View Full Version : Patriot or dram queen ?
Spider
10-05-2007, 07:09 PM
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/05/angry-vet-cuts-down-mexican-flag-steals-american-flag-from-business-foxnews-calls-him-a-patriot/
personally I would have went inside and talked to the owner and tell him switch the flags or I will ........
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-06-2007, 12:38 AM
I have to go with patriot.
I saw it on the tube and I had to give the guy a round of applause.
Not only is flying the Mexican flag above the American flag illegal - it's emblematic of the contempt for American laws, customs, traditions, and values flaunted by many recent immigrants (many of whom are here illegally.)
Spider
10-06-2007, 12:46 AM
I feel he should have went inside called the owner of the place on it , then if the owner refused , then by all means do what you got to do ....give the owner a chance to correct the problem .........Chances are he wouldnt , so the guy gets to do what he did ;D
epicSocialism4tw
10-06-2007, 01:07 AM
Many of us just arent appreciative of what it means to live in America.
Sometimes it takes seeing how these things really affect people to put them in proper perspective, and to see a war veteran continue to fight for what he laid his life on the line for is a relevent and powerful sight to behold. I applaud him for making such a powerful statement in public.
This is where our government is failing us on this issue. They refuse to show respect to American citizens whose lives are immediately effected by the influx of people who arent educated in American language, culture, or common law. Including traffic law, pedestrian law, food handling law, customer service practices, vehicle upkeep, property upkeep, social norms and a plethora of other problems associated with the mass migration of the poor and uneducated people from rural Mexico.
I dont think that the problem is with Americans not being welcoming or gracious hosts, I think that it is with the fact that the government has slipped this one in the back door and forced the common American to deal with the problems while they deal with the devaluing dollar, the flatlining housing market, the post-911 white collar layoffs, and the plummetting blue collar wage in light of inflation.
The Mexican immigrants are not the problem. They are not bad people with bad intentions. As a group, they do not think that they are here to annex Texafornia into Mexico.
They are just looking for a better life, and we cant blame them for that. That is, in fact, the American dream.
Now, we need to find a way to make them Americans. A way that works. Its possible. However, I dont think that our government is capable of pulling it off.
spdirty
10-06-2007, 01:22 AM
Patriot. But not only would I cut the mexican flag down, I would burn it.
I have to go with patriot.
A vandal and thief? Why doesn't that surprise me?
Not only is flying the Mexican flag above the American flag illegal
Please provide a cite to the relevant Federal and/or Nevada law.
it's emblematic of the contempt for American laws, customs, traditions, and values flaunted by many recent immigrants (many of whom are here illegally.)
The owner of the flag is a US citizen - it's his flag that this buffoon stole.
And since when is it an American "value" to get so riled over a piece of fabric? Have you see how many US flag images get treated like crap yet no-one protests (perhaps you do).
This guy isn't a patriot.
Many of us just arent appreciative of what it means to live in America.
Indeed - theft of a piece of fabric is what it really means to be an American.
Sometimes it takes seeing how these things really affect people to put them in proper perspective, and to see a war veteran continue to fight for what he laid his life on the line for is a relevent and powerful sight to behold. I applaud him for making such a powerful statement in public.
He made a powerful statement, all right - that he's an idiot.
This is where our government is failing us on this issue. They refuse to show respect to American citizens whose lives are immediately effected by the influx of people who arent educated in American language, culture, or common law. Including traffic law, pedestrian law, food handling law, customer service practices, vehicle upkeep, property upkeep, social norms and a plethora of other problems associated with the mass migration of the poor and uneducated people from rural Mexico.
They used to say the same thing about the Irish, French, and Italians - and they were Catholic to boot.
Certainly can't have brown-skinned Spanish-speaking folks messing up our WASP America, can we?
They are just looking for a better life, and we cant blame them for that. That is, in fact, the American dream.
Indeed.
Now, we need to find a way to make them Americans. A way that works. Its possible. However, I dont think that our government is capable of pulling it off.
Why is it the government's job? Why isn't it our job?
How many Mexicans have you helped to learn English?
Remember, folks - next time you see someone who doesn't take off their hat during the National Anthem, kill them. Then Fox will call you a patriot.
(Paraphrasing a comment at C&L)
epicSocialism4tw
10-06-2007, 01:56 AM
Indeed - theft of a piece of fabric is what it really means to be an American.
Standing up for what's decent. That's what I think of when I think of the best of American culture.
They used to say the same thing about the Irish, French, and Italians - and they were Catholic to boot.
Most of these Mexicans are Catholic as well. Ever wonder why the Dems are so afraid of them?
Why is it the government's job? Why isn't it our job?
The government is our acting arm. It is the local government's job to establish and enforce law. You arent an anarchist as well, are you? In that stead I would say that you will never be satisfied here.
How many Mexicans have you helped to learn English?
Well, since you asked...
I help illegal immigrants every single day. In that assistance lies the constant struggle to overcome the language barrier, so I spend ALOT of time teaching basic english to what I would say is between 70 and 100 people a week.
Several people bring me words that they dont understand to explain to them. I do so in spanish and in english. I also help Iraqis, Iranians, Kurdish, Sudanese, Kenyans, people from Congo, Sierra Leon, India, Pakistan, Thailand, China, Zambia, and who knows where else. Many of whom are striving for citizenship.
Now.
What have YOU done?
Standing up for what's decent.
It's "indecent" to have any flag higher than the American flag? Why?
The First Amendment trumps the Flag Code - and note that the Flag Code is just that, a code, not a statute. Following it is entirely voluntary for private citizens.
See
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
for more details.
That's what I think of when I think of the best of American culture.
This guy doesn't represent the cream-o-the-crop - he's more of a bully who used force instead of reason, and who's an embarassment.
Most of these Mexicans are Catholic as well. Ever wonder why the Dems are so afraid of them?
If the Dems are afraid of Mexicans, then the GOP must be ****ting themselves in quivering terror about them.
The government is our acting arm. It is the local government's job to establish and enforce law. You arent an anarchist as well, are you? In that stead I would say that you will never be satisfied here.
The law against theft must be enforced, true. The "patriot" deserves a record and a fine, at least - assuming the owner decides to press charges.
Well, since you asked...
I help illegal immigrants every single day. In that assistance lies the constant struggle to overcome the language barrier, so I spend ALOT of time teaching basic english to what I would say is between 70 and 100 people a week.
Good for you. My apologies for being snide.
What have YOU done?
I certainly haven't destroyed someone else's property.
Bronco Bob
10-06-2007, 02:40 AM
Most of these Mexicans are Catholic as well. Ever wonder why the Dems are so afraid of them?
Was this a typo, did you mean the GOP? Who were the ones who skipped the
Univision debate? Certainly not the Dems. Hispanic support for the Dems
is huge, and no doubt got even bigger after the Univision snub by the GOP
candidates.
epicSocialism4tw
10-06-2007, 03:05 AM
Was this a typo, did you mean the GOP? Who were the ones who skipped the
Univision debate? Certainly not the Dems. Hispanic support for the Dems
is huge, and no doubt got even bigger after the Univision snub by the GOP
candidates.
A large majority of these folks are social conservatives, with a long deeply rooted tradition of social conservatism. Whatever breif flash-in-the-pan support that the dems receive from this bloc of voters will be short lived.
I dont think that the dems can keep these folks on the teet of welfare. They are industrious workers who want to own their own businesses.
Bronco Bob
10-06-2007, 03:38 AM
A large majority of these folks are social conservatives, with a long deeply rooted tradition of social conservatism. Whatever breif flash-in-the-pan support that the dems receive from this bloc of voters will be short lived.
I dont think that the dems can keep these folks on the teet of welfare. They are industrious workers who want to own their own businesses.
Hispanics have traditionally voted Democratic for decades now.
Don't expect them to switch to the GOP in time for the 2008 election.
Clinton pushes for powerful US Latino vote
WASHINGTON (AFP) — She doesn't try to speak Spanish but she still gets the cheers she seeks: Hillary Clinton is busily courting Hispanic Americans, whose political muscle could help put her in the White House.
Since launching her campaign, the New York senator and wife of ex-president Bill Clinton has methodically targetted Latino voters for support, not missing any large meeting of members of the nearly 50 million-strong Hispanic population, the biggest and fastest-growing US minority.
