View Full Version : Alfie Williams is tearing up the Broncos!
He's tear'n into the fullback position and the Sapp wants to be a running back and not a fullback.
He doesn't want to hit people in the mouth!
Kyle Johnson anyone?
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Now he's saying Matt Millen has put together a better team than Shanny!
Wow now Alfie is busting on the Draft mastermind!
Alfie say's we need a better player personel aka GM. He wants Shanny to stay has headcoach.
Only problem is Coach is both...
Broncos need to draft the best player available!
Drafting for need position has hurt this team.
Broncoman13
11-05-2007, 03:17 PM
I agree with every single point he's made so far... Shanny will never give up his power. Bowlen tries to take that and Shanny will leave. Too bad, it seems to have helped Holmgren... at least a little bit.
I agree with every single point he's made so far... Shanny will never give up his power. Bowlen tries to take that and Shanny will leave. Too bad, it seems to have helped Holmgren... at least a little bit.
Ya I just sent an email to them stating that the problem is that Shanny has too much power and trying to take that away from him is nearly impossible.
NFLBRONCO
11-05-2007, 03:48 PM
Shanny needs McFadden because Shanny's system is ordinary not high powered type O. Our best years was when we had a 2000 yd big play RB.
~Crash~
11-05-2007, 04:04 PM
Shanny needs McFadden because Shanny's system is ordinary not high powered type O. Our best years was when we had a 2000 yd big play RB.
LOL that could be said about 31 other NFL teams !:strong:
opps mini dont need him
missingnumber7
11-05-2007, 04:09 PM
He's tear'n into the fullback position and the Sapp wants to be a running back and not a fullback.
He doesn't want to hit people in the mouth!
Kyle Johnson anyone?
-----
Now he's saying Matt Millen has put together a better team than Shanny!
Wow now Alfie is busting on the Draft mastermind!
Kyle would be a great help right about now.
Pass catching threat out of the backfield.
Extra proven blocking back outta the backfield.
Experience.
Experience.
Experience.
Kyle was a true fullback. Cecil is a running back.
Shanny always tries to take the sqaure peg and force it into the round hole.
------------
Alfie just quoted a stat that blows my mind!
Over the last 5 years Denver has kept 13% of their draft selections. Steelers and Colts are around 30%
Denver doesn't draft well, Shanny doesn't draft well.
defenseman
11-05-2007, 04:16 PM
I agree with every single point he's made so far... Shanny will never give up his power. Bowlen tries to take that and Shanny will leave. Too bad, it seems to have helped Holmgren... at least a little bit.
Give it up shanny. Or you will meet your waterloo.....dman
defenseman
11-05-2007, 04:18 PM
Shanny needs McFadden because Shanny's system is ordinary not high powered type O. Our best years was when we had a 2000 yd big play RB.
Shanny, needs to get a clue first. Then he can worry about the McFadden's of the world. What good is talent if you can't identify it, let alone understand how to use it. I'm not so sure he has a good grasp on either right now...dman
orinjkrush
11-05-2007, 04:19 PM
Kyle was a true fullback. Cecil is a running back.
Shanny always tries to take the sqaure peg and force it into the round hole.
------------
Alfie just quoted a stat that blows my mind!
Over the last 5 years Denver has kept 13% of their draft selections. Steelers and Colts are around 30%
Denver doesn't draft well, Shanny doesn't draft well.
some of us been saying that for some time now
Atwater His Ass
11-05-2007, 04:23 PM
I still believe in Shannahan the head coach. I don't belive in Shannahan the GM. The problem, as outlined above, is how to remove his GM powers but keep him around as HC.
Cito Pelon
11-05-2007, 04:25 PM
Broncos need to draft the best player available!
Drafting for need position has hurt this team.
Yup. I think a BAP philosophy concentrating on a range of positions is the best philosophy. I was shocked to see Shanny say a few weeks ago "You have to expect your draft choices to start right away nowadays. Three years ago, you wouldn't have thought that way."
What an idiot.
Natedogg
11-05-2007, 04:27 PM
Alfie just quoted a stat that blows my mind!
Over the last 5 years Denver has kept 13% of their draft selections. Steelers and Colts are around 30%
Denver doesn't draft well, Shanny doesn't draft well.
he stole that stat from milehighreport.
http://www.milehighreport.com/
scroll to the det den preview.
Breaker
11-05-2007, 04:39 PM
Broncos need to draft the best player available!
Drafting for need position has hurt this team.
Are you serious? What if the best player available is a qb or a cornerback ... you really want to draft one of them? This is way to early to tell if last years draft of the D Line is going to work out long term or not, they have not even played together all that much. Notice how when they did Big Ben was running for his life. The order of the draft should be as follows:
1. Phillip Buchanon S Miami: If we are high enough we take him with the first pick since there simply are not that many quality safeties, or elite defensive backs in general, that are coming out this season. Not only good but smart and picks up things quickly, natural leader which the defense really needs.
2. Middle Linebacker, Best available: Deepest linebacker class in the last twenty years all told. No fewer than about 6 possible first rounders, then the second tier guys like Dizon, etc.
