Bates

[~Crash~]

Shall we fire him now . I say today the guy has no clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wolf754life]

not the personnell guys fault...........so yea throw him under the bus, hopefully the same guy will hire a new D coordinator and pick the Defensive players for him too....

wow guys, you will defend shanny till he resigns!

[NFLBRONCO]

If they fire Bates so be it but, how does it help consistancy when you change schemes all the time.

[~Crash~]

Bates system is a mess ! I hate blocking DT's but that is just me I want a player to pentrait and I think Shanhan has kind of already took over the D side of the ball anyways

[~Crash~]

If they fire Bates so be it but, how does it help consistancy when you change schemes all the time.


It dont help but make no mistake this season was a real mess and Bates has a season and 100 mill down the drain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he did not make our D better . He made it a mess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and to the guy that said I give Shanahan a pass I want a real gm . so you are wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CBF1]

Bates system is a mess ! I hate blocking DT's but that is just me I want a player to pentrait and I think Shanhan has kind of already took over the D side of the ball anyways

Have another 12 pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon and get some fresh air Hilarious!

[NFLBRONCO]

This team is a mess and its easiest to blame DC but, man Shanny and Ted made this mess they need to fix things. A new DC will still have alot of the same issues Bates has. I see what your saying Crash I wish we had the answer.

[~Crash~]

Have another 12 pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon and get some fresh air Hilarious!


well you can go roll another one:afro:

[~Crash~]

This team is a mess and its easiest to blame DC but, man Shanny and Ted made this mess they need to fix things. A new DC will still have alot of the same issues Bates has. I see what your saying Crash I wish we had the answer.

tED HAS NOT DONE CRAP

[Northman]

To early to fire him. The guy deserves a chance to at least add people and make a difference. If we were going to just switch out DC's every year we should of stuck with Coyer.

[~Crash~]

Ted deserves a real chance IMO in the 3 years he has had some nice drafts. I have seen him state that there are some thing he would do different so I don’t blame him .

[Broncomutt]

And bring in who?

C'mon, can't suggest firing a guy unless you're willing to name a replacement!!

At least that's what us, so-called "Shanny Haters" keep hearing.

Name a replacement!

Unlike some people hear, I'll actually listen and weigh your response, and not just auto label you a clown, retard, idiot.

[broncofan2438]

Get rid of his ass

[Taco John]

Firing Coyer is easily one of Shanahan's top five mistakes in his tenure.

[yavoon]

it'd be massively politically difficult to fire bates, but I not a fan of his system a whole lot neway.

[~Crash~]

Firing Coyer is easily one of Shanahan's top five mistakes in his tenure.

yep when you know the real problem at the end of the year was we had no MLB or any health safteys

[The MVPlaya]

Wow Orangemane is filled with retards...

[The MVPlaya]

This is why america is in the "middle class." When you invest in something, **** will not always go your way. If you find something that works right off the back, then great you've found a gem (Jay Cutler). However, others take more time to develop, and usually those turn into BIG BIG businessses.

Every single damn big business you can think of all had their downs and were on the mist of failing.

Donald Trump went bankrupt before he was truely successful.

Bates has began to try and implement he system and his ways, why not give him time? That's the problem with fans, you can only see NOW...success doesn't happen overnight. He's had less than a season to try and get things sorted out. A horrible LB corps with backups playing. He just drafted a dline, with our #1 pick out.

Bates is going to have his time...if we see the SAME results next season...then obviously we have a problem.

But if we do great within the next couple years, you guys will be humping your wives/GF thinking about how great the Broncos are right?

Idiots.

[SleepingTiger]

Bates is stuck with a crappy dline in which is scheme is based off on.
Im still puzzled about the release of Warren though. He could of help this dline out.
We brought in so many dline and now almost all of them are gone. This year is freaking crazy.

[SleepingTiger]

This is why america is in the "middle class." When you invest in something, **** will not always go your way. If you find something that works right off the back, then great you've found a gem (Jay Cutler). However, others take more time to develop, and usually those turn into BIG BIG businessses.

Every single damn big business you can think of all had their downs and were on the mist of failing.

Donald Trump went bankrupt before he was truely successful.

Bates has began to try and implement he system and his ways, why not give him time? That's the problem with fans, you can only see NOW...success doesn't happen overnight. He's had less than a season to try and get things sorted out. A horrible LB corps with backups playing. He just drafted a dline, with our #1 pick out.

Bates is going to have his time...if we see the SAME results next season...then obviously we have a problem.

But if we do great within the next couple years, you guys will be humping your wives/GF thinking about how great the Broncos are right?

Idiots.

very true.... we need to stay with one system and let it develop.

[DenverBrit]

It's amazing, every time the Broncos lose, the Mane goes into a 'let's fire someone' meltdown.
Stop looking for scapegoats and look for answers.

The team has problems everywhere this year, let's look forward to the draft and high draft picks. :sunshine:

[The MVPlaya]

Bates is stuck with a crappy dline in which is scheme is based off on.
Im still puzzled about the release of Warren though. He could of help this dline out.
We brought in so many dline and now almost all of them are gone. This year is freaking crazy.

We traded him...but that was a questionable move. He supposedly didn't fit the system but I'm sure he looks great right about now.

[yavoon]

This is why america is in the "middle class." When you invest in something, **** will not always go your way. If you find something that works right off the back, then great you've found a gem (Jay Cutler). However, others take more time to develop, and usually those turn into BIG BIG businessses.

Every single damn big business you can think of all had their downs and were on the mist of failing.

Donald Trump went bankrupt before he was truely successful.

Bates has began to try and implement he system and his ways, why not give him time? That's the problem with fans, you can only see NOW...success doesn't happen overnight. He's had less than a season to try and get things sorted out. A horrible LB corps with backups playing. He just drafted a dline, with our #1 pick out.

Bates is going to have his time...if we see the SAME results next season...then obviously we have a problem.

But if we do great within the next couple years, you guys will be humping your wives/GF thinking about how great the Broncos are right?

Idiots.

maybe some ppl just dont like bates?

[Kaylore]

It's amazing, every time the Broncos lose, the Mane goes into a 'let's fire someone' meltdown.
Stop looking for scapegoats and look for answers.

The team has problems everywhere this year, let's look forward to the draft and high draft picks. :sunshine:

You and your logic. It's much easier to say "fire/cut (insert person)" and then compalin the team has no heart! Obviously we should draft heart with all our picks next draft.

[Requiem]

Imagine this: You have a eight year old kid who is going into the third grade. They have their backpack on, but they don't have the school supplies to succeed in school. So the kid at life and doesn't pass third grade.

That's sort of what we have with Jim Bates, a defense with the wrong personnel. Give him time. It'll work.

[DenverBrit]

You and your logic. It's much easier to say "fire/cut (insert person)" and then compalin the team has no heart! Obviously we should draft heart with all our picks next draft.

I was going to suggest firing Bolen. :spit:

[The MVPlaya]

very true.... we need to stay with one system and let it develop.

That's what I'm saying. We would never ever have dominant team if we were to switch or fire coaches the second we see failure. Players come and go, but you give a coach time especially when he's trying to implement a whole new system into your team.

[~Crash~]

Bates is stuck with a crappy dline in which is scheme is based off on.
Im still puzzled about the release of Warren though. He could of help this dline out.
We brought in so many dline and now almost all of them are gone. This year is freaking crazy.

it really is much worse than just letting warren go they never gave him a chance!!!!!!!! I say bates had his chance and has really failed.

yes you do not give up ! but do you think bates told Coach
I will build you a D in a few years ? LOL . if you think Shanhan was told you dont have the personell but I can make this team better in a few years I got some swap land for sale real cheap !:~ohyah!:

[The MVPlaya]

it really is much worse than just letting warren go they never gave him a chance!!!!!!!! I say bates had his chance and has really failed.

yes you do not give up ! but do you think bates told Coach
I will build you a D in a few years ? LOL . if you think Shanhan was told you dont have the personell but I can make this team better in a few years I got some swap land for sale real cheap !:~ohyah!:

How do you fail in a season? Why is this standard held on a coach trying to fix a whole DEFENSIVE TEAM but not a player? Bates is trying to get 11 guys on the field working together and correctly, so he only has how many games to do it?

But when a WR, QB, RB takes 1-3 years to develop, he's ass.

You're right. We should drop Crowder, Moss, Marcus Thomas, every rookie we drafted. They all didn't perform this season as they are expected to in the FUTURE.

I don't think Bates was hired to bring the Broncos to the Super Bowl this season...I don't think Bates came in saying, yeah I will get this done with one off season, and then the second the season starts we will be Super Bowl contenders.

Hilarious!

Get real. If Bates defense turns to be a success next year, or better, then the year after even more successful, how will you feel about what you're saying now?

You should look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself where intelligence or pride really lies.

[yavoon]

How do you fail in a season? Why is this standard held on a coach trying to fix a whole DEFENSIVE TEAM but not a player? Bates is trying to get 11 guys on the field working together and correctly, so he only has how many games to do it?

But when a WR, QB, RB takes 1-3 years to develop, he's ass.

You're right. We should drop Crowder, Moss, Marcus Thomas, every rookie we drafted. They all didn't perform this season as they are expected to in the FUTURE.

I don't think Bates was hired to bring the Broncos to the Super Bowl this season...I don't think Bates came in saying, yeah I will get this done with one off season, and then the second the season starts we will be Super Bowl contenders.

Hilarious!

Get real. If Bates defense turns to be a success next year, or better, then the year after even more successful, how will you feel about what you're saying now?

You should look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself where intelligence or pride really lies.

rb's take 3 years to develop? u sure ur watching the NFL?

and I agree, there's no way bates was brought in to rebuild the defense considering our FA spending. he was brought in to be the DC on a built defense.

[The MVPlaya]

rb's take 3 years to develop? u sure ur watching the NFL?

and I agree, there's no way bates was brought in to rebuild the defense considering our FA spending. he was brought in to be the DC on a built defense.

