Time to ditch the zone-blocking scheme?

[eddie mac]

With Tom Nalen possibly calling it a career after this season and Ben Hamilton's future unknown we'll basically be going into next season with the current O-Line plus whatever additions we make.

The running-back situation is just as cloudy with Mr Smoked my brains out on the verge of a 1 year ban and if so then a 1 way ticket out of Denver.

My point is given our very average running game this season and poor pass protection is it time to go in a different direction with more focus on protecting Cutler and introducing the more successful NFL game of power running by bringing bigger linemen a proper FB and a bigger RB into the team???

I realise a change like this couldn't be fully operational within one season but in hindsight if Cutler is the future of the Broncos at some point we have to build a line that isn't going to get him killed in every game. Plus we need a line than can create running lanes for the backs and give RB's a chance inside the 5 yard line.

This current line doesn't and I dont think it's powerful enough to ever do so.

There's a reason why this team is one of the worst inside the redzone in the NFL. Part of it is the playcalling but the majority of it is the line being blown apart by the opposition.

It would take a lot of guts to change the system because it has been so successful here for years but I haven't seen much out of it in the last 2-3 seasons, we'll not since we had Mike Anderson here so is the way forward to change it or do we continue with the faster tiny tots who give Jay about 3 seconds to throw the ball???

[yavoon]

no, but lotsa teams run zone blocking w/ good pass blockers as well. pats, colts, raiders, vikings(other ppl can fill in the rest) all zone block.

we just can't make zone blocking our gimmick.

[RhymesayersDU]

I think we need to get bigger. I don't know if that means we have to ditch that system, but size would be nice.

[eddie mac]

Maybe I worded the thread wrong. I sorta meant changing the philosophy from smaller faster linemen to huge ****ers no-one can get by.

[bpc]

Listen, what we should do is cut a third of the coaches on this roster. Dennison has to be included in that. You take that money, divy it up, go out and get Howard Mudd, the Indianapolis Colts OL coach. Give him a million dollar pay raise... whatever. Make it happen.

That line has been blocking so well for Peyton Manning... do you even remember him getting touched in the past couple years?

Indy has a similar line setup to us... lighter guys that can pass block first and are also a pretty damn good run blocking team.

We need to be able to set up a five step drop pocket around Cutler without getting him killed.

[lex]

No, we dont need to ditch the system but maybe it would be useful to change our priorities when looking for linemen. Instead of getting small guys who are mobile but "strong enough", we should get bigger/stronger linemen who are "mobile enough".

[telluride]

This is minutiae. What we need is a new GM and new head coach.

[eddie mac]

Our top RB in the last 4 games.

v SD Henry 16-65
v PIT Henry 17-51
v GB Young 18-71
v DET Henry 9-31

That's unheard of in Denver. Running game is pityful at present and something needs addressed.

[lex]

This is minutiae. What we need is a new GM and new head coach.

Does the bloodlust ever stop?

[RhymesayersDU]

Our top RB in the last 4 games.

v SD Henry 16-65
v PIT Henry 17-51
v GB Young 18-71
v DET Henry 9-31

That's unheard of in Denver. Running game is pityful at present and something needs addressed.

But I wonder what would happen if we got to a point where Cutler was feared. Also, would having Javon in there make a difference?

Our OLine has been bad. But I also wonder what the running situation would look like if our passing game was hitting on all cylinders.

[Xenos]

Listen, what we should do is cut a third of the coaches on this roster. Dennison has to be included in that. You take that money, divy it up, go out and get Howard Mudd, the Indianapolis Colts OL coach. Give him a million dollar pay raise... whatever. Make it happen.

That line has been blocking so well for Peyton Manning... do you even remember him getting touched in the past couple years?

Indy has a similar line setup to us... lighter guys that can pass block first and are also a pretty damn good run blocking team.

We need to be able to set up a five step drop pocket around Cutler without getting him killed.

A good part of thing is due to Peyton and Saturday though. You could end up with another Jim Bates where you have the "right" coach, but don't have the personnel.

[yavoon]

A good part of thing is due to Peyton and Saturday though. You could end up with another Jim Bates where you have the "right" coach, but don't have the personnel.

jim bates isnt a very impresive coach. I would have much rather had a pressure oriented coach like jim johnson or gregg williams, or a 3-4 coach or a tampa 2 coach. I guess tho when all those guys wanna go better places we have to pretend jim bates is awesome.

[elsid13]

Our top RB in the last 4 games.

v SD Henry 16-65
v PIT Henry 17-51
v GB Young 18-71
v DET Henry 9-31

That's unheard of in Denver. Running game is pityful at present and something needs addressed.

How much is the line, and how much is the RB not hitting the right hole??? I haven't been impressed with Henry and his ability to take one cut and go. And Young is dancing to much when he had chance. The line is young and potentially very good, if the RBs hit the right hole

[broncofan2438]

This team needs help and fast.....wave the white flag

[lex]

This team needs help and fast.....wave the white flag


I think we maybe should go after Locklear in the draft. We really need help at tackle.

