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Spider
10-05-2007, 07:37 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/washington/04interrogate.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin







Secret U.S. Endorsement of Severe Interrogations

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By SCOTT SHANE, DAVID JOHNSTON and JAMES RISEN
Published: October 4, 2007

This article is by Scott Shane, David Johnston and James Risen.
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WASHINGTON, Oct. 3 — When the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.

But soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.

Mr. Gonzales approved the legal memorandum on “combined effects” over the objections of James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, who was leaving his job after bruising clashes with the White House. Disagreeing with what he viewed as the opinion’s overreaching legal reasoning, Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it.

Later that year, as Congress moved toward outlawing “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment, the Justice Department issued another secret opinion, one most lawmakers did not know existed, current and former officials said. The Justice Department document declared that none of the C.I.A. interrogation methods violated that standard.

The classified opinions, never previously disclosed, are a hidden legacy of President Bush’s second term and Mr. Gonzales’s tenure at the Justice Department, where he moved quickly to align it with the White House after a 2004 rebellion by staff lawyers that had thrown policies on surveillance and detention into turmoil.

Congress and the Supreme Court have intervened repeatedly in the last two years to impose limits on interrogations, and the administration has responded as a policy matter by dropping the most extreme techniques. But the 2005 Justice Department opinions remain in effect, and their legal conclusions have been confirmed by several more recent memorandums, officials said. They show how the White House has succeeded in preserving the broadest possible legal latitude for harsh tactics.

A White House spokesman, Tony Fratto, said Wednesday that he would not comment on any legal opinion related to interrogations. Mr. Fratto added, “We have gone to great lengths, including statutory efforts and the recent executive order, to make it clear that the intelligence community and our practices fall within U.S. law” and international agreements.

More than two dozen current and former officials involved in counterterrorism were interviewed over the past three months about the opinions and the deliberations on interrogation policy. Most officials would speak only on the condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of the documents and the C.I.A. detention operations they govern.

When he stepped down as attorney general in September after widespread criticism of the firing of federal prosecutors and withering attacks on his credibility, Mr. Gonzales talked proudly in a farewell speech of how his department was “a place of inspiration” that had balanced the necessary flexibility to conduct the war on terrorism with the need to uphold the law.

Associates at the Justice Department said Mr. Gonzales seldom resisted pressure from Vice President Dick Cheney and David S. Addington, Mr. Cheney’s counsel, to endorse policies that they saw as effective in safeguarding Americans, even though the practices brought the condemnation of other governments, human rights groups and Democrats in Congress. Critics say Mr. Gonzales turned his agency into an arm of the Bush White House, undermining the department’s independence.

The interrogation opinions were signed by Steven G. Bradbury, who since 2005 has headed the elite Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department. He has become a frequent public defender of the National Security Agency’s domestic surveillance program and detention policies at Congressional hearings and press briefings, a role that some legal scholars say is at odds with the office’s tradition of avoiding political advocacy.

Mr. Bradbury defended the work of his office as the government’s most authoritative interpreter of the law. “In my experience, the White House has not told me how an opinion should come out,” he said in an interview. “The White House has accepted and respected our opinions, even when they didn’t like the advice being given.”

The debate over how terrorist suspects should be held and questioned began shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, when the Bush administration adopted secret detention and coercive interrogation, both practices the United States had previously denounced when used by other countries. It adopted the new measures without public debate or Congressional vote, choosing to rely instead on the confidential legal advice of a handful of appointees.








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L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-06-2007, 12:41 AM
Just one more example of the Bush Crime Family acting like it's above the law.

spdirty
10-06-2007, 01:32 AM
I have a hypothetical question to all who are willing to answer it.

If you know of a nuke that will go off in Denver in 6 hours, and you catch a guy who knows exactly where that nuke is, how far are you willing to go to get that information? Are you willing to break the law to find it?
Would you cut off fingers and toes? Would you go Laraina Bobbit to find it?

Spider
10-06-2007, 03:58 AM
I have a hypothetical question to all who are willing to answer it.

If you know of a nuke that will go off in Denver in 6 hours, and you catch a guy who knows exactly where that nuke is, how far are you willing to go to get that information? Are you willing to break the law to find it?
Would you cut off fingers and toes? Would you go Laraina Bobbit to find it?
useless endeavor , think about it , the guy who knows has a shot at being a super legend in his home country and religion , to die for Allah ......He knows he will be dead soon , all the pain will go away ...... so what makes you think you could apply enough pain for him to crack ? and what if he does give you the wrong info just for you to stop ?
and the reason you are in this position is the army fired an interpreter cause he was a pole smoker ........