She has gone out of her way to appear on Spanish-language television, taken part in a debate on the massive Univision network and met Latino lawmakers.
And when they can, her staff chows down in Mexican food places, hoping to bolster Latino-friendly impressions of Clinton's campaign.
And it is paying off: the endorsements from the Hispanic community, wary over the national backlash against illegal immigration, are piling in.
Most recently she garnered the support of Antonio Villaraigosa, mayor of Los Angeles, the country' second-largest city and where about half of the inhabitants have Hispanic origins.
On Wednesday, the former first lady earned an ovation when she said in a forum for candidates organized by the Hispanic legislators caucus in Washington that she believed in the American dream and reaffirmed that the United States is "stronger because of our diversity."
Candidates in the coming primary races for the presidential nomination, and in the presidential election itself next November, ignore the Latino vote at their peril. The country is 14.8 percent Hispanic and the fight over proposals to issue tough new immigration legislation has mobilized many Latino voters.
Their support is not a given. While only 20 percent of Latinos call themselves Republicans, Republican President George W. Bush -- who does speak some Spanish -- got a surprising 42 percent of the Latino vote in the 2004 election.
But since then, many Republican Hispanics have soured on the party, seeing it has not done much for their community and that it has backed a tough crackdown on illegal immigrants that is unpopular with the community.
If they are mobilized, US Latino voters could make the difference in the 2008 race -- and so Clinton is working hard to woo them.
Clinton does not hesitate to advertise her connection to the community.
"Thirty five years ago, I traveled through South Texas, registering Latino voters with help from my friend Raul Yzaguirre," she tells the Washington audience, referring to the prominent Mexican American civil rights activist.
"We traveled many miles and knocked on many doors, encouraging people to take that first step to be at the table through the power of their vote," she says.
She unfailingly points out that her campaign Chief of Staff, Patty Solis Doyle, is the daughter of Mexican immigrants.
Latinos could play an even more decisive role that in previous years in the primaries, which begin in January. Previously the primaries were led by small states such as Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina that have fairly small Latino populations.
But this time around, large states with larger Hispanic populations like New York, Florida and California have pushed their primaries forward to February 5, 2008, in order to have a greater say in who the final candidates are.
The prize is within Clinton's grasp. Republican candidates appear to have forsaken the Latino vote, recognizing that the illegal immigration issue has poisoned the field for conservatives.
Republicans are blamed by many for blocking the progressive parts of the legislation, to regularize the status of some 12 million illegal immigrants, most of them Hispanic, that Bush himself backed.
Recently the top Republican candidates snubbed an invitation to debate key issues on the Spanish-language Univision, making it plain that they see little hope in aggressively competing for Hispanic votes.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hfYbPLFUmEw-IoEVUUVfPR7wRShQ
Spider
10-06-2007, 04:05 AM
Most of these Mexicans are Catholic as well. Ever wonder why the Dems are so afraid of them?
our Kids ........ever seen what Catholic preachers do to young boys ?
Spider
10-06-2007, 04:22 AM
Indeed - theft of a piece of fabric is what it really means to be an American. gotta take issue with you here .... it is more then just a piece of fabric , that flag has alot of meaning and history behind it , alot of bloodshed , alot of good men died defending what that flag stands for ........ yes it is theft , but the owner of the place was clearly disrespecting the flag , and this guy is a vet ......
He made a powerful statement, all right - that he's an idiot. making a stand for something to believe in doesnt make him an idiot ... over zealous maybe ......
They used to say the same thing about the Irish, French, and Italians - and they were Catholic to boot. no argument here
Certainly can't have brown-skinned Spanish-speaking folks messing up our WASP America, can we?
or homos ......
TailgateNut
10-06-2007, 09:18 AM
This ****ing guy is an american citizen and has the audacity to fly that ****ing beaner flag above the "red white and blue". He should count his blessings that the Vet didn't proceed to kick his ass.
I salute the Vet for doing what was right.
Spider, I disagree about talking to the owner first. **** that! He lives and operates a business on American soil. If he wants to fly his rag above the american flag, he should carry his ass back across the border.
BTW: W*gs, you make me sick! You, have the audacity to call this guy an idiot.
I Salute him!
I see Tailgate Nut is holding up the racist, nativist and xenophobic end of the argument.
All them damn spics should be forced back to Mexico, preferably with a gun to their (wet) backs, eh?
Spider
10-06-2007, 10:56 AM
Spider, I disagree about talking to the owner first. **** that! He lives and operates a business on American soil. If he wants to fly his rag above the american flag, he should carry his ass back across the border.
;D I believe in giving someone a chance to fix the problem before crashing down on them , now if it happens again or he refuses , then the gloves come off
The only thing the guy who flew the Mexican flag above the American flag "disrespected" was a custom - not a law. He's entirely within his rights to display the flag in any manner he so chooses. I wonder where the "partiot"'s outrage is when it gets to be around the 4th of July and the flag is used in ways that clearly violate the Flag Code. Does he go around with his knife and tearing down store displays that use the flag in their ads? Does he threaten TV station owners to stop showing ads that have the flag in them?
It's interesting that his tantrum was videotaped. How? Why? Was he attempting to rally Tailgate Nut and his ilk for something?
And his status as a veteran doesn't give him any special privileges.
Spider
10-06-2007, 11:04 AM
The only thing the guy who flew the Mexican flag above the American flag "disrespected" was a custom - not a law. He's entirely within his rights to display the flag in any manner he so chooses. I wonder where his outrage is when it gets to be around the 4th of July and the flag is used in ways that clearly violate the Flag Code. Does he go around with his knife and tearing down store displays that use the flag in their ads? Does he threaten TV station owners to stop showing ads that have the flag in them?
It's interesting that his tantrum was videotaped. How? Why? Was he attempting to rally Tailgate Nut and his ilk for something?
And his status as a veteran doesn't give him any special privileges.
an old saying for you W*GS ..... when in rome , do as the romans do ...... some violations are not as angering as others .... flying any other country's flag over the American flag will piss alot of people off
It will certainly piss people off - but that doesn't give the pissed the right to break the law (i.e., stealing) just because they're angry and/or a vet.
Here's Bush autographing a small flag:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bushflag.jpg
Let's get a big-ass knife and go after him for breaking the Flag Code!
Spider
10-06-2007, 11:18 AM
It will certainly piss people off - but that doesn't give the pissed the right to break the law (i.e., stealing) just because they're angry and/or a vet.
Here's Bush autographing a small flag:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bushflag.jpg
Let's get a big-ass knife and go after him for breaking the Flag Code!
Bush should have known`better ..
Rohirrim
10-06-2007, 11:18 AM
The only thing the guy who flew the Mexican flag above the American flag "disrespected" was a custom - not a law. He's entirely within his rights to display the flag in any manner he so chooses. I wonder where the "partiot"'s outrage is when it gets to be around the 4th of July and the flag is used in ways that clearly violate the Flag Code. Does he go around with his knife and tearing down store displays that use the flag in their ads? Does he threaten TV station owners to stop showing ads that have the flag in them?
It's interesting that his tantrum was videotaped. How? Why? Was he attempting to rally Tailgate Nut and his ilk for something?
And his status as a veteran doesn't give him any special privileges.
Wigs! Defender of the International Comintern of the Libertarians? I didn't realize you were such an internationalist. So, now people can come over to America and disrespect our customs because they mean nothing. Right? And we, as a people, have no right to our customs. Of course, if we went to their country and dissed their customs, we'd end up on a slab. How 'bout we fly the Saudi flag at Ground Zero?
spdirty
10-06-2007, 11:20 AM
It will certainly piss people off - but that doesn't give the pissed the right to break the law (i.e., stealing) just because they're angry and/or a vet.
Here's Bush autographing a small flag:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bushflag.jpg
Let's get a big-ass knife and go after him for breaking the Flag Code!
son of a bitch shouldve known better than to do that.
Wigs! Defender of the International Comintern of the Libertarians? I didn't realize you were such an internationalist. So, now people can come over to America and disrespect our customs because they mean nothing. Right? And we, as a people, have no right to our customs.
One of our customs is respect for individual rights (including freedom of speech) and tolerance of different opinions. This "patriot" goofball represents the exact opposite.
Should we strengthen the Flag Code into law? I thought you didn't care much for the Flag Desecration Amendment, so why the change in your views?
Of course, if we went to their country and dissed their customs, we'd end up on a slab.
