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wolf754life
10-04-2007, 08:58 PM
We are 10 yrs out from the superbowls, this team has crumbled talent wise to its current state, a 6 and 10 team, with brittle veterans and no depth at key positions. Shannahan has lost his touch, at least here in Denver, and the players no longer respond to his leadership.

Its simply time for him to go, although I am sure pat bowlen has a million excuses for him. Think about it, take off your homer glasses and look at whats actually going on at dove valley. His biggest problem is personnel. Do these names mean anything, Ashlie Lelie, George Foster, DJ Williams, Paul Tovesi, Darius Watts, Marcus Nash, Tatum Bell, the list goes on and on, over the last 10 yrs no team has drafted worse than we have, and it shows on our roster. (Especially on Defense), the last couple years have been better and is saving our Offense with marshall, cutler. Paying Gerrard Warren over Trevor Pryce was a huge mistake....

Ed Reed and Steven Jackson could have BOTH been on this roster now!

Free agent wise where do we start, for every good signing we get burned by several others. Dale Carter, Darryl Gardner, now Travis Henry??? Shannahan has sold his soul and taken unnecessary risks on veterans and overpaid mightily, Dre Bly is the next in line to fail. Trading Gerrard Warren was a mistake as well, after Warren had restructured his contract several times, now we have NO run D.

Coaching, ever since kubiak left his offensive playcalling has been atrocious, especially in the redzone, and his coaching staffs have done terrible. How many D coordinators are we going to go through? How many special teams coaches? Time and Time again he gets a free pass on these critical decisions.

Shannahan is still a great coach, but not here, not now, not in Denver anymore, its time for him to go and time for a new voice and a new coaching staff with fresh ideas and fresh motivation!

eddie mac
10-04-2007, 09:02 PM
Did Shanahan put the joint in Travis' mouth???

frerottenextelway
10-04-2007, 09:04 PM
I'll bet you $1,000 we have a better record than 6-10.

HEAV
10-04-2007, 09:05 PM
I'm not going to say **** about getting rid of Shanny (useless on here and Pat Bowlen loves the guy)

But this is all Shanny's mess... He has 100% control over the Broncos personel moves.

DB_champ24
10-04-2007, 09:05 PM
oh and 2 years ago we were in the AFC championship..I know ths team is alot different than that team..relax the Broncos have alot of young up and coming talent..this isnt the year for superbowl..its a year for growth and development

Moon§hiner
10-04-2007, 09:06 PM
OK Wolf...who is your choice to replace him?

RunSilentRunDeep
10-04-2007, 09:06 PM
Every team has a list a mile long of draft picks that suck. If you hit on half, you've done well.

Kaylore
10-04-2007, 09:06 PM
More Ed Reed Whining.

SoCalBronco
10-04-2007, 09:09 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=20325&stc=1&d=1191557193

:rofl: Great pic, Khan

wolf754life
10-04-2007, 09:10 PM
Mike Martz is an ideal candidate with a powerful defensive coordinator, Martz and Cutler will do wonders for the offense and the Defense can be rebuilt to be decent. He is the best choice for our personnel, and one last caveat, a powerful STAND ALONE GENERAL MANAGER would help leaps and bounds.

frerottenextelway
10-04-2007, 09:12 PM
Mike Martz is an ideal candidate with a powerful defensive coordinator, Martz and Cutler will do wonders for the offense and the Defense can be rebuilt to be decent. He is the best choice for our personnel, and one last caveat, a powerful STAND ALONE GENERAL MANAGER would help leaps and bounds.

Yeah, lets bring in the guy who traded for George Foster.

HEAV
10-04-2007, 09:15 PM
Mike Martz:flush:

He's a nutcase...

24champ
10-04-2007, 09:15 PM
http://www.nuxx.net/gallery/d/29219-2/oh_noes.jpg

Blueflame
10-04-2007, 09:15 PM
Mike Martz is an ideal candidate with a powerful defensive coordinator, Martz and Cutler will do wonders for the offense and the Defense can be rebuilt to be decent. He is the best choice for our personnel, and one last caveat, a powerful STAND ALONE GENERAL MANAGER would help leaps and bounds.

Mike Martz sucked as a HC....his arrogance in keeping both Marshall Faulk and Kurt Warner in an out-of-reach playoff game (against GB if memory serves me correctly) directly resulted in the hand injury that Warner has yet to truly recover from. I think Faulk also was dinged up in that game and the Rams lost the next weekend.

PatsWin2002
10-04-2007, 09:15 PM
Martz sucked as a HC, but always gets kudos when talking about his work...not just as an OC, but working with young QBs.

As a HC he was as bad at game management as Herm.

As for Shanahan, he's still one of the best out there.

theAPAOps5
10-04-2007, 09:16 PM
I swear to God over 75% of the members here have ADD.

oubronco
10-04-2007, 09:16 PM
[QUOTE=wolf754life;1739636]
Coaching, ever since kubiak left his offensive playcalling has been atrocious, especially in the redzone,


the redzone woes were pretty atrocious when kubiak was here as well

Blueflame
10-04-2007, 09:20 PM
Martz sucked as a HC, but always gets kudos when talking about his work...not just as an OC, but working with young QBs.

As a HC he was as bad at game management as Herm.

As for Shanahan, he's still one of the best out there.

Yet he pretty much ruined Warner....

Moon§hiner
10-04-2007, 09:21 PM
Martz makes for a nice off. coach, but I wouldn't trust him with associating with the defensive coach and being on the same page if he were in charge of the team on the field. If you think Shanahan has a big ego just look at tapes of Martz when he was in charge of the Rams. The only guy I can even think of to replace Shanny is taken. Kubiak.. I had hopes that he would stick around and be the heir apparent but it wasn't meant to be.

Bronx33
10-04-2007, 09:22 PM
Attn shoppers we have a fan going off the deep edge in isle 3 i repeat, we have a fan going off the deep edge in isle 3 (that is all)

wolf754life
10-04-2007, 09:22 PM
mark my words, one year from now the majority of you will have run out of patience with him and be at the same point i am now, no need to debate it, you all still believe this team is good, give it some time.......

eddie mac
10-04-2007, 09:23 PM
Shanny is still one of the best HC's out there. Problem is he's not so good in the old player personnel recruitment dept be it through the draft or FA, then again isn't that partially Ted Sundqvist's job??? Thing is if Bowlen attempted to take away any of Shanahan's current responsibilities I reckon he'd leave.

theAPAOps5
10-04-2007, 09:24 PM
There is a need to debate it you are freaking out. Just remember when the team makes another run you checked yourself off the Shanny bandwagon.

Pezman
10-04-2007, 09:25 PM
I swear to God over 75% of the mem...ADD.
What? I missed most of that because I was distracted or something :wave:

Pezman
10-04-2007, 09:27 PM
OH yeah, and Wolfy, it taint happening. We just reupped the Rat for an extention. Its gonna be til second decade of this century before we see a change at coach in Denver.

And just to nitpick... its S - H - A - N - A - H - A - N ;D

theAPAOps5
10-04-2007, 09:28 PM
What? I missed most of that because I was distracted or something :wave:

what are you talking about? So the Rockies looked good, but so do the Avs. Did you know its windy out, I just pooped. What thread is this.

oubronco
10-04-2007, 09:29 PM
who would you propose they get that would be better ?

Pezman
10-04-2007, 09:30 PM
what are you talking about? So the Rockies looked good, but so do the Avs. Did you know its windy out, I just pooped. What thread is this.

Mock would be proud at your progress my young padawan

bronco_diesel
10-04-2007, 09:32 PM
Mike Martz is an ideal candidate with a powerful defensive coordinator, Martz and Cutler will do wonders for the offense and the Defense can be rebuilt to be decent. He is the best choice for our personnel, and one last caveat, a powerful STAND ALONE GENERAL MANAGER would help leaps and bounds.

you lost a lot of credibility there...mike martz, for real?

Bronx33
10-04-2007, 09:32 PM
While were at it lets fire pat bowlan and that guy that made my mini pizza!!

Archer81
10-04-2007, 09:32 PM
I am sure doctor phil would love to hear your opinion on who should coach the denver broncos. In the mean time, shut it. 2-2 and first in the afc west...cry me a friggin river.


:Broncos:

PatsWin2002
10-04-2007, 09:34 PM
Yet he pretty much ruined Warner....


Brenda helped! ROFL!

epicSocialism4tw
10-04-2007, 09:34 PM
Shanny does get the benefit of the doubt with alot of the mistakes that he has made.

I think that this guy raises an valid perspective when he brings some doubt to the discussion. I also think that this board is filled with a bunch of blind homers with peas for brains.

With that said, Shanny is one of the best things going for this franchise. The day that he leaves is the end of an era marked by wins and consistent competitiveness.

Billy Clyde Puckett
10-04-2007, 09:34 PM
There are getting to be too many 12 year old girls on this site.

DB_champ24
10-04-2007, 09:37 PM
There are getting to be too many 12 year old girls on this site.

hahaha

azbroncfan
10-04-2007, 09:38 PM
The same argument could be used on any team not named INDY or NE over the past couple years.

TheDave
10-04-2007, 09:41 PM
There are getting to be too many 12 year old girls on this site.

Lock the thread/

Archer81
10-04-2007, 09:42 PM
Trying to understand this...110+ career wins as Broncos HC...3 AFC West titles, 2 AFC titles, 2 SB titles, 20+ career wins vs SD and Oak, 2nd longest tenured coach in the nfl, turned Brian Griese and Jake Plummer into probowlers and you want to fire him to bring in mike martz? Are you retarded?


:Broncos:

Blueflame
10-04-2007, 09:44 PM
Brenda helped! ROFL!

As a non-Rams fan, my recollection of things could be less than 100% accurate, but I seem to remember reading an article or two where she was complaining that he hadn't received adequate medical care and/or his hand injury was misdiagnosed or something. I'm sure her public criticism didn't set well with coaches, team doctors, or the team.... but I do think she had his best interests at heart. I got very tired of seeing her in the stands every single Sunday as if the football game was about her or somesuch, though.

cutthemdown
10-04-2007, 09:44 PM
If Henry blows up like it looks like I'd say Shanny deserves to be fired and we could look for a young hot shot coach or a proven older HC. Just to many huge FA busts and crappy drafts for him to get a free pass any longer. He takes too many risks on bad character and now it looks like he may have done it again.

cmhargrove
10-04-2007, 09:44 PM
Don't we hear this same tired **** every year? Gimme a, f-in break. The best winning percentage in his tenure, most offensive yards, blah, blah, blah.. Teams that fire a coach while in the lead of a division are stupid (like the Chargers).

Why don't you wait to see how things pan out before you keep spouting trash like this. I still think we can win our division and make the playoffs.

As a matter of fact, the Travis Henry thing doesn't bother me so much. The young guys seem to want this pretty bad, and I think they have decent talent. And, what if we force Cutler to throw it more? I'm even happier.

Quitters piss me off. Don't quit on our team yet, this season is very young.

Blueflame
10-04-2007, 09:48 PM
Yeah, why don't we fire Shanahan and try to woo Norv away from the Bolts... ::)

Archer81
10-04-2007, 09:49 PM
If Henry blows up like it looks like I'd say Shanny deserves to be fired and we could look for a young hot shot coach or a proven older HC. Just to many huge FA busts and crappy drafts for him to get a free pass any longer. He takes too many risks on bad character and now it looks like he may have done it again.



Every player has something. For every Romo, you get a Dale Carter. It happens.


:Broncos:

telluride
10-04-2007, 10:04 PM
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Shanny get a good GM forced onto him. And not Sundquist, as he's culpable in all this mess.

MechanicalBull
10-04-2007, 10:05 PM
Can we stop with this Ed Reed and Steven Jackson crap? Oh if we drafted Tom Brady in 2000 we wouldn't have had to deal with Plummer for those few years and then so on and so on.

theAPAOps5
10-04-2007, 10:07 PM
I also think that this board is filled with a bunch of blind homers with peas for brains.




You being the supreme leader of them all. :thumbsup:

epicSocialism4tw
10-04-2007, 10:12 PM
Can we stop with this Ed Reed and Steven Jackson crap? Oh if we drafted Tom Brady in 2000 we wouldn't have had to deal with Plummer for those few years and then so on and so on.

:thumbs:

Merlin
10-04-2007, 10:15 PM
If Henry blows up like it looks like I'd say Shanny deserves to be fired and we could look for a young hot shot coach or a proven older HC.
Most people and analyst were hanging from Shanny's jock for that move, especially considering the way he has been rushing, and now you wanna blame him for Henry's idiocy? TH has been clean for a long time and was within weeks of being of the list, but it is Shanny's fault?

As to his draft choices...I would say the past 3 yrs would place Denver among the best in the league. You guys are the type that would fire Shotty to get Norv.

Thanks but no thanks...especially since Shanny is among the best period.

theAPAOps5
10-04-2007, 10:16 PM
I am all aboard getting some checks and balances on this team. Shanny the GM has continuously let down Shanny the Coach. Time to split it up.

Jens1893
10-04-2007, 10:19 PM
I am all aboard getting some checks and balances on this team. Shanny the GM has continuously let down Shanny the Coach. Time to split it up.

Shanahan would never go for that. It´d be a demotion and once you´ve tasted power it´s very, very hard to let go of it.

HEAV
10-04-2007, 10:23 PM
Charlie Weis anyone, anyone?

TDmvp
10-04-2007, 10:30 PM
lame thread of the week ...
name anyone you want and you sound uneducated saying it outloud ...
props to those in this thread with Mike's back ...

Merlin
10-04-2007, 10:30 PM
Charlie Weis anyone, anyone?
He has yet to truly prove himself as a HC at the college level, and you want to replace Shanny with him? Thanks, I'll pass.

Ray Finkle
10-04-2007, 10:57 PM
once every couple weeks some dip shet thinks they have something great to say....

nothing to see, move along.

Martz has ruined Warner and will cripple Kitna. How long would Cutler last with 5 wide against the Chargers?

When you creat a thread, you should think to yourself "Will this sound intelligent to the rest of the posters?" If no, don't post....

Lev Vyvanse
10-04-2007, 10:58 PM
Charlie Weis anyone, anyone?

This is retarded but, Weis really?
How about Bill Cowher.

theAPAOps5
10-04-2007, 11:00 PM
If Bowlen is ever to replace Shanny I hope its with Kubiak.

DB_champ24
10-04-2007, 11:01 PM
How about no one but Shanahan for now and present future

Bronx33
10-04-2007, 11:11 PM
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/8567/bustersquatvariation1adj5.jpg

Buster time

Malcontent
10-04-2007, 11:19 PM
Atta boy Buster!!!

Steve Prefontaine
10-04-2007, 11:21 PM
Phew. I was worried we weren't going to see a fire Shanahan thread until after the bye week...

Bronco Billy
10-04-2007, 11:22 PM
Pizza sounds really good right now!

Drek
10-04-2007, 11:25 PM
We are 10 yrs out from the superbowls,
Which is closer than all but 6 other organizations.

this team has crumbled talent wise to its current state, a 6 and 10 team, with brittle veterans and no depth at key positions. Shannahan has lost his touch, at least here in Denver, and the players no longer respond to his leadership.
Actually, we're 2-2. Shanahan's ability to out game plan opposing coaches will probably once again assure us a .500 or better record too.

