Cutler has Elway beat, for starters

[DukeWoody]

Cutler has Elway beat, for starters
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 11/21/2007 02:43:38 AM MST

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_7519830

Steve Young, the former 49ers star, is a big fan of Jay Cutler, above. (Post file)

Jay Cutler is better than John Elway.

Hold on. Don't crumple the newspaper and throw it at the cat just yet. For the sake of posterity, the first comment will be revised. Ready?

Jay Cutler is way better than John Elway.

Look it up and compare. Cutler has played in 15 NFL games. Put his numbers against Elway through 15 games. It's not close.

All right, all right. It's time to get serious. It's already established Elway overcame his early NFL struggles and became one of the best quarterbacks to have his bust bronzed in Canton. Cutler may have been more polished early, but is it realistic to expect him to lead his team to five Super Bowls?

If he does, Cutler will become only the second quarterback to do it. Elway
was the first.
The reason the comparison is brought up is because Monday night was the first time Cutler played like Elway.

"I give Jay a lot of credit for hanging in this first 15, 16 games," Steve Young, the Hall of Fame quarterback and ESPN analyst, said after the network's Chalk Talk luncheon Monday to promote its telecast. "He's been asked to go through a lot. Legacy. Expectations."

The legacy of John Elway never was accurately depicted through stats. He didn't complete passes. He darted and twisted to escape the pass rush. His eyes bulging, Elway would seek greater open space to operate. He would scramble this way, gun it that way. The crowd would go berserk, the players would get an emotional lift, and momentum was colored orange.

Stats don't measure improvisation. Elway was the one of the best improvisational quarterbacks ever.

In a 34-20 victory Monday night against the Tennessee Titans, Cutler improvised. Before, he had shown poise, accuracy and a ball hard enough to squeeze between defenders, but not so hard he took skin from his receivers' hands. But Cutler also had seemed programmed, a cutout from Mike Shanahan's playbook.

Not Monday. On his first two completions to Brandon Stokley, Cutler looked

like he was a kid again, playing with his buddies at Holly Park in Santa Claus, Ind.
"Me and Brandon kind of drew both of those in the dirt," Cutler said.

Sweet imagery, drawing plays in the dirt. Sweet because it's fun.

"He's got the ability to make something when nothing is there," Shanahan said. "The sign of a good to great quarterback is he can make something happen when the play breaks down."

Cutler had the impressive stats to support his fine play Monday. But his 48-yard touchdown pass to Stokley cannot be found diagrammed in the Broncos' playbook. By design, Cutler rolled right. But no one was open. Oh, oh. Cutler stayed alive. He kept his feet moving and eyes searching.

"The first touchdown to me was kind of a broken play," Stokley said. "I broke my route off and he found me, and he made a great throw, right over a linebacker. And it kind of set the momentum for the game."

A scrambling quarterback performance was expected from the Titans-Broncos game. But the athletic demonstration was supposed to come from Vince Young, Tennessee's second-year quarterback. No disappointment there. Young combined for 379 yards of passing and rushing. But Cutler gave him company.

Cutler didn't just put up efficient numbers. He had fun doing it.

"Jay's mentally tough," said Steve Young, who also brought improvisational characteristics to his game. "Like all young quarterbacks, he sometimes does stupid things. Has he lost a bunch of games? He's maybe lost a couple. Has he won a few? Yeah, he has. But from an offensive perspective, Tennessee doesn't ask nearly as much of Vince Young as Jay Cutler. Not even close."

Don't feel bad, Vince. It's tough to find a quarterback who is comparatively close to Cutler through 15 games.



Here we go with the Elway comparisons...I'm affraid JC will live in the shadow of Elway until he wins a Super Bowl...The good thing is he seems prepared to do so..

[COBronco 69]

Jays got alot more talent around him than John did, dumb comparisons...

[BroncoDoug]

this is just wow.... I don't even know what to say to this...

[Doggcow]

Through 15 games Jay has some epic stats though. I love the kid.

[Paladin]

Jays got alot more talent around him than John did, dumb comparisons...

QFT.....

[Will Wayfarer]

If the fans didn't demand 10 Broncos articles everyday from both local newspapers, sports writers wouldn't have to contrive these ridiculous stories.

[NYBronco]

A small observation after the Tenn game but Cutler sounded much more confident during his post game interview.

[Bronco LB 59]

Jays got alot more talent around him than John did, dumb comparisons...

The era is different, too. The offenses today are more pass oriented compared to 23 years ago. Passing statistics are more inflated than ever.

Regardless, Cutler is off to a good start.

[atomicbloke]

Is there an award for the most terribly-written article?

