environmentalists sue to stop wind farm

[yavoon]

http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/other/12/05/1205wind.html

I wonder sometimes if they want humans to make any energy at all. or if they'd rather just kill us off and give earth back to "nature."

[cutthemdown]

Nuclear power is the way to go. When oil isn't needed anymore because we all drive electric cars and have homes powered by nuclear power we will have won the battle.

[cutthemdown]

Birds will die if the climate keeps warming as well so I would think a few hundred wind turbines would be a small price to pay to get on the way to producing less co2.

[defenseman]

Nuclear power is the way to go. When oil isn't needed anymore because we all drive electric cars and have homes powered by nuclear power we will have won the battle.

being a "nukey" I'll tell you that, in the long term it's a good investment. More improvements in the storage of waste, in addition to improving the method by which waste is processed to reduce it's half life is needed for the long term. Long lived waste can be reduced, but it is a costly process. It needs to be refined and reduced in cost. It's amazing too me that, we all want to find other sources, but just when you believe you've got something like "wind" power, the enviromentalists sue. I'm thinking, alot of enviromentalist would be happy if they reverted the United States back to the stoneage....dman

[defenseman]

Birds will die if the climate keeps warming as well so I would think a few hundred wind turbines would be a small price to pay to get on the way to producing less co2.

Tell that too the enviromentalists, they'll find a way to sue, and again, NO PROGRESS is made...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Nuclear power is the way to go. When oil isn't needed anymore because we all drive electric cars and have homes powered by nuclear power we will have won the battle.Only if we can store the nuclear waste in your basement, you good with that?

And I can tell you that being one who works in the industry that nuclear power is NOT the way to go.

[defenseman]

Only if we can store the nuclear waste in your basement, you good with that?

And I can tell you that being one who works in the industry that nuclear power is NOT the way to go.

You have stored nuclear material? Operated reactors? What "facet" of the industry are you associated with? Construction of power plants? ....dman

[alkemical]

I think you'd have to build some more nuke plants "short term" to get us over the hump until we get other technologies in place.

Make ALL vehicles flex-fuel. So they can use methanol/ethanol/etc & gas. This will allow more gas stations to carry fuels for a larger market. (Instead of 1%-3% as currently is, you can expand it out much larger). This will introduce competition against Oil and force the price to be adjusted.

Next you have to implement technologies for each region. Solar won't work so well in seattle "most" of the time, etc. So you have to really engineer this to each region. Harness the power of the tides, etc.

This is our opportunity to be creative, and to pioneer a new solution. We can also use it as a time to rebuild our infrastructure to take advantage of the new directions we are going. With new building materials, etc.

If we use this opportunity correctly, we will set ourselves up for the next 50 years in a way that could really revamp how business, energy, technology & education are modeled.

[Bronco Bob]

I think you'd have to build some more nuke plants "short term" to get us over the hump until we get other technologies in place.



Fusors. Potential for unlimited nuclear energy, using readily available fuels
and almost no radioactive byproducts. Could even be used to convert
radioactive materials to non-radioactive. Just needs some serious funding.

http://fusor.net/

[defenseman]

Fusors. Potential for unlimited nuclear energy, using readily available fuels
and almost no radioactive byproducts. Could even be used to convert
radioactive materials to non-radioactive. Just needs some serious funding.

http://fusor.net/

Interesting to see someone else here knows of fusors. Metal chamber, at a vacuam, deuterium gas, high voltage power supply and an inner and outer plate. correctly charged it does work. Only draw back is the amount of energy released is less than the amount it takes to cause the reaction, ergo, not cost effective presently. I'll agree with you though, once you make energy released > energy in...you've got something. serious funding? LOTS of serious funding agreed. Love to see it come to fruition though.....dman

*Sheilding would be one issue I would be concerned with though. You need a fair amount of lead or water to protected yourself, maybe some borated poly, from the energy release on a large scale. Safety first young man.

[Garcia Bronco]

I'll agree with you though, once you make energy released > energy in....

From a physics perspective....isn't this impossible without a Super Conductor??

[defenseman]

From a physics perspective....isn't this impossible without a Super Conductor??

Theoretically speaking, you need two plates, the inner being negative the outer being a (+) relative to the inner plate. The high voltage power supply would control the rate at which ionization of the deuterium gas occurs. Higher the charge, the more ionization that occurs. The ions while being attracted to the a charged plate, though, due to the plates design, not all ions will necessarily impact the plate, many of them fuse together instead. Ergo, fusion......and energy release occurs during the actual fusion of the ions...dman

*I've always thought that you could get more of an energy release via tritium vice deuterium. However, haven't seen any research in that area. Problem with tritium though is you may end up with a form of carbon build up from the reaction over time..