[bpc]

A good part of thing is due to Peyton and Saturday though. You could end up with another Jim Bates where you have the "right" coach, but don't have the personnel.

I don't think we've had good pass blocking coaching since Gibbs left. That is the main reason why Plummer could never pass from the pocket... however i'm not saying it would have been pretty.

The OL pass blocking just hasn't been very good. The fundamentals don't see very good.

I still think Myers, Kuper and some others are good players. They just need a better coach driving their ass. Like I said, i've thought that for years.

[rovolution]

why did shanny have to ruin his relationship with Alex Gibbs?

Gibbs would have verbally destroyed Myers and Pears for their piss poor pass protection.

[Xenos]

I don't think we've had good pass blocking coaching since Gibbs left. That is the main reason why Plummer could never pass from the pocket... however i'm not saying it would have been pretty.

The OL pass blocking just hasn't been very good. The fundamentals don't see very good.

I still think Myers, Kuper and some others are good players. They just need a better coach driving their ass. Like I said, i've thought that for years.

Well from the few Colts fan that I have talked to on their board, they seem really high on Mudd, so it never hurts to try. I guess the main concern is that those same Colts fan also talked about how great Manning and Saturday is at recognizing where the pressure is. Not to mention that Peyton just get rids of the ball so quickly.

But yeah, I agree with you. I don't think you need to change to a power blocking scheme.

[lex]

I don't think we've had good pass blocking coaching since Gibbs left. That is the main reason why Plummer could never pass from the pocket... however i'm not saying it would have been pretty.

The OL pass blocking just hasn't been very good. The fundamentals don't see very good.

I still think Myers, Kuper and some others are good players. They just need a better coach driving their ass. Like I said, i've thought that for years.

cosign....

[Los Broncos]

It would be nice to see some fresh faces on the o-line.

We should go to the draft for this.

Get bigger and stronger

[bpc]

jim bates isnt a very impresive coach. I would have much rather had a pressure oriented coach like jim johnson or gregg williams, or a 3-4 coach or a tampa 2 coach. I guess tho when all those guys wanna go better places we have to pretend jim bates is awesome.

I actually thinks Bates runs a great 4-3 defense as long as you have competent players. We don't have that right now in the front seven.

My only complaint is that we have Champ Bailey and Dre Bly covering Shaun McDonald and Mike Furrey while Roy Williams and Calvin Johnson are running around slaughtering D. Foxworth and K. Paymah. That to me is stupidity.

[yavoon]

I actually thinks Bates runs a great 4-3 defense as long as you have competent players. We don't have that right now in the front seven.

My only complaint is that we have Champ Bailey and Dre Bly covering Shaun McDonald and Mike Furrey while Roy Williams and Calvin Johnson are running around slaughtering D. Foxworth and K. Paymah. That to me is stupidity.

almost anyone, given good enough players who are "their kind" will run a decent defense. I find bates' schemes basic, and outdated against what the league faces now. now that doesn't mean if you dont' stick talent in there it wont perform. get a really good NT, get a really good DE get some really good corners and a really good MLB. but hell now ur defense is completely stacked.

and like you said, if you have 2 good corners you need to WORK THEM, not just throw them in "the scheme" and kinda hope it works out.

[Garcia Bronco]

I don't think we've had good pass blocking coaching since Gibbs left. That is the main reason why Plummer could never pass from the pocket... however i'm not saying it would have been pretty.

The OL pass blocking just hasn't been very good. The fundamentals don't see very good.

I still think Myers, Kuper and some others are good players. They just need a better coach driving their ass. Like I said, i've thought that for years.

plummer couldn't throw from the pocket because he wasn't tall enough.

[bronco militia]

give me a break.....this team needs better players, period

[Rock Chalk]

give me a break.....this team needs better players, period

Pretty ****in simple when it all comes down to it huh?

[bpc]

why did shanny have to ruin his relationship with Alex Gibbs?

Gibbs would have verbally destroyed Myers and Pears for their piss poor pass protection.

Well... couple thoughts here.

1. As much as I respect Shanahan, he answers to no one. His rule is absolute. There was only one guy who had any type of control over his group/position in his time with Denver and that was Gibbs. Shanahan couldn't say anything to him. I think in the long run, that wore on him. I don't think he was sad to see him go when he finally walked.

2. I watched the play that Cutler got hurt on just wondering how the hell did three guys get in the backfield so fast... this is not making excuses for Myers but we were running some sort of double screen where the linemen have to pop the defensive linemen quickly to jolt them, stop their rush and then get down field. Myers took a poor step towards Rogers and didn't get a good shot on him... basically a whiff and Rogers was into the backfield as quick as a cat and on top of Cutler. When you saw two guys coming from either side and colliding with Cutler, our line actually did its job at other positions... the play wasn't designed to hold blocks for that long. Ultimately it was Myers job to hold Rogers off the QB which he could not do. Just a little 411. BTW, I still think our pass blocking sucks.