[razorwire77]

Dumb dumb article. Think about where the Bronco franchise was in 1983, and where it is now.

Klis with a inane and pointless comparison article. Who woulda thunk it?

[OrangeShadow]

Jays got alot more talent around him than John did, dumb comparisons...

bingo.

[Bronx33]

I don't like the elway comparisons articals but for bronco fans there is no better measuring stick from a QB stand point, but i really hope jay is avoiding all this kinda talk and keeps learning from the best. (Just let jay be jay and we will go from there)

[TomServo]

Jays got alot more talent around him than John did, dumb comparisons...

1983 9-7 went to playoffs. lost in first round of playoffs
1984 13-3 lost to bubby freakin brister and the stealers in the divisional game
time makes people forget doesnt it?
and for what its worth anyone recall the same greise to elway comparison?
no doubt about it though, jays gonna be top 5 or better for a long time to come

[Kaylore]

Cutler was more NFL ready coming out of the draft than Elway was. Elway was terribly lanky, raw and very unpolished making most of his plays in college on his athleticism (not that that's rare.) His first season was a lot of him fumbling around and DeBerg coming in later to clean up the mess. Also consider that Elway played in the amazing Dan Reeves offense, which looks eerily like Germ Warfare over in chefs planet.

Elway's defense was better, but I agree with the sentiment that Cutler is better now than Elway was after the same number of games. It's pretty obvious. Cutler was more physically prepared, he was more mentally prepared, he's had two training camps in as many games to Elway's just one, and he has coaching staff that supports him with good plays and offensive weapons. Of course Cutler is playing better.

Will he be as good as John for the next fifteen years or so going forward? Highly unlikely, but not impossible.

[TomServo]

1984 13-3 lost to bubby freakin brister and the stealers in the divisional game

check that. it was mark freakin malone. that was the original bronco playoff disaster before the jags playoff debacle.
the '83 team defense ranked 9th.
the '84 team ranked 2nd.
imagine what jay couldve done with that this year and last.

[eddie mac]

Jays got alot more talent around him than John did, dumb comparisons...

He should have. Problem is 1/2 them cant get on the field.

[COBronco 69]

He should have. Problem is 1/2 them cant get on the field.

LOL, true....

[eddie mac]

Cutler is currently the best QB in the league passing from outside the pocket.

Which is unbelieveable considering he lost his No1 receiver and deep threat in week 3. He lost his best guard before the season started, Pears is one of the weakest RT's in the league, he's had no consistent running game to back him up or to utilise playaction more and his top receiving TE only re-surfaced a few weeks ago.

That's not even looking at the fact we've been starting drives deeper in our own territory than the majority of other teams in this league.

Jay, IMHO has done a tremendous job to date and he's had to grow up quickly and become a leader cos there aren't any other leaders on the offense at present.

The sad fact is whenever a franchise has a god as their QB for umpteen years they're always going to be looking to someone to take on that chalice. Let's just hope it isn't poisoned.

[orange 4 life]

1983 9-7 went to playoffs. lost in first round of playoffs
1984 13-3 lost to bubby freakin brister and the stealers in the divisional game
time makes people forget doesnt it?
and for what its worth anyone recall the same greise to elway comparison?
no doubt about it though, jays gonna be top 5 or better for a long time to come

1982 before elway?

2-7 and only won the 2 by a total of 6 points.

stats dont measure what john elway did......AT ALL.

[orange 4 life]

check that. it was mark freakin malone. that was the original bronco playoff disaster before the jags playoff debacle.
the '83 team defense ranked 9th.
the '84 team ranked 2nd.
imagine what jay couldve done with that this year and last.

elway was BADLY hurt going into that game, and could barely WALK, let alone run.
it was like watching a more talented morton from '77. the guy just couldnt move.
had he been healthy, that team wouldve at least gone to the afc championship game. not bad for a second year qb who had to take the offense on his back even at that point in his career.

[-Slap-]

Elway fans better prepare themselves for a lot of this kind of talk. It's very likely that Jay will produce much more impressive statistics than John throughout his career. That factor, and his very immediacy, as opposed to a man who retired in the last century, will very quickly lead many new fans - and some older ones - to conclude Jay is the superior quarterback.

As a lifeling Elway fan, and 30+ year Bronco fan, this is not exactly a bad situation. I'm sure Jay, and John, will be able to shrug off the comparisons easily enough. I will just consider the Broncos a blessed franchise if Jay is able to stand the test of time and truly validate these lofty comparisons. Few teams have had one great quarterback arrive in town within ten years of the last one.

[Spider]

Hell I like em both , Elway and Cutler .........

