Trading Champ Bailey?

[lex]

OK, just off the top Id like to say that the guy is amazing. Hes an all time top 3 CB. I think he's playing hurt but havent really heard about him complaining. But there are a few truths weve been confronted with.

One is that no matter how great your best CB is, he is a nonfactor without the front 7 getting sufficient pressure. In our case, Champ has been the first piece of the puzzle and it should be the last piece of the puzzle.

Second, we went out and got Champ after a loss to Indy in the playoffs, one in which the CBs struggled. As Ive said, Champ has been great but it might more important to have good 2nd and 3rd corners than it is to have a great #1 corner.

Im not saying we should trade Champ but if it makes us a better football team, its something to consider because were a team that has been built back to front more than front to back and good teams are usually built more front to back. I think Champ has several years of being a good CB left but after that he is such a good tackler he can easily become a S. So Champ should have value.

[The MVPlaya]

Wow...what a dumbass.

[SoCalBronco]

Wow...what a dumbass.

No....he's NOT a dumbass, its a thought provoking question. Certainly an interesting one for debate. I remember discussing this with NFLBRONCO a few months ago. Obviously, Champ's value is very, very high not just in the market, but to our team. If you think its bad now on defense, it would get alot worse without him. I would be generally opposed to the concept because a) Champ is only like 28 or so, therefore I think he still has probably 4 more really high quality years left. I think the rest of our D can be rebuilt well before that time so that we can have 2-3 big time title run years before he falls into serious decline. We may very well be able to have things in order for a very serious run by next year as well, its very possible, given that we appear to be, according to Herc, well under the cap, and if we pick high enough and trade down and get more picks and play our cards right there, we very well may be able to be a 12-4 type team next year given the rate at which the offense is progressing. Obviously, if someone completely knocks our socks off with an offer, we'd have to at least look at it. At an absolute minimum, it would need to be two first round picks on a team generally thought to be relatively weak, so that there can be the reasonable expectation of two fairly high first rounders, to even think about it.

It's a fascinating question...thanks for bringing it up, lex.

[-Slap-]

If the team was in complete rebuilding mode, trading Champ would be the smartest move we could make. That's hardly the case, though. It takes great players to win championships. I wouldn't want to trade one of the indisputably great players in the League.

[bpc]

The player we saw the last two years wearing #24 was the defensive player of the year. This year... Bates has royally screwed him up.

I'm going to stick with Champ. We aren't in total rebuilding mode as some have pointed out and we really aren't that far away from having a solid defense out on the field next season. We need to committ to making DT our first priority in the offseason by signing a couple of big studs. We all know the name Corey Williams. Setting up Marcus Thomas and Corey Williams in the middle of our defense will give it strength and push up the middle which will flush QB's in the waiting arms of Crowder, Moss, Doom.

We need some moves to be made at LB but I think most would be surprised at how fast that unit starts looking effective when the DL is playing better. Still, improvements need to be made over Gold and Webster.

We still need a lot of help at safety.

Any team can make a tremendous improvement from year to year if the right players are added. We need a leadership type guy, who takes accountability for his squad and isn't afraid to jack somebody in the jaw if players don't get in line.

[socalorado]

No....he's NOT a dumbass, its a thought provoking question. Certainly an interesting one for debate. I remember discussing this with NFLBRONCO a few months ago. Obviously, Champ's value is very, very high not just in the market, but to our team. If you think its bad now on defense, it would get alot worse without him. I would be generally opposed to the concept because a) Champ is only like 28 or so, therefore I think he still has probably 4 more really high quality years left. I think the rest of our D can be rebuilt well before that time so that we can have 2-3 big time title run years before he falls into serious decline. We may very well be able to have things in order for a very serious run by next year as well, its very possible, given that we appear to be, according to Herc, well under the cap, and if we pick high enough and trade down and get more picks and play our cards right there, we very well may be able to be a 12-4 type team next year given the rate at which the offense is progressing. Obviously, if someone completely knocks our socks off with an offer, we'd have to at least look at it. At an absolute minimum, it would need to be two first round picks on a team generally thought to be relatively weak, so that there can be the reasonable expectation of two fairly high first rounders, to even think about it.

It's a fascinating question...thanks for bringing it up, lex.

I agree. Trading Champ should be a consideration in the offseason. I'm not saying "to hell with it" and just trade him right away, but if the franchise decides it needs to totally revamp the team, then i think Champ would be the 1st to go. (FOr a 1st round pick,and no less!)
This team is alot closer to complete rebuild than alot of posters would like to admit, and many even think it starts with the HC. Thats a thread of its own, but as for the rebuilding process, i think LEX has a very accurate point in that even though Champ is a very good CB, the position is only a small part of the factor in a defense. Granted, at times he has "shut down" his side of the field, and i love watching him make tackles, but he is only involved as much as the position allows him to be. I love watching him play, but i also notice that even though Champ is on the field, DEN still losses alot of games, and alot of the reason for it is the secondary. I have also noticed alot of teams with really good D-Lines and subpar secondaries winning alot of games lately.
Relax everyone! No topic is off limits OK? Its just a discussion! Great topic and one that will be thrown around in the coming offseason! For crying out loud, the posters here have seen way more controversial topics than this! So all the jump to conclusion homers, relax!
I would love to see just for the sake of discussion from you guys some scenarios that would be adequate possibilities for DEN if they were to trade Champ!
Remember, he's 30 and not getting any younger, he could be a really good trade option with a team like say, the NYJ simply because they NEED a excellent "shut down" corner to stop the NE passing attack, and Mangenuis is getting desperate over there! What if the NYJ were willing to break the bank for Champ? Its just a thought that MANY of the NYJ posters on the net have been throwing around. There are some intriguing possibilities out there that could end up really benefitting DEN.
What if DEN could trade away Champ for a top 10 pick in this years draft?
REMEMBER Its just a thought! Throw it around for a second and think if that would be a "worthy" trade. DEN with 2 high 1st rounders.
*DISCLAIMER*
WE ARE ONLY DISCUSSING TRADE SCENARIOS OK?!?!?!
ITS JUST FOR $H!T AND GIGGLES, SO DONT FREAK OUT, BUT DIGEST THE THREAD AND COME UP WITH SOME OPTIONS TO THE QUESTION.
(SOCAL, THE DISCLAIMER STUFF IS NOT DIRECTED NECCESARILY TOWARDS YOU!HAHA!)

[Northman]

Trading Champ should not be a option. We need to just quit settling for has-beens and could-be's. For instance, a player like Haynesworth. Dont just toss 50 cents at the guy and expect him to sign. Go out there and be serious with it. If your going to throw trade bait out there than use Bly, Lynch, and some other player as a package deal. But you dont give away your best defensive player.

[Broncos_OTM]

I dont know if i would trade champ but if it made our team any better i would do it. saying that though we have a known qaunity in him. over trading him and getting unkown quanity. it could definetly blow up in our faces.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

If the team was in complete rebuilding mode, trading Champ would be the smartest move we could make. That's hardly the case, though. It takes great players to win championships. I wouldn't want to trade one of the indisputably great players in the League.

Exactly. Stupid idea!

[rugbythug]

I think this would be very bad for moral also. When you let go of locker Room leaders in their prime you can quickly disintegrate into the Cardinals or Bengals. Teams with no will to win and everyone is me first.

[lex]

Trading Champ should not be a option. We need to just quit settling for has-beens and could-be's. For instance, a player like Haynesworth. Dont just toss 50 cents at the guy and expect him to sign. Go out there and be serious with it. If your going to throw trade bait out there than use Bly, Lynch, and some other player as a package deal. But you dont give away your best defensive player.

Fair enough, what do you think Bly or Lynch would garner as trade bait. Who else? What about Walker?

BTW, aside from a couple of knuckleheads, there have been several good responses. Thanks guys.

[Northman]

Fair enough, what do you think Bly or Lynch would garner as trade bait. Who else? What about Walker?

BTW, aside from a couple of knuckleheads, there have been several good responses. Thanks guys.


Good question. Depends on how Javon rebounds from his injury. Obviously, Bly is the healthiest of all 3 so im not sure how much we would have to sweeten the deal depending on who we were to go after. But it could be any combination of players but i just think Champ should be our backbone when it comes to the defense.

[socalorado]

Good question. Depends on how Javon rebounds from his injury. Obviously, Bly is the healthiest of all 3 so im not sure how much we would have to sweeten the deal depending on who we were to go after. But it could be any combination of players but i just think Champ should be our backbone when it comes to the defense.

Its really hard to have a CB as the backbone of any defense.
And the closest ive ever seen to this is Champ!
He makes plays all over and is a great tackler in run support.
But i think a "backbone of defense" would be a LB or a DT/DE or a SS.
They are just obviously more involved in every play, regardless of it being a run or pass.
Ever since AWilson went down mid last season, and was playing injured, and then was released, the DEN defense has looked absolutley horrid!
I think that was when this team truly went downhill as the defense goes.
He was the real deal! The on-the-field general who called the plays and also called out the players! Bailey as good a teammate as he is, would play off of this more so than actually BE the leader.
Even JLynch has never really taken over this role which really suprised me. But of course its hard to be a leader when your not on the field...........leading.
Guys like Singletary or Ray Lewis or Ronnie Lott are in the position to lead a team just like DEN had in AWilson. I dont see Bailey really leading the team, nor do i see it in DJ. THis team needs a true MLB that can fill the huge vacum left by the loss of AWilson.
Question: Would moving Champ at 30 to FS be a good move?
He 30 and eventually would most likely go to FS anyways, so is now the time?
DEN has an abundance of CBs, but a shortage of Safeties, so is this the right time?

[Northman]

Its really hard to have a CB as the backbone of any defense.
And the closest ive ever seen to this is Champ!
He makes plays all over and is a great tackler in run support.
But i think a "backbone of defense" would be a LB or a DT/DEor a SS.
They are just obviously more involved in every play, regardless of it being a run or pass.
Ever since AWilson went down mid last season, and was playing injured, and then was released, the DEN defense has looked absolutley horrid!
I think that was when this team truly went downhill as the defense goes.
He was the real deal! The on-the-field general who called the plays and also called out the players! Bailey as good a teammate as he is, would play off of this more so than actually BE the leader.
Even JLynch has never really taken over this role which really suprised me. But of course its hard to be a leader when your not on the field...........leading.
Guys like Singletary or Ray Lewis or Ronnie Lott are in the position to lead a team just like DEN had in AWilson. I dont see Bailey really leading the team, nor do i see it in DJ. THis team needs a true MLB that can fill the huge vacum left by the loss of AWilson.
Question: Would moving Champ at 30 to FS be a good move?
He 30 and eventually would most likely go to FS anyways, so is now the time?
DEN has an abundance of CBs, but a shortage of Safeties, so is this the right time?


In the long run yes but considering we dont really have the goto guy at those positions you mention is a problem. And by letting Champ go without filling those needs right away would be a step back for this particular defense in my opinion. At one point i would of said Wilson would have been that guy but he is no longer with us and Lynch is just too old to be the catalyst. As far as putting Champ at safety either now or in the future i dont know. Ive always liked the idea and wanted to do that years ago with Crockett. But for some players its hard to learn the position and yet with others its no problem at all. Rod Woodson comes to mind. Not too mention Champ would probably have to bulk up a little more to ensure his health.

