Anybody have any real suggestions on how to improve?

[fontaine]

Ok, we've just gone through two really ugly losses, but we have a bye week where the team can get back to basics.

So does anyone have any suggestion on how to improve the Run D, ST?

No, I'm talking about firing Shanahan or Bates because that would be akin to just giving up for the season.

A couple of weeks ago I created a thread on a suggestion on how to improve that run D and it was to run biltz on 1st and 2nd and long situations. I can now see that's going nowhere because we tried that against the Chargers and they gashed us for huge play action pass gains to LT, and Turner running out wide to avoid the bodies up the middle.

Here's my suggestion: Bench Gold and Webster. Replace them with DD Lewis and Winborn, and I don't know what to do with DJ.

Argueably the only guy that played with any fire was Martinez because he was playing for a job. Could the same be true with Lewis/Winborn? I do know that I can't stand the fact that Gold was too busy chumming it up with LT and Webster just took horribly wrong angles.

Here's another one: Keep Scheffler on the field. Jay and Scheff have a great chemistry on those passes up the seam.

As for ST? Who knows, apart from that stupid fumble our STs actually played ok. Maybe they're coming around?

[Raiders Rock]

Fire BeaverBoy
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7921/beavqw3.jpg

[fontaine]

:giggle:

Good one.

Maybe we could get the defensive players on the front 7 to wear helmets that really reflect the way they play ball!

Seriously though, we need to bench Webster and Gold.

[BroncoBuff]

Have Shanny mellow out and de-tense. Promote more of a "team together" mentality.

[broncoblue]

sit them down with vids of the old crush,the superbowl vids and show them what passion is all about..yesterday they gave the impression that dont give a fk and that easy st is good enough....take them round the working class people in denver and make them see the real world...

BRONCOS TIL I DIE!

[fontaine]

Have Shanny mellow out and de-tense. Promote more of a "team together" mentality.

Are suggesting Shanny hang out more with Henry and his stash?
:giggle:

[BroncoBuff]

Are suggesting Shanny hang out more with Henry and his stash?
:giggle:
Actually, yeah!

More friendship and coaching, less anger and yelling. I am 100% convinced this team's problems are more mental than physical ... Exhibit A: We were #5 and #6 out of 32 teams in offense and defensive yardage.

[Maximus]

So does anyone have any suggestion on how to improve the Run D, ST?

No, I'm talking about firing Shanahan or Bates because that would be akin to just giving up for the season.



Giving up for the season is the message shanahan sent when he pulled Plummer last season... He packed it in during a potential playoff run in favor of a Rookie QB. So, why not fire shanahan... He's the cause of the mess... He hired the coaching staff and is in charge of all the players and free agents that were brought in???

[elsid13]

Let put Mike Bell back as RB. At least the kid fought when he was in there and didn't miss his cut back lanes unlike Henry doing!

[Raiders Rock]

?????


http://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2006-08-09-clarett2-large.jpg

[ksBRONCOfan]

They need to send everyone to tackling school. It seems like everyone wants to make a big hit rather than actually tackle someone. Ian Gold seems like he's been on a downward spiral ever since he came back to Denver. His new name should be Ian Gotburned. Webster needs to cut his hair so his helmet will stay on. I like Cutler, but it doesn't seem like he is taking control of the game. He's just going through the motions.

From here on out I can only hope they finish better than the Chefs.

[BroncoInferno]

I actually feel pretty confident that the offense is going to come around pretty soon. Our problems have not been the other team stopping us; the problems have been mental errors that result from a lot of youngsters and new faces in the starting lineup. They've been getting yards, but so far that has not translated into point due to these untimely errors. I mean, even yesterday with that 3 point effort, it really didn't have anything to do with being overmatched by SD's defense. They weren't blowing into the backfield against the run, that didn't have much of a pass rush, they did'nt really cover particularly well. Drop passes and turnovers among other mental breakdowns are what did us in. The good news is those types of things can be corrected, especially with a young group like we have. I agree about Scheffler; his return will add another deminsion to the offense because he can stretch the middle of the field versus LBs and safetys. Martinez was also a pleasant surprise; you wonder why he never got a shot sooner. I guess maybe because he's not a very impressive physical speciment...kinda small, not a lot of straight line speed...but he looks like a gamer. His one punt return was promising. Granted, it was only a single attempt, it be he showed promise nimbly avoided tackles while still heading upfield. Hopefully, he can keep that up.

Defensively, I think we'll improve with more familarity with the scheme, but there are personnel problems at DT and LB that will prevent us from making any kind of drastic improvement. We'll just have to keep working to shore up scheme familarity and hope for the best. I'm think we get can get to around 20th in the league. We'll have to address LB/DT in the offseason. Fortunately, DT is pretty deep in the draft this season and LB is one of the easier position to identify talent, especially in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

[ak1971]

Its all about the fans..if they would have stayed in thier seats we would have won 51-43!

[BroncoBuff]

That Clarett photo is so very very sad.

TRIVIA: Did you know that, in the very last football play Marcus Clarett was on a field for in his entire life, he ran for a TD to win the college National Championship?


There's gotta be a book/movie there. We'll wait for the 3rd Act though ... ???

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

It all starts with Shanahan admitting his decision-making was poor in a number of facets and for heads to roll. DJ is NOT a MLB. Bates and his "scheme" are not going to cut it. Heimerdinger is garbage. The playcalling is bland and atrocious.