3. MLB
4. Safety
5. OL.
Some Free Agents to consider:
Alan Faneca, Guard UFA, Pittsburgh Steelers
Ryan Lilja, Guard, UFA, Indianapolis Colts
Jared Allen, DE Chiefs
Are you serious? What if the best player available is a qb or a cornerback ... you really want to draft one of them? This is way to early to tell if last years draft of the D Line is going to work out long term or not, they have not even played together all that much. Notice how when they did Big Ben was running for his life. The order of the draft should be as follows:
1. Phillip Buchanon S Miami: If we are high enough we take him with the first pick since there simply are not that many quality safeties, or elite defensive backs in general, that are coming out this season. Not only good but smart and picks up things quickly, natural leader which the defense really needs.
2. Middle Linebacker, Best available: Deepest linebacker class in the last twenty years all told. No fewer than about 6 possible first rounders, then the second tier guys like Dizon, etc.
3. MLB
4. Safety
5. OL.
Some Free Agents to consider:
Alan Faneca, Guard UFA, Pittsburgh Steelers
Ryan Lilja, Guard, UFA, Indianapolis Colts
Jared Allen, DE Chiefs
I talked to Alan during camp (When he was pissed about his contract) and said any chance you would go to Denver?
He said they would be at the top of his list. I joked "As long as the money is right... right" Fanny just smiled.
Ray Finkle
11-05-2007, 04:53 PM
He's tear'n into the fullback position and the Sapp wants to be a running back and not a fullback.
He doesn't want to hit people in the mouth!
Kyle Johnson anyone?
-----
Now he's saying Matt Millen has put together a better team than Shanny!
Wow now Alfie is busting on the Draft mastermind!
we are talking about the same KJ right? The one that was bashed because he couldn't open holes.....
we are talking about the same KJ right? The one that was bashed because he couldn't open holes.....
Ya I know.
Garcia Bronco
11-05-2007, 05:02 PM
We have a GM. His name is Ted Sunquist. I am sick and tired of people talking like they know the dynamics between the two or how the organization works.
Garcia Bronco
11-05-2007, 05:04 PM
we are talking about the same KJ right? The one that was bashed because he couldn't open holes.....
Don't bother Ray....we've got more experts around here than you can shake a stick at.
bronco militia
11-05-2007, 06:58 PM
We have a GM. His name is Ted Sunquist. I am sick and tired of people talking like they know the dynamics between the two or how the organization works.
no doubt...and the team has aquired better talent(not the best) since they hired Ted. This team has a GM and scouting department.
everyone thinks shanny micromanages this team...if this were true, there would be massive changover at the coaching level every year.
Broncos fans: look at the corporation you work for. the chain of command at dove Valley is very similar.
telluride
11-05-2007, 07:08 PM
We have a GM. His name is Ted Sunquist. I am sick and tired of people talking like they know the dynamics between the two or how the organization works.
Garcia, I love your takes on things usually, but you can't possibly believe that Ted makes the final call on players. Shanny is the decider, and thus he's most culpable for the mess were in.
Honestly, Bowlen should try to steal Pioli from the Pats, and then hire a young, hungry, hot shot coordinator to be head coach. Only then will this team move beyond one friggin' playoff win in the past decade.
No1BroncoFan
11-05-2007, 07:33 PM
I still believe in Shannahan the head coach. I don't belive in Shannahan the GM. The problem, as outlined above, is how to remove his GM powers but keep him around as HC.
Real simple.
Bowlen: "Mike, you are no longer GM for this team."
Shanahan: "Pat, can I ask why?"
Bowlen: "Sure. It's become painfully obvious that you can't evaluate defensive talent even if it sacked you for a nine-yard loss."
Shanahan: "Ok pat. My resignation will be on your desk as soon as the season ends"
Bowlen: "I'm sorry you feel that way Mike. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go start evaluating your potential replacements. Take care Mike."
People keep saying that Shanahan can't do anything without Elway, but they don't seem to remember that we damn near had a pro-bowl team from '96-'98. If Shanny can't get it done with less talent than the pro-bowl gets then he needs to pack it up and head for greener pastures. Honestly, I don't think he can.
Ben
theAPAOps5
11-05-2007, 07:45 PM
Shanny also got a team with very little pro bowl talent to the AFC Championship 2 years ago. He did it with no number one back and an average at best QB, talent wise, who played his ass off. Shanny designed plays that complimented what he had. How quick people forget that. But again I think 75% of this site has ADD.
missingnumber7
11-05-2007, 08:00 PM
we are talking about the same KJ right? The one that was bashed because he couldn't open holes.....
What has Cecil done??? I haven't seen anything outta our FB including lead blocking...why not bring KJ back...he wasn't the best FB, but he had experience and knows the system.
gunns
11-05-2007, 11:12 PM
We have a GM. His name is Ted Sunquist. I am sick and tired of people talking like they know the dynamics between the two or how the organization works.
You can't possibly believe that.
As far as not being able to take that power away from Shanahan, is there any other team in the NFL today that would allow him to have that power? He is the big decider and it's starting to seem the bad decisions over the past several years far outweigh the good ones.
rovolution
11-05-2007, 11:18 PM
As far as not being able to take that power away from Shanahan, is there any other team in the NFL today that would allow him to have that power? .
no, but there are college teams that gladly would.