[NFLBRONCO]

I have to pipe in on this subject :) (I know SoCal is really shocked about me posting on this subject :)).

Well lets look at present team we are pretty young in most spots old and weak in others. As SoCal mentioned Champ has 4 or 5 years of high quality playing let in him.


Denvers biggest weaknesses are 2 DT's 2 OT's OG 1 MLB 2 OLB 1 S imo to make us a legit yearly SB contender in afc. This team needs toughness and better talent across the board.

Champ will want more $$$$ can we afford a bigger contract.

We play in afc we need the Colts out of the way to even get there plus other teams are talented that might make a move next year that will over welm us

Heck we have Champ now and we are 5-7 so it proves even best corner in game won't help if your weak in the trenches and lb S spots.

He has high value that would garner some sweet picks. I think in the long run this team will be farther along across the board in 3 years then we will be with him here.

If we were stronger on the lines I would say no way even consider trading Champ but, since we need lots of help in the trenches we should consider it.


I think Denver should consider trading him while he is still healthy we all saw what happens if you wait to long they get hurt bad and have zero value.

Its a tough decision to make I like Champ alot but, I'm not sure how many if any SB we make in his prime. Right now we have alot of work to do.

I doubt Denver would do it anyways but, it was just my 2 cents.

[Garcia Bronco]

If we're looking at all the factors...you keep Champ Bailey

[socalorado]

If we're looking at all the factors...you keep Champ Bailey

With 29,000 posts, i would hope yuove posted better than this! Cmon, Man give us some reasons and some scenarios that would work! Cmon!
Wg=hat are all the factors your talking about. Talk to us garcia bronco

[mattob14]

I just don't see any way you can consider trading someone like Champ Bailey. This isn't the NBA, where stars get moved all the time for salary reasons. Trading Bailey would signal a complete rebuilding effort and I just don't think this team is to that point. Honestly, with the parity in the NFL, I believe we could go 11-5 or 12-4 next year with just a couple of key moves and a healthy season.

NFLBRONCO listed 9 positions he felt need to be filled before this team is a legit Super Bowl contender. Personally, I tend to think it's closer to 4 or 5 (assuming these are QUALITY players, not bargain plug-ins). I can't argue with the positions listed, but if we add 4 or 5 quality players to this team, they will elevate the play of everyone around them. We don't need 3 Pro Bowl linebackers to have an effective unit. If we start with Williams in FA, along with a LB in the draft or FA that is capable of tackling, the defense will be much improved. Offensively, I think we're an OL or two away from having a very good, rounded unit (add a WR to that if Walker has more problems with his knee).

Besides, to trade Champ, I really think we'd have to get 2 very high picks (and hit on both of them) to see any real benefit. Trading him for one pick creates a gaping hole in the secondary, which would probably become one of the worst in the league. We'd need to draft a corner to fill the void, which would be counter-productive. Even picking up 2 top-10 picks, we'd have to use one of our 1sts this year at CB. If we didn't get two impact players with those picks, it'd be one of those trades you regret for years.

[theAPAOps5]

I totally agree with Slap you trade away your best talent to make your team as whole grow with a greater sum of building blocks. Denver has building blocks. Yes they need to add some more but the drafts have been getting better and so its viable that this team will morph into an elite team again.

So no, as it stands at this moment you do not even consider trading Champ Bailey.

[Requiem]

I'd trade Champ Bailey for 10 first-rounders.

[-Slap-]

Another reason you don't really want to lose the guy is that he should remain an elite to very good player for several more years. Just like Rod Woodson and Aeneas Williams, Champ will be able to move to safety one day and continue to play at an extremely high level.

[MechanicalBull]

If we get any type of decent DL instead of retread after retread then these QBs wouldn't have all time to throw and our DBs won't look as bad.

[mattob14]

I'd trade Champ Bailey for 10 first-rounders.

Nah, it'd take at least 11. :thumbsup:

[24champ]

If we trade Champ Bailey this offseason...that will be the end of my support for this franchise.

[24champ]

I have to pipe in on this subject :) (I know SoCal is really shocked about me posting on this subject :)).

Well lets look at present team we are pretty young in most spots old and weak in others. As SoCal mentioned Champ has 4 or 5 years of high quality playing let in him.


Denvers biggest weaknesses are 2 DT's 2 OT's OG 1 MLB 2 OLB 1 S imo to make us a legit yearly SB contender in afc. This team needs toughness and better talent across the board.


Champ will want more $$$$ can we afford a bigger contract.

We play in afc we need the Colts out of the way to even get there plus other teams are talented that might make a move next year that will over welm us

Heck we have Champ now and we are 5-7 so it proves even best corner in game won't help if your weak in the trenches and lb S spots.

He has high value that would garner some sweet picks. I think in the long run this team will be farther along across the board in 3 years then we will be with him here.

If we were stronger on the lines I would say no way even consider trading Champ but, since we need lots of help in the trenches we should consider it.


I think Denver should consider trading him while he is still healthy we all saw what happens if you wait to long they get hurt bad and have zero value.

Its a tough decision to make I like Champ alot but, I'm not sure how many if any SB we make in his prime. Right now we have alot of work to do.

I doubt Denver would do it anyways but, it was just my 2 cents.

I don't know why all this trading Champ garbage is being strewn about. The guy has single handily got us to the AFCCG in 2005, he is the type of Corner that win games for you, how many corners other than Champ have that kind of impact? My guess is none. What happens if the draft picks don't pan out?

You don't trade away franchise players and no amount of draft picks is going make it up. I particularly loved this gem-

Heck we have Champ now and we are 5-7 so it proves even best corner in game won't help if your weak in the trenches and lb S spots.


What it proves, is that you improve in all those other areas ALONG with Champ Bailey. Trade Champ Bailey and you have a very crappy defense. Not to mention if we face the Colts we will have to deal with a Harrison AND Wayne.

Sorry Socal, I know you love draft picks and all but no amount of draft picks is going to replace Champ Bailey and IT WILL set this franchise back. Just isn't to be considered under any circumstances, just like trading Elway was not to be considered in the pre-super bowl wins era.

[24champ]

With 29,000 posts, i would hope yuove posted better than this! Cmon, Man give us some reasons and some scenarios that would work! Cmon!
Wg=hat are all the factors your talking about. Talk to us garcia bronco

Why? So he can cook up even more retarded ideas like say trading...Cutler?::)

Jesus Christ some of you make me sick.

[24champ]

Wow...what a dumbass.

Excellent analysis.

[nickademus]

The only problem I have with this is that there isnt anyone to take his spot. So we are gonna trade him for a player and a first rounder? One of these guys has to play cb and then esentially your are dumping an all world CB for a crap shoot and a player to be named later and which ever one plays corner will not even be close to champ. is the upgrade at one possition worh the downgrade at another? now if champ came looking for more cash this off season the I might entertain the idea but as of right now I plan on watchin 24 destroy people next year when we actually have a pass rush.

[lex]

I don't know why all this trading Champ garbage is being strewn about. The guy has single handily got us to the AFCCG in 2005, he is the type of Corner that win games for you, how many corners other than Champ have that kind of impact? My guess is none. What happens if the draft picks don't pan out?
Were 5-7 with Champ Bailey this year. If the draft picks dont pan out, it stands to reason we'll also be 5-7 without Champ Bailey since a lot of it hinges on the DL.

You don't trade away franchise players and no amount of draft picks is going make it up. I particularly loved this gem-

Tell that to Jimmy Johnson.



What it proves, is that you improve in all those other areas ALONG with Champ Bailey. Trade Champ Bailey and you have a very crappy defense. Not to mention if we face the Colts we will have to deal with a Harrison AND Wayne.
Honestly, if we could improve our offensive line and/or defensive line by this move, its something you still have to consider. When we played Indy in Sept. our problems were not punching it in inside the 10 (which augmenting the offensive line would help) and also our front 7 not getting it done on defense. But nevermind Indy. We should be more concerned about our division first and having a better OLine and DLine would help us more here. Champ is a great player but as I said at the outset, it begins upfront and that makes someone like him the last piece of the puzzle, not the first piece.


Sorry Socal, I know you love draft picks and all but no amount of draft picks is going to replace Champ Bailey and IT WILL set this franchise back. Just isn't to be considered under any circumstances, just like trading Elway was not to be considered in the pre-super bowl wins era.
No one is talking about replacing Champ Bailey. It was acknowledged by me at the outset that he is probably an all time top 3 CB and were 5-7. The idea would be not to replace someone who is irreplaceable but to improve the team overall.

I know youre a big Champ Bailey fan. Its obvious by your screen name. We all like Champ. But I think your admiration of Champ is distorting your perspective when it comes to acknowledging certain truths as far as whether its more important to be strong in other areas. In our SB years we had no one close to Champ at CB but we definitely had a better offensive line and better front 7 on defense (and better safeties too). We had two very good corners but neither were close to Champs level. Someone like Champ is neutralized when you dont win the LOS.

Also, know this Im not saying that we just give Champ away but if it can help our team its something to consider. I think solid arguments have been made on both sides in this discussion but the best arguments for keeping Champ were made by SoCalBronco.

[Crushaholic]

IF Denver expects to get value out of Champ, it will be based on reputation. It certainly won't be based on his play this year. It's not entirely his fault, due to the fact that he has been trying to play CB, help out on safety, and play some LB. It's no wonder he can't play at a high level if he has multiple assignments...

[socalorado]

IF Denver expects to get value out of Champ, it will be based on reputation. It certainly won't be based on his play this year. It's not entirely his fault, due to the fact that he has been trying to play CB, help out on safety, and play some LB. It's no wonder he can't play at a high level if he has multiple assignments...

No one here is blaming Champ or saying anything is his fault.
All of us here have a healthy respect for Champ, some a little homerish, but none the less its unanimous.
But the fact that with Champ this team needs major work on the defensive front, its going to be 6 players from being "elite" as some have stated!

Anyone who says this teams defense is just a few players away just watch a game. This was noticed by many observers of the game in the preseason against DAL. Outclassed in all phases of the game and it was obvious.
Since then, its basically been downhill.
No team in the NFL "gives away" games like DEN.
Sorry injuries like Ekuban and Lynch dont count. Only Lynch was a intregal part of the defense and he should of had a replacement. He is over the hill and any non-homer, honest fan knows this!
I'm not bagging on these guys but major revamping on the d-line still needs to take place as well as depth.
Just because there is a injured, high profile, overhyped situational 3rd down pass rushing rookie DE recovering from his multiple injuries that he sustained throughout the preseason as well as the offseason doesnt mean theres depth behind Dumerville at DE.
THis teams needs just on defense
2 DTs (Mthomas has been the best player drafted but he needs 2 guys to go with him)
SS ( i like Abdullah, but wheres the depth?)
FS ( foxworth!?!? LOL!!! Jeez, its no wonder this team gets steamrolled!)
WILL ( move DJ back and Webster to STs)
MLB ( I love the desperate attempt to try and make like DJ is actually good at MLB. He is a adequate back up at MLB and nothing more)
SLB ( "fools"GOLD needs to go BYE BYE or this team suffers)
Theres 6 legitimate spots that need desperate help! BAD! REAL BAD!
Any one want to refute this, just watch a game!
So, i can see why theres a "trade Champ thread"
I'm not saying just trade the guy cause the team sucks, but if this team is going to make wholesale changes and totally revamp the defense, then i think he gets traded simply because he brings in the most value to DEN.
Sotra the "trump" card for the team.