If drastic measures aren't taken in these 2 weeks, all of the problems will fall squarely on Shanahan's shoulders and this season will continue to wind down the toilet. Make the damned moves that are needed for the Denver Broncos to succeed. Quit babying this team and keeping these hacks on as coaches simply because they're your friends.

[bloodsunday]

I'd say do some serious scouting on the waiver wire or potential trades. One good pick-up at LB or DT could make a HUGE difference.

An example is Kris Jenkins if he's still available.

Another thing is that they have to let Cutler throw more. They also have to let him throw more in pressure situations. He's gonna make mistakes, that's a given. But right now the offense looks like the Jake Plummer led offense. Convservative and void of big-game changing plays. They can't just do two runs and a pass in the flat every time they get into the redzone. With Scheffler and Graham they should own the middle of a defense and put huge pressure because of our match-ups outside with Marshall and Walker (hopefully soon).

One last thing... I think they have to find a way to get young. Start playing some young guys (where it makes sense -- don't quit). Guys like Meyers, Kuper, Scheffler, Martinez, Crowder, Moss etc should see playing time. With the veterans we know what we have and the ceiling is some-what limited. With kids, they can mature and come-of-age during the season to improve this team and its prospects.

This team also needs some leaders to step up. We can't panic given that we are tied for the division lead. There are ways to right the ship if we can bring the level of intensity, concentration, and confidence back up to par. There is something troubling this team that must be worked out through the emergence of team leaders.

[Maximus]

It all starts with Shanahan admitting his decision-making was poor in a number of facets and for heads to roll. DJ is NOT a MLB. Bates and his "scheme" are not going to cut it. Heimerdinger is garbage. The playcalling is bland and atrocious.

If drastic measures aren't taken in these 2 weeks, all of the problems will fall squarely on Shanahan's shoulders and this season will continue to wind down the toilet. Make the damned moves that are needed for the Denver Broncos to succeed. Quit babying this team and keeping these hacks on as coaches simply because they're your friends.


Maybe the play calling is bland and atrocious because the uninterested surfer boy can't grasp the playbook. He doesn't seem interested in looking at photos after making mistakes... The play calling was much more intimidating when Plummer was on your squad... but your head coach laid the blame on him and ran him out of town.

[Beantown Bronco]

Why the continued bagging on Gold? He (relatively) looked good yesterday, didn't miss any tackles as far as I could tell, and generally was in good position. Don't even bring up the one play against V. Jackson....there's not a single LB in the league who can cover a team's #1 WR 30 yards downfield without any help.

[broncoblue]

Maybe the play calling is bland and atrocious because the uninterested surfer boy can't grasp the playbook. He doesn't seem interested in looking at photos after making mistakes... The play calling was much more intimidating when Plummer was on your squad... but your head coach laid the blame on him and ran him out of town.

makes me laugh how the fade trolls have reappeared again

[BroncoBuff]

I think Jenkins is off the market now bloodsunday. The Panthers won a huge victory yesterday, and it came after Jenkins held a closed-door players only meeting.

:( ... too bad. I was cheering for the Saints for just that reason.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Maybe the play calling is bland and atrocious because the uninterested surfer boy can't grasp the playbook. He doesn't seem interested in looking at photos after making mistakes... The play calling was much more intimidating when Plummer was on your squad... but your head coach laid the blame on him and ran him out of town.

Back to the "looking at pictures" thing again? Where do you get that Cutler doesn't study the game or receive coaching during play? The playcalling is what's bad. You don't need to study pictures of a D after trying a bootleg up the middle on 3rd and 4. Cutler can make all the plays when put in the right position to do so.

[bloodsunday]

I think Jenkins is off the market now bloodsunday. The Panthers won a huge victory yesterday, and it came after Jenkins held a closed-door players only meeting.

:( ... too bad. I was cheering for the Saints for just that reason.

Yeah a move like that is rarely made in-season. But its an example. Last year Indy got McFarland from Tampa and it really paid dividends for them. There are teams out there that are either ready to get young and move veterans or have disgruntled veterans (our specialty). It's the job of the scouting department to find them and the FO to get them here.

[Maximus]

makes me laugh how the fade trolls have reappeared again

When did Raider fans leave...? I've been here since 2001 consistently... you just don't want me here right now because you can't handle the truth.

Now Rulon said that the play calling was pathetic... and that the Coordinator should be responsible. I'm saying that the coordinator is limited by the QB... His play calling wasn't uninspired when Plummer was around... Was it! Who ever made the decision to get rid of plummer made Heimerdingers job just that much tougher. The same person who brought in all the FA's on defense... Including Sam Adams ( A fat lazy bum who doesn't fit bates system ) is the one who shoulders all the blame.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Now Rulon said that the play calling was pathetic... and that the Coordinator should be responsible. I'm saying that the coordinator is limited by the QB... His play calling wasn't uninspired when Plummer was around... Was it! Who ever made the decision to get rid of plummer made Heimerdingers job just that much tougher. The same person who brought in all the FA's on defense... Including Sam Adams ( A fat lazy bum who doesn't fit bates system ) is the one who shoulders all the blame.

I'm lost in that we were all told that Shanahan could open up the playbook and do things with Cutler that he couldn't do with Plummer. That promise gave us all hope. And it still may come - but they're moving it along slowly.

But that's obviously not the focus of the troubles. The offense and their **** playcalling are actually in a better position than the atrocious defense, as sad as that may be.

