Two fundamental problems

[Popps]

1. Defensive philosophy

Tonight, you saw the purest example of how building your defense from the back-forward makes you a loser. Three big names in our secondary, none in our front seven. What happens? Our secondary gets picked apart. It's just so blatantly obvious I'm not sure how many other ways I can say it. When you spend your money and draft picks on cornerbacks and none one the D-line, you get what you saw tonight. No ability to stop the run and big plays allowed at the worst time.

We DID go after some D-line help this year, but it'll take a lot more than one season of grabbing a few rookies to plug in there.

Brett Favre dropped back and had a wide open pocket to step into. Our DEs were busy doing the happy-dance with the linemen, getting stood up as usual.

The result? We become part of the Favre folklore and will have to endure watching this replay 10,000 times over the next decade or so.

You build your defense by starting with multi-million dollar CBs and safeties, and ignore the front seven... and this is what you get. As I've said over and over, the best CBs in the game are useless with a crappy line.
Could that have been any more obvious tonight?


2. Jay Cutler is an absolute mess, mechanically.

Now, before any of the usual turds start blabbing about Jake Plummer, Brian Griese or anything else irrelevant, understand what I'm saying....

Cutler is freakishly talented and has potential to be a HOF QB, imo. I honestly feel that strongly about his abilities. But man, does he look like a mess in the pocket.

I need to watch the tape again, but I swear that guy didn't step into a pass all night long. Yea, he's got a strong arm. So did Dan Marino and John Elway. They stepped into their passes. Favre practically RUNS through his passes.

On almost every play, Jay's momentum carries him backwards. He's not even getting set up. It not only creates an improper throwing motion, it puts him at a disadvantage when dealing with pass-rushers. We saw him run directly into pass-rushers at least twice tonight.

"But, he's young... you can't judge him..."

Wrong. He's young, and that's when you DO judge him.... and he's a mechanical disaster. A rocket-arm is what separates him from any back-up, no-name QB in this league.

I truly believe we win this game tonight if Cutler knew how to drop back and carry his momentum into his throws. That 2nd down throw to the front of the endzone dove like a wounded duck in a windstorm. There's no excuse for that. He should have stepped into that throw and ripped it in there. At least give your guy a chance to make a play. Instead, he wobbled backwards in that weird, stumbling motion and tried to use his arm instead of his body to make the entire throw. The result, a dead duck and a lost game. (No, not blaming the game on him... unbunch your panties.)


These are both large-scale issues that will plague this team if left unchecked. Totally separate issues... but equally concerning.

[theAPAOps5]

He actually stepped into a few of his throws tonight. In fact Jaws pretty much announced his man crush over Cutler on those throws. But when pressured that goes down hill.

[Popps]

He actually stepped into a few of his throws tonight. In fact Jaws pretty much announced his man crush over Cutler on those throws. But when pressured that goes down hill.

Like I said, I have to watch the tape. I missed some of it because of work. But, I watched most... and his drop-back is just bizarre. He just sort of stumbles backwards. It almost looks like he's trying to put himself in a position to throw off his back foot.

His mechanics are so horrific, it makes the fact that he does complete so many passes that much more impressive.

Again, don't mistake this for a dislike of the guy. But, someone needs to help this kid out.

[DB_champ24]

about cutler I know he stepped into atleast one of his passes when he was outside of the pocket and it was a pass to schefler ofr a first down..I dont thinnk it helps when guys are coming through the middle of the line almost sacking him as well..I saw quite a few plays were that happened

[NFLBRONCO]

Most QB's falter getting pressured. He is still young everyone played only his 12th game.

[Ratboy]

Funny how they were raving about his mechanics during the game.

[Popps]

... and for the record, that was probably the hardest regular season loss to take since the Montana Monday Night game.

Mostly because we're going to have this rammed down our throats in highlights for the rest of time. We've just become an unfortunate bit-actor in Favre's highlight reel.

[Garcia Bronco]

He sets up when he can. He was alittle jittery tonight. I wouldn't say he's a mechanical mess either.

[bpc]

1. Defensive philosophy

Tonight, you saw the purest example of how building your defense from the back-forward makes you a loser. Three big names in our secondary, none in our front seven. What happens? Our secondary gets picked apart. It's just so blatantly obvious I'm not sure how many other ways I can say it. When you spend your money and draft picks on cornerbacks and none one the D-line, you get what you saw tonight. No ability to stop the run and big plays allowed at the worst time.