And that's wrong, so that's why we don't (or at least shouldn't) do such things here, and which sets us apart. C'mon - it's a piece of cloth.
How 'bout we fly the Saudi flag at Ground Zero?
Why not?
American flag Wall of Shame:
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/wallofshame.htm
Where's that ZZ Top wannabe guy when ya really need him?!?
Bronco Bob
10-06-2007, 11:48 AM
Bush should have known`better ..
You could say that the same thing for just everything Bush has done
while in office - invading Iraq, appointing Brownie to head FEMA,
appointing Gonzo as AG, nominating Miers for the SCOTUS, etc.
Spider
10-06-2007, 11:51 AM
You could say that the same thing for just everything Bush has done
while in office - invading Iraq, appointing Brownie to head FEMA,
appointing Gonzo as AG, nominating Miers for the SCOTUS, etc.
I really wanted to like Bush , when he invaded Afghanistan I was with him 100% ... Now I wouldnt piss in his asshole if his guts were on fire .......
Rohirrim
10-06-2007, 12:05 PM
One of our customs is respect for individual rights (including freedom of speech) and tolerance of different opinions. This "patriot" goofball represents the exact opposite.
Should we strengthen the Flag Code into law? I thought you didn't care much for the Flag Desecration Amendment, so why the change in your views?
And that's wrong, so that's why we don't (or at least shouldn't) do such things here, and which sets us apart. C'mon - it's a piece of cloth.
Why not?
I believe in the guy's right to fly whichever flag he wants. But I also believe he's an idiot. I also happen to think that the guy who took it down was acting in the Thoreau tradition of civil disobedience. More power to him.
TailgateNut
10-06-2007, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by W*GS
The only thing the guy who flew the Mexican flag above the American flag "disrespected" was a custom - not a law. He's entirely within his rights to display the flag in any manner he so chooses. I wonder where the "partiot"'s outrage is when it gets to be around the 4th of July and the flag is used in ways that clearly violate the Flag Code. Does he go around with his knife and tearing down store displays that use the flag in their ads? Does he threaten TV station owners to stop showing ads that have the flag in them?
It's interesting that his tantrum was videotaped. How? Why? Was he attempting to rally Tailgate Nut and his ilk for something?
And his status as a veteran doesn't give him any special privileges.
Why don't you try to do this in Mexico, or in any other country, and wait to see what type of response you get.
You don't dis-respect our flag! Maybe you and the rest of the boulderites think it's ok, but then you ****ers think prairee dogs are holy!
Why don't you try to do this in Mexico, or in any other country, and wait to see what type of response you get.
So, Americans are no better than Mexicans...
You don't dis-respect our flag!
You support the right-wingers' attempts to protect the flag via a Constitutional amendment? Really - you're a wee fascist at heart, aren't you?
I believe in the guy's right to fly whichever flag he wants. But I also believe he's an idiot. I also happen to think that the guy who took it down was acting in the Thoreau tradition of civil disobedience. More power to him.
The "patriot" is a thief and vandal.
Rohirrim
10-06-2007, 01:20 PM
The "patriot" is a thief and vandal. Or, he was engaging in an act of civil disobedience. Depends how you want to look at it. I didn't realize you were such a "Hey, you kids get off my lawn!" kind of guy. ;D
Bronco Bob
10-06-2007, 01:26 PM
Or, he was engaging in an act of civil disobedience. Depends how you want to look at it. I didn't realize you were such a "Hey, you kids get off my lawn!" kind of guy. ;D
If the guy is that easy to enrage maybe he needs to be locked up somewhere
before he hurts somebody. You don't go onto someone's private property
and steal and vandalize their property just because you disagree with their
politics.
Or, he was engaging in an act of civil disobedience. Depends how you want to look at it.
I get it now - I can steal any candidate or other political issue sign you have in your yard, and you'll support me.
Thanks!
Spider
10-06-2007, 03:40 PM
I get it now - I can steal any candidate or other political issue sign you have in your yard, and you'll support me.
Thanks!
Roh went over your head by a mile , if this is your interpretation of his post
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-06-2007, 05:47 PM
The "patriot" is a thief and vandal.
I'm sure you would have said the same thing about the participants in the Boston Tea Party had you been around back in those days.
Rohirrim
10-06-2007, 06:02 PM
If the guy is that easy to enrage maybe he needs to be locked up somewhere
before he hurts somebody. You don't go onto someone's private property
and steal and vandalize their property just because you disagree with their
politics.
Given the current climate in the U.S. on this issue, whoever put those flags up like that either knew exactly what he was doing, or he's a complete moron. Do I have the right to tie a slab of bacon to my ass and run around in the woods? Sure. If a bear comes and starts removing my limbs, should I be shocked? Only if I'm an idiot, like the guy who put those flags up.
Roh went over your head by a mile , if this is your interpretation of his post
I'll just call my theft an "act of civil disobedience", and Ro will be on my side!
I'm sure you would have said the same thing about the participants in the Boston Tea Party had you been around back in those days.
You claimed that putting the Mexican flag above the American flag was illegal; have you found proof of that?
Oh, and where's the "real" Flight 77?
You're a couple bricks short of a load.
PS - The guys who pulled off the Boston Tea Party are far closer to me ideologically than they are to you.
Bronco Bob
10-06-2007, 06:17 PM
Given the current climate in the U.S. on this issue, whoever put those flags up like that either knew exactly what he was doing, or he's a complete moron. Do I have the right to tie a slab of bacon to my ass and run around in the woods? Sure. If a bear comes and starts removing my limbs, should I be shocked? Only if I'm an idiot, like the guy who put those flags up.
So basically the guy who attacked and stole this man's property is no better than a wild animal.
Given the current climate in the U.S. on this issue, whoever put those flags up like that either knew exactly what he was doing, or he's a complete moron. Do I have the right to tie a slab of bacon to my ass and run around in the woods? Sure. If a bear comes and starts removing my limbs, should I be shocked? Only if I'm an idiot, like the guy who put those flags up.
I see. So those folks close to you politically who have made political statements with flags (wearing a flag on the seat of their pants, forcing folks to step on a flag to make a comment, that sort of thing) are also idiots?
We should restrict our actions in case some jingoistic yahoo doesn't like what we have to say, eh?
So basically the guy who attacked and stole this man's property is no better than a wild animal.
He kinda looks like Grizzly Adams with the gratuitous beard-n-all, so yeah.
I have to go with patriot.
I saw it on the tube and I had to give the guy a round of applause.
Not only is flying the Mexican flag above the American flag illegal - it's emblematic of the contempt for American laws, customs, traditions, and values flaunted by many recent immigrants (many of whom are here illegally.)
You are spot on. the ONLY thing I worry about with an act like this, is that when folks take the law into their own hands -- the next time (unlike this act) it might be a Mexican yanking down an American flag down at Perkins to put up his nation's flag ontop --- so this time we root for the guy when he does something we agree with (and is doing it becuase the government is not doing thier job) but we are supposed to be a nation of laws. When is it ok to show civil disobediance?
Truth is, if I was on that sidewalk watching him do it -- I would have at minimum cheered him on. I am worried that if the government doesnt do something to deal with illegal immigrants, and other acts showing disrespect toward America that more and more guys like this are going to snap.
Remember, folks - next time you see someone who doesn't take off their hat during the National Anthem, kill them. Then Fox will call you a patriot.
(Paraphrasing a comment at C&L)
To you, is the American flag just a piece of fabric?
To you, is the American flag just a piece of fabric?
Indeed it is. It's more important to have the right to fly another flag above it than to make a law that forbids doing so. Protecting only the speech with which we agree makes the right a joke.
Bronco Bob
10-06-2007, 06:50 PM
You are spot on. the ONLY thing I worry about with an act like this, is that when folks take the law into their own hands -- the next time (unlike this act) it might be a Mexican yanking down an American flag down at Perkins to put up his nation's flag ontop --- so this time we root for the guy when he does something we agree with (and is doing it becuase the government is not doing thier job) but we are supposed to be a nation of laws. When is it ok to show civil disobediance?
Truth is, if I was on that sidewalk watching him do it -- I would have at minimum cheered him on. I am worried that if the government doesnt do something to deal with illegal immigrants, and other acts showing disrespect toward America that more and more guys like this are going to snap.
The trouble with people like this guy when they strike out in blind rage
is innocent people get caught up in the mix.