[bpc]

Well from the few Colts fan that I have talked to on their board, they seem really high on Mudd, so it never hurts to try. I guess the main concern is that those same Colts fan also talked about how great Manning and Saturday is at recognizing where the pressure is. Not to mention that Peyton just get rids of the ball so quickly.

But yeah, I agree with you. I don't think you need to change to a power blocking scheme.


No doubt. Peyton is the best on-field coach in the league. Saturday and him have a great on-field relationships.

[bpc]

plummer couldn't throw from the pocket because he wasn't tall enough.

Is he shorter than Favre because he looks like he's doing fine.

Besides Nalen and Lepsis SOMETIMES our Guards and Tackles have been getting worked on the way to QB. It's either talent or coaching. I guess you could make a case for both with how we are playing.

[rovolution]

Well... couple thoughts here.

1. As much as I respect Shanahan, he answers to no one. His rule is absolute. There was only one guy who had any type of control over his group/position in his time with Denver and that was Gibbs. Shanahan couldn't say anything to him. I think in the long run, that wore on him. I don't think he was sad to see him go when he finally walked.

2. I watched the play that Cutler got hurt on just wondering how the hell did three guys get in the backfield so fast... this is not making excuses for Myers but we were running some sort of double screen where the linemen have to pop the defensive linemen quickly to jolt them, stop their rush and then get down field. Myers took a poor step towards Rogers and didn't get a good shot on him... basically a whiff and Rogers was into the backfield as quick as a cat and on top of Cutler. When you saw two guys coming from either side and colliding with Cutler, our line actually did its job at other positions... the play wasn't designed to hold blocks for that long. Ultimately it was Myers job to hold Rogers off the QB which he could not do. Just a little 411. BTW, I still think our pass blocking sucks.

good analysis.

I mentioned Pears because it goes back to the Green Bay game.

Yea i know hes one of the best in the league, but Kampman was just abusing Pears in all sorts of ways.

Dewayne White was also having his way with Pears as well.

[Garcia Bronco]

this isn't really directed at anyone.....but some of the stuff you guys come up with is ridiculous.

[chaz]

what is the history between gibbs and shanahan? how did things go sour? I was too young to follow the team then so i don't really know the story....

[rovolution]

what is the history between gibbs and shanahan? how did things go sour? I was too young to follow the team then so i don't really know the story....


i think it was a bunch of things, but one of those things was Shanny firing Gibbs' son.

[Sodak]

plummer couldn't throw from the pocket because he wasn't tall enough.

Plummer couldn't throw from the pocket because he couldn't throw. Darryl Hackney can throw from the pocket because Hackney can throw. What is he? All of six foot?

[bpc]

good analysis.

I mentioned Pears because it goes back to the Green Bay game.

Yea i know hes one of the best in the league, but Kampman was just abusing Pears in all sorts of ways.

Dewayne White was also having his way with Pears as well.

I right there with you. I can work with the learning curves of Kuper and Myers for now. This is their first year.

Pears wouldn't start for 31/32 teams... of course we plop him back there and don't even try to find a replacement or a challenger for him this offseason.

The guy gets owned by any above average pass rusher. You can go from Merriman to Kampman and everybody in between. If I was KC, I would flip Jared Allen over to LDE and let him play against Pears. He might finish with 4 sacks and one dead Cutler.

[lex]

i think it was a bunch of things, but one of those things was Shanny firing Gibbs' son.


Gibbs' son cant stick around but guys like Dennison can?

[wolf754life]

of course dennison can stay, he is a made man, just like shanny, if shanny likes, shanny keeps, very hypocritical at dove valley, but know this boys and girls, he is running dangerously low on scapegoats, the gaze of broncos country is turning inward at him, for all these terrible personnel moves and coaching gaffes! The JIG is UP, they FINALLY FOUND IT!

[lex]

of course dennison can stay, he is a made man, just like shanny, if shanny likes, shanny keeps, very hypocritical at dove valley, but know this boys and girls, he is running dangerously low on scapegoats, the gaze of broncos country is turning inward at him, for all these terrible personnel moves and coaching gaffes! The JIG is UP, they FINALLY FOUND IT!

Has anyone ever heard Dennisons name kicked around for being offered a job with another team?

[wolf754life]

Hey Coach: Fewer car commercials, more football!!

Everytime we turn on the radio, open a paper or look at the tube, there he is. And now he's doing ads for some jewelry store. Enough already! Shanahan, come home to the Broncos and quit the extra money-makers. We need EVERY MOMENT OF YOUR ATTENTION on the job YOU WERE HIRED TO DO.

[lex]

Hey Coach: Fewer car commercials, more football!!