[tsiguy96]

When did Raider fans leave...? I've been here since 2001 consistently... you just don't want me here right now because you can't handle the truth.

Now Rulon said that the play calling was pathetic... and that the Coordinator should be responsible. I'm saying that the coordinator is limited by the QB... His play calling wasn't uninspired when Plummer was around... Was it! Who ever made the decision to get rid of plummer made Heimerdingers job just that much tougher. The same person who brought in all the FA's on defense... Including Sam Adams ( A fat lazy bum who doesn't fit bates system ) is the one who shoulders all the blame.


why have you been here? does a game that has absolutely no effect on your life mean so much that you have to go to a FAN FORUM of another team just to talk trash? i dont understand it?

[Raiders Rock]

why have you been here? does a game that has absolutely no effect on your life mean so much that you have to go to a FAN FORUM of another team just to talk trash? i dont understand it?

It's fun Mr.155 Post Hero.... the board veterans are talking now and prefer the n00bs sit back and watch


Thanks
RR

[cmhargrove]

Why the continued bagging on Gold? He (relatively) looked good yesterday, didn't miss any tackles as far as I could tell, and generally was in good position. Don't even bring up the one play against V. Jackson....there's not a single LB in the league who can cover a team's #1 WR 30 yards downfield without any help.

I'm not a Gold basher but let's look at the facts. He is actually in position for run support as much as any of our LB's. However, opposing teams are now drawing him down the field in pass support on a regular basis. Look at Dallas Clark the previous week. Teams are drawing our corners and safeties in to the line of scrimmage because our D-line can't handle the run on their own. Then, the put an athletic TE on Gold and run him down the field. I don't think we've seen the last of this concept. I would think the Steelers will be looking at this really closely with Heath Miller. To be fair, I don't expect LB's to cover 30 yards down field. But, Gold has been the whipping boy on big TE play so far this year. It's not that it happens on all plays, but it is happening on very important plays (game breaking TD's).

[bpc]

What can we do to get better? Numerous things.

Play-calling - By far some of the worst I've seen from us on offense ever. Stop being predictable. I think we need to pick up some tape of old Brett Favre games and implement some of those plays into our offense: A lot more screens then we are using and actually using and teach the offense how to run it. We need to take some deep shots down the field. We have a QB with a cannon... yet, I've seen us dramatically reduce our long ball throws from Cutler's last five games to this season. I can't recall many long throws at all.

Go young, make a statement - It is plain and simple, we lacked heart and fire out there today. THE COACHES, not the fans, need to locate the areas where assignments are being busted, where the efforts are low and make changes. I would rather see two week old Bronco Jamie Winborn out there making mistakes going 100mph than some of the crap I've seen our LB's doing over the past few weeks who have been here since April, who have been running this scheme for months and just don't care. We need to locate a vet that isn't pulling their weight in play vs. their salary and cut them outright. That will get the attention of the team back real fast. IMO, players know they have a comfy lifestyle. They get Monday, Wednesday, Friday off... Vet's say when they are and are not practicing. It's all bull$hit. We need to get more regemented and hungry from our coaching staff on down. Shanahan needs to put some heat on those asses and get them in gear. "if you are not practicing, you are not playing... if you are not playing, you aren't going to be here."

[bpc]

... also, KEEP TONY SCHEFFLER ON THE FIELD ON OFFENSE AS SOME OTHER POSTER DULY NOTED! Why would we even play somebody like Nate Jackson, who has topped out, will never be more than a two or three TD TE per yer and leave Scheff sitting on the bench if he is healthy. I don't get it. At this point and time, Cutler needs all the targets he can trust out there. Him and TS have chemistry... GO WITH IT!

[elsid13]

What can we do to get better? Numerous things.

Play-calling - By far some of the worst I've seen from us on offense ever. Stop being predictable. I think we need to pick up some tape of old Brett Favre games and implement some of those plays into our offense: A lot more screens then we are using and actually using and teach the offense how to run it. We need to take some deep shots down the field. We have a QB with a cannon... yet, I've seen us dramatically reduce our long ball throws from Cutler's last five games to this season. I can't recall many long throws at all.

Go young, make a statement - It is plain and simple, we lacked heart and fire out there today. THE COACHES, not the fans, need to locate the areas where assignments are being busted, where the efforts are low and make changes. I would rather see two week old Bronco Jamie Winborn out there making mistakes going 100mph than some of the crap I've seen our LB's doing over the past few weeks who have been here since April, who have been running this scheme for months and just don't care. We need to locate a vet that isn't pulling their weight in play vs. their salary and cut them outright. That will get the attention of the team back real fast. IMO, players know they have a comfy lifestyle. They get Monday, Wednesday, Friday off... Vet's say when they are and are not practicing. It's all bull$hit. We need to get more regemented and hungry from our coaching staff on down. Shanahan needs to put some heat on those asses and get them in gear. "if you are not practicing, you are not playing... if you are not playing, you aren't going to be here."

It is very weird about the offense play calls. I don't understand why we seem to be going back to the same formation and plays in the passing game week in and week out. I wonder how much is Dinger and how much is Shanahan. BTW I tried of Young messing up. I know he young but Turner needs to sit his ass down and get him focused.

[cmhargrove]

I have another suggestion, employ a real 12th man like Texas A & M. Let a fan with more heart than our ST come in for a ST play. If he lays himself out, maybe the other guys will decide to do the same. (just blowing crap here, move along).