Reggie Bush has one more year haha...however RB is a bad position to use as an example, but I think I got the point across. Dlineman and olineman definitely take about that long...same with QBs. So since a SINGLE player responsible for himself is given time to develop, why is a coach not?

That last line you said has just cost you all your credibility, if any, of any NFL comment you make from this point on.

HE WAS BROUGHT IN ON A BUILT DEFENSE? Hilarious!

[Blueflame]

Rival fan (Fadefan) likes Bates... go figure... :P

[~Crash~]

Reggie Bush has one more year haha...however RB is a bad position to use as an example, but I think I got the point across. Dlineman and olineman definitely take about that long...same with QBs. So since a SINGLE player responsible for himself is given time to develop, why is a coach not?

That last line you said has just cost you all your credibility, if any, of any NFL comment you make from this point on.

HE WAS BROUGHT IN ON A BUILT DEFENSE? Hilarious!

Are owner promised DW family a SB but you are right he was just blowing smoke up thier ass !

[The MVPlaya]

Are owner promised DW family a SB but you are right he was just blowing smoke up thier ass !

Did he say this year?

That definitely a promise that can't be taken serious if he said THIS year...with essentially a rookie QB coming in, I know he couldn't have said THIS year.

[yavoon]

Reggie Bush has one more year haha...however RB is a bad position to use as an example, but I think I got the point across. Dlineman and olineman definitely take about that long...same with QBs. So since a SINGLE player responsible for himself is given time to develop, why is a coach not?

That last line you said has just cost you all your credibility, if any, of any NFL comment you make from this point on.

HE WAS BROUGHT IN ON A BUILT DEFENSE? Hilarious!

we have a great sack guy, a 1st round linebacker, 1 HOF corner in his prime, another good cover corner and a great run stopping safety.

our 2006 defense was 12th and our 2005 defense was 6th. but no, don't let history fool u. because post hoc justifications built off poor performance to pre suppose that of course bates needs time, the defense sucks! haha.

[~Crash~]

Did he say this year?

That definitely a promise that can't be taken serious if he said THIS year...with essentially a rookie QB coming in, I know he couldn't have said THIS year.


yes he did at the Funeral. so yes he wanted a SB this year! and there will be a bunch of heads roll and you can bet soon ! I am hoping Coach is not fired but I have a bad feeling he might quit . I hope he will let a GM take ove and just coach.

[The MVPlaya]

we have a great sack guy, a 1st round linebacker, 1 HOF corner in his prime, another good cover corner and a great run stopping safety.

our 2006 defense was 12th and our 2005 defense was 6th. but no, don't let history fool u. because post hoc justifications built off poor performance to pre suppose that of course bates needs time, the defense sucks! haha.

How about you characterize the other 6 players on the field? How about you mention that our 1st round LB isn't in his natural or drafted position? How about our HOF corner has been possibly been playing injured? How about our other cover corner being a corner not really being a "cover corner"? How about our safety that is slow and should be in the game on running situations?

This defense is NOT BUILT. Our personal from the past 2 years are different from what it is now. Bates has barely had one season and off season to learn about his team...you need to build a connection with your players and know how they operate, how to use them, etc...

This is not a video game where you plug a player inside an offense and he will perform per his ratings.

This is life, this is the NFL where everything comes into play.

[yavoon]

How about you characterize the other 6 players on the field? How about you mention that our 1st round LB isn't in his natural or drafted position? How about our HOF corner has been possibly been playing injured? How about our other cover corner being a corner not really being a "cover corner"? How about our safety that is slow and should be in the game on running situations?

This defense is NOT BUILT. Our personal from the past 2 years are different from what it is now. Bates has barely had one season and off season to learn about his team...you need to build a connection with your players and know how they operate, how to use them, etc...

This is not a video game where you plug a player inside an offense and he will perform per his ratings.

This is life, this is the NFL where everything comes into play.

see, all the excuses flow like wine. u say coordinators always need time, thats bullcrap. much less always need 3 years. I'd love to gather some statistics on defensive coordinators who took over teams, made their defense massively worse and turned out good. I bet its not very good.

[The MVPlaya]

see, all the excuses flow like wine. u say coordinators always need time, thats bullcrap. much less always need 3 years. I'd love to gather some statistics on defensive coordinators who took over teams, made their defense massively worse and turned out good. I bet its not very good.

Excuses? How about logic?

You realize our dline has had little to no experience this year? You realize that our line backing corps has been depleted since Al Wilson left?

Bates had nothing to do with his departure along with injuries that has plagued us all season.

Rather that, YOU are looking for someone to point the finger at. You can't point it at the other team OUTPLAYING us because we are a LESS prepared and much less of a TEAM right now. So it's by default the coaches fault.

Right now our defense is not on the level of playing great when our offense isn't. If our offense plays good, it will rub off on our defense which is how it is right now.

We need a defense that can play great regardless of the performance of the offense, hence the Bears of last year.

Like I said, you've lost all credibility. Our defensive squad is not great right now, and when you are lacking like we do, this type of **** will happen.

[yavoon]

Excuses? How about logic?

You realize our dline has had little to no experience this year? You realize that our line backing corps has been depleted since Al Wilson left?

Bates had nothing to do with his departure along with injuries that has plagued us all season.

Rather that, YOU are looking for someone to point the finger at. You can't point it at the other team OUTPLAYING us because we are a LESS prepared and much less of a TEAM right now. So it's by default the coaches fault.

Right now our defense is not on the level of playing great when our offense isn't. If our offense plays good, it will rub off on our defense which is how it is right now.

We need a defense that can play great regardless of the performance of the offense, hence the Bears of last year.

Like I said, you've lost all credibility. Our defensive squad is not great right now, and when you are lacking like we do, this type of **** will happen.

meh you're all hyperventilating and overexagerating. I don't like bates and I think he has done a poor coaching job w/ a relatively undermanned defense - some of which he stripped intentionally for no good reason. but trust me, a lot of this awful defense rhetoric exists SOLELY because the defense is doing bad. if the defense was doing better the crap flying around would be about how our two great corners give our passrush, and doom time and how DJ is playing better or blah blah you know the drill.

12th last year, 6th the year before.

another thing that worries me deeply is all the ppl we brought in like amon gordon instead of being like ed johnson of the colts(rookie undrafted first year starter). they are basically unworthy of being on NFL rosters, but denver couldn't figure that out until months into the season. how is that for talent evaluation? we drop warren and bring in ppl who should be working at walmart.

[yavoon]

btw incase anyone wants to take a dump on champ or bly they are doing awesome this year:

-27.3% 4 vs 1st wr
-28.4% 4 vs 2nd wr
42.7% 32 vs other wr
48.1% 30 vs TE

[Taco John]

I don't want to bag on Bates too much, because I want to give him a chance with "his" type of players. But I can't help but be heartbroken over the whole Coyer fiasco. I was saying it then, and I'll say it now: Coyer was the best defensive coordinator that we had since Wade Phillips. It pains me that we not only let this guy get away - BUT WE SHOWED HIM THE DOOR!

This guy fielded a hell of a defense for us with some sub par players. OF COURSE they broke down over the season... They were playing well above their heads and we had no depth. For that guy to take the Browncos and do what he did with them is nothing short of remarkable.

I'm sure Bates is probably just having a bad year or something. It takes a while for a defense to start trusting eachother enough to gel. I would hope that next year he fulfils the promise that came along with jettisoning a defensive coordinator who took a rag tag team on a historic ride before the November meltdown.

I just had to get that off my chest. This season has been fun to watch the offense develop, but the defense has completely tore my heart out.

[Ray Finkle]

I don't want to bag on Bates too much, because I want to give him a chance with "his" type of players. But I can't help but be heartbroken over the whole Coyer fiasco. I was saying it then, and I'll say it now: Coyer was the best defensive coordinator that we had since Wade Phillips. It pains me that we not only let this guy get away - BUT WE SHOWED HIM THE DOOR!

This guy fielded a hell of a defense for us with some sub par players. OF COURSE they broke down over the season... They were playing well above their heads and we had no depth. For that guy to take the Browncos and do what he did with them is nothing short of remarkable.

I'm sure Bates is probably just having a bad year or something. It takes a while for a defense to start trusting eachother enough to gel. I would hope that next year he fulfils the promise that came along with jettisoning a defensive coordinator who took a rag tag team on a historic ride before the November meltdown.

I just had to get that off my chest. This season has been fun to watch the offense develop, but the defense has completely tore my heart out.



Please, people here where bashing Coyer all last year (Having EE cover LT ring a bell?). If Bates has major issues in year 2, then this is valid. You don't replace your MLB, SLB, Most your D line, FS, and have Champ injured most the year and expect to dominate....Losing Moss was a blow to the D.

[Beantown Bronco]

You don't replace your MLB, SLB, Most your D line, FS, and have Champ injured most the year and expect to dominate....Losing Moss was a blow to the D.

MLB? As scary as it is to say, DJ is playing better at the position than Al was for most of last year.

SLB? Hardly a strength last year.

DLine? Coyer chose to do the overhaul. If it's worse, it's because it is at least partially his fault for getting rid of guys who played last year.

FS? Coyer dealt with injuries there last year.

Champ injured? this only comes up after a "bad Champ" game. We never hear about it when he shuts down his side of the field. His name has also been absent from the weekly injury reports; and considering names are put on there if guys have bruises, I'll assume he's 100%.

Moss? I must've missed the games where he was lighting it up. Fact is, he was not being counted on this season to be a savior, so his injury cannot be used as an excuse for Bates.

A very valid argument could be made for stating that Bates has better talent than Coyer did last year.....and yet the unit is still struggling against some average and some really week offenses.

Nobody was looking for domination this year. Middle of the pack, or at least something better than the last month of last season, would've been fine.

[Beantown Bronco]

(Having EE cover LT ring a bell?).