[Jason in LA]

Most players stats today are going to be better than players from many years ago. It's a pass happy league today. Put Elway fresh out of college onto this Broncos team, with Shanahan as the head coach, and he would have crazy numbers. Dan Reeves is a big reason why Elway didn't have great numbers his first 10 years. As soon as Reeves left and the Broncos used an offense that was better suited for Elway, his numbers went way up.

If Cutler can play 16 years for the Broncos, and reach his potential, he should break all of Elway's records. He has all the advantages at this point. But if Cutler does break all of Elway's records, that wouldn't mean that he was a greater QB. But, I certainly wouldn't have any problem with Cutler becoming a greater QB. That would bring us more Super Bowls.

[rovolution]

1983 9-7 went to playoffs. lost in first round of playoffs
1984 13-3 lost to bubby freakin brister and the stealers in the divisional game
time makes people forget doesnt it?
and for what its worth anyone recall the same greise to elway comparison?
no doubt about it though, jays gonna be top 5 or better for a long time to come

But John had much, much better defenses then Jay does, ie very similar to Vince Youngs situation when Haynesworth is in their lineup.


Tom Jackson, Dennis Smith, Kragen, Meck, Louie Wright, Rulon Jones, Gradishar....

Its like the 85 Bears when compared to the crap we trot out out there today sans our starting corners, a healthy Lynch, and Dumervil.

[Spider]

LOL....... John was John , Jay is Jay .Whats better the Corvette or a Viper ?
Johns time came and went , it is fun to remember him ...... Jays time is now

[baja]

I'll take the Viper

[Spider]

I'll take the Viper

Hippy

[orange 4 life]

Hell I like em both , Elway and Cutler .........

amen.

no comparison necessary.

[JJJ]

You guys got yourself a real good quarterback in Cutler. Well done.

I think we have an imposter on our hands.

[Bronx33]

You guys got yourself a real good quarterback in Cutler. Well done.

I think we have an imposter on our hands.




Was letting brees go a mistake in your opinion?

[baja]

Hippy

That's Hippie and thanks.

[orange 4 life]

But John had much, much better defenses then Jay does, ie very similar to Vince Youngs situation when Haynesworth is in their lineup.


Tom Jackson, Dennis Smith, Kragen, Meck, Louie Wright, Rulon Jones, Gradishar....

Its like the 85 Bears when compared to the crap we trot out out there today sans our starting corners, a healthy Lynch, and Dumervil.

wright and TJ retired after the '86 season. gradishar was gone after '83, and IMHO kragen isnt really worth mentioning as being an exceptional player. there were plenty of guys on those teams superior to greg kragen.
those defenses were better than THIS seasons defense, but they were far from exceptional, and gave up tons of yards. collier and his "bend but dont break" attitude made things exciting and forced alot of turnovers, but it also limited our offenses time of possession.

elways early defenses were the guys still left from the orange crush combined with some moderately talented young players and a FEW standouts.
it was a capable defense, but far from great.

[Spider]

That's Hippie and thanks.

your welcome ;D

[JJJ]

Was letting brees go a mistake in your opinion?

One of them had to go. I think AJ thought Brees was undersized and was an injury waiting to happen. Also Rivers was AJ's pick, Brees wasn't. The injury that did happen gave him all the reason he needed to get his boy in the box.

In hindsight I would say Brees would have gotten us out of the first round of the playoffs last year. But Drew hasn't shown a great pension for showng up in big games so going any further probably would have been wishful thinking. See Jets playoff loss and last year with the Saints.

Mistake, no. Brees kind of played his way out of a job in 05. Rivers being such a high pick had to get his shot. Letting Brees go for basically nothing was rather stupid though in my opinion.

But I don't think Rivers is going to be able to overcome his immobility and poor mechanics to rise to where Cutler is headed.

[-Slap-]

wright and TJ retired after the '86 season. gradishar was gone after '83, and IMHO kragen isnt really worth mentioning as being an exceptional player. there were plenty of guys on those teams superior to greg kragen.
those defenses were better than THIS seasons defense, but they were far from exceptional, and gave up tons of yards. collier and his "bend but dont break" attitude made things exciting and forced alot of turnovers, but it also limited our offenses time of possession.

elways early defenses were the guys still left from the orange crush combined with some moderately talented young players and a FEW standouts.
it was a capable defense, but far from great.

Correct. Especially in comparison to the truly great NFC defenses from the same era.

[BroncoMan4ever]

Reeves threw Elway to the wolves in his rookie year and Elway learned to take the entire offense on his shoulders. Right now Cutler is leading and looking good, but he has weapons and other players to help him carry the load.

[Chris]

If the fans didn't demand 10 Broncos articles everyday from both local newspapers, sports writers wouldn't have to contrive these ridiculous stories.

haha. best post i've read in a while.