Like for example the Chinese man that was beaten to death by some
auto workers who who angry they lost their jobs to Japanese car makers.
Or the Sikh who was beaten by people angry about 9/11.
When you have roaming bands of hooligans out thumping Mexicans,
a lot of Americans are going to get hurt. A friend of mine tells how
people would tell him "Why don't you go back where you came from?"
But the thing is, his family was living in New Mexico when it was still
part of old Mexico. His family didn't come to America, America took
over where his family lived.
This man who vandalized that other man's property needs to be severely
punished so other people get the idea they can't do this sort of thing in
America.
Rohirrim
10-06-2007, 07:11 PM
Indeed it is. It's more important to have the right to fly another flag above it than to make a law that forbids doing so. Protecting only the speech with which we agree makes the right a joke.
Is it okay to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre if there is no fire?
It is interesting to me that this issue seems to cut across political boundaries – and I am grateful that it does.
So the one part of the ethical dilemma with this guy’s actions are: when is it ok to break the law of the land when making political speech or protecting a higher law?
Many situations are easy -- like your wife's water just broke, so you speed to the hospital, (or you are hungry and you need to get to Burger King before it closes.)
If you see that there is a looming danger to our country -- what laws can you break to keep your family safe? It depends right? It depends on the immediacy of the danger, and if legal political actions can head it off, it depends on the danger itself.
If you show disrespect toward the flag, and all that flag SHOULD represent to every American -- I guess to me -- it is almost more of a story that this Bozo store owner thought that he could do that in America and get away with it. This Mexican-American thought he was making a statement -- what statement was he trying to make? If he is a Mexican first, than I would hope that he keeps that viewpoint to himself. Hell, if I was living in anyone else’s country and had strong ties to my native country -- I wouldn’t dare put the American Flag above ANY county that I lived.
It gets at the core of the long-term survival of any nation – that those who come to live in it, adapt to it, and embrace it’s culture – and pay taxes, and live by the laws of the land. If they don’t live by the laws of the land – they should pay for the crime. As for me, I think if I see a Mexican flag flying above an American flag I will yank it down as well – and I will be happy to pay for the “crime” of public trespassing, stealing, destruction of property or whatever – any bets that the ACLU will sue this guy on behalf of the store owner?
The trouble with people like this guy when they strike out in blind rage
is innocent people get caught up in the mix.
Like for example the Chinese man that was beaten to death by some
auto workers who who angry they lost their jobs to Japanese car makers.
Or the Sikh who was beaten by people angry about 9/11.
When you have roaming bands of hooligans out thumping Mexicans,
a lot of Americans are going to get hurt. A friend of mine tells how
people would tell him "Why don't you go back where you came from?"
But the thing is, his family was living in New Mexico when it was still
part of old Mexico. His family didn't come to America, America took
over where his family lived.
Wonderful point that is funny, if there were not some many implications with it.
This man who vandalized that other man's property needs to be severely
punished so other people get the idea they can't do this sort of thing in
America.
That might have the opposite effect than what you would like (I know it would with me.) The "law" should be applied evenly with him -- just like anyone -- not as a hammer to make a point of him. When government acts like that it is by definition tyranny. When border patrol agents get more punishment than they should it makes Americans more enraged and disrepectful of the goverment -- as they see it as another example of the government, that should be protecting, that should be enforcing the laws of the land, that are not. They will see that Big Brother is not looking out for them but for big corporations, and/or future votes --
Rohirrim
10-06-2007, 07:23 PM
The trouble with people like this guy when they strike out in blind rage
is innocent people get caught up in the mix.
Like for example the Chinese man that was beaten to death by some
auto workers who who angry they lost their jobs to Japanese car makers.
Or the Sikh who was beaten by people angry about 9/11.
When you have roaming bands of hooligans out thumping Mexicans,
a lot of Americans are going to get hurt. A friend of mine tells how
people would tell him "Why don't you go back where you came from?"
But the thing is, his family was living in New Mexico when it was still
part of old Mexico. His family didn't come to America, America took
over where his family lived.
This man who vandalized that other man's property needs to be severely
punished so other people get the idea they can't do this sort of thing in
America.
I think this is a little bit over the top. This guy flying the Mexican flag above the American flag on American soil in the present political climate was goading. Philosophically, he was expressing free speech, but he was also violating social customs. The guy who took down the flag engaged in civil disobedience. He committed a crime and he should be charged for it; misdemeanor vandalism. So, he violated the law in an effort to defend social custom. The one guy was goading, the other guy felt insulted. I'm sure the courts will sort it out. That's what they are there for. Both individuals made a statement. Nobody got hurt. In no way does it compare to the examples you posted.
Indeed it is. It's more important to have the right to fly another flag above it than to make a law that forbids doing so. Protecting only the speech with which we agree makes the right a joke.
Being an American means something, and its symbols are important to preserve. I like the fact that you are a free-thinker, I just strongly disagree with you on this one because like chess -- moves we tolerate now, later can mean check-mate -- you see one move and say what's the big deal? Every nation that has fallen did so incrimentally -- and you may have noticed that we are incrimentally getting weaker on many fronts. You are concerned about teh free speech of teh store owner -- did he break a law as well?
I ask, becuase I do not know -- I thought that his flying a flag in teh way he did was illegal?
Bronco Bob
10-06-2007, 08:06 PM
Being an American means something, and its symbols are important to preserve. I like the fact that you are a free-thinker, I just strongly disagree with you on this one because like chess -- moves we tolerate now, later can mean check-mate -- you see one move and say what's the big deal? Every nation that has fallen did so incrimentally -- and you may have noticed that we are incrimentally getting weaker on many fronts. You are concerned about teh free speech of teh store owner -- did he break a law as well?
I ask, becuase I do not know -- I thought that his flying a flag in teh way he did was illegal?
If it is illegal then the police should handle it. If the man didn't like the way the
flag was being flown then he should have called the police and let the police
handle it.
If it isn't illegal then the first step should have been to go to the store
owner and inform the owner that the flag was being flown wrong.
(Apparently the store owner didn't even know he was flying the flag
wrong,)
If the store owner refused to comply the man could have organized
a boycott of the store and organized pickets to protest the store.
After the owner lost enough business then he might have gotten the hint.
But I still say you don't vandalize someone's property because you
don't agree with their politics.
orangeatheist
10-06-2007, 08:09 PM
Wow.
Where was all the outrage when THIS was posted:
I always thought you were not supposed to fly anything above the American flag. This guy who lives about a mile from me has been flying a flag that is all white with a blue square in the upper left portion, with a red cross in the center of the blue part, above the American flag.
Turned out to be the "Christian flag."
Since so many here are saluting this fella for ripping down the Mexican flag, I'll expect those same supporters to back a "patriot" who runs over to this other fella's place and rips down his Christian flag.
epicSocialism4tw
10-06-2007, 08:47 PM
Wow.
Where was all the outrage when THIS was posted:
Turned out to be the "Christian flag."
Since so many here are saluting this fella for ripping down the Mexican flag, I'll expect those same supporters to back a "patriot" who runs over to this other fella's place and rips down his Christian flag.
http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/d/d8/Crybaby.jpg
WAAAAAA!
Is it okay to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre if there is no fire?
Of course not. Lying isn't protected speech.
Crushaholic
10-06-2007, 09:19 PM
Not only did this guy STEAL the American flag from a US citizen, he wadded the American flag instead of folding it (like it should be done). This guy does not respect the American flag and is not a patriot.
Being an American means something, and its symbols are important to preserve.
The principles are more important than the symbols.
I like the fact that you are a free-thinker, I just strongly disagree with you on this one because like chess -- moves we tolerate now, later can mean check-mate -- you see one move and say what's the big deal?
I'd make the same analogy - except in the other direction. How long before we have a law that makes it illegal to criticize America, if we allow one goofball to use force and a criminal act to impose his beliefs, merely because he's offended?
Every nation that has fallen did so incrimentally -- and you may have noticed that we are incrimentally getting weaker on many fronts. You are concerned about teh free speech of teh store owner -- did he break a law as well?
No, he did not. There's no statute of which I'm aware that requires the US flag to be flown highest, just the voluntary following of the flag code.
This guy flying the Mexican flag above the American flag on American soil in the present political climate was goading.
What about when Abbie Hoffman had a flag on the seat of his pants, so he could sit on it? Is that "goading" and thus anyone who violated his rights committed a crime was merely engaging in civil disobedience and is thus excused?