I'm still trying to figure out what's worse:

Having EE cover LT
or
Having a FB and TE trying to block one of the hottest pass rushers in the league one-on-one.

[Mediator12]

Please, people here where bashing Coyer all last year (Having EE cover LT ring a bell?). If Bates has major issues in year 2, then this is valid. You don't replace your MLB, SLB, Most your D line, FS, and have Champ injured most the year and expect to dominate....Losing Moss was a blow to the D.

I am glad people were bashing Coyer last year, because that goes to the extent of their understanding. The foundation of the defense is the DL and over the last 5 years it has gone from average to one of the worst, if not the worst, I have ever seen. Coyer's defenses were built around the strength's of the players he had, and they deteriorated over time as the DL got worse and worse each year. He covered for real poor DL's for 2 years in 2005 and 2006 and finally ran out of tricks in about the middle of last year.

We have found out how hard it is to cover for that bad of a DL this year with Bates. He had NO idea of how bad that DL was until he got here and saw them. This is a guy with a very good pedigree as a Defensive Coordinator and he has had all the same problems Coyer had to end last year. Somehow, this DL is even worse than last years group. Al Wilson no longer can cover the mistakes of the front four in the running game. And, the only consistent pass rush comes from Dumervil. Even with a huge upgrade at CB with Dre Bly, the defense is still getting abused against the pass and only stops the run occasionally against Very bad teams. It is not easy to have a solid defense with Crap on the DL and this is the worst DL in DEN I have ever seen.

Coyer never once put an average defense on the field in any of the four seasons, despite all the complaints and bashing. In fact, they finished higher in scoring or yardage than the offfense every single year. They were always in the top 10 in scoring defense and they were 3rd, 4th, 16th, and 14th in yards against. They did get massacred against good Offensive teams, but those were games they never could cover for the DL. The better the offense, the harder it becomes to cover for a bad foundation. Nothing is more evident than watching DEN play this year. The DL has killed the rest of the defense more than ever. The LB's and secondary have been more exposed and they are less talented at LB.

The defense was always just good enough under Coyer to win enough games to make the playoffs. It was never the focus of this team, or the unit that was supposed to win games for DEN. In fact, that has been that way all 13 seasons under Shanahan. They were just supposed to hold up well enough that the offense could do its job.

This year, you see how hard it is to do that Job. Coyer's defenses played better than the sum of their parts, until they played elite offenses and then they were exposed for the rag tag nature of their foundation. Bates has not been able to gameplan and trick other OC's as much with this team. In fact, that was never his strength as a DC. He likes to line up and play aggressive and beat the guy in front of you, not devise elaborate gameplans based on deception.

The only reason he is here IMHO is to establish a better base system than the rotating nature of player acquisition in the past. He is here to Implement a defensive scheme that talent can be acquired and developed over time, with players fitting the scheme instead of changing schemes year to year to fit the poor acquisitional fits. Lets give him time to put it all together. At least, there seems to be a philosophical change in how the defense should be run year to year. They made progress going after DL last offseason, now they need to finish the work they started this offseason.

[Gcver2ver3]

Fire Bates?

I would say no at this point....but i am confused by his decisions sometimes (if they are indeed his)

I don't understand why he didn't have the team prepared for bootlegs last night against Houston...the defense should know how to defend it better than anyone....i don't get it...

Plus why isn't Champ Bailey covering the opposing teams #1 WR more often?

With that said....the personnel is terrible...i don't think any def coord. can make this defense successful....

So give him another year for no other reson than to at least show consistency in learning a system....

if bates was fired though...i woulkdn't exactly be upset about it....

[Orange_Beard]

How about "GET SOME ***CING TALENT ON THE D-LINE!!!!"

[ScottXray]

I am glad people were bashing Coyer last year, because that goes to the extent of their understanding. The foundation of the defense is the DL and over the last 5 years it has gone from average to one of the worst, if not the worst, I have ever seen. Coyer's defenses were built around the strength's of the players he had, and they deteriorated over time as the DL got worse and worse each year. He covered for real poor DL's for 2 years in 2005 and 2006 and finally ran out of tricks in about the middle of last year.

We have found out how hard it is to cover for that bad of a DL this year with Bates. He had NO idea of how bad that DL was until he got here and saw them. This is a guy with a very good pedigree as a Defensive Coordinator and he has had all the same problems Coyer had to end last year. Somehow, this DL is even worse than last years group. Al Wilson no longer can cover the mistakes of the front four in the running game. And, the only consistent pass rush comes from Dumervil. Even with a huge upgrade at CB with Dre Bly, the defense is still getting abused against the pass and only stops the run occasionally against Very bad teams. It is not easy to have a solid defense with Crap on the DL and this is the worst DL in DEN I have ever seen.

Coyer never once put an average defense on the field in any of the four seasons, despite all the complaints and bashing. In fact, they finished higher in scoring or yardage than the offfense every single year. They were always in the top 10 in scoring defense and they were 3rd, 4th, 16th, and 14th in yards against. They did get massacred against good Offensive teams, but those were games they never could cover for the DL. The better the offense, the harder it becomes to cover for a bad foundation. Nothing is more evident than watching DEN play this year. The DL has killed the rest of the defense more than ever. The LB's and secondary have been more exposed and they are less talented at LB.

The defense was always just good enough under Coyer to win enough games to make the playoffs. It was never the focus of this team, or the unit that was supposed to win games for DEN. In fact, that has been that way all 13 seasons under Shanahan. They were just supposed to hold up well enough that the offense could do its job.

This year, you see how hard it is to do that Job. Coyer's defenses played better than the sum of their parts, until they played elite offenses and then they were exposed for the rag tag nature of their foundation. Bates has not been able to gameplan and trick other OC's as much with this team. In fact, that was never his strength as a DC. He likes to line up and play aggressive and beat the guy in front of you, not devise elaborate gameplans based on deception.

The only reason he is here IMHO is to establish a better base system than the rotating nature of player acquisition in the past. He is here to Implement a defensive scheme that talent can be acquired and developed over time, with players fitting the scheme instead of changing schemes year to year to fit the poor acquisitional fits. Lets give him time to put it all together. At least, there seems to be a philosophical change in how the defense should be run year to year. They made progress going after DL last offseason, now they need to finish the work they started this offseason.

Word..Mediator! Rep.

Last night was a disappointing game in a disappointing season. Firing Bates will not solve anything and simply make next years defense a bigger questionmark.

My main disappointment yesterday was in OUR game plan. The loss of Stokely, then Henrys injury, and Grahams injury doomed the game, as well as the fact that the Offensive line had poor protection all game. Basically we had two plays (since the running game was abandoned early)..throw to Marshall, and then, throw to Sheffler.

Furthermore, it was a major blow to watch Kubiak run OUR old offense at OUR defense and see them ( the defense) apparently completely unprepared and unable to stop it. I would have thought that Shanahan would have had some insight in how to defend against that type of offense, and been able to help Bates devise a scheme to stop it. Once again...failure to execute was the main problem. Jake Plummer must have been laughing if he watched the game, as he saw the exact same roll-outs and single bootlegs that he used for three years completely fool the defense over and over. KC fans were laughing too.

There are two points I took from the game..

1. Mike Shanahan PANICED in the third quarter when he went on long fourth down attempts twice. We were down ten points with over a quarter to go and he made mistakes on both in going for the first downs. We should have let Sauerbrun (or Elam) try to pooch it to the side line and made Houston go the long field, or gone for long Field goals. Instead we gave them excellent field position twice and demoralised the defense....again.

2. The real "mastermind" left and went to Houston three years ago. It was very clear last night who understands the Shanahan offense better, and how to execute it.

It is my hope that we can take the next two games and learn more about the players we have left....and hopefully get a top ten pick out of this miserable season...

[Ray Finkle]

MLB? As scary as it is to say, DJ is playing better at the position than Al was for most of last year.

Not even Socal would agree with you on this

SLB? Hardly a strength last year.

So DJ is a better then AL but not as good as Nate

DLine? Coyer chose to do the overhaul. If it's worse, it's because it is at least partially his fault for getting rid of guys who played last year.

Bates chose to overhaul, not Coyer

FS? Coyer dealt with injuries there last year.

Both starting Safety's have missed time and Ferg has been benched

Champ injured? this only comes up after a "bad Champ" game. We never hear about it when he shuts down his side of the field. His name has also been absent from the weekly injury reports; and considering names are put on there if guys have bruises, I'll assume he's 100%.

you assume, nuff said. Do you really think all injuries are reported? Quad injuries take a long time to heal.

Moss? I must've missed the games where he was lighting it up. Fact is, he was not being counted on this season to be a savior, so his injury cannot be used as an excuse for Bates.

He was coming on and not all DE's light it up their first year like Peppers or Kearse.

A very valid argument could be made for stating that Bates has better talent than Coyer did last year.....and yet the unit is still struggling against some average and some really week offenses.

schemes where night and day....bad comparrison

Nobody was looking for domination this year. Middle of the pack, or at least something better than the last month of last season, would've been fine.


see bold

[Bronx33]

Wow Orangemane is filled with retards...

Ya! ROFL! j/k

[Beantown Bronco]

MLB? As scary as it is to say, DJ is playing better at the position than Al was for most of last year.

Not even Socal would agree with you on this

Care to make a wager? Where's Socal? Al was clearly not himself for at least half the year last year.

SLB? Hardly a strength last year.

So DJ is a better then AL but not as good as Nate

Not what I said. DJ is having a better (or at least comparable) year at MLB this year than Al was having last year. I'm not talking career here. And DJ sucked at SLB last year. Webster sucks at it this year. Wash at best.

That's what I'm saying.

Bates chose to overhaul, not Coyer

Bingo. By pointing out my typo, you proved my point. Bates made the decision to get rid of the existing DLinemen, and bring in the scrubs/start the rooks/etc., so poor performance on the DLine is on Bates.