[elsid13]

... also, KEEP TONY SCHEFFLER ON THE FIELD ON OFFENSE AS SOME OTHER POSTER DULY NOTED! Why would we even play somebody like Nate Jackson, who has topped out, will never be more than a two or three TD TE per yer and leave Scheff sitting on the bench if he is healthy. I don't get it. At this point and time, Cutler needs all the targets he can trust out there. Him and TS have chemistry... GO WITH IT!

I think that Scheffer is just getting back into shape and healthy. I expect we will see more of him in ace packages as the season goes on.

[Maximus]

I'm lost in that we were all told that Shanahan could open up the playbook and do things with Cutler that he couldn't do with Plummer. That promise gave us all hope. And it still may come - but they're moving it along slowly.

But that's obviously not the focus of the troubles. The offense and their **** playcalling are actually in a better position than the atrocious defense, as sad as that may be.

Shanarats arrogance is the problem. It stems from being able to replace RB's and find success easily. That mentality has run unchecked for years and now it came home and bit your team in the ass. Jake Plummer was not the problem last season. He had an aging WR ( Rod Smith ) who could not get proper separation, inconsistent TE play and crappy RB's. On the defensive side of the ball... your front line has been suspect for years and nothing has been done about it.

Back to my point. the over grown rodent is calling the plays and is not able to trust cutler with the offense. All those wild Elway like passes excite the fans, but they are dangerous. Cutler is throwing off the back foot on almost every play and has the tendency to pull the Jake Plummer backwards pass at any given time... The truth is your team is a mess on both sides of the ball and there is only one scapegoat... Maybe 2 Bowlen and the Rodent!

[Maximus]

It's fun Mr.155 Post Hero.... the board veterans are talking now and prefer the n00bs sit back and watch


Thanks
RR

Where do these re-re's come from... Maybe the meltdown will clear OM out and we can start having some fun again... Get rid of the fairweather donkey fans

Brandon marshall was right!

[FrontRowSeat1]

I hate when truth hurts. Raiders still have dibs on NFL suckage but you cannot argue with the logic he spews. Painful. But so true

[Rohirrim]

The Broncos should watch the film of the game and see who was yucking it up and thought that humiliation was funny. Then, I would immediately get on the phones and start trading all those players for draft picks and whatever else I could get for them - regardless of who they are, or who they think they are. There's loads of players sitting out there on the wire or arena league, or Europe, or the CFL who would come in here and bust their asses to play here. given the effort we're getting now, what difference would it make? Then you go into April with a ****load of picks. When this season ends, you fire all the coaches and you start from scratch.

[oubronco]

The Broncos should watch the film of the game and see who was yucking it up and thought that humiliation was funny. Then, I would immediately get on the phones and start trading all those players for draft picks and whatever else I could get for them - regardless of who they are, or who they think they are. There's loads of players sitting out there on the wire or arena league, or Europe, or the CFL who would come in here and bust their asses to play here. given the effort we're getting now, what difference would it make? Then you go into April with a ****load of picks. When this season ends, you fire all the coaches and you start from scratch.

DAMN LOL

[Raiders Rock]

We already tried that for 4 years and it didn't work

[Spider]

get back to basics ............

[Beantown Bronco]

I'm not a Gold basher but let's look at the facts.

To be fair, I don't expect LB's to cover 30 yards down field. But, Gold has been the whipping boy on big TE play so far this year. It's not that it happens on all plays, but it is happening on very important plays (game breaking TD's).

If you actually looked at the facts, you'd see that Gold has been in coverage for well over 100 plays so far this season (probably around 120-130), and he's gotten beat for maybe 3 or 4 important plays (and one of those was against a #1 WR - 30 yards down the field - which everyone acknowledges is not the job of a LB).

Those are the facts.

People here keep perpetuating this myth that he cannot cover anyone any more, yet he's actually getting beat in coverage very little. Outside of Clark a few times, who also burns CBs and safeties regularly, and V. Jackson (a #1 WR); please name these numerous times he's getting beat by more than a 5 yard dumpoff or checkdown pass. Anyone?

[orinjkrush]

bowlen needs to start crackin the whip. it starts and ends there. everybody has been resting on decades old laurels. the talent is almost there, the scheme on D so far sucks.

[telluride]

Well, we need to do a better job of drafting, for one. We simply don't deepen our roster each year with quality draft picks, as the Pats/Indy/etc. do. We have a lousy GM, and too many "asst head coaches." Fewer coaches on the teat, more young players.

[fontaine]

I'm hesitant to make a judgement on the play calling.

When your team is down 14 in the first few minutes of the game then down 20 at the half then all play calling pretty much goes out the window.

Our offense has shown that they are capable (not consistent yet) of churning out clock burning drives on the back of the ground games and Cutler has been most effective working our the play action and using his arm to throw into tight spot to our big targets.

That's how our offense wins. That's how our offense scores.

Until our defense promptly buckles like rotten wood and completely takes the O out of the game. I think we have to make changes along the front 7 starting with the LBers.

But then again I have no idea whether this D is even going to be running Bates' schemes after the bye. The past two weeks they sure haven't so it's anyone's guess. It really looks like to me that our Defense is going week to week trying to plug holes and nodody along the front four is getting into any sort of rhythym bar Dumervil.