His biggest problem is personnel. Do these names mean anything, Ashlie Lelie, George Foster, DJ Williams, Paul Tovesi, Darius Watts, Marcus Nash, Tatum Bell, the list goes on and on,
For starters, I wouldn't include a 2nd round guy who put up 2000 yards in his 2nd and 3rd seasons and was a big part of bringing us back a pro-bowl corner a poor selection. I definately wouldn't include a guy just entering his 4th year and 3rd new starting position, when his one year at his natural position he was a worthwhile DROY candidate.

over the last 10 yrs no team has drafted worse than we have, and it shows on our roster. (Especially on Defense),
We drafted Reggie Hayward out of the 3rd round, Clinton Portis out of the 2nd, Sam Brandon, Cooper Carlisle, and Ben Hamilton out of the 4th, as well as Mike Anderson and Jeb Putzier in the 6th. Those were all steals at their comparative draft positions and game after the Super Bowl runs. I'd say thats a pretty good crop of players, all of them have started significant amounts of time for this team as well as other teams in the league except Brandon, who was a vital role player for this team in recent years.

the last couple years have been better and is saving our Offense with marshall, cutler.
Yeah, bringing in 4 guys in '06 that are in some way big contributors to this team already is pretty impressive. But then so was the '05 draft, the one where we dealt our first to actually get Cutler the next season and still walked away with a quality trio of CBs and our current starting LG. I'm sure its all bull**** luck though, right?

Paying Gerrard Warren over Trevor Pryce was a huge mistake....
Pryce was gone. He was mailing it in here collecting fat checks. No matter who we retained his ass was out the door. He only flourishes in Baltimore because 1. it gets his ass away from his recording studios during the week and 2. he's surrounded by more talented guys so he gets great matchups. He'd still be laying turds for us every Sunday if we'd kept him.

Also, we only "payed" Warren all of about $4M. Thats what happens when a skillfully run front office renegotiates with a player, they make loop holes for themselves.

Ed Reed and Steven Jackson could have BOTH been on this roster now!
Thats just stupid. We had a history of pulling premier HBs out of the later rounds, so you really wanted to drop a first on one? After seeing what we got with Portis as a 2nd rounder you'd have to be insane to do that. We needed LB help, we got LB help. As for Reed, he wouldn't be half the player away from Baltimore's system where, despite all their bitching, they let him freelance. Its why Rolle looked like a chump last year though, Reed didn't give him **** for help over the top. INTs are flashing, but so is biting on pump fakes and leaving your CB to get burnt out on the island. He encapsulates all that is the overrated "playmaker".

Free agent wise where do we start, for every good signing we get burned by several others. Dale Carter, Darryl Gardner, now Travis Henry??? Shannahan has sold his soul and taken unnecessary risks on veterans and overpaid mightily,
Darryl Gardner, basically walked out of that contract after his issues. Carter? He went broke and didn't pay back his signing bonus but otherwise walked away mostly unscathed. Henry will be the same thing. If he did pop positive and gets suspended he'll be cut and we'll get any paid signing bonus back for a contract violation. Off-field issues that get players cut is just about the safest exit in a pro contract there is. You get all your money and cap room back. Hell of a lot better than if Shanahan had signed someone only to have their knee blow out or some such thing.

Dre Bly is the next in line to fail.
That or make the pro-bowl for the 3rd time in 4 years. We'll see.

Trading Gerrard Warren was a mistake as well, after Warren had restructured his contract several times, now we have NO run D.
Wait, I thought Warren was a bad guy to keep? Also, his restructures are what let us get out almost entirely cap free. He wouldn't have made a difference in our run D because he doesn't even try in that kind of system. Why do you think Cleveland shipped us a 3rd overall selection, 325 pound DT when they were going to a 3-4 and didn't have a nose tackle? Warren refuses to play the two gap plugger role, he wants to freelance and rush the passer, despite his lack of mobility and NFL level moves.

Coaching, ever since kubiak left his offensive playcalling has been atrocious, especially in the redzone, and his coaching staffs have done terrible.
Really? I seem to recall our red zone percentage being pretty piss poor when Kubiak was still here, funny how a few years can change past statistics like that.

How many D coordinators are we going to go through? How many special teams coaches? Time and Time again he gets a free pass on these critical decisions.Robinson, Ray Rhodes, Coyer, and now Slowik (but really Bates). Four guys over Shanahan's 13 year tenure. I don't think we can complain about that, especially since one of them (Rhodes) left to go be with his pal Holmgren in Seattle.

Shannahan is still a great coach, but not here, not now, not in Denver anymore, its time for him to go and time for a new voice and a new coaching staff with fresh ideas and fresh motivation!

You got to do a lot better than Mike Martz as a new coach with fresh ideas.

Shanahan is still one of the best coaches in the NFL. Just because you had some fantasy about Jay leading us to the Super Bowl in his second year, despite instituting an entirely new defensive system and having major question marks across the OL, doesn't mean this team is off track in any way.

If anything Shanahan has spent the last couple years doing what everyone accuses him of not doing. Drafting well, forging veteran patch jobs for legitimate long term answers, and showing a new willingness to delegate responsibility (increased role of Sundquist and bringing in an outsider to take over the defense). Its paying off but its going to take some time to fully mature.

lazarus4444
10-04-2007, 11:30 PM
How about marty s. or bill cowher?



Disclaimer: Just contributing to the discussion. I love Shanny but he really needs to be just a coach and lay off of personnel decisions.

Bronco Billy
10-04-2007, 11:44 PM
How about marty s. or bill cowher?



Disclaimer: Just contributing to the discussion. I love Shanny but he really needs to be just a coach and lay off of personnel decisions.

Marty reminds me too much of Reeves' style. Cowher would be nice if we didn't already have Shanny.

DenverBrit
10-04-2007, 11:46 PM
Drek. Excellent response. :thumbs:

Los Broncos
10-04-2007, 11:47 PM
Charlie Weis anyone, anyone?

I love ND and Charlie but im not all for bringing him in to Denver.

Popcorn Sutton
10-04-2007, 11:50 PM
Since when is it all on Shanahan? Where does Ted Sundquist fit into this picture?

GoHAM
10-05-2007, 12:01 AM
When considering replacing Shanahan and all his faults (drafting/FA) real or perceived ask yourself who you would rather have coaching this team? In my mind there are only two coaches in the world I would consider, B. Belichick and T. Dungy. Now let's take a closer look at these candidates. Who are Belichick and Dungy's QB's? Unanimously the two best QB's in the league. Coincidences? I think not!!

Look what Shanahan did with a below average career backup in Griese and an average to above average Plummer. Do you think BB or Dungy could have duplicated Shanny's results? A HOF QB can gloss over alot of weaknesses and deficiencies on a team. For all those haters out there why don't you hold out judgement on Shanahan until you see what he can do with Cutler once Cutler reaches his full potential. Also remind yourself of the woeful state of our franchise when Mike was hired and how long it took him to win two Super Bowls.

Can we question some decisions made and results posted? Sure we can that's our right as die-hard fans of the Broncos. But do I want to replace Mike Shanahan as the God of my football world? Two Super Bowl wins and the hope of Cutler as my QB with Mike developing him say not just no but HELL NO!! Good or bad, win or lose, call me a homer, but Mike Shanahan is the coach of my Denver Broncos and forever shall be world without end, amen.

Victor
10-05-2007, 12:08 AM
Shanny is responsible for bringing in some questionable characters, for sure. After the last loss Marcus Thomas was giving interviews in the locker room with big Gucci-type sunglasses on and I was thinking he is still a douche who doesn't get it. Thomas will be the next one on the pot-train out of town.

When is the last time Shanny out-coached someone?

Yeah...I can't remember either. Get your crap together Shanny.

OBF1
10-05-2007, 12:20 AM
I will say it again.... That Urban Meyers guy coaching the Florida Gators is pretty damn good. Everywhere he has gone, he gets the most from his players. He got Chris Leak to win a title and managed to get Alex Smith as the #1 overall pick from Utah of all places. This guy is for real, He would be my first choice followed by Bill Cower. Cower did well with a Rookie names Rothlisberger if I remember.

Shanny spends Bowlens cash like there is no tomorrow with 1 playoff win to show for it over the past 10 seasons. I know that is good enough for alot of you. Shanny = Daniel Snyder..... Except Snyder has the kwan.

24champ
10-05-2007, 12:21 AM
Shanny is responsible for bringing in some questionable characters, for sure. After the last loss Marcus Thomas was giving interviews in the locker room with big Gucci-type sunglasses on and I was thinking he is still a douche who doesn't get it. Thomas will be the next one on the pot-train out of town.

When is the last time Shanny out-coached someone?

Yeah...I can't remember either. Get your crap together Shanny.

I believe Shanny called a TO vs the Raiders to save our ass earlier this year...no?

Bob's your Information Minister
10-05-2007, 12:25 AM
Shanahan has grown stale. His arrogance in thinking he could get away with signing a pothead, deadbeat dad RB and backing him up with ****ty UDFAs is now going to bite you in the ass.

And the guy is clueless when it comes to defense.

RhymesayersDU
10-05-2007, 12:26 AM
You know, I'm not against Shanny criticism. Call him out for bad plays/moves/etc. He's not God, he has made mistakes.

But if you're going to call for the guy to get canned, I'd really like to hear about a viable replacement. So far, I really haven't heard one.

Now granted, I'm skeptical about giving college coaches the job, just because pro sports are different than college sports. But the only real suggestion given has been Mike Martz.

And oh Cowher. I'd be up for Cowher, possibly. But people needs to realize he'd need to be here for a couple years at least. He'd have to re-do the whole defense. That would be a work in progress, IMO.

Bob's your Information Minister
10-05-2007, 12:26 AM
I believe Shanny called a TO vs the Raiders to save our ass earlier this year...no?

His greasy rat tactics are the only trick in the book left.

Victor
10-05-2007, 12:28 AM
I believe Shanny called a TO vs the Raiders to save our ass earlier this year...no?

If that is your evidence I rest my case...icing a Raider kicker at home to win the game? That's got to be the definition of damning with faint praise.

Bronco Billy
10-05-2007, 12:28 AM
When is the last time Shanny out-coached someone?

Yeah...I can't remember either. Get your crap together Shanny.

Shanny doesn't need to out-coach a lot of teams. His teams are usually better prepared from the week of practice. How many times have Denver scored on their opening possession over the years on his scripted plays to open the game?

I know that this season is going from bad to worse, but we are still tied for first in the AFC West. To answer your original question: Bill Belicheck and the Patriots are 1-5 against Shanny's Broncos since their first of three Super Bowl seasons (2001) and Bill's supposedly a "mastermind" and a "genious".

Victor
10-05-2007, 12:32 AM
Shanny doesn't need to out-coach a lot of teams. His teams are usually better prepared from the week of practice. How many times have Denver scored on their opening possession over the years on his scripted plays to open the game?

I know that this season is going from bad to worse, but we are still tied for first in the AFC West. To answer your original question: Bill Belicheck and the Patriots are 1-5 against Shanny's Broncos since their first of three Super Bowl seasons (2001) and Bill's supposedly a "mastermind" and a "genious".

I'm not calling for Shanny's head...I'm just saying that his moves off and on the field haven't exactly set the world on fire lately. Tigers don't change their stripes and dipshi*s like Henry cannot be trusted. Shanny built the offense around this guy. Shanny should know better.

24champ
10-05-2007, 12:33 AM
I will say it again.... That Urban Meyers guy coaching the Florida Gators is pretty damn good. Everywhere he has gone, he gets the most from his players. He got Chris Leak to win a title and managed to get Alex Smith as the #1 overall pick from Utah of all places. This guy is for real, He would be my first choice followed by Bill Cower. Cower did well with a Rookie names Rothlisberger if I remember.

Shanny spends Bowlens cash like there is no tomorrow with 1 playoff win to show for it over the past 10 seasons. I know that is good enough for alot of you. Shanny = Daniel Snyder..... Except Snyder has the kwan.

I'm not to sure about Urban Meyer being an NFL coach, the NFL is way more complicated and time consuming than college ball. I'm a big Urban Meyer fan but I just don't see him making the jump to the NFL. As long as Bowlen is the Owner of the Denver Broncos, Shanny is going to coach the Denver Broncos. Just the way it will be.

24champ
10-05-2007, 12:36 AM
If that is your evidence I rest my case...icing a Raider kicker at home to win the game? That's got to be the definition of damning with faint praise.

Hey Dude, any win vs the raiders is a great win.

Also Dude, I want to know who you think would be a better coach than Shanny?

Bronco Billy
10-05-2007, 12:40 AM
I'm not calling for Shanny's head...I'm just saying that his moves off and on the field haven't exactly set the world on fire lately. Tigers don't change their stripes and dipshi*s like Henry cannot be trusted. Shanny built the offense around this guy. Shanny should know better.

Ok. I understand now. I still trust Shanny's decision making, but you're right that he can't catch a break right now (except for the timeout against Oakland). Plus, he needs to find a way to get into the damn endzone.

bowtown
10-05-2007, 12:43 AM
So I read this thread and I see Boob and a whole bunch of fairweather fans who know little to nothing about the game of football, making generalized ignorant statements that could be made of any coach in the league who has been coaching for more than 10 years. And on the other side I see a whole bunch of regular posters who are students of the game and actually prove they know more than a little bit about football on a daily basis, dismissing the witch hunt as total lunacy. Wonder who might be right here. I'll give you a hint: It's not Bob.

Victor
10-05-2007, 12:46 AM
So I read this thread and I see Boob and a whole bunch of fairweather fans who know little to nothing about the game of football, making generalized ignorant statements that could be made of any coach in the league who has been coaching for more than 10 years. And on the other side I see a whole bunch of regular posters who are students of the game and actually prove they know more than a little bit about football on a daily basis, dismissing the witch hunt as total lunacy. Wonder who might be right here. I'll give you a hint: It's not Bob.

Hey, Shanny just called, you're late on giving him his nightly bj.

Bob's your Information Minister
10-05-2007, 12:47 AM
Wonder who might be right here. I'll give you a hint: It's not Bob.

Funny how I was right about Travis Henry (injury prone pothead) and I was right about your defense.

bowtown
10-05-2007, 12:47 AM
Hey, Shanny just called, you're late on giving him his nightly bj.

I didn't even mention Shanahan.

ScottXray
10-05-2007, 12:51 AM
When considering replacing Shanahan and all his faults (drafting/FA) real or perceived ask yourself who you would rather have coaching this team? In my mind there are only two coaches in the world I would consider, B. Belichick and T. Dungy. Now let's take a closer look at these candidates. Who are Belichick and Dungy's QB's? Unanimously the two best QB's in the league. Coincidences? I think not!!

Look what Shanahan did with a below average career backup in Griese and an average to above average Plummer. Do you think BB or Dungy could have duplicated Shanny's results? A HOF QB can gloss over alot of weaknesses and deficiencies on a team. For all those haters out there why don't you hold out judgement on Shanahan until you see what he can do with Cutler once Cutler reaches his full potential. Also remind yourself of the woeful state of our franchise when Mike was hired and how long it took him to win two Super Bowls.

Can we question some decisions made and results posted? Sure we can that's our right as die-hard fans of the Broncos. But do I want to replace Mike Shanahan as the God of my football world? Two Super Bowl wins and the hope of Cutler as my QB with Mike developing him say not just no but HELL NO!! Good or bad, win or lose, call me a homer, but Mike Shanahan is the coach of my Denver Broncos and forever shall be world without end, amen.