Philosophically, he was expressing free speech, but he was also violating social customs.
The former is more important than the latter.
The one guy was goading, the other guy felt insulted.
First off, it's not at clear that the flag owner was "goading". Secondly, feeling insulted or offended isn't sufficient reason to violate the law. Thank goodness.
Wow.
Where was all the outrage when THIS was posted:
Turned out to be the "Christian flag."
Since so many here are saluting this fella for ripping down the Mexican flag, I'll expect those same supporters to back a "patriot" who runs over to this other fella's place and rips down his Christian flag.
I sense a :threadjac attempt. So, what about THIS issue? 80% of me "feels" for the vandal/patriot -- 20% is concerned that we are a nation of laws.
There are somethings that a person should be willing to go to jail for if a law is unjust, or if the laws of the land are not being enforced by the government. Not sure, but it appears that the store owner did not break a law here -- and as everyone is too lazy to find out for sure we may not have that fact (which should have some play in this debate.) The other thing this patriot did was act on his passion (what would have he done if someone would have attempted to stop him in that moment?) I think some have made the good point -- that he could have acted in several ways to bring about change -- but I tell you his action has spoken loudly -- because it was a spontanous act -- and has gotten people to think about this issue (which would have not been heard, if he had sponsored a little protest or two.) -- This is about so much more than Red, White and Blue material flapping in the breeze. If he is willing to man-up and take the penalty for his minor crime, than part of me says great. Why in the hell did this store owner think he could get away with flying the Mexican Flag over the American flag anyway? If you moved to Canada, Cuba, or France became a citizen, opened a store would you fly old glory above the nation's in which you now lived? I wouldnt --if I owned an American Burger joint in France (it would not get any business, but play with me here) I would not even fly the US flag. The hypenated American has the right to fly his flag -- I ahev teh right to think he is a jerk, and not buy anything from him. If I break the law in a moment of passion, I have teh right to be judged fairly for that minor crime, and not be made an example of -- from Big Brother, who more than anything wants to line its pockets with cash, while it sells "We The People" down the Rio Grand.
Rohirrim
10-07-2007, 01:08 AM
Of course not. Lying isn't protected speech.
You obviously haven't been paying attention to the Bush administration.
You obviously haven't been paying attention to the Bush administration.
Deflection isn't going to work for you.
Bronco Yoda
10-07-2007, 02:30 AM
# The United States Code establishes a protocol for the display of the American flag in relation to other flags displayed in the same location. The protocol can be found at 4 U.S.C. §7. The protocol is advisory and is not a criminal statute.
# There is no sanction for violation of the protocol and is not enforceable by local law enforcement.
# Nevada Revised Statutes contain provisions relating to the display of the American flag and the Nevada State flag. However, none of those provisions make it unlawful to violate the protocol established in the U.S. Code.
# There are no provisions in the Nevada Revised Statutes regarding the display of flags of other countries.
BMF Bronco
10-07-2007, 02:46 AM
... and has the audacity to fly that ****ing beaner flag above the "red white and blue"
errrrrrr, what kind of flag?
# The United States Code establishes a protocol for the display of the American flag in relation to other flags displayed in the same location. The protocol can be found at 4 U.S.C. §7. The protocol is advisory and is not a criminal statute.
# There is no sanction for violation of the protocol and is not enforceable by local law enforcement.
# Nevada Revised Statutes contain provisions relating to the display of the American flag and the Nevada State flag. However, none of those provisions make it unlawful to violate the protocol established in the U.S. Code.
# There are no provisions in the Nevada Revised Statutes regarding the display of flags of other countries.
Thanks for taking the time ...
Maybe we need a new law put into place?
Swedish Extrovert
10-07-2007, 12:05 PM
I have to go with patriot.
I saw it on the tube and I had to give the guy a round of applause.
Not only is flying the Mexican flag above the American flag illegal - it's emblematic of the contempt for American laws, customs, traditions, and values flaunted by many recent immigrants (many of whom are here illegally.)
I agree with you, but I voted Drama Queen... I mean who cares? Call the Police or something.
Some crazy goon stole a flag.
When I was volunteering at the Vietnam wall memorial (operating computers, helping vets find their war buddies, family, friends, etc. on the wall) I saw an American flag touch the soil... I took it, folded it, and gave it to an American Legion vet for disposal. Didn't make the news though.
Rohirrim
10-07-2007, 12:12 PM
Deflection isn't going to work for you.
This from the guy who brought up Abbie Hoffman. Hilarious!
Swedish Extrovert
10-07-2007, 12:28 PM
My point is Fox news always sensationalises news that isnt news.
I'm pretty moderate, but does anyonw actually think that Fox news is "fair and balanced?'
It all goes towards this paranoid conservative mindset that the liberals are attacking America.
This isn't any different than the two weeks Fox news dwelled on the "Betray Us?" ad. I mean it's like whatever happened to free speech.
As far as I know they're still dwelling on that gay last supper thing ad in San Francisco.
Who cares? Let the liberals have it.
This from the guy who brought up Abbie Hoffman. Hilarious!
Hate to deflate your self-inflated bubble (well, actually, I do) but Abbie Hoffman's actions vis-a-vis a US flag are entirely relevant to the thread. Was he "goading" when he had a flag on the seat of his pants? In the same manner and with the same intent as the guy who flew the Mexican flag above the US flag?
I understand your visceral and emotional reaction to the story. That's fine, but don't pretend to back it up with logic and reason to show what the vet did was right, and the owner of the US flag was wrong. You can't.
Bronco Bob
10-07-2007, 07:53 PM
Thanks for taking the time ...
Maybe we need a new law put into place?
More laws to restrict our freedoms. I get the idea you are a conservative.
So why is it the conservatives always are railing against the government
wanting to control our lives. But the minute some does something you
don't like, but isn't really hurting anyone else, you want to pass a law
against it. If this guy wants the fly the Mexican, Venezuelan, Cuban,
and Iranian flag all above the US flag, why shouldn't it be his right?
Doesn't mean I am going to shop at his store if he does, or very
many other people will either. But being stupid shouldn't be against
the law.
TailgateNut
10-08-2007, 01:00 PM
errrrrrr, what kind of flag?
Beaner
(U.S.) term widely regarded as derogatory, that refers to people of Mexican descent or, more broadly, mestizos.[19][20][21] The term originates from the prevalence of frijoles pintos and other beans in Mexican food.[21][22]
According to The Historical Dictionary of American Slang, the word was first seen in print in 1965, although the term has reportedly been in use at least since the 1940s (perhaps having evolved from previous slurs such as "bean-eater" and "bean-bandit" that were in use since as far back as the 1910s.) [19]
Although the word is generally considered pejorative, its usage is not always overtly offensive and can be fairly benign depending on the context (similar to the term "frog" for a French person.) Though perhaps once considered strictly offensive, it appears that the term may be going through a phase of melioration, where the negative connotation of an ethnic slur is "reclaimed" by those it is directed against and used in a neutral or even positive manner. [19
There you go. Sorry, bud, but IMO you don't "spit" on OUR flag. You live in this country, and are a citizen, then respect the flag, or I have a f-ing problem with it!
..and if the word "beaner" bothers you, call someone who gives a ****!
orangeatheist
10-08-2007, 07:20 PM
http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/d/d8/Crybaby.jpg
WAAAAAA!
This is where I get to step in and have the most fun making angry look like an idiot again. It's so easy to do, it's almost criminal.
First of all, angry's image is rather misplaced. I'm not whining about anything. Just pointing out all the hypocricy. And who's the biggest hypocrite? You guessed it.
Here's what angry wrote about the guy who flew the Chistian flag above the Stars n' Stripes:
Give to Caesar what is Caesars. Give to God what is Gods.
If it were illegal to fly a Christian flag over the American flag, then you might have a point. But its not.
Freedom of religion feels good. :thumbsup:
Try it.
All thumbs up from angry when it supports his agenda.
But what happens when someone runs across him another way? Someone who flies a Mexican flag above the ol' Red, White n' Blue?
His tune changes.
Many of us just arent appreciative of what it means to live in America.
Sometimes it takes seeing how these things really affect people to put them in proper perspective, and to see a war veteran continue to fight for what he laid his life on the line for is a relevent and powerful sight to behold. I applaud him for making such a powerful statement in public.
