Shanahan faces an offseason overhaul

[dragondawg]

By Dave Krieger, Rocky Mountain News

You can imagine how excited The Worldwide Leader must be about its big AFC West showdown on Christmas Eve.

Broncos at Chargers. Monday Night Football. Santa reconfiguring his GPS unit.

Isn't this what the flex schedule was for?

It's not just Mike, Jaws and Tony who will have to find ways to fill time. The Broncos will, too. They aren't used to this.

Having been eliminated from the playoff chase with two games to play, those games mean nothing to them except draft position, which will improve if they lose them both.

The Broncos' Christmas wish list has seldom been longer. They are no longer in a position to trade away draft picks for the privilege of moving up in the first round, as they have each of the past two years.

Mike Shanahan hates to look ahead to next year until this year is over. Well, this year is over, whatever the schedule says. And Shanahan faces some big questions:

* What to do about Jim Bates?

The Broncos brought in Bates this season as assistant head coach/defense with considerable fanfare. It was reminiscent of the hiring of Ray Rhodes, another "name" defensive guru, and it had to work out better than that. Didn't it?

Um, no. Rhodes lasted two years. The Broncos have largely abandoned Bates' principles. Ironically, secondary coach Bob Slowik, who got the defensive coordinator title because Bates required something more impressive, is now actually coordinating the defense.

Shanahan seldom admits mistakes this quickly, but after this year's defensive collapse, it's hard to come up with a reason to bring Bates back.

* What to do about Scott O'Brien?

The Broncos brought in O'Brien this season as special teams coach to somewhat less fanfare than Bates, but they were hoping to add a little excitement to their transition game.

That much he certainly did.

On the bright side, O'Brien taught them how to get the field goal team lined up in record time.

On the dim side, Bears return man Devin Hester now has O'Brien on his Christmas card list. You'll be seeing the video from that one for years, sort of like the video of the Broncos waving at Corey Dillon as he set the single-game rushing record until his mark mercifully was broken.

Of course, if Bates goes, O'Brien might get a reprieve. It's hard to imagine Shanahan admitting two mistakes the same year.

* What to do at linebacker?

Al Wilson is not coming through that door. Ian Gold is a shadow of his former self. That leaves D.J. Williams, who may or may not belong in the middle, where he was moved this year to replace Wilson.

Although Williams has made the best of a bad situation, the single biggest upgrade the Broncos could make might be to bring in a legitimate middle linebacker who would allow Williams to move to the weak side and create a little havoc.

In any case, they need an upgrade over Nate Webster on the strong side. Anyway you look at it, this unit needs a makeover.

* What to do on the defensive line?

Because of their needs at linebacker, it's possible the Broncos will cross their fingers and hope that three 2007 draft choices - Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder and Marcus Thomas - will blossom into playmakers.

It's something of a gamble since none of them exactly jumped off the page in their rookie seasons. But you can only fix so many things in one offseason, and it's unlikely Shanahan will devote two drafts in a row to the same area.

* What to do in the secondary?

Let's face it - "shutdown" corners are largely wasted in a bad defense. The NFL doesn't see many big trades anymore, but Shanahan made two when he acquired Champ Bailey and Dre Bly. If he doesn't have enough draft picks or free agent money to fill all his team's holes, might it be worth dealing a corner or two to help restock the cupboard?

All these questions and we haven't even talked about the offensive line, where the assumption seems to be that Tom Nalen will return and fix everything. Nalen will be 37 this spring. There are not many teams building lines around 37-year-old centers.

Even if Nalen can give them another year or two, the Broncos have succession issues. Ben Hamilton's season-ending concussion puts his football future in doubt.

Pass protection was a problem this year, but the Broncos have so many other areas of need, they may have to count on improvement from youngsters Chris Myers, Chris Kuper, Erik Pears and Ryan Harris.

Nor have we discussed veterans such as Travis Henry and Todd Sauerbrun, who make more news off the field than on it. Maybe the Broncos need to improve their karma quotient.

In any case, the last two games of the season become the first two games of next year's preseason.

Oh, joy. In the NFL, as you know, you can never have too many preseason games.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/17/krieger-broncos-offseason-full-questions-lets-get-/

[NASurfer]

Largely no mention of the DT position... Wow.

Going into this season I was so worried about the lack of attention given to the interior of the defense (and no, rolling the dice on Adams and Kennedy doesn't count as 'significant' attention). Maybe someone here knows... but I do wonder if Bates just told Shanny that we could just get by with what he had.

We better not ignore our DTs this offseason like this article just did.

[Don Flamenco]

By Dave Krieger, Rocky Mountain News



* What to do about Jim Bates?