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-06-2007, 07:10 AM
...and what if he does give you the wrong info just for you to stop ?

That is precisely why torture doesn't work.


...and the reason you are in this position is the army fired an interpreter cause he was a pole smoker ........

:giggle:

True that is, brah.

spdirty
10-06-2007, 10:39 AM
useless endeavor , think about it , the guy who knows has a shot at being a super legend in his home country and religion , to die for Allah ......He knows he will be dead soon , all the pain will go away ...... so what makes you think you could apply enough pain for him to crack ? and what if he does give you the wrong info just for you to stop ?
and the reason you are in this position is the army fired an interpreter cause he was a pole smoker ........

So instead of whining about what you can't do, what are you gonna do with this guy and what are you gonna do to find the nuke?

Spider
10-06-2007, 10:45 AM
So instead of whining about what you can't do, what are you gonna do with this guy and what are you gonna do to find the nuke?
whining ? you ****ing asked , I laid it out for you , as you can see your scenario doesnt work .........as for what I do ? I slip the ****er some pork ,then tell him about it right before I put a bullet in him .......as for finding the Nuke ?
your ****ed

Bronco Bob
10-07-2007, 12:20 AM
Here's the real reason Bush still supports torture.

He's hoping the other candidates will waterboard Hillary to get her to answer the debate questions.

sisterhellfyre
10-07-2007, 02:02 AM
So instead of whining about what you can't do, what are you gonna do with this guy and what are you gonna do to find the nuke?

Get serious, spdirty.

This "24-Hours-Jack-Bauer-and-the-bomb-is-ticking" scenario has been trotted out every time since 9/12 that anyone questions the real usefulness of "coercive interrogation."

The truth is the scenario makes great TV, but the odds of it happening in real life are real slim.

If they've got their **** together well enough to get a bomb, make it workable by bypassing its safety circuits, AND get that bomb into the US, they've more than likely got their **** together enough to practice some decent security protocols of their own. Little things like compartmentalizing the operation, so that the people who smuggled the bomb in didn't know what they were hauling or where it was going.

Just because they're Muslims or Arabs or whatever doesn't mean they're stupid.

Regards,
m.

Bob
10-07-2007, 03:36 AM
Get serious, spdirty.

This "24-Hours-Jack-Bauer-and-the-bomb-is-ticking" scenario has been trotted out every time since 9/12 that anyone questions the real usefulness of "coercive interrogation."

The truth is the scenario makes great TV, but the odds of it happening in real life are real slim.

If they've got their **** together well enough to get a bomb, make it workable by bypassing its safety circuits, AND get that bomb into the US, they've more than likely got their **** together enough to practice some decent security protocols of their own. Little things like compartmentalizing the operation, so that the people who smuggled the bomb in didn't know what they were hauling or where it was going.

Just because they're Muslims or Arabs or whatever doesn't mean they're stupid.

Regards,
m.

The truth is we would torture the person under those circumstances -- many Americans dead, or mangle one scumb-bag? If your too sensitive to admit that this would not be done in a heart-beat -- you have too much Rosie-corrupted estrogen flowing through your veins, causing self-doubt and self-loathing at every corner.

Spider -- who knows if torture is going to work or not. But when body parts start getting snipped off, or if you are going to drown in a vat a pig's blood -- 72 virgins seems along distance away. So in a bizzare Jack B. situation where you KNEW the guy was guilty our FBI would make that sacrafice and go to prison if wrong -- in order to possibly save many. Even if there was only a "chance" that the information could be extracted in time.

sisterhellfyre
10-07-2007, 04:52 AM
The truth is we would torture the person under those circumstances -- many Americans dead, or mangle one scumb-bag? If your too sensitive to admit that this would not be done in a heart-beat -- you have too much Rosie-corrupted estrogen flowing through your veins, causing self-doubt and self-loathing at every corner.


Oh... oooohhhh, yeeeaaahhhh???

Well... well... well... you're just suffering from testosterone poisoning, Mr. Balls-for-Brains!

That's about how much sense your reply made, Bob.