And what statement so impressed angry? To refresh everyone's memory, "...veteran Jim Broussard became so enraged when he heard a news report of a business in Reno, Nevada flying a Mexican flag above an American flag, he drove there and cut down the Mexican flag and stole the American flag."
So, angry, to keep from being a first-class hypocrite, I would expect you to amend your earlier position on the Christian flag and applaud the patriot who "became so enraged when he heard a news report of a [person] flying a [Christian] flag above an American flag, he drove there and cut down the [Christian] flag and stole the American flag."
Or are you --like LABF-- only capable of posting silly gifs and cartoons when you've been backed into a corner?
At least my position is consistent. I won't fly ANY flag above the American. Funny how that is, isn't it?
epicSocialism4tw
10-08-2007, 07:24 PM
This is where I get to step in and have the most fun making angry look like an idiot again. It's so easy to do, it's almost criminal.
First of all, angry's image is rather misplaced. I'm not whining about anything. Just pointing out all the hypocricy. And who's the biggest hypocrite? You guessed it.
Here's what angry wrote about the guy who flew the Chistian flag above the Stars n' Stripes:
All thumbs up from angry when it supports his agenda.
But what happens when someone runs across him another way? Someone who flies a Mexican flag above the ol' Red, White n' Blue?
His tune changes.
And what statement so impressed angry? To refresh everyone's memory, "...veteran Jim Broussard became so enraged when he heard a news report of a business in Reno, Nevada flying a Mexican flag above an American flag, he drove there and cut down the Mexican flag and stole the American flag."
So, angry, to keep from being a first-class hypocrite, I would expect you to amend your earlier position on the Christian flag and applaud the patriot who "became so enraged when he heard a news report of a [person] flying a [Christian] flag above an American flag, he drove there and cut down the [Christian] flag and stole the American flag."
Or are you --like LABF-- only capable of posting silly gifs and cartoons when you've been backed into a corner?
At least my position is consistent. I won't fly ANY flag above the American. Funny how that is, isn't it?
http://squarehe.com/images/0505/daniel-crybaby.jpg
orangeatheist
10-08-2007, 07:24 PM
I sense a :threadjac attempt.
You'd be wrong, Bob.
I'm merely pointing out that a similar issue came up last year and many people's tunes in this thread are the opposite of what they were in the other. Funny how tunes change depending upon whose agenda is being promoted, eh?
You need to turn down your "atheist radar". We're not all out to get you. Some of us are too busy eating babies and kittens to worry about folks like you.
orangeatheist
10-08-2007, 07:25 PM
:kiss: Right on cue, angry.
You and LABF are two peas in a pod.
Do it again!
epicSocialism4tw
10-08-2007, 07:50 PM
:kiss: Right on cue, angry.
You and LABF are two peas in a pod.
Do it again!
A picture is worth a thousand words.
The great thing about that is that you cant put a thousand words together to save your life.
So here...shed some more for the poor atheists, dude. ;D
http://thebosh.com/upload/2007/04/02/Britney-Spears-crying.jpg
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-08-2007, 07:56 PM
Or are you --like LABF-- only capable of posting silly gifs and cartoons when you've been backed into a corner?
:oyvey:
Still working that revisionist history, eh?
Keep it up - it's almost as amusing as your God obsession.
orangeatheist
10-08-2007, 07:59 PM
Keep it up, angry!
Deflect attention away from your hypocricy!
BIGGER PICTURES!! MORE! MORE! MORE!!!
Maybe no one will notice how much of a first-class tool you are!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
I LOVE it when I get under a hypocrite's skin!!
Hilarious! :yayaya: Nnyah!
epicSocialism4tw
10-08-2007, 08:13 PM
Keep it up, angry!
Deflect attention away from your hypocricy!
BIGGER PICTURES!! MORE! MORE! MORE!!!
Maybe no one will notice how much of a first-class tool you are!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
I LOVE it when I get under a hypocrite's skin!!
???
So sad.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-08-2007, 08:18 PM
OA: Evangelist for atheism.
:laugh:
epicSocialism4tw
10-08-2007, 08:20 PM
OA: Evangelist for atheism.
:laugh:
Militant atheist evangelical? I think so.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/jdwismer922/atheism/millitantatheist.jpg
LABF, didja ever dig up the law that says what you claimed - flying any flag above the US flag is illegal?
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-08-2007, 08:33 PM
Militant atheist evangelical? I think so.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/jdwismer922/atheism/millitantatheist.jpg
The guy is just as missionary with his atheism as some religious people, from what I've seen.
orangeatheist
10-08-2007, 08:34 PM
Militant atheist evangelical? I think so.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/jdwismer922/atheism/millitantatheist.jpg
HA HA HA!
Excellent, angry! What is that? A cell phone shot of yourself after reading my post exposing your hypocricy with a photoshopped "Militant Atheist" tagged on the hat?
:thumbs:
Remember these gems?
If it were illegal to fly a Christian flag over the American flag, then you might have a point. But its not.
...to see a war veteran continue to fight for what he laid his life on the line for is a relevent and powerful sight to behold. I applaud him for making such a powerful statement in public.
BWHAHA HAHA!!
Hypocrites For Christ! Gotta love these tools! :giggle:
epicSocialism4tw
10-08-2007, 08:39 PM
http://www.tr.k12.in.us/trh01/alleet/ADVCAPP%202003/rileyk/images/logo-loony-toons-2.gif
Atheists? Yes.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-08-2007, 08:42 PM
From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 3, 2005]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between January 3, 2005 and March 20, 2006]
[CITE: 4USC7]
TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES
CHAPTER 1--THE FLAG
Sec. 7. Position and manner of display
The flag, when carried in a procession with another flag or flags,
should be either on the marching right; that is, the flag's own right,
or, if there is a line of other flags, in front of the center of that
line.
(a) The flag should not be displayed on a float in a parade except
from a staff, or as provided in subsection (i) of this section.
(b) The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back
of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat. When the flag is
displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis
or clamped to the right fender.
(c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the
same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America,
except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when
the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services
for the personnel of the Navy. No person shall display the flag of the
United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above,
or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the
flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any
Territory or possession thereof: Provided, That nothing in this section
shall make unlawful the continuance of the practice heretofore followed
of displaying the flag of the United Nations in a position of superior
prominence or honor, and other national flags in positions of equal
prominence or honor, with that of the flag of the United States at the
headquarters of the United Nations.
(d) The flag of the United States of America, when it is displayed
with another flag against a wall from crossed staffs, should be on the
right, the flag's own right, and its staff should be in front of the
staff of the other flag.
(e) The flag of the United States of America should be at the center
and at the highest point of the group when a number of flags of States
or localities or pennants of societies are grouped and displayed from
staffs.
(f) When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of
societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United
States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are
flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be
hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed
above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag's
right.
(g) When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be
flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of
approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the
flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.
(h) When the flag of the United States is displayed from a staff
projecting horizontally or at an angle from the window sill, balcony, or
front of a building, the union of the flag should be placed at the peak
of the staff unless the flag is at half-staff. When the flag is
suspended over a sidewalk from a rope extending from a house to a pole
at the edge of the sidewalk, the flag should be hoisted out, union
first, from the building.
(i) When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall,
the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to
the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be
displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of
the observer in the street.
(j) When the flag is displayed over the middle of the street, it
should be suspended vertically with the union to the north in an east
and west street or to the east in a north and south street.
(k) When used on a speaker's platform, the flag, if displayed flat,
should be displayed above and behind the speaker. When displayed from a
staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of
America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of
the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or
speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed
should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right
of the audience.
(l) The flag should form a distinctive feature of the ceremony of
unveiling a statue or monument, but it should never be used as the
covering for the statue or monument.
(m) The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to
the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The
flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the
day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until
noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the
President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of
principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a
State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory.
In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the
flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential
instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or
practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a
present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or
possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory,
or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at
half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff 30 days from the death
of the President or a former President; 10 days from the day of death of
the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the
United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the
day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme
Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice
President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on
the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. The
flag shall be flown at half-staff on Peace Officers Memorial Day, unless
that day is also Armed Forces Day. As used in this subsection--
(1) the term ``half-staff'' means the position of the flag when
it is one-half the distance between the top and bottom of the staff;
(2) the term ``executive or military department'' means any
agency listed under sections 101 and 102 of title 5, United States
Code; and
(3) the term ``Member of Congress'' means a Senator, a
Representative, a Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from Puerto
Rico.