Remember the whole Florida thing a couple of years ago?
gunns
11-05-2007, 11:25 PM
no, but there are college teams that gladly would.
Remember the whole Florida thing a couple of years ago?
Yeah, I thought of that but the need for more quality decisions and a need for more focus on coaching....and getting better coaching at certain positions makes it acceptable. I wonder if Michigan is acceptable to Shanahan?
PRBronco
11-05-2007, 11:32 PM
Our best years was when we had a 2000 yd big play RB.
Water is wet.
PRBronco
11-05-2007, 11:34 PM
What has Cecil done??? I haven't seen anything outta our FB including lead blocking...why not bring KJ back...he wasn't the best FB, but he had experience and knows the system.
Sapp and KJ are just both running backs too slow to win the tailback job, not fullbacks by any stretch of the imagination. Oh how I long for Howard Griffith.
Don't get me wrong, Sapp and KJ are (and were) handy in short yardage on the little dink and dunk passes, but I'd like a battering ram back there.
wolf754life
11-05-2007, 11:59 PM
its not shannahans fault...........its something else, weather, injuries, bad luck, unfortunate circumstances, etc...etc.....
you people make me sick
-Slap-
11-06-2007, 12:24 AM
Now he's saying Matt Millen has put together a better team than Shanny!
Foolproof plan by Millen. Play .250 ball for six years and draft so high it's virtually impossible not to stumble onto a few good players.
Sapp and KJ are just both running backs too slow to win the tailback job, not fullbacks by any stretch of the imagination. Oh how I long for Howard Griffith.
Don't get me wrong, Sapp and KJ are (and were) handy in short yardage on the little dink and dunk passes, but I'd like a battering ram back there.
I agree. I know Sapp is wildly popular for playing at CSU but lets call a spade a spade. We now have 5 RBs and no FBs. Why do we settle like this? I get sick of having a running game that runs on bare bones in terms of personnel. Its some crazy backwards approach of ours to take what is a strength of ours (ie running the football) and we try to get away with making it work with as little talent as is possible. The rest of the world is plugged into the idea of identifying what you do well and be the best at it...but not the Broncos.
What we do to our running game is like putting crap tires on an expensive sportscar...we choose to make it good when we could make it great.
WABronco
11-06-2007, 12:35 AM
he stole that stat from milehighreport.
http://www.milehighreport.com/
scroll to the det den preview.
That he did.
Guru gets the credit.
BroncsRule
11-06-2007, 01:06 AM
..He is the big decider and it's starting to seem the bad decisions over the past several years far outweigh the good ones.
So.. It's all Shanny's fault. Is that the way this board is rolling?
Pray tell, please elaborate: Just exactly which "bad decisions" are you refering to? This year? OK - Rice was a reach. But he also signed for at or near vet min. - Sam Adams has underperformed.
But I still like the draft class.
Dan Graham is doing his job - unglamerous as it is.
Der Bly is doing OK - he's gotten burned - all CB's get burned. Including Champ.
Travis Henry is a dumbass - and you could argue Shanny should have seen that coming. Perhaps. But if he was just a little bit less of a dumbass, we have a very productive running back, there.
The vast majority of this team's ills are injury related:
Darrent Williams
Al Wilson
Rod Smith
Javon Walker
Ebeneezer Eckuban
Jarvis Moss
Tommy Nalen
And a host of second tier players.
Add in temporary losses of:
Champ Bailey
Johnny Lynch
Jay Cutler
Matt Lepsis
This team is snakebit. Not Shanny's fault.
Shanny did a masterful coaching job, getting this bunch to bounce back from the SD thrashing, to play hard & beat a very good Steelers team.
Can he do it again? We'll soon see. We need this road win vs. KC - and we can do it - we're still a better football team that they are.
But to actually pull it off? After yet another soul wrenching ass kicking??
If Shanny can pull this off - wow. Just, wow.
gunns
11-06-2007, 02:55 AM
So.. It's all Shanny's fault. Is that the way this board is rolling?
Pray tell, please elaborate: Just exactly which "bad decisions" are you refering to? This year? OK - Rice was a reach. But he also signed for at or near vet min. - Sam Adams has underperformed.
But I still like the draft class.
Dan Graham is doing his job - unglamerous as it is.
Der Bly is doing OK - he's gotten burned - all CB's get burned. Including Champ.
Travis Henry is a dumbass - and you could argue Shanny should have seen that coming. Perhaps. But if he was just a little bit less of a dumbass, we have a very productive running back, there.
The vast majority of this team's ills are injury related:
Darrent Williams
Al Wilson
Rod Smith
Javon Walker
Ebeneezer Eckuban
Jarvis Moss
Tommy Nalen
And a host of second tier players.
Add in temporary losses of:
Champ Bailey
Johnny Lynch
Jay Cutler
Matt Lepsis
This team is snakebit. Not Shanny's fault.
Shanny did a masterful coaching job, getting this bunch to bounce back from the SD thrashing, to play hard & beat a very good Steelers team.
Can he do it again? We'll soon see. We need this road win vs. KC - and we can do it - we're still a better football team that they are.
But to actually pull it off? After yet another soul wrenching ass kicking??
If Shanny can pull this off - wow. Just, wow.