[Northman]

You know, im just going to throw this out to the people who think trading Champ is a good choice. And im not throwing it out there to be a dick or assine so i dont want you guys to jump down my throat. But to me Champ is the same as John Elway in terms of playmaking ability. Now, for you guys clamoring to trade Champ. Were you saying these same things while John was in his prime? Could you imagine all the picks and players we could have gotten for John during his prime? The thing is, when you have a real SPECIAL player you do what you can to keep him and build around him. From 95'-99' that is what Denver did to help the team win a Super Bowl. They surrounded their best player with a good supporting cast and it paid off.

At the end of the day because of poor drafting and FA signings from 99' on we have dug ourselves into a hole. And although we have had a couple of good years during that time we still have played around with the lineups too much. Now, as Slap pointed out. If your going to rebuild and i dont mean just revamp but rebuild than you can trade Champ. But keep in mind you wont see the playoffs or even a Super Bowl for at least 4-5 years down the road. Rebuilding means you are wiping the slate clean and working your way back up which includes making wiser draft choices.

Ultimately, i think this team is only a couple of years away from the Super Bowl. That would give adequate time for the young players to progress and allow us to make smarter moves in the draft and Free Agency. But everyone is too much in a rush to win this year or next. And by scrapping Bailey and whoever else is not the right move right now. Again, smarter decisions will help this team, not switching 20 players in and out every year.

[mattob14]

You know, im just going to throw this out to the people who think trading Champ is a good choice. And im not throwing it out there to be a dick or assine so i dont want you guys to jump down my throat. But to me Champ is the same as John Elway in terms of playmaking ability. Now, for you guys clamoring to trade Champ. Were you saying these same things while John was in his prime? Could you imagine all the picks and players we could have gotten for John during his prime? The thing is, when you have a real SPECIAL player you do what you can to keep him and build around him. From 95'-99' that is what Denver did to help the team win a Super Bowl. They surrounded their best player with a good supporting cast and it paid off.

At the end of the day because of poor drafting and FA signings from 99' on we have dug ourselves into a hole. And although we have had a couple of good years during that time we still have played around with the lineups too much. Now, as Slap pointed out. If your going to rebuild and i dont mean just revamp but rebuild than you can trade Champ. But keep in mind you wont see the playoffs or even a Super Bowl for at least 4-5 years down the road. Rebuilding means you are wiping the slate clean and working your way back up which includes making wiser draft choices.

Ultimately, i think this team is only a couple of years away from the Super Bowl. That would give adequate time for the young players to progress and allow us to make smarter moves in the draft and Free Agency. But everyone is too much in a rush to win this year or next. And by scrapping Bailey and whoever else is not the right move right now. Again, smarter decisions will help this team, not switching 20 players in and out every year.

Very good post. People are hitting the panic button over this season, but we're about 2 or 3 plays away from being 7-5 and tied for the Division lead. There's so much youth on this team at key positions, we just need to be patient for a year or two. Besides, we need the veterans like Champ to help lead those youngsters to greatness. Take advantage of the opportunity to add some top talent to the team through the draft this year and the Broncos will surprise A LOT of people next season.

[socalorado]

Very good post. People are hitting the panic button over this season, but we're about 2 or 3 plays away from being 7-5 and tied for the Division lead. There's so much youth on this team at key positions, we just need to be patient for a year or two. Besides, we need the veterans like Champ to help lead those youngsters to greatness. Take advantage of the opportunity to add some top talent to the team through the draft this year and the Broncos will surprise A LOT of people next season.

Anubis good post.
No one here is hitting the panic button L!OL!
Were just discussing the possibilty.

As for your assessment of the players, i dont think there are alot of young talented players on defense. I really only see 3. Not counting DJ.

As for the comparison to Elway, Ah no i dont think they are comparable.
JElway was a QB! He ran the offense and was the general.
Champ is a CB, and as much as i and others appreciate his play, hes not the leader on defense and never has been.
i think LEX has a very accurate point in that even though Champ is a very good CB, the position is only a small part of the factor in a defense. Granted, at times he has "shut down" his side of the field, and i love watching him make tackles, but he is only involved as much as the position allows him to be. I love watching him play, but i also notice that even though Champ is on the field, DEN still losses alot of games, and alot of the reason for it is the secondary. I have also noticed alot of teams with really good D-Lines and subpar secondaries winning alot of games lately.
CB is not a comparable position in importace to QB! CMON!
Maybe MLB, but not CB.

[Northman]

Anubis good post.
No one here is hitting the panic button L!OL!
Were just discussing the possibilty.

As for your assessment of the players, i dont think there are alot of young talented players on defense. I really only see 3. Not counting DJ.

As for the comparison to Elway, Ah no i dont think they are comparable.
JElway was a QB! He ran the offense and was the general.
Champ is a CB, and as much as i and others appreciate his play, hes not the leader on defense and never has been.
i think LEX has a very accurate point in that even though Champ is a very good CB, the position is only a small part of the factor in a defense. Granted, at times he has "shut down" his side of the field, and i love watching him make tackles, but he is only involved as much as the position allows him to be. I love watching him play, but i also notice that even though Champ is on the field, DEN still losses alot of games, and alot of the reason for it is the secondary. I have also noticed alot of teams with really good D-Lines and subpar secondaries winning alot of games lately.
CB is not a comparable position in importace to QB! CMON!
Maybe MLB, but not CB.


Not true my friend. Think about it for a minute. Yes, Qb is probably the most important position on any football team. But.. CB shares a lot of responsibility especially if your left on a island all your own. Champ gets beat at times, so did John. Now, remember some of the great plays that Champ made. We didnt have a great Dline during those times or even now. Now imagine if he had a great Dline how much better he would be? Just like John needed a great RB and Oline to get him over the top the same could be said for Champ.

If Champ had even a hint of the type of talent on the Dline some of these other teams had he would be going to the pro bowl every year. Wait.... he is already doing that bad example. But you get my drift. Keep in mind some of the good CB's you've seen in the past. Madison and Surtain both had a great supporting cast which enabled to be one of the great CB duos in Dolphin history. At the end of the day who can you say is the best defender we have? Lynch? No way. Bly? Definitely not. There is only one choice here. You've said it yourself the guy is in on tackles a LOT and when he is at his best he makes the plays necessary.

But a very poor surrounding cast can make any player look less special. I like the young guys we have and i think they will do well but they need time to progress. I think we just really need to focus this next year or so on Oline, Dline, and LB. Thats really it. But those should be additions through the draft and Free Agency. Not meant to replace everyone on the team. Chemistry is very important to any successful franchise. Even though the Patriots (i know, everyone hates them) have lost and added players their core group of stars are kept together.

[NFLBRONCO]

Well I will throw this out for discussion

How many teams win a SB or are yearly SB contenders because they have best corners. I'm not nitpicking anyone because of your view just asking is all.

[NFLBRONCO]

Do not forget other point we have been upgrading this D since 99 (9 yrs) and we still need plenty of help. So to assume we can upgrade this unit in 2 yrs is unlikely without a blockbuster moves and right choices. I love Bailey like everyone does but, who gives a crap if we have a talented player and still at 8-8 9-7 or 10-6 losing in round 1 of playoffs. I know we were in AFC Championship so what we got reemed overpowered in that game even with a great CB. Then you must factor 1 or 2 years time that a guy might need to step up so that 4 or 5 yr window is shrinking fast.

[24champ]

Well I will throw this out for discussion

How many teams win a SB or are yearly SB contenders because they have best corners. I'm not nitpicking anyone because of your view just asking is all.

Patriots.

Yeah Deion Sanders didn't win any Super Bowls did he?::)

[24champ]

You know, im just going to throw this out to the people who think trading Champ is a good choice. And im not throwing it out there to be a dick or assine so i dont want you guys to jump down my throat. But to me Champ is the same as John Elway in terms of playmaking ability. Now, for you guys clamoring to trade Champ. Were you saying these same things while John was in his prime? Could you imagine all the picks and players we could have gotten for John during his prime? The thing is, when you have a real SPECIAL player you do what you can to keep him and build around him. From 95'-99' that is what Denver did to help the team win a Super Bowl. They surrounded their best player with a good supporting cast and it paid off.

At the end of the day because of poor drafting and FA signings from 99' on we have dug ourselves into a hole. And although we have had a couple of good years during that time we still have played around with the lineups too much. Now, as Slap pointed out. If your going to rebuild and i dont mean just revamp but rebuild than you can trade Champ. But keep in mind you wont see the playoffs or even a Super Bowl for at least 4-5 years down the road. Rebuilding means you are wiping the slate clean and working your way back up which includes making wiser draft choices.

Ultimately, i think this team is only a couple of years away from the Super Bowl. That would give adequate time for the young players to progress and allow us to make smarter moves in the draft and Free Agency. But everyone is too much in a rush to win this year or next. And by scrapping Bailey and whoever else is not the right move right now. Again, smarter decisions will help this team, not switching 20 players in and out every year.

Excellent post.

[NFLBRONCO]

Patriots.

Yeah Deion Sanders didn't win any Super Bowls did he?::)

My point is Deion wouldn't get this team to SB. I still say Pats won SB's because of Shady Brady not corners alone.

[NFLBRONCO]

You know, im just going to throw this out to the people who think trading Champ is a good choice. And im not throwing it out there to be a dick or assine so i dont want you guys to jump down my throat. But to me Champ is the same as John Elway in terms of playmaking ability. Now, for you guys clamoring to trade Champ. Were you saying these same things while John was in his prime? Could you imagine all the picks and players we could have gotten for John during his prime? The thing is, when you have a real SPECIAL player you do what you can to keep him and build around him. From 95'-99' that is what Denver did to help the team win a Super Bowl. They surrounded their best player with a good supporting cast and it paid off.

At the end of the day because of poor drafting and FA signings from 99' on we have dug ourselves into a hole. And although we have had a couple of good years during that time we still have played around with the lineups too much. Now, as Slap pointed out. If your going to rebuild and i dont mean just revamp but rebuild than you can trade Champ. But keep in mind you wont see the playoffs or even a Super Bowl for at least 4-5 years down the road. Rebuilding means you are wiping the slate clean and working your way back up which includes making wiser draft choices.

Ultimately, i think this team is only a couple of years away from the Super Bowl. That would give adequate time for the young players to progress and allow us to make smarter moves in the draft and Free Agency. But everyone is too much in a rush to win this year or next. And by scrapping Bailey and whoever else is not the right move right now. Again, smarter decisions will help this team, not switching 20 players in and out every year.

You made excellent points and I hope your right.

If you factor in

Talent in AFC (won't be easy to SB right now)(Colts always beat us)
Present shape of this team
Lack of home field advantage
Cutler really only has 1 yr of game expierience
Development time
Coaching
injury bug
It might take 5 yrs to get solid who knows.