Champ injured? this only comes up after a "bad Champ" game. We never hear about it when he shuts down his side of the field. His name has also been absent from the weekly injury reports; and considering names are put on there if guys have bruises, I'll assume he's 100%.

you assume, nuff said. Do you really think all injuries are reported? Quad injuries take a long time to heal.

There is zero evidence that he is hurt. Watch him play. His peeking into the backfield and getting burned deep and caught out of position are not results of injuries. If he was out there hobbling around, incapable of keeping up with WRs, that's one thing. But he's biting on fakes. There's no connection.

He was coming on and not all DE's light it up their first year like Peppers or Kearse.

Exactly. You were using it to support your point that Bates wasn't to blame. But you can't use Moss' absence as support when he wasn't expected to contribute in a significant way to the defense anyway.

schemes where night and day....bad comparrison

Why? We're comparing the success of two coaches with two different schemes. That's the whole point.

[Ray Finkle]

Why? We're comparing the success of two coaches with two different schemes. That's the whole point.

you were comparing players....I am comparing schemes. Champ does not have the same recovery speed he had last year....that is due to his quad. If you listen during the game, Collinsworth mentioned that when he first got hurt last night.

[Beantown Bronco]

you were comparing players....I am comparing schemes.

I was comparing schemes, while evaluating the talent utilized within each.

Simply put, my main argument is that Coyer's scheme achieved better results with inferior players executing it.

[Beantown Bronco]

Champ does not have the same recovery speed he had last year....that is due to his quad. If you listen during the game, Collinsworth mentioned that when he first got hurt last night.

I listened and never heard Collinsworth mention anything about the quad.

[Ray Finkle]

I was comparing schemes, while evaluating the talent utilized within each.

Simply put, my main argument is that Coyer's scheme achieved better results with inferior players executing it.

you can not compare two different things. If Bates was using the same scheme, then you have a valid comparison....

[Ray Finkle]

I listened and never heard Collinsworth mention anything about the quad.

He mentioned how it has been a tough year for Champ (injury wise) and mentioned his quad.

[Beantown Bronco]

you can not compare two different things. If Bates was using the same scheme, then you have a valid comparison....

Just because you can't doesn't mean I can't.

You are confusing your own argument.

It is true that I can't say whether Coyer himself is a better coach than Bates unless they both coach the same scheme to the same players in back to back years.....and compare the results.

But I CAN say Coyer's scheme works better with this team than Bates' because the evidence is there.

[~Crash~]

Just because you can't doesn't mean I can't.

You are confusing your own argument.

It is true that I can't say whether Coyer himself is a better coach than Bates unless they both coach the same scheme to the same players in back to back years.....and compare the results.

But I CAN say Coyer's scheme works better with this team than Bates' because the evidence is there.

I will do you one better Bates I believe has been put in his place the last few games he likes fat DT's . The last time I check all of his slobs are not playing for the Broncos!

[Ray Finkle]

Just because you can't doesn't mean I can't.

You are confusing your own argument.

It is true that I can't say whether Coyer himself is a better coach than Bates unless they both coach the same scheme to the same players in back to back years.....and compare the results.

But I CAN say Coyer's scheme works better with this team than Bates' because the evidence is there.

okay....explain how you prove that Coyer's schemes work better when their are different players? You hypothesis is only valid if you can compare similar variables.....

[The MVPlaya]

Bingo. By pointing out my typo, you proved my point. Bates made the decision to get rid of the existing DLinemen, and bring in the scrubs/start the rooks/etc., so poor performance on the DLine is on Bates.

Champ injured? this only comes up after a "bad Champ" game. We never hear about it when he shuts down his side of the field. His name has also been absent from the weekly injury reports; and considering names are put on there if guys have bruises, I'll assume he's 100%.

Why? We're comparing the success of two coaches with two different schemes. That's the whole point.

Our dline has a much brighter future than we had last year and 2005. Arguably, we had a better run stopping dline. However, we could get 0 pass rush. In 2005 and 2006 our pass rush was 0. I don't think you remember clearly. It was worst than this year as far as pass rush from the front 4 goes.

We have a young line and we drafted rookies. Correct, you can blame this years line on Bates. However if success is seen in the future with the same squad, you best give Bates all the credit in the world.

Who exactly do you miss? Lang? Myers? Warren? Warren is probably the only player that would be worth on this squad. Other than that, I don't even know. Warren was a good run stopping DT and thats about it.

Champ Bailey could or could not be injured. If you've ever been in involved in football on any level, you know there are MANY injuries that are left unknown to the general public.

Champ had a bad year in 2004 too. His first year with our defense. Lets see how Champ does next year to see if he's really fallen off, which I really don't think has happen. He's slowed down, but many variables come into play.

Even to say he's slowed down could be a misconception on our part because all we see is him on the field when he gets thrown at. We aren't there in practice to see if he can still run as fast as he did last year. Him being burnt on some plays are also a result of the defense play call, not him man to man BURNT.

We're comparing success of 2 different coaches and 2 different "schemes." I don't know if Coyer really had a scheme, but you can call it "style." However, to be fair, Coyer had 4 years with the Denver defense, 2 with the line backing crew to total a total of 6 years with the Broncos.

To compare and finalize comparisons on both coaches is sheer lack of intelligence.

[Beantown Bronco]

okay....explain how you prove that Coyer's schemes work better when their are different players? You hypothesis is only valid if you can compare similar variables.....

Easy. There are several carryover players.....and for those who aren't carryovers, I am of the opinion that most, if not all of, the "new" players are better than the ones they are replacing. And if one tries to argue that they are not better players; then I would argue that it is Bates' own fault anyway, because he was the one who booted out all the Coyer players in favor of these new ones anyway.

Coyer = a
Bates = b
players = c

a+c = top 10 defense
b+c+1 = bottom 5 defense

(obviously over-simplified, but illustrates the basic hypothesis)

[The MVPlaya]

Easy. There are several carryover players.....and for those who aren't carryovers, I am of the opinion that most, if not all of, the "new" players are better than the ones they are replacing. And if one tries to argue that they are not better players; then I would argue that it is Bates' own fault anyway, because he was the one who booted out all the Coyer players in favor of these new ones anyway.

Coyer = a
Bates = b
players = c

a+c = top 10 defense
b+c+1 = bottom 5 defense

(obviously over-simplified, but illustrates the basic hypothesis)

I guess experience and familiarity with the players don't count.

Like I said in another post, this is not a video game where you plug a coach in and new players and everyone will play at their ability per their ratings.

[Beantown Bronco]

Our dline has a much brighter future than we had last year and 2005. .

Because they finally addressed the problem via the draft. They never had a draft like this for Coyer.

Arguably, we had a better run stopping dline..

Arguably? Who would ever attempt to discredit that statement. A top 10 if not a top 5 defense every year Coyer was here vs. #31 with Bates.

However, we could get 0 pass rush. In 2005 and 2006 our pass rush was 0. I don't think you remember clearly. It was worst than this year as far as pass rush from the front 4 goes.

Not true. We haven't gotten a good pass rush from any of those defenses, including this year, from just our front four. They always have to blitz at least one extra guy to bring true pressure.

We have a young line and we drafted rookies. Correct, you can blame this years line on Bates. However if success is seen in the future with the same squad, you best give Bates all the credit in the world.

If they do it while running his system in the future, then I most certainly will.

Him being burnt on some plays are also a result of the defense play call, not him man to man BURNT.

Champ has never gotten burned. The defensive play call (which Bates is responsible for) is to be blamed at all times. Got it.

To compare and finalize comparisons on both coaches is sheer lack of intelligence.

you may want some qualifiers there....that sentence doesn't even make sense.

[Beantown Bronco]

I guess experience and familiarity with the players don't count.

Like I said in another post, this is not a video game where you plug a coach in and new players and everyone will play at their ability per their ratings.

I know. But if you want to go down that road, then I'll tell you to look at the defense in Coyer's first year. The unit was far, far better in Coyer's first year than it has been in Bates' first year.

[The MVPlaya]

Because they finally addressed the problem via the draft. They never had a draft like this for Coyer.

They had a draft full of CB's and brought in Browns dline. Are you at memory loss? Because they didn't draft a dline doesn't mean they didn't attempt to do something for Coyer. How do you know Coyer didn't dictate what would happen? So what if they brought in a CB crew from another team and drafted dlineman, then what?


Arguably? Who would ever attempt to discredit that statement. A top 10 if not a top 5 defense every year Coyer was here vs. #31 with Bates.

If we're still at this point next season, then talk. Bates has come in on a brand new team and a brand new defense in which he was told to completely rebuild to his standards. How many coaches have you seen attempt this with success their first year? How about Cowboys when Parcells came in?

Not true. We haven't gotten a good pass rush from any of those defenses, including this year, from just our front four. They always have to blitz at least one extra guy to bring true pressure.

You're at memory loss. This year we've matched the total amount of sacks we had in 2005. Sacks don't tell it all though. In the beginning of the season we had a horrid pass rush that was irrelevant. After that bye week is when we saw a little bit of rush.

This is from our front 4. Coyer would Blitz, and if you remember, there was a point where the fans here we b****ing about him blitzing so much that it left no one for recovery or in the secondary.

If you truly watched the Broncos in 05 and 06, that pass rush was horrible. The dline was STANDING around because they ran out of breath. There was 0 pass rush, I still have recordings of those games.

My point, this years has been looking better as the season moves on.





If they do it while running his system in the future, then I most certainly will.

Not even his system, but with him at DC he'll receive credit, I don't think anyone will disagree.



Champ has never gotten burned. The defensive play call (which Bates is responsible for) is to be blamed at all times. Got it.

lol @ you taking my statements out of context and exaggerating it. Idiot.


you may want some qualifiers there....that sentence doesn't even make sense.

That sentence doesn't make sense? I hope you're not a grown man. If you are, look at yourself in the mirror and let yourself know that you are pretty stupid.