(n) When the flag is used to cover a casket, it should be so placed
that the union is at the head and over the left shoulder. The flag
should not be lowered into the grave or allowed to touch the ground.
(o) When the flag is suspended across a corridor or lobby in a
building with only one main entrance, it should be suspended vertically
with the union of the flag to the observer's left upon entering. If the
building has more than one main entrance, the flag should be suspended
vertically near the center of the corridor or lobby with the union to
the north, when entrances are to the east and west or to the east when
entrances are to the north and south. If there are entrances in more
than two directions, the union should be to the east.
(Added Pub. L. 105-225, Sec. 2(a), Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1495.)
Historical and Revision Notes
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised Section Source (U.S. Code) Source (Statutes at Large)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7..................................... 36:175. June 22, 1942, ch. 435, Sec. 3, 56
Stat. 378; Dec. 22, 1942, ch. 806,
Sec. 3, 56 Stat. 1075; July 9, 1953,
ch. 183, 67 Stat. 142; July 7, 1976,
Pub. L. 94-344, (6)-(11), 90 Stat.
811; Sept. 13, 1994, Pub. L. 103-322,
title XXXII, Sec. 320922(b), 108
Stat. 2131.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proc. No. 3044. Display of Flag at Half-Staff Upon Death of Certain
Officials and Former Officials
Proc. No. 3044, Mar. 1, 1954, 19 F.R. 1235, as amended by Proc. No.
3948, Dec. 12, 1969, 34 F.R. 19699, provided:
WHEREAS it is appropriate that the flag of the United States of
America be flown at half-staff on Federal buildings, grounds, and
facilities upon the death of principal officials and former officials of
the Government of the United States and the Governors of the States,
Territories, and possessions of the United States as a mark of respect
to their memory; and
WHEREAS it is desirable that rules be prescribed for the uniform
observance of this mark of respect by all executive departments and
agencies of the Government, and as a guide to the people of the Nation
generally on such occasions:
NOW, THEREFORE, I, DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER, President of the United
States of America and Commander in Chief of the armed forces of the
United States, do hereby prescribe and proclaim the following rules with
respect to the display of the flag of the United States of America at
half-staff upon the death of the officials hereinafter designated:
1. The flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff on all
buildings, grounds, and naval vessels of the Federal Government in the
District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its
Territories and possessions for the period indicated upon the death of
any of the following-designated officials or former officials of the
United States:
(a) The President or a former President: for thirty days from the
day of death.
The flag shall also be flown at half-staff for such period at all
United States embassies, legations, and other facilities abroad,
including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations.
(b) The Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice
of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives:
for ten days from the day of death.
(c) An Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a member of the
Cabinet, a former Vice President, the President pro tempore of the
Senate, the Majority Leader of the Senate, the Minority Leader of the
Senate, the Majority Leader of the House of Representatives, or the
Minority Leader of the House of Representatives: from the day of death
until interment.
2. The flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff on all
buildings, grounds, and naval vessels of the Federal Government in the
metropolitan area of the District of Columbia on the day of death and on
the following day upon the death of a United States Senator,
Representative, Territorial Delegate, or the Resident Commissioner from
the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and it shall also be flown at half-
staff on all buildings, grounds, and naval vessels of the Federal
Government in the State, Congressional District, Territory, or
Commonwealth of such Senator, Representative, Delegate, or Commissioner,
respectively, from the day of death until interment.
3. The flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff on all
buildings and grounds of the Federal Government in a State, Territory,
or possession of the United States upon the death of the Governor of
such State, Territory, or possession from the day of death until
interment.
4. In the event of the death of other officials, former officials,
or foreign dignitaries, the flag of the United States shall be displayed
at half-staff in accordance with such orders or instructions as may be
issued by or at the direction of the President, or in accordance with
recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law.
5. The heads of the several departments and agencies of the
Government may direct that the flag of the United States be flown at
half-staff on buildings, grounds, or naval vessels under their
jurisdiction on occasions other than those specified herein which they
consider proper, and that suitable military honors be rendered as
appropriate.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal
of the United States of America to be affixed.
DONE at the City of Washington this 1st day of March in the year of
our Lord nineteen hundred and fifty-four, and of the
Independence of the United States of America the one
hundred and seventy-eighth.
[seal]
Dwight D. Eisenhower.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+4USC7
orangeatheist
10-08-2007, 08:45 PM
LABF, didja ever dig up the law that says what you claimed - flying any flag above the US flag is illegal?
Are you kiddin'? LABF can't even dig up the post where he claims I put him on "ignore" because he pointed out that I spend a lot of time discussing God when I don't believe in it.
LABF is the master of distortion, lies and half-truths.
L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-08-2007, 08:48 PM
Are you kiddin'? LABF can't even dig up the post where he claims I put him on "ignore" because he pointed out that I spend a lot of time discussing God when I don't believe in it.
LABF is the master of distortion, lies and half-truths.
ROFL!
If you have me on ignore, then how do you know what I have or haven't posted, genius?
orangeatheist
10-08-2007, 08:52 PM
Atheists? Yes.
What was that you said defending the biblical exodus?
Oh, that's right...
**crickets chirping*
And what was it you said about flying the Christian flag above Ol' Glory?
If it were illegal to fly a Christian flag over the American flag, then you might have a point. But its not.
But what about the "patriot" who saw the Mexican flag flying above the Stars n' Stripes and proceeded to rip the Mexican flag down and steal the American?
...to see a war veteran continue to fight for what he laid his life on the line for is a relevent and powerful sight to behold. I applaud him for making such a powerful statement in public.
:nutkick
Keep 'em comin' Ang! I could do this all night! Ha!
There's no penalty for flying the flag however one likes.
Therefore, the shop owner in Reno was not charged with breaking any law.
LABF is the master of distortion, lies and half-truths.
Well, he's not a master, because we all see his sad little bag of tricks all the time. But you're right - if you took away those things, there would be little left of his posts.
orangeatheist
10-08-2007, 10:16 PM
There's no penalty for flying the flag however one likes.
Therefore, the shop owner in Reno was not charged with breaking any law.
Right. But the Vet should be charged. Vandalism and property theft.
You see, I figure that's what he fought for: the right for every American to freely express his or her self without fear of retribution.
In the United States we have the unique right to be offended. Isn't that nice? In some countries if you were to fly a certain flag, publicly worship a particular god, wear a certain style of clothing or listen to a particular genre of music you'd be arrested and/or fined at best, taken out an executed at worst. But in the States, you can fly any flag you want, publicly worship any god you want (or, much to angry's chagrin, publicly choose not to worship any gods), wear any style of clothing or listen to any genre of music all without fear. That's what the vet was fighting for. Evidently, he forgot that or never knew it in the first place.
You see, that's what touched me off about this whole subject. It had nothing to do with religion as Bob seems to imply, or about my atheism as angry would like to make it. It wasn't even so much the fact that a guy was flying a flag in violation of a cultural convention. I agree with many here; I find it offensive. But I'm not a hypocrite about it. I find it EQUALLY as offensive as seeing some guy fly an Italian flag above Ol' Glory, or an Irish flag, or a Confederate flag, or a Broncos flag, or a Christian flag. That's why I don't do it. That's why I find angry's gif-protests so damn funny. I would give my eye-teeth to sit in on one of his weekly Bible Studies and/or Sunday School sessions. I bet I wouldn't sit there more than five minutes before I could nail that hypocrite to the wall. My posts had nothing to do with atheism vs. Christianity; but you can't tell angry that. He sees me enter a thread and his ass is smarting so bad from being embarrassed because he can't defend his Bible assertions that seeing me sets him off like a red flag in a bull ring. My posts had to do with hypocrisy I could see flowing from this topic.
Personally, I follow the convention of never flying any flag above the Stars and Stripes. But I certainly don't expect anyone else to follow what I have accepted. That's why, in that other thread, I expressed my opinion that I am PLEASED when I see a business advertise their religious biases. That way I can avoid them. So, what would have been the proper course of action for the vet who was offended by this business owner who flew the Mexican flag above the Stars n' Stripes? Do what every American has the right to do. Do what that vet fought for all of us to be able to do: Express our offense by not doing business with that shop. Be offended. Allow others to express themselves so you know where they stand and where your hard-earned dollars will be going.