If you'd like to evade the real question about the usefulness of torture by attacking me personally and engaging in teenage righteous vengeance fantasies, you go right ahead. Whatever makes you feel better.

In the meantime, in your hypothetical scenario, one American city has just gone boom. Somebody should have told the terrorist that it's against the rules to lie. Repeatedly. Knowing that every time he gave the name of a different possible target city, our forces would go racing off on still another wild goose chase.

Darn those terrorists. What are they teaching in those training camps, anyhow, so they don't follow the Hollywood scripts any more?

Regards,
m.

Spider
10-07-2007, 09:34 AM
Spider -- who knows if torture is going to work or not. But when body parts start getting snipped off, or if you are going to drown in a vat a pig's blood -- 72 virgins seems along distance away. So in a bizzare Jack B. situation where you KNEW the guy was guilty our FBI would make that sacrafice and go to prison if wrong -- in order to possibly save many. Even if there was only a "chance" that the information could be extracted in time.

err ok ....... I see clearly now ......

Bronco Bob
10-22-2007, 04:10 PM
From the dingy dungeons of the Dark Ages to today's shadowy holding
facilities, the use of torture as an interrogation tactic has evolved little
and possibly yielded even less, in terms of intelligence.

Inflicting pain to get information is a practice with deep roots as well
as modern relevance, in light of the recent statements by President George
W. Bush claiming the U.S. government does not use torture on political
prisoners, despite some evidence to the contrary.

But aside from the moral and legal implications, does ever produce reliable intelligence?

"That's the impossible question," said Darius Rejali, a political scientist
at Reed College in Oregon.

As a rule, torture is not an effective method of extracting information
from prisoners, most experts agree.

"If anything useful came out these interrogations in Iraq, we would have
heard about it," said Alfred McCoy, a University of Wisconsin-Madison
historian and author of "A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation, From
the Cold War to the War on Terror" (Holt Paperbacks, 2006).

Psychological techniques such as the water-boarding and sleep deprivation
that American operatives are suspected of using recently have a history
going back to behavior experiments from the 1950s, McCoy said.

"They were looking for a key to unlock the mind," McCoy said of the
CIA-funded research, "and the real breakthrough was that sensory
deprivation could produce a mental disorientation akin to psychosis."

A switch from more physical methods of torture to the psychological
approaches emerged in the following decades in places such as Vietnam,
Central America and Iran, McCoy said, without any definitive proof of their
effectiveness. When the "War on Terror" was initiated after the Sept. 11
attacks on the United States, the CIA had another training ground for this
kind of interrogation at its Guantanamo Bay detention center.

"Guantanamo Bay turned into a de-facto behavioral science laboratory,"
McCoy told LiveScience, where sensory deprivation and self-inflicted
pain—allowing a detainee who had stood for hours to sit if he would only
"cooperate"—regularly took place.

Though captives are less resentful when tortured psychologically,
it doesn't make their statements any more trustworthy, Rejali said.

"Torture during interrogations rarely yields better information than traditional
human intelligence, partly because no one has figured out a precise, reliable
way to break human beings or any adequate method to evaluate whether
what prisoners say when they do talk is true," Rejali wrote in a 2004 article
on Salon.com.

Democracies, rather than dictatorships or oppressive regimes, are more likely
to engage in this seemingly stealthy kind of torture because it is easier to
hide from journalists and citizens, Rejali said.

"Torture is a sign that a government either does not enjoy the trust of the people
it governs or cannot recruit informers for a surveillance system.

In both cases, torture to obtain information is a sign of institutional decay
and desperation," wrote Rejali, "and torture accelerates this process,
destroying the bonds of loyalty, respect and trust that keep information
flowing. As any remaining sources of intelligence dry up, governments have
to torture even more."

Psychological torture has persisted in theaters such as the Iraq War
not because it necessarily works, but because the CIA has such an
institutional history of the practice, McCoy said.

"The interrogators themselves tend to believe in its efficacy, and no matter
what you do, you can't stop them once they start," he said, noting that the
false sense of power one gets from inflicting torture only fuels more advanced brutality.

"The only reason the question [of urgency] appears more interesting for us
is because morally those are the only ways democratic societies are able
to justify it to themselves," he said, adding that "the search for heretics
was always a serious one, just as the search for terrorists is today."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20071019/sc_livescience/torturehasalonghistoryofnotworking

So beating the hell out of someone to find a nuke may make you feel good,
but in the end would probably be less effective than bringing him cookies
and milk.