To compare and finalize comparisons on both coaches is sheer lack of intelligence.

To compare (as we are comparing Bates and Coyer)

and finalize comparisons (to set conclusions on Bates and Coyer on their success)

on both coaches is a sheer lack of intelligence (you are a dumb **** if you you can't comprehend this).

[Ray Finkle]

Easy. There are several carryover players.....and for those who aren't carryovers, I am of the opinion that most, if not all of, the "new" players are better than the ones they are replacing. And if one tries to argue that they are not better players; then I would argue that it is Bates' own fault anyway, because he was the one who booted out all the Coyer players in favor of these new ones anyway.

Coyer = a
Bates = b
players = c

a+c = top 10 defense
b+c+1 = bottom 5 defense

(obviously over-simplified, but illustrates the basic hypothesis)

again, you are off. The only players in the defense now that were in the defense last year (and in the same position) are Bailey, Lynch, Gold, and Engleberger. That is hardly a big enough sample size to draw your conclusion...

[Blueflame]

If you truly watched the Broncos in 05 and 06, that pass rush was horrible. The dline was STANDING around because they ran out of breath. There was 0 pass rush, I still have recordings of those games.

My point, this years has been looking better as the season moves on.

Some weeks, the pass rush might "look better"... but last night, Sage Rosenfels had zero pressure. No, the pass rush does not... consistently... look better.

[Beantown Bronco]

They had a draft full of CB's and brought in Browns dline. Are you at memory loss? Because they didn't draft a dline doesn't mean they didn't attempt to do something for Coyer.

Correct, it doesn't. But it does prove my point that they did nothing for the future of the DLine. Read back the post again. You said:

Our dline has a much brighter future than we had last year and 2005. .

Drafting CBs and bringing in older DLinemen from another team does NOTHING for the future of the DLine.


If we're still at this point next season, then talk. Bates has come in on a brand new team and a brand new defense in which he was told to completely rebuild to his standards. How many coaches have you seen attempt this with success their first year? How about Cowboys when Parcells came in?).

Again, you are changing your criteria and talking about defense in general now, when you originally specified run defense.....which is what I am responding to. Bates has a bad track record when it comes to run defenses. This was my primary criticism of him when he came here. A guy and unit that can't consistently stop the run has no business in the AFC West.

You're at memory loss. This year we've matched the total amount of sacks we had in 2005. Sacks don't tell it all though. In the beginning of the season we had a horrid pass rush that was irrelevant. After that bye week is when we saw a little bit of rush.

This is from our front 4. Coyer would Blitz, and if you remember, there was a point where the fans here we b****ing about him blitzing so much that it left no one for recovery or in the secondary.

If you truly watched the Broncos in 05 and 06, that pass rush was horrible. The dline was STANDING around because they ran out of breath. There was 0 pass rush, I still have recordings of those games. ).

Where am I at a memory loss? You have to stop glazing over my posts and actually read them. I admitted all this in my post, but said it much more quickly. Zero pass rush from front four in 04-today.

My point, this years has been looking better as the season moves on.

Aside from the two KC games, I disagree. We haven't been able to touch anyone else's QBs with our front four (aside from Dumervil - who was just as good, if not better in a limited role last year) when it counts all season long.

That sentence doesn't make sense? I hope you're not a grown man. If you are, look at yourself in the mirror and let yourself know that you are pretty stupid.

To compare (as we are comparing Bates and Coyer)

and finalize comparisons (to set conclusions on Bates and Coyer on their success)

on both coaches is a sheer lack of intelligence (you are a dumb **** if you you can't comprehend this).

Sorry, but the ability of one to compare two coaches with several years of experience in this league, with a lot of substantive data to cite, is something that (if anything) shows intelligence. Not a sheer lack of it.

I guess we should all stop comparing players that play for different teams now as well.....because they all have different coaches and play in different systems. How on earth would we ever tell who is better?

[Beantown Bronco]

again, you are off. The only players in the defense now that were in the defense last year (and in the same position) are Bailey, Lynch, Gold, and Engleberger. That is hardly a big enough sample size to draw your conclusion...

I tried to cover that in the "and for those who aren't carryovers" part.

[PRBronco]

Save me sifting through 3 pages of what I'm sure is 85% mindless drivel:
Has anyone suggested an acceptable alternative to Bates?
Acceptable means something other than "ZOMG get tihs collage coach who got a shutout this year!1"

[The MVPlaya]

Correct, it doesn't. But it does prove my point that they did nothing for the future of the DLine. Read back the post again. You said:

Our dline has a much brighter future than we had last year and 2005. .

Drafting CBs and bringing in older DLinemen from another team does NOTHING for the future of the DLine.

My point is, whose philosophy was it to begin with? DO YOU KNOW?

If you tell me Coyer has never had a chance to develop a dline, I can just simply tell you Bates has never got a chance to develop a linebacking crew, etc.

To make these Coyer vs Bates comparisons is unfair. Coyer had 6 years with the Broncos, 2 in which he got to spend time with the line backing crew so he could grasp onto the defense! Kind of like redshirting a player. Bates has been brought right in with no experience on the Broncos.

Again, you are changing your criteria and talking about defense in general now, when you originally specified run defense.....which is what I am responding to. Bates has a bad track record when it comes to run defenses. This was my primary criticism of him when he came here. A guy and unit that can't consistently stop the run has no business in the AFC West.

My criteria for what? Look @ any sport. First year coaches with experience or no experience have to be given time to develop their players. Bates did not come in on a built defense. Also, we have been talking about pass rush and run defense.


Where am I at a memory loss? You have to stop glazing over my posts and actually read them. I admitted all this in my post, but said it much more quickly. Zero pass rush from front four in 04-today.

You aren't comprehending me. I'm saying, that this years pass rush has improved as the season moved on, and has been better than the previous years. You're saying that the previous years are just as bad.

I'm saying you're at memory loss because you truly have forgotten how bad it was a couple years ago. The only time we had pressure was blitzing the past few yours, we have had more pressure this year than the previous years.

You can't prove nothing wrong unless you go re-watch tapes.



Aside from the two KC games, I disagree. We haven't been able to touch anyone else's QBs with our front four (aside from Dumervil - who was just as good, if not better in a limited role last year) when it counts all season long.


Grossman...Big Ben in the first half...etc. Honestly, after this point I'm done because I'm obviously arguing with someone that has limited knowledge of what he says.


Sorry, but the ability of one to compare two coaches with several years of experience in this league, with a lot of substantive data to cite, is something that (if anything) shows intelligence. Not a sheer lack of it.

I guess we should all stop comparing players that play for different teams now as well.....because they all have different coaches and play in different systems. How on earth would we ever tell who is better?

We aren't comparing Bates career to Coyers! I see you're lost. We are comparing Bates tenure to Coyers in Denver. This thread, and my whole point is to give Bates time! The sheer lack of intelligence is to compare one coach with 1 year on a team to a coach with 6 years on a team, and to FINALIZE the comparisons. That is fine, if you want to say Bates has been worst this season than Coyer ever has, ok. However, hopefully you understand all the variables that come into play. But to want to fire Bates without giving him a full chance is IGNORANCE which is what I have been saying. We had many holes on this team...we can't fix all in 1 season.

Players who play for different teams is different because of their individual responsibility. Coaches are responsible for going to a team and having 11 guys on the field work at success.

However, I can make the same statement here. Champ came to our team in 2004 and didn't play so well. Look at him the next 2 years.

TIME...Broncos fans are so obsessed with NOW NOW NOW...we've been blessed with Jay Cutler. Not every aspect of our team will come in and will positively effect our team on his level, and as quick as he has.

However would we tell whose better? When you talk about coaches, comparisons come through their CAREERS not just ONE SEASON.

[Ray Finkle]

I tried to cover that in the "and for those who aren't carryovers" part.

that is where you side falls flat. You can not properly correlate anything because to the sample sizes do match up....

[Beantown Bronco]

You aren't comprehending me. I'm saying, that this years pass rush has improved as the season moved on, and has been better than the previous years. You're saying that the previous years are just as bad.

Clearly I comprehend what you are saying. I just disagree. I don't believe this year's front four is getting better pressure than past years. I truly believe that the Broncos as a team would have less than 10 sacks each year (including this one) if they did not blitz.

I'm saying you're at memory loss because you truly have forgotten how bad it was a couple years ago. The only time we had pressure was blitzing the past few yours, we have had more pressure this year than the previous years.

Again, I understand what you are saying. I just disagree, after having watched all the games, often more than once. The only time this year's defense has gotten consistent pressure is when they bring 8 in the box and blitz. I have yet to see a game, other than the KC games, where the front four alone have gotten consistent pressure. And by consistent pressure, you have to include an entire game. Grossman and Big Ben (as you admit) were not pressured at all in crunch time. And when they were pressured, it was not just a "front four" effort. The coaches even admitted it after the games. Since the bye week, they have blitzed more and brought 8 in the box regularly.

...Broncos fans are so obsessed with NOW NOW NOW....

Because year-in and year-out, the organization tells the fans that the team is built to win now.....not years from now. They never admit to rebuilding/retooling/etc. And by doing so, they create this very problem themselves.

When you talk about coaches, comparisons come through their CAREERS not just ONE SEASON.

And this is what I've done. I've looked at Bates' career and have come to the very clear conclusion that (1) his defenses are largely not very good against the run and (2) he hasn't coached an above-average defense since 2003. Whether he has "just lost it" or other teams have figured him out, I don't know. All I know is that it's been awhile since he personally has seen the success that some here are crediting him with.

[Beantown Bronco]

that is where you side falls flat. You can not properly correlate anything because to the sample sizes do match up....

The question for Bronco fans is this: Do you really want to wait 3 more years to make the sample sizes truly equivalent?

I made up my mind about Bates before I saw his system in action in the pre-season. The past four months have only confirmed for me what I already feared.

[Ray Finkle]

The question for Bronco fans is this: Do you really want to wait 3 more years to make the sample sizes truly equivalent?