[24champ]

Were 5-7 with Champ Bailey this year. If the draft picks dont pan out, it stands to reason we'll also be 5-7 without Champ Bailey since a lot of it hinges on the DL.


Or we will be 1-11 without Champ Bailey and meanwhile Champ will be in the HOF under another team.

Tell that to Jimmy Johnson.

Yeah what's he doing these days? Still Coaching by any chance? ::)

Honestly, if we could improve our offensive line and/or defensive line by this move, its something you still have to consider. When we played Indy in Sept. our problems were not punching it in inside the 10 (which augmenting the offensive line would help) and also our front 7 not getting it done on defense. But nevermind Indy. We should be more concerned about our division first and having a better OLine and DLine would help us more here. Champ is a great player but as I said at the outset, it begins upfront and that makes someone like him the last piece of the puzzle, not the first piece.

He almost SINGLE-HANDILY got us to the freaking Super Bowl, he was the biggest piece. We can retool the lines along with having the best corner in the ****ing game.

No one is talking about replacing Champ Bailey.

Good because no one will and this team will be ****ed if they tried to.

But I think your admiration of Champ is distorting your perspective when it comes to acknowledging certain truths as far as whether its more important to be strong in other areas. In our SB years we had no one close to Champ at CB but we definitely had a better offensive line and better front 7 on defense (and better safeties too). We had two very good corners but neither were close to Champs level. Someone like Champ is neutralized when you dont win the LOS.

I think your dumbassery is distorting your perspective but thats just my opinion. Answer me this, would you trade John Elway in 94-95?

[24champ]

My point is Deion wouldn't get this team to SB. I still say Pats won SB's because of Shady Brady not corners alone.
That wasn't your point, your point was that teams don't win super bowls with great corners and that is COMPLETELY FALSE. Deion Sanders won multiple Super Bowls, Asante Samuel won with the Patriots, as did Law. Brady didn't beat Peyton Manning, the defense did. Jack Tatum and Darrell Green got their teams a super bowl win.


I think you have a bias against CB and completely underestimate their value. Tell me how the team was doing before Champ Bailey showed up in Denver? How did Denver beat the Patriots in the playoffs in 05?

[NFLBRONCO]

That wasn't your point, your point was that teams don't win super bowls with great corners and that is COMPLETELY FALSE. Deion Sanders won multiple Super Bowls, Asante Samuel won with the Patriots, as did Law. Brady didn't beat Peyton Manning, the defense did. Jack Tatum and Darrell Green got their teams a super bowl win.


I think you have a bias against CB and completely underestimate their value. Tell me how the team was doing before Champ Bailey showed up in Denver? How did Denver beat the Patriots in the playoffs in 05?

I see your point and yeah you caught me on those examples. I understand the value of CB's I really do. I'm trying to find ways to hopefully bolster this team faster and Bailey has best value. We have 1 playoff win since SB and your right without Bailey we'd have none. I think our decline came because of Pitt game they exposed us and dominated us. Neither of us have a crystal ball what will happen in next 4 season's and how many SB's we are in or not.
Right now although not impossible I think its a tall order to expect any SB's til we get tougher and play consistant week in week out and win at home again more often. This team is soft period and lots of work is needed regardless of our views on this subject. Thanks for this debate its fun.

[socalorado]

I see your point and yeah you caught me on those examples. I understand the value of CB's I really do. I'm trying to find ways to hopefully bolster this team faster and Bailey has best value. We have 1 playoff win since SB and your right without Bailey we'd have none. I think our decline came because of Pitt game they exposed us and dominated us. Neither of us have a crystal ball what will happen in next 4 season's and how many SB's we are in or not.
Right now although not impossible I think its a tall order to expect any SB's til we get tougher and play consistant week in week out and win at home again more often. This team is soft period and lots of work is needed regardless of our views on this subject. Thanks for this debate its fun.

He didnt make any point with Deon! DEON played on hall of fame teams that were great from top to bottom. he's just scared cause for some reason he thinks i make the front office decisions in DEN and he will have to change his avatar name if i trade Champ L!LOL!!
24 champ,
Champ did not single handedly get DEN to the AFCCG either. Ive never heard that here and its ludicrious to say it!
Granted, he played fantastic though. Dont get me wrong, i love watching him play, but i think your getting a little too steamed dude. Relax, no one here is making a trade tommorow ok? Also, try not to call people vulgar names here. Its just a discussion, maybe you should be put down for a nap and then you can come back and play nice with everyone?

[lex]

That wasn't your point, your point was that teams don't win super bowls with great corners and that is COMPLETELY FALSE. Deion Sanders won multiple Super Bowls, Asante Samuel won with the Patriots, as did Law. Brady didn't beat Peyton Manning, the defense did. Jack Tatum and Darrell Green got their teams a super bowl win.


I think you have a bias against CB and completely underestimate their value. Tell me how the team was doing before Champ Bailey showed up in Denver? How did Denver beat the Patriots in the playoffs in 05?

No, the point has already been made that the value of the CB is increased when the other pieces are in place. They are one of the last pieces of the puzzle. Because, once again, if you cant stop the run, teams dont even need to pass and often wont and if you cant generate a pass rush, the CBs become less and less of a factor. And in that NE game, Coyer actually had a good gameplan as far as pressuring Brady. The blitzing pressured Brady into some bad throws and Champ was able to do his thing. If Brady would have had all day to throw, its likely a different story. Everyone here acknowledges Champ is great but he is a CB and he doesnt pressure the CB...hell make a nice play if a QB makes a bad throw but if a good QB has all day to throw, having Champ doesnt really help...even if they dont throw at Champ, theyd pick on the #2 and 3 CBs. When we won SBs we had a good offensive and devensive lines and very good CBs but neither Gordon nor Crockett were anywhere close to Bailey. But both Crockett and Gordon were better than any #2 weve had since 1999.

[mattob14]

As for your assessment of the players, i dont think there are alot of young talented players on defense. I really only see 3. Not counting DJ.

Well, in Moss, Thomas, Crowder and Dumerville, we have four on the D-Line alone. DJ is still a talented young LB and I'd throw Abullah in there as well. He may never be an All-Pro, but he's physical, is a solid tackler and has the range to actually provide over-the-top help to the corners. I'm happy with him manning a starting spot. You could also throw guys like Paymah and Foxworth in there as well (although I don't think Foxworth has much more room to improve). That's 6-8 players in my eyes, better than a lot of teams have.

[mattob14]

Do not forget other point we have been upgrading this D since 99 (9 yrs) and we still need plenty of help. So to assume we can upgrade this unit in 2 yrs is unlikely without a blockbuster moves and right choices. I love Bailey like everyone does but, who gives a crap if we have a talented player and still at 8-8 9-7 or 10-6 losing in round 1 of playoffs. I know we were in AFC Championship so what we got reemed overpowered in that game even with a great CB. Then you must factor 1 or 2 years time that a guy might need to step up so that 4 or 5 yr window is shrinking fast.

NFLBRONCO, I'm wondering where you would invest those draft picks obtained for Bailey. IMO, we're pretty solid along the DL, we just need to let the players we have develop. There's a big need for one starting DT, but Corey Williams would be a better option than anyone we would draft anyway. At LB, it's looking like DJ might move back to WILL next year and if we add a rookie such as Beau Bell to the mix, LB suddenly looks fairly solid. Sure we could use a SAM, but with more talent around him, Nate Webster would be sufficient. Behind that, our corners are set (unless we trade Bailey) and Abdullah looks solid at one safety spot. If Lynch is back, the other spot won't be too bad. I don't see where we would even fit multiple top-10 picks, without bumping out some of our other young players.

[lex]

NFLBRONCO, I'm wondering where you would invest those draft picks obtained for Bailey. IMO, we're pretty solid along the DL, we just need to let the players we have develop. There's a big need for one starting DT, but Corey Williams would be a better option than anyone we would draft anyway. At LB, it's looking like DJ might move back to WILL next year and if we add a rookie such as Beau Bell to the mix, LB suddenly looks fairly solid. Sure we could use a SAM, but with more talent around him, Nate Webster would be sufficient. Behind that, our corners are set (unless we trade Bailey) and Abdullah looks solid at one safety spot. If Lynch is back, the other spot won't be too bad. I don't see where we would even fit multiple top-10 picks, without bumping out some of our other young players.

Trading Champ would give us the flexibility to really improve our Tackle situation or even S and even possibly McFadden depending on what the pick would be. Then there area also several LBs too but thats a reason to wait as far as Im concerned. If we were to trade Champ, Id want to definitely get Otah in the 1st though. Id also draft Tryon later as he is slotted to go in the mid rounds. A darkhorse CB I really want to draft that could have enormous potential (but who is someone I want as a returner) is Brian Witherspoon. He runs a 4.22 forty. He, Chris Johnson and Desean Jackson are probably the 3 fastest players in the draft. Witherspoon is slotted for the 7th but after the combine you might see him move up a round or two. Still, we need a returner and his speed alone makes him very attractive in that regard and if he develops as a corner its an even bigger bonus.

[Northman]

Trading Champ would give us the flexibility to really improve our Tackle situation or even S and even possibly McFadden depending on what the pick would be. Then there area also several LBs too but thats a reason to wait as far as Im concerned. If we were to trade Champ, Id want to definitely get Otah in the 1st though. Id also draft Tryon later as he is slotted to go in the mid rounds. A darkhorse CB I really want to draft that could have enormous potential (but who is someone I want as a returner) is Brian Witherspoon. He runs a 4.22 forty. He, Chris Johnson and Desean Jackson are probably the 3 fastest players in the draft. Witherspoon is slotted for the 7th but after the combine you might see him move up a round or two. Still, we need a returner and his speed alone makes him very attractive in that regard and if he develops as a corner its an even bigger bonus.


These are all nice players but to do this would require going with the 5 year plan. If we are totally rebuilding than by all means do it. Remember, to grab all these youngsters means giving them time to progress as athletes. If we are playing for a Title in the next couple of years its not the move to make. And judging by what the Organization heads are saying is that they are playing for a Championship NOW.

[lex]

These are all nice players but to do this would require going with the 5 year plan. If we are totally rebuilding than by all means do it. Remember, to grab all these youngsters means giving them time to progress as athletes. If we are playing for a Title in the next couple of years its not the move to make. And judging by what the Organization heads are saying is that they are playing for a Championship NOW.

Until we get two tackles who are better than what we have, we're not going anywhere. Same with a few other positions. We need to get better at crucial positions like the offensive line and Im not banking on Ryan Harris anymore. We really cant afford it. That guy has Mark Prior written all over him. We need to be more concerned about our 2nd and 3rd best CBs as well as our front 7. And I think it will take longer if we dont go after offensive linemen this year since that is our biggest need. We cant continue relying on old timers and practice squad all stars like Pears.

[Northman]

Until we get two tackles who are better than what we have, we're not going anywhere. Same with a few other positions. We need to get better at crucial positions like the offensive line and Im not banking on Ryan Harris anymore. We really cant afford it. That guy has Mark Prior written all over him. We need to be more concerned about our 2nd and 3rd best CBs as well as our front 7. And I think it will take longer if we dont go after offensive linemen this year since that is our biggest need. We cant continue relying on old timers and practice squad all stars like Pears.