While the guy is going off the deep end in saying Shanny should go because of Henry's idiocy, there are some points that are valid.

1. Shanahan is not great at eveluating talent. Since Sundquist was elevated we have done better in drafting. That is NOT in Shannys favor...but is in Sundquists favor.

2. Saying he won two superbowls for us is a bit of a stretch. When you actually look at the TEAMS that won those, and the Players we had then....IF he had NOT won , with the talent there, he would definitely have underperformed. We had no less than FIVE HOF level players on those teams (Elway, T.D., Sharpe, Rod Smith in his Prime, Eddie Mac, Atwater, Zimmerman , Nalen, Habib, Mobley and a few more). He had a GREAT Offense , and steady ball hawking D. In fact he did underperform the first time (96) by NOT having the team ready for Jacksonville...a mistake that cost us a probable three-peat. So, I really think that giving him credit for those wins should be more of a "Well, he didn't blow those years." thing, in full hindsight.

3. Replacing all those players is where the trouble all comes from. And although we seem to have picked up some solid players on Offense (it is still too early to really say on Cutler and some of the receivers) the last few years, every player we have gotten on defense has been lost to trade, Injury or just plain BUSTs. Some of that is bad luck...but a lot of it is due to bad decisions..most of them by Shanahan. He has wasted a LOT of money that has resulted in suspensions and lost draft picks. If Henry does get suspended it will be another example of square pegs in round holes..something that has happened too often.

4. The offense we came out with on last Sunday (Indy) is the first really innovative thing Shanny has done in the last few years. It totally messed up their D and caught them unprepared. I was going to say that he has been rather stagnant in his game planning the last few years, but that shows he still CAN do it. He needs to do MORE of that though , because he really hasn't earned the mastermind title for at least three years... and in fact his play selection has been pretty weak overall.

5. While a lot of people like to give Griese crap, he was doing really well until the Oakland game that tore up his shoulder...after that he was never the same. He finished that game with a separated shoulder and continued to throw the second half ...and won the game. Why would Shanny allow his starting QB to go back in and destroy his throwing shoulder for the rest of the year to win one game? Because it was Oakland? Was it worth it?

I don't want to see Mike Shanahan fired he is our best Offensive mind....But I wouldn't mind seeing him put under a general manager that controlled personnel decisions. And if Mike wouldn't take that demotion...then a new young coach might bring a different perspective to the team. We are probably going to have a down year..I actually expect two before coming back. If its about the control, and not just winning, than Shanny maybe should go. I think right now is not the time to decide though.

bowtown
10-05-2007, 12:51 AM
Funny how I was right about Travis Henry (injury prone pothead) and I was right about your defense.

And you were wrong on about %80 of the other dumbass predictions you made this year. Bob, If you throw enough sh*t against the ceiling, some of it is bound to not hit your face on the way down.

BroncoSoja
10-05-2007, 12:58 AM
Did Shanahan put the joint in Travis' mouth???

Is that the only thing you got out of that?

Seems to me he provided much comments and facts then Mr. Henry (aka Hood Rat).

BroncoSoja
10-05-2007, 01:01 AM
Hey real quick, how many Superbowls has Shanahan won without Elway?....

Hell for that matter how many PLAYOFF GAMES has he won without John.


GG.. The End.

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:03 AM
Hey real quick, how many Superbowls has Shanahan won without Elway?....

Hell for that matter how many PLAYOFF GAMES has he won without John.


GG.. The End.

Does this include when he was offensive cord. with the niners? How many Super Bowls has John Elway won without Mike? Mike won before he came to Denver...

Dagmar
10-05-2007, 01:07 AM
This is a ridiculous thread. Some F-ing morons support this beloved team.

bowtown
10-05-2007, 01:07 AM
Hey real quick, how many Superbowls has Shanahan won without Elway?....

Hell for that matter how many PLAYOFF GAMES has he won without John.


GG.. The End.

Hey, real quick, how many Superbowls has Belicheck won without Brady? How many PLAYOFF GAMES?

How many has Dungy won without Manning?

blah blah blah

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:09 AM
This is a ridiculous thread. Some F-ing morons support this beloved team.

Seriously I think if we had a losing record, some people would actually commit suicide.

Los Broncos
10-05-2007, 01:12 AM
Seriously I think if we had a losing record, some people would actually commit suicide.

Ive never cried after a loss, but when things are bad i feel down.

Major hangover after some tough losses, but im right back at it come the weekend.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-05-2007, 01:15 AM
Who the hell would you rather have than shanny? Every year the guy puts a competitive team on the field. Go away.

Wes Mantooth
10-05-2007, 01:17 AM
This is retarted.

bpc
10-05-2007, 01:17 AM
God, are you guys serious? We just finally got the QB we need and now you guys are calling for Shanahan's head? Give me a break.

Cowher? Are you serious? Why would anybody on this board want him? He's old and doesn't have the hunger anymore. Even when he was in his prime, he won ONE super bowl.

The other times he was successful, the AFC was a joke and had no dominant teams until we came around bi!ch slapped them in 97'.

I think some of you guys are high. Some of you might think that could be a good or bad thing.

rovolution
10-05-2007, 01:20 AM
Hey real quick, how many Superbowls has Shanahan won without Elway?....

Hell for that matter how many PLAYOFF GAMES has he won without John.





Actually Mr. KnowItAll, Shanny does have a SB ring that had nothing to do with Elway.

You forget he was the one who turned Steve Young into a TWO time league MVP, the 2nd highest passer rating in NFL history, a SB MVP Performance...

Young was a bust in SF(even with Holmgren as OC) till Shanny came and made him a megastar in 1992.

OABB
10-05-2007, 01:22 AM
Bob,

the only thing funny about you is that you are a sad fat lonely clown who will never, ever, have the company of a woman. You are so absolutley repulsive, even to us here, who can only judge you with just mere letters and punctuation marks.

I imagine your fat soiled body and low confidence in your looks must pain you terribly. You have to get a rise out of us becuase we are the only people that pay attention to you in anyway. In the real world you are probably looked right through and dismissed as a lonely fat nobody with nothing to offer.

I imagine you probably cry to yourself every night after you are finished making love to your beloved jellyfilled doughnuts, and see the sight of your repulsive figure covered in red gelatonous goo. While you look around the room for a kleenex, you must realize at this same point everytime that no one will ever be there to console you. and worse, no one will ever want to give you any pleasure in any way.

You, instead, must move on, and type away here or on cheifs planet where you are no longer transparant. You must be combatative, because than, and only than, will anyone respond to you.

Just stop being such an attention whore. Fix yourself. go on a diet, engage in conversation that isn't so one sided and masturbatory and stop having sex with pastries. Soon your confidence will grow.

You can be somebody. It just takes effort. Get out of your moms house. get a job writing(not plagarizing) and start to exersize, engage in meaningful conversation with a person that has an actual vagina. I garuantee you will find solace some day.

good luck.

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:29 AM
[get outta my way morans!
http://media3.guzer.com/pictures/driving_cat.jpg
likker store clozin 5 minits!

Broncos4tw
10-05-2007, 01:31 AM
Shanny doesn't soley evaluate talent. We have scouts and position coaches, and they have a lot to say about who we draft and sign. I get sick of people pinning crap on coaches (not just ours). Team having a slump? Fire the coach! Player is monumentally stupid? Fire the coach!

There is no miracle coach that would come in and make this team instantly a winner. Shanny is considered one of the premier coaches in the league for a reason. I'd guess with almost any coach we get in, we'd be absolute crap for another 4 years or so, and maybe go through another coach or two while we find the "right one."

Shanny is fine. The team is fine. We are training up fresh troops, give them time. And don't blame a stupid decision by a player on the coach. Travis wasn't a "problem" player. Aside from his stupidity with the pot, he is a solid player. You can't avoid player because of "what ifs." Some players are just going to be stupid, not much you can do.

And whoever said Griese was doing great... lay off the crack pipe. He was a mediocre QB that only performed if he had perfect protection, passing his lofty 3 yard average passes all day long. The shoulder injury didn't ruin him. His shoulder is fine. He is a pussy, that's the problem with Griese.

Garcia Bronco
10-05-2007, 01:32 AM
If Henry blows up like it looks like I'd say Shanny deserves to be fired and we could look for a young hot shot coach or a proven older HC.

In other words...we could fire him and hire any coach.

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:34 AM
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/2005624302389479735_rs.jpg

ZONA
10-05-2007, 01:51 AM
It's frickin amazing that we are 2-2 and just lost to the defending champs and everybody wants to run somebody out of town. First it was DJ, then Bates and now the cry for Shanny's head? We've played 4 games..........WTF? Honestly, there were a few plays that turned that Jacksonville game for the worse. We could have had that game, even as bad as we played.

We've hired some good coaches, got some damn good WR's, a nice young gifted QB, some new DL from the draft. I think this is the starting point of some good things. You may chose to look at it like the egg is breaking but I think it's a delux omlet about to be perfectly cooked up.

cutthemdown
10-05-2007, 01:53 AM
In other words...we could fire him and hire any coach.

Since when is every coach out there a hot young prospect or a proven older coach? Whatever though I realize most of you won't turn on Shanny, but he has so many personel mistakes that are starting to add up. Many have cost Bowlen a lot of money. If Shanny just wasted 12 mil in bonus money to Henry after the Gardener fiasco and wasting a ton on Warren, I could understand it if Bowlen starts to get ideas of making a change.

DB_champ24
10-05-2007, 02:04 AM
I cant believe this arguement is still even going on

DenverBrit
10-05-2007, 03:16 AM
The Broncos are operated on a high-risk, high-reward basis.
They take a run at players who are risky sometimes but have great upside.
We love it when they stay in the hunt most years.......unlike the other AFC west teams who either go into a slump after a SB appearance....or, like the Chiefs, stay mediocre and never get near the SB.
Denver never hit the re-building slump that SD and the Raiders went through. So making up for consistently low draft choices, they take chances on players in FA, or wheel and deal in the draft to move into position for players.
Some of the personnel decisions are shaky and are seen as such from the start, but that comes with the desire to win and make a run at another SB each year.
So when a player does something as dumbass as Henry has done it's a huge disappointment and stupid on many levels. Those are the risks the Broncos take in order to keep the team in the upper echelon.
Maybe some fans need a more conservative team to root for.......again, the Chiefs would be a fit. But to call for the HC to be fired each time a decision backfires is as stupid as Henry smoking another joint.
Bowlen understand the risks and puts his money where his mouth is.....we fans are fortunate to have such free-spending Broncos ownership. Look around at the AFC West......does anyone see a coach or owner you'd rather have in Denver??
I like the competitive nature of the Broncos organization, it's not perfect, but it keeps it interesting.

24champ
10-05-2007, 03:26 AM
The Broncos are operated on a high-risk, high-reward basis.
They take a run at players who are risky sometimes but have great upside.
We love it when they stay in the hunt most years.......unlike the other AFC west teams who either go into a slump after a SB appearance....or, like the Chiefs, stay mediocre and never get near the SB.
Denver never hit the re-building slump that SD and the Raiders went through. So making up for consistently low draft choices, they take chances on players in FA, or wheel and deal in the draft to move into position for players.
Some of the personnel decisions are shaky and are seen as such from the start, but that comes with the desire to win and make a run at another SB each year.
So when a player does something as dumbass as Henry has done it's a huge disappointment and stupid on many levels. Those are the risks the Broncos take in order to keep the team in the upper echelon.
Maybe some fans need a more conservative team to root for.......again, the Chiefs would be a fit. But to call for the HC to be fired each time a decision backfires is as stupid as Henry smoking another joint.
Bowlen understand the risks and puts his money where his mouth is.....we fans are fortunate to have such free-spending Broncos ownership. Look around at the AFC West......does anyone see a coach or owner you'd rather have in Denver??
I like the competitive nature of the Broncos organization, it's not perfect, but it keeps it interesting.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/stoned.jpg

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-05-2007, 03:35 AM
...a powerful STAND ALONE GENERAL MANAGER would help leaps and bounds.

That's the ticket. :thumbsup:

Keep Shanny as head coach.

DukeWoody
10-05-2007, 04:19 AM
I think it's time for the spineless, gutless, coward fans to go because say if there was a coaching change and things didn't work out rosie right away, then these would be the same people first in line screaming for another change, rinse and repeat...Shanahan deserves to stay and have a chance to buid this young, inexperienced team up...People need to set realistic goals and expectations for this year and not panic when we're sitting at 2-2 with another 12 games to play...

Popps
10-05-2007, 04:56 AM
I'm a big Shanahan guy, but I told you all this was coming. Fans will start clammoring, and if we lose a couple more, the media will start in with their "whispers" columns.

I'm telling you, it's the WAY we're losing, folks. This has been an embarrassingly soft team thus far, and those are the types of teams that get coaches fired.

The other element that'll get a coach run out of town is team disarray. We don't have any of that, or do we?

I hope things pull together. I'd hate to lose Shanahan. But, it's going to take a real turnaround to keep those "whispers" at bay.

eddie mac
10-05-2007, 05:29 AM
Is that the only thing you got out of that?

Seems to me he provided much comments and facts then Mr. Henry (aka Hood Rat).

It's the only thing that's ****ing relevant considering this bull**** thread was posted AFTER YES AFTER the news about Henry's impending 1 year suspension broke.

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 05:56 AM
This thread is ridiculous. It pains me to know that some of you people claim to be Broncos fans.

cutthemdown
10-05-2007, 06:55 AM
What a joke that being a Bronco fan mean blind loyalty to so many. It reminds me of the Repubs saying you are unpatriotic if you don't support the war. Bunch of B.S if you ask me. Hey Brew Crew those pains are probably caused by having your head up your arse!!!

eddie mac
10-05-2007, 07:00 AM
What a joke that being a Bronco fan mean blind loyalty to so many. It reminds me of the Repubs saying you are unpatriotic if you don't support the war. Bunch of B.S if you ask me. Hey Brew Crew those pains are probably caused by having your head up your arse!!!

Think it's the timing more than anything. Where are all the.

1. Dont sign him Shanny he's a dopehead
2. You're risking the franchise bringing that chump in
3. $22m on Henry, you might as well have pissed it into a cup Shanahan.

Threads whenever we signed Travis???

I dont remember seeing anything like that.

eddie mac
10-05-2007, 07:03 AM
I'm a big Shanahan guy, but I told you all this was coming. Fans will start clammoring, and if we lose a couple more, the media will start in with their "whispers" columns.

I'm telling you, it's the WAY we're losing, folks. This has been an embarrassingly soft team thus far, and those are the types of teams that get coaches fired.

The other element that'll get a coach run out of town is team disarray. We don't have any of that, or do we?

I hope things pull together. I'd hate to lose Shanahan. But, it's going to take a real turnaround to keep those "whispers" at bay.

I'd go further Popps and say it's the way we've played in every game this season. We haven't looked comfortable at all.

defenseman
10-05-2007, 09:03 AM
I'm not going to say **** about getting rid of Shanny (useless on here and Pat Bowlen loves the guy)

But this is all Shanny's mess... He has 100% control over the Broncos personel moves.

Ultimately, shanahan makes all of the personnel moves. I'll agree that T. Henry is the culprit in this scenario, however, Shanahan, by virtue of making all the personnel decisions, is wearing this square around his neck. If he's not, he shouldn't be making the personnel decisions...dman

*Bottom line is, no one will call him out on T. Henry's mis-step under the present circumstances. Possibly later if alot more negative information hits the table that shanahan was aware of.