The Broncos brought in Bates this season as assistant head coach/defense with considerable fanfare. It was reminiscent of the hiring of Ray Rhodes, another "name" defensive guru, and it had to work out better than that. Didn't it?

Um, no. Rhodes lasted two years. The Broncos have largely abandoned Bates' principles. Ironically, secondary coach Bob Slowik, who got the defensive coordinator title because Bates required something more impressive, is now actually coordinating the defense.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/17/krieger-broncos-offseason-full-questions-lets-get-/

Wow

Can anyone confirm this?

[Popcorn Sutton]

Wow

Can anyone confirm this?

I was going to ask the same question. If so, it seems inevitable that Bates will be gone after the season.

[Ratboy]

We're in a big need of an Offensive Line, Middle Linebacker, and another Defensive Tackle (I'd go to Free Agency for this).

[theAPAOps5]

Slowik has always been the "coodinator". He was coordinating Bates scheme. They changed the scheme. Its not like Slowik just took the reigns. Its like Dennison he is the OC but Dinger is up the box clearly configuring plays.

The model of HC, DC, and OC is getting blown out of the water. Since there is no cap on coaches you can hire as many as you want. More teams are going to this.

I think Bates better be given a year and he better have a say on the Defensive moves this offseason. His D works with the right personnel. But Shanny has failed to set him up for success.

Its really going to be a process with the situation we are in. Having to make up for past drafts and throw money around in FA or trades and new contracts have placed the team in a tight spot.

I doubt Bates is gone unless he leaves. O'Brian well that may be a different story his ST just does not play fundamental ST's. THey don't shed blocks they don't tackle and they don't have that swagger.

This might be a 2 year project folks. Patience is going to be paramount.

[dbfan21]

Slowik has always been the "coodinator". He was coordinating Bates scheme. They changed the scheme. Its not like Slowik just took the reigns. Its like Dennison he is the OC but Dinger is up the box clearly configuring plays.

The model of HC, DC, and OC is getting blown out of the water. Since there is no cap on coaches you can hire as many as you want. More teams are going to this.

I think Bates better be given a year and he better have a say on the Defensive moves this offseason. His D works with the right personnel. But Shanny has failed to set him up for success.

Its really going to be a process with the situation we are in. Having to make up for past drafts and throw money around in FA or trades and new contracts have placed the team in a tight spot.

I doubt Bates is gone unless he leaves. O'Brian well that may be a different story his ST just does not play fundamental ST's. THey don't shed blocks they don't tackle and they don't have that swagger.

This might be a 2 year project folks. Patience is going to be paramount.

I agree with you on this. Bates' system did not develop overnight in GB or Miami, so a second year will be necessary to see itself through to fruition. If next year's defense is just as bad, then it will be time to cut bait.

O'Brien can be replaced. Special Teams is not a huge overhaul like offense or defense. I am surprised that Sauerbrun did not do well this year. He got his wish to come back to Denver and did not make the most of his opportunity. He got in trouble with the law and almost every one of his kickoffs did not reach the end zone. Plus, his ego got the best of him and he kicked to Hester. I bet he had visions of the playoff game vs the Pats and he thought he'd force a fumble or something.

IMHO, the biggest problem with this team is attitude. There is no killer instinct within the coaching staff and, as a result, the players. I don't care what you say, that type of attitude starts at the top. It's like when Denver lost to Jax in 96. Shanahan came back pissed and ready to eat teams alive.

We need to get that back. When we are on offense and in the red zone, we need to think TOUCHDOWN and not JUST GET SOME POINTS. On defense, we need to add some young personnel that are vocal leaders. That was something that Al Wilson was great at.

I pray the FO makes the right moves this offseason and we can get back to prominance.

Go Broncos!!

[lex]

By Dave Krieger, Rocky Mountain News



* What to do in the secondary?

Let's face it - "shutdown" corners are largely wasted in a bad defense. The NFL doesn't see many big trades anymore, but Shanahan made two when he acquired Champ Bailey and Dre Bly. If he doesn't have enough draft picks or free agent money to fill all his team's holes, might it be worth dealing a corner or two to help restock the cupboard?

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/17/krieger-broncos-offseason-full-questions-lets-get-/


I hate to say I told you so but...

[defenseman]

Slowik has always been the "coodinator". He was coordinating Bates scheme. They changed the scheme. Its not like Slowik just took the reigns. Its like Dennison he is the OC but Dinger is up the box clearly configuring plays.

The model of HC, DC, and OC is getting blown out of the water. Since there is no cap on coaches you can hire as many as you want. More teams are going to this.