I made up my mind about Bates before I saw his system in action in the pre-season. The past four months have only confirmed for me what I already feared.

..................

Where did I say 3 more years. If you use that nifty search button, you will see I am willing to give him 1 more year.

[Stormontheplains]

Al Wilson the player and leader is the difference. Not having the pro bowl MLB return is like losing your qb. Bates was in a no win without Al or an FA MLB. Everybody seems to forget our dline hit the freshman wall about 2 weeks ago, they are spent as we speek. Next year they will be a hell of alot better.

[Beantown Bronco]

..................

Where did I say 3 more years. If you use that nifty search button, you will see I am willing to give him 1 more year.

I was just trying to do what you asked, which was match up the sample sizes.

[Atlas]

He has had success in GB and in Miami. All you Assholes were in here just 7 months ago saying he was a great D coordinator and now you want to ditch him after one season?

He gets at least two seasons unless Shanny found that he just can't work with the guy.

[AboveAverage]

Bates' track record is just too good to can him after a year. I don't think he just came here and forgot how to coach a defense. He deserves at least one more year.

[Dukes]

The Scott and Al show did a text poll today whether to keep or fire Bates. at the end of show 70% voted to have him fired.

Personally, I'm sick and tired of the coaching carousel and want to see what Bates can do when he's got the players he wants (the players he got this year were not what he wanted, they were the only ones available so don't resort to that excuse).

[PRBronco]

I don't think it's a coincidence that he's had success everywhere else he's been, and his past players have nothing bad to say about him...it's not him, it's us :(

[DenverBrit]

I don't think it's a coincidence that he's had success everywhere else he's been, and his past players have nothing bad to say about him...it's not him, it's us :(

Hole in one! :thumbsup:

[Mediator12]

again, you are off. The only players in the defense now that were in the defense last year (and in the same position) are Bailey, Lynch, Gold, and Engleberger. That is hardly a big enough sample size to draw your conclusion...

Wow! You simply forget that Bates had Access to EVERY single Player Coyer had last year, minus Al Wilson. He cut, released or let walk all these players who started for Coyer last year Lang, Warren, Myers, Veal, Cox. He has benched Ferguson for Abdullah. He added BLY for Dwill and made Foxworth fill Sam Brandon's role as Safety Rover in the nickle. He moved DJ to MLB and allowed Webster to start at SLB.

To boot, he traded for Jimmy Kennedy and cut him. Brought in and started Sam Adams for 11 games and cut him. Promoted 2 practice squad level DT's to Starters in Burton and Gordon and CUT them! Brought in Simeon Rice and Cut him. Drafted 3 DL who have barely played through all the veteran trash he has cut.

Bates made his bed with these personnel moves. He had access to every player outside of Al Wilson that DEN had last year. And every move has yet to bear ANY fruit. So, the comparison Should be valid as he discarded and revamped a semiproductive unit and turned it into a bottom feeder unit. He especially tinkered with the DL with over 20 transactions in his short tenure leading to the worst run defense in DEN history and still no improvement in pass rush consistency.

In short, Bates had the same sample available and chose to use different parts with disastrous results to date. Can anyone name one success he has made in any of those changes?

[Cito Pelon]

Sorry, I'm not gonna vote for either option, because I can't make up my mind how to evaluate this D.

Bates had something to work with, but he tore it up. And "fire him now" doesn't work for me either. There are still two games left, but I don't expect to see much difference in the D in the last two games. If someone put a gun to my head, said "vote, or else", I'd say "shoot me". There's reason to vote option one because it's been such a comical D this year. But Coyer's D looked comical at times also. There's reason to vote for option two for the continuity factor.

I don't know how Bates put together a defense so bad we have to go back to 1968 to find a worse one in total points allowed and number of games where a Bronco D gave up 30+ points. However, there's the factor that some D players liked Coyer and his assistants, played hard for them, had some cohesiveness, were better schooled in there assignments, so they didn't allow a season where the points allowed didn't embarrass the fans since they haven't been embarrassed since 1968. So maybe there's that factor. Maybe after an off-season memories will dim and the holdovers will play better for Bates and his staff. Hell, I don't know.

Bates has been given carte-blanche to rebuild the D I guess. So if that is the premise, then the conclusion is he has to be given another year to rebuild the D.

On the other hand, worst Bronco D since 1968!!!. It's impossible to ignore that. Judging by this season, I'm not enamored of Bates and his staff. They can't get the right number of men on the field still. Will that turn around with another TC? Hell, I don't know. You tell me, I don't have a clue.

So I don't know what to say or vote. So shoot me. Is there a method to Bates' madness, or is he a has-been fool? Hell, I don't know. This D this year is so poor, I can't figure it out.

[Ray Finkle]

Wow! You simply forget that Bates had Access to EVERY single Player Coyer had last year, minus Al Wilson. He cut, released or let walk all these players who started for Coyer last year Lang, Warren, Myers, Veal, Cox. He has benched Ferguson for Abdullah. He added BLY for Dwill and made Foxworth fill Sam Brandon's role as Safety Rover in the nickle. He moved DJ to MLB and allowed Webster to start at SLB.

To boot, he traded for Jimmy Kennedy and cut him. Brought in and started Sam Adams for 11 games and cut him. Promoted 2 practice squad level DT's to Starters in Burton and Gordon and CUT them! Brought in Simeon Rice and Cut him. Drafted 3 DL who have barely played through all the veteran trash he has cut.

Bates made his bed with these personnel moves. He had access to every player outside of Al Wilson that DEN had last year. And every move has yet to bear ANY fruit. So, the comparison Should be valid as he discarded and revamped a semiproductive unit and turned it into a bottom feeder unit. He especially tinkered with the DL with over 20 transactions in his short tenure leading to the worst run defense in DEN history and still no improvement in pass rush consistency.

In short, Bates had the same sample available and chose to use different parts with disastrous results to date. Can anyone name one success he has made in any of those changes?


they were far from semiproductive at the end of the year last year. The same people calling for Coyer's head are the ones defending him now.

[yavoon]

Wow! You simply forget that Bates had Access to EVERY single Player Coyer had last year, minus Al Wilson. He cut, released or let walk all these players who started for Coyer last year Lang, Warren, Myers, Veal, Cox. He has benched Ferguson for Abdullah. He added BLY for Dwill and made Foxworth fill Sam Brandon's role as Safety Rover in the nickle. He moved DJ to MLB and allowed Webster to start at SLB.

To boot, he traded for Jimmy Kennedy and cut him. Brought in and started Sam Adams for 11 games and cut him. Promoted 2 practice squad level DT's to Starters in Burton and Gordon and CUT them! Brought in Simeon Rice and Cut him. Drafted 3 DL who have barely played through all the veteran trash he has cut.

Bates made his bed with these personnel moves. He had access to every player outside of Al Wilson that DEN had last year. And every move has yet to bear ANY fruit. So, the comparison Should be valid as he discarded and revamped a semiproductive unit and turned it into a bottom feeder unit. He especially tinkered with the DL with over 20 transactions in his short tenure leading to the worst run defense in DEN history and still no improvement in pass rush consistency.

In short, Bates had the same sample available and chose to use different parts with disastrous results to date. Can anyone name one success he has made in any of those changes?

pwn.

[Cito Pelon]

I am glad people were bashing Coyer last year, because that goes to the extent of their understanding. The foundation of the defense is the DL and over the last 5 years it has gone from average to one of the worst, if not the worst, I have ever seen. Coyer's defenses were built around the strength's of the players he had, and they deteriorated over time as the DL got worse and worse each year. He covered for real poor DL's for 2 years in 2005 and 2006 and finally ran out of tricks in about the middle of last year.

We have found out how hard it is to cover for that bad of a DL this year with Bates. He had NO idea of how bad that DL was until he got here and saw them. This is a guy with a very good pedigree as a Defensive Coordinator and he has had all the same problems Coyer had to end last year. Somehow, this DL is even worse than last years group. Al Wilson no longer can cover the mistakes of the front four in the running game. And, the only consistent pass rush comes from Dumervil. Even with a huge upgrade at CB with Dre Bly, the defense is still getting abused against the pass and only stops the run occasionally against Very bad teams. It is not easy to have a solid defense with Crap on the DL and this is the worst DL in DEN I have ever seen.

Coyer never once put an average defense on the field in any of the four seasons, despite all the complaints and bashing. In fact, they finished higher in scoring or yardage than the offfense every single year. They were always in the top 10 in scoring defense and they were 3rd, 4th, 16th, and 14th in yards against. They did get massacred against good Offensive teams, but those were games they never could cover for the DL. The better the offense, the harder it becomes to cover for a bad foundation. Nothing is more evident than watching DEN play this year. The DL has killed the rest of the defense more than ever. The LB's and secondary have been more exposed and they are less talented at LB.

The defense was always just good enough under Coyer to win enough games to make the playoffs. It was never the focus of this team, or the unit that was supposed to win games for DEN. In fact, that has been that way all 13 seasons under Shanahan. They were just supposed to hold up well enough that the offense could do its job.

This year, you see how hard it is to do that Job. Coyer's defenses played better than the sum of their parts, until they played elite offenses and then they were exposed for the rag tag nature of their foundation. Bates has not been able to gameplan and trick other OC's as much with this team. In fact, that was never his strength as a DC. He likes to line up and play aggressive and beat the guy in front of you, not devise elaborate gameplans based on deception.

The only reason he is here IMHO is to establish a better base system than the rotating nature of player acquisition in the past. He is here to Implement a defensive scheme that talent can be acquired and developed over time, with players fitting the scheme instead of changing schemes year to year to fit the poor acquisitional fits. Lets give him time to put it all together. At least, there seems to be a philosophical change in how the defense should be run year to year. They made progress going after DL last offseason, now they need to finish the work they started this offseason.

That was pretty good.