Rock Chalk
10-05-2007, 09:09 AM
This thread is retarded but not as retarded as the ****ing retard who created it.

Rock Chalk
10-05-2007, 09:10 AM
OMG you people are so mad at Travis Henry? Why? Who gives a ****. Honestly, one back goes down, another steps in. Thats not the problem nor will it ever be the problem in Denver as long as Shanahan is here.

Id rather see Selvin Young anyway.

Pick Six
10-05-2007, 09:26 AM
Alright. Let's get some perspective. Denver is 2-2 and people are considering this a bad season. The Raiders are 2-2 and are celebrating. The fact is that Shanahan has given Denver a chance to compete for a championship year in and year out.

Drek
10-05-2007, 09:48 AM
OMG you people are so mad at Travis Henry? Why? Who gives a ****. Honestly, one back goes down, another steps in. Thats not the problem nor will it ever be the problem in Denver as long as Shanahan is here.

Id rather see Selvin Young anyway.

Pretty much.

Would you all feel better if Henry blew his knee out and we were on the hook for that whole contract?

If he gets suspended he gets cut and he owes us back every last dime of bonus money and loses the remaining salary. Cap hit = ZERO.

The league has personal conduct policies in every contract, I'm sure Henry's included at least as many as every other player, probably more. Of all the bad things we've had happen with our RBs over the past decade this is probably the easiest to stomach.

Recoup that fat contract, get Young, Hall, and Bell into rotation. One of the three will take the job by season's end and we'll have a young, cheap back to compliment the young talent we've cultivated at WR, OL, TE, and QB.

Circle Orange
10-05-2007, 09:49 AM
I swear to God over 75% of the members here have ADD.

Panic striken, I think.

However, at some point this issue HAS to be addressed seriously. It's early, so there's no need for everyone freaking out. BUT if they have a so so season, what will the pundits and fans say? I never thought for a minute that a young Qb would come in and 'save the day'. Orange tinted glasses are one thing, insanity is another. Besides, half the league has "young qb with strong arm, makes plays and stands tall."

Their strengths and weaknesses are a bad mix...its like putting bird legs on a hippo.

Circle Orange
10-05-2007, 09:52 AM
This thread is retarded but not as retarded as the ****ing retard who created it.

Meet all the other shills at FIRESHANAHAN.com....free incest courses. Knuckledraggers all welcome, please comb all body hair before joining.

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 10:11 AM
What a joke that being a Bronco fan mean blind loyalty to so many. It reminds me of the Repubs saying you are unpatriotic if you don't support the war. Bunch of B.S if you ask me. Hey Brew Crew those pains are probably caused by having your head up your arse!!!

You're just an a-hole... It's not blind loyalty. I want Henry off this team and the Broncos to recoup his signing bonus ASAP. I'm the last one to support idiots like this guy. That doesn't mean I mail in my fan card and start calling for everybody's head...

enjolras
10-05-2007, 10:51 AM
Isn't it all about results? My lack of faith in Shannahan has nothing to do with 2-2 this year. It's the huge amount of mediocrity this team has had for many years running.

Result: 1 playoff win in nearly a decade. Just a handful of playoff appearances period. An absolute shellacking (at HOME) in the AFC championship game.

This team has faded down the stretch nearly every year. I'm sorry, but the Denver Broncos I root for don't settle for this crap. I still believe that Shannahan can win, but he's going to have to learn that football starts up front. Our lines have gotten increasingly worse and even less physical. I want Shannahan around, but dammit I want him to start fixing real problems. We didn't need another pro bowl corner in Bly, we needed some real strength up front (or least a safety that can cover something).

The simple fact is: This team has not seriously competed for a championship in a long damn time. We're the Detroit Lions at this point.. always just hanging around the playoff hunt but never a serious threat to compete. This team isn't even in the same stratosphere as the Patriots (who, btw have been incredible over this same stretch), the Colts (the same), or even the Dallas Fricking Cowboys.

The whole thing just sucks.

Meck77
10-05-2007, 11:17 AM
I'm glad there weren't message boards back in the 80's when we were getting hammered in Superbowls. I don't think this board is representative of season ticket holders but if it is then a lot of eager fans will be moved up the list come next season. That is a good thing.

defenseman
10-05-2007, 11:20 AM
This thread is ridiculous. It pains me to know that some of you people claim to be Broncos fans.

Bronco fans come in all shapes, sizes and colors. In addition, each has his or her own unique perception of reality, and opinion of that reality. Perhaps there are those who will call you out for not believing shanahan isn't at least partially responsible, and don't fool yourself, he is. It comes with the umbrella of responsibility he imposes on himself. To hang your own perception of what a fan is, or isn't is unrealistic. However, if that is your opinion, have at it...it won't change a thing wrt who claims or doesn't claim to be a fan...dman

fontaine
10-05-2007, 11:20 AM
If Shanahan is fired then the Chargers would be all over him like a cheap suit and with the talent they have over there, Shanahan would win multiple superbowls not to mention own Denver like he's owned the faders since he got here: Like a rented mule.

The chargers were one of the most talent laden teams in the entire NFL last year and who did they end up getting Norv Turner.

So who do we get to be the head coach? Jim freakin' Bates, Heimerdinger?

GTFOH.

Young project QB, with a zone blocking line, broken front 7 on D and no Special Teams.

Who do we attract as a head coach with that profile? Guys like Steve Mariucci that's who.

Broncomutt
10-05-2007, 11:33 AM
Wonder if we could get Cowher??

Meh, Bowlen isn't going to let Shanny go anyway.

bronco militia
10-05-2007, 11:34 AM
lol...fire shanny?

you guys are morons

Beej
10-05-2007, 11:43 AM
Shanahan's the man. I wouldn't trade him for any other coach right now. He's kept this team competitive year after year, and it'd be foolish to fire him.

But if he *was* fired, I think the next best reasonable choice would be Bill Parcells. I'd really like to see Elway as head coach, but I think he would need some more experience first.

HAT
10-05-2007, 12:09 PM
Cowher will be coaching in SD next year.

Always cracks me up when peeps call out other posters 'fan-dom' simply b/c they question the current state of affairs.

Yes, Shanny always seems to have this team in the hunt for the PO's but the bottom line is, since the SB years:

Broncos under Shanny averaging 9.5 wins & 6.5 losses....have made the PO's 50% of the time...gone 1-4 in said PO's....3 of those four PO seasons were "one and done's"...drafting mid-20's every year.

That's the very definition of mediocrity. And I am somehow less of a Bronco fan because I prefer my team to be better than mediocre???

Shanny is not going anywhere anytime soon simply b/c there isn't a suitable replacement. But the original poster is correct, he has been here too long.
And that's not a knock on Shanny, Bowlen, or the Broncos organization...it's just that in this day and age, no HC should be with any single team for 12+ years. It's time for some new blood. Shanny needs to step down, take a year off and wait for his next opportunity (hopefully in the NFC). It will be good for him and the Denver Broncos. Mike Shanahan is a helluva football coach and I will always be grateful that he finally got our team over the top a decade ago......but the marraige has lost it's spark.

Elway knew when it was time to call it quits and I hope that Shanny will realize soon that there's nothing left for him to accomplish in Denver and gracefully step aside for the good of the team.

TailgateNut
10-05-2007, 12:11 PM
I'd really like to see Elway as head coach, .


LOL ROFL! LOL

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 12:14 PM
Isn't it all about results? My lack of faith in Shannahan has nothing to do with 2-2 this year. It's the huge amount of mediocrity this team has had for many years running.

Result: 1 playoff win in nearly a decade. Just a handful of playoff appearances period. An absolute shellacking (at HOME) in the AFC championship game.

This team has faded down the stretch nearly every year. I'm sorry, but the Denver Broncos I root for don't settle for this crap. I still believe that Shannahan can win, but he's going to have to learn that football starts up front. Our lines have gotten increasingly worse and even less physical. I want Shannahan around, but dammit I want him to start fixing real problems. We didn't need another pro bowl corner in Bly, we needed some real strength up front (or least a safety that can cover something).

The simple fact is: This team has not seriously competed for a championship in a long damn time. We're the Detroit Lions at this point.. always just hanging around the playoff hunt but never a serious threat to compete. This team isn't even in the same stratosphere as the Patriots (who, btw have been incredible over this same stretch), the Colts (the same), or even the Dallas Fricking Cowboys.

The whole thing just sucks.



You are comparing the Broncos to the Lions... ?? ?? ??

You know what. I agree... Let's take one of the most stable organizations over the last couple decades and completely shake it up. Then we can start looking for new coaches every few years like the rest of our division.

That will fix all the problems. It was Shanahan and Shanahan alone who caused these issues. Ted Sundquist, Pat Bowlen, and the rest of the staff just sat back and watched him do it?



I got news for all you "fans" out there. It was Shanahan that set all these high standards in the first place. Have the Broncos been the best over the past 10 years? No. Have they been in the playoffs multiple times and only had one losing season? Yes. 1 LOSING SEASON since he's been the coach. Do you people understand how spoiled you've become? The Broncos are 1 year removed from an AFC Championship appearance. What gives? The most wins of any team in the NFL since 1995 (when Shanahan took over the Broncos head coaching job).

Comparing the Broncos to the Lions ?? Give me a break.

rovolution
10-05-2007, 12:25 PM
You are comparing the Broncos to the Lions... ?? ?? ??

You know what. I agree... Let's take one of the most stable organizations over the last couple decades and completely shake it up. Then we can start looking for new coaches every few years like the rest of our division.

That will fix all the problems. It was Shanahan and Shanahan alone who caused these issues. Ted Sundquist, Pat Bowlen, and the rest of the staff just sat back and watched him do it?



I got news for all you "fans" out there. It was Shanahan that set all these high standards in the first place. Have the Broncos been the best over the past 10 years? No. Have they been in the playoffs multiple times and only had one losing season? Yes. 1 LOSING SEASON since he's been the coach. Do you people understand how spoiled you've become? The Broncos are 1 year removed from an AFC Championship appearance. What gives? The most wins of any team in the NFL since 1992 (when Shanahan took over the Broncos head coaching job).

Comparing the Broncos to the Lions ?? Give me a break.


Shanny took over in 1995.

He was the OC for the 49ers from 1992-1994


Its just remarkable how Broncos fans know little to nothing about Shanahan's coaching career.

Go watch his In Their Own Words special on the History of the Broncos DVD. Its a very good documentary on his career.

HAT
10-05-2007, 12:39 PM
Have they been in the playoffs multiple times and only had one losing season? Yes. 1 LOSING SEASON since he's been the coach. Do you people understand how spoiled you've become? The Broncos are 1 year removed from an AFC Championship appearance. What gives?

One losing season, and a whole bunch of average ones. Like I said, they are averaging 9.5 wins and 6.5 losses per season post SB.

1 yr removed from AFCCG: That's spin if I've ever heard it. They won ONE game (their only post SB PO win I might add) only to get waxed at home in said AFCCG.

If you are comfortable with 9-7 one year, 10-6 the next, PO appearance every other year, first round exit most times, getting to the AFCCG once a decade, etc........than Shanny is your guy.

Beantown Bronco
10-05-2007, 12:54 PM
If you are comfortable with 9-7 one year, 10-6 the next, PO appearance every other year, first round exit most times, getting to the AFCCG once a decade, etc........than Shanny is your guy.

Only about 2 or 3 coaches have an at least debatable "better" track record over the last 9 years, if you are solely grading them on winning seasons and playoff wins. And none of them are available.....so, move along.

[And, technically, you are wrong about the "once a decade" reference. Over the last 10 years, Shanny has made it to the AFCCG three times and won it twice. Only one other coach can say the same.]

Beej
10-05-2007, 01:04 PM
LOL ROFL! LOL

Laugh if you want, but with some coaching experience (maybe as an OC for 5 years or so) I think he could do pretty well.

BroncoSoja
10-05-2007, 01:04 PM
It's the only thing that's ****ing relevant considering this bull**** thread was posted AFTER YES AFTER the news about Henry's impending 1 year suspension broke.

Yeah that makes sense....

BroncoSoja
10-05-2007, 01:06 PM
Does this include when he was offensive cord. with the niners? How many Super Bowls has John Elway won without Mike? Mike won before he came to Denver...


As a Head coach.. HEAD COACH

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 01:08 PM
Shanny took over in 1995.

He was the OC for the 49ers from 1992-1994


Its just remarkable how Broncos fans know little to nothing about Shanahan's coaching career.

Go watch his In Their Own Words special on the History of the Broncos DVD. Its a very good documentary on his career.

Hey **** wad... It was a typo... You got the point!!! Does it give you some sort of satisfaction to point that out?

I have the DVD you prick. You just here to point out errors or do you have something to add?

BroncoSoja
10-05-2007, 01:09 PM
Actually Mr. KnowItAll, Shanny does have a SB ring that had nothing to do with Elway.

You forget he was the one who turned Steve Young into a TWO time league MVP, the 2nd highest passer rating in NFL history, a SB MVP Performance...

Young was a bust in SF(even with Holmgren as OC) till Shanny came and made him a megastar in 1992.


Yeah cause we know it was all Shanahan waving his magic wand that made Young a good player..

Wonder why it didin't work for Griese Ball, Plummer, etc... Guess the batteries in the wand were dead.


Like I said before HOW MANY Superbowls or Playoff games for that matter has Mike won (AS A HEAD COACH) without John Elway. Simple freaking question yet so many people here want to dodge it.

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 01:15 PM
Yeah cause we know it was all Shanahan waving his magic wand that made Young a good player..

Wonder why it didin't work for Griese Ball, Plummer, etc... Guess the batteries in the wand were dead.


Like I said before HOW MANY Superbowls or Playoff games for that matter has Mike won (AS A HEAD COACH) without John Elway. Simple freaking question yet so many people here want to dodge it.

How many head coaches never have a chance to even appear in a Superbowl? It's a simple freaking question....

OABB
10-05-2007, 01:18 PM
I remember 4th and 6 during superbowl 32...I was at qualcom in the packers section and I have never been more elated.

Do you know why? because they finally won, and because I stuck with them the whole time. THe losses, the embarrasments, all made it more special to say world champs.

Now, I see everyone expect superbowls to com every year... it's insane in todays league to even field a competitive team year in and year out. Peyton Manning has won one superbowl and everyone forgets about how inept him and dungy were in the playoffs for YEARS....

Funny, how everyone loves dungy's "nice guy" approach only a year after his kicker said he was too soft.

the point....This is the NFL. Championships are earned not bought, and you can't just cheat your way in( unless your the new england pastericks).. to suggest firing one of the best coaches in the league, maybe top 15 of all time becuase he hasn't won a superbowl only shows how stupid and spoiled most of you are.

This debate has gone on too long and it's time to end it. The only people that debate this are bandwagon pussies or spoiled rotten bitches. ANyone who knows anything about football knows how good we have it and accept the reality of the situation.

I am ashamed to be aquainted with some of you.

HAT
10-05-2007, 01:20 PM
Only about 2 or 3 coaches have an at least debatable "better" track record over the last 9 years, if you are solely grading them on winning seasons and playoff wins. And none of them are available.....so, move along.

Like I said....He isn't going anywhere anytime soon and there's nothing left for him to accomplish in Denver. He's a proven winner and has a couple of championships on his resume.

But that doesn't mean he should have coach for life status......

Reeves had a great run in the 80's also. But had he not stepped....er, been pushed aside, we may have not ever had Shanahan in Denver.