I, for one, am not putting all the blame on Shanahan. But he takes a big part as the one making the decisions. We keep 13% of our draft picks? That's telling And what would you call the job done yesterday? Oh yeah, injuries. I'll agree they've had a definitive effect but this team was looking suspect before some went out.
Bad decisions? I know that we can all come up with some very good decisions but these are just some that come immediately to mind and make me believe there are enough to warrant a true GM:
Browncos
Ashlie Lelie
Willie Roaf
Adalius Thomas
Daryl Gardner
Maurice Clarett
Heimerdinger
Slowik, any Cleveland coach
DJ moved from weak to strong to middle
George Foster
Paul Toviessi
Denard Walker
Kenoy Kennedy
Willie Middlebrooks
Deltha O'Neal
Leon Lett
Safeties: Izell Reese, Lee Flowers, Ignoring the position
Lionel Dalton
Ephraim Saalam
Marco Coleman
Terry Pierce
Bradlee Van Pelt
Aaron Hunt
Clint Mitchell
Lenny Walls
Garrison Hearst
Darius Watts
Dorsett Davis
Kavika Pittman
Travis Taylor
SoCalBronco
11-06-2007, 03:23 AM
We keep 13% of our draft picks? That's telling
I feel the need to defend our draft record, because it is something worth defending. It is, by and large, a very solid, albeit not completely spectacular record (We are not Baltimore, to be sure). It is something that there are alot of misconceptions and misinformation about. I'm not an apologist for the FO, but they get alot of undeserved flak about this particular issue. Alot of us tend to think about the high profile busts we have had in the draft and that leads many to conclude that the Broncos "just can't draft", as if it is a serious problem or something. This is, ofcourse, a complete canard.
We like to mistakenly engage in alot of histrionics and feverish hyperbole on this issue, instead of looking at the actual history and record in a levelheaded way.
One of the things that bothers me, is this thoroughly flawed method of analysis that focuses on "how many of our draftees are still on the team". This reaks of intellectual laziness and is an extremely inaccurate measure as it results in a gross undercounting of our successes. For example, this type of view unfairly excludes at least three types of players that can be rationally characterized as successful picks even though they are not on the roster:
1. Players who served us generally well for a fairly decent period of time, who simply left during FA when they recieved a better offer. Kennedy and Hayward are prime examples of this.
2. Players who served us generally well for a fairly decent period of time, who were traded, thereby giving the team a substantial long term benefit directly traceable to them, in addition to the (at least) solid service they provided to the team. Portis is the clear example here, but other examples would be Lelie and T. Bell, two figures unfairly maligned by many fans, but whose legacies are much more positive than most people would give them credit for, in my opinion. Both players were solid (and at times quite explosive) starters who provided a good benefit across several years to this team despite significant flaws in their game. They also left the Broncos with an enduring benefit, either in the form of multiple useful draft choices (Lelie) or a single outstanding starter from another club (Bell).
3. Players who served us generally well for a fairly decent period of time (especially in relation to the round in which they were picked), who were eventually let go due to injury or salary issues. The key examples here would be Anderson, Brandon and Putzier. None of these folks are on the roster, but each was an important contributor in his own right, and it reflects well on the organization that they were able to find them in the depths of the draft.
This myth of a "Draft Crisis" is also furthered by the abject failure known as the 2003 draft, where we inexplicably batted 0 for 10. This abortion of a performance is an outlier, not the norm. A quick perusal of our drafts this century, excluding this particular draft and 2007 (as it is too early to make a real analysis of that class) reveals the following:
2000: Three solid starters, a very good haul.
2001: Two solid starters, a respectable haul.
2002: An outstanding starter (later traded away for a King's ransom), a solid starter (later traded away for multiple, useful draft choices), and two important contributors. An outstanding haul.
2004: Two solid starters (one of whom traded away for a very substantial benefit) from the draft and two other serviceable starters from the UDFA round. That's a good, solid haul.
2005: One starter, and three important contributors (one of whom is currently acting as a starter in an emergency and not doing that bad, despite a poor game at DET). Certainly not worse than average.
2006: A Franchise QB, a pick traded for an outstanding starter, a very important contributor and essentially co-starter, and three other very promising starters. A jackpot, literally.
This is a good record, at the very least, a decent record (especially in light of our rather disadvantageous drafting position usually), certainly not worthy of all the hand wringing and crying and b****ing and drama. A record not without its blemishes to be sure, but also a record that can't be fully understood or appreciated by the mere perusal of our current roster and counting of picks that still remain. What we need to measure is the entirety of the benefit each pick gave us, whether they are still here or not.
BroncoSoja
11-06-2007, 05:03 AM
Kyle was a true fullback. Cecil is a running back.
Shanny always tries to take the sqaure peg and force it into the round hole.
------------
Alfie just quoted a stat that blows my mind!
Over the last 5 years Denver has kept 13% of their draft selections. Steelers and Colts are around 30%
Denver doesn't draft well, Shanny doesn't draft well.
Another gem that will go into the sig.. Shanny its time for you to hit the road.
BroncoSoja
11-06-2007, 05:11 AM
Bad decisions? I know that we can all come up with some very good decisions but these are just some that come immediately to mind and make me believe there are enough to warrant a true GM:
Maurice Clarett
This one pissed me off the most probably.. Just think we could have had BRANDON JACOBS or MARION BARBER(who were both drafted a few picks behind Clarett), but instead we choose to draft a guy that had all types of problems with the law and everyone in the world knew was a loser...