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I think you'd have to build some more nuke plants "short term" to get us over the hump until we get other technologies in place.

Make ALL vehicles flex-fuel. So they can use methanol/ethanol/etc & gas. This will allow more gas stations to carry fuels for a larger market. (Instead of 1%-3% as currently is, you can expand it out much larger). This will introduce competition against Oil and force the price to be adjusted.

Next you have to implement technologies for each region. Solar won't work so well in seattle "most" of the time, etc. So you have to really engineer this to each region. Harness the power of the tides, etc.

This is our opportunity to be creative, and to pioneer a new solution. We can also use it as a time to rebuild our infrastructure to take advantage of the new directions we are going. With new building materials, etc.

If we use this opportunity correctly, we will set ourselves up for the next 50 years in a way that could really revamp how business, energy, technology & education are modeled.No such thing as short term nuclear power plants and it takes 10-12 years to complete one, if you are able to secure property and permits and find a state that doesn't care if you dump nuclear waste in it.

[cutthemdown]

Only if we can store the nuclear waste in your basement, you good with that?

And I can tell you that being one who works in the industry that nuclear power is NOT the way to go.

The waste of course is the biggest problem and I wouldn't think I know more then you since you work in the industry. I think we will push for nuclear energy more in India then we will here at home. It's not just about reducing our demand it's about reducing the worlds demand. All that will pinch our enemies and get oil out of the equation.

WASHINGTON: As the world discusses a new agreement to fight global warming, the US says nuclear energy will be a "key piece of the equation" for the future of India's contribution to adjusting climate change.

"There is no question that nuclear power has to be part of the solution," a key advisor of President George Bush told reporters Wednesday at a White House briefing on the UN conference on climate change underway at Bali, Indonesia.

This was so because "it is the only energy source right now that can produce base-load affordably to millions of people in urban areas without any emissions," said James Connaughton, chairman of US Environmental Quality when asked how the US-India civil nuclear deal will help.

"So if you want the biggest savings in CO2, for the best delivery of electricity that's most reliable, nuclear power is all we have right now. Renewables are important; efficiency is very important; but they do not provide base-load power.

"And so, the work with India, for the future of India's energy security, the future of India's air pollution, air quality, and the future of India's contribution to adjusting climate change, nuclear has got to be a key piece of the equation," he said.

Describing China as "critical", Connaughton said, "China's emissions probably already exceed those of the United States. If not, they will soon. And there's no question that by 2020, they will vastly exceed the United States."

"Countries such as India, Brazil, Mexico, South Africa, heavy fossil fuel-using countries, they need to be part of the equation, too," he said noting, "within the coming decades, most of the growth in greenhouse gases is going to come from the big developing countries."

"We have historic responsibility to take care of what we are now doing. But if we want to truly effect the long-term temperature trend, we can't afford for the major developing countries to wait. So we need strategies."

The Asia Pacific Partnership on Clean Development and Climate launched by Bush was the first multilateral group that included India and China, and the newly OECD economy of South Korea, in a shared agenda on sectoral efforts to reduce greenhouse gases in the major energy sectors, he said.

That has been the catalyst for the major economies process initiated by Bush, Connaughton said outlining the US stand on the issue in the context of Bali meetings to work out a new UN Franework Convention on Climate Change after the Kyoto Protocol expires in 2012.

Washington was hoping to convene another meeting of the major economies, including India and China after the conclusion of Bali meetings as Bush considers energy security and climate change as "two of the greatest challenges of our time," he said.

Asked to comment on Senator John Warner's remark that "China and India will simply hide behind America's skirts of inaction," If the US didn't take the lead, Connaughton said, the US "is already leading in a substantial way."

It had undertaken a wide range of programmes that equal or exceed much of what's being done in the rest of the world, he said.

"There's a very strong commitment here," added Under Secretary of State for Democracy and Global Affairs Paula Dobriansky with the US contributing over the last five to six years some $37 billion to the process.

Noting that many of the developing countries like India and China have particularly talked about access to energy and growing their economies, she said, "These initiatives and these monies have been devoted particularly not only to science research, but to the development of technologies, which is key."

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The waste of course is the biggest problem and I wouldn't think I know more then you since you work in the industry. I think we will push for nuclear energy more in India then we will here at home. It's not just about reducing our demand it's about reducing the worlds demand. All that will pinch our enemies and get oil out of the equation.
France is a good example of why not to litter the country with nuclear power plants. Contaminated ground water, heaps of waste at many locations and no solution for either.