Does that mean I want to suffer through a few years of a Wade Phillips type situation? Of course not, but if it means finding the 'next Shanahan'....so be it.

I am a Mike Shanahan fan but I am first and foremost a Denver Broncos fan. And IMO it is time for a new era....maybe not this year and maybe not even the next, but it needs to happen soon.

It's become a stale relationship and I believe both parties benefit by moving on.

OBF1
10-05-2007, 01:23 PM
So who do we get to be the head coach? Jim freakin' Bates, Heimerdinger?

GTFOH.

Young project QB, with a zone blocking line, broken front 7 on D and no Special Teams.


You just nailed it on the head and didn't even realize it.

Who do we get as a coach? Bates or Heimerdinger. And a broken front 7 and no special teams.

WHO IS TO BLAME FOR ALL THAT YOU POST..... SHANNY Congratulations, you win a prize

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 01:23 PM
I remember 4th and 6 during superbowl 32...I was at qualcom in the packers section and I have never been more elated.

Do you know why? because they finally won, and because I stuck with them the whole time. THe losses, the embarrasments, all made it more special to say world champs.

Now, I see everyone expect superbowls to com every year... it's insane in todays league to even field a competitive team year in and year out. Peyton Manning has won one superbowl and everyone forgets about how inept him and dungy were in the playoffs for YEARS....

Funny, how everyone loves dungy's "nice guy" approach only a year after his kicker said he was too soft.

the point....This is the NFL. Championships are earned not bought, and you can't just cheat your way in( unless your the new england pastericks).. to suggest firing one of the best coaches in the league, maybe top 15 of all time becuase he hasn't won a superbowl only shows how stupid and spoiled most of you are.

This debate has gone on too long and it's time to end it. The only people that debate this are bandwagon pussies or spoiled rotten b****es. ANyone who knows anything about football knows how good we have it and accept the reality of the situation.

I am ashamed to be aquainted with some of you.

Well said.

OBF1
10-05-2007, 01:27 PM
One losing season, and a whole bunch of average ones. Like I said, they are averaging 9.5 wins and 6.5 losses per season post SB.

1 yr removed from AFCCG: That's spin if I've ever heard it. They won ONE game (their only post SB PO win I might add) only to get waxed at home in said AFCCG.

If you are comfortable with 9-7 one year, 10-6 the next, PO appearance every other year, first round exit most times, getting to the AFCCG once a decade, etc........than Shanny is your guy.

I am with you on this, But alot of posters are happy with this kind of average result.

telluride
10-05-2007, 01:27 PM
Shanny is and will be fine as head coach. In any case he isn't going anywhere anytime soon. But boy do I wish he'd let go of his personnel duties -- and not to Sundquist. Can you imagine what this team would be like if Scott Pioli were picking the players for Shanny to coach?

HAT
10-05-2007, 01:27 PM
You just nailed it on the head and didn't even realize it.

Who do we get as a coach? Bates or Heimerdinger. And a broken front 7 and no special teams.

WHO IS TO BLAME FOR ALL THAT YOU POST..... SHANNY Congratulations, you win a prize

:notworthy

BTW...
D, looking forward to getting up to BW's with your bro one of these weeks when you're not in Denver.

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:27 PM
As a Head coach.. HEAD COACH

Like I said, Shanny has won elsewhere other than with the Raiders. What has Elway done without Mike? Like someone else said, what has Belichick and Dungy have done without their star QB's? It's all good though everyone with a brain on this forum knows you have your head up your ass when it comes to football.

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 01:27 PM
This was posted before the season by topscribe on BroncosMania:

In the Shanahan Era:

1. No other AFC West team has won a Superbowl.
2. The rest of the AFC West has made only 1 Superbowl appearance and lost it.
3. The Broncos have made 3 AFC Championship games appearances while the rest of the AFC West has made only 2.
4. The Broncos have made 7 playoff appearances.
5. The Broncos have made the playoffs 60% of the time.
6. The Broncos appeared in the AFC Championship game 25% of the time.
7. The Broncos have accumulated a win/loss record of 123/69. That is a 65% winning percentage.
8. The Broncos rank first in the NFL in rushing yards (25,022, 142.2 per game).
9. The Broncos rank first in the NFL in total offense (64,235 yards, 365.0 per game).
10. The Broncos rank first in per-game scoring average (25.2 ppg., 4,440 points).

Here is what the rest of the AFC West has done since Shanahan took over for the Broncos:

1. The rest of the AFC West combined has been to one Superbowl and lost it.
2. The Raiders have made only 3 playoff appearances, and have a pathetic win/loss record of 83/109 (43% winning percentage).
3. The Chiefs have been average during this time period making 4 playoff appearances and generating a win/loss record of 111/81 (57% winning percentage).
4. The Chargers have been almost as pathetic as the Raiders with 3 playoff appearances and a pathetic win/loss record of 87/105 (45% winning percentage).

Some additional stats about Shanahan:

1. Shanahan was the first coach in history to win two Super Bowl titles in his first four years coaching a team.
2. Shanahan has joined Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick as the only six coaches to win back-to-back Super Bowls.
3. Shanahan is one of only four coaches who have spent at least 10 seasons with one team, and have had more world championship seasons than losing campaigns. The other three hall of famers are Paul Brown, Joe Gibbs and John Madden.
4. Shanahan, Joe Gibbs and Tony Dungy are the active coaches with 10 plus seasons and a winning percentage above 60%.

defenseman
10-05-2007, 01:27 PM
I remember 4th and 6 during superbowl 32...I was at qualcom in the packers section and I have never been more elated.

Do you know why? because they finally won, and because I stuck with them the whole time. THe losses, the embarrasments, all made it more special to say world champs.

Now, I see everyone expect superbowls to com every year... it's insane in todays league to even field a competitive team year in and year out. Peyton Manning has won one superbowl and everyone forgets about how inept him and dungy were in the playoffs for YEARS....

Funny, how everyone loves dungy's "nice guy" approach only a year after his kicker said he was too soft.

the point....This is the NFL. Championships are earned not bought, and you can't just cheat your way in( unless your the new england pastericks).. to suggest firing one of the best coaches in the league, maybe top 15 of all time becuase he hasn't won a superbowl only shows how stupid and spoiled most of you are.

This debate has gone on too long and it's time to end it. The only people that debate this are bandwagon pussies or spoiled rotten b****es. ANyone who knows anything about football knows how good we have it and accept the reality of the situation.

I am ashamed to be aquainted with some of you.

Right set of circumstances in a given scenario, no one is above criticism and absolutely no one is irreplaceable. No one....dman

*that said, Shanny isn't or shouldn't go anywhere given the present scenario and circumstances surrounding it.....

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:28 PM
I remember 4th and 6 during superbowl 32...I was at qualcom in the packers section and I have never been more elated.

Do you know why? because they finally won, and because I stuck with them the whole time. THe losses, the embarrasments, all made it more special to say world champs.

Now, I see everyone expect superbowls to com every year... it's insane in todays league to even field a competitive team year in and year out. Peyton Manning has won one superbowl and everyone forgets about how inept him and dungy were in the playoffs for YEARS....

Funny, how everyone loves dungy's "nice guy" approach only a year after his kicker said he was too soft.

the point....This is the NFL. Championships are earned not bought, and you can't just cheat your way in( unless your the new england pastericks).. to suggest firing one of the best coaches in the league, maybe top 15 of all time becuase he hasn't won a superbowl only shows how stupid and spoiled most of you are.

This debate has gone on too long and it's time to end it. The only people that debate this are bandwagon pussies or spoiled rotten b****es. ANyone who knows anything about football knows how good we have it and accept the reality of the situation.

I am ashamed to be aquainted with some of you.

Solid post sir.

OBF1
10-05-2007, 01:30 PM
How many head coaches never have a chance to even appear in a Superbowl? It's a simple freaking question....

So you are saying we should hire back Dan Reeves? He got 4 teams to the superbowl. Thats twice as many as Shanny.

BTW Brew.... where are your season tickets located? Being a REAL fan you must sit on the freekin bench with the players

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 01:33 PM
So you are saying we should hire back Dan Reeves? He got 4 teams to the superbowl. Thats twice as many as Shanny.

BTW Brew.... where are your season tickets located? Being a REAL fan you must sit on the freekin bench with the players

I was born in Arvada, CO in 1976 and I moved to North Carolina this year. I do not have season tickets. What kind of post is this? I've gone from being a fan of my team through the good times and the bad to sitting on the bench with the players? Nice one.

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:34 PM
.

Does that mean I want to suffer through a few years of a Wade Phillips type situation? Of course not, but if it means finding the 'next Shanahan'....so be it.


How many years did it take for the Broncos to find a "Shanahan" hmm? You know I guarantee if we let go of Mike Shanahan we would look like the current Chargers with a coach that has an IQ of most of the posters on here that are calling for Shanahans head...thankfully we have Bowlen who isn't going to let Mike Shanahan go anywhere as long as he is Owner.

defenseman
10-05-2007, 01:35 PM
I was born in Arvada, CO in 1976 and I moved to North Carolina this year. I do not have season tickets. What kind of post is this? I've gone from being a fan of my team through the good times and the bad to sitting on the bench with the players? Nice one.

Where at in NC? I should be heading out to Raleigh soon enough...dman

*pretty nice time of the year down there from what I hear.

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:36 PM
So you are saying we should hire back Dan Reeves? He got 4 teams to the superbowl. Thats twice as many as Shanny.

BTW Brew.... where are your season tickets located? Being a REAL fan you must sit on the freekin bench with the players
I guess you are one of the few that liked those SB blowouts! Ha!

Rigs11
10-05-2007, 01:38 PM
the NFL is a "what have you done for me lately" league. How many more years does shanny get? How many more QB's does this franchise go through?It's becoming obvious that shanny is losing some of his mastermindeness.The play calling is predictable, he has been through 4 qbs in under 9 years.He used to be able to draft unknowns and turn them into great players and then let them go to other teams. He now drafts 'problem' players like clarett and henry. We need a change.

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 01:38 PM
Where at in NC? I should be heading out to Raleigh soon enough...dman

*pretty nice time of the year down there from what I hear.

I live in Cary just south of Raleigh. It's pretty nice right now but I miss CO. big time. By heading out, do you mean moving or just visiting?

OBF1
10-05-2007, 01:40 PM
I was born in Arvada, CO in 1976 and I moved to North Carolina this year. I do not have season tickets. What kind of post is this? I've gone from being a fan of my team through the good times and the bad to sitting on the bench with the players? Nice one.


Never said that, YOU are the one making judgement on who is a good fan and who is a bad fan soley based on how some posters feel about the head coach of this team. By the time you have your first football memories, I had been through 4 superbowl losses with this team, many lean years, many teams with real bad players and coaching situations.... Yet I still drag my a$$ to Denver many times every season to cheer on my favorite team. I have been there through all the bad and all of the good and will continue to do so.

So I think I have earned the right to be considered a "real fan" but unlike others here, I will question the performance of my favorite team, the direction they appear to be heading and any coach who I feel have been making alot of bad decisions over the past 10 seasons. Hope to seee you in the lot and talk about of team

OABB
10-05-2007, 01:41 PM
One losing season, and a whole bunch of average ones. Like I said, they are averaging 9.5 wins and 6.5 losses per season post SB.

1 yr removed from AFCCG: That's spin if I've ever heard it. They won ONE game (their only post SB PO win I might add) only to get waxed at home in said AFCCG.

If you are comfortable with 9-7 one year, 10-6 the next, PO appearance every other year, first round exit most times, getting to the AFCCG once a decade, etc........than Shanny is your guy.


So you're just counting the last ten years, and not the first three? those don't count, now? or they don't cpunt for your argument?

Agreed, it is frustrating to lose and to be wiped out in the playoffs early. None more frustrating than the afccg because we really were the better team in my opinion. But, as I pointed out a few posts ago, the steelers like the colts were completely inept in the playoffs. Cowher was well know to be the worst afccg coach ever....the point again. they won and now everyone considers him a great coach.

you could take the last 10 years from cowher, dungy and anyone despite bellicheck and you will find that your argument becomes very stupid. WHen you win, you are great, and when you don't you are a chump. this is the life of being a coach in a league full of fans lie you.

If you look at his career over the past 12 years and compare it to a string of twelve years against most coaches, you will find that he stacks up pretty well. Sure, walsh and noll faired better but they didn't have to contend with fa and 30% roster tunover on top of a salary cap...so Actually he does very well...

finally, if we did win that steelers game, and in todays league of parity, it was possible, and had that one game gone differently...Shannahan would have been the first coach ever to win a superbowl, rebuild in Today's era, and get back to one.

HOw would bellicheat have dne if tom brady retired sfter the secnd superbowl? what if the second best player on the team tore his acl and never fully recovered? What if Walsh lost montana? and rice busted his leg?

you know the answer as well as I do. You are way off base and coming from nowhere. so Yes, Shannahan is MY coach, and a great one at that.

last point: when we do get back to the promise land, you don't get to celebrate, o.k?

Beantown Bronco
10-05-2007, 01:42 PM
He used to be able to draft unknowns and turn them into great players and then let them go to other teams. He now drafts 'problem' players like clarett and henry. We need a change.

At least 20 roster moves every off-season and you are b*tching about the one or two a year that are problem children that don't pan out. Wow.

HAT
10-05-2007, 01:42 PM
How many years did it take for the Broncos to find a "Shanahan" hmm? You know I guarantee if we let go of Mike Shanahan we would look like the current Chargers with a coach that has an IQ of most of the posters on here that are calling for Shanahans head...thankfully we have Bowlen who isn't going to let Mike Shanahan go anywhere as long as he is Owner.

You quoted me out of context.....That quote had more to do with Reeves than anything else.

Anyway, show me where I've said that Shanahan needs to be fired? He won't be and doesn't deserve to be.

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 01:43 PM
Never said that, YOU are the one making judgement on who is a good fan and who is a bad fan soley based on how some posters feel about the head coach of this team. By the time you have your first football memories, I had been through 4 superbowl losses with this team, many lean years, many teams with real bad players and coaching situations.... Yet I still drag my a$$ to Denver many times every season to cheer on my favorite team. I have been there through all the bad and all of the good and will continue to do so.

So I think I have earned the right to be considered a "real fan" but unlike others here, I will question the performance of my favorite team, the direction they appear to be heading and any coach who I feel have been making alot of bad decisions over the past 10 seasons. Hope to seee you in the lot and talk about of team

Fair enough. However, I do think you are a bit spoiled compared to say 80 percent of the NFL who shared a lot less success than Denver the last 12 years under Mike Shanahan.

Like I posted earlier:

In the Shanahan Era:

1. No other AFC West team has won a Superbowl.
2. The rest of the AFC West has made only 1 Superbowl appearance and lost it.
3. The Broncos have made 3 AFC Championship games appearances while the rest of the AFC West has made only 2.
4. The Broncos have made 7 playoff appearances.
5. The Broncos have made the playoffs 60% of the time.
6. The Broncos appeared in the AFC Championship game 25% of the time.
7. The Broncos have accumulated a win/loss record of 123/69. That is a 65% winning percentage.
8. The Broncos rank first in the NFL in rushing yards (25,022, 142.2 per game).
9. The Broncos rank first in the NFL in total offense (64,235 yards, 365.0 per game).
10. The Broncos rank first in per-game scoring average (25.2 ppg., 4,440 points).