Shanny needs to hit the road, im sick of him and his foolish decisions.
elsid13
11-06-2007, 06:03 AM
So Bobby Turner tells Shanahan that really wants MoC and that the kid turned his life around and now it Shanahan's fault? Sometimes the people that work for you lead you to wrong decision.
Shanahan is the final decision maker but he dependent on those working for him for good results. I think he recognized the need for improve C2 when inserted Sandsprit (or whatever his name is) into the GM three years ago.
fontaine
11-06-2007, 06:11 AM
[/B]Garcia, I love your takes on things usually, but you can't possibly believe that Ted makes the final call on players. Shanny is the decider, and thus he's most culpable for the mess were in.
Seriously, you don't know WTF you're talking about.
You think Shanahan went after the Browncos all on his own? He consulted with Coyer and then Patterson who endorsed them. Patterson said so openly to the media.
Same with Bates. We didn't go after Grady Jackson because both Slowik and Bates had plenty of experience with him and they had the input on it. You think we did a 180 from targetting fast athletic DL to fat blobs in offseason all because Shanahan decided it? It was to do with the scheme and players Bates wanted, not just Mike.
Most GMs around the league ARE NOT pure talent scouts. They are cap managers. You need a good eye for talent from all of your coaches. Just because Shanahan may have veto power doesn't mean he shuts himself in a room and decides on every single player to bring in or not all by himself.
chrisp
11-06-2007, 08:56 AM
[/B]
Seriously, you don't know WTF you're talking about.
You think Shanahan went after the Browncos all on his own? He consulted with Coyer and then Patterson who endorsed them. Patterson said so openly to the media.
Same with Bates. We didn't go after Grady Jackson because both Slowik and Bates had plenty of experience with him and they had the input on it. You think we did a 180 from targetting fast athletic DL to fat blobs in offseason all because Shanahan decided it? It was to do with the scheme and players Bates wanted, not just Mike.
Most GMs around the league ARE NOT pure talent scouts. They are cap managers. You need a good eye for talent from all of your coaches. Just because Shanahan may have veto power doesn't mean he shuts himself in a room and decides on every single player to bring in or not all by himself.
Couldn't agree more!
I can't believe the garbage that some people are coming up with on this issue.
Every single team in the NFL has one head coach and one general manager. In some cases, the GM has ultimate authority and in others its the HC. Denver falls into the latter category.
But in every team allof the position coaches are asked to review the personnel at their specific position and provide ratings and reccomendations.
In every team these get discussed and debated over and over again by all the staff in the weeks leading up to the draft. Same goes for free agency.
The only difference in our setup is that if there is ever a disagreement between HC and GM, the HC (Shanny) wins. In other organisations the GM wins.
Most of the time, however, the staff is debating the issue and trying to reach a consensus.
Honestly, Shanny can do nothing right for some people: if he takes responsibility for a bad decision then hes "a megalomaniac who needs to have less power", but if he gives his assistant credit then he's "finding a scapegoat".
Honestly, would quality coaches like Bobby Turner have stayed around so long if Shanny was the type of egomaniac that never listened to his assistants or who never allowed them a say?
Do you think our old O-line coach, the notoriously fiery and opinionated Gibbs, would have hung around if his suggestions and ideas were quashed at every turn?
I'm not suggesting that Shanny doesn't have an ego, and I'm not suggesting he's perfect, but NOBODY runs an NFL team like a medieval court...
So, instead of saying that "Bowlen should hire a GM" what you should actually be saying is "Sundquist should have the authority to override Shanhan" becuase that's what that option amounts to in reality.
I would also like to say that before this season started almost everybody on this board was agreed that whilst the drafts of 3-4 years ago or just before were a complete horrorshow, the last 2-3 years have been quite promising.
I'd also like to point out that whilst this is fast becoming one of the worst seasons in living memory (1992 anyone?) its promising young players like Marshall, Cutler Dumervil and Scheffler that remain the lone bright spots in an othrwise depressing situation.
So suddenly ALL our drafts suck and Shanny should reliquish hs say in all personnel matters? Jeez, you guys are about 5 years out of date....
Rohirrim
11-06-2007, 09:40 AM
Bill Parcells did, in three drafts, what Shanahan hasn't been able to do in ten.
Bill Parcells did, in three drafts, what Shanahan hasn't been able to do in ten.
Ouch!
I just feel that the GM and Head coach need to be two separate entities. We all can see that on the Broncos staff Job titles mean little. It's all smoke and mirrors.
At the end of the day it's Shanny's rule.
Beantown Bronco
11-06-2007, 12:00 PM
Bill Parcells did, in three drafts, what Shanahan hasn't been able to do in ten.
And Bill's SB trophies have A LOT more dust on them than Shanny's. Point?