Eliminating CO2 is imperative but at what price? If it was only monetary then I'm all for it but there is no way of disposing of nuclear waste and no state wants it nor should they.

[alkemical]

No such thing as short term nuclear power plants and it takes 10-12 years to complete one, if you are able to secure property and permits and find a state that doesn't care if you dump nuclear waste in it.

Why not find a way to keep "reusing it":

Example: Dman can maybe clear this up. Don't nuclear subs use some of the material from nuke plants? If so, why can't we build a reactor, then have a "support" reactor that can use the waste, etc.

I figured short term would be 30 years. Not like 2yrs.

[Bob]

I think that the Muslims are to blame....

Am I on the right thread?

[cutthemdown]

I think that the Muslims are to blame....

Am I on the right thread?

You're not, this is the it's Bush's fault thread.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Why not find a way to keep "reusing it":

Example: Dman can maybe clear this up. Don't nuclear subs use some of the material from nuke plants? If so, why can't we build a reactor, then have a "support" reactor that can use the waste, etc.

I figured short term would be 30 years. Not like 2yrs.There is no way to do that. Nuclear power plants are so expensive now that it takes decades to generate profits.

[defenseman]

There is no way to do that. Nuclear power plants are so expensive now that it takes decades to generate profits.

If it's a profit based endeavor, then you are correct, the realized "profit" is down the road a bit. I'll agree with you there. If it's not, and it's a "public owned utility" you have an entirely different scenario. For example, Omaha Public Power District (OPPD) operates a reactor just north of Omaha, NE in a town called Blair, the Fort Calhoun power plant to get specific. They are public owned. That said, any slight profit made goes to salaries and right back into the plant. Recently, this organization changed out three major components in the primary system of the reactor during one shutdown period, it had never been done, was on budget and the reactor is now licensed for another 30 years or so if I recall. All that and the utility rates here in NE are the lowest I have ever seen. Very few locations in the country can match the low rates here in Omaha. This is a perfect example of how, if managed and funded correctly, the result is absolutely excellent. In addition, they spare no expense on security of the facility, have visited it recently, I'll tell you that the layers of security to enter the facility was incredible. I am not worried about any wacko attempting to enter that facility. They won't get far.........dman

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

All that will pinch our enemies and get oil out of the equation.


That's assuming there is the political will to "get oil out of the equation."

No sign of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future.

[defenseman]

That's assuming there is the political will to "get oil out of the equation."

No sign of that happening anytime in the foreseeable future.

I do believe you are correct on this to a degree...dman

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I do believe you are correct on this to a degree...dman

Big Oil owns our government - lock, stock and barrel.

[cutthemdown]

I agree it's the oil/auto lobby holding back the govt. The way we fix that is by removing special interests from govt. We don't need our politicians spending millions on a campaing only to be beholden to the groups that gave it to them. It's straight bribery and until we fix it it probably won't change.

[cutthemdown]

The only way IMO to beat Iran/Russia/Venezuala/Saudi Arbia etc is to make oil not worth as much. It seems like a no brainer to me but I agree it will take another 20 years to get there.

[alkemical]

MAKE ALL CARS FLEX FUEL SO COMPETITION IS ON THE MARKET - that won't take 20years.

[cutthemdown]

MAKE ALL CARS FLEX FUEL SO COMPETITION IS ON THE MARKET - that won't take 20years.

We have to look at it like little steps like this that will lead us to where we want to be in 20 yrs. Once it starts rolling i feel it will be like a snowball. Pretty soon 10 percent of cars will be hybrids or electric, then 20, then 30, then 40, then who knows how high maybe all the to 100. It could be like that Rush song Red Barchetta that sings about a time where all the cars are powered by air and combustion engines are outlawed.

I think the landscape of energy and transportation will look very different in 20 years. I'm talking high speed bullet trains, electric cars, solar powered homes etc

[alkemical]

We have to look at it like little steps like this that will lead us to where we want to be in 20 yrs. Once it starts rolling i feel it will be like a snowball. Pretty soon 10 percent of cars will be hybrids or electric, then 20, then 30, then 40, then who knows how high maybe all the to 100. It could be like that Rush song Red Barchetta that sings about a time where all the cars are powered by air and combustion engines are outlawed.

I think the landscape of energy and transportation will look very different in 20 years. I'm talking high speed bullet trains, electric cars, solar powered homes etc

My problem with hybrid cars is - you still have to deal with the batteries. With electric cars - the power is still generated "somewhere" - thus you are still creating pollution.

[yavoon]

My problem with hybrid cars is - you still have to deal with the batteries. With electric cars - the power is still generated "somewhere" - thus you are still creating pollution.

ethanol sucks. learn to make it out of something other than corn and learn to pipe it and maybe it will stop sucking.