Here is what the rest of the AFC West has done since Shanahan took over for the Broncos:

1. The rest of the AFC West combined has been to one Superbowl and lost it.
2. The Raiders have made only 3 playoff appearances, and have a pathetic win/loss record of 83/109 (43% winning percentage).
3. The Chiefs have been average during this time period making 4 playoff appearances and generating a win/loss record of 111/81 (57% winning percentage).
4. The Chargers have been almost as pathetic as the Raiders with 3 playoff appearances and a pathetic win/loss record of 87/105 (45% winning percentage).


The only thing I can't figure is why weren't all of you calling for his head before the Travis Henry situation popped up?

Rigs11
10-05-2007, 01:46 PM
At least 20 roster moves every off-season and you are b*tching about the one or two a year that are problem children that don't pan out. Wow.

Yeah and what has that produced?And I see you didn't quote me on the part where I stated that shanny used to draft unknowns and turn them into great players. Now he lets these players go to other teams. Thoughts?

OABB
10-05-2007, 01:48 PM
Right set of circumstances in a given scenario, no one is above criticism and absolutely no one is irreplaceable. No one....dman

*that said, Shanny isn't or shouldn't go anywhere given the present scenario and circumstances surrounding it.....

of course...Criticism is one thing. Fire blazing torches and chicken little ramblings only make those people look foolish. Hindsight is 20/20 so I can go back and name numerous mistakes by shanny, but would have to overlook the good choices too. It isn't fair to fine tooth comb through someone's every decision from the comfort of our easy-chairs.

could you imagine if someone followed you to work and commented on every decision you made the last twelve years. overlooked to good and just harped on what few decisions they didn't like.

YOU MUST look at the entire career to pass judgement, and in shanny's case the good far outweighs the bad and no one is infallable.
there is no other coach I would even consider over SHannahan...and that is based on facts, good and bad.

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:49 PM
Yeah what's Art Shell doing these days? Maybe we can bring Martyball to Denver, or how about hiring a Herm Edwards type...because obviously Mike Shanahan does not play to win the game. How about Cowher? Only took him 13 years to win one with the Steelers. Maybe coach Billick will do great here, after all he has done WONDERFUL since he won the SB in 2000.

Oh the decisions to make with so many better coaches out there with a better track record than Shanny.:unamused:

OBF1
10-05-2007, 01:50 PM
You would have to go back a number of seasons. I have not been the biggest Shanny fan for maybe the past 5 or 6 years, but that is just me. I have never started a FIRE shanny thread or started a fireshannahan.com site either. I just have not accepted alot of the bad personel choices he has made, Both coaching staff and player wise or alot of the consistant bad play calling that still goes on ever season. Every time I see us in a 3rd and 7 and the team calls a 3 yard pass play wit ZERO chance of making the 1st down I get a bit pi$$ed off.

Shanny will not live for ever, So one day we will have a new coach here.

TheChamp24
10-05-2007, 01:53 PM
If we let Shanny go, Chargers probably snatch him up and they win the Super Bowl while we look like dumbasses trying to replace him

defenseman
10-05-2007, 01:53 PM
I live in Cary just south of Raleigh. It's pretty nice right now but I miss CO. big time. By heading out, do you mean moving or just visiting?

Job interview...dman

Beantown Bronco
10-05-2007, 01:53 PM
Yeah and what has that produced?And I see you didn't quote me on the part where I stated that shanny used to draft unknowns and turn them into great players. Now he lets these players go to other teams. Thoughts?

Name some unknowns that Shanny let go to another team and they all of a sudden became a star elsewhere.

I'll bet I can name more that he dished off to other teams and they started sucking or have been consistently hurt and unable to perform as well since they left.

This should be fun.

defenseman
10-05-2007, 01:56 PM
of course...Criticism is one thing. Fire blazing torches and chicken little ramblings only make those people look foolish. Hindsight is 20/20 so I can go back and name numerous mistakes by shanny, but would have to overlook the good choices too. It isn't fair to fine tooth comb through someone's every decision from the comfort of our easy-chairs.

could you imagine if someone followed you to work and commented on every decision you made the last twelve years. overlooked to good and just harped on what few decisions they didn't like.

YOU MUST look at the entire career to pass judgement, and in shanny's case the good far outweighs the bad and no one is infallable.
there is no other coach I would even consider over SHannahan...and that is based on facts, good and bad.

I partially agree. Given a very serious mistake or violation thereof, anyone can get canned. In shanahan's case, I'm guessing it would have to be a blatant major screwup. I'm thinking he's smart enough to avoid that..dman

HAT
10-05-2007, 01:57 PM
So you're just counting the last ten years, and not the first three? those don't count, now? or they don't cpunt for your argument?

Agreed, it is frustrating to lose and to be wiped out in the playoffs early. None more frustrating than the afccg because we really were the better team in my opinion. But, as I pointed out a few posts ago, the steelers like the colts were completely inept in the playoffs. Cowher was well know to be the worst afccg coach ever....the point again. they won and now everyone considers him a great coach.

you could take the last 10 years from cowher, dungy and anyone despite bellicheck and you will find that your argument becomes very stupid. WHen you win, you are great, and when you don't you are a chump. this is the life of being a coach in a league full of fans lie you.

If you look at his career over the past 12 years and compare it to a string of twelve years against most coaches, you will find that he stacks up pretty well. Sure, walsh and noll faired better but they didn't have to contend with fa and 30% roster tunover on top of a salary cap...so Actually he does very well...

finally, if we did win that steelers game, and in todays league of parity, it was possible, and had that one game gone differently...Shannahan would have been the first coach ever to win a superbowl, rebuild in Today's era, and get back to one.

HOw would bellicheat have dne if tom brady retired sfter the secnd superbowl? what if the second best player on the team tore his acl and never fully recovered? What if Walsh lost montana? and rice busted his leg?

you know the answer as well as I do. You are way off base and coming from nowhere. so Yes, Shannahan is MY coach, and a great one at that.

last point: when we do get back to the promise land, you don't get to celebrate, o.k?

I don't know why everyone is lumping in me in with the fire Shanahan crowd.
No where in this thread have I said that. Of course, his first 3 years count and I already said I am forever grateful. Just like I am for what Reeves did in the 80's.

Mike Shanahan is an excellent football coach.
Mike Shanahan should be revered for all that he has accomplished in Denver.
Mike Shanahan is one of the best HC's of my football life (I'm 36)
Mike Shanahan wouldn't surprise me in the least should he win another SB
(I just don't think it will be with Denver)

Mike Shanahan and the Denver Broncos, however, has become stale....the spark's fizzled, 7 year itch (in this case 13)...

The time has come to start thinking about a mutually beneficial parting of ways.

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 01:58 PM
You would have to go back a number of seasons. I have not been the biggest Shanny fan for maybe the past 5 or 6 years, but that is just me. I have never started a FIRE shanny thread or started a fireshannahan.com site either. I just have not accepted alot of the bad personel choices he has made, Both coaching staff and player wise or alot of the consistant bad play calling that still goes on ever season. Every time I see us in a 3rd and 7 and the team calls a 3 yard pass play wit ZERO chance of making the 1st down I get a bit pi$$ed off.

Shanny will not live for ever, So one day we will have a new coach here.

The problems you've mentioned happen in every organization. The successful organizations have stability at the top and don't go firing a head coach because he (along with the GM of the team) picked up some duds in the FA market or had a couple years of bad draft picks. In case you haven't noticed there have been some good things happen over the last couple years. The draft has been good.. Not more than a couple years ago the Broncos stole Champ Bailey from Washington. They just got Dre Bly for 2 players in the doghouse. The Broncos wiggled there way up from 29 to 11 to pick up a franchise QB. Give it a couple years to iron itself out. I agree it's been tough to watch the team at times but it's coming around. There is a lot of young studs on this team and they are only going to get better. Outside of the New England's and Indy's... the Broncos are in the next group of teams consistently. It could be much worse!!!

24champ
10-05-2007, 01:59 PM
I don't know why everyone is lumping in me in with the fire Shanahan crowd.
No where in this thread have I said that. Of course, his first 3 years count and I already said I am forever grateful. Just like I am for what Reeves did in the 80's.

Mike Shanahan is an excellent football coach.
Mike Shanahan should be revered for all that he has accomplished in Denver.
Mike Shanahan is one of the best HC's of my football life (I'm 36)
Mike Shanahan wouldn't surprise me in the least should he win another SB
(I just don't think it will be with Denver)

Mike Shanahan and the Denver Broncos, however, has become stale....the spark's fizzled, 7 year itch (in this case 13)...

The time has come to start thinking about a mutually beneficial parting of ways.

Good luck trying to convince Bowlen.:giggle:

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 02:00 PM
Job interview...dman

Good luck bro. If your in town during a Bronco game... send me a PM if you want to watch the game.

defenseman
10-05-2007, 02:02 PM
Good luck bro. If your in town during a Bronco game... send me a PM if you want to watch the game.

roger that...dman

OABB
10-05-2007, 02:06 PM
I don't know why everyone is lumping in me in with the fire Shanahan crowd.
No where in this thread have I said that. Of course, his first 3 years count and I already said I am forever grateful. Just like I am for what Reeves did in the 80's.

Mike Shanahan is an excellent football coach.
Mike Shanahan should be revered for all that he has accomplished in Denver.
Mike Shanahan is one of the best HC's of my football life (I'm 36)
Mike Shanahan wouldn't surprise me in the least should he win another SB
(I just don't think it will be with Denver)

Mike Shanahan and the Denver Broncos, however, has become stale....the spark's fizzled, 7 year itch (in this case 13)...

The time has come to start thinking about a mutually beneficial parting of ways.


perhaps we should see how this current team he has built fairs....don't you think. He didn't oust elway or davis or wilson or mcaffrey. injuries caught up to us, griese was a mistake, but an understandable one as Shanny is very cerebral and mistook Griese intellegence for football smarts.

Plummer resurected his career under shannahan and yes we did get to the afccg with him and our defense. The problem was, that was as far as that team was gonna get. Shanny knew this and has finally begun to rebuild this team. WE drafted a QBOTF, and he has been more aggressive this past year than any I could remember. He wants to win more than any of us want him to win.

If he could get greise to the playoffs, take plummer to the cg, i would like to see what he does with a real QB. one who can throw and run, and who studies. Our defense will come around,a nd there isn't anymore he could do here.

We all state that he hasn't paid attention to d line, but we have the number one running game, a great young qb, the best secondary and we continue to grow, WE have a great young pass rusher in dville and all these moves are because of our GM and coach.

No team is solid across the board. Indy? run defense.etc. etc.

I beleive this team is being built to contend by next year, and again, when they do get there, I will remind you that you thought a change of pace was neccesary, o.k?

Beantown Bronco
10-05-2007, 02:08 PM
First you say:

I don't know why everyone is lumping in me in with the fire Shanahan crowd.
No where in this thread have I said that.

and then later in the very same post, you say:

The time has come to start thinking about a mutually beneficial parting of ways.

And yet you wonder why people lump you in with the "fire Shanahan" crowd? Shocking.

Beej
10-05-2007, 02:09 PM
I nominate Mediator for the Broncos next head coach! Any 2nds?

HAT
10-05-2007, 02:10 PM
Good luck trying to convince Bowlen.:giggle:

I won't need to. I believe that 2 or 3 more 9-7, maybe get into the PO's, maybe not type seasons will convince MS himself that it's time to move on, step away for a year and pick his next opportunity where he can come back hungry.

It's going to work out beautifully for Cowher. Kick back for a year and inherit a very talented Charger team and live in a city like SD?

HAT
10-05-2007, 02:12 PM
First you say:



and then later in the very same post, you say:



And yet you wonder why people lump you in with the "fire Shanahan" crowd? Shocking.


Yes, I do wonder. I don't believe Shanahan should be fired. I've said that multiple times now....Shocking.

HAT
10-05-2007, 02:15 PM
perhaps we should see how this current team he has built fairs....don't you think. He didn't oust elway or davis or wilson or mcaffrey. injuries caught up to us, griese was a mistake, but an understandable one as Shanny is very cerebral and mistook Griese intellegence for football smarts.

Plummer resurected his career under shannahan and yes we did get to the afccg with him and our defense. The problem was, that was as far as that team was gonna get. Shanny knew this and has finally begun to rebuild this team. WE drafted a QBOTF, and he has been more aggressive this past year than any I could remember. He wants to win more than any of us want him to win.

If he could get greise to the playoffs, take plummer to the cg, i would like to see what he does with a real QB. one who can throw and run, and who studies. Our defense will come around,a nd there isn't anymore he could do here.

We all state that he hasn't paid attention to d line, but we have the number one running game, a great young qb, the best secondary and we continue to grow, WE have a great young pass rusher in dville and all these moves are because of our GM and coach.

No team is solid across the board. Indy? run defense.etc. etc.

I beleive this team is being built to contend by next year, and again, when they do get there, I will remind you that you thought a change of pace was neccesary, o.k?

All great points and I will gladly eat whatever crow dish you serve up. ^5

Beantown Bronco
10-05-2007, 02:16 PM
Yes, I do wonder. I don't believe Shanahan should be fired. I've said that multiple times now....Shocking.

When something like this happens, either the employer or the employee can try to sugar coat it all they want, but a mutually beneficial parting of the ways and being fired are essentially the same thing. It happens all the time and everyone knows it when, on some random Friday afternoon, they see that e-mail go around.

OABB
10-05-2007, 02:23 PM
All great points and I will gladly eat whatever crow dish you serve up. ^5

As will I, once Shannahan calls a qb sneak on the five yard line again....

Rigs11
10-05-2007, 02:47 PM
Name some unknowns that Shanny let go to another team and they all of a sudden became a star elsewhere.

I'll bet I can name more that he dished off to other teams and they started sucking or have been consistently hurt and unable to perform as well since they left.

This should be fun.



never said that. They became stars here and then he let them go. hayward, kennedy,droughns,warren,berry.

O'neal got cut and he is doing great in cincy.

Garcia Bronco
10-05-2007, 02:51 PM
never said that. They became stars here and then he let them go. hayward, kennedy,droughns,warren,berry.

O'neal got cut and he is doing great in cincy.

Hayward, Kennedy, Droughns, Warren, nor Berry are stars on any other team...nor have those teams won anything significant in part because of their contribution. Nor is O'Neal.

Beantown Bronco
10-05-2007, 02:55 PM
never said that. They became stars here and then he let them go. hayward, kennedy,droughns,warren,berry.

O'neal got cut and he is doing great in cincy.

[Garcia beat me to it]

O'Neal has had one good year in Cincy, but he's gotten toasted on a regular basis. Just like he was here. The rest, aside from one isolated season from Berry, were better in Denver than they have turned out to be in the other places they've gone.....just like Portis, and more recently Tatum Bell and George Foster.

fontaine
10-05-2007, 03:10 PM
Like I said before HOW MANY Superbowls or Playoff games for that matter has Mike won (AS A HEAD COACH) without John Elway. Simple freaking question yet so many people here want to dodge it.

The same number as Belichick has won without Brady, the same with Dungy without Manning etc etc which is zero.

BroncoSoja
10-05-2007, 03:47 PM
The same number as Belichick has won without Brady, the same with Dungy without Manning etc etc which is zero.

Brady nor Manning have retired yet while these 2 Head Coachs have been in charge.. Get back to me in about 9 years with this silly argument.