[-Slap-]

If the fans didn't demand 10 Broncos articles everyday from both local newspapers, sports writers wouldn't have to contrive these ridiculous stories.

I appreciate it when someone decides to write something about one of the 60 players or coaches on the team not named Jay Cutler or Brandon Marshall. Every one of these guys got to the NFL somehow and they all have interesting stories.

To be fair, when a Hall of Fame quarterback like Steve Young offers his opinions on Cutler, it's something most Bronco fans would consider worthwhile reading.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Dan Reeves is a big reason why Elway didn't have great numbers his first 10 years. As soon as Reeves left and the Broncos used an offense that was better suited for Elway, his numbers went way up.
Bingo.

[Cito Pelon]

Bingo.

I get tired of folks blaming Reeves for Elway's cluelessness in the passing game in his early years. Elway couldn't make touch passes at all in his early years. He had only one pass in his repertoire, wait until the receiver stops, then fire it in his vicinity as hard as he could and hope the reciever catches it. Reeves actually did Elway a favor by designing passing plays that Elway could handle, like rolling out to the right then throwing all the way across the field to a wide open receiver lagging behind the D as they chased to the other side of the field. Many of Elway's early TD's came from that. Elway didn't have a clue in the pocket in his early years. Reeves had to protect the team from Elway f'ing things up with his INT's early in his career. Without Reeves managing Elway's erratic pocket passing, Denver never makes the SB's they did when Reeves was the HC.

Not to mention Shannon Sharpe bailing Elway out time after time after time. Without Sharpe, Elway looks like crap statistically.

[-Slap-]

The comedy potential of this thread is about to explode exponentially.

A couple quick observations. First, those times Elway threw the ball all the way across his body were improvised, not brilliant examples of Dan Reeves twisted genius.

Also, John Elway had been to three Super Bowls, won an MVP award and appeared in four Pro Bowls before Shannon Sharpe ascended to the starting lineup in 1992.

[Kaylore]

I get tired of folks blaming Reeves for Elway's cluelessness in the passing game in his early years. Elway couldn't make touch passes at all in his early years. He had only one pass in his repertoire, wait until the receiver stops, then fire it in his vicinity as hard as he could and hope the reciever catches it. Reeves actually did Elway a favor by designing passing plays that Elway could handle, like rolling out to the right then throwing all the way across the field to a wide open receiver lagging behind the D as they chased to the other side of the field. Many of Elway's early TD's came from that. Elway didn't have a clue in the pocket in his early years. Reeves had to protect the team from Elway f'ing things up with his INT's early in his career. Without Reeves managing Elway's erratic pocket passing, Denver never makes the SB's they did when Reeves was the HC.

Not to mention Shannon Sharpe bailing Elway out time after time after time. Without Sharpe, Elway looks like crap statistically.

Didn't Reeves say Elway couldn't throw a touch pass? (even though he did so in his rookie year against the Colts for the comeback) And now you're defending Reeves and attacking Elway...

Cito is Dan Reeves! That explains why he hates Shanahan! I thought it was just the Portis/Bailey trade that pisses of Cito, but maybe he is Dan Reeves!

[Spider]

Didn't Reeves say Elway couldn't throw a touch pass? (even though he did so in his rookie year against the Colts for the comeback) And now you're defending Reeves and attacking Elway...

Cito is Dan Reeves! That explains why he hates Shanahan! I thought it was just the Portis/Bailey trade that pisses of Cito, but maybe he is Dan Reeves!

i want to see him do the dirty bird

[Cito Pelon]

The comedy potential of this thread is about to explode exponentially.

A couple quick observations. First, those times Elway threw the ball all the way across his body were improvised, not brilliant examples of Dan Reeves twisted genius.

Also, John Elway had been to three Super Bowls, won an MVP award and appeared in four Pro Bowls before Shannon Sharpe ascended to the starting lineup in 1992.

Sharpe accounted for 44 TD's for Elway. Not to mention the number of first downs he accounted for Elway. And those three Super Bowls prior to Sharpe were a lot Reeves. And Reeves sure as heck designed plays for the erratic Elway to throw to a wide open man rather than read coverage. Many times Elway rolled right to set up a WR hanging out on the left sideline while the DB's chased right.

[Cito Pelon]

Didn't Reeves say Elway couldn't throw a touch pass? (even though he did so in his rookie year against the Colts for the comeback) And now you're defending Reeves and attacking Elway...

Cito is Dan Reeves! That explains why he hates Shanahan! I thought it was just the Portis/Bailey trade that pisses of Cito, but maybe he is Dan Reeves!