I think Bates better be given a year and he better have a say on the Defensive moves this offseason. His D works with the right personnel. But Shanny has failed to set him up for success.

Its really going to be a process with the situation we are in. Having to make up for past drafts and throw money around in FA or trades and new contracts have placed the team in a tight spot.

I doubt Bates is gone unless he leaves. O'Brian well that may be a different story his ST just does not play fundamental ST's. THey don't shed blocks they don't tackle and they don't have that swagger.

This might be a 2 year project folks. Patience is going to be paramount.

Patience? Why? Patience with incompetence? Sorry, there are those on the bronco staff who have absolutely solidified their position wrt "incompetence". I wouldn't consider the coordinator of the special teams nor the defense competent, would you? I have no patience with either, and failure was never a palatable part of my staple diet. Can them both, NOW...dman

[Mediator12]

Bates Scheme is DL dependent. He had top 5 DL talent in MIA and made GB a top 5 DL in his short tenure their. Again, to judge a DC and his scheme with no DL is not fair. Mostly, having a top 5 DL will make any scheme appear better and cover over weaknesses. What I like about Bates is he did develop Kampman and Cullen Jenkins in GB. Pair them with KGB and Justin Harrel, when healthy, and that is a stud DL that plays the run and rushes the passer.

It ALL starts up front on defense. Something Krieger should have pointed out if he had a clue.

[socalorado]

I hate to say I told you so but...

Yeah, Saw that and said the same thing. Looks like the only way DEN can make any real moves is to "move" someone.

[Beantown Bronco]

I hate to say I told you so but...

I don't think I've ever seen anyone brag about Krieger agreeing with them about something. :P

[Mediator12]

I hate to say I told you so but...

lex, you are several years too late to claim that ;D

There has been a bunch of us here who have stated that since they let Berry go after 2003, Heyward after 2004, and Pryce in 2005. They never replaced those players with another player of comparable talent. Dumervil has been a huge success as a pass rusher, but he is not any of those aforementioned versus the run and it shows.

I want to see the switch to a consistent defensive scheme. One where we can get productive DL later as we specialize their talents to do one thing very well, versus being a jack of all trades player. They would then be able to draft best available Scheme player versus just trying to draft all around studs to fit needs.

Hopefully, they address the DL and front seven in this offseason. However, they would be wise to pick a scheme and get the players that can make it work over time.

[Beantown Bronco]

Bates Scheme is DL dependent. He had top 5 DL talent in MIA and made GB a top 5 DL in his short tenure their. Again, to judge a DC and his scheme with no DL is not fair. Mostly, having a top 5 DL will make any scheme appear better and cover over weaknesses. What I like about Bates is he did develop Kampman and Cullen Jenkins in GB. Pair them with KGB and Justin Harrel, when healthy, and that is a stud DL that plays the run and rushes the passer.

It ALL starts up front on defense. Something Krieger should have pointed out if he had a clue.

Bates coached in GB for one year.....and they weren't very good. They got good after he left. Maybe Shanny is thinking the "one year and out" system could work for him too....

[Mediator12]

Bates coached in GB for one year.....and they weren't very good. They got good after he left. Maybe Shanny is thinking the "one year and out" system could work for him too....

They got better in GB as the season went along. Especially, the DL. Kampman and Cullen Jenkins turned into high end or elite DL that year. That is what I wanted to see happen this year in DEN. Take some DL with some talent and make them perform above average at least. It just did not work this year, especially as it pertains to rushing the passer. And, the run Defense went to Hell in a handbasket right quick!

I vote to let the scheme settle with a DL before making another Coaching change. Now, if he can NOT replicate the DL success after next year it might be time to replace the coaches. Until then, let's get the process right before crucifying it.

[socalorado]

They got better in GB as the season went along. Especially, the DL. Kampman and Cullen Jenkins turned into high end or elite DL that year. That is what I wanted to see happen this year in DEN. Take some DL with some talent and make them perform above average at least. It just did not work this year, especially as it pertains to rushing the passer. And, the run Defense went to Hell in a handbasket right quick!

I vote to let the scheme settle with a DL before making another Coaching change. Now, if he can NOT replicate the DL success after next year it might be time to replace the coaches. Until then, let's get the process right before crucifying it.

Agree. But would you say that the reaosn the scheme didnt work as well was because DEN just does NOT have the talent that GB has???
Is this an accurate statement to you?

[lex]

lex, you are several years too late to claim that ;D

There has been a bunch of us here who have stated that since they let Berry go after 2003, Heyward after 2004, and Pryce in 2005. They never replaced those players with another player of comparable talent. Dumervil has been a huge success as a pass rusher, but he is not any of those aforementioned versus the run and it shows.