[alkemical]

you can use methanol too - duh!

[Bronco Bob]

My problem with hybrid cars is - you still have to deal with the batteries. With electric cars - the power is still generated "somewhere" - thus you are still creating pollution.

That's also my problem with hydrogen. It doesn't exist on its own naturally.
You have to extract hydrogen from something else, and that too creates
pollution.

[W*GS]

Big Oil owns our government - lock, stock and barrel.

I thought it was Big Pharma.

I guess Big Government is owned by Big X for each X that's the left-wing boogeyman-o-the-week.

[baja]

http://www.healthranger.org/

http://www.newstarget.com/the_FDA.html

http://www.newstarget.com/big_pharma.html

[W*GS]

A guy that looks like this:

http://www.healthranger.org/images/AdamsShoulderTopBW150.jpg

sure impresses baja...

[W*GS]

Just a snarky comment on the "Health Ranger". He says:

The Health Ranger is:

100% television free
100% alcohol free
100% nicotine free
100% drug free (recreational and pharmaceutical)
100% red meat free
100% fragrance free
100% free!

We'll have to ask those nearest him about the veracity of that...

[baja]

Wags you are a true fool.

[baja]

http://www.truthpublishing.com/naturalhealthsolutions_p/yprint-cat21391.htm

[cutthemdown]

That's also my problem with hydrogen. It doesn't exist on its own naturally.
You have to extract hydrogen from something else, and that too creates
pollution.

We can use coal, turn it in to a liquid oil, or a gas, burn it, make electricity, take the Co2 and pump it into giant vats of algae that eat the co2 and release o2. I heard the hold up on this was that it doesn't become cost effective unless oil is above 40 dollars a barrel. Well I think it;s safe to say we will be over that mark from this point on.

I also read the can inject the co2 back into the earth. We have lots of coal so figuring a way we could use it would be great.

[yavoon]

We can use coal, turn it in to a liquid oil, or a gas, burn it, make electricity, take the Co2 and pump it into giant vats of algae that eat the co2 and release o2. I heard the hold up on this was that it doesn't become cost effective unless oil is above 40 dollars a barrel. Well I think it;s safe to say we will be over that mark from this point on.

I also read the can inject the co2 back into the earth. We have lots of coal so figuring a way we could use it would be great.

I like the vats of algae twist.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

That's also my problem with hydrogen. It doesn't exist on its own naturally. You have to extract hydrogen from something else, and that too creates
pollution.

And requires energy.

[cutthemdown]

I heard scientist have figured out how to use the suns solar power to extract Hydrogen from seawater. The energy is free and clean to make the hydrogen, then use the hydrogen in combustion engines with the byproduct as water and oxygen. All this is pretty expensive but becomes viable with oil so expensive.

[spdirty]

just wish we would go take Iraqs oil, not buy it, but take it, and drill our own oil...and kill Chavez and take their oil.

If you wanna save the planet go buy carbon credits.

[Taco John]

just wish we would go take Iraqs oil, not buy it, but take it, and drill our own oil...and kill Chavez and take their oil.

If you wanna save the planet go buy carbon credits.


I see no reason to steal our oil. I'm more than willing to pay my way in whatever it is I get involved with. I'd just as soon not turn America into a thief.

[bcbronc]

re: the original article, I thought there was pretty sound scientific evidence that said wind farms had no effect on migratory birds?


i've heard good things recently on bio-diesel. made from saffola (I think) and the leftover meal can be used for animal feed. apparently it is much more efficient than corn ethanol.

corn ethanol is simply ridiculous and needs to go away.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

just wish we would go take Iraqs oil, not buy it, but take it, and drill our own oil...and kill Chavez and take their oil.


You're giving W*GS a boner. ;)

[baja]

I see no reason to steal our oil. I'm more than willing to pay my way in whatever it is I get involved with. <b> I'd just as soon not turn America into a thief.</b>

It's way too late for that!!

[baja]

re: the original article, I thought there was pretty sound scientific evidence that said wind farms had no effect on migratory birds?


i've heard good things recently on bio-diesel. made from saffola (I think) and the leftover meal can be used for animal feed. apparently it is much more efficient than corn ethanol.

corn ethanol is simply ridiculous and needs to go away.

Hemp is by far the best candidate for ethanol because it does not deplete the soil it is grown in.

[spdirty]

I see no reason to steal our oil. I'm more than willing to pay my way in whatever it is I get involved with. I'd just as soon not turn America into a thief.

oh then just say we would be "acquiring" it...feel better?

But Iraq owes us

[alkemical]

Owes us for what?