Ha-ha, very funny. I just get tired of people constantly bagging on Reeves when it's a team game, not just one guy. Elway didn't get to all those Super Bowls all by himself like the popular myth is. There were some coaches and other players and the Mile High crowd also involved. There were plenty of games Elway almost played the team out of the game, and the team and coaching staff got them back into the game despite Elway.

[Cito Pelon]

i want to see him do the dirty bird

Pervert. You been in California too long. You must have picked up some baaad inclinations there. ;)

[JJJ]

Great coaches don't win championships great players do. (Only exception may be Lombardi). A good coach lets the players reach thier full potential but it is rare that a championship is won without great players.

That is why teams win Superbowls in streaks. Noll could't win without Bradshaw, Landry without Staubach, Shula without Greise and Csonka, the list goes on and on. They all won their championships in streaks when they had 2 or 3 exceptional players that pulled up the rest of the team.

Pats too. If Brady is hurt tomorrow what odds would you take they would finish the season undefeated. Without good starting material it is like an artist trying to make a clay pot out of horse shiat.

Dynasties need game changers on offense (a great QB, running back, & WR) and a good defense.

Elway was one of those rare game changing players that raised the level of the team's play consistently enough that championships became possible when enough of the other elements fell into place. TD and Sharpe were the 2 missing key elements that took them to rarified air, not the coaching.

Dan Reeves was lucky to have Elway not the other way around. Though it seemed in the early years he was trying pretty hard to screw with Elway's head. Otherwise you might have won three of the first 5 SBs Elway was in.

[TomServo]

1982 before elway?

2-7 and only won the 2 by a total of 6 points.

stats dont measure what john elway did......AT ALL.
elway was benched and old man deberg got us into the playoffs

elway was BADLY hurt going into that game, and could barely WALK, let alone run.
it was like watching a more talented morton from '77. the guy just couldnt move.
had he been healthy, that team wouldve at least gone to the afc championship game. not bad for a second year qb who had to take the offense on his back even at that point in his career.
elway was taped up like a gunslinger. i never said that original playoff disaster was his fault

<!-- / message -->But John had much, much better defenses then Jay does, ie very similar to Vince Youngs situation when Haynesworth is in their lineup.


Tom Jackson, Dennis Smith, Kragen, Meck, Louie Wright, Rulon Jones, Gradishar....

Its like the 85 Bears when compared to the crap we trot out out there today sans our starting corners, a healthy Lynch, and Dumervil.
so you didnt even read my post about elway having the 9th and 2nd ranked defenses in '83 '84?
as a bronco fan i feel blessed to have had elway play for us. and i feel the same about cutler<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[baja]

Didn't Reeves say Elway couldn't throw a touch pass? (even though he did so in his rookie year against the Colts for the comeback) And now you're defending Reeves and attacking Elway...

Cito is Dan Reeves! That explains why he hates Shanahan! I thought it was just the Portis/Bailey trade that pisses of Cito, but maybe he is Dan Reeves!

So Dan Revees wants to colonize Mars?

[Kaylore]

Ha-ha, very funny. I just get tired of people constantly bagging on Reeves when it's a team game, not just one guy. Elway didn't get to all those Super Bowls all by himself like the popular myth is. There were some coaches and other players and the Mile High crowd also involved.
Well I don't dispute that. People do tend to overstate Elway a bit, but most people love him because of all the great things he did. And I remember the Dan Reeves offense and it was trap play, trap play, and then Elway would bail the offense out on third down.

There were plenty of games Elway almost played the team out of the game, and the team and coaching staff got them back into the game despite Elway.

Ok you just lost me. That's a bunch of crap.

[-Slap-]

Elway had his share of games where played like crap for three quarters and then led us back to victory in the fourth quarter. Pretty hard to place those wins on the coaching staff, though. In fact, most of those fast paced fourth quarter comebacks worked because the playcalling was, by necessity, more aggressive and John was doing more improvising.

One of Reeves biggest faults was his failure to make halftime adjustments. The Reeves regime was always much more likely to blame player execution than they ever were to admit flaws with the gameplan. To suggest the Broncos got back into games because Dan rolled up his sleeves at the half and devised new approaches on the spot is pure fantasy.

[orange 4 life]

haha. best post i've read in a while.

really?

i'd like to see 20 articles like we did in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's.

.....and there would still be no need for an elway/cutler comparison.

im more interested in what cutler gave out for halloween. Ha!