I want to see the switch to a consistent defensive scheme. One where we can get productive DL later as we specialize their talents to do one thing very well, versus being a jack of all trades player. They would then be able to draft best available Scheme player versus just trying to draft all around studs to fit needs.

Hopefully, they address the DL and front seven in this offseason. However, they would be wise to pick a scheme and get the players that can make it work over time.

I wasnt even around here back then. I guess that means I didnt exist. No but really, I cited a variety of reasons for why trading Champ may not be a bad idea and this was one of them.

[Ratboy]

I hate to say I told you so but...

You're right! They will be trading Dominique Foxworth. Ha!

[Beantown Bronco]

They got better in GB as the season went along. Especially, the DL. Kampman and Cullen Jenkins turned into high end or elite DL that year.

I'd say that they didn't make that transition until 2006, after Bates left. But I won't claim that I watched every 2005 Green Bay game and studied the DLinemen in particular.

Either way, all I know is that Bates himself hasn't coached a top defense since 2003. Whether that is a meaningless statistic, or is the result of something more substantive....like other people learning how to attack his sytem, or him simply burning out; I don't know.

What I DO know is that his system requires a great deal of talent on the DLine in order to work against all but the absolute scrubs of the league. Coyer's defense did not require a great deal of talent on the DLine and it worked against all but the elite offenses. Imagine what it could've done if it had the DLine talent that Bates is seeking.

[Mediator12]

I wasnt even around here back then. I guess that means I didnt exist. No but really, I cited a variety of reasons for why trading Champ may not be a bad idea and this was one of them.

Hey, unlike some around here, my comment was Sarcasm hence the smilie :welcome:

Not enough humor around here in times of adversity. I made the comment in jest, not because I was serious.

[lex]

Hey, unlike some around here, my comment was Sarcasm hence the smilie :welcome:

Not enough humor around here in times of adversity. I made the comment in jest, not because I was serious.

It didnt go undetected. But I wanted to comment on it because I dont want anyone to get the idea Im claiming any of this is my idea...like its a discovery of mine. But at the same time, it was one aspect of a discussion that was had earlier where this idea was brought up.

[Mediator12]

I'd say that they didn't make that transition until 2006, after Bates left. But I won't claim that I watched every 2005 Green Bay game and studied the DLinemen in particular.

Either way, all I know is that Bates himself hasn't coached a top defense since 2003. Whether that is a meaningless statistic, or is the result of something more substantive....like other people learning how to attack his sytem, or him simply burning out; I don't know.

What I DO know is that his system requires a great deal of talent on the DLine in order to work against all but the absolute scrubs of the league. Coyer's defense did not require a great deal of talent on the DLine and it worked against all but the elite offenses. Imagine what it could've done if it had the DLine talent that Bates is seeking.

Well, it might look like the TB defense that Coyer has helped Kiffin turn around ;D Something like third in yards and tied for 1st in points against maybe :welcome:

BTW, TB defense has 3 new starters in Jovan Haye, Kevin Carter, and Greg White/Gaines Adams. Those guys were pretty unheralded and again Coyer has made them quite respectable again. He took Jovan Haye and made him a highly productive UT from playing DE his whole career. Greg White leads them in sacks and was a former NFL europe product who sat 3 years out of football. Kevin Carter was a real solid pickup for them and he has played DE/UT very well. Gaines Adams has come along nicely and is producing pretty well for a stud rookie DE. He is peaking right now and earning PT through his play, not his draft status.

Coyer just had a knack for putting parts together on the DL and making it acceptable. They ALWAYS struggled against elite teams though, because they did not have the talent to win one on one. How anyone could blame him for that, while not understanding the defense was not built to be dominant against teams like the Colts is beyond me. DEN was built to score with teams like the Colts, not hold them in check.

I just think that DEN could rectify that problem by completely adopting a SCHEME and sticking to it over time, like Mike has been able to do on offense with his Zone blocking run and West coast passing offense. They have been able to identify later round talent to make that scheme effective, and wasted countless defensive second day picks trying to do the same with no Direction in talent acquisition for the defense.

[Northman]

Well, it might look like the TB defense that Coyer has helped Kiffin turn around ;D Something like third in yards and tied for 1st in points against maybe :welcome:

BTW, TB defense has 3 new starters in Jovan Haye, Kevin Carter, and Greg White/Gaines Adams. Those guys were pretty unheralded and again Coyer has made them quite respectable again. He took Jovan Haye and made him a highly productive UT from playing DE his whole career. Greg White leads them in sacks and was a former NFL europe product who sat 3 years out of football. Kevin Carter was a real solid pickup for them and he has played DE/UT very well. Gaines Adams has come along nicely and is producing pretty well for a stud rookie DE. He is peaking right now and earning PT through his play, not his draft status.