We DID go after some D-line help this year, but it'll take a lot more than one season of grabbing a few rookies to plug in there.

Brett Favre dropped back and had a wide open pocket to step into. Our DEs were busy doing the happy-dance with the linemen, getting stood up as usual.

The result? We become part of the Favre folklore and will have to endure watching this replay 10,000 times over the next decade or so.

You build your defense by starting with multi-million dollar CBs and safeties, and ignore the front seven... and this is what you get. As I've said over and over, the best CBs in the game are useless with a crappy line.
Could that have been any more obvious tonight?


2. Jay Cutler is an absolute mess, mechanically.

Now, before any of the usual turds start blabbing about Jake Plummer, Brian Griese or anything else irrelevant, understand what I'm saying....

Cutler is freakishly talented and has potential to be a HOF QB, imo. I honestly feel that strongly about his abilities. But man, does he look like a mess in the pocket.

I need to watch the tape again, but I swear that guy didn't step into a pass all night long. Yea, he's got a strong arm. So did Dan Marino and John Elway. They stepped into their passes. Favre practically RUNS through his passes.

On almost every play, Jay's momentum carries him backwards. He's not even getting set up. It not only creates an improper throwing motion, it puts him at a disadvantage when dealing with pass-rushers. We saw him run directly into pass-rushers at least twice tonight.

"But, he's young... you can't judge him..."

Wrong. He's young, and that's when you DO judge him.... and he's a mechanical disaster. A rocket-arm is what separates him from any back-up, no-name QB in this league.

I truly believe we win this game tonight if Cutler knew how to drop back and carry his momentum into his throws. That 2nd down throw to the front of the endzone dove like a wounded duck in a windstorm. There's no excuse for that. He should have stepped into that throw and ripped it in there. At least give your guy a chance to make a play. Instead, he wobbled backwards in that weird, stumbling motion and tried to use his arm instead of his body to make the entire throw. The result, a dead duck and a lost game. (No, not blaming the game on him... unbunch your panties.)


These are both large-scale issues that will plague this team if left unchecked. Totally separate issues... but equally concerning.

I agree completely on the first, partially on the second.

I thought it was a travesty that we sent the MERC unit out for the DLine tonight instead of a young passionate 1st round draft pick that helped us getting after Big Ben's ass last week. Rice didn't get any heat and he won't be here after the season. Stupid, stupid move. This team still needs a couple more players at DT at least. Even if we draft a bunch, they will have a learning curve as well next year. We are a few years a way in this area.

As for Cutler, I agree on the mechanics. I think Shanahan needs to drive the point home. Do it right, show him the right ways.

I also think that we just have a poor pass blocking unit if we want to drop back and throw it. Across the board our Oline was giving up heat. Between Pears getting beat down by Kampman on any double move play, Lepsis and Holland getting walked back to the QB multiple times, or Kuper not picking up twists correctly, Cutler had a hard time stepping into throwing lanes.

Its not a excuse on bad form but the last thing you want to see from our star QB is a finger on his throwing hand bent sideways because he stepped into the pressure, launched the ball and put his knuckle through a helmet.

We need better pass blocking from this unit.

[wolf754life]

eric pears is pretty sweet! i would be stepping into that all night long, aaron kampman style..............

[Popps]

Most QB's falter getting pressured. He is still young everyone played only his 12th game.

It's not about youth or pressure.

It's about preparation. Proper drop=back and footwork helps you AVOID pressure.

Watch Peyton Manning. The guy is a QB robot. If you want to see mechanics, watch that guy drop back, set up... and begin moving momentum forward... ball high, scanning the field. It's the same every play, pressure or not.

Yes, I understand there's an experience difference, but simply playing more won't MAKE you have proper mechanics. Someone has to teach the kid.

[Malcontent]

Jay did great tonight.... apart from some mis-judged throws, and errors in timing. He does have a long, long way to go, but one has to be encouraged by what we have seen so far. I am firmly entrenched in the JC bandwagon. He'll be fine, provided help comes by way of better coaching, and running game. Stokely was a fricking animal tonight!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Jay is skittish when the pocket breaks down. He'll hover around the back edge of the pile trying to scan over defenders, and then he'll unload while moving backward.