Very true. Thats why you make smarter decisions through the draft and Free Agency. There's no need to trade away your best players to just gain young ones. If we make smarter decisions in those areas i think we will be just fine without trading away our productive guys. If anything, you trade away guys who arent productive or old. But i see what your saying.

[mattob14]

Trading Champ would give us the flexibility to really improve our Tackle situation or even S and even possibly McFadden depending on what the pick would be. Then there area also several LBs too but thats a reason to wait as far as Im concerned. If we were to trade Champ, Id want to definitely get Otah in the 1st though. Id also draft Tryon later as he is slotted to go in the mid rounds. A darkhorse CB I really want to draft that could have enormous potential (but who is someone I want as a returner) is Brian Witherspoon. He runs a 4.22 forty. He, Chris Johnson and Desean Jackson are probably the 3 fastest players in the draft. Witherspoon is slotted for the 7th but after the combine you might see him move up a round or two. Still, we need a returner and his speed alone makes him very attractive in that regard and if he develops as a corner its an even bigger bonus.

OK, fair enough. I just don't see how we can't get Otah and these mid-rounders without trading Champ. And the argument that we should build from the front 7 back doesn't hold much water when you advocate taking a Safety with one of the picks.

To be honest lex, I do understand what you're advocating and if you look at my posting history, you'll see I'm as big a draft fan as anyone. In many situations I agree with adding youth and letting them grow, but Champ is one of those special players that's just too tough to replace, especially in the NFL. In baseball, you'd get a package of 4 top major-league ready prospects for him and you legimately can fill several holes. In the NFL, teams value draft picks so highly that you get two or three draft picks, and we don't even know where those future picks may land.

[lex]

OK, fair enough. I just don't see how we can't get Otah and these mid-rounders without trading Champ. And the argument that we should build from the front 7 back doesn't hold much water when you advocate taking a Safety with one of the picks.

To be honest lex, I do understand what you're advocating and if you look at my posting history, you'll see I'm as big a draft fan as anyone. In many situations I agree with adding youth and letting them grow, but Champ is one of those special players that's just too tough to replace, especially in the NFL. In baseball, you'd get a package of 4 top major-league ready prospects for him and you legimately can fill several holes. In the NFL, teams value draft picks so highly that you get two or three draft picks, and we don't even know where those future picks may land.

LT O. Cousins, UTEP
OL J. Zuttah, Rutgers

both of these guys are slotted to be there in the mid rounds. Id like to draft both of them and have Cousins be LT and Otah be RT and move Kuper to RG as BPC has advocated. We can draft them with our own picks. Im also for taking Sp. Larsen and/or Brian Kehl later. And I mentioned S as something to look at if there was a 3rd involved. At this point though, Im in favor of signing Gibril Wilson, a DT and perhaps a LB in FA. When you look at this years draft class for CBs, its really weak and so that puts us in the most advantageous position to do something like this...especially when you add the fact that a lot of teams with bad records are AFC East teams and they need a good CB to counter Randy Moss. The longer you wait though, the less value Champ would have plus the CB crop may improve diminishing his value in a trade.

Again, Im not saying we should do it. Obviously, it would take a lot for me to want to pull the trigger. I wonder what he would get us in trade? A high first maybe with NYJ, or NE (who need to replace a CB in Samuel and wouldnt want the best CB on the other side of their prized WR). Champ is getting older but he probably has 4 or 5 good years left and with Champ the bar is high so that could mean he will be great for the next 5 years...plus he tackles so well, he can be moved to S. Im not sure what he would get but if its not enough, Id be glad to keep him. Honestly, I can see Champ playing 8 or 9 more very good years whether its S or CB. I wonder if other teams see this too?

[mattob14]

LT O. Cousins, UTEP
OL J. Zuttah, Rutgers

both of these guys are slotted to be there in the mid rounds. Id like to draft both of them and have Cousins be LT and Otah be RT and move Kuper to RG as BPC has advocated. We can draft them with our own picks. Im also for taking Sp. Larsen and/or Brian Kehl later.

Works for me. That's exactly the type of draft I've been advocating: OT early, another Oline in the middle rounds and use the remaining picks on BPA among a number of positions- S, LB, DT, WR, RB. If we could sign someone like Williams to make an impact on the Dline, we'd fill most of our holes in one offseason, without trading any of our major contibutors (someone like Foxworth could be moved in the right deal).

[24champ]

I see your point and yeah you caught me on those examples. I understand the value of CB's I really do.

Um no you don't. We traded for Champ because we realized we had to have a stud corner to shut down the Harrison's of this league. Get rid of Champ and you are getting rid of the best tackler and man to man player in the league. This guy had in my opinion some Defensive Player of the Year seasons already in Denver. It would also mean that the defense would have to cover more of the field since Champ Bailey would not be there to shut down half the field. Draft picks are a big gamble and most of these draftees in the trenches that you speak of won't be ready to produce until their 3rd year in our systems. I think we have the ends down with Moss, Crowder, Dumervil. Inside we have Thomas and Mckinely. These guys will round out their game in due time. Now if you want to draft multiple lineman and expect them to produce right away, then your going to have to ditch the scheme we have in place and the coaches aren't going to do that.

I'm trying to find ways to hopefully bolster this team faster and Bailey has best value.

Bailey doesn't have any value with this FO, tell you why because he is un-tradeable. Your going to have to look at other alternatives to bolster the team WITH Bailey on the team. Like trading down to get more picks, you don't have to trade Champ to get more picks. We had a rough year, but it doesn't mean that you have to trade your best player and start from scratch. Like in 1994-95 we had a bad year and we didn't trade John Elway and what do you know, 3 years down the road we get a Super Bowl.


I think our decline came because of Pitt game they exposed us and dominated us. Neither of us have a crystal ball what will happen in next 4 season's and how many SB's we are in or not.
Right now although not impossible I think its a tall order to expect any SB's til we get tougher and play consistant week in week out and win at home again more often. This team is soft period and lots of work is needed regardless of our views on this subject.

This team has just went over a massive overhaul of the roster and also the schemes on defense changed big time, it's going to take a little bit to get the team feeling comfortable about their teammates and knowing what is required of them in the scheme. We lost a lot of starters on the offensive line, wide recievers were banged up all year. Cutler is in his first full year starting and is getting better every game.

What your advocating another massive overhaul of the team and this time it is with younger players via the draft. That won't do any good for the franchise because judging by Mike Shanahan and Pat Bowlen philosophy of WIN NOW, they aren't going to all of a sudden dump players for draft picks. It isn't what they have done over the years and I doubt they will begin to change their philosophy because of one bad year.

[24champ]

He didnt make any point with Deon! DEON played on hall of fame teams that were great from top to bottom.
By the way it's spelled Deion...but yeah you are right Deion never contributed AT ALL when he won his rings. ::)


he's just scared cause for some reason he thinks i make the front office decisions in DEN and he will have to change his avatar name if i trade Champ

I don't even think you have the brains to be a water boy let alone run the club.


24 champ,
Champ did not single handedly get DEN to the AFCCG either. Ive never heard that here and its ludicrious to say it!

Um...no it's not. Sorry I have to break up this Haterade on Champ thread but he did make a great play and changed the game with a 14 point swing. Whoever said it was Coyer that won the game for the Broncos is partially right with the attacking defense he implemented for the game. HOWEVER Champ made the biggest play in the game that won it for the Broncos. Champ and Darrent made a switch to confuse Brady and it worked. The play had nothing to do with Coyer.He had a career year by making plays all year and made numerous plays that ended up in us winning. For example we were about to lose to the Chargers at home and in the second half Champ Bailey came to the rescue. The Dallas game on thanksgiving where Champ returned a touchdown that set the tone for the game. He bailed us out a lot in the 2005 season and that actually garnered some MVP talk. Sorry you didn't watch the 2005 season.

[socalorado]

By the way it's spelled Deion...but yeah you are right Deion never contributed AT ALL when he won his rings. ::)




I don't even think you have the brains to be a water boy let alone run the club.




Um...no it's not. Sorry I have to break up this Haterade on Champ thread but he did make a great play and changed the game with a 14 point swing. Whoever said it was Coyer that won the game for the Broncos is partially right with the attacking defense he implemented for the game. HOWEVER Champ made the biggest play in the game that won it for the Broncos. Champ and Darrent made a switch to confuse Brady and it worked. The play had nothing to do with Coyer.He had a career year by making plays all year and made numerous plays that ended up in us winning. For example we were about to lose to the Chargers at home and in the second half Champ Bailey came to the rescue. The Dallas game on thanksgiving where Champ returned a touchdown that set the tone for the game. He bailed us out a lot in the 2005 season and that actually garnered some MVP talk. Sorry you didn't watch the 2005 season.

So he bailed "US" out of a whole bunch of games, but wasnt even close to being in the running for MVP that year. Right. sounds like alot of people were thinking the way you were.
Second to Urlacher was Colts DE Dwight Freeney with four votes. Also receiving votes were Steelers safety Troy Polamalu (3), Cardinals safety Adrian Wilson (2), Giants end Osi Umenyiora (2), Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey (1) and Jaguars tackle Marcus Stroud (1).
WOW 1 vote. Man, you just keep on making all my points for me OK,
NEON?!?!?:sunshine:

[socalorado]

These are all nice players but to do this would require going with the 5 year plan. If we are totally rebuilding than by all means do it. Remember, to grab all these youngsters means giving them time to progress as athletes. If we are playing for a Title in the next couple of years its not the move to make. And judging by what the Organization heads are saying is that they are playing for a Championship NOW.

Actually it would be more of a 3 year plan. But yeah, it could take 5 years.
DEN will not win a SB in the next 2-3 years with the current roster even sprinkling in a few decent draft picks. THis team is in complete shambles and the HC and a new QB is the only thing distracting fans from that fact. Everyone else seems to see the obvious though. Oh, and DEN is right at the bottom of the AFCW.
Anyone saying Abdullah is good, and is going to take over the SS spot, or i see alot of potential in JMoss is just being overly optimistic and they dont have anything good to talk about so naturally they try to find some vague positive aspect of DEN to discuss. This team is in disaray from top to bottom.
We could argue all day about whos fault that is, but who cares now! bottom line the team needs to be reworked and getting more high draft picks in a very deep draft is what DEN needs.


Originally Posted by lex
Trading Champ would give us the flexibility to really improve our Tackle situation or even S and even possibly McFadden depending on what the pick would be. Then there area also several LBs too but thats a reason to wait as far as Im concerned. If we were to trade Champ, Id want to definitely get Otah in the 1st though. Id also draft Tryon later as he is slotted to go in the mid rounds. A darkhorse CB I really want to draft that could have enormous potential (but who is someone I want as a returner) is Brian Witherspoon. He runs a 4.22 forty. He, Chris Johnson and Desean Jackson are probably the 3 fastest players in the draft. Witherspoon is slotted for the 7th but after the combine you might see him move up a round or two. Still, we need a returner and his speed alone makes him very attractive in that regard and if he develops as a corner its an even bigger bonus.