Coyer just had a knack for putting parts together on the DL and making it acceptable. They ALWAYS struggled against elite teams though, because they did not have the talent to win one on one. How anyone could blame him for that, while not understanding the defense was not built to be dominant against teams like the Colts is beyond me. DEN was built to score with teams like the Colts, not hold them in check.

I just think that DEN could rectify that problem by completely adopting a SCHEME and sticking to it over time, like Mike has been able to do on offense with his Zone blocking run and West coast passing offense. They have been able to identify later round talent to make that scheme effective, and wasted countless defensive second day picks trying to do the same with no Direction in talent acquisition for the defense.


Bingo. Part of our problem is we keep changing it up every year along with dozens of players. Get a scheme and stick with it and build up the chemistry with the players. Otherwise you will just be doomed to repeat the mediocrity on defense every year.

[Beantown Bronco]

I just think that DEN could rectify that problem by completely adopting a SCHEME and sticking to it over time, like Mike has been able to do on offense with his Zone blocking run and West coast passing offense. They have been able to identify later round talent to make that scheme effective, and wasted countless defensive second day picks trying to do the same with no Direction in talent acquisition for the defense.

agreed.

[epa86b@netzero]

They ALWAYS struggled against elite teams though, because they did not have the talent to win one on one. How anyone could blame him for that, while not understanding the defense was not built to be dominant against teams like the Colts is beyond me. DEN was built to score with teams like the Colts, not hold them in check.



The changeover of personnel on the DL from year to year made it appear that we were upgrading, which was not the case; thus, I expected the performance to improve against the elite Offenses year after year. In addition, on paper the DL additions appeared to have pedigree based on draft positions where previous DL members had no pedigree since they were typically undrafted.

I admit I was "snow-jobbed" to a certain degree by the music chairs called our DL over the years.

However, this year's run defense and red zone offense should show Shanny that upgrades are necessary at DT and OT or he is indeed "sleeping at the wheel".

[telluride]

Slowik has always been the "coodinator". He was coordinating Bates scheme. They changed the scheme. Its not like Slowik just took the reigns. Its like Dennison he is the OC but Dinger is up the box clearly configuring plays.

The model of HC, DC, and OC is getting blown out of the water. Since there is no cap on coaches you can hire as many as you want. More teams are going to this.

I think Bates better be given a year and he better have a say on the Defensive moves this offseason. His D works with the right personnel. But Shanny has failed to set him up for success.

Its really going to be a process with the situation we are in. Having to make up for past drafts and throw money around in FA or trades and new contracts have placed the team in a tight spot.

I doubt Bates is gone unless he leaves. O'Brian well that may be a different story his ST just does not play fundamental ST's. THey don't shed blocks they don't tackle and they don't have that swagger.

This might be a 2 year project folks. Patience is going to be paramount.

This "2 year project" has been going on for ten years. The only way we get back to the super bowl is by bringing in a new GM, and a new head coach. Time to clean house.

[lex]

This "2 year project" has been going on for ten years. The only way we get back to the super bowl is by bringing in a new GM, and a new head coach. Time to clean house.

It seems like just yesterday you were saying you'd rather hang on to Shanahan as a coach.

[Dudeskey]

Wow

Can anyone confirm this?

It certainly explains why our D has been so hot and cold... Putting him in charge of the D was a big mistake... just look what that genius did for Green Bay a few years back- Slowik is the one that needs to go

[houghtam]

So Bates's system isn't working because he doesn't have elite talent on defense? That's got to be the stupidest f-ing argument I've ever heard. Can't that be said for every system on every team...hell, for every sport?

We all pretty much agree that Norv Turnover is a mediocre coach at best. Yet he gets to San Diego (a team with more talent then anyone in the division), and look at that! They win the division! Surprise!

Look, I agree that in order to win a championship, you have to have the right coaches, the right system, etc. But to argue that Bates' system isn't working because he needs more talent...when he's working with basically the same (if not better) talent than Coyer had is plain stupid. Especially considering we fielded arguably one of the worst Bronco defenses EVER this season.

Have some faith in your team, sure...but have some f-ing pride in it, too. Just because you're a fan doesn't mean you have to apologize for everything your team does. This defense is a huge joke, and it's just as much Shanahan's fault for not providing talent as it is Bates' fault for giving up 30 points per game.