He just needs to get comfortable in the pocket.

I think that it will come in time.

[telluride]

Our two fundamental problems are Bates and Dinger. And Shanny has allowed their poor game planning and in-game decision making to screw us. I actually think the players played with heart tonight, especially so given the injuries. But to have the coaches call a horrible horrible game is just infuriating.

[The MVPlaya]

I just rewatched some tape, but he did step into some of his throws. When he bullets the ball, he will most likely step into it. But when he tries to float it in, he won't step into it.

A lot of times tonight, however, he didn't have an opportunity to step in. Everthing collapsed around him.

I actually rewatched some of the end of the Pitts game too, and he did step into the throws he could. When he starts feeling pressure, he won't step in most of the time.

On the 2nd down pass to Marshall in the endzone, he did step into it. As a matter of fact the form was right, just inaccurate.

The pass to Stokely on 4th down, he did step into it. The pass to Glenn Martinez on 3rd and 15 I believe it was, he did step into it...along with other plays where he could.

There were many plays though, where he couldn't step in at all.

One thing I got from the tape, was that Bly got burnt, he didn't even look for the run. There was a little push at the very end but nothing significant...he had bad strategy on that play. Instead of playing in front of the WR, he decided to play from behind/side...on a stronger WR too.

[Drek]

Our two fundamental problems are Bates and Dinger. And Shanny has allowed their poor game planning and in-game decision making to screw us. I actually think the players played with heart tonight, especially so given the injuries. But to have the coaches call a horrible horrible game is just infuriating.

They might have played with heart, but they sure didn't play with skill.

When our pathetic special teams are the least penalized and error prone of the three facets of each game its a sad statement.

None of our OLBs really even belong in the NFL at this point. Same with all but one of our DTs (Thomas, because he's young and has upside). The only safety on this team who should be anything more than a special teams contributor (Lynch) was out most of the game.

Our defense has fallen apart due to injury and old age. it needs a thorough house cleaning up the middle, keep the DEs and CBs, scrap everything else (except maybe DJ and Lynch if he doesn't retire soon).

On offense, yeah, Cutler still needs to work on his fundamentals, but you could say that for all the young guys, from the various holds, to Kuper running into Cutler when pulling and causing the fumble, to the RBs and WRs not being reliable enough in their jobs and dancing too much from time to time (RBs) or not securing catches that they should bring in because they're starting to look downfield (WRs).

Got a whole lot of issues to resolve on this team and this is going to be the most painful Broncos season in a very long time. The good news is that the team is still competitive despite playing horrible fundamental football. That points to a lot of talent and playmaking ability, which I think we can all agree is the reality of the situation. Given some time to fix the problems this could be a very good team, maybe even great if the higher than usual picks we're going to get pay off.

[Doggcow]

Anyone get the notion that we're way more effective when we don't run at all on drives?

[bpc]

Anyone get the notion that we're way more effective when we don't run at all on drives?

While I don't condone it, I've long thought throughout this season that we just need to let Cutler play throw and catch.

While I still feel that way, we will have a hard time just dropping back on any teams that can actually rush the passer. Our Line isn't good enough for that yet.

[theAPAOps5]

Jaws was funny tonight. He was raving about Cutlers Mechanics when I was able to watch towards the start. Then I did my airfield inspection came back and doh they were talking about his lack thereof.

[Kaylore]

2. Jay Cutler is an absolute mess, mechanically.
I'm sorry but that's incredibly ignorant and a classic case of post-loss hyperbole which is flagrant around here. An absolute mess mechanically = Michael Vick or Alex Smith; Guys that look ridiculous under center.

Jay did much better standing in the pocket and taking hits while making some throws - especially as the game wore on. My biggest problems with Jay in this game were throwing accurately across his body and holding onto the ball too long. That's some mechanics but a lot of decision making. Jaws even mentioned that Jay does a good job with his feet and keeping his body compact. In fact He holds the ball higher than he used to when he started, so mechanics are pretty good especially for where he's at.