YES! This team could trade Champ easily. Hes very tradeable. Right now THE NYJ would give up their 1st rounder without thinking twice for him.
NYJ are going to be going against RMoss, DStallworth and WWelker for the next couple of years and will need to bolster their secondary if they want to compete against NE twice a year.
ALso, seen alot of discussion that Jerry Jones is enamoured with DeAngelo Hall and would be willing to give up a 1st rounder to ATL for him. DAL having 2 1sts would not think twice to get Champ and make a SB run agaisnt NE next year. meanwhile DEN is able to get 2 players in the draft they could build off of, instead of having fans discuss why the team suck so bad.
If DEN got its hands on DMcFadden, forget about it. 2000 yards his rookie season. Changes the entire AFC WEST back in DEN's favor and makes life a nightmare for opposing teams. Otah would also be a great fit in the 1st and DEN could focus on a player such as Terrel Thomas CB/FS/STs in the 2nd. Guy plays FS and can drop the hammer, is a really good CB plus he returns punts and kick offs. Theres your "X" factor guy picked up in the 2nd.
This draft is deepest a LB, so there will be plenty of value for LBs as well.

[Drek]

No one would give us fair market value for Champ.

The cap hit we'd take would be astronomical.

Those two reasons alone are good enough to not waste your time thinking about it.

What really seals the deal though? He's the best corner in the NFL, possibly the best corner of all time.

How old was Deion when he hung 'em up? 40.

How old was Daryl Green? 42.

Champ is significantly better than both of them. He's not one dimensional like Deion and he's more athletic than Green was in his prime.

Don't waste your time talking about Champ's window as a difference maker in this league. He'll be a top 3 corner for the next 5-7 years minimum, and after that he'll still be a top 10 guy into his late 30's.

This is also the NFL, a league where team fortunes can change in a month, let alone an entire off-season. We're sorting the wheat from the chaff on the defensive line this year, and finding a whole lot more of the later than the former, but we've got some good looking answers at DE (Dumervil, Crowder, and Moss) along with three cost controlled linemen, two of whom can play DE or DT, that will fit well into a rotation (Thomas, Kenny Peterson, and McKinney). All we need is to find some league average starters at DT and overhaul the LB corps. The later might not be so hard now that DJ is showing some progress in the middle.

That won't even be very hard when you consider that the Packers have a pair of DTs coming up on FA that used to play for Bates two years ago, and that a host of pretty solid LB talent is probably going to hit hte FA market along with what looks to be a strong LB draft.

If we went out and drafted Sam Baker or Gosder Cherilous, a solid young OLB, and some later round athletic safeties and LBs to improve special teams, then sign Corey Williams, Chris Coles, and Boss Bailey in FA. Not too much to ask and we'd be looking a hell of a lot better.

Don't let one rough transitional year make you **** your pants. The offense is looking better than it has in years and thats with Lepsis very obviously not fully back from his ACL injury and a bunch of kids stepping in to play at three of the other four spots. The OL will be even better next year if we don't do anything. That along with getting Henry, Young, Hall, and Walker all healthy will put our offense up to an even higher level.

[24champ]

So he bailed "US" out of a whole bunch of games,

Hence the reason why our rival fans call him "Champ Bailout". Yes he did bail us out of a ton of games, rewatch the 2005 season since you didn't watch it.


sounds like alot of people were thinking the way you were.
Second to Urlacher was Colts DE Dwight Freeney with four votes. Also receiving votes were Steelers safety Troy Polamalu (3), Cardinals safety Adrian Wilson (2), Giants end Osi Umenyiora (2), Broncos cornerback Champ Bailey (1) and Jaguars tackle Marcus Stroud (1).
WOW 1 vote. Man, you just keep on making all my points for me OK,
NEON?!?!

Who said that Champ garnered a bunch of MVP talk? I said-

He bailed us out a lot in the 2005 season and that actually garnered some MVP talk.

Key word being some MVP talk, how many Corners do you know that are in the running for DPOY consistently? But hey I'm not the only one that thinks Bailey is the best defensive player in the league so don't just take my word for it.

This is probably the most impressive season I've ever seen by a football player."

It was one of the unbelievable plays I've seen in my career, because I never saw the guy," Lynch explained. "I made what I thought was a pretty good move to go get the football and, all of a sudden, this flash came. I threw my arms up in the air because I didn't know who it was or where he came from.

That's why he should be the defensive player of the year. He's had a really unique and special season


I'm going to go out on a limb," Smith said last week as snow descended on the Broncos' practice facility. "This is real close with him and another guy. the best football player, period, any position I've ever played with.[B] John Elway is a legend. Champ is at that status.

"Honestly, the best football player I've ever played with -- or against
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=garber_greg&id=2719797&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab3pos2


What sets Champ apart is his ball skills," said Palmer, who ordinarily plays quarterback for the Cincinnati Bengals. "A lot of cornerbacks in this league can cover and recover and make a play on a ball, but they can't go up on the high point of the ball, or make the tough catch

Great is a word that's overused in our profession, but it's appropriate when you're talking about Champ," Indianapolis Colts quarterback Peyton Manning said. "The ability is there for anybody that makes it to the NFL. But what separates the great corners is a guy that can catch. You know the old saying about corners: They're the guys that used to play receiver but couldn't catch. He can catch unbelievably

He always had that athletic ability no other corner has," said Antonio Pierce, the New York Giants' Pro Bowl linebacker who was Bailey's teammate with the Washington Redskins from 2001-03. "He is the most gifted athlete I've ever played with. By far. He used to press receivers. Even a guy like David Boston, 6-2, 227 pounds and Champ's 190, yet Champ would be pressing him. But now, he'll bluff and lay off. He doesn't use his physical skills as much because he knows the game so well

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_5188832

Keep digging yourself a hole Socolorado.

[socalorado]

Hence the reason why our rival fans call him "Champ Bailout". Yes he did bail us out of a ton of games, rewatch the 2005 season since you didn't watch it.




Who said that Champ garnered a bunch of MVP talk? I said-



Key word being some MVP talk, how many Corners do you know that are in the running for DPOY consistently? But hey I'm not the only one that thinks Bailey is the best defensive player in the league so don't just take my word for it.





http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=garber_greg&id=2719797&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab3pos2








http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_5188832

Keep digging yourself a hole Socolorado.

And after ive dug the hole i'm going to bury you and your "homerboy love" for Champ in it.

Dont bring up any MVP talk unless he was truly in the running, that exactly what you did, then you call others out for doing the same thing.
I could care less what the assclowns at E!SPN think.
Or some homer(s) at the denver post.
And heres the hillarious aspect to this- No one here really cares!
Were just discussing it.
We dont care if he cured cancer, or solved the Middle east crisis!
We here on this thread are discussing the trade scenario, if you dont like it, youve made your homer point and we all now know what it is, great! Thanks!
Clearly you have some inferiority complex over the guy or you really, really, really dont want to change your name?
They have an option here to change avatars and names dude, its not that hard.
Question: what would be an adequate trade scenario to trading Champ for you? I mean there must be some scenario worthy of trading Champ, right?

[lex]

OK, so when we trade Champ, what should we expect to get in return?

[mattob14]

[QUOTE=socalorado;1809529]Actually it would be more of a 3 year plan. But yeah, it could take 5 years.
DEN will not win a SB in the next 2-3 years with the current roster even sprinkling in a few decent draft picks. THis team is in complete shambles and the HC and a new QB is the only thing distracting fans from that fact. Everyone else seems to see the obvious though. Oh, and DEN is right at the bottom of the AFCW.
Anyone saying Abdullah is good, and is going to take over the SS spot, or i see alot of potential in JMoss is just being overly optimistic and they dont have anything good to talk about so naturally they try to find some vague positive aspect of DEN to discuss. This team is in disaray from top to bottom.
We could argue all day about whos fault that is, but who cares now! bottom line the team needs to be reworked and getting more high draft picks in a very deep draft is what DEN needs. [QUOTE]

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You don't feel Jarvis Moss (our 1st round pick) has a lot of potential, but you're willing to trade a proven superstar for a couple of draft picks that may or may not be any better than Moss. As for Abdullah, if you'd watch the games, you'd see that he has already taken over a starting spot and has been an immediate upgrade over Ferguson. That's not optimism, that's reality. He's a young, cheap option who is already looking like a very solid player.

This is a team with a lot of talent and was predicted as an AFC favorite in the pre-season. Turnover and injuries have set them back, but this team is not in disarray. There are areas that need help, but they can all be solved this offseason WITHOUT moving Champ.

You may want to throw away the next 3-5 seasons, but I'd rather hold onto our core, add a couple of pieces and be ready to compete next season (and yes, I do think there's a strong possibility we can win the West next year).

[24champ]

:rofl: this is rich and a great start to my weekend. This is great


And after ive dug the hole i'm going to bury you and your "homerboy love" for Champ in it.


Alright here is my take on Socolorado, sums him up pretty well.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/24champbailey/0019db94.jpg


Dont bring up any MVP talk unless he was truly in the running, that exactly what you did, then you call others out for doing the same thing.

Just stating the facts mam'. He is highly regarded around the league as the best defensive player and even our own player Rod Smith said-

This is real close with him and another guy. [Bailey's] the best football player, period, any position I've ever played with. John Elway is a legend. Champ is at that status.

"Honestly, the best football player I've ever played with -- or against

But wait there's more...

Never, never, never, never,” Johnson, the league’s leading receiver in yards said Wednesday. “He is the best man to ever wear a uniform, period. I mean, besides Deion (Sanders).”

Regular corners play not to get beat. Then you have Champ Bailey, who plays to make a play. Period. He's in a class of his own. Deion Sanders played the game to make a play. Everyone else plays the game not to get beat. Remember that quote"

He's consistent year in and year out. Name another defensive back in the NFL who is consistent year in and year out. Please. Year in and year out. Not two years in the league. Year in and year out.


Or some homer(s) at the denver post.

Yep, everyone in the NFL is a homer about Champ Bailey. Read the article first before you post. ::)




Were just discussing it.



Gee whiz really? I am making the case, along with several others that actually have a clue about football, that you CAN build a better team WITH Champ Bailey without trading him. You just have to be smart about it.

We dont care if he cured cancer, or solved the Middle east crisis!

He could if he doesn't spend so much time shutting down recievers...


We here on this thread are discussing the trade scenario, if you dont like it, youve made your homer point and we all now know what it is, great! Thanks!

No problem, by the way how is your significant other sally the goat?

Clearly you have some inferiority complex over the guy or you really, really, really dont want to change your name?
They have an option here to change avatars and names dude, its not that hard.

You are way off the mark on that one, first of all my name will be intact. WHY? Because Champ Bailey will be in the HOF in orange and blue when it is all said and done. My problem is that some posters think it is equal value to trade Champ Bailey for some draft picks. It isn't equal value what is being talked about on here. Secondly this is an EXTREMELY risky move on the part of the front office by getting some UNPROVEN players in return. Thirdly dumping their best player to do a complete rebuild isn't the MO of this front office and more importantly the Owner. The want to compete for a super bowl every year.

Question: what would be an adequate trade scenario to trading Champ for you? I mean there must be some scenario worthy of trading Champ, right?