I know its hard for you beer goggle bronco shade wearing Fans to fathom. But maybe just maybe Coach "Can't do no wrong" is not what many think he is. Hell he lost the 'Mastermind' tittle a few years ago if you ask me after being outcoached time and time agian by better coachs.

His playcalling (inside the 20 exp) is horrific since John Left, His decision making is being exposed, His player selections have time and time agian been sub-par, hell I could go on and on here.

I gave up calling for Shannys head, its just not going to happen. But I would love to see a REAL general manager brought and get rid of the puppet we have here now. I would also love to see a new Offensive Coord brought in to infuse a bit of life in this Red Zone stank fest we have had for years now behind the "Mastermind".

But ofcourse who am I right? What the hell do I know?..... I know this, we have only won 1 playoff game in several years, and have been the whipping boys for Manning and company for far to long under a John Elway less Shanny Bronco team.

Beantown Bronco
10-05-2007, 03:54 PM
Brady nor Manning have retired yet while these 2 Head Coachs have been in charge.. Get back to me in about 9 years with this silly argument.

But both were head coaches for a few years before these QBs were in the league....and neither even made it to a SB during those years, so the argument he (and others) presented is valid.

snowspot66
10-05-2007, 03:56 PM
Brady nor Manning have retired yet while these 2 Head Coachs have been in charge.. Get back to me in about 9 years with this silly argument.

Silly argument? Dungy coached the Buc's and BB coached the Browns before their current gigs if I remember right. Don't recall them doing **** there. They took over teams with great QBs and massive potential. Even with that it still took Dungy years and a lot of luck.

broncocalijohn
10-05-2007, 03:56 PM
Brady nor Manning have retired yet while these 2 Head Coachs have been in charge.. Get back to me in about 9 years with this silly argument.

How about Tom Landry and Staubach? He couldnt win with anyone after that. Noll and Bradshaw.

TotallyScrewed
10-05-2007, 03:57 PM
I can't believe this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm sure you're shocked...put me down as a Shanahan man. I dare anyone to post the link where they saw this meltdown of T. Henry prior to Mike signing him...maybe it's there and I missed it but I doubt it.

Both of these last two games were winable if they execute and don't turn the ball over.

Don't ya'll have girl scout cookies to sell down at the local supermarket??

bowtown
10-05-2007, 03:59 PM
How many head coaches never have a chance to even appear in a Superbowl? It's a simple freaking question....

Because it's stupid a$$ question that can be asked of almost any coach in the league... except most of the coaches haven't won a Super Bowl EVER. It just shows that you are completely ignorant to how the NFL works and that you don't know enough about the game or it's history to be able to accurately judge success. You need to stop making yourself look like an idiot and just drop your obsession with this fallacy of an argument.

snowspot66
10-05-2007, 03:59 PM
This thread should be in the Butt

Arkansas Bronco
10-05-2007, 04:04 PM
I can't believe this thread has gone on as long as it has. I'm sure you're shocked...put me down as a Shanahan man. I dare anyone to post the link where they saw this meltdown of T. Henry prior to Mike signing him...maybe it's there and I missed it but I doubt it.

Both of these last two games were winable if they execute and don't turn the ball over.

Don't ya'll have girl scout cookies to sell down at the local supermarket??

:thumbs: We have one of the best coaches in the NFL and since Henry fails a drug test you want him fired. Hell he has probably been our coach longer then a bunch of you whiners have been fans, if thats what you want to call yourselves.

BroncoSoja
10-05-2007, 04:04 PM
But both were head coaches for a few years before these QBs were in the league....and neither even made it to a SB during those years, so the argument he (and others) presented is valid.


Don't know much about Brian but I know for sure that Dungy as HEAD COACH took TB to the NFC championship (and a year later the team he built won the SB) WITHOUT MANNING. And Mike did exactly what in his other coaching stint? Oh thats right he got fired by the lowly Raiders for a having a poor record and being a Employee of a mental midget.

Punisher
10-05-2007, 04:07 PM
I JUST WANT TO SAY **** YOU TO THIS THREAD and go to hell

BroncoSoja
10-05-2007, 04:08 PM
How about Tom Landry and Staubach? He couldnt win with anyone after that. Noll and Bradshaw.

What other teams did Tom Landry and Noll head coach for? What other teams did they get fired from?

Like I said before Shanny cannot win when it counts in the Playoffs, except for that one game that the Defense won for him agianst NE) without Elway.

He is a good coach but he needs help (offensive Coord +New General Manager) if we are to be contenders agian.

bowtown
10-05-2007, 04:12 PM
Don't know much about Brian but I know for sure that Dungy as HEAD COACH took TB to the NFC championship (and a year later the team he built won the SB) WITHOUT MANNING. And Mike did exactly what in his other coaching stint? Oh thats right he got fired by the lowly Raiders for a having a poor record and being a Employee of a mental midget.

But Dungy didn't win the Super Bowl. Gruden did. In fact, Dungy was fired specifically becasue he couldn't win it with that exact same team.

And if you want to talk first time coaching stints, why don't you go check out the amazing years Belicheck put together in Cleveland.

It's fun to just cherry pick facts for your arguments and gloss over the other stuff, right?

Stormontheplains
10-05-2007, 04:13 PM
"You're either with shanahan or with the Raiders"

if your with the raiders you can then **** off!

TailgateNut
10-05-2007, 04:13 PM
Brady nor Manning have retired yet while these 2 Head Coachs have been in charge.. Get back to me in about 9 years with this silly argument.


I know its hard for you beer goggle bronco shade wearing Fans to fathom. But maybe just maybe Coach "Can't do no wrong" is not what many think he is. Hell he lost the 'Mastermind' tittle a few years ago if you ask me after being outcoached time and time agian by better coachs.

His playcalling (inside the 20 exp) is horrific since John Left, His decision making is being exposed, His player selections have time and time agian been sub-par, hell I could go on and on here.

I gave up calling for Shannys head, its just not going to happen. But I would love to see a REAL general manager brought and get rid of the puppet we have here now. I would also love to see a new Offensive Coord brought in to infuse a bit of life in this Red Zone stank fest we have had for years now behind the "Mastermind".

But ofcourse who am I right? What the hell do I know?..... I know this, we have only won 1 playoff game in several years, and have been the whipping boys for Manning and company for far to long under a John Elway less Shanny Bronco team.


You don't think that the loss of ol' man Gibbs and the graduation of Kubiak had anything to do with it? Do Ya?
Teams have their ups as well as their downs.
You sound like one of the wagon jumpers who got on the cart when we won the SBs and now you wittle feewings are hurt because we are not on top of all of the charts.

I'm not giving all the credit to Shanahan, and I'm also not placing all the blame there.

This is a team sport, with multiple coaches, trainers and players and if a few cogs are broken the whole wagon drags ass!

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 05:07 PM
Because it's stupid a$$ question that can be asked of almost any coach in the league... except most of the coaches haven't won a Super Bowl EVER. It just shows that you are completely ignorant to how the NFL works and that you don't know enough about the game or it's history to be able to accurately judge success. You need to stop making yourself look like an idiot and just drop your obsession with this fallacy of an argument.

Dude, you completely took it out of context and missed the point but carry on calling me ignorant and an idiot.

Go back and read my posts... Hell, maybe next time you won't leave out the post that I was responding to. Here it is just for you:


Random poster calling for Shanahan to be fired says:

Like I said before HOW MANY Superbowls or Playoff games for that matter has Mike won (AS A HEAD COACH) without John Elway. Simple freaking question yet so many people here want to dodge it.

Then I respond:

How many coaches ever even get a chance to be in a Superbowl?

Now, you want to clarify why you are calling me ignorant and an idiot?

The reason I asked the question is many, hell the majority of coaches in the NFL never even reach the Superbowl and several fans on this board want Shanahan gone because the Broncos haven't won the Superbowl since 1998. Who cares that the Broncos have only had one losing season since Shanahan has been our coach. Forget the fact that Elway had 3 chances to win a Superbowl before Shanahan became the coach and couldn't do it. Forget the fact that the Broncos have won more games than any other team in the NFL since 1995. Let's fire him because he hasn't taken the Broncos to the promised land in 8 years. Let's fire him because he along with Ted Sundquist took the leap on a player they thought had put some things in the past.

It sure seems silly to me. But hey, my argument is some sort of fallacy... and I'm an ignorant idiot.

broncofan2438
10-05-2007, 05:23 PM
This thread is crazy

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 05:28 PM
This thread is crazy

I'm sorry but I can't just stand by and watch people rip into Shanahan after all he has done in Denver. Is he perfect? Hell no but he's alot more successful than the majority of coaches in the NFL.

bowtown
10-05-2007, 05:31 PM
Dude, you completely took it out of context and missed the point but carry on calling me ignorant and an idiot.

Go back and read my posts... Hell, maybe next time you won't leave out the post that I was responding to. Here it is just for you:



Then I respond:



Now, you want to clarify why you are calling me ignorant and an idiot?

The reason I asked the question is many, hell the majority of coaches in the NFL never even reach the Superbowl and several fans on this board want Shanahan gone because the Broncos haven't won the Superbowl since 1998. Who cares that the Broncos have only had one losing season since Shanahan has been our coach. Forget the fact that Elway had 3 chances to win a Superbowl before Shanahan became the coach and couldn't do it. Forget the fact that the Broncos have won more games than any other team in the NFL since 1995. Let's fire him because he hasn't taken the Broncos to the promised land in 8 years. Let's fire him because he along with Ted Sundquist took the leap on a player they thought had put some things in the past.

It sure seems silly to me. But hey, my argument is some sort of fallacy... and I'm an ignorant idiot.


Woah, woah... I'm on your side here, man. My post was in response to Broncosoja, which is why I quoted him. My post was saying the same thing yours was.

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 05:33 PM
Woah, woah... I'm on your side here, man. My post was in response to Broncosoja, which is why I quoted him. My post was saying the same thing yours was.

My apologies.

You actually quoted me right here: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1740667&postcount=196

and proceeded to call me ignorant and an idiot. LOL

TDmvp
10-05-2007, 05:45 PM
ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzz


for the record

wolf754life
10-05-2007, 05:47 PM
accountability.....................SHANNY has none, always an excuse why that player didn't pan out, always an out, its never his fault, when will some of his moves pan out? The browncos?


Marcus Nash
Terry Peirce (2nd round bust)
Willie Middlebrooks
Ashley Lelie
Dale Carter
Darius Watts
Jeremy LeSueur
Maurice Clarrett
Eric Brown S (who? our second rounder in 98)
Daryl Gardner
Paul Tovesi (2nd round bust)
George Foster
Tatum Bell
Ian GOld (shannys boyfriend, horrible player)
Tory James (left free agency and led the league in INTS)
Deltha Oneil
DJ Williams (Bust who will leave via Free Agency)

Do you guys need more names? Anyother coach in the league that flunks the draft that badly doesn't get to hang around for 13 yrs, add that to his coaching staff decisions, his playcalling, and risk free agents and you get this...........a team in BIG trouble, the worst kind of trouble, stuck/mired in mediocrity.............................

sugar coat it all you want........
Gerard Warren (letting him go when we absolutely needed him)
Trevor Pryce (letting him go)
Reggie Hayward (letting him go)
Bertrand Berry (letting him go)
Brian Greise
Jeb Putzier

Popcorn Sutton
10-05-2007, 05:56 PM
accountability.....................SHANNY has none, always an excuse why that player didn't pan out, always an out, its never his fault, when will some of his moves pan out? The browncos?


Marcus Nash
Terry Peirce (2nd round bust)
Willie Middlebrooks
Ashley Lelie
Dale Carter
Darius Watts
Jeremy LeSueur
Maurice Clarrett
Eric Brown S (who? our second rounder in 98)
Daryl Gardner
Paul Tovesi (2nd round bust)
George Foster
Tatum Bell
Ian GOld (shannys boyfriend, horrible player)
Tory James (left free agency and led the league in INTS)
Deltha Oneil
DJ Williams (Bust who will leave via Free Agency)

Do you guys need more names? Anyother coach in the league that flunks the draft that badly doesn't get to hang around for 13 yrs, add that to his coaching staff decisions, his playcalling, and risk free agents and you get this...........a team in BIG trouble, the worst kind of trouble, stuck/mired in mediocrity.............................

sugar coat it all you want........
Gerard Warren (letting him go when we absolutely needed him)
Trevor Pryce (letting him go)
Reggie Hayward (letting him go)
Bertrand Berry (letting him go)
Brian Greise
Jeb Putzier

Wow. Just wow. I can't believe I'm outnumbered in this thread. All those personnel moves you've listed above and how many teams have won more games in Shanahan's tenure?



NONE.

I guess all the non-cliff jumpers are smarter than I am and choose not to respond to this lunacy. I've officially retired from this thread.

Flame away Shanahan haters.

wolf754life
10-05-2007, 06:01 PM
how many meaningful games? 1 against the pats, one in 9 yrs. enough already!

Hotrod
10-05-2007, 06:03 PM
Wow. Just wow. I can't believe I'm outnumbered in this thread. .

Dont sweat it your not outnumbered the rational ones are just avoiding this retarded thread.

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 06:09 PM
accountability.....................SHANNY has none, always an excuse why that player didn't pan out, always an out, its never his fault, when will some of his moves pan out? The browncos?


Marcus Nash
Terry Peirce (2nd round bust)
Willie Middlebrooks
Ashley Lelie
Dale Carter
Darius Watts
Jeremy LeSueur
Maurice Clarrett
Eric Brown S (who? our second rounder in 98)
Daryl Gardner
Paul Tovesi (2nd round bust)
George Foster
Tatum Bell
Ian GOld (shannys boyfriend, horrible player)
Tory James (left free agency and led the league in INTS)
Deltha Oneil
DJ Williams (Bust who will leave via Free Agency)

Do you guys need more names? Anyother coach in the league that flunks the draft that badly doesn't get to hang around for 13 yrs, add that to his coaching staff decisions, his playcalling, and risk free agents and you get this...........a team in BIG trouble, the worst kind of trouble, stuck/mired in mediocrity.............................

sugar coat it all you want........
Gerard Warren (letting him go when we absolutely needed him)
Trevor Pryce (letting him go)
Reggie Hayward (letting him go)
Bertrand Berry (letting him go)
Brian Greise
Jeb Putzier



List some other coaches (made it or bust lists) just to be fair.

TheChamp24
10-05-2007, 06:20 PM
sugar coat it all you want........
Gerard Warren (letting him go when we absolutely needed him)
Trevor Pryce (letting him go)
Reggie Hayward (letting him go)
Bertrand Berry (letting him go)
Brian Greise
Jeb Putzier

Warren is hard to say at this point
Pryce - he was due 9 million and wasn't taking a pay cut, and succeded due to the amount of talent on that Baltimore defense
Hayward - signed for what, $5 million a year? What the hell has he done in Jacksonville?
Berry - I've heard practically nothing from him in 2 years. He had a decent year right after he left, but nothing since and has been injury prone
Griese - WHAT THE HELL? This guy is a loser
Putzier - okay, enough, you are reaching, he was an average TE at best

Spider
10-05-2007, 06:39 PM
Fire Shanny ?
well at least no one is calling for him to be executed ........

Hotrod
10-05-2007, 06:50 PM
Fire Shanny ?
well at least no one is calling for him to be executed ........

Told you you missed a good week. We've fired everyone from Bowlen to the kid that gets the tee after kickoffs. I mean were starting over from scratch :giggle:

Spider
10-05-2007, 06:57 PM
Told you you missed a good week. We've fired everyone from Bowlen to the kid that gets the tee after kickoffs. I mean were starting over from scratch :giggle:

LOL that kid that gets the tee after kick off needs to be fired ......