Hercules Rockefeller
11-06-2007, 12:16 PM
Bad decisions? I know that we can all come up with some very good decisions but these are just some that come immediately to mind and make me believe there are enough to warrant a true GM:
Browncos
Ashlie Lelie
Willie Roaf
Adalius Thomas
Daryl Gardner
Maurice Clarett
Heimerdinger
Slowik, any Cleveland coach
DJ moved from weak to strong to middle
George Foster
Paul Toviessi
Denard Walker
Kenoy Kennedy
Willie Middlebrooks
Deltha O'Neal
Leon Lett
Safeties: Izell Reese, Lee Flowers, Ignoring the position
Lionel Dalton
Ephraim Saalam
Marco Coleman
Terry Pierce
Bradlee Van Pelt
Aaron Hunt
Clint Mitchell
Lenny Walls
Garrison Hearst
Darius Watts
Dorsett Davis
Kavika Pittman
Travis Taylor
Any list that includes 2nd day draft choices, a UDFA, and vets signed to one-year deals as mistakes is a complete joke. Same with one that has guys who were solid contributors for their time here, but moved on. Van Pelt is a mistake? He was taken at around pick 250 out of 256. There's a reason he went so late. There's a reason that Lenny Walls was undrafted. But those are mistakes? Give me a ****ing break. This expectation of perfection among some here is amazing. But gunns is pissed at moves that were made and moves that weren't, like not signed Adalius Thomas when there was never any report that Denver had any interest at the time or belief of a need. But playing Monday Morning QB, Shanahan's supposed to be blamed for that. Stupid Shanny, why couldn't you see in the future and see that your SLBs would be decimated by injuries? The only thing that's missing from this post is the obligatory "Ed Reed, waaaaahhhh!!!" that usually accompanies anything she says that personel related.
Sandy Clough was right this morning, Shanahan's been right on his moves much more than he's been wrong. If not, he'd have more than 1 single losing season in Denver.
gunns
11-06-2007, 02:50 PM
Any list that includes 2nd day draft choices, a UDFA, and vets signed to one-year deals as mistakes is a complete joke. Same with one that has guys who were solid contributors for their time here, but moved on. Van Pelt is a mistake? He was taken at around pick 250 out of 256. There's a reason he went so late. There's a reason that Lenny Walls was undrafted. But those are mistakes? Give me a ****ing break. This expectation of perfection among some here is amazing. But gunns is pissed at moves that were made and moves that weren't, like not signed Adalius Thomas when there was never any report that Denver had any interest at the time or belief of a need. But playing Monday Morning QB, Shanahan's supposed to be blamed for that. Stupid Shanny, why couldn't you see in the future and see that your SLBs would be decimated by injuries? The only thing that's missing from this post is the obligatory "Ed Reed, waaaaahhhh!!!" that usually accompanies anything she says that personel related.
Sandy Clough was right this morning, Shanahan's been right on his moves much more than he's been wrong. If not, he'd have more than 1 single losing season in Denver.
So 4 players out of 30 make it a joke. No one asked you to agree, it's my take on why we need a GM. A solid starter to me is one that contributes each and every game. You didn't state who was a solid contributor. No I don't agree that Kennedy was one if he's one you are referring to. I find it strange we didn't know the problems with Wilson before free agency started. Noticed you didn't mention Roaf. Yes I do have a problem with us not taking Ed Reed but above that Lelie was a wasted pick. And the facts that you mentioned Ed Reed without me doing so and that you would say the list was a joke based on 4 players tends to make me believe that this was a personal attack rather than a qualified post by you.
As far as the 1 single losing season, I'd say it's catching up with him this year.
alkemical
11-06-2007, 02:56 PM
lelie screwed himself. If he would have checked his ego at the door - he'd be starting now...and his deep threat ability with cutlers arm would have been a nice thing to watch.
Traveler
11-06-2007, 03:25 PM
I feel the need to defend our draft record, because it is something worth defending. It is, by and large, a very solid, albeit not completely spectacular record (We are not Baltimore, to be sure). It is something that there are alot of misconceptions and misinformation about. I'm not an apologist for the FO, but they get alot of undeserved flak about this particular issue. Alot of us tend to think about the high profile busts we have had in the draft and that leads many to conclude that the Broncos "just can't draft", as if it is a serious problem or something. This is, of course, a complete canard.
I don't belive everyone concludes the Broncos just can't draft. But put me in the camp that believe they have a problem in evaluating talent. You have to admit, missing out on our early round draft choices has alot to do with our current dilema.
We like to mistakenly engage in alot of histrionics and feverish hyperbole on this issue, instead of looking at the actual history and record in a levelheaded way.
One of the things that bothers me, is this thoroughly flawed method of analysis that focuses on "how many of our draftees are still on the team". This reaks of intellectual laziness and is an extremely inaccurate measure as it results in a gross undercounting of our successes. For example, this type of view unfairly excludes at least three types of players that can be rationally characterized as successful picks even though they are not on the roster:
Intellectual laziness or not, when your early round selections are not with the team, therefore, not contributing to the foundation and success of the team,
who is responsible? Taking into account circumstances the team has no control over, this team does have a problem in the FO. For instance, what is their explanation for drafting players with a known and current physical problem?
1. Players who served us generally well for a fairly decent period of time, who simply left during FA when they recieved a better offer. Kennedy and Hayward are prime examples of this.