Everyone has the privilege to do what they think is the right thing, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others or break any laws. And until LABF can come up with the statute that identifies flying any flag above Ol' Glory as illegal, you hypocrites better be just as incensed about a fella flying the Christian flag above the Star Spangled Banner as you are about some fella flying the Mexican flag above the Stars and Stripes. Until then, be offended and be happy you can offend others without fear of getting your head lopped off. Cuz Lord knows many of you here offend the crap out of me! Yeah, I'm talkin' to YOU! ;)
Right. But the Vet should be charged. Vandalism and property theft.
You see, I figure that's what he fought for: the right for every American to freely express his or her self without fear of retribution.
In the United States we have the unique right to be offended. Isn't that nice? In some countries if you were to fly a certain flag, publicly worship a particular god, wear a certain style of clothing or listen to a particular genre of music you'd be arrested and/or fined at best, taken out an executed at worst. But in the States, you can fly any flag you want, publicly worship any god you want (or, much to angry's chagrin, publicly choose not to worship any gods), wear any style of clothing or listen to any genre of music all without fear. That's what the vet was fighting for. Evidently, he forgot that or never knew it in the first place.
You see, that's what touched me off about this whole subject. It had nothing to do with religion as Bob seems to imply, or about my atheism as angry would like to make it. It wasn't even so much the fact that a guy was flying a flag in violation of a cultural convention. I agree with many here; I find it offensive. But I'm not a hypocrite about it. I find it EQUALLY as offensive as seeing some guy fly an Italian flag above Ol' Glory, or an Irish flag, or a Confederate flag, or a Broncos flag, or a Christian flag. That's why I don't do it. That's why I find angry's gif-protests so damn funny. I would give my eye-teeth to sit in on one of his weekly Bible Studies and/or Sunday School sessions. I bet I wouldn't sit there more than five minutes before I could nail that hypocrite to the wall. My posts had nothing to do with atheism vs. Christianity; but you can't tell angry that. He sees me enter a thread and his ass is smarting so bad from being embarrassed because he can't defend his Bible assertions that seeing me sets him off like a red flag in a bull ring. My posts had to do with hypocrisy I could see flowing from this topic.
Personally, I follow the convention of never flying any flag above the Stars and Stripes. But I certainly don't expect anyone else to follow what I have accepted. That's why, in that other thread, I expressed my opinion that I am PLEASED when I see a business advertise their religious biases. That way I can avoid them. So, what would have been the proper course of action for the vet who was offended by this business owner who flew the Mexican flag above the Stars n' Stripes? Do what every American has the right to do. Do what that vet fought for all of us to be able to do: Express our offense by not doing business with that shop. Be offended. Allow others to express themselves so you know where they stand and where your hard-earned dollars will be going.
Everyone has the privilege to do what they think is the right thing, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others or break any laws. And until LABF can come up with the statute that identifies flying any flag above Ol' Glory as illegal, you hypocrites better be just as incensed about a fella flying the Christian flag above the Star Spangled Banner as you are about some fella flying the Mexican flag above the Stars and Stripes. Until then, be offended and be happy you can offend others without fear of getting your head lopped off. Cuz Lord knows many of you here offend the crap out of me! Yeah, I'm talkin' to YOU! ;)
I too would never fly any flag above our own -- I didnt even know that there was a Christain Flag.
When someone puts one flag above another to me is communicates that they put the ideas represented in that flag above Old Glory. To me America is one Nation under God, and so there is no need to put a Christain flag above it. If there was an LDS flag -- which would be weird, I would never put it above the USA flag.
I guess we dont have millions of Irish coming illegally and bankrupting our hospitals --- that being said though I would not like that either, but it is admittedly not as emotionally charged becuase it seems like it is the Latan countries that are invading the USA, and hurting certain parts of our economy, and do seem NOT as interested in coming to be a part of this country, but to get a buck and ship it "home" and that home aint appearenly here.
Bronco Bob
10-10-2007, 11:47 AM
I too would never fly any flag above our own -- I didnt even know that there was a Christain Flag.
When someone puts one flag above another to me is communicates that they put the ideas represented in that flag above Old Glory. To me America is one Nation under God, and so there is no need to put a Christain flag above it. If there was an LDS flag -- which would be weird, I would never put it above the USA flag.
But if the United States of America is one nation under God, shouldn't
the US flag be under God's flag? Who is greater, God or the USA?
Isn't putting God's flag above the USA's flag showing that this person
values God more than he values the USA?
TailgateNut
10-10-2007, 11:49 AM
But if the United States of America is one nation under God, shouldn't
the US flag be under God's flag? Who is greater, God or the USA?
Isn't putting God's flag above the USA's flag showing that this person
values God more than he values the USA?
LOL
Drama Queen.
I also would have knocked on the door and explained it to the guy, He simply may not have known the US customs. If the guy then refused, I would have had to kick him in the jimmy and switched them myself.
Being a patriot does not give you the right to steal or cheat, Unless you are from New England :)
But if the United States of America is one nation under God, shouldn't
the US flag be under God's flag? Who is greater, God or the USA?
Isn't putting God's flag above the USA's flag showing that this person
values God more than he values the USA?
Please show me God's flag and I will buy and fly it proudly. :notworthy
But if the United States of America is one nation under God, shouldn't
the US flag be under God's flag? Who is greater, God or the USA?
Isn't putting God's flag above the USA's flag showing that this person
values God more than he values the USA?
God does not need a flag, or in my mind crosses, or other symbols on flag poles. But to me the American Flag represents a nation that was founded with an idea that the People have rights that are given to them by God. I think it is an issue of respect to our nation, and so personally I will try to put God first, and putting any flag above our own is offensive on some level.
Yea, having read the New Testament numerous times I don't recall mention of a "Christian Flag" or Jesus commanding his followers to wave any kind of flag. :)
Bronco Bob
10-10-2007, 04:16 PM
How they solved the Mexican flag - US flag problem in Tucson, Arizona.
They got rid of both of them.
Desert Museum strikes colors
Complaints, threats over Mexican flag prompted removal
By Brady McCombs and Stephanie Innes
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 10.10.2007
The Mexican flag flies no more over the Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum — and the U.S. flag is gone, too.
The museum's board of trustees voted to remove the flags — which had flown side-by-side since 1954 — after receiving complaints and threats about flying the Mexican flag.
Questions from visitors about why the Mexican flag was being flown on U.S. soil escalated in the past couple of years, said board chairwoman Sophia Kaluzniacki.
An anonymous death threat against the museum's animals made earlier this year by a phone caller also factored into the board's decision, but to a lesser degree, she said. The desire to avoid controversy on border-related issues was the main thrust, she said.
"The Desert Museum doesn't want to make any political statement," said Kaluzniacki, a Green Valley veterinarian. "We are not a political institution so sometimes you have to consider what current issues are."
Museum employees were receiving three to five complaints a week from visitors about the presence and height of the Mexican flag, which flew at the same position as the U.S. flag, said museum spokesman Tim Vimmerstedt. Museum officials say the flag was a gift from a Sonoran governor more than a half-century ago.
The board decided that the best move was to remove both nations' flags and use other methods to convey to visitors the multinationalism of the Sonoran Desert, Vimmerstedt said. As a nonprofit organization, the museum isn't required by law to fly any flags.
An interpretive station with a map of the Sonoran Desert, which stretches into Mexico, is expected to be opened near the museum's entrance within 30 to 60 days, he said, along with flags of the states containing Sonoran Desert land: Arizona, California, Sonora, Baja Sur and Baja California.
"This way we hope we will be able to explain the Arizona-Sonora Desert to people without having to explain the flag issue," said Kaluzniacki, who has been on the board for nearly eight years.
The decision to remove the flags didn't sit well with some.
Trustee Winifred "Wynee" Warden was absent for the vote on the Mexican flag, but she wishes it was still up. She is adamantly against a recent decision to also take down the U.S. flag, she said.
"They decided that if the Mexican flag was going down, the other one should go down, too," said Warden, who has been on the museum's board five years. "I just don't think it's right. I'm very patriotic."
Warden said the decision on the Mexican flag was somewhat more problematic. The incendiary border debate not only fueled complaints about flying the Mexican flag, she said, but she had also heard there were death threats against the museum's animals.
http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/205543