[footstepsfrom#27]

I get tired of folks blaming Reeves for Elway's cluelessness in the passing game in his early years. Elway couldn't make touch passes at all in his early years. He had only one pass in his repertoire, wait until the receiver stops, then fire it in his vicinity as hard as he could and hope the reciever catches it. Reeves actually did Elway a favor by designing passing plays that Elway could handle, like rolling out to the right then throwing all the way across the field to a wide open receiver lagging behind the D as they chased to the other side of the field. Many of Elway's early TD's came from that. Elway didn't have a clue in the pocket in his early years. Reeves had to protect the team from Elway f'ing things up with his INT's early in his career. Without Reeves managing Elway's erratic pocket passing, Denver never makes the SB's they did when Reeves was the HC.

Not to mention Shannon Sharpe bailing Elway out time after time after time. Without Sharpe, Elway looks like crap statistically.
R66v6s sucks. He had a decade of Elway in his prime and never figured out how to put a team around him to take advantage of a HOF QB in order to win it all. Year after year he drafted small finesse type players when it was obvious the rest of the NFL was going big and physical. His game plan consisted of giving it off to Sammy Winder on 1st and 2nd down and letting Elway run for his life on 3rd down trying to make something happen. If Denver had played in the NFC during that stretch we'd have been to 0 Superbowls. It's no accident an aging Elway wins 2 in a row AFTER R66v6s left.

[theAPAOps5]

I get tired of folks blaming Reeves for Elway's cluelessness in the passing game in his early years. Elway couldn't make touch passes at all in his early years. He had only one pass in his repertoire, wait until the receiver stops, then fire it in his vicinity as hard as he could and hope the reciever catches it. Reeves actually did Elway a favor by designing passing plays that Elway could handle, like rolling out to the right then throwing all the way across the field to a wide open receiver lagging behind the D as they chased to the other side of the field. Many of Elway's early TD's came from that. Elway didn't have a clue in the pocket in his early years. Reeves had to protect the team from Elway f'ing things up with his INT's early in his career. Without Reeves managing Elway's erratic pocket passing, Denver never makes the SB's they did when Reeves was the HC.

Not to mention Shannon Sharpe bailing Elway out time after time after time. Without Sharpe, Elway looks like crap statistically.

Sharpe bailing Elway out, Reeves being the success!!!!!!!:spit: . Any success the team had under Reeves was because of Shannahan and Elway not the because of Reeves.

Elway got to the superbowl 3 times in spite of Reeves and the team around him, not the other way.

[Northman]

Elway was one of those rare game changing players that raised the level of the team's play consistently enough that championships became possible when enough of the other elements fell into place.

Dan Reeves was lucky to have Elway not the other way around.


Bingo. Although Reeves can take "some" credit for making it too 3 Super Bowls with Elway it had more to do with John than Dan. A lot of the times it was Reeves conservative play calling that allowed Denver to get into holes and then force John to have to make those spectacular comebacks. Ironically, it was this same type of game planning that allowed Denver to trounce Reeves Falcons in the Super Bowl. Its hilarious that someone would think that Reeves taught John how to throwback to the other side of the field when Elway had been doing that type of passing since his days in high school. Hilarious!

[cutthemdown]

We all know it was Elways toughness and competitivness that made him what he was. It remains to be seen whether Cutler has those traits in the amounts elway did. His arm is really live and I like how he can move, but Elway didn't have much of team those first couple years.

[orange 4 life]

Bingo. Although Reeves can take "some" credit for making it too 3 Super Bowls with Elway it had more to do with John than Dan. A lot of the times it was Reeves conservative play calling that allowed Denver to get into holes and then force John to have to make those spectacular comebacks. Ironically, it was this same type of game planning that allowed Denver to trounce Reeves Falcons in the Super Bowl. Its hilarious that someone would think that Reeves taught John how to throwback to the other side of the field when Elway had been doing that type of passing since his days in high school. Hilarious!

.....and of course no one has yet to mention that shanahans initial demise in denver was due to the fact that he and elway conspired behind reeves' back to create plays that would allow elway to work his magic.

[theAPAOps5]

.....and of course no one has yet to mention that shanahans initial demise in denver was due to the fact that he and elway conspired behind reeves' back to create plays that would allow elway to work his magic.

Bingo Bango

[B-Love]

There is no question Cito's take is a bad one, i.e. crediting Reeves more than Elway. I defend Reeves alot more than most, but that is just not a good take Cito.

But, boy o boy, there are no worse takes on this board, than the exaggerated anti Dan Reeves takes that people love to throw out there.

Reeves won 10 games with Craig Morton in 1981, got a Wild Card spot in 1983 with Steve Deberg, and won 13 games in 1984 with Elway throwing for a measely 2,400 yards.

But, according to people here, the 11 wins in 1985 and 1986 are because Elway "singlehandedly carried us on his back"??? That is so god damned ridiculous and I'm embarrassed for people who continue to type it.