Nice try Socal! Kennedy did play for us awhile. Hindsight being 20/20, the team viewed him filling the roll of Atwater when originally drafted. But his penchant for blowing coverages was the reason he was let go. Not because he received a better offer. He eventually did receive a contract from the Lions, but Denver made no attempt to keep him. If evaluated correctly, and I'm not implying he wasn't, his deficiency in coverages should have been identified. What does this cause us to do? Re-address a position.
As for Heyward, he was a viable player. He did receive a better offer. In this instance, the team low balled him in their offer and he bolted the moment FA opened that year. Thus, we lose a solid player because of problem in managing the cap. FO office issue.
2. Players who served us generally well for a fairly decent period of time, who were traded, thereby giving the team a substantial long term benefit directly traceable to them, in addition to the (at least) solid service they provided to the team. Portis is the clear example here, but other examples would be Lelie and T. Bell, two figures unfairly maligned by many fans, but whose legacies are much more positive than most people would give them credit for, in my opinion. Both players were solid (and at times quite explosive) starters who provided a good benefit across several years to this team despite significant flaws in their game. They also left the Broncos with an enduring benefit, either in the form of multiple useful draft choices (Lelie) or a single outstanding starter from another club (Bell).
Lelie's exit is something no team can prepare for. There is no measurement for heart and determination. My issue goes back to what I said earlier. The team selected Lelie over Portis even though they knew of the physical (hamstring) issue with Lelie. While Lelie was explosive at times, that does nothing for us now because he not with us. Hell, he didn't help ATL much and is currently the 3rd WR for SF. What does that say about the FO ability to evaluate?
If I remember correctly, there was talk of actually selecting Portis in the 1st round. They were ecstatic when he was still available in round two. They got lucky! And while I'm extremely happy we got Bailey for Portis, wouldn't you rather the team been right in drafting Deltha O'Neal just two years prior?
As for T. Bell, the FO fell in love with his speed. No way for me to prove what their evaluation was of Bell, but it's clearly evident to the average fan that his lack of vision and lack of power running between the tackles should have been identified on tape when he was drafted. Maybe they thought they could coach him up. But alas, it didn't work out. Another strikeout. To compensate, we had to invest millions in a new RB to re-address another position that should have been solidified.
Luckily, the FO was able to get value in return for T. Bell. Sadly, we had to include the 1st round bust that was George Foster to seal the deal. Yet another instance where our 1st and 2nd round selections aren't helping the "our" organiztion.
We just simply can't keep re-addressing our early round failures within two to three years after they have been drafted.
3. Players who served us generally well for a fairly decent period of time (especially in relation to the round in which they were picked), who were eventually let go due to injury or salary issues. The key examples here would be Anderson, Brandon and Putzier. None of these folks are on the roster, but each was an important contributor in his own right, and it reflects well on the organization that they were able to find them in the depths of the draft.
No arguement here. The following comment in no way demeans the guys currently filling starting positions. That said, to rely on players as starters drafted in the later rounds to build an organization partly explains why we are in our present state. No one is can't miss to be sure. But the players drafted in the later round fall that far for a reason.
This myth of a "Draft Crisis" is also furthered by the abject failure known as the 2003 draft, where we inexplicably batted 0for 10. This abortion of a performance is an outlier, not the norm. A quick perusal of our drafts this century, excluding this particular draft and 2007 (as it is too early to make a real analysis of that class) reveals the following:
2000: Three solid starters, a very good haul.
2001: Two solid starters, a respectable haul.
2002: An outstanding starter (later traded away for a King's ransom), a solid starter (later traded away for multiple, useful draft choices), and two important contributors. An outstanding haul.
2004: Two solid starters (one of whom traded away for a very substantial benefit) from the draft and two other serviceable starters from the UDFA round. That's a good, solid haul.
2005: One starter, and three important contributors (one of whom is currently acting as a starter in an emergency and not doing that bad, despite a poor game at DET). Certainly not worse than average.
2006: A Franchise QB, a pick traded for an outstanding starter, a very important contributor and essentially co-starter, and three other very promising starters. A jackpot, literally.
This is a good record, at the very least, a decent record (especially in light of our rather disadvantageous drafting position usually), certainly not worthy of all the hand wringing and crying and b****ing and drama. A record not without its blemishes to be sure, but also a record that can't be fully understood or appreciated by the mere perusal of our current roster and counting of picks that still remain. What we need to measure is the entirety of the benefit each pick gave us, whether they are still here or not.
I'm a big picture type of guy. And we can pick apart one another comments all day. I'm not in the fire Shanahan camp. He he should stay. I happen to disagree with portions your view of our recent drafts. Props to the organization for realizing their mistakes and addressing them. Just too many mistakes IMO.
The greatest enduring benefit shouldn't be what our draft choices have provided to our team in terms of draft choices received or players acquired by trade. The enduring benefit should be that the players we drafted are still with "our" organization because the FO did their due diligence and were correct in the choices they made.
There are always situations no team can prepare for, ie., Darrent Williams unfortunate and untimely death.
We can spin this draft issue a million different ways. The one constant is that the organization is suffering because many of our recent early round choices are not with this team. And partly to blame is the FO evalution of talent. Period!