". . . . .there seems to be a philosophical change in how the defense should be run year to year." In a nutshell, that's the argument for sticking with Bates.

I don't know what Shanny's reasoning was to fire Coyer, since he had fielded a competent D except for against the most potent O's, and without great talent. I've followed the team closely, and I never could figure out if the D coordinators prior to Bates actually picked their own assistants, or Shanny insisted they keep the same assistant staff. Rhodes came in, and he had the same assistant staff Robinson had. Was that Rhodes' choice, or Shanny's? Coyer took over, and he had pretty much the same assistant staff Robinson had. Was that Coyer's choice, or was that Shanny's?

If Coyer brought in the Browncos, Andre Patterson, Bob Slowik, Jacob Burney, and the ex-Viking lineman, I can't remember his name - Mallard? -, Jimmy Spencer, etc., and failed to make a team out of them, then I can understand why Shanny cut bait. The D was barely hanging in a lot of games with inspired play and jailbreak blitzes, and looking comical at times against crisp O's and good O coaching staffs.

WTH, bad D this year. Real bad D, godawful D. Bates has been given rope to hang himself, and he did so. Maybe a new guy could make a top-ten D in points allowed out of the current roster, Bates and his assistants sure can't. I don't know. There's two games left before the post-mortem begins for me.

[Cito Pelon]

The drumbeat in my head right now is:

"Worst D in 30+ points allowed games in a season since 1968."
"Worst D in 30+ points allowed games in a season since 1968."
"Worst D in 30+ points allowed games in a season since 1968."
"Worst D in 30+ points allowed games in a season since 1968."

[Cito Pelon]

Sorry, I'm not gonna vote for either option, because I can't make up my mind how to evaluate this D.

Bates had something to work with, but he tore it up. And "fire him now" doesn't work for me either. There are still two games left, but I don't expect to see much difference in the D in the last two games. If someone put a gun to my head, said "vote, or else", I'd say "shoot me". There's reason to vote option one because it's been such a comical D this year. But Coyer's D looked comical at times also. There's reason to vote for option two for the continuity factor.

I don't know how Bates put together a defense so bad we have to go back to 1968 to find a worse one in total points allowed and number of games where a Bronco D gave up 30+ points. However, there's the factor that some D players liked Coyer and his assistants, played hard for them, had some cohesiveness, were better schooled in there assignments, so they didn't allow a season where the points allowed didn't embarrass the fans since they haven't been embarrassed since 1968. So maybe there's that factor. Maybe after an off-season memories will dim and the holdovers will play better for Bates and his staff. Hell, I don't know.

Bates has been given carte-blanche to rebuild the D I guess. So if that is the premise, then the conclusion is he has to be given another year to rebuild the D.

On the other hand, worst Bronco D since 1968!!!. It's impossible to ignore that. Judging by this season, I'm not enamored of Bates and his staff. They can't get the right number of men on the field still. Will that turn around with another TC? Hell, I don't know. You tell me, I don't have a clue.

So I don't know what to say or vote. So shoot me. Is there a method to Bates' madness, or is he a has-been fool? Hell, I don't know. This D this year is so poor, I can't figure it out.

[Mediator12]

they were far from semiproductive at the end of the year last year. The same people calling for Coyer's head are the ones defending him now.

They were far from semiproductive at the end of last year, but they were never close to being this bad that a DET, HOU, CHI would put up 30+ a game.

The ONLY teams that put up over 23 against them were INDY and SD. Wait, SF put up 26 in the overtime final loss. DEN was never out of a game except the blowout loss to SD @ SD. How many games has DEN been blown out of this year?

I can not say who was calling for Coyer to be fired last year and who is doing the same for Bates Now or now defending Coyer, there is just too much TO on the board. As I said earlier though, those people are showing the extent of their football knowledge IMHO.

[orinjkrush]

competitive NFL football is often a lot like poker

you have to be able to win with the hand you're dealt

not only if you draw a full house or better.

[~Crash~]

if John Fox is fired as head Coach I b et the guys that voted to keep bates all will be calling for his sieve of a D ass to get canned !

[TheReverend]

They were far from semiproductive at the end of last year, but they were never close to being this bad that a DET, HOU, CHI would put up 30+ a game.

The ONLY teams that put up over 23 against them were INDY and SD. Wait, SF put up 26 in the overtime final loss. DEN was never out of a game except the blowout loss to SD @ SD. How many games has DEN been blown out of this year?

I can not say who was calling for Coyer to be fired last year and who is doing the same for Bates Now or now defending Coyer, there is just too much TO on the board. As I said earlier though, those people are showing the extent of their football knowledge IMHO.

A ring of fame linebacker with a broken neck and the unrivaled team defensive leader.

A ring of fame/hall of fame WR out all year and the unrivaled team offensive leader.

Don't forget the unceremonious departures of player favorites as the coaching staff shoved them to the curb (Jake Plummer, and previously mentioned Al Wilson).

What's left is what you see on Sunday, a team in transition to new, inexperienced leadership that's unfortunately all too willing to roll over and die some sundays.

PS. You mentioned the DL turnover this season and asked which moves were "successful" but you've been stomping your feet for the "Browncos" to get shipped out of town for quite some time... what moves would you have made that Bates didn't?

PPS. If that 2005 DL was the "worst you ever saw" then you're in some massive denial.

[Mediator12]

A ring of fame linebacker with a broken neck and the unrivaled team defensive leader.

A ring of fame/hall of fame WR out all year and the unrivaled team offensive leader.

Don't forget the unceremonious departures of player favorites as the coaching staff shoved them to the curb (Jake Plummer, and previously mentioned Al Wilson).

What's left is what you see on Sunday, a team in transition to new, inexperienced leadership that's unfortunately all too willing to roll over and die some sundays.

PS. You mentioned the DL turnover this season and asked which moves were "successful" but you've been stomping your feet for the "Browncos" to get shipped out of town for quite some time... what moves would you have made that Bates didn't?

PPS. If that 2005 DL was the "worst you ever saw" then you're in some massive denial.

I am not sure where you got 2005, but the DL has deteriorated every year since 2003, when it was average. The 2005 DL at least was very good against the run. However, each year it has got a little worse, with this year's group taking the cake as one of the worst I have ever seen. They do exactly nothing well and continually make the rest of the defense cover their assignments. The lack of chesmistry and congruity has made them perform worse than the nature of their talent. I see them playing all kinds of disjointed techniques along the line, routinely missing gaps mentally, getting blown off the ball completely by below average OL, and not having any sort of consistency rushing the passer STILL!

The Browncos were very lateral moves that did nothing to improve the defense, just give them bodies. Courtney Brown was a very good LDE, but he just broke down. Warren played when he felt like it, Myers was a solid Blue collar guy who should have been a rotational player, Ekuban quit on plays and barely produced a pass rush, Lang was a high effort guy, but none was the above average guy they needed to replace Pryce. As much as Trevor Needed to go, they have never replaced his talent. I like Elvis and I hope he continues to get better versus the run, but he is a pass rusher right now.

As for Personnel moves, Grady Jackson became available. Kris Jenkins or another DT from Carolina in the preseason would have made a difference in a trade. Kerney was there, but they let SEA outbid them. That is 3 offseasons in a row they did not get a quality DL replacement in FA. Instead, they traded for journeymen or home run style bust projects. In short, they failed to bring in a player that made a difference up front in this scheme.

I liked the way they tried to get DL in the draft, but they could have gotten much better value from those 3 selections IMHO. DL were plentiful in that draft and they could have maneuvered to get them better. I do like the guys they selected, but Thomas does not fit their style of DT. I also worried about Crowder's mental ability to transition to the NFL game as he is no longer head and shoulders athletically better than he was in college. Hopefully, he works through that this offseason.

My problem is the extent of the collapse on Defense. The lack of being able to stop the run, even with 8 in the box, has led to more weaknesses being exploited. They no longer do anything well and now they give up cheap TD's almost every game.

[fontaine]

Firing Coyer is easily one of Shanahan's top five mistakes in his tenure.

Possibly. But the silver lining in all of that is Mike now realizes that he doesn't have a D-Coordinator that can knit together a decent defense with leftovers on the front 7. With Coyer's track record there was always that option that we could just ignore the DL in the draft, and now with Bates' D failing miserably we have to continue drafting and brining in quality DL which will go a long way towards addressing the weakeness up front in the trenches.

[TheReverend]

I am not sure where you got 2005, but the DL has deteriorated every year since 2003, when it was average. The 2005 DL at least was very good against the run. However, each year it has got a little worse, with this year's group taking the cake as one of the worst I have ever seen. They do exactly nothing well and continually make the rest of the defense cover their assignments. The lack of chesmistry and congruity has made them perform worse than the nature of their talent. I see them playing all kinds of disjointed techniques along the line, routinely missing gaps mentally, getting blown off the ball completely by below average OL, and not having any sort of consistency rushing the passer STILL!

The Browncos were very lateral moves that did nothing to improve the defense, just give them bodies. Courtney Brown was a very good LDE, but he just broke down. Warren played when he felt like it, Myers was a solid Blue collar guy who should have been a rotational player, Ekuban quit on plays and barely produced a pass rush, Lang was a high effort guy, but none was the above average guy they needed to replace Pryce. As much as Trevor Needed to go, they have never replaced his talent. I like Elvis and I hope he continues to get better versus the run, but he is a pass rusher right now.

As for Personnel moves, Grady Jackson became available. Kris Jenkins or another DT from Carolina in the preseason would have made a difference in a trade. Kerney was there, but they let SEA outbid them. That is 3 offseasons in a row they did not get a quality DL replacement in FA. Instead, they traded for journeymen or home run style bust projects. In short, they failed to bring in a player that made a difference up front in this scheme.

I liked the way they tried to get DL in the draft, but they could have gotten much better value from those 3 selections IMHO. DL were plentiful in that draft and they could have maneuvered to get them better. I do like the guys they selected, but Thomas does not fit their style of DT. I also worried about Crowder's mental ability to transition to the NFL game as he is no longer head and shoulders athletically better than he was in college. Hopefully, he works through that this offseason.