[B-Love]

Ugh, this 4th quarter comeback thing. I continue to type this but no one ever wants to believe it.

Here we go; everyone please read below; I'm gonna type it one more time.

John Elway AVERAGED MORE 4TH QUARTER COMEBACKS PER SEASON UNDER MIKE SHANAHAN THAN DAN REEVES. True; 100% true.

True story everyone; please stop saying "John has all those comebacks because he sent Winder between the Guards on 1st and 2nd down and then ran for his life on 3rd down".

We were the best team in the AFC in 1986 and we had 1 4th quarter comeback in 1986. Elway hit Gene Lang with a short TD to put Denver ahead 38-36 in the season opener, with about 8 minutes left in the game.

Please stop saying "we went to those 80's Super Bowls because of all those 4th quarter comebacks. It's just wrong.

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We were the best team in the AFC in 1986 and we had 1 4th quarter comeback in 1986. Elway hit Gene Lang with a short TD to put Denver ahead 38-36 in the season opener, with about 8 minutes left in the game.


Against the Raiders. I thought I was going to have a heart attack watching that game.

[Cito Pelon]

R66v6s sucks. [QUOTE]He had a decade of Elway in his prime and never figured out how to put a team around him to take advantage of a HOF QB in order to win it all.

He only put a team around him good enough to win a lot of games, a lot of playoff games and 3 AFC Titles. Pretty crappy coach.

Year after year he drafted small finesse type players when it was obvious the rest of the NFL was going big and physical. His game plan consisted of giving it off to Sammy Winder on 1st and 2nd down and letting Elway run for his life on 3rd down trying to make something happen.

Just like Shanahan, but Shanahan is a god. And Elway was in the top 5 all the time in pass attempts under Reeves, so I guess Winder would flea0flicker it back to Elway on 1st and 2nd down a lot?


If Denver had played in the NFC during that stretch we'd have been to 0 Superbowls. It's no accident an aging Elway wins 2 in a row AFTER R66v6s left

I was goofing around with you guys a little bit Friday, but nevertheless it's silly to hang onto this myth that Reeves didn't have anything to do with Elway's and the team's great success in those years, but was solely responsible for the failures.

[Cito Pelon]

Sharpe bailing Elway out, Reeves being the success!!!!!!!:spit: . Any success the team had under Reeves was because of Shannahan and Elway not the because of Reeves.

Elway got to the superbowl 3 times in spite of Reeves and the team around him, not the other way.

Myth.

[footstepsfrom#27]

He only put a team around him good enough to win a lot of games, a lot of playoff games and 3 AFC Titles. Pretty crappy coach.
Right...3 AFC titles...in the NFC during that stretch we'd have won zero.
Just like Shanahan, but Shanahan is a god.
Not just like Shanahan...Shanahan put together a smash mouth running game in the late 90's with Davis and 3 guys on that O-line who were pro bowl caliber plus an excellent drive blocking fullback. Reeves in his entire career in Denver never put a decent O-line in front of John...certainly nothng like the caliber of Shanahan's lines during the '96-99 seasons...and while Shanny's been justifiably criticized for not putting enough emphasis on the D-line, at least he's tried to utilize size in the line, something R66v6s never did.
I was goofing around with you guys a little bit Friday, but nevertheless it's silly to hang onto this myth that Reeves didn't have anything to do with Elway's and the team's great success in those years, but was solely responsible for the failures.
Reeves retarded Elway's development...end of story. Truly great coaches are judged by what they do in the ultimate game...and nobody was more inept than R66v6s in the championships. I'm pretty sure Marty Shottenheimer could have done what R66v6s did with the same team. This debate goes on and on...but you'll never convince me that R66v6s was anything more than just a mediocre coach who was lucky enough to have a once in a generation QB and the benefit of a weak conference to play in.

[Cito Pelon]

Well I don't dispute that. People do tend to overstate Elway a bit, but most people love him because of all the great things he did. And I remember the Dan Reeves offense and it was trap play, trap play, and then Elway would bail the offense out on third down.



Ok you just lost me. That's a bunch of crap.

I was exaggerating a bit to aggravate the knee-jerk Reeves haters, but nevertheless how many times was Elway erratic and throwing INT's early in the game? A lot. He got cussed at quite a bit by fans.

And Elway had tons of pass attempts, was up in the top five almost every year in pass attempts, but Reeves only "allowed" Elway to throw on third down?

[Cito Pelon]

Bingo. Although Reeves can take "some" credit for making it too 3 Super Bowls with Elway it had more to do with John than Dan. [QUOTE]A lot of the times it was Reeves conservative play calling that allowed Denver to get into holes and then force John to have to make those spectacular comebacks.