Hercules Rockefeller
11-06-2007, 04:28 PM
So 4 players out of 30 make it a joke. No one asked you to agree, it's my take on why we need a GM. A solid starter to me is one that contributes each and every game. You didn't state who was a solid contributor. No I don't agree that Kennedy was one if he's one you are referring to. I find it strange we didn't know the problems with Wilson before free agency started. Noticed you didn't mention Roaf. Yes I do have a problem with us not taking Ed Reed but above that Lelie was a wasted pick. And the facts that you mentioned Ed Reed without me doing so and that you would say the list was a joke based on 4 players tends to make me believe that this was a personal attack rather than a qualified post by you.
As far as the 1 single losing season, I'd say it's catching up with him this year.
4 players? Do you even know where these people were taken or the contracts they signed, or did you just start spouting off? Roaf gets added into the moves not made along with Thomas, Lepsis has been more than adequate since he was moved to the left side. To complain about not getting Roaf when LT has been solid with ML in there, just shows you're reaching for anything to latch onto to complain about.
Roaf
Thomas
Kennedy
Walker
Van Pelt
Mitchell
Hunt
Your safeties listed
Dalton
Salaam
Coleman
Hearst
Travis Taylor- WTF is he even doing on here??
Lelie and Foster- not busts, busts don't start on multiple playoff teams, again this goes to the utter unrealistic expectations of some for late 1st round picks
Pittman
O'Neal
You're left with a pretty small list gunns.
gunns
11-06-2007, 05:22 PM
4 players? Do you even know where these people were taken or the contracts they signed, or did you just start spouting off? Roaf gets added into the moves not made along with Thomas, Lepsis has been more than adequate since he was moved to the left side. To complain about not getting Roaf when LT has been solid with ML in there, just shows you're reaching for anything to latch onto to complain about.
Roaf
Thomas
Kennedy
Walker
Van Pelt
Mitchell
Hunt
Your safeties listed
Dalton
Salaam
Coleman
Hearst
Travis Taylor- WTF is he even doing on here??
Lelie and Foster- not busts, busts don't start on multiple playoff teams, again this goes to the utter unrealistic expectations of some for late 1st round picks
Pittman
O'Neal
You're left with a pretty small list gunns.
You're left with a pretty small argument Herc. Trey Teague was our left tackle in 2001 and Ephraim Salaam started out as our left tackle in 2002, the same year KC took Roaf. Solid? About as solid as those "solid contributors."
And what exactly did Lelie and Foster do for this team? Ever. So if it's past the 15th pick the pickee is excused for picking up a bust?
Hercules Rockefeller
11-06-2007, 05:55 PM
You're left with a pretty small argument Herc. Trey Teague was our left tackle in 2001 and Ephraim Salaam started out as our left tackle in 2002, the same year KC took Roaf. Solid? About as solid as those "solid contributors."
And what exactly did Lelie and Foster do for this team? Ever. So if it's past the 15th pick the pickee is excused for picking up a bust?
Wow, you really knocked me down. 7th-round pick Teague gets added to the list and Salaam is thrown out there, I must have missed your reasoning on why Lepsis sucks. You kind of avoided that.
Let's see, Lelie led the league 2 years in ypc and had a 1,000-yd season. Hate to break it to you, but that's not a bust as much as you want him to be. Foster, started 46 of 48 games after his rookie year, with the first two seasons both having the Broncos go to the playoffs. Just terrible, totally and completely terrible.
wolf754life
11-07-2007, 12:51 AM
lol, you guys Defend his draft record, thats hilarious, absolutely incredible, this site has the biggest homers of all time!!!
SoCalBronco
11-07-2007, 01:46 AM
lol, you guys Defend his draft record, thats hilarious, absolutely incredible, this site has the biggest homers of all time!!!
I have an idea....instead of calling people homers, why don't you respond to the actual arguments we have presented.
Our drafts have been fine. Not all-world, but above-average and solid. Certainly not horrible, certainly not substandard and probably better than the norm. I've laid this out in detail on the previous page. As Herc noted, people often have unrealistic expectations for various players, for someone to simply be solid is not enough for people. Well guess what? Not everyone is an all pro, esp. when they arent a top 5 choice. Our drafting is fine, our record is a positive one. It's marred because of one horrifically bad year that stands out in people's minds, even thoguh it is (as I have already shown) clearly an outlier.
cutthemdown
11-07-2007, 02:16 AM
Shanny may run for cover at end of year and resign you never know.
kappys
11-07-2007, 02:41 AM
I'm still wondering what team we should be compared to then. Other the NE and Indy who drafts all that well? Not to mention that NE struck gold with Brady and Indy did the same with Manning. Any time you draft a hall of fame player you basically lucked out. Baltimore has good early defensive picks, but where are they these days?
fontaine
11-07-2007, 04:49 AM
I'm still wondering what team we should be compared to then. Other the NE and Indy who drafts all that well? Not to mention that NE struck gold with Brady and Indy did the same with Manning. Any time you draft a hall of fame player you basically lucked out. Baltimore has good early defensive picks, but where are they these days?
Terrell Suggs is going to be a free agent next year and he's an explosive base DE. I think he's the same guy Shanahan wanted to draft when he had a deal with the Billick a couple of years ago only for the ratbirds to squeal out of it in the last moment.
Bring in Vilma as well because he's supposed to be a leader on the field and draft DT next year.
Our secondary is set apart from signing a good safety and they can be had in free agency.