Everytime we turn on the radio, open a paper or look at the tube, there he is. And now he's doing ads for some jewelry store. Enough already! Shanahan, come home to the Broncos and quit the extra money-makers. We need EVERY MOMENT OF YOUR ATTENTION on the job YOU WERE HIRED TO DO.


FWIW, its the same in Chicago with Lovie Smith. He does ads for Comcast and a cell phone provider I think. I think he also does some ads for a restaurant. I could be wrong but I know he does the Comcast ads for sure.

[yavoon]

Has anyone ever heard Dennisons name kicked around for being offered a job with another team?

is there a shannahan coaching tree at all? I guess kubiak is in houston now. but thats pretty much it.

[alkemical]

give me a break.....this team needs better players, period

qft

[lex]

is there a shannahan coaching tree at all? I guess kubiak is in houston now. but thats pretty much it.

The coaching tree thing doesnt bother me as much as why theres no coaching tree. The fact that there are few Shanahan proteges alone isnt so bad but if he is just keeping around yes men, then thats kind of a problem. Take Gibbs for example. That guy may never be a head coach but that doesnt mean he's not a quality coach.

[broncofan2438]

Gotta switch it up

[rovolution]

is there a shannahan coaching tree at all? I guess kubiak is in houston now. but thats pretty much it.

Kubes and Dorrell at UCLA

[elsid13]

Kubes and Dorrell at UCLA

The guy at AFA, and Brewster at Minn.

Both credit Shanahan for influencing their careers.

We don't know how many coaches decided to stay in Denver because it good organization rather attempt something different

[fontaine]

this isn't really directed at anyone.....but some of the stuff you guys come up with is ridiculous.

You know what the worst part of it is?

We don't even use primary zone blocking system in our pass protection. But yeah let's get rid of it because the pass blocking was bad for one game when we were forced to air it out.
:rofl:

[fontaine]

Pears wouldn't start for 31/32 teams... of course we plop him back there and don't even try to find a replacement or a challenger for him this offseason.

The guy gets owned by any above average pass rusher. You can go from Merriman to Kampman and everybody in between. If I was KC, I would flip Jared Allen over to LDE and let him play against Pears. He might finish with 4 sacks and one dead Cutler.

WTF are you talking about?

We brought in Meadows and Harris to compete at tackle but I suppose it's Shanahan's fault that they got injured right?

Pears has been ok considering it's the first time he's started at RT.

Geez, gimme a ******* break.

[cutthemdown]

It's not the system, it's lack of talent. Meyer's, Kuper, Holland, Pears just not that good. Lepsis doesn't seem the same anymore since last yrs injury.

Broncos need more talent not a new scheme IMO.

[elsid13]

You know what the worst part of it is?

We don't even use primary zone blocking system in our pass protection. But yeah let's get rid of it because the pass blocking was bad for one game when we were forced to air it out.
:rofl:

When did this place every allow logic or reason to rule, when irrational mob demands are so much more fun???

[fontaine]

When did this place every allow logic or reason to rule, when irrational mob demands are so much more fun???

A couple of weeks ago, the same people were swinging from the OL's nuts because they did a solid job with Myers, Kuper in the interior.

And now all of a sudden it's, "Oh wait you mean to tell me young players playing for the first time together in a unit that absolutely demands experience and continuity as the foundation of it's success aren't going to turn into studs overnite?"

Waaaaaaaaaah!!

http://www.225.ca/ivan/nov03/crybaby.jpg

[toad]

I see the need for bigger lineman....maybe not NFL-average big, but bigger than the sub-300 line we've had for years (although, I suppose w/ injuries we now have 2 300lb guys in there).

Just seems like we can't push people around in the running game and at the goal-line like we used to.

[eddie mac]

You know what the worst part of it is?

We don't even use primary zone blocking system in our pass protection. But yeah let's get rid of it because the pass blocking was bad for one game when we were forced to air it out.
:rofl:

So you're more than happy with an O-Line that hasn't been able to get any footing inside the 5 yard line for god knows how many seasons??? This just isn't about pass-blocking. It's also about lack of execution and push when it matters. Yes in the damn redzone. There's a reason why this team (Yes a run orientated offense) has scored only 3 TD's on the ground this year. I realise the backs are part of it but I just dont have any faith in the current crop getting it done where it matters.

[fontaine]

So you're more than happy with an O-Line that hasn't been able to get any footing inside the 5 yard line for god knows how many seasons??? This just isn't about pass-blocking. It's also about lack of execution and push when it matters. Yes in the damn redzone. There's a reason why this team (Yes a run orientated offense) has scored only 3 TD's on the ground this year. I realise the backs are part of it but I just dont have any faith in the current crop getting it done where it matters.

Firstly, you're completely wrong about the pass blocking and zone system because we go man to man blocking (like every team) when it comes to obvious passing downs.

