for this board:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/images/IRON-04-IMAGE.TIF

[W*GS]

These are the facts -- now deal with them

I'm with loved ones and family on this wonderful Christmas.

For you, gaffney - go to hell.

[mhgaffney]

Here's more hard evidence. In this photo you are looking at molten iron pouring out of the side of the south tower -- minutes before it collapsed.

NIST claimed ths was molten aluminum -- but this is impossible -- molten aluminum is silver in color.

NIST tried to get around this problem by claiming the molten aluminum was mixed with burning organic materials. But NIST presented absolutely no evidence for this claim. Steven Jones became curious and tested the idea in a laboratory. But when he mixed wood, pieces of carpet etc with aluminum and melted it the silver color persisted -- nor did the organic materials mix readily with the molten aluminum.

S Jones concluded that the molten metal in this photo is molten iron -- from the WTC steel. Molten iron is much hotter than molten aluminum -- and is incandescent. This explains the color. The photo is compelling evidence for the use of thermate -- steel cutting high temperature explosives

Do you believe your eyes? 911 was obviously an inside job.

[W*GS]

gaffney, it's Christmas.

Instead of spreading bull****, spread good things around...

In any case, you're a piece of work.

[W*GS]

BTW, gaffney and the other troofer ****heads:

http://debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

[mhgaffney]

BTW, gaffney and the other troofer ****heads:

http://debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

Everyone please do check out this DISINFO site.

W*gs is so weak on the science he can't even tell when he's being goosed.

The disnfo crew that did this site are really good at presenting false information. That's what DISINFO is all about.

But if you look close you can tell they are lying. How can we tell? They state:

"The next piece of evidence they [S Jones and 911 truthers] point to is the color, which is a bright yellow at the center. They say aluminum is silver when melted. While this is true, at higher temperatures it can be yellow."

This is where the rubber meets the road. It's a lie! Remember, aluminum melts at around 1200 F -- yet the color of the molten metal pouring from the south tower is white-yellow-orange in color. This means its temperature is 1800-2000+ F.

But if you melt aluminum it will NOT increase in temperature beyond 1200 F. NO, as it becomes a liquid it will flow away from the heat source. It will NOT rise further in temperature.

It is possible to raise it higher with more heat -- but you must first put it in a container. Was there a container on 911? Of course not. You can only do this in a laboratory with controlled conditions.

Furthermore, even if you do raise the liquid aluminum to 1800 F -- aluminum is by its nature is low in emissivity and high in reflectivity. This means it will only faintly glow. It will NOT be bright like the molten metal in the photo. No, this brightness is typical of molten iron -- not aluminum.

The color does not lie and speaks truly about ths important evidence.

[W*GS]

Everyone please do check out this DISINFO site.

It's not a disinformation site. It's not a front for the FBI/CIA/NSA/SOB/BFD.

As for color, your posts only come in one - **** brown.

[DomCasual]

Geez, gaffney. You were ripping on Mormons the other day, and now you're quoting Stephen Jones like crazy. Stephen Jones was an engineering professor at BYU, and is very Mormon.

All these signs. I think you're supposed to be a Mormon.

I'm just saying.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Everyone please do check out this DISINFO site.

W*gs is so weak on the science he can't even tell when he's being goosed.

The disnfo crew that did this site are really good at presenting false information. That's what DISINFO is all about.


:yep:

W*GS has been sucking back that disinfo for so long now he can no longer distinguish fact from fiction.

[W*GS]

LABF, the irony of you lecturing anyone about fact and fiction is just too much.

[The Lone Bolt]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/smilies/zzz.gif

[elsid13]

OK, show what was confiscated from the surrounding business', that's all I want.




What surrounding business??? 395 hides the Pentagon from Pentagon City and rest of the area is either parking lots or the back of Arlington Cemetery

[Bronco Bob]

What surrounding business??? 395 hides the Pentagon from Pentagon City and rest of the area is either parking lots or the back of Arlington Cemetery

Since when did the Troofers ever let facts get in the way of the Troof?

[Rohirrim]

I vote that whenever we discuss 9/11 we use the word, "Troof." ;D

[orangeatheist]

I have challenged the users of this board with facts and once again the zero response reverberates like a fart echo in the wind.