[TailgateNut]

Let's see:

1. Tackle
2. Run
3. Sack
4. Cover
5. Don't fumble


I think that's more than our current cast of goobers can handle.

Once they master the basics, we'll toss in a few plays!

...oh I almost forgot, don't f-in celebrate one good play when the other team is handing you your asses!

[cutthemdown]

I don't think it can be fixed but to try I would bench Gold, move DJ to weakside, Webster to MLB, and start anyone but gold at ssl.

[Rohirrim]

I'll tell you one thing I would do. Put them in pads Monday morning and have them play in them until the following Friday. Full on scrimmages every morning. And every player that drags his butt runs laps. And if they bitch, they wear a pink uniform and run a gauntlet. And if they don't like it, pack your ****ing bags. I'd have them so pissed off by the time Pittsburgh rolls into town they'd be ripping off chicken heads with their teeth.

[kmonty]

Maybe drastic changes ISN'T what this team needs. We've progressively gotten worse, week after week, in the defensive yards and points allowed. Each week, some strange move is made across the defensive line, and it's consistently making us worse.

How about just letting the guys grow together as a unit and improve, and stop grasping at straws.

[NFLBRONCO]

If a decent MLB could be had I'd do that and move DJ outside bench Gold. Then just hope we get better each week.

[DeuceOfClub]

Sign a kickoff specialist. I don’t care about roster spot.
There must be someone out there that can kick the ball 80 yards regardless of altitude or weather.

[loborugger]

]I'd say do some serious scouting on the waiver wire or potential trades.[/B] One good pick-up at LB or DT could make a HUGE difference.

An example is Kris Jenkins if he's still available.

Another thing is that they have to let Cutler throw more. They also have to let him throw more in pressure situations. He's gonna make mistakes, that's a given. But right now the offense looks like the Jake Plummer led offense. Convservative and void of big-game changing plays. They can't just do two runs and a pass in the flat every time they get into the redzone. With Scheffler and Graham they should own the middle of a defense and put huge pressure because of our match-ups outside with Marshall and Walker (hopefully soon).

One last thing... I think they have to find a way to get young. Start playing some young guys (where it makes sense -- don't quit). Guys like Meyers, Kuper, Scheffler, Martinez, Crowder, Moss etc should see playing time. With the veterans we know what we have and the ceiling is some-what limited. With kids, they can mature and come-of-age during the season to improve this team and its prospects.

This team also needs some leaders to step up. We can't panic given that we are tied for the division lead. There are ways to right the ship if we can bring the level of intensity, concentration, and confidence back up to par. There is something troubling this team that must be worked out through the emergence of team leaders.

Great idea. Its not like the waiver wires have been picked over by 31 other teams like a bunch of street walkers on a payday friday.

I have an idea... no one on here has a f-ing clue how to run an NFL franchise. Esp the trolls that are showing up in force over the last few weeks.... Ya, I know you some of the Faider fans have been here for 3 or 4 years and have 3 grand or so posts, but face if fellas - you only kick us when we're down.

[Popps]

why have you been here? does a game that has absolutely no effect on your life mean so much that you have to go to a FAN FORUM of another team just to talk trash? i dont understand it?

Oh, don't worry, man. He disappeared for a couple years like all raider "fans" do when times get tough. He'll be gone again, shortly. Trust me.

[Bronco Billy]

I'm hesitant to make a judgement on the play calling.

When your team is down 14 in the first few minutes of the game then down 20 at the half then all play calling pretty much goes out the window.

Our offense has shown that they are capable (not consistent yet) of churning out clock burning drives on the back of the ground games and Cutler has been most effective working our the play action and using his arm to throw into tight spot to our big targets.

That's how our offense wins. That's how our offense scores.

Until our defense promptly buckles like rotten wood and completely takes the O out of the game. I think we have to make changes along the front 7 starting with the LBers.

But then again I have no idea whether this D is even going to be running Bates' schemes after the bye. The past two weeks they sure haven't so it's anyone's guess. It really looks like to me that our Defense is going week to week trying to plug holes and nodody along the front four is getting into any sort of rhythym bar Dumervil.

I agree. The offense only needs to start finishing the drives. For as little as they have the ball, they are picking up good yards. We always have trouble against SD and 3-4 defenses in particular. I think our offense is the very least of our worries and will eventually catch on - barring more major injuries. Walker needs to be healthy and Nalen's and Henry's replacements need to step up.

Our defense is brutal. We are capable of sticking 9 men in the box and stopping the run at times, but we leave Gold by himself to cover Gates / Clark, which he is going to lose. When we drop back our coverage to play pass is when I noticed that we really get killed on the ground. I don't ever remember a team get run on so much on 3rd and 6 and not be able to prevent the first down. It's embarrassing. We never blitz anymore. While I'm not suggesting going "Coyer" or anything with our blitzes. We need to show more looks and be more creative. Hell, we can blitz Gold if Dumervil is fast enough to cover a TE? I know I'm grasping now.

[yavoon]

play 8 in the box.

trust cutler more.

talk about draft picks.

[Wes Mantooth]

Blitz all the time. Seems that a few years ago, we blitzed the house all the way to the AFC championship game because we couldn't create a pass rush. Why not now?

[Sassy]

Hire the Bills ST coach ;D

[Bronco Billy]

Blitz all the time. Seems that a few years ago, we blitzed the house all the way to the AFC championship game because we couldn't create a pass rush. Why not now?