Secondly, who the hell said I was happy about lack of redzone execution? And who the hell thinks that's on OL alone. That's everyone from your skill position players to RBs to TEs and OL. You think Cutler and Marshall misfiring in the end zone against GB last week is on the OL too?

And on that count we're missing Rod/Walker, Nalen, Hamilton and have a brand new right side this year. Who in world is dumb enough to think they wouldn't go through growing pains?

Anyone remember the last time we had this much turnover at the OL under Shanahan? I don't.

But yeah, go ahead and make a judgement call on Myers, Kuper, Pears etc based on one poor game. Hell why give these young guys a chance to grow when armchair coaches already believe they're not good enough?

These guys have barely played half a season but according to our orange mane scouts Pears, Kuper, Chris aren't good enough.

Some one go tell Mike that he needs to fire his scouting staff and start reading the 'mane instead on how to correctly gauge OL talent from the local ****wits here.

[eddie mac]

Firstly, you're completely wrong about the pass blocking and zone system because we go man to man blocking (like every team) when it comes to obvious passing downs.

Secondly, who the hell said I was happy about lack of redzone execution? And who the hell thinks that's on OL alone. That's everyone from your skill position players to RBs to TEs and OL. You think Cutler and Marshall misfiring in the end zone against GB last week is on the OL too?

And on that count we're missing Rod/Walker, Nalen, Hamilton and have a brand new right side this year. Who in world is dumb enough to think they wouldn't go through growing pains?

Anyone remember the last time we had this much turnover at the OL under Shanahan? I don't.

But yeah, go ahead and make a judgement call on Myers, Kuper, Pears etc based on one poor game. Hell why give these young guys a chance to grow when armchair coaches already believe they're not good enough?

These guys have barely played half a season but according to our orange mane scouts Pears, Kuper, Chris aren't good enough.

Some one go tell Mike that he needs to fire his scouting staff and start reading the 'mane instead on how to correctly gauge OL talent from the local ****wits here.

1. You're having a laugh with that.

2. Redzone problems have long been an issue in Denver even when all 4 injured players you've mentioned have been fit and available. Read my post again. I stated that running the ball inside the 5 has been a major problem possibly since Mike Anderson was here, that in turn makes scoring more difficult because the D knows we cant run it in there.

3. And this is another reason why the Mane has become the classless site it has.

[fontaine]

1. You're having a laugh with that.

2. Redzone problems have long been an issue in Denver even when all 4 injured players you've mentioned have been fit and available. Read my post again. I stated that running the ball inside the 5 has been a major problem possibly since Mike Anderson was here, that in turn makes scoring more difficult because the D knows we cant run it in there.

3. And this is another reason why the Mane has become the classless site it has.

Red zone issues have also been around since Gary Kubiak was here, since Plummer, and so on. What does that have to do with playing backups on the OL?

You can't judge a system when you're playing with backups and guys playing out of position.

And you're flat out wrong about our short yardage power running game when Anderson was here. In 2005 with a healthy OL full of starters, Mike Anderson was one of the best RBs in short yardage and with Plummer playing well we were one of the best teams in the league in power running.

As far as classless goes. Yeah I'm right with you on that one.

We've got posters who flip flop from week to week like drama queens whenever this team faces any adversity what so ever. This week it's people calling out Kuper/Myers in the OL. Never mind the fact that they're playing out of position and actually have talent to be very good in this league, but just need the consistency that comes with experience.

[kupesdad]

Boy! Tough Crowd. I totally agree that the team should write off the whole OL that combined have 12 years experience as starters. Of course 8 of those 12 years by one player. I try not to take this stuff personally but some of the garbage that is written on this site rehashed by the same dimwits over and over is ridiculous. Judging a persons career by 2,5,10,20 games would never have yielded the Elway's, Montana's, and hundreds of other players who were given time to grow and progress to the point of HOF in some cases. How many years did Steve Young play 2nd string? How many of us peaked in our given career in year 2? Although I'm sure that a few of you had "Would you like to Supersize that" down in a few years. Of course those folks would have to be considered prodigies. RELAX....adjustments will have to be made and if those adjustments mean that competition costs my kid his job, so be it. I think there are much larger concerns with this team than the O-Line. Right now there is a huge chemistry problem with more than a couple of players are cancerous. THIS IS STRICTLY MY OPINION AND NOT BASED ON ANYTHING I HAVE DISCUSSED WITH MY SON. It mustbe really tough for the guys that watch their alleged favorite team looking to bash anyone or anything to enjoy the game. Maybe I'm naive but after playing the game for 23 years, coaching for 26 years and watching for 41 years i still can sit down and just enjoy it without second guessing, criticizing, and being hateful. Hands down it is the most exciting sport to play, watch, coach and just be associated with than any other sport I have attempted. I am new to "Bronco's Country" but I am proud to cheer for this team because with a few exceptions it has one of the greatest fan base of any other Pro sport. GO BRONCOS!!!!