Elway's INT's didn't have anything to do with that?

Its hilarious that someone would think that Reeves taught John how to throwback to the other side of the field when Elway had been doing that type of passing since his days in high school. Hilarious!

Reeves designed plays to let Elway roll right then let fly across the field to a receiver waiting on the left sideline, happened many, many times.

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE]There is no question Cito's take is a bad one, i.e. crediting Reeves more than Elway. I defend Reeves alot more than most, but that is just not a good take Cito.

I was goofing around some to aggravate the Reeves-hating, myth-perpetuating, revisionist-historians.

But, boy o boy, there are no worse takes on this board, than the exaggerated anti Dan Reeves takes that people love to throw out there.

No kidding.

Reeves won 10 games with Craig Morton in 1981, got a Wild Card spot in 1983 with Steve Deberg, and won 13 games in 1984 with Elway throwing for a measely 2,400 yards.

But, according to people here, the 11 wins in 1985 and 1986 are because Elway "singlehandedly carried us on his back"??? That is so god damned ridiculous and I'm embarrassed for people who continue to type it.

No kidding.

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Reeves could be criticized for the same things Shanahan gets criticized for today. He never put enough offensive talent around John and during the last couple years, it almost looked like he was out to wreck his career.

We were starting Jeff ****ing Davidson at left tackle. Arthur Marshall and Derek Russell were the starting wideouts. Is it any wonder John is the most sacked quarterback in history?

I still haven't forgotten that Reeves tried to trade John to Washington, either. No Bronco fan should ever forget that. The guy was willing to destroy the whole franchise because he found himself in a feud with his best player. I despised Dan for that until John and Mike put things right in XXXIII. Oh, and who can forget Dan's whimpering and whining during the media week of XXXIII. I better wrap this up before I actually start hating him again.

If you really want to know the former Broncos coach who takes too much ****, he's coaching the first place Cowboys right now. Wade Phillips was the guy who brought in Gary Zimmerman. He also tried to bring in Tim Brown, but settled for Anthony Miller. Those moves alone, plus the hiring of Jim Fassel, revitalized Elway's desire for the game. Anyone who denies this wasn't following the team very closely.

[Cito Pelon]

Reeves could be criticized for the same things Shanahan gets criticized for today. He never put enough offensive talent around John and during the last couple years, it almost looked like he was out to wreck his career.

We were starting Jeff ****ing Davidson at left tackle. Arthur Marshall and Derek Russell were the starting wideouts. Is it any wonder John is the most sacked quarterback in history?

I still haven't forgotten that Reeves tried to trade John to Washington, either. No Bronco fan should ever forget that. The guy was willing to destroy the whole franchise because he found himself in a feud with his best player. I despised Dan for that until John and Mike put things right in XXXIII. Oh, and who can forget Dan's whimpering and whining during the media week of XXXIII. I better wrap this up before I actually start hating him again.

If you really want to know the former Broncos coach who takes too much ****, he's coaching the first place Cowboys right now. Wade Phillips was the guy who brought in Gary Zimmerman. He also tried to bring in Tim Brown, but settled for Anthony Miller. Those moves alone, plus the hiring of Jim Fassel, revitalized Elway's desire for the game. Anyone who denies this wasn't following the team very closely.

Yah, Reeves was losing it there at the end, I guess. I was out of town at the time and didn't follow the team as closely as before, maybe that's why I don't hate on Reeves as much as some others.

As for Wade, I remember talking to folks back in Denver when he was HC, and they never gave him a chance. He was just the idiot son-of-Bum.

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People also like to just label Wade as "a guy who's only a coordinator" and dismiss him. It's true he made some mistakes in Denver, but he inherited an extremely talent poor team and he helped set the table for our future dynasty. Let's not forget, his record in Buffalo was far from terrible. He went 11-5 and 10-6 and made the playoffs twice and then got canned after an 8-8 season. He managed this while enduring endless meddling from Ralph Wilson. This year, he's guided a team that went 9-7 last season to a 10-1 record and the top seed in his conference.

[azbroncfan]

People also like to just label Wade as "a guy who's only a coordinator" and dismiss him. It's true he made some mistakes in Denver, but he inherited an extremely talent poor team and he helped set the table for our future dynasty. Let's not forget, his record in Buffalo was far from terrible. He went 11-5 and 10-6 and made the playoffs twice and then got canned after an 8-8 season. He managed this while enduring endless meddling from Ralph Wilson. This year, he's guided a team that went 9-7 last season to a 10-1 record and the top seed in his conference.

Wait weren't you one who ripped the signing by Dallas?

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Wait weren't you one who ripped the signing by Dallas?

You're confused.