And so has your acceptance of the invitation to come here:

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

Register and enjoy!

I tried to get the folks over there to come here to paste you but Taco had new registration turned off at the time and so no one could join. Why are you wasting your time on a bunch of football fans? Why don't you try to peddle your wares to an audience far more capable in expertise to evaluate your paranoia?

[The Lone Bolt]

And so has your acceptance of the invitation to come here:

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64

Register and enjoy!

I tried to get the folks over there to come here to paste you but Taco had new registration turned off at the time and so no one could join. Why are you wasting your time on a bunch of football fans? Why don't you try to peddle your wares to an audience far more capable in expertise to evaluate your paranoia?

Because alll of the qualified academics and professionals are either "afraid to speak out", "brainwashed by US Gov't media", or "part of the conspiracy." ALL of them.

Convenient for Gaffney eh? That way he can dismiss the opinions of experts who would easily torpedo his arguments.

[W*GS]

There were at least 118 NYC firemen, paramedics, and emergency medical technicians present at the WTC on 9/11 who reported seeing, hearing and feeling explosions.

Sounds like "explosions" does not equal "explosives".

This is the standard tactic you and the other troofers take - unreasonably and irrationally extrapolate from one factoid to the grand idea.

[Bronco Bob]

Sounds like "explosions" does not equal "explosives".

This is the standard tactic you and the other troofers take - unreasonably and irrationally extrapolate from one factoid to the grand idea.

Just like they insist kerosene doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel
so therefore the steel beams didn't become too weak to support the
buildings.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Sounds like "explosions" does not equal "explosives".

This argument sounds ridiculous when there are hundreds of accounts by first responders who heard/felt explosions throughout the buildings.

You are basically trying to argue that all of these people don't know what they're talking about.

[W*GS]

This argument sounds ridiculous when there are hundreds of accounts by first responders who heard/felt explosions throughout the buildings.

You are basically trying to argue that all of these people don't know what they're talking about.

No. Hearing or feeling something that sounds like an explosion doesn't mean that there was an explosion, and even if it was a genuine explosion, that doesn't mean the building was demolished by explosives.

It's no wonder you troofers can't prove your argument - you don't even understand how to counter the simplest point against it.

[mhgaffney]

Geez, gaffney. You were ripping on Mormons the other day, and now you're quoting Stephen Jones like crazy. Stephen Jones was an engineering professor at BYU, and is very Mormon.

All these signs. I think you're supposed to be a Mormon.

I'm just saying.

Look, Dom, I own a copy of the Book Of Morman because your fellow religionists are so keen on converting the world that one of them handed it to me.

Do you blame me for actually reading it?

It's obviously a fake scripture -- cooked up -- and while I support everyone's right to believe and worship as they please, I have to wonder: how do you conjure up a true religion based on a phony holy book?

OK. That said - -- I couldn't care less about S Jones's personal theology -- because this thread is about science and S Jones happens to be a world class physicist.

We are talking science here. At any rate, I am.

For what it's worth, however, I have seen Jones on video and I can tell you he knows his Scripture. I do not mean the Book of Mormon -- I mean Isaiah, who once upn a time made a prophetic reference to dust.

Jones naturally drew the connection to the WTC. He's been studying that variety -- and finding 911 truth.

Unlike the Book of Mormon -- the WTC dust does NOT lie.

[mhgaffney]

Just like they insist kerosene doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel
so therefore the steel beams didn't become too weak to support the
buildings.

You state it correctly. The max temp you can get from Kerosene is around 1840 F.

That's tops. Not nearly hot enough to melt steel. Not even close.

In fact, under no circumstances could any fuel in the WTC or in the planes melt steel. Yet we have plenty of evidence that steel did melt. In addition to the witnesses, we have the iron rich spheres, the slag found in the hole, appendix C of the FEMA report (which found that steel flanges had been evaporated), and another separate study by L.J. Lee, which Jones discusses in his paper.

Did you read it, Bob?

LJ Lee found evidence in the WTC dust that lead had actually boiled -- then condensed on various fibres. But boiling lead requires a temp of 3100 F.

What heat source did this, Bronco?

Remember, thermate burns at 4500 F -- hot enough to explain all of the strange phenomenon we have been discussing from 911.