His success on third down and in the fourth quarter speaks for itself. You can't make those throws if you're not playing at least decently mechanically - especially in an offense that requires timing and accuracy. He's making the touch throws and the lazers. His biggest problems are throws to the left side of the field are less accurate. That's more practice than mechanics. His other problem is just dumb choices from being a rookie.

Overall he has things he needs to work on, but "a mess mechanically" is miss-diagnosis.

[CBF1]

You take on the defense makes a lot of sense to me. We saw that the past 2 seasons or more and it is becoming more and more evident with each passing game.

[Doggcow]

While I don't condone it, I've long thought throughout this season that we just need to let Cutler play throw and catch.

While I still feel that way, we will have a hard time just dropping back on any teams that can actually rush the passer. Our Line isn't good enough for that yet.

Yea good call. We don't have a line like NE or Indy that we can just come out and say "We're gonna throw it at you" without any PA or running game to speak of.

I would however like to see more screens, or outs to the RB in the flats, since our oline is pourous, we may as well get Young away from them and let him make things happen in the open field.

Just my thoughts.

[Popps]

I'm sorry but that's incredibly ignorant and a classic case of post-loss hyperbole which is flagrant around here..


Look, kid... I've been saying this since last year.... and you're one to talk about post-loss threads. That's some funny ****, right there.

You think what you want. Try watching some tape and explain what Cutler is doing in the 2nd and 3rd quarter, and don't tell me it's because of a pass rush, either.

The kid has mechanical problems. You're right, maybe "a mess" is a bit of a stretch if you compare him to dolts like Mike Vick. (Talk about hyperbole.)

I'm talking about a blue-chip QB in a complex system under a supposed offensive genius. What I'm seeing on the field doesn't jive with that.

Cutler is smart enough and talented enough, and he's doing a great job early in his career.

He also has major mechanical flaws that hinder his game. It was beyond blatantly obvious tonight. (As it has been in the past.)

[Popps]

Jaws even mentioned that Jay does a good job with his feet and keeping his body compact. .

He does on some throws... but not enough.


His success on third down and in the fourth quarter speaks for itself. You can't make those throws if you're not playing at least decently .

I didn't say he wasn't playing decent He is... and a lot of those third down plays are a result of a big arm and mobility. Those have NOTHING to do with every-down mechanics.

I think he had the chance to win the game tonight, and just threw a flat-footed pass.

He'll get better, I just hope he's being pounded over the head with this stuff in practice. It sure doesn't look like it.

[BroncoBuff]

Both excellent observations, Popps, I agree. Though it's awkward to speak about our secondary being TOO good, our greatest needs are (I should have this next sentence on auto-type) a solid DT, Kris Jenkins wouldda been perfect, and a playmaking LB.


At least we addressed the DEs with some youth ... though they all need some time. I'm starting to wonder though about Moss's toughness. He's off the field more than on it.

[Popps]

Both excellent observations, Popps, I agree. Though it's awkward to speak about our secondary being TOO good, our greatest needs are (I should have this next sentence on auto-type) a solid DT, Kris Jenkins wouldda been perfect, and a playmaking LB.
.


I don't think many people have gushed over Champ Bailey on this board more than I have.

That said, I honestly think I'd trade him for an equally talented and disruptive DE.

I'd certainly trade Bly for a talented DT.

We're just wasting our time with those guys back there, given our front 7. It's just a big disservice to Champ and John.

I do like the young kids. Maybe we can land a couple more and some vets worth mentioning next off-season.

[BroncoBuff]

I agree with Popps that Cutler is a) uncomfortable in the pocket, b) rarely steps into the pocket or into passes. I also agree he is preternaturally talented.


It's now time imo to sit back and watch the kids play. Hasta la Vista, Simeon, Travis, SA, and Big Sam.

[Popps]

Cutler reminded me of Marino, right out of the gate with regards to talent.

He's just got to get his mechanics together. When he does, it's over. The rest of the league is ****ed.

The kid isn't afraid of anything.

[The MVPlaya]

Trade Bailey? I think that is a bit of a stretch right now...actually thats a huge stretch.

To say we lost the game because of Jay Cutler's mechanics is just retarded... not to mention he posted up a 95+ QB rating...

[Popps]

Trade Bailey? I think that is a bit of a stretch right now...actually thats a huge stretch.