They'll beat us with screens. But, right now anything different can't be any worse.

[Bronco Billy]

Hire the Bills ST coach ;D

I was actually thinking that when watching the game tonight. But, he'd still have to work with Hixon.

[Sassy]

That was the idea of a Maner or two...give me Terrence Mcghee.

[PRBronco]

I don't understand how it's so hard to find a 300+ pound professional athlete with even an ounce of desire. Desire to win, not hit the buffet.

[Sassy]

I was actually thinking that when watching the game tonight. But, he'd still have to work with Hixon.

Hixon??? We cut Hixon.

[Meck77]

bowlen needs to start crackin the whip. it starts and ends there.

That is what I'm saying. If I were Bowlen I'd line up every employee I had on the field from Shanny down to the waterboy and let them all know that nobody is above getting fired and explain what the goals of this team are because I'm not sure everyone understands them at the moment.

Forget all the X's and O's. This team just gave up on Sunday. There is no reason we should have been beaten down that badly.

THIS ISN'T SHANNY'S TEAM like so many like to claim...THIS IS BOWLEN'S TEAM...

[fontaine]

I don't understand how it's so hard to find a 300+ pound professional athlete with even an ounce of desire. Desire to win, not hit the buffet.

I think that's the main issue with Bates' scheme. It relies on having two 300+ lb DTs who just clog gaps all day. It takes a certain grunt mentality to do that play after play and allow others to get the glory, especially when you're only reward is to see more double teams. Those kind of guys, who have that mentality along with the physical talent, are very tough to find.

At least with Coyer the idea was to have DTs that were athletic guys who were asked to attack the gaps and generate pressure up the middle (obviously not all the time but you get the idea).

I think the team really needs to make a philosophical decision in the offseason about the future of our defense.

All the high profile Defenses in the league have an identity and have had it for years. The Bears run an aggressive front four that rush upfield, same with Tampa, the Steelers and Pats have 3-4 defenses. Rome wasn't built in a day and I genuinely think the team is just seeing the results of constant change along the Defense. We went from a Ray Rhodes D with heavy run cloggers at DT to a fast Tampa Bay hybrid D with Coyer where all four DL had to be fast aggressive players and now to an entirely different philosophy.

It shows no vision of the future, how we'll be drafting down the years for D and hence we don't really have any specialist coaches on the D.

What I'm trying to say is we have a philosophy on our Offense with Shanahan and Bobby Turner. We know the type of RBs, OL, WRs we'll be targetting and those guys have gotten very good at bringing those type of players in and we've been the most successful rushing team in the last decade because of that.

There is no such philosophy to our D. I say enough to flip flopping around. You make a decision in the offseason going by the results from this year and make a decision about our front 7. Do we go 3-4, 4-3 Tampa, or 4-3 Bates. Stick to that decision and gut it out for the next two seasons by drafting and bringing in specific players to play to that philosphy. The schemes are not the problem as long as we find the talent to execute it.

The great news is that with Cutler, Denver has solved the hardest part of the puzzle in finding a franchise QB. This kid is legit and in another one or two seasons when he's become a great QB, IF we stick to a defensively philosophy (instead of changing DLs and D-Coaches) then that's about the time we'll have a solid dependable D with Champ still around near his peak.

[BroncoBuff]

I've said it before, but here goes:
1. Order 100 of the ORANGE PANTS with the navy swoosh that matches the orange jersey.
2. Tell the fans we're having an old fashioned "Orange Sunday" on a winnable game vs. Chefs
3. Ask fans to wear orange like the old days.
4. Like 2003 with the Navy vs. Raiders on MNF, warm up in orange jerseys and white pants ...
5. then right before the anthem, make the change and come busting outta the locker room in ...
ALL ORANGE!

That Raider MNF game was the best 1st quarter in Broncos history imo ... Plummer hot, Sharpe TD catch, Berry sack, Raiders were negatove offensive yards, 21-0 .... We'd gain some team unity and togetherness, not to mention old-fashioned fan excitement that's sorely missing now. BUT: It's gotta be a winnable game.

[fontaine]

Oh, don't worry, man. He disappeared for a couple years like all raider "fans" do when times get tough. He'll be gone again, shortly. Trust me.

Yeah I don't mind these raider fans since the major reason why Oakland is crawling out the gutter is because they got our OL hand me downs (cooper, green) to go with our zone blocking system after years of belly aching about our run blocking.

I guess the fade finally are going by the old saying, "If you can't beat'em, join'em."

And we really did beat the "raider mystique" out of them over the years.

[defenseman]

How to improve? Quality perfomances normally abound when the individuals involved are "inspired" to do well. Putting the team, and getting that "W" above themselves. In short, the broncos are not much of a TEAM right now, and are playing uninspired football. A collection of talent, misdirected presently. NOT on the same page emotionally nor technically. They need to find the buttons to push to inspire these guys to play as a team, the rest will fall into place.......eventually.....dman

[Rohirrim]

I think that's the main issue with Bates' scheme. It relies on having two 300+ lb DTs who just clog gaps all day. It takes a certain grunt mentality to do that play after play and allow others to get the glory, especially when you're only reward is to see more double teams. Those kind of guys, who have that mentality along with the physical talent, are very tough to find.

At least with Coyer the idea was to have DTs that were athletic guys who were asked to attack the gaps and generate pressure up the middle (obviously not all the time but you get the idea).