My problem is the extent of the collapse on Defense. The lack of being able to stop the run, even with 8 in the box, has led to more weaknesses being exploited. They no longer do anything well and now they give up cheap TD's almost every game.

1. Don't try to butter me up with your Courtney Brown talk, because it always works.

2. Warren played hard when healthy, not when he chose to.

3. Agree on Myers.

4. Completely disagree on Ekuban. Nearly every sack he had came from coverage and not quitting/high effort.

5. Grady Jackson? Are you kidding or serious?

6. Who wouldn't want Kris Jenkins in their front four? I think the rumors of his off-season "availability" were grossly inflated.

7. The FO made a run at Kerney but he made his choice. Would I rather have Kerney here than Henry right now? Right now, yes. But when the O-line starts consistently making holes again, that may be up for re-evaluation.

My point is, the effort on making changes certainly was there, and the only potential upgrades you can think of were either sought after and quite possibly not even available.

[Mediator12]

1. Don't try to butter me up with your Courtney Brown talk, because it always works.

2. Warren played hard when healthy, not when he chose to.

3. Agree on Myers.

4. Completely disagree on Ekuban. Nearly every sack he had came from coverage and not quitting/high effort.

5. Grady Jackson? Are you kidding or serious?

6. Who wouldn't want Kris Jenkins in their front four? I think the rumors of his off-season "availability" were grossly inflated.

7. The FO made a run at Kerney but he made his choice. Would I rather have Kerney here than Henry right now? Right now, yes. But when the O-line starts consistently making holes again, that may be up for re-evaluation.

My point is, the effort on making changes certainly was there, and the only potential upgrades you can think of were either sought after and quite possibly not even available.


4. Ekuban did quit a lot, did not produce a pass rush unless it WAS a coverage sack, slacked on any assignment he did not like, and missed a bunch of opportunities overall. His "I did not even try to cover LT the second time we ran that play" comment would have been enough to bench him if they had anything left to replace him with last year. How do admit to the press that you did not even try to do your job on a play?

5. Serious about Grady. He is a much better run stopper than Big Sam was this year and ATL was FOOLISH to let him go midseason. Plus, Johnson had him in ATL and knew he could do the job.

6. Jenkins was unhappy with his contract and a lot of that was posturing. However, it was not unlike the same situation that prompted the Bailey/Portis trade. Jenkins would have been happy to leave CAR and get paid in DEN, just like Bailey did. Now, it would have cost something, but that would be worth it just like Champ was worth it.

7. The front office made Kerney a priority and then failed to make the deal that would have kept him. They had a shot to keep him as he came to DEN first and had their DL coach who he already knew. He left and quickly accepted a better offer from SEA.

The effort to change was there, no question. However the actual decisions bore little or NO fruit. There were over 20 DL transactions, maybe WAY too many for any team to handle and continued scheme adjustment. The decisions backfired, pure and simple. In no way shape or form, does that necessarily translate into wanting Bates let go on my part. I just want them to develop a scheme, acquire players that fit it instead of just getting bodies, and make a plan that develops the young DL they acquired in the draft.

I really want them to develop a defensive scheme consistency and let Bates work it and acquire the parts needed to make it work. I also want them to make better personnel decisions that allow more scheme specific talent to be aqcuired for less money and draft collateral to increase depth and get more injury proof on defense. Find what you need, versus reaching for greater all around talent that comes at a much higher price.

[TheReverend]

4. Ekuban did quit a lot, did not produce a pass rush unless it WAS a coverage sack, slacked on any assignment he did not like, and missed a bunch of opportunities overall. His "I did not even try to cover LT the second time we ran that play" comment would have been enough to bench him if they had anything left to replace him with last year. How do admit to the press that you did not even try to do your job on a play?

5. Serious about Grady. He is a much better run stopper than Big Sam was this year and ATL was FOOLISH to let him go midseason. Plus, Johnson had him in ATL and knew he could do the job.

6. Jenkins was unhappy with his contract and a lot of that was posturing. However, it was not unlike the same situation that prompted the Bailey/Portis trade. Jenkins would have been happy to leave CAR and get paid in DEN, just like Bailey did. Now, it would have cost something, but that would be worth it just like Champ was worth it.

7. The front office made Kerney a priority and then failed to make the deal that would have kept him. They had a shot to keep him as he came to DEN first and had their DL coach who he already knew. He left and quickly accepted a better offer from SEA.

The effort to change was there, no question. However the actual decisions bore little or NO fruit. There were over 20 DL transactions, maybe WAY too many for any team to handle and continued scheme adjustment. The decisions backfired, pure and simple. In no way shape or form, does that necessarily translate into wanting Bates let go on my part. I just want them to develop a scheme, acquire players that fit it instead of just getting bodies, and make a plan that develops the young DL they acquired in the draft.

I really want them to develop a defensive scheme consistency and let Bates work it and acquire the parts needed to make it work. I also want them to make better personnel decisions that allow more scheme specific talent to be aqcuired for less money and draft collateral to increase depth and get more injury proof on defense. Find what you need, versus reaching for greater all around talent that comes at a much higher price.

5. Considering Shanahan's tendency to take personnel advice from assistants (ie. Browncos infusion), you'd think if his line coach thought Grady would be a massive help and not a massive pile of crap, we'd have been in line on the waiver wire.

6. You'll hear no argument from me that Jenkins would have been worth it to DEN, but would it have been worth it to CAR to pull the trigger?

7. Kerney's made a wonderful impact this season, but will it hold up to be worth his contract $$ for it's duration or will he be dead money weighing Seattle down in a few years?

As per your final point... I think everyone wants that... except for the irrational "fire everyone midway through their first season" crew. Patience and consistency brings results, and imo, everyone should have 3 years... two at a minimum.

[Mediator12]

5. Considering Shanahan's tendency to take personnel advice from assistants (ie. Browncos infusion), you'd think if his line coach thought Grady would be a massive help and not a massive pile of crap, we'd have been in line on the waiver wire.

6. You'll hear no argument from me that Jenkins would have been worth it to DEN, but would it have been worth it to CAR to pull the trigger?

7. Kerney's made a wonderful impact this season, but will it hold up to be worth his contract $$ for it's duration or will he be dead money weighing Seattle down in a few years?

As per your final point... I think everyone wants that... except for the irrational "fire everyone midway through their first season" crew. Patience and consistency brings results, and imo, everyone should have 3 years... two at a minimum.

I think patience is the worst flaw in Fans. They would rather applaud super high risk moves to "Win Now" rather than truly build a sustainable product. How many CLE fans were wanting to throw Romeo Crennel out on his ass before the season, and NOW they are playoff bound with a bright young corp of exciting players.

Also, the Browncos experiment with their DL coach supporting them kind of burned Mike. Therefore, he could be trigger happy on using that strategy again real soon. He usually evaluates things on whether they worked or not, instead of WHY they worked or did not ;D

6. That was my point. DEN gave Portis to WAS, DEN would have had to make it attractive to get Jenkins. However, they have shown the willingness to do that in trades that other teams would never even consider. I think that is definitely one of their strengths, it just does not work for journeyman or reclamation projects they chose to trade for on the DL.

7. I think Kerney is going to be like Strahan though. Strahan is a better player, but they both have savy, experience, and superb technique going for them. He should be productive into his mid to late thirties due to that, plus his motor. He is only 30 now and turns 31 on 12/30 of this year. I can see 3-4 years more of quality production, but hey its the NFL and next week could be your last!

[TheReverend]

I think patience is the worst flaw in Fans. They would rather applaud super high risk moves to "Win Now" rather than truly build a sustainable product. How many CLE fans were wanting to throw Romeo Crennel out on his ass before the season, and NOW they are playoff bound with a bright young corp of exciting players.

Also, the Browncos experiment with their DL coach supporting them kind of burned Mike. Therefore, he could be trigger happy on using that strategy again real soon. He usually evaluates things on whether they worked or not, instead of WHY they worked or did not ;D

6. That was my point. DEN gave Portis to WAS, DEN would have had to make it attractive to get Jenkins. However, they have shown the willingness to do that in trades that other teams would never even consider. I think that is definitely one of their strengths, it just does not work for journeyman or reclamation projects they chose to trade for on the DL.

7. I think Kerney is going to be like Strahan though. Strahan is a better player, but they both have savy, experience, and superb technique going for them. He should be productive into his mid to late thirties due to that, plus his motor. He is only 30 now and turns 31 on 12/30 of this year. I can see 3-4 years more of quality production, but hey its the NFL and next week could be your last!

6. Our second may have been too far away for carolina to consider as they were rumored to want a first and only dropping to high second rounder... that would have required Den to trade back our first when we were targetting Timmons, Harrell and Moss at the middle of the first. What else could we have offered? A LB with a broken neck? System linemen? Old safeties? An average nickleback?

7. I think Kerney lasts, at best, one more productive season. Last year he began to break down, and I admit he's had a terrific bounce back this year, but how much longer can he take it?

Anyone calling for Romeo's head is flat out retarded. He's been in process of building a competent defense and was fielding inept QBs. Another solid 2 drafts and they'll be legit contenders for a long time to come.

[fontaine]

I'd rather keep Bates for another season or two just to avoid the situation of having to start over with a new guy. We don't need to rebuild the entire defense just bring in two quality guys for the front 7.

I can certainly understand the people here being disapointed with all the DL moves Bates made that flat out busted but in his defense it's not like he was spoiled for choice. The DL guys were all trash to begin with (apart from maybe Warren) so guys coming in and then out like Burton, Adams, Gordon, Kennedy etc were all scraping the bottom of the barrell anyway.

Where Bates needs to prove himself this offseason is to target the right talent in FA and the draft because a couple of key players along the front 7 could potentially turn this defense into a good one.