Not suggesting it, remotely. First off, there's no possible scenario I can imagine that would be worth it.

Just saying in a perfect world, if Champ was Champ, but a DE... I think we'd be in much better shape. We need an every-down disrupter and just don't have one.

[BroncoBuff]

First off, there's no possible scenario I can imagine that would be worth it.
None? What if the Texans offered Mario Williams for some reason? Elite players are rare to some by, and they cost big money. But they win games.

The more I watch pro football, the more I think the game is mostly about two things: 3rd down conversions/stops, and pass protection/rush. Cutler is a machine on 3rd downs - they showed tonight he is the #1 QB in the league in 3rd down QB efficiency and completion pct. ... and for a patchwork offensive line, we protect him pretty well actually, despite his happy feet.

On defense, though ... the only 3rd downs we've stopped all year gave been on dropped balls or penalties. We just need a playmaker or two on defense ... D.J., Moss and Dumervil might be turning into playmakers, but it takes time. I'm sorry to be a parrot on this, but I just can't get over Kris Jenkins. An elite player, albeit with some personal problems, coming into the prime of his career. I don't get it. Elite players are rarely made available ... why do we sign the old, damaged ones like Simeon Rice, but not trade a mere 2nd rounder for a young one like Jenkins? hmmm...

[BroncoBuff]

Wait a minute - I do get it on Jenkins. The same reason we avoided Kris, got rid of Gerard Warren, traded/signed fossil blimps Sam Adams Dan Wilkinson and started street free agent Amon Gordon - is the "Bates Defensive Scheme." :oyvey:

Warren and Jenkins are both pretty good disruptors/penetrators ... but we don't want that! We wany fat men like Sam Adams, Big Daddy and Amon Gordon (anybody notice Adams was single-teamed most of tionight?)


I am not happy with Jum Bates ...

[The MVPlaya]

Having happy feet is fine...but just make it mechanically right. Look at Peyton Manning (again) he always has his feet moving...

[The MVPlaya]

Wait a minute - I do get it on Jenkins. The same reason we avoided him - and got rid of Gerard Warren - traded for fossil blimp Dan Wilkinson - and started street free agent Amon Gordon - is that Bates defense. :oyvey:

Warren and Jenkins are both pretty good disruptors/penetrators ... but we don't want that! We wany fat men like Sam Adams, Big Daddy and Amon Gordon.


I am not happy with Jum Bates ...

Well we acquired those guys assuming we were going to go with the Jim Bates scheme...if you haven't noticed, we have moved away from that scheme and went back to a Cover 2...same ish as last year. We give up all these passes, and we always seem vulnerable. That "bend, but don't break" defense is not going to get us where we want to be at.

We a "don't bend and don't break" defense...

[BroncoBuff]

You're right MVP ... but now that we've dumped it, wouldn't Gerard Warren and Kris Jenkins look a heckuva lot better than Sam Adams and Amon Gordon? (You don't actually have to answer).



I think I've fully stated my agreement with Popps #1 fundamental problem, and our foolish persinnel decisions on the D-Line.

I just turned 47 an hour ago. I need some sleep.


Nite'all!

[The MVPlaya]

You're right MVP ... but now that we've dumped it, wouldn't Gerard Warren and Kris Jenkins look a heckuva lot better than Sam Adams and Amon Gordon? (You don't actually have to answer).



I think I've fully stated my agreement with Popps #1 fundamental problem, and our foolish persinnel decisions on the D-Line.

I just turned 47 an hour ago. I need some sleep.


Nite'all!

congrats! Happy Birthday! :thumbs:

[Popps]

I just turned 47 an hour ago.

I need some sleep.


Nite'all!

Get some sleep there, gramps! :clown:

Happy bday, Buff. Have a great one.

[BowlenBall]

You're right MVP ... but now that we've dumped it, wouldn't Gerard Warren and Kris Jenkins look a heckuva lot better than Sam Adams and Amon Gordon? (You don't actually have to answer).



I think I've fully stated my agreement with Popps #1 fundamental problem, and our foolish persinnel decisions on the D-Line.

I just turned 47 an hour ago. I need some sleep.


Nite'all!

Happy Birthday! 47, huh? You've made it to John Lynch's jersey number -- here's hoping you live to match Alvin McKinley's!