I think the team really needs to make a philosophical decision in the offseason about the future of our defense.

All the high profile Defenses in the league have an identity and have had it for years. The Bears run an aggressive front four that rush upfield, same with Tampa, the Steelers and Pats have 3-4 defenses. Rome wasn't built in a day and I genuinely think the team is just seeing the results of constant change along the Defense. We went from a Ray Rhodes D with heavy run cloggers at DT to a fast Tampa Bay hybrid D with Coyer where all four DL had to be fast aggressive players and now to an entirely different philosophy.

It shows no vision of the future, how we'll be drafting down the years for D and hence we don't really have any specialist coaches on the D.

What I'm trying to say is we have a philosophy on our Offense with Shanahan and Bobby Turner. We know the type of RBs, OL, WRs we'll be targetting and those guys have gotten very good at bringing those type of players in and we've been the most successful rushing team in the last decade because of that.

There is no such philosophy to our D. I say enough to flip flopping around. You make a decision in the offseason going by the results from this year and make a decision about our front 7. Do we go 3-4, 4-3 Tampa, or 4-3 Bates. Stick to that decision and gut it out for the next two seasons by drafting and bringing in specific players to play to that philosphy. The schemes are not the problem as long as we find the talent to execute it.

The great news is that with Cutler, Denver has solved the hardest part of the puzzle in finding a franchise QB. This kid is legit and in another one or two seasons when he's become a great QB, IF we stick to a defensively philosophy (instead of changing DLs and D-Coaches) then that's about the time we'll have a solid dependable D with Champ still around near his peak.

The key to this is, like you said, you are going to have a hard time finding Bates DTs coming out of college these days. Who plays that defense? Look at the top two DTs in college right now, Dorsey and Ellis. They are both athletic, rushing, disrupting, penetrating style of players. You're not going to bring them in and turn them into road plugs. Waste of talent. Then, if you find two of those Bates DTs, what if one gets hurt? It's overspecialization.

It's like in nature, do you want to be a small niche creature like the panda who only eats one kind of eucalyptus, or do you want to be like a black bear who can't eat pretty much anything that comes along. IMO, you build a D that responds to what kind of players you can use coming out of college. The Broncos have the kind of corners now that allow them to go in any direction they want. IMO, what they have the personnel that they are closest to right now is the Tampa 2. Next season they could use the draft and FA to get a real cover 2 MLB, a couple of DTs (Dorsey or Ellis please!) and a safety (although I think Hamza is great for that D and I don't have as low an opinon of Cox as many on this board do). Once it was up and running, you'd have a much easier time replacing missing parts than you would with the Bates scheme.

Plus, the Tampa 2 (or some form of it) is an excellent base D for the teams the Broncos face. I've always believed, and shouted it on this board, that the best way to destroy the Colts or Pats is to have a middle rush that destroys the pocket, and destroys the running lanes. Build a Tampa 2 and then draft Dorsey in April. Let Bates go back into retirement unless he wants use his talents to create new variations on the Tampa 2.

[Rock Chalk]

It's fun Mr.155 Post Hero.... the board veterans are talking now and prefer the n00bs sit back and watch


Thanks
RR

You crack me up with that weak post count smack RR.

[fontaine]

The key to this is, like you said, you are going to have a hard time finding Bates DTs coming out of college these days. Who plays that defense? Look at the top two DTs in college right now, Dorsey and Ellis. They are both athletic, rushing, disrupting, penetrating style of players. You're not going to bring them in and turn them into road plugs. Waste of talent. Then, if you find two of those Bates DTs, what if one gets hurt? It's overspecialization.

It's like in nature, do you want to be a small niche creature like the panda who only eats one kind of eucalyptus, or do you want to be like a black bear who can't eat pretty much anything that comes along. IMO, you build a D that responds to what kind of players you can use coming out of college. The Broncos have the kind of corners now that allow them to go in any direction they want. IMO, what they have the personnel that they are closest to right now is the Tampa 2. Next season they could use the draft and FA to get a real cover 2 MLB, a couple of DTs (Dorsey or Ellis please!) and a safety (although I think Hamza is great for that D and I don't have as low an opinon of Cox as many on this board do). Once it was up and running, you'd have a much easier time replacing missing parts than you would with the Bates scheme.

Plus, the Tampa 2 (or some form of it) is an excellent base D for the teams the Broncos face. I've always believed, and shouted it on this board, that the best way to destroy the Colts or Pats is to have a middle rush that destroys the pocket, and destroys the running lanes. Build a Tampa 2 and then draft Dorsey in April. Let Bates go back into retirement unless he wants use his talents to create new variations on the Tampa 2.

I pretty much agree to everything you've said here, especially about the part where our current defensive talent (apart from DTs) most closely fits that of a Tampa 2 defense where the front four are counted on to generate pressure.

This is where I would like to see our defense headed.

The ironic thing of it is though, when we finally get pass rush help in Rice/Moss and Doom maturing, instead of continuing along the Tampa 2 road we ditch Coyer and pretty much scrap the entire thing GOING BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD.

Now we need two new DTs (when Warren would have sufficed if we had kept Tampa 2), we need two new LBers and when we FILL THOSE POSITIONS we'll need two new safeties to replace the aging Fergy/Lynch. In another year Marcus Thomas and Warren would have been a formidable DT tandem that could have generated real pressure up the middle.