Arkansas Bronco
10-05-2007, 07:09 PM
All you haters better be glad I aint Pat or I would try to offer Mike a life time contract.

Cito Pelon
10-05-2007, 07:10 PM
Myself, I've detested Shanahan since he took the Raider HC job - THE RAIDER HC JOB!!!!! What a prick. Can't stand him, myself. Hate to see his face, would like to kick it in for him.

But to be objective, let's look at the O scoring stats for the AFC in the regular season:

1999: 11 Denver Broncos 16 19.6 314 314 19.6 13 16 1 0 1 1 0 0 29 29 2 1
2000 1 Denver Broncos 16 30.3 485 485 30.3 21 28 0 1 5 2 0 1 53 26 1 2
2001 6 Denver Broncos 16 21.2 340 340 21.2 7 26 1 0 1 0 0 0 31 31 0 3
2002 6 Denver Broncos 16 21.2 340 340 21.2 7 26 1 0 1 0 0 0 31 31 0 3
2003 5 Denver Broncos 16 23.8 381 381 23.8 20 19 2 0 1 0 0 0 41 28 1 1
2004 6 Denver Broncos 16 23.8 381 381 23.8 13 27 0 0 2 0 0 0 42 29 0 0
2005 5 Denver Broncos 16 24.7 395 395 24.7 25 18 0 0 3 0 0 0 43 24 1 1
2006 10 Denver Broncos 16 19.9 319 319 19.9 12 20 0 0 2 0 0 0 34 27 0 0

Looks like this dude Shanahan has some credentials. Top ten in scoring fairly consistently. One playoff win, that's a huge negative, just plain huge negative.

I won't say get rid of him. We'll have to see how it plays out. Dude has some credentials.

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 07:21 PM
The thread starter has a personal beef with shanahan (that's obvious) he even takes the time to post all the personel that has come and gone. Based on citos post is there any other coach that is or was available i that time frame with shannys credentials?


ps: I hated his guts when he went to the raiders too..

Sassy
10-05-2007, 07:22 PM
Who's Shannahan? ;D

Odysseus
10-05-2007, 07:26 PM
I swear to God over 75% of the members here have ADD.

So many morons and so little time.

Arkansas Bronco
10-05-2007, 07:48 PM
Dont sweat it your not outnumbered the rational ones are just avoiding this retarded thread.

So true. It took me along time to post here I just got tired of seeing it at the top of the page so much I had to chime. Seriously were you here when we lost 3 SB in 4 years? I was so happy I cried when Shany won the first one. You people arnt fans your critics fighting the wrong way.

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 07:55 PM
So true. It took me along time to post here I just got tired of seeing it at the top of the page so much I had to chime. Seriously were you here when we lost 3 SB in 4 years? I was so happy I cried when Shany won the first one. You people arnt fans your critics fighting the wrong way.


Born and raised in Denver i remember all the SB losses in the 90s when we got the first one vs greenbay m and my oldman ran outside to woop it up and amazingly the entire neighborhood joined us it was dark but it sounded like a mini milehigh throughout our neighborhood (i will never forget that) it was sooooo cool.

enjolras
10-05-2007, 08:02 PM
I just can't believe how content (if not enthusiastic!) so many members of this board appear to be with the team as it is. This team has been mediocre for years now...

I'm afraid of becoming just like the Fader fans, living on past glory. I'm not saying we have to fire Shannahan, but if not that then what are we going to do to make this team competitive again?

Cito Pelon
10-05-2007, 08:17 PM
The thread starter has a personal beef with shanahan (that's obvious) he even takes the time to post all the personel that has come and gone. Based on citos post is there any other coach that is or was available i that time frame with shannys credentials?


ps: I hated his guts when he went to the raiders too..

Dude has some bona fides on O scoring. Gonna have to wait it out. Looks to me like the O will begin scoring galore this season. But It's a three phase game. You just can't win in the playoffs unless you have all three phases dominating, or two out of the three and get lucky.

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 08:21 PM
I just can't believe how content (if not enthusiastic!) so many members of this board appear to be with the team as it is. This team has been mediocre for years now...

I'm afraid of becoming just like the Fader fans, living on past glory. I'm not saying we have to fire Shannahan, but if not that then what are we going to do to make this team competitive again?



Todays bronco fan has no clue what a truely bad season is re: pre 1977 and what waiting means year after year and finally having it show up in 77. But the road wasn't even close to being paved to a SB win sure it was close but not close enough for many years and many players come and gone. If you ask me (since i was there) this club is nowhere close to what the raider fan has become but i will say some bronco fans really don't understand what it really takes to go the distance (they are spoiled). It involves alot of heartache and dissapointments because it really is hard to capture (lighting in a bottle) but i will tell you it is worth the wait.

enjolras
10-05-2007, 08:23 PM
I'm pulling this down from earlier, because it just pisses me off.

Now, I see everyone expect superbowls to com every year... it's insane in todays league to even field a competitive team year in and year out. Peyton Manning has won one superbowl and everyone forgets about how inept him and dungy were in the playoffs for YEARS....

Funny, how everyone loves dungy's "nice guy" approach only a year after his kicker said he was too soft.

I don't... Dungy will be a HUGELY average coach as soon as Manning retires. It's more an indication of how incredible Peyton is, not of how incredible Dungy is.

the point....This is the NFL. Championships are earned not bought, and you can't just cheat your way in( unless your the new england pastericks).. to suggest firing one of the best coaches in the league, maybe top 15 of all time becuase he hasn't won a superbowl only shows how stupid and spoiled most of you are.

Given the right talent he's a great coach, but truly great coaches can replicate success. Parcells went to multiple superbowls with multiple teams. Shannahan took a talent laden team to two superbowls with probably the best quarterback to ever play the game.

He's shown NO ability to build a team since then. He has consistently filled his teams with weak player who get physically hammered by physical (and much more successful) teams.

I hold this team to truly high standards. If you want great results, look at the Patriots. Like it or not they have been incredible for nearly as long as the Broncos have been mediocre. Feel free to be happy with that.. I'm not.

This debate has gone on too long and it's time to end it. The only people that debate this are bandwagon pussies or spoiled rotten b****es. ANyone who knows anything about football knows how good we have it and accept the reality of the situation.

Here's where I get pissed. Who the hell are you to question me as a fan? Is it because I like to root for teams that actually win?

Just in the last couple of years this team has:

1. Been given a gift of an AFC championship game at home.. and managing to not even make it a game for a half.
2. Had a late season collapse which saw them piss away a playoff berth (giving it away to the Chefs for that matter) on the last game of the season. At home. To a very very average team.
3. Beat two average teams in very fortunate fashion, then proceeding to be absolutely manhandled, stepped on, and generally embarrassed by two conference foes.

Since Elway left, this team hasn't been something to fear. How many AFC west titles has this team won? Hell the Raiders have managed to make a superbowl in that span.

If your happy with that.. well good for you. I'm not.

I am ashamed to be aquainted with some of you.

I could care less. Being a fan isn't about accepting whatever they run out there..it's about wanting the best from your team. I'd be happier if these teams simply lived up to their abilities. We haven't even gotten that. Broncos teams of the last few years have shown a remarkable ability to underachieve (actually getting worse as seasons wear on). That's not a sign of a solid coach, it's a sign of very serious problems that to me, as a fan, is completely unacceptable.

I have no problem with keeping Shannahan around, but dammit something has to change. I'd rather be rid of him if it means that we can find a coach dedicated to playing some physical football. If Shanny can adjust his philosophy to be competitive again... then I'll be thrilled. Just show me some sign that this team isn't going to be mediocre year after year.

Spider
10-05-2007, 08:24 PM
Should have kept Ralston ...... freaking Red Miller sucked

ro_50
10-05-2007, 08:28 PM
Can Denver get Wade Phillips back? Sorry, just wanted to ligthen the mood on this thread!!!

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 08:34 PM
Iam just not sure the perfect coach exists i really think (the players) combined with a good coach do well and having that combo each and every year is pretty hard IMO and expecting it year after year is even harder..

Cito Pelon
10-05-2007, 08:37 PM
I just can't believe how content (if not enthusiastic!) so many members of this board appear to be with the team as it is. This team has been mediocre for years now...

I'm afraid of becoming just like the Fader fans, living on past glory. I'm not saying we have to fire Shannahan, but if not that then what are we going to do to make this team competitive again?

To make the jump from mediocre to Championship the team will need a solid three phase game. The Raiders made a damn good run at the League Title for a few years what was it 2000-2002? They had the tools, hell, wasn't Darrien Gordon their CB and punt returner? Point is, they had the tools. Denver has not had the tools to make a Title run. So we'll see what happens when they have the tools.

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 08:40 PM
Iam not sure what the expectations were this year but this team is under construction with a touch of drama.

Cito Pelon
10-05-2007, 08:44 PM
Should have kept Ralston ...... freaking Red Miller sucked

So when your truck is stuttering up a steep grade, do you yell, "Ralston me baby, don't Miller on me, baby!"

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 08:44 PM
So when your truck is stuttering up a steep grade, do you yell, "Ralston me baby, don't Miller on me, baby!"


LMAO!

maven
10-05-2007, 08:47 PM
Wow! This thread still has legs.

And to answer the OP.

Hell no!

Spider
10-05-2007, 08:58 PM
So when your truck is stuttering up a steep grade, do you yell, "Ralston me baby, don't Miller on me, baby!"

LOL My Truck doesnt stutter up any hill ..... I climbed Parsleys with Grossing 79,860 @ 52 MPH ........ I got a large car

Cito Pelon
10-05-2007, 09:06 PM
LOL My Truck doesnt stutter up any hill ..... I climbed Parsleys with Grossing 79,860 @ 52 MPH ........ I got a large car

So that was you racing me when I tried to pass. Beat up blue truck, scarred fenders, yeah. :approve:

ro_50
10-05-2007, 09:08 PM
To make the jump from mediocre to Championship the team will need a solid three phase game. The Raiders made a damn good run at the League Title for a few years what was it 2000-2002? They had the tools, hell, wasn't Darrien Gordon their CB and punt returner? Point is, they had the tools. Denver has not had the tools to make a Title run. So we'll see what happens when they have the tools.

I thought Darrien Gordon played well when he was here in Denver. What a punt returner he was during his prime.

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 09:12 PM
The OP has put the microscope on mike and the players he has brought in i would really like to see that list compared to other elite coaches in proper time frame.

Punisher
10-05-2007, 09:48 PM
This thread should be in the Butt

yup :wiggle:

OABB
10-05-2007, 09:58 PM
I'm pulling this down from earlier, because it just pisses me off.



I don't... Dungy will be a HUGELY average coach as soon as Manning retires. It's more an indication of how incredible Peyton is, not of how incredible Dungy is.



Given the right talent he's a great coach, but truly great coaches can replicate success. Parcells went to multiple superbowls with multiple teams. Shannahan took a talent laden team to two superbowls with probably the best quarterback to ever play the game.

He's shown NO ability to build a team since then. He has consistently filled his teams with weak player who get physically hammered by physical (and much more successful) teams.

I hold this team to truly high standards. If you want great results, look at the Patriots. Like it or not they have been incredible for nearly as long as the Broncos have been mediocre. Feel free to be happy with that.. I'm not.



Here's where I get pissed. Who the hell are you to question me as a fan? Is it because I like to root for teams that actually win?

Just in the last couple of years this team has:

1. Been given a gift of an AFC championship game at home.. and managing to not even make it a game for a half.
2. Had a late season collapse which saw them piss away a playoff berth (giving it away to the Chefs for that matter) on the last game of the season. At home. To a very very average team.
3. Beat two average teams in very fortunate fashion, then proceeding to be absolutely manhandled, stepped on, and generally embarrassed by two conference foes.

Since Elway left, this team hasn't been something to fear. How many AFC west titles has this team won? Hell the Raiders have managed to make a superbowl in that span.

If your happy with that.. well good for you. I'm not.



I could care less. Being a fan isn't about accepting whatever they run out there..it's about wanting the best from your team. I'd be happier if these teams simply lived up to their abilities. We haven't even gotten that. Broncos teams of the last few years have shown a remarkable ability to underachieve (actually getting worse as seasons wear on). That's not a sign of a solid coach, it's a sign of very serious problems that to me, as a fan, is completely unacceptable.

I have no problem with keeping Shannahan around, but dammit something has to change. I'd rather be rid of him if it means that we can find a coach dedicated to playing some physical football. If Shanny can adjust his philosophy to be competitive again... then I'll be thrilled. Just show me some sign that this team isn't going to be mediocre year after year.




1.Parcells couldn't get dallas to the superbowl...In fact the last time he won a superbowl was almost ten years before shanahan...

so why use him as your example of a great coach when according to you, compared to shanny he is just average. since 1991 he lost an afccg and a superbowl.

2.Don't get me started on the new england pasteriks... yes they have a great team and have been competitive, but since their last superbowl win according to you, they are average as well. they lost to our"Average" team in the playoffs and lost last years afccg. So again, why aren't you saying that bellicheck is average or that something needs to change there?

3.I am not saying that I am happy with our team, and have been heartbroken these last few years, so don't confuse me for some rah rah type.

4.and yes, the fact that you like to root for a team that wins is the VERY DEFINITION of a fair weather fan.


5.the difference between me and you is that I am realistic in my expectations. I don't get too high or too low. I want my team to win, but win or lose I will still be there. i WILL NEVER throw anyone under the bus. I have never ragged on plummer, greise, shanny or anyone else in my entire life.

I get mad, yes, but I am not a fair weather fan, and this is what i am accusing you of. You are a whiney, bitchy fan and yes, you shouldn't care what i think of you, but you should care about the lack of honor that you display.

I only call out fair weather fans. I have yet to get to 100 posts because i feel that if you don't have something to say don't say it. But these past few weeks have made me so angry at the very ****iness of some of you, that I can't sit back any longer

frerottenextelway
10-05-2007, 10:10 PM
How many teams since the cap have won the SB w/out an elite QB? We went 10 years w/out one, which is a big reason why we haven't won a SB. That many regular season wins with what we've had is impressive. Shanahan the GM had a bunch of awful years until recently (and they've been superb recently). Shanahan the X and O guy is still as good as it gets.

Spider
10-05-2007, 10:12 PM
So that was you racing me when I tried to pass. Beat up blue truck, scarred fenders, yeah. :approve:

:wiggle:

NaptownChief
10-05-2007, 10:17 PM
Shanahan the X and O guy is still as good as it gets.


You think? I know Peyton Manning loves having him in the league as it is getting him to all the records much quicker.

Cito Pelon
10-05-2007, 10:19 PM
yup :wiggle:

You must be scared of competition. Seems to me that this is a discussion that goes on every day.

Bronx33
10-05-2007, 10:26 PM
You think? I know Peyton Manning loves having him in the league as it is getting him to all the records much quicker.


Gunther is a speed bump to peyton who is the DC last time i checked.

Cito Pelon
10-05-2007, 10:27 PM
How many teams since the cap have won the SB w/out an elite QB? We went 10 years w/out one, which is a big reason why we haven't won a SB. That many regular season wins with what we've had is impressive. Shanahan the GM had a bunch of awful years until recently (and they've been superb recently). Shanahan the X and O guy is still as good as it gets.

Can't argue with that.