[Broncos_OTM]

1. Defensive philosophy

Tonight, you saw the purest example of how building your defense from the back-forward makes you a loser. Three big names in our secondary, none in our front seven. What happens? Our secondary gets picked apart. It's just so blatantly obvious I'm not sure how many other ways I can say it. When you spend your money and draft picks on cornerbacks and none one the D-line, you get what you saw tonight. No ability to stop the run and big plays allowed at the worst time.

We DID go after some D-line help this year, but it'll take a lot more than one season of grabbing a few rookies to plug in there.

Brett Favre dropped back and had a wide open pocket to step into. Our DEs were busy doing the happy-dance with the linemen, getting stood up as usual.

The result? We become part of the Favre folklore and will have to endure watching this replay 10,000 times over the next decade or so.

You build your defense by starting with multi-million dollar CBs and safeties, and ignore the front seven... and this is what you get. As I've said over and over, the best CBs in the game are useless with a crappy line.
Could that have been any more obvious tonight?


2. Jay Cutler is an absolute mess, mechanically.

Now, before any of the usual turds start blabbing about Jake Plummer, Brian Griese or anything else irrelevant, understand what I'm saying....

Cutler is freakishly talented and has potential to be a HOF QB, imo. I honestly feel that strongly about his abilities. But man, does he look like a mess in the pocket.

I need to watch the tape again, but I swear that guy didn't step into a pass all night long. Yea, he's got a strong arm. So did Dan Marino and John Elway. They stepped into their passes. Favre practically RUNS through his passes.

On almost every play, Jay's momentum carries him backwards. He's not even getting set up. It not only creates an improper throwing motion, it puts him at a disadvantage when dealing with pass-rushers. We saw him run directly into pass-rushers at least twice tonight.

"But, he's young... you can't judge him..."

Wrong. He's young, and that's when you DO judge him.... and he's a mechanical disaster. A rocket-arm is what separates him from any back-up, no-name QB in this league.

I truly believe we win this game tonight if Cutler knew how to drop back and carry his momentum into his throws. That 2nd down throw to the front of the endzone dove like a wounded duck in a windstorm. There's no excuse for that. He should have stepped into that throw and ripped it in there. At least give your guy a chance to make a play. Instead, he wobbled backwards in that weird, stumbling motion and tried to use his arm instead of his body to make the entire throw. The result, a dead duck and a lost game. (No, not blaming the game on him... unbunch your panties.)


These are both large-scale issues that will plague this team if left unchecked. Totally separate issues... but equally concerning.
i dissaggree i really dont understand one bonehead move i seen him pull was running right into kampman. but he is clutch he moves the ball. specially with no help from the running game. i aggree with the defense but i think you are wrong with cutler.

[Broncos_OTM]

and peeople wanted to convert to the 3-4 shot we dont even have players for the 4-3

[missingnumber7]

I agree with Popps that Cutler is a) uncomfortable in the pocket, b) rarely steps into the pocket or into passes. I also agree he is preternaturally talented.


It's now time imo to sit back and watch the kids play. Hasta la Vista, Simeon, Travis, SA, and Big Sam.

Didn't Shanny change some of the scheme to get Plummer out of the pocket? Cutler throws well when he's on the move...and damn does he have a laser.

[TheReverend]

Both excellent observations, Popps, I agree. Though it's awkward to speak about our secondary being TOO good, our greatest needs are (I should have this next sentence on auto-type) a solid DT, Kris Jenkins wouldda been perfect, and a playmaking LB.


At least we addressed the DEs with some youth ... though they all need some time. I'm starting to wonder though about Moss's toughness. He's off the field more than on it.

I think the next time you say "Kris Jenkins" I'm going to stab myself in the eyeball

[TheReverend]

None? What if the Texans offered Mario Williams for some reason? Elite players are rare to some by, and they cost big money. But they win games.

The more I watch pro football, the more I think the game is mostly about two things: 3rd down conversions/stops, and pass protection/rush. Cutler is a machine on 3rd downs - they showed tonight he is the #1 QB in the league in 3rd down QB efficiency and completion pct. ... and for a patchwork offensive line, we protect him pretty well actually, despite his happy feet.