TheDave
10-22-2007, 04:31 PM
...http://www.lautleben.com/newsbilder/s5_promo15.jpg

spdirty
10-22-2007, 09:54 PM
That f@cking Garofalo is gonna be on the new season.:flush:

ant1999e
10-22-2007, 10:00 PM
useless endeavor , think about it , the guy who knows has a shot at being a super legend in his home country and religion , to die for Allah ......He knows he will be dead soon , all the pain will go away ...... so what makes you think you could apply enough pain for him to crack ? and what if he does give you the wrong info just for you to stop ?
and the reason you are in this position is the army fired an interpreter cause he was a pole smoker ........

Is this really your answer?:kiddingme

Spider
10-22-2007, 10:14 PM
Is this really your answer?:kiddingme

shoot low sheriff the kid from Nebraska is mounted on a shetland

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-23-2007, 12:45 AM
As a rule, torture is not an effective method of extracting information
from prisoners, most experts agree.



But it sure gives "death to all Muslim" types like Yvonne (read: Bush's base) a boner. :~ohyah!:

http://www.bartcop.com/liberty-whip.gif

ant1999e
10-23-2007, 11:42 AM
shoot low sheriff the kid from Nebraska is mounted on a shetland

WTF?
Shetland:
NOUN:

1.A fine yarn made from the wool of sheep raised in the Shetland Islands and used for knitting and weaving.
2.A garment, especially a sweater, made of this yarn.

Bronco Bob
10-23-2007, 11:45 AM
WTF?
Shetland:
NOUN:

1.A fine yarn made from the wool of sheep raised in the Shetland Islands and used for knitting and weaving.
2.A garment, especially a sweater, made of this yarn.

I suspect SpiderMan was referring to a shetland pony.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/shetland/index.htm

Spider
10-23-2007, 11:47 AM
WTF?
Shetland:
NOUN:

1.A fine yarn made from the wool of sheep raised in the Shetland Islands and used for knitting and weaving.
2.A garment, especially a sweater, made of this yarn.
I am so sorry , I didnt know you were that slow , but shetland is also a pony ...
I didnt think I would have to add the pony , I thought you could pick up on it , but I WAS WRONG , I need to go into detail when answering you .......... so look up shetland pony , and take it from there my slow buddy

Spider
10-23-2007, 11:48 AM
I suspect SpiderMan was referring to a shetland pony.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/shetland/index.htm

LOL yeah but my buddy is a little slow ..........`

Spider
10-23-2007, 11:52 AM
But since we had this confusion , I had better explain the shoot low sheriff , the boy is on a shetland , saying ....... what that means is what i said went right over your head ( explanation , meaning you dont understand) so i have to use simpler words so you can understand ..........[meaning , dumb it down )

Rohirrim
10-23-2007, 11:54 AM
The truth is we would torture the person under those circumstances -- many Americans dead, or mangle one scumb-bag? If your too sensitive to admit that this would not be done in a heart-beat -- you have too much Rosie-corrupted estrogen flowing through your veins, causing self-doubt and self-loathing at every corner.

Spider -- who knows if torture is going to work or not. But when body parts start getting snipped off, or if you are going to drown in a vat a pig's blood -- 72 virgins seems along distance away. So in a bizzare Jack B. situation where you KNEW the guy was guilty our FBI would make that sacrafice and go to prison if wrong -- in order to possibly save many. Even if there was only a "chance" that the information could be extracted in time.

I'd call in Bruce Willis. He'd get it out of him. :approve: Or, how about the Governator? Yeah! That's it. The minute Ahnold walked in the room that rughead would start singing.

ant1999e
10-23-2007, 12:16 PM
I am so sorry , I didnt know you were that slow , but shetland is also a pony ...
I didnt think I would have to add the pony , I thought you could pick up on it , but I WAS WRONG , I need to go into detail when answering you .......... so look up shetland pony , and take it from there my slow buddy

Well forgive me there spider. Even though this is a Broncos web site, we're all not hippologists like yourself.

Spider
10-23-2007, 02:36 PM
Well forgive me there spider. Even though this is a Broncos web site, we're all not hippologists like yourself.

your forgiven ........