Edited due to the fact that I am a dumba$$

[eddie mac]

Red zone issues have also been around since Gary Kubiak was here, since Plummer, and so on. What does that have to do with playing backups on the OL?

You can't judge a system when you're playing with backups and guys playing out of position.

And you're flat out wrong about our short yardage power running game when Anderson was here. In 2005 with a healthy OL full of starters, Mike Anderson was one of the best RBs in short yardage and with Plummer playing well we were one of the best teams in the league in power running.

As far as classless goes. Yeah I'm right with you on that one.

We've got posters who flip flop from week to week like drama queens whenever this team faces any adversity what so ever. This week it's people calling out Kuper/Myers in the OL. Never mind the fact that they're playing out of position and actually have talent to be very good in this league, but just need the consistency that comes with experience.

You've misread me on that one. I meant we've been pityful since Anderson left. Both Anderson and Droughns had no problems putting the ball in the endzone. Mike had 12 rushing TD's in 05.

[bloodsunday]

no, but lotsa teams run zone blocking w/ good pass blockers as well. pats, colts, raiders, vikings(other ppl can fill in the rest) all zone block.

we just can't make zone blocking our gimmick.

EXACTLY! Winner, winner...

We throw the term system out as though that means we can afford to use cast-offs, low round picks, etc... A system may work and hide flaws that way, but it can always be better with better talent. This system was fine when we had perennial Pro-Bowlers executing it (Nalen, Jones, Zimmerman, Stink, and Habib -- that's an OL) .

[fontaine]

You've misread me on that one. I meant we've been pityful since Anderson left. Both Anderson and Droughns had no problems putting the ball in the endzone. Mike had 12 rushing TD's in 05.

So what's the big difference in 2005 and now?

Like I said, that year, we had guys along the OL that had played together for a while like Coop/Nails/Hamilton/Lepsis and Foster doing ok on the right side. But more than that, Plummer was doing great while we had a decent passing game.

We've got none of the consistency now. Not in the passing game with WRs/QB, or with our RBs.

That's not on the system but on the players executing it.

[Garcia Bronco]

Plummer couldn't throw from the pocket because he couldn't throw. Darryl Hackney can throw from the pocket because Hackney can throw. What is he? All of six foot?

Hackney is an inaccurate passer at best. Bottom line....QB's can't see down the field anymore at 6 foot. Guys that are 6.4 and up have a much better time of it.

[RaiderH8r]

The bottom line is that we've been spoiled with our big uglies for awhile now and it's time to start breaking in a new crop. Nails is great, one of my all time favorites but nobody outruns father time. I don't think the Detroit game was indicative of the talent level of our guys, in short, they had a bad game. They played well against a stout Pittsburgh D and it's going to take awhile before that kind of performance becomes their standard. The OL is a unit and when ours was at its best they moved as a single entity, each knowing exactly what the other was doing. Really, it was a thing of beauty. It takes more than physicality to accomplish that. I'm confident that Nalen's instruction is going to do wonders for these guys as they get more and more game reps. Nalen is a hall of famer, anybody who says different is a glue sniffing cock jockey. He's the anchor and his intelligence, ability, and leadership aren't easy to replace. Let's face it, for years Denver's been reloading and now we finally have a time when we have to rebuild. I hate to admit it, but it's time for a little growing pain. I hate you Kirk Cameron!

We are seeing glimpses of things to come. Every time Selvin gets the ball I think he's a threat, his growth and development will be interesting to watch. Cutler, well that's been well covered. I think Scheff is an honest to god star in the making if given the opportunity. His blocking is his big knock but man he and Cutler have a connection. Marcus Thomas, Dumervil, Moss, we have a lot of youth. Myers, Kuper, Harris, are all part of that development process that has to happen.

[Mediator12]

Boy! Tough Crowd. I totally agree that the team should write off the whole OL that combined have 12 years experience as starters. Of course 8 of those 12 years by one player. I try not to take this stuff personally but some of the garbage that is written on this site rehashed by the same dimwits over and over is ridiculous. Judging a persons career by 2,5,10,20 games would never have yielded the Elway's, Montana's, and hundreds of other players who were given time to grow and progress to the point of HOF in some cases. How many years did Steve Young play 2nd string? How many of us peaked in our given career in year 2? Although I'm sure that a few of you had "Would you like to Supersize that" down in a few years. Of course those folks would have to be considered prodigies. RELAX....adjustments will have to be made and if those adjustments mean that competition costs my kid his job, so be it. I think there are much larger concerns with this team than the O-Line. Right now there is a huge chemistry problem with more than a couple of players are cancerous. THIS IS STRICTLY MY OPINION AND NOT BASED ON ANYTHING I HAVE DISCUSSED WITH MY SON. It mustbe really tough for the guys that watch their alleged favorite team looking to bash anyone or anything to enjoy the game. Maybe I'm naive but after playing the game for 23 years, coaching for 26 years and watching for 41 years i still can sit down and just enjoy it without second guessing, criticizing, and being hateful. Hands down it is the most exciting sport to play, watch, coach and just be associated with than any other sport I have attempted. I am new to "Bronco's Country" but I am proud to cheer for this team because with a few exceptions it has one of the greatest fan base of any other Pro sport. GO BRONCOS!!!!