As it is what the hell do we do with Thomas? Isn't he a one gap penetrating tackle rather than the run clogger Bates D requires?

I guess we move him to Middle or Sam LB huh Bates?

I really don't get it. We went years with a system that was working during the regular season and all we needed was the pass rushers. Now we don't have ANY system that works, but we've got the pass rushers who no longer matter because teams can run the ball on us all day.

Whatta****up.

[fontaine]

I think Shanny did what he ALWAYS has done on Defense.

Look for a quick, cheap solution and the line Jim Bates sold about pass rush, Mike bought hook line and stinker.

[bronco militia]

That is what I'm saying. If I were Bowlen I'd line up every employee I had on the field from Shanny down to the waterboy and let them all know that nobody is above getting fired and explain what the goals of this team are because I'm not sure everyone understands them at the moment.

Forget all the X's and O's. This team just gave up on Sunday. There is no reason we should have been beaten down that badly.

THIS ISN'T SHANNY'S TEAM like so many like to claim...THIS IS BOWLEN'S TEAM...


the last thing this team needs is a meddling owner

[Rohirrim]

I pretty much agree to everything you've said here, especially about the part where our current defensive talent (apart from DTs) most closely fits that of a Tampa 2 defense where the front four are counted on to generate pressure.

This is where I would like to see our defense headed.

The ironic thing of it is though, when we finally get pass rush help in Rice/Moss and Doom maturing, instead of continuing along the Tampa 2 road we ditch Coyer and pretty much scrap the entire thing GOING BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD.

Now we need two new DTs (when Warren would have sufficed if we had kept Tampa 2), we need two new LBers and when we FILL THOSE POSITIONS we'll need two new safeties to replace the aging Fergy/Lynch. In another year Marcus Thomas and Warren would have been a formidable DT tandem that could have generated real pressure up the middle.

As it is what the hell do we do with Thomas? Isn't he a one gap penetrating tackle rather than the run clogger Bates D requires?

I guess we move him to Middle or Sam LB huh Bates?

I really don't get it. We went years with a system that was working during the regular season and all we needed was the pass rushers. Now we don't have ANY system that works, but we've got the pass rushers who no longer matter because teams can run the ball on us all day.

Whatta****up.

Exactly! I've been completely mystified by this. We were right on the cusp of having a good Tampa 2 setup and then Shanahan brings in Bates, who dismantles everything and now we're in the friggin toilet with a roster full of one gappers. It's just nuts.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

As for ST? Who knows, apart from that stupid fumble our STs actually played ok. Maybe they're coming around?

Sorry Fontaine, but they can't cover kicks and the blocking is terrible. both of those can only be cured if the players want to do the job. Won't happen this year, but their needs to be a bunch of turnover among the backup players that play special teams.

[telluride]

The key to this is, like you said, you are going to have a hard time finding Bates DTs coming out of college these days. Who plays that defense? Look at the top two DTs in college right now, Dorsey and Ellis. They are both athletic, rushing, disrupting, penetrating style of players. You're not going to bring them in and turn them into road plugs. Waste of talent. Then, if you find two of those Bates DTs, what if one gets hurt? It's overspecialization.

It's like in nature, do you want to be a small niche creature like the panda who only eats one kind of eucalyptus, or do you want to be like a black bear who can't eat pretty much anything that comes along. IMO, you build a D that responds to what kind of players you can use coming out of college. The Broncos have the kind of corners now that allow them to go in any direction they want. IMO, what they have the personnel that they are closest to right now is the Tampa 2. Next season they could use the draft and FA to get a real cover 2 MLB, a couple of DTs (Dorsey or Ellis please!) and a safety (although I think Hamza is great for that D and I don't have as low an opinon of Cox as many on this board do). Once it was up and running, you'd have a much easier time replacing missing parts than you would with the Bates scheme.

Plus, the Tampa 2 (or some form of it) is an excellent base D for the teams the Broncos face. I've always believed, and shouted it on this board, that the best way to destroy the Colts or Pats is to have a middle rush that destroys the pocket, and destroys the running lanes. Build a Tampa 2 and then draft Dorsey in April. Let Bates go back into retirement unless he wants use his talents to create new variations on the Tampa 2.

Very insightful post. And I agree. The problem, I think, is that Shanny is too stubborn to admit a mistake with Bates. We're stuck with him for at least two seasons.

[TheDave]

play 8 in the box.

trust cutler more.

talk about draft picks.

Teams are having success when we stack 9 in the box... 8 isn't going to cut it.

[RaiderH8r]

I endorse the pink unis idea. Let the guys show up for practice to find pink unis hanging in their locker and a note that says, "Win your way out of them."

[Hotrod]

Stop the curse and bring back Mustard

[BroncoBen]

Ok.. here is my two cents.

The offense is going to be fine, just get back to running the ball. Being behind all the time is changing the way the Broncos like to play and control the clock. The defense and special teams are the problem with the team.

On defense I would scrape this Bates system and go back to rushing the QB with the whole defensive line not just the DEs. Blitz the linebackers more, you have Champ and Bly on the team let them play man.

Get back to being an attacking defense; push the pocket in the QBs face. Bump the WRs and TEs coming off the line, be physical.

Special teams is harder to fix, the problem is the coverage. Maybe play more starters, have Bly return punts, put Daniel Grahm in to bust the wedges.

[elsid13]

Stop the curse and bring back Mustard

Fess up. Mustard owes you money and you lien on this pay check right???