On defense, though ... the only 3rd downs we've stopped all year gave been on dropped balls or penalties. We just need a playmaker or two on defense ... D.J., Moss and Dumervil might be turning into playmakers, but it takes time. I'm sorry to be a parrot on this, but I just can't get over Kris Jenkins. An elite player, albeit with some personal problems, coming into the prime of his career. I don't get it. Elite players are rarely made available ... why do we sign the old, damaged ones like Simeon Rice, but not trade a mere 2nd rounder for a young one like Jenkins? hmmm...


Oh God there it is.

MY EYES MY EYES!

[TheReverend]

Wait a minute - I do get it on Jenkins. The same reason we avoided Kris, got rid of Gerard Warren, traded/signed fossil blimps Sam Adams Dan Wilkinson and started street free agent Amon Gordon - is the "Bates Defensive Scheme." :oyvey:

Warren and Jenkins are both pretty good disruptors/penetrators ... but we don't want that! We wany fat men like Sam Adams, Big Daddy and Amon Gordon (anybody notice Adams was single-teamed most of tionight?)


I am not happy with Jum Bates ...


Sweet heavenly Christ! Help!

[TheReverend]

You're right MVP ... but now that we've dumped it, wouldn't Gerard Warren and Kris Jenkins look a heckuva lot better than Sam Adams and Amon Gordon? (You don't actually have to answer).



I think I've fully stated my agreement with Popps #1 fundamental problem, and our foolish persinnel decisions on the D-Line.

I just turned 47 an hour ago. I need some sleep.


Nite'all!

Happy Birthday you merciless son of a bitch!

[Requiem]

Clarification: Not "tape" - you rewatched the game. There's a difference. (Directed at whoever said that.)

[RhymesayersDU]

I don't think many people have gushed over Champ Bailey on this board more than I have.

That said, I honestly think I'd trade him for an equally talented and disruptive DE.

I'd certainly trade Bly for a talented DT.

We're just wasting our time with those guys back there, given our front 7. It's just a big disservice to Champ and John.

I do like the young kids. Maybe we can land a couple more and some vets worth mentioning next off-season.

I actually agree. I love Champ, have his jersey, etc. I'm a big a homer for him as anybody...

But I thought to myself this morning in the shower, can I even name who the Giants' 2 starting CBs are?

I can't.

But I can sure name Umenyora (sp?) and Strahan. Leaving Champ and Bly on an island will work against a not so good QB. But with a guy like Favre, or Peyton, or Brady, for the most part you just can't do it. a speed WR, a playaction call, etc will beat them every time.

[epa86b@netzero]

I don't think many people have gushed over Champ Bailey on this board more than I have.

That said, I honestly think I'd trade him for an equally talented and disruptive DE.

I'd certainly trade Bly for a talented DT.

We're just wasting our time with those guys back there, given our front 7. It's just a big disservice to Champ and John.

I do like the young kids. Maybe we can land a couple more and some vets worth mentioning next off-season.

Our defensive needs 1 or more DTs who are strong and can cave the pocket in. Our young DEs are good enough.

[Chris]

I just worry that the win now mentality is screwing us. We need to build with young guys around cutler and on D.

[Popps]

i aggree with the defense but i think you are wrong with cutler.

Well, I didn't say that he wasn't "clutch." I believe he is.

I said he appears to be getting to some bad, mechanical throwing habits.

Those are two very different things, though... the latter could eventually lead to someone NOT being clutch.

[Popps]

Our defensive needs 1 or more DTs who are strong and can cave the pocket in. Our young DEs are good enough.

Could be. Elvis is still more of a situational player, though. A healthy Ekuban actually would have helped us this year.

But, you're right... there are big holes up the middle of this defense, the last place you want weakness in your D.

[FrontRowSeat1]

The record speaks for itself at this point. All this Cutler is future HOF material is mindless hope and a prayer that if we say it enough it will be true. Based on last nights game, wait till we have to deal with Jared Allen. KC's D lined up across from this O line will be ugly. Very ugly.

[Beantown Bronco]

Cutler is like two different QBs IMO. He has very good mechanics outside the pocket....consistently setting himself up and stepping into throws properly. But inside the pocket is another story....mostly throwing off the back foot, etc. The protection (or lack thereof) clearly has to take a good chunk of the blame here. It's not rocket science trying to figure out what's going on. They've been facing some top tier DLines the last few weeks and they clearly are struggling in (1) pass protection and (2) goal line/jumbo package blocking. It is what it is.

[Rock Chalk]

I'm sorry but that's incredibly ignorant and a classic case of post-loss hyperbole which is flagrant around here. An absolute mess mechanically = Michael Vick or Alex Smith; Guys that look ridiculous under center.

Jay did much better standing in the pocket and taking hits while making some throws - especially as the game wore on. My biggest problems with Jay in this game were throwing accurately across his body and holding onto the ball too long. That's some mechanics but a lot of decision making. Jaws even mentioned that Jay does a good job with his feet and keeping his body compact. In fact He holds the ball higher than he used to when he started, so mechanics are pretty good especially for where he's at.

His success on third down and in the fourth quarter speaks for itself. You can't make those throws if you're not playing at least decently mechanically - especially in an offense that requires timing and accuracy. He's making the touch throws and the lazers. His biggest problems are throws to the left side of the field are less accurate. That's more practice than mechanics. His other problem is just dumb choices from being a rookie.

Overall he has things he needs to work on, but "a mess mechanically" is miss-diagnosis.

Cutler did well initially. Stepping in to throws, releasing well, moving his hips, footwork. But as the game wore on, even without pressure, he was a mess mechanically. Yes, a god damn disaster. And this is not be attacking cutler because unlike most of the morons on this board, I thought Cutler played his best game of his career last night. His mechanics DID get progressively worse throughout the evening and by the middle of the 3rd quarter he was a mess when he dropped back to pass even on the few occassions he didnt have some cheesehead asshole in his face.

I dont agree that he has horrible mechanics overall, but I do agree that he was a mess through the second half of that game last night.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I thought Cutler played his best game of his career last night. .

He was off target most of the night. Receivers (Marshall, Stokely and Young) made some great adjustments and caught a couple of balls most would have dropped. He also ran right into the first sack that he easily could have avoided.

[FrontRowSeat1]

We lost. Hello?

[BMF Bronco]

hey, look at the bright side, it was his first game in many without an INT!

[Rock Chalk]

He was off target most of the night. Receivers (Marshall, Stokely and Young) made some great adjustments and caught a couple of balls most would have dropped. He also ran right into the first sack that he easily could have avoided.

I saw a few off target passes, but mostly I saw him throwing freaking strikes to his receivers AND then making greatplays.

Our receivers played well I thought.

[Popps]

His mechanics DID get progressively worse throughout the evening and by the middle of the 3rd quarter he was a mess when he dropped back to pass even on the few occassions he didnt have some cheesehead a-hole in his face.

I dont agree that he has horrible mechanics overall, but I do agree that he was a mess through the second half of that game last night.


I agree. At times, he looks like he's doing things as he should. But, he's steeped in some very bad habits, and it does seem to get worse as games go on. Again, the rocket-arm saves him.... but that will only go so far.

Someone just needs to work with the kid, that's all. He'll be a superstar.

[Cito Pelon]

Like I said, I have to watch the tape. I missed some of it because of work. But, I watched most... and his drop-back is just bizarre. He just sort of stumbles backwards. It almost looks like he's trying to put himself in a position to throw off his back foot.

His mechanics are so horrific, it makes the fact that he does complete so many passes that much more impressive.

Again, don't mistake this for a dislike of the guy. But, someone needs to help this kid out.

The Dude needs some refinement, that's for sure. Dude runs the two-minute drill superbly, and that's a really big deal in the NFL. So, a little seasoning, some good coaching, some accepting of good coaching, a little more relaxed play in the pocket, he can be a good one.

[fontaine]

The Dude needs some refinement, that's for sure. Dude runs the two-minute drill superbly, and that's a really big deal in the NFL. So, a little seasoning, some good coaching, some accepting of good coaching, a little more relaxed play in the pocket, he can be a good one.

It's not just Cutler, Marshall also lives for those crunch time plays where he gets plenty of yards after the catch.

I don't know whether it was the pass rush or what but Cutler did have problems in the 2nd half. Even though he had a solid performance hopefully they can continue to work on his fundamentals because that last thing I want is for him to turn into another Aaron Brooks who had awful footwork on this throws.