Edited due to the fact that I am a dumba$$

I appreciate your patience while others are trying to assault your son and the other young guys as they try to get up to speed in the NFL in one of the most complicated OL scheme's out there. Thank you for your input as well.

One thing I would ask, What are your thoughts on the protections DEN is using under Heimerdinger. I have noticed they have differed from when Kubiak was here, but OL is probably my weakest position of Knowledge. bpc is very knowledgable about those things and his comments are concerning to me for the future as relates to protecting Jay.

[Rohirrim]

I'll tell you the one thing that really sank my stomach more than any other this season. That's when I heard that Nalen was out for the year. Look back to the last time that happened when Jake was QB. The team went into the toilet. Some people are just the glue that holds it all together. On the Broncos offense, that glue was Nalen. On the D, it was Al Wilson. Both are gone. I really can't imagine Tom coming back, but who knows. Replacing these veteran voices is going to be tough.

[eddie mac]

I'll tell you the one thing that really sank my stomach more than any other this season. That's when I heard that Nalen was out for the year. Look back to the last time that happened when Jake was QB. The team went into the toilet. Some people are just the glue that holds it all together. On the Broncos offense, that glue was Nalen. On the D, it was Al Wilson. Both are gone. I really can't imagine Tom coming back, but who knows. Replacing these veteran voices is going to be tough.

I agree with that Roh and it was rumoured that Ben Hamilton was the heir apparent to Tom. What on earth are we going to be like for the next few seasons if both dont come back next year???

[Eldorado]

Boy! Tough Crowd. I totally agree that the team should write off the whole OL that combined have 12 years experience as starters. Of course 8 of those 12 years by one player. I try not to take this stuff personally but some of the garbage that is written on this site rehashed by the same dimwits over and over is ridiculous. Judging a persons career by 2,5,10,20 games would never have yielded the Elway's, Montana's, and hundreds of other players who were given time to grow and progress to the point of HOF in some cases. How many years did Steve Young play 2nd string? How many of us peaked in our given career in year 2? Although I'm sure that a few of you had "Would you like to Supersize that" down in a few years. Of course those folks would have to be considered prodigies. RELAX....adjustments will have to be made and if those adjustments mean that competition costs my kid his job, so be it. I think there are much larger concerns with this team than the O-Line. Right now there is a huge chemistry problem with more than a couple of players are cancerous. THIS IS STRICTLY MY OPINION AND NOT BASED ON ANYTHING I HAVE DISCUSSED WITH MY SON. It mustbe really tough for the guys that watch their alleged favorite team looking to bash anyone or anything to enjoy the game. Maybe I'm naive but after playing the game for 23 years, coaching for 26 years and watching for 41 years i still can sit down and just enjoy it without second guessing, criticizing, and being hateful. Hands down it is the most exciting sport to play, watch, coach and just be associated with than any other sport I have attempted. I am new to "Bronco's Country" but I am proud to cheer for this team because with a few exceptions it has one of the greatest fan base of any other Pro sport. GO BRONCOS!!!!

Edited due to the fact that I am a dumba$$

Dude, I love this guy! Screw-em, kupesdad. Don't let em get you down. Shanny is putting together a new team and this is the begining. Its probably gonna take a few seasons to get all the parts together and tuned properly. I watch every week b/c one of these days this O is gonna put on a 60 min show. It may not happen this year, but then again, it might and I can't wait! I think the D is a little further out. w/o the injuries to the D-line, we might have seen some glimpses this year, but there is nothing that can be done about that now. Keep the faith!

[alkemical]

Boy! Tough Crowd. I totally agree that the team should write off the whole OL that combined have 12 years experience as starters. Of course 8 of those 12 years by one player. I try not to take this stuff personally but some of the garbage that is written on this site rehashed by the same dimwits over and over is ridiculous. Judging a persons career by 2,5,10,20 games would never have yielded the Elway's, Montana's, and hundreds of other players who were given time to grow and progress to the point of HOF in some cases. How many years did Steve Young play 2nd string? How many of us peaked in our given career in year 2? Although I'm sure that a few of you had "Would you like to Supersize that" down in a few years. Of course those folks would have to be considered prodigies. RELAX....adjustments will have to be made and if those adjustments mean that competition costs my kid his job, so be it. I think there are much larger concerns with this team than the O-Line. Right now there is a huge chemistry problem with more than a couple of players are cancerous. THIS IS STRICTLY MY OPINION AND NOT BASED ON ANYTHING I HAVE DISCUSSED WITH MY SON. It mustbe really tough for the guys that watch their alleged favorite team looking to bash anyone or anything to enjoy the game. Maybe I'm naive but after playing the game for 23 years, coaching for 26 years and watching for 41 years i still can sit down and just enjoy it without second guessing, criticizing, and being hateful. Hands down it is the most exciting sport to play, watch, coach and just be associated with than any other sport I have attempted. I am new to "Bronco's Country" but I am proud to cheer for this team because with a few exceptions it has one of the greatest fan base of any other Pro sport. GO BRONCOS!!!!