As I said repeatedly, there isn't one. Just like with John Elway, there isn't a trade in the world that I would do for either of these guys. I would put Cutler up in that same class as well.

[24champ]

No one would give us fair market value for Champ.

The cap hit we'd take would be astronomical.

Those two reasons alone are good enough to not waste your time thinking about it.

What really seals the deal though? He's the best corner in the NFL, possibly the best corner of all time.

How old was Deion when he hung 'em up? 40.

How old was Daryl Green? 42.

Champ is significantly better than both of them. He's not one dimensional like Deion and he's more athletic than Green was in his prime.

Don't waste your time talking about Champ's window as a difference maker in this league. He'll be a top 3 corner for the next 5-7 years minimum, and after that he'll still be a top 10 guy into his late 30's.

This is also the NFL, a league where team fortunes can change in a month, let alone an entire off-season. We're sorting the wheat from the chaff on the defensive line this year, and finding a whole lot more of the later than the former, but we've got some good looking answers at DE (Dumervil, Crowder, and Moss) along with three cost controlled linemen, two of whom can play DE or DT, that will fit well into a rotation (Thomas, Kenny Peterson, and McKinney). All we need is to find some league average starters at DT and overhaul the LB corps. The later might not be so hard now that DJ is showing some progress in the middle.

That won't even be very hard when you consider that the Packers have a pair of DTs coming up on FA that used to play for Bates two years ago, and that a host of pretty solid LB talent is probably going to hit hte FA market along with what looks to be a strong LB draft.

If we went out and drafted Sam Baker or Gosder Cherilous, a solid young OLB, and some later round athletic safeties and LBs to improve special teams, then sign Corey Williams, Chris Coles, and Boss Bailey in FA. Not too much to ask and we'd be looking a hell of a lot better.

Don't let one rough transitional year make you **** your pants. The offense is looking better than it has in years and thats with Lepsis very obviously not fully back from his ACL injury and a bunch of kids stepping in to play at three of the other four spots. The OL will be even better next year if we don't do anything. That along with getting Henry, Young, Hall, and Walker all healthy will put our offense up to an even higher level.

WOW EXCELLENT POST DREK!

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m105/bigjoeltd/247e0c8881aa752c189b6cf337b4.gif

Pretty much nailed it.

[socalorado]

:rofl: this is rich and a great start to my weekend. This is great




Alright here is my take on Socolorado, sums him up pretty well.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/24champbailey/0019db94.jpg




Just stating the facts mam'. He is highly regarded around the league as the best defensive player and even our own player Rod Smith said-



But wait there's more...





Yep, everyone in the NFL is a homer about Champ Bailey. Read the article first before you post. ::)








Gee whiz really? I am making the case, along with several others that actually have a clue about football, that you CAN build a better team WITH Champ Bailey without trading him. You just have to be smart about it.



He could if he doesn't spend so much time shutting down recievers...




No problem, by the way how is your significant other sally the goat?



You are way off the mark on that one, first of all my name will be intact. WHY? Because Champ Bailey will be in the HOF in orange and blue when it is all said and done. My problem is that some posters think it is equal value to trade Champ Bailey for some draft picks. It isn't equal value what is being talked about on here. Secondly this is an EXTREMELY risky move on the part of the front office by getting some UNPROVEN players in return. Thirdly dumping their best player to do a complete rebuild isn't the MO of this front office and more importantly the Owner. The want to compete for a super bowl every year.



As I said repeatedly, there isn't one. Just like with John Elway, there isn't a trade in the world that I would do for either of these guys. I would put Cutler up in that same class as well.

More lame ass excuses and the usual HOMER response.
24Champbailey, look we know you have an inferiority complex and you are scared that this thread is going to be the beggining of the end for your "manboy love" thing that you have going on with champ and your computer. Clearly you love making pictures in photo shop which tells us all exactly where you spend your time. Look, were not going to take away your most favorite boy, OK? Just relax, maybe go ask to be put down for another nap oK?

Also, why is it that you constantly resort to making personal attacks on posters here (and obviously elsewhere) which in turn results in the rest of us having to clown you?
Everyone here always has to retaliate against your lame ass posts against us.
What/why is that?

[socalorado]

[QUOTE=socalorado;1809529]Actually it would be more of a 3 year plan. But yeah, it could take 5 years.
DEN will not win a SB in the next 2-3 years with the current roster even sprinkling in a few decent draft picks. THis team is in complete shambles and the HC and a new QB is the only thing distracting fans from that fact. Everyone else seems to see the obvious though. Oh, and DEN is right at the bottom of the AFCW.
Anyone saying Abdullah is good, and is going to take over the SS spot, or i see alot of potential in JMoss is just being overly optimistic and they dont have anything good to talk about so naturally they try to find some vague positive aspect of DEN to discuss. This team is in disaray from top to bottom.
We could argue all day about whos fault that is, but who cares now! bottom line the team needs to be reworked and getting more high draft picks in a very deep draft is what DEN needs. [QUOTE]

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You don't feel Jarvis Moss (our 1st round pick) has a lot of potential, but you're willing to trade a proven superstar for a couple of draft picks that may or may not be any better than Moss. As for Abdullah, if you'd watch the games, you'd see that he has already taken over a starting spot and has been an immediate upgrade over Ferguson. That's not optimism, that's reality. He's a young, cheap option who is already looking like a very solid player.
No, thats optimism. The reality is he's only shown some promise and nothing more.
Starting SS, hardly on any other team. No, the safety position is in complete shambles and it shows, glaringly, every game.

This is a team with a lot of talent and was predicted as an AFC favorite in the pre-season. Turnover and injuries have set them back, but this team is not in disarray. There are areas that need help, but they can all be solved this offseason WITHOUT moving Champ.
This is a team with alot of talent huh?
Hey uh whats there record again?
Thats a great excuse, only there preformance and record says otherwise.
Please stop with all thee excuses. The defense totally sucks and any honest NFL observer knows it. PERIOD.

You may want to throw away the next 3-5 seasons, but I'd rather hold onto our core, add a couple of pieces and be ready to compete next season (and yes, I do think there's a strong possibility we can win the West next year).
There is no way in hell this team wins anything unless whole sale changes are put into place.
This constant BS about "oh lets wait till next year and you'll see!" crap is getting old. This team squeeks by when it wins, and when it loses, it loses in the most horrid, embarassing way a team can.

[24champ]

More lame ass excuses and the usual HOMER response.

If there is anything lame in this thread, it's YOU. I've already backed up my statements with players in the league that have played in the league with or against Champ. Sorry if that puts a dent in your dumb argument for trading Champ.


24Champbailey, look we know you have an inferiority complex and you are scared that this thread is going to be the beggining of the end for your "manboy love" thing that you have going on with champ and your computer.

Admit it, your jealous.

Clearly you love making pictures in photo shop which tells us all exactly where you spend your time. Look, were not going to take away your most favorite boy, OK?

Least I don't spend my time with my head up my ass like you do clearly.


Also, why is it that you constantly resort to making personal attacks on posters here (and obviously elsewhere) which in turn results in the rest of us having to clown you?
Everyone here always has to retaliate against your lame ass posts against us.
What/why is that?

Because it needs to be done when morons make really dumb threads...like trading Champ Bailey.

[NFLBRONCO]

Um no you don't. We traded for Champ because we realized we had to have a stud corner to shut down the Harrison's of this league. Get rid of Champ and you are getting rid of the best tackler and man to man player in the league. This guy had in my opinion some Defensive Player of the Year seasons already in Denver. It would also mean that the defense would have to cover more of the field since Champ Bailey would not be there to shut down half the field. Draft picks are a big gamble and most of these draftees in the trenches that you speak of won't be ready to produce until their 3rd year in our systems. I think we have the ends down with Moss, Crowder, Dumervil. Inside we have Thomas and Mckinely. These guys will round out their game in due time. Now if you want to draft multiple lineman and expect them to produce right away, then your going to have to ditch the scheme we have in place and the coaches aren't going to do that.



Bailey doesn't have any value with this FO, tell you why because he is un-tradeable. Your going to have to look at other alternatives to bolster the team WITH Bailey on the team. Like trading down to get more picks, you don't have to trade Champ to get more picks. We had a rough year, but it doesn't mean that you have to trade your best player and start from scratch. Like in 1994-95 we had a bad year and we didn't trade John Elway and what do you know, 3 years down the road we get a Super Bowl.




This team has just went over a massive overhaul of the roster and also the schemes on defense changed big time, it's going to take a little bit to get the team feeling comfortable about their teammates and knowing what is required of them in the scheme. We lost a lot of starters on the offensive line, wide recievers were banged up all year. Cutler is in his first full year starting and is getting better every game.

What your advocating another massive overhaul of the team and this time it is with younger players via the draft. That won't do any good for the franchise because judging by Mike Shanahan and Pat Bowlen philosophy of WIN NOW, they aren't going to all of a sudden dump players for draft picks. It isn't what they have done over the years and I doubt they will begin to change their philosophy because of one bad year.


I guess we agree to disagree on this subject. I'm looking at the present shape of the team its soft. So yes I myself would be open to moving Champ because of it. It is just a discussion that's all. I guess we should save this thread and in 4 or 5 years revisit this thread. See how many SB's we were in along the way. The point is really I hope we don't waste a talent like Champ's and not even make a serious run before he declines or suffers a major injury. This team has alot of work to do plain and simple. I love Champ Bailey and love having a shutdown corner but, its nicer when you are closer to a legit SB shot right now I don't see it. Teams don't care about Champ they can run all day long and expose our S and LB too.

[socalorado]

If there is anything lame in this thread, it's YOU. I've already backed up my statements with players in the league that have played in the league with or against Champ. Sorry if that puts a dent in your dumb argument for trading Champ.

Backed up his "opinions" with guys that burned Champ. And Chads a moron as well. Yeah nice. So you must be the only guy who takes what Chad johnson says to be truth. WOW! No i am begininng to see where your major problems are.
Admit it, your jealous.

If you could just use that inferiority complex to your benefit, by somehow getting paid to wipe Champs ass. Or you could make him a photo shop picture of him! That ought to help with the therapy as well! Think positve thoughts!
Least I don't spend my time with my head up my ass like you do clearly.

At least i dont spend my time with my head up CHAMPS ass like you do! CLEARLY! HOMER!


Because it needs to be done when morons make really dumb threads...like trading Champ Bailey.

WOW. Just wow. Time for a nap,24chumpbailey...

[socalorado]

I guess we agree to disagree on this subject. I'm looking at the present shape of the team its soft. So yes I myself would be open to moving Champ because of it. It is just a discussion that's all. I guess we should save this thread and in 4 or 5 years revisit this thread. See how many SB's we were in along the way. The point is really I hope we don't waste a talent like Champ's and not even make a serious run before he declines or suffers a major injury.

Yeah i see what you mean by soft.
DEN just seems to be the one team in the NFL that will basically allow you to beat them without much of a fight on defense.
I havent seen a team in the league just "give away games" like DEN in a long time.
Pretty pathetic. I would say a overhaul needs to be in the works.

[24champ]

WOW. Just wow. Time for a nap,24chumpbailey...

WEAK.

[24champ]

I guess we agree to disagree on this subject. I'm looking at the present shape of the team its soft. So yes I myself would be open to moving Champ because of it. It is just a discussion that's all. I guess we should save this thread and in 4 or 5 years revisit this thread. See how many SB's we were in along the way. The point is really I hope we don't waste a talent like Champ's and not even make a serious run before he declines or suffers a major injury. This team has alot of work to do plain and simple. I love Champ Bailey and love having a shutdown corner but, its nicer when you are closer to a legit SB shot right now I don't see it. Teams don't care about Champ they can run all day long and expose our S and LB too.

So by that logic, in 94-95 you would Trade John Elway? The team was 7-9 that year and looked like the Broncos were going nowhere.

[Drek]

Yeah i see what you mean by soft.
DEN just seems to be the one team in the NFL that will basically allow you to beat them without much of a fight on defense.
I havent seen a team in the league just "give away games" like DEN in a long time.
Pretty pathetic. I would say a overhaul needs to be in the works.

Green Bay, first half of '05, was pretty damn horrid on defense. People didn't acknowledge it because they were crap in general.

The only reason everyone is being so damn critical of this team is because we've been in so many games that we've squandered. Thats not the sign of a team rotten to the core when many of those losses came against division leaders. Its a sign of a very young, inexperienced crew.

Now you're basically campaigning to trade one of the few veteran leaders on this team who will stand the test of time and be an elite player for over half a decade?

What sense does that make?

We've got some problems but it isn't a team in need of wholesale changes, just one that needs an identity on defense and a little time to find itself before getting snake bit with injuries on offense.

Think about it. We're short two WRs, two OLs, and we've played musical chairs at running back all season. The only guys who've consistently been on the field are kids and recent FA acquisitions. Our offense has still lit some very good teams up, including some of the top ranked defenses in the NFL.

There needs to be some changes made, but they're pretty much defensive front seven only. Other than that if we can avoid the major injury we'll be a significantly better team next season.

Bunch of chicken littles. Tell you what, when this team is actually a playoff competitor starting in a year or two for the better part of a decade we'll all make sure to remind you of just how much of a panicky jackass you really are.

[lex]

So by that logic, in 94-95 you would Trade John Elway? The team was 7-9 that year and looked like the Broncos were going nowhere.

I dont want to get into a big thing with you. Its apparent by your screen name and posts that you are a bigger fan of Champ Bailey than you are of the Broncos. Thats not the case with the vast majority of us however. Its predictable that trading Champ wouldnt go over well with you. We all like Champ. However, we all think he's great and there have been solid arguments on both sides by people who are more pro-Broncos than pro-Champ Bailey. So please relax and let the conversation revert back to the way it was before you made it a personal crusade. Weve all heard your perspective.

[socalorado]

Green Bay, first half of '05, was pretty damn horrid on defense. People didn't acknowledge it because they were crap in general.

The only reason everyone is being so damn critical of this team is because we've been in so many games that we've squandered. Thats not the sign of a team rotten to the core when many of those losses came against division leaders. Its a sign of a very young, inexperienced crew.

Now you're basically campaigning to trade one of the few veteran leaders on this team who will stand the test of time and be an elite player for over half a decade?

What sense does that make?

We've got some problems but it isn't a team in need of wholesale changes, just one that needs an identity on defense and a little time to find itself before getting snake bit with injuries on offense.

Think about it. We're short two WRs, two OLs, and we've played musical chairs at running back all season. The only guys who've consistently been on the field are kids and recent FA acquisitions. Our offense has still lit some very good teams up, including some of the top ranked defenses in the NFL.

There needs to be some changes made, but they're pretty much defensive front seven only. Other than that if we can avoid the major injury we'll be a significantly better team next season.

Bunch of chicken littles. Tell you what, when this team is actually a playoff competitor starting in a year or two for the better part of a decade we'll all make sure to remind you of just how much of a panicky jackass you really are.

Sure! And when this team continues to suck balls like it has and currently does, i'll be sure to remind you how DEN could of avoided it.
Sorry your accessment of this year is totally wrong and your excuses are obvious. I think you like many are just writing the season off and hoping for more cheesy changes in the offseason, and thats fine. No prob. I understand your point of view and i value it.
I think alot of the players are highly overrated and alot of posters are making excuses simply because theyve wearing their orange tinted glasses a little too long.
Oh and BTW, DEN defense looks like a panicky jackass

[Northman]

People just need to settle down. No one here has control of what is going to happen to the team. We all want what is best for the team we just disagree on how it should come about. But to get all worked up about it is pointless.

[socalorado]

People just need to settle down. No one here has control of what is going to happen to the team. We all want what is best for the team we just disagree on how it should come about. But to get all worked up about it is pointless.

Exactly! Please refer to my 1st post! i even put a disclaimer on it, so posters would'nt run to therapy over a hypothetical scenario!Hilarious!

[NFLBRONCO]

I decided I'm going to call a Psychic hotline tonight and see their unbiased view on this subject :). Let the stars answer this question.

[24champ]

I dont want to get into a big thing with you.

Good then don't. But...

Its apparent by your screen name and posts that you are a bigger fan of Champ Bailey than you are of the Broncos.

Maybe you don't understand, Champ Bailey embodies what a Bronco should be. That's why I like him so much, he makes plays on the field and he also is a great professional off of it.

He has Future hall of famer written all over him and I WILL go to his HOF ceremony when he IS inducted as a BRONCO. Trading him would do more harm to the TEAM, that's why I am against your stupid logic that trading Champ for a few draft picks will make everything hunky doory in 3-4 years, you don't know that. If you want more draft picks then trade down, SOCAL agrees with me on that.

We all like Champ

REALLY?


However, we all think he's great and there have been solid arguments on both sides by people who are more pro-Broncos than pro-Champ Bailey.

What's wrong with being pro-Broncos AND pro-Champ? In fact I am pro-super bowl in the next 2-3 years. Speaking of which I don't know why you quoted my post when you never answered the question. In fact I asked that question several times in this thread and it is obvious people are dodging it.


So please relax and let the conversation revert back to the way it was before you made it a personal crusade. Weve all heard your perspective.

You mean shut me up because you don't like my opinion on the subject and let the conversation continue about what kind of draftees while we get while we are trading a great player? Won't happen.

Theres already posts about what will happen in 4 something years if we trade Champ, I tell you what will happen, we will turn into Redskin fans bitching and moaning about the trade.

[24champ]

I think alot of the players are highly overrated and alot of posters are making excuses simply because theyve wearing their orange tinted glasses a little too long.

Yeah Rod Smith is a dumb moron with orange tinted glasses right? ::)

I'm going to go out on a limb," Smith said last week as snow descended on the Broncos' practice facility. "This is real close with him and another guy. [Bailey's] the best football player, period, any position I've ever played with. John Elway is a legend. Champ is at that status.

"Honestly, the best football player I've ever played with -- or against

[socalorado]

Yeah Rod Smith is a dumb moron with orange tinted glasses right? ::)

Wow Up from his nap, and crying already. Its easy to compliment teammates. I'm sure they compliment each other all the time.

Again, searching for a stupid, useless, lame ass, attempt at trying to start a argument over your screen name is just showing everyone just how bad that inferiority complex you've clearly developed really is! :welcome:
Relax, and stop telling us about your planned trip to Canton. Its Ok, we know your a real big boy fan of champs and you got your diaper autographed by him and all that neat stuff.
Like a number of sane posters have been commenting, its just a thread, ok?
:sunshine:

[mattob14]

[QUOTE=mattob14;1809823][QUOTE=socalorado;1809529]Actually it would be more of a 3 year plan. But yeah, it could take 5 years.
DEN will not win a SB in the next 2-3 years with the current roster even sprinkling in a few decent draft picks. THis team is in complete shambles and the HC and a new QB is the only thing distracting fans from that fact. Everyone else seems to see the obvious though. Oh, and DEN is right at the bottom of the AFCW.
Anyone saying Abdullah is good, and is going to take over the SS spot, or i see alot of potential in JMoss is just being overly optimistic and they dont have anything good to talk about so naturally they try to find some vague positive aspect of DEN to discuss. This team is in disaray from top to bottom.
We could argue all day about whos fault that is, but who cares now! bottom line the team needs to be reworked and getting more high draft picks in a very deep draft is what DEN needs.
There is no way in hell this team wins anything unless whole sale changes are put into place.
This constant BS about "oh lets wait till next year and you'll see!" crap is getting old. This team squeeks by when it wins, and when it loses, it loses in the most horrid, embarassing way a team can.

Do me a favor, look up the roster of the Green Bay Packers. I would argue that, man for man, we have a younger roster that is just as talented, with the most notable exception being the D-Line. Of course, that changes if we bring in Corey Williams in FA. The primary differences right now between the Broncos and Packers are health, continuity and a few good bounces. There is such parity in the NFL now that the Broncos could easily put out a lineup to rival the '07 Packers (arguably the best team in the NFC) with just a couple of key moves this offseason.

[24champ]

Its easy to compliment teammates. I'm sure they compliment each other all the time.


Yeah how many times have you heard Rod Smith say that a teammate is John Elway status, or that the said teammate is the best player he has ever played with. ::)

keep Spinning sunshine.




Again, searching for a stupid, useless, lame ass, attempt at trying to start a argument over your screen name is just showing everyone just how bad that inferiority complex you've clearly developed really is!

(yawn)


Relax, and stop telling us about your planned trip to Canton.

I only mentioned it once. Guess you can't bear the thought of Champ entering the HOF under the Broncos.


Like a number of sane posters have been commenting, its just a thread, ok

Yeah it's just a thread, until somebody blows the whistle and points out what a stupid thread it is.

[lex]

Good then don't. But...



Maybe you don't understand, Champ Bailey embodies what a Bronco should be. That's why I like him so much, he makes plays on the field and he also is a great professional off of it.

He has Future hall of famer written all over him and I WILL go to his HOF ceremony when he IS inducted as a BRONCO. Trading him would do more harm to the TEAM, that's why I am against your stupid logic that trading Champ for a few draft picks will make everything hunky doory in 3-4 years, you don't know that. If you want more draft picks then trade down, SOCAL agrees with me on that.



REALLY?




What's wrong with being pro-Broncos AND pro-Champ? In fact I am pro-super bowl in the next 2-3 years. Speaking of which I don't know why you quoted my post when you never answered the question. In fact I asked that question several times in this thread and it is obvious people are dodging it.




You mean shut me up because you don't like my opinion on the subject and let the conversation continue about what kind of draftees while we get while we are trading a great player? Won't happen.

Theres already posts about what will happen in 4 something years if we trade Champ, I tell you what will happen, we will turn into Redskin fans b****ing and moaning about the trade.


No, I mean shut up because youre not one of us. Your loyalty is with Champ while ours is with the Broncos. That massive distinction fills you with the kind of vitriol that displaces civil discussion.

[24champ]

No, I mean shut up because youre not one of us. Your loyalty is with Champ while ours is with the Broncos. That massive distinction fills you with the kind of vitriol that displaces civil discussion.

Awesome, when you coming out to a Bronco game? I'm at most of them, so whenever your in town and want to chat about my allegiance to the Broncos, drop me a PM.