Edited due to the fact that I am a dumba$$

so what are some good examples of the chemistry problems....

[Jason in LA]

Changing the system is not the answer. The system has been great for years. One bad year and people want to scrap the whole thing? Kind of silly to me.

[62Olinesdad]

Firstly, you're completely wrong about the pass blocking and zone system because we go man to man blocking (like every team) when it comes to obvious passing downs.

Secondly, who the hell said I was happy about lack of redzone execution? And who the hell thinks that's on OL alone. That's everyone from your skill position players to RBs to TEs and OL. You think Cutler and Marshall misfiring in the end zone against GB last week is on the OL too?

And on that count we're missing Rod/Walker, Nalen, Hamilton and have a brand new right side this year. Who in world is dumb enough to think they wouldn't go through growing pains?

Anyone remember the last time we had this much turnover at the OL under Shanahan? I don't.

But yeah, go ahead and make a judgement call on Myers, Kuper, Pears etc based on one poor game. Hell why give these young guys a chance to grow when armchair coaches already believe they're not good enough?

These guys have barely played half a season but according to our orange mane scouts Pears, Kuper, Chris aren't good enough.

Some one go tell Mike that he needs to fire his scouting staff and start reading the 'mane instead on how to correctly gauge OL talent from the local ****wits here.

Could not have said it any better. Thanks for beating me to it.

[BigPlayShay]

I'll tell you the one thing that really sank my stomach more than any other this season. That's when I heard that Nalen was out for the year. Look back to the last time that happened when Jake was QB. The team went into the toilet. Some people are just the glue that holds it all together. On the Broncos offense, that glue was Nalen. On the D, it was Al Wilson. Both are gone. I really can't imagine Tom coming back, but who knows. Replacing these veteran voices is going to be tough.

uhhhhh, the last time Tom went down Griese/Beuerlein was the QB (2002)

[Garcia Bronco]

Yeah Dads,

Don't let these folks scare you off. They're just frustrated because they want the team to win.

[footstepsfrom#27]

With Tom Nalen possibly calling it a career after this season and Ben Hamilton's future unknown we'll basically be going into next season with the current O-Line plus whatever additions we make.

The running-back situation is just as cloudy with Mr Smoked my brains out on the verge of a 1 year ban and if so then a 1 way ticket out of Denver.

My point is given our very average running game this season and poor pass protection is it time to go in a different direction with more focus on protecting Cutler and introducing the more successful NFL game of power running by bringing bigger linemen a proper FB and a bigger RB into the team???

I realise a change like this couldn't be fully operational within one season but in hindsight if Cutler is the future of the Broncos at some point we have to build a line that isn't going to get him killed in every game. Plus we need a line than can create running lanes for the backs and give RB's a chance inside the 5 yard line.

This current line doesn't and I dont think it's powerful enough to ever do so.

There's a reason why this team is one of the worst inside the redzone in the NFL. Part of it is the playcalling but the majority of it is the line being blown apart by the opposition.

It would take a lot of guts to change the system because it has been so successful here for years but I haven't seen much out of it in the last 2-3 seasons, we'll not since we had Mike Anderson here so is the way forward to change it or do we continue with the faster tiny tots who give Jay about 3 seconds to throw the ball???
Change the system? Duh. I've been saying this for two years but nobody's been listening till now. Nice to see some are finally seeing the light. It's simple physics...you can't block 340 pounders that are just as quick as our liliputian linemen with 285 pound guys. They also get worn down late in the game when we need them most.

All good things must come to an end, and it's time for this thing to go. We no longer have a unique system that teams rearely see. Half a dozen other teams run this system now. Teams prepare for it better, and we also don't get exclusive rights to the appropriate talent pool late in the draft like we used to since the other zone blocking teams are looking for the same kind of guys we are.

The solution is simple. Spend the next two drafts on beef in the O-line and find a true franchise runner that can carry the load rather than another free agent plug 'n play system back or somebody elses problem children. We can't control the point of attack with this line and we can't protect Cutler nearly well enough.

The sooner we start the sooner we'll be glad we did.

[DenverBrit]

give me a break.....this team needs better players, period

Exactly!
Too many years of low draft picks and the signing of over-the-hill FA's to try and fix the talent gap.
Eventually, a decade or more of picking near the bottom catches up and here we are.
Do we want Denver to make a big second half run, or not win another game? A top ten draft is at stake. :wiggle: