Bates Must Go!

[Rohirrim]

I've seen enough. This guy has great PR, but I have yet to see him put anything on the field. I'm beginning to think he's all Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas. What kind of DC would put up with this kind of failure of execution week after week? Every player is getting knocked off the ball. This D plays w/o cohesion, heart, focus or skill. They play as if they haven't seen one foot of game film on this team. They are out of position far more often than they are in position. The LBs spend so much time swimming around in the wash that they are useless. And we haven't even gotten to the fundamentals! This team can't tackle! Week after week, after week after week, they just can't tackle. That's high school ****! Bates is worthless. The Broncos could find somebody better than this on the friggin wire.

**** Ian Gold! This starts at the top.

[Popps]

It's a disgrace, to be sure.

I still think it's a talent thing more than a scheme thing. But, it's an embarrassing time to be a Broncos fan, for sure.

[Popps]

I honestly can't imagine there's a worse defense in the league.

Name one, and I'll refute it.. I guarantee you.

[-Slap-]

Next to Thomas Howard, Gerard Warren was probably the best player on the Raiders defense today.

[go_broncos]

This is the worst Run Defense i have seen.

I will fault Shanny on this..he knows our weakness and we never improved our D-line.

[Wes Mantooth]

I think there is talent on the D-squad, they just are misguided. The bite these guys take on the cutback is ridiculous.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

This is the worst Run Defense i have seen.

I will fault Shanny on this..he knows our weakness and we never improved our D-line.

Ummm, that wasnt due to lack of trying

[Kaylore]

Four games in without the right pieces to play your scheme is hardly time to make a final judgment.

[ro_50]

They quickly jettison Gerard Warren out because they thought he didn't fit the scheme, well after 4 weeks, who the f*ck fits this scheme? No one.

Bates may turn things around, but this D is soft, they are not in the right spots -- its awful.

[Orange_Beard]

Funny I was watching the Raiders and Dulfins game. The Dulfins can't stop the run either.
I thought that was why we got this guy.

[broncos love]

I heard the same crap about Coyer last year when the Colts beat the broncos in Denver. The Colts just got our number, don't matter who is the def . cordinator. Just relax were still in first place!!!!

[eddie mac]

I heard the same crap about Coyer last year when the Colts beat the broncos in Denver. The Colts just got our number, don't matter who is the def . cordinator. Just relax were still in first place!!!!


So you didn't watch the other 3 games then.LOL

[Rohirrim]

Even if you don't have the players to fit your scheme is no excuse for a complete failure of fundamentals at every level. I watched that fourth quarter specifically focussed on the center of the D line. Run after run after run after run barrelled right up that hole like it was friggin I25. There was zero obstacle in the center of that line for play after play. The DTs were getting blown out of the hole on every ****ing play. Bates has had plenty of time. This week was a more embarassing effort than last week, and that's a failure of leadership.

[RMT]

I heard the same crap about Coyer last year when the Colts beat the broncos in Denver. The Colts just got our number, don't matter who is the def . cordinator. Just relax were still in first place!!!!

after today there will be a 4 way tie for 1st place in the AFC West.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

3 way tie

[ro_50]

The AFC West stinks and its the worst division in football right now.

[Frosty78]

Nice to see that Gerard Warren got 4 tackles and a sack today for the Raiders. Man we sure couldn't use that. Glad we jettisoned Al Wilson like trash, put D.J. Williams in a position he never played, made John Engelberger a starting DE, Amon Gordon a starting DT, and continue to keep Ian Gold on the field. The roster moves on this team are a joke.

[Drek]

Funny I was watching the Raiders and Dulfins game. The Dulfins can't stop the run either.
I thought that was why we got this guy.

Um, no. We got Bates to fix the pass rush. So far he's done a pretty good job in that category, as he's got Dumervil and Moss looking like real gamers, and thats without the interior help they need to really shine.

The problem isn't Bates. Its some variety of the DTs, Gold, and Williams from week to week. The DTs can't fill their holes to save their lives and DJ is the schizophrenic linebacker. Reading and reacting like he should well ahead on one play, then so far off on the next that its pathetic.

Today Gold was the real dilemma though. Our linebackers need to be able to cover TEs. But no matter who Gold was lined up on he was giving up a step or two, completion after completion. Same on running plays, he was never in position and gave up a big chunk of Addai's yardage.

There's no problem with Bates. There's a problem with our interior. Its rotten. But thankfully in the NFL a rotten core doesn't mean you have to throw it all away. The real value is on the edges in this league, corners and DEs, guys who've got to play on the island. We got those positions covered. Now we just need to rip out the innards of this D and replace it with guys who're going to show up and do their jobs.

This team misses Al Wilson like a heroin junky in rehab misses the needle. If he had a healthy Al Wilson this team would be looking at ending the week 4-0 and would be considered one of the league's dominant few. Without him though there's no buck stops here run stuffer.

[bpc]

Well, i'm not going to chalk this up on Bates yet. He's only had four games.

What disappoints the hell out of me is that we have all this "talent". Game in and game out against the league's better players, we don't make the plays.

You could go on down the line. Champ, Bly, Elvis, Williams, Rice... none of them make any plays.

Champ although keeping a WR quiet during the Colts games, hasn't done anything. No INT's, no game changing plays. That is frustrating.

Our whole situation at DT at LB is embarrassing. DJ Williams, you flat out suck. The only time you will ever produce is in a secondary role when you aren't expected to be the focal player, the guy who steps up in the clutch.

Ian Gold, you can eat a d!ck and get off the roster. SOON.

At DT, we are lacking so much talent that we put Jarvis Moss in there on running downs!

We highlighted our weakest area on defense in the run department, and enforced it more by putting our 1st round draft pick DE there!

Honestly, the Colts own us. They always will as long as Peyton is there. Peyton makes plays in the clutch. WE do not, HAVE not, probably never will, as long as he is there.

IF the chiefs beat the Chargers, we better f*** them up at home next week. No EXCUSES!!!

[want2bAbronco2]

*i think im right*, but the Chiefs will be in 1st, then us, raiders, then chargers. "chiefs 2-2, 1div win, 1nfc/1afc loss. broncos 2-2, 1div win, 2afc loss, raiders 2-2 2afc wins, 1div loss, 1nfc loss. not that it really matters.

[Popps]

It just kills me to see Champ Bailey rotting away on this defense. He deserves to be a winner, and he's just surrounded with garbage, year after year. Same for Lynch. At least he didn't have to suffer through this crap in person today.

Bailey deserves better than this defense. Seriously. What a shame.

[bloodsunday]

Next to Thomas Howard, Gerard Warren was probably the best player on the Raiders defense today.

Man I was BBQ'd for pointing that out last week. Or the fact that Trevor Pryce had a Pro Bowl season last year for Baltimore.

[Rohirrim]

The addition of Moss to this team (and Rice), with Elvis entering his second year, was going to make the pass rush look better regardless of who came in at DC. If Coyer was back this year, the pass rush would be better. The loss of Al Wilson is huge. Getting rid of Warren was a mistake. Regardless of all of that, this team was not tackling worth a **** last week and they were worse this week. That has nothing to do with scheme, lack of personnel or anything else. That's a coach who sucks. These guys should be spending the week on tackling dummies. This is fundamental football. Tackle! Bates is a ****ing failure.

[Rohirrim]

Man I was BBQ'd for pointing that out last week. Or the fact that Trevor Pryce had a Pro Bowl season last year for Baltimore.

And let's not mention Reggie Hayward or Bertrand Berry.

[skpac1001]

Coyer wasn't the problem last year, Bates isn't this year. I really don't know what defensive mind could make chicken salad out of our DT/LB core, which from what I have heard is fairly important group for stopping the run. Considering how Bates is supposed to prefer playing basic, he must really not think much of the personel to be trying to use the defenses he has been playing lately. We need time and more talent, not a new DC.

[Rohirrim]

Playing basic??? It doesn't get much more basic than tackling.

[broncofan2438]

Yup, get his ass out of here........defense sucks

[maven]

It's hard to fail as a defensive coordinator when you have Jason Taylor/Zach Thomas back in the day.

[HEAV]

Did you really think that the Broncos were going to beat the Colts.

Using a modified 3-4 was a desperate attempt. Never seen that from Bates, meaning having the fat guys sit and using DE's as DT's.

There is something amiss with this franchise.

[Popps]

I can't imagine how Shanahan handles this kind of situation. Two years of off-seasons meant to prevent this EXACT event from happening again, and it actually gets WORSE.

We played Indy much closer last year.... and that's shameful.

But, I told you guys.... if we score 100, Indy will score 102. You're not going to out-offense these guys. You HAVE to be able to stop teams.

Yet again, we couldn't.

[RunSilentRunDeep]

Posted the following on the other piss-on-Bates thread. But doing it here makes me feel better.




God I would love to see what Coyer would have done with a healthy <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.orangemane.com/BB/ /><st1:City w:st=Warren</st1:City>, Dre Bly, Moss, Rice, <st1:place w:st="on">Adams</st1:place> and Crowder.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.orangemane.com/BB/<o:p></o:p>

What the hell has a Bates' team ever won (seriously, I'm asking)?
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I was at the game and the front seven eats sh!t with smiles on thier faces.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
No emotional at all. Also, has Bates given up on his own scheme. That gimmick D they started with was good for one series. Also, the d-linemen were (trying) to shoot gaps constantly instead of the stand'em BS they've been playing. <o:p></o:p>

[ScottXray]

Did you really think that the Broncos were going to beat the Colts.

Using a modified 3-4 was a desperate attempt. Never seen that from Bates, meaning having the fat guys sit and using DE's as DT's.

There is something amiss with this franchise.

What is wrong is the Head coach doesn't know how to evaluate defensive talent.

He is fantastic when he messes with the offense...But should keep his fingers out of the Defense and let the D-coordinator have his say...especially in personnel and draft decisions.


We have had 4 D-coordinators in the last 8 years...what does THAT say.

Schemes can't win without Personnel to fulfill them..

Shanny loved Ian Gold....gave him a big contract.

[ro_50]

It just kills me to see Champ Bailey rotting away on this defense. He deserves to be a winner, and he's just surrounded with garbage, year after year. Same for Lynch. At least he didn't have to suffer through this crap in person today.

Bailey deserves better than this defense. Seriously. What a shame.

I feel the same, we are rotting away his prime in this anemic defense. My question is, from all accounts, he's a team player, but when will he get fed up w/ this defense and say something?

[orinjkrush]

and lets not forget our special olympics team which even with the best ST coach money can buy, is still....well....special.

[Popps]

True, but Bates seemed to put his stamp on this D.

Yes, it's early and you can't write off guys like Thomas and Moss, not to mention Crowder.

But, Bates deserves a LITTLE blame for this... for sure. You can't be 4 games into the season looking like the worst D in the league and expect NO criticism.... particularly after looking horrific in the pre-season.

[fontaine]

The LBers and DTs playing like trash isnt' on Bates.

We fired Coyer and that fixed nothing just like firing Bates isn't going to fix anything. Like someone on this thread said, we need the right personnel and we don't have them at this stage. Dumervil/Moss are a good start, but we need more from Crowder, Adams, Marcus Thomas but it's probably too early for the rookies to make so much of a difference.

The worrying thing is that this team/FO/Coaches have shown zero ability in bringing in quality DTs/LBers?? Can anyone tell me any other team that routinely start practice squad DTs like Burton/Gordon/Fatafehi etc? Seriously, we go through DTs like they're disposable razor blades.

How the hell do you not notice Gold being a huge liability or DJ struggling to make the leap to Mike? Trading Warren (who's playing ok) and now Adams, Gordon were declared inactive?

Whoever's calling the shots on personnel here knows jacksh*t about DTs/LBers.

Coyer was our LBers coach. At least he got these guys to play with fundamentals like wrapping up and tackling. Now, the LBers are playing like sh*t and we don't have the assistant coach who got the best out of them.

What a **** up. But why should we be surprised? These are the same people that brought us Daryl Gardener, Leon Lett, Holland, Fatafehi, Ellis and year after year of the same recycled garbage at DT.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Four games in without the right pieces to play your scheme is hardly time to make a final judgment.Isn't it time for your "Chargers will kill us thread"?

[Popps]

I feel the same, we are rotting away his prime in this anemic defense. My question is, from all accounts, he's a team player, but when will he get fed up w/ this defense and say something?

If you watch Champ closely... he's flying all over the field, making plays, and then usually gets up shaking his head like, "where the **** is the guy who's supposed to be making this tackle."

Champ looks like the only guy out there who can handle his assignments, and those of OTHER players, as well.

Fans better appreciate this guy while he's here. What a phenomenal, gutsy player. Guys like Gold should be ashamed to be on the field with him.

[chickennob2]

Guys. How can you blame Bates for this? His system involves two mammoth DTs. Today our two starters all season long were inactive, forcing us to play a 260-lb DE and a 290-lb tweener at DT. With the modified 3-4 we were playing, Bates did the best he could with what he had available to him. This was a solid coaching effort today. But the injuries/inactives killed us. Not to mention the Colts had superior talent. We had to play a perfect game to win today, and we didn't. Let's move on.

And dont blame Bates for the Warren trade. He was a lazy malcontent. They did what they had to do. And by the way, that "they" has nothing to do with Bates.

Someone berated Bates for the defense's poor tackling, calling it "high school stuff." Well you're exactly right. Tackling is something these players should have learned a long way back. It's not on the DC at the pro level to teach these guys how to tackle. If they don't put out hte effort, there's nothing he can do.

[fontaine]

Fans better appreciate this guy while he's here. What a phenomenal, gutsy player. Guys like Gold should be ashamed to be on the field with him.

Gold didn't give a crap when he gave the finger to this organization when he was a FA and didn't allow them to match any contract he received in the open market and he doesn't give a crap now.

Didn't Sundquist guarantee the 8 million Gold negotiated a couple years back? Yeah, Gold sure is earning that money.

What's the cap hit if we cut this guy?

Honestly, what I think is that this guy just saw how Wilson had to retire because of neck problems and Gold is just playing it safe to keep cashing in on that salary.

[broncos love]

I feel the same, we are rotting away his prime in this anemic defense. My question is, from all accounts, he's a team player, but when will he get fed up w/ this defense and say something?

I love Champ Bailey in all, but lets no go overboard with this defense rotting his legacy as one the best CB's ever. Sometimes champ trys to do too much for the defense, like the play against D. Clark ; he was trying to play two guys on the play. nevermind im wrong

[55CrushEm]

Can someone tell me why we started our 2 rookie DE's (Moss and Crowder) at DT ?!?!

WTF is up with that?

[Cito Pelon]

The D didn't look great, but it's a three phase game. It's real hard to win in the NFL without good ST's and still not scoring more than 20 points in regulation time.

[RunSilentRunDeep]

Can someone tell me why we started our 2 rookie DE's (Moss and Crowder) at DT ?!?!

WTF is up with that?

Panic, doubt, desperation, etc, etc.

[yerner]

I say toss Shanny too. Wait, its only been ten years right? Go ahead pile on. I'm saying it for the first time in my life. I'm over shanny and his 9 win dry hump seasons.

[Turf Shaman]

Bates deserves some flack, no doubt. We traded Warren who while he may not be worth the contract is clearly better than any DT we currently got because he didn't fit Bates system. Problem is there is a pretty large gap between the system and the players on this team. I can't imagine that having one more DT taking up minutes who actually belongs on an NFL roster wouldn't help a bit. Not that this D needs only a bit of help. But the run D is simply disgraceful, I'm not sure how to dance around that.

[55CrushEm]

It's about time we at least put Webster in the middle.....DJ on weakside, and any of our other backup LB's on the strongside.

[DB_champ24]

I was and am still sick to my stomach watching that garbage on D..Running right down the middle on us like its nothing, and needing Bailey to come to the middle of the field on almost every run play because no one else can stop the RB is even worse..He is being wasted with this sorry run D..I am sooo dissapointed and disgusted right now

[defenseman]

The fact of the matter is, the way the D continues to play and continues to look WORSE against the run, the charger and ANYONE with a decent running back will beat the broncos. Period. I just do not see another win for at least two or three games, at least. And that's giving Bates and Shanahan the benefit of the doubt. Reality can bite you but good..dman

[55CrushEm]

So we actually deactivated our 2 starting DT's, Adams and Gordon, so that we could start Moss and Crowder on the interior......brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Why don't we just take EVERYONE out of there natural position next week?

Our D-line should be Champ, Lynch, Fergy, and Gold.....LB's could be Moss, Adams, and Gordon.....and the secondary could be Rice, Engleberger, DJ and Webster.

****ing sad.

[Hulamau]

Im not happy with hiring old fart white haired DCs anyway ... most of them cant really connect with a bunch of young black footballers on D and listening to Bates he sounds like an old fart ... A lot of these guys are running on their laurels from years ago while the rest of the league has moved on ... Id rather see some late 30s early 40s young stud with some fresh ideas and a lot of motivation to make his name and mark on the league kind of like the Steelers new HC .. Shanny knows offense but seems to fall in love with guys whose time has passed ( or never really came) in Rhodes, Coyer, perhaps now Bates... the results so far suck big apples and it is clear Bates cant even teach these bozos to tackle worth a damn!

Also the Defense seems to lack any kind of heart outside of Champ Lynch and Doom.. once the opposing ball carrier passes most of these guys they just watch the play and don't hustle at all down field to make a play indicating Bates hasn't been able to keep a fire lit under his guys arses either.

[-Slap-]

Gold didn't give a crap when he gave the finger to this organization when he was a FA and didn't allow them to match any contract he received in the open market and he doesn't give a crap now.

Didn't Sundquist guarantee the 8 million Gold negotiated a couple years back? Yeah, Gold sure is earning that money.

What's the cap hit if we cut this guy?

Honestly, what I think is that this guy just saw how Wilson had to retire because of neck problems and Gold is just playing it safe to keep cashing in on that salary.

Resigning that bum was the worst personnel decision since we brought in Dale Carter. He's nothing but a front-running big mouth and all he did was move a younger, cheaper player out of position.

This so-called premier cover linebacker who only has three goddamn interceptions in a eight year career. What a joke.

[ro_50]

The only two players I've seen this year play good are Elvis and Champ.

Most of you guys have said this, but what else can Champ do. He's covering for other players' missed assignments and HE'S PLAYING SPECIAL TEAMS for god's sake.

When you have your best player out there on special teams, a rarity in the NFL, you know you have issues on ST and when you throw a curve ball and start two rookies on the interior line after they played DE in college, you know you have ISSUES.

[Hulamau]

If you watch Champ closely... he's flying all over the field, making plays, and then usually gets up shaking his head like, "where the **** is the guy who's supposed to be making this tackle."

Champ looks like the only guy out there who can handle his assignments, and those of OTHER players, as well.

Fans better appreciate this guy while he's here. What a phenomenal, gutsy player. Guys like Gold should be ashamed to be on the field with him.

I see the same thing Popps it makes me mad as hell to see how little heart some of these pathetic excuses for bench warmers play when Champ is so elite and giving his all every play.

[Raider Bill]

What's the deal with pinching the DT's in and having the DE's in that wide 9 technique.?

Bate's alignments create a natural seam begging for the ISO play on the OLB

[DenverBrit]

Coyer wasn't the problem last year, Bates isn't this year. I really don't know what defensive mind could make chicken salad out of our DT/LB core, which from what I have heard is fairly important group for stopping the run. Considering how Bates is supposed to prefer playing basic, he must really not think much of the personel to be trying to use the defenses he has been playing lately. We need time and more talent, not a new DC.

Bingo!! The ends look like they will be fine, add some DTs who can occupy blockers instead of staring at them as they go by and the line will be fine. The LBs? That's another story, we desperately need a MLB to add leadership as well as tackles. DJ is out of his depth so far, he's trying to learn his own position and yet is expected to be the QB of the front seven. Bates has been handed a bunch of journeymen and asked to create a top notch defense. He needs to be able to bring in the players he needs.......and that won't happen until next season. In the meantime, buckle up.

[Blueflame]

When was the last time anyone saw Dallas Clark as the top receiver for Indy? Seriously, did anyone expect numbers like 1 catch for 8 yards for Marvin Harrison (yes I realize he went out due to injury, but still...) and 5 catches for 38 yards for Reggie Wayne? It's all about the matchups... and Champ and Dre did their jobs. Look who hurt us...it was Dallas Clark and Joseph Addai.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?season=2007&week=REG4&game_id=29253

[Requiem]

I watched Bates throw his scheme into play in Green Bay and they sucked right away, but proved to be a top defense by the end of the year. It took almost half the year before things even got right there.

Bates is playing on a defense with a bunch of new players, and in particular - he's lacking the adequate personnel to effectively run the defense. He doesn't have the big interior presence that is NEEDED to make this defense work.

So much relies on it, and we just don't have it. It's ****ing SAD - we had Moss playing like a rover and having our DE's line up inside because we only had three active tackles. I understand the athleticism in being able to follow the no huddle, but we have absolutely nobody worth a damn on the interior of the defensive line to stop the run.

That's why I have us taking Okam in Round One.

http://broncosdraft.wordpress.com/

Things will take time, I don't put all of this on Bates, but some responsibility goes there.

[maher_tyler]

Nice to see that Gerard Warren got 4 tackles and a sack today for the Raiders. Man we sure couldn't use that. Glad we jettisoned Al Wilson like trash, put D.J. Williams in a position he never played, made John Engelberger a starting DE, Amon Gordon a starting DT, and continue to keep Ian Gold on the field. The roster moves on this team are a joke.

Agreed...can't lose your heart and soul of your D and put a guy in whos never played the position...and play a 3rd string DT and DE and expect to have a dominating defense...were in a growing period..next year is the year we make a serious push for the SB.

[Popps]

I see the same thing Popps it makes me mad as hell to see how little heart some of these pathetic excuses for bench warmers play when Champ is so elite and giving his all every play.

Sort of feels like some of those Reeves years when you just wondered if they were ever going to put some talent around John.

Lynch is near the end. At least he's got a ring. Champ sure deserves one.

[TheChamp24]

Champ did get beat by Clark a couple times. Everybody on the D got beat at some point.
It was horrible watching.

[Canmore]

We gave up the grand sum of 193 yards to the best passer in the NFL. Sure that was a whopping 105 yards more than our average. We are starting a rookie QB. All is not lost. Our d needs to tackle better, no ****. Let's give it some time. We are only one quarter into the season. Let's hold of the dire predictions until mid way at least.

[Blueflame]

Champ did get beat by Clark a couple times. Everybody on the D got beat at some point.
It was horrible watching.

Hello... Clark wasn't Champ's assignment. I guarantee you he was supposed to be covering Harrison and/or Wayne, who btw combined for 6 completions; 46 yards.

[SoCalBronco]

Shanahan has given every defensive coordinator he has had at least 2 full seasons to try out their methods. Coach Bates deserves the same. He's trying to put his pieces in place and find the proper pieces as well. He should be afforded the proper oppurtunity that his predecessors have been afforded. It's not like he is sitting on his ass and doing nothing. The team has tried a variety of different strategies this year. Today we saw a different alignment than we usually see and it had a degree of success until the Colts finally adjusted. We also saw more conservative pass defenses than normal. Earlier in the season, we saw all out blitzes and fake blitzes (BUF). We've seen a few eight man fronts. The defensive staff is not just sitting there banging their heads on the wall every game, they are attempting to try a number of things to find a solution. If they cannot find a scheme that they are comfortable with, they should have the coming offseason to continue to try to a) study the tapes and see what new wrinkles/adjustments should be made in their scheme for next year and b) find more pieces that they need this offseason. At least two full seasons, IMO.

[TheChamp24]

Hello... Clark wasn't Champ's assignment. I guarantee you he was supposed to be covering Harrison and/or Wayne, who btw combined for 6 completions; 46 yards.

I'll give you the specific play. There was a 3rd and 3 in the 4th where Clark was lined up wide right, and Champ was opposite him. From the 47 yard line. It was a play action, and Champ bite and Peyton hit Clark for a 27 yard gain.
3rd and 3 at IND 47 (13:48) P.Manning pass deep right to D.Clark to DEN 26 for 27 yards (C.Bailey).

A couple times Clark was lined up wide right, and Champ lined up opposite. Clark also caught a quick slant on him for 7 yards, and of course Harrison's 8 yard catch.

Oh, and if we are going to trot out a 3-4 hybrid defense, we better have some fatty's and guess what, no fatty's. Thats a big reason why Indy ran on our defense at will. Lining up 3 DE's and a DT out there, with a small DE in Moss rushing up the middle? Hello 8+ yard run! Every time we did that, Peyton checked to a run to the opposite of where Moss was lining up, and it was an easy gain.

[Blueflame]

I'll give you the specific play. There was a 3rd and 3 in the 4th where Clark was lined up wide right, and Champ was opposite him. From the 47 yard line. It was a play action, and Champ bite and Peyton hit Clark for a 27 yard gain.


A couple times Clark was lined up wide right, and Champ lined up opposite. Clark also caught a quick slant on him for 7 yards, and of course Harrison's 8 yard catch.

Oh, and if we are going to trot out a 3-4 hybrid defense, we better have some fatty's and guess what, no fatty's. Thats a big reason why Indy ran on our defense at will. Lining up 3 DE's and a DT out there, with a small DE in Moss rushing up the middle? Hello 8+ yard run! Every time we did that, Peyton checked to a run to the opposite of where Moss was lining up, and it was an easy gain.

You didn't answer the question posed above... when was the last time that Indy's top receiver (statistically) was a TE? Or re-phrased, when was the last time Indy's WRs were virtually shut down? ???

[TheChamp24]

You didn't answer the question posed above... when was the last time that Indy's top receiver (statistically) was a TE? Or re-phrased, when was the last time Indy's WRs were virtually shut down? ???

Well, never. But all I was saying, is everybody on defense got beat today :(

And this makes it worse:

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/114112-gerard-warren.html

[Popps]

Hey, we get a 5th round pick for Warren. Wheeeeeee!!!

[Popps]

As painful as it is to watch this tape. I'm looking at a little from the first half.

Some people already bitched about this, but we ran some goofy-ass formations on D.

Three undersized linemen lined up to leave a huge gap in the center. Shockingly, Indy just ran right at that gap for, oh... I believe it was an average of 7 yards a carry?

Great strategy. It's akin to a tennis player just standing far on one side of the court.

[Blueflame]

Well, never. But all I was saying, is everybody on defense got beat today :(

And this makes it worse:

http://www.raiderfans.net/forum/oakland-raiders-forum-message-board/114112-gerard-warren.html

As Popps noted, there's an upside for us if Warren does perform well for the Fade. But Champ played a good game... both on defense and on special teams. I swear at times it looked like he was the only Bronco out there who could "finish" a tackle... seeing Colts players "bounce out of" or "break" 3 or 4 tackles, gaining 5-15 more yards than they should have was frustrating. The ST coach should focus almost solely on wrapping up/tackling this week.

[Canmore]

So we actually deactivated our 2 starting DT's, Adams and Gordon, so that we could start Moss and Crowder on the interior......brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Why don't we just take EVERYONE out of there natural position next week?

Our D-line should be Champ, Lynch, Fergy, and Gold.....LB's could be Moss, Adams, and Gordon.....and the secondary could be Rice, Engleberger, DJ and Webster.

****ing sad.

Maybe you have hit the problem on the head. Start Champ and Lynch on the d-line, at least they can tackle.

[Broncos4Life]

So we actually deactivated our 2 starting DT's, Adams and Gordon, so that we could start Moss and Crowder on the interior......brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Why don't we just take EVERYONE out of there natural position next week?

Our D-line should be Champ, Lynch, Fergy, and Gold.....LB's could be Moss, Adams, and Gordon.....and the secondary could be Rice, Engleberger, DJ and Webster.

****ing sad.

This post had me laughing pretty hard. Pretty funny ****. I guess it wouldnt be out of the question though. Maybe we could throw off the opposing offenses. Put four CB at D line, three safetys at LB and four LB in the secondary. Cause the secondary seems to tackle better then anyone right now. :thumbsup:

[Hoosier Bronco]

You didn't answer the question posed above... when was the last time that Indy's top receiver (statistically) was a TE? Or re-phrased, when was the last time Indy's WRs were virtually shut down? ???

Why would you pass the ball, when we laid down and gave them the run? There was a time when Indy would have forced the pass (look at when they lost to the Pats in the early 00's), but now they will take what is given to them.

We need to work on what we do defensively, whatever that is......not run a gimmick defense.

We have two great corners???? Stop the run and make them throw at our CB's. Play to our strengths, not our weaknesses.

[WolfpackGuy]

They made that Keith guy look like Eric Dickerson. That big run on 1st and 20 pretty much summed up the Broncos defense Sunday: $hitty!

[HorseHead]

I know this is against the law to say....but even Champ got scorched a bit yesterday...he bit on a fake by Dallas Clark... the whole D has work to do...including Pope Bailey...

[Rock Chalk]

Four games in without the right pieces to play your scheme is hardly time to make a final judgment.

Umm, that might be true if we saw some signs of improvement. We are getting WORSE.

[TheReverend]

What's the deal with pinching the DT's in and having the DE's in that wide 9 technique.?

Bate's alignments create a natural seam begging for the ISO play on the OLB

By nature, yeah.

The 9 wide is to help keep contain on the running play and for an extra step rushing the passer.

The OLB is supposed to take on outside blockers and engage their outside shoulder to, once again, keep contain. This funnels everything to the Mike who is supposed to fill the gap and drop the ballcarrier (gaudy #'s reference Zach Thomas and even Nick Barnett's magical resurrection).

Right now, it's just not the case.

[TailgateNut]

When was the last time anyone saw Dallas Clark as the top receiver for Indy? Seriously, did anyone expect numbers like 1 catch for 8 yards for Marvin Harrison (yes I realize he went out due to injury, but still...) and 5 catches for 38 yards for Reggie Wayne? It's all about the matchups... and Champ and Dre did their jobs. Look who hurt us...it was Dallas Clark and Joseph Addai.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?season=2007&week=REG4&game_id=29253



Ya gotta love those RB avgs. too. Makes our D-line look like a sieve!

[Houshyamama]

Patience Grasshoppa... patience.

[Mediator12]

I've seen enough. This guy has great PR, but I have yet to see him put anything on the field. I'm beginning to think he's all Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas. What kind of DC would put up with this kind of failure of execution week after week? Every player is getting knocked off the ball. This D plays w/o cohesion, heart, focus or skill. They play as if they haven't seen one foot of game film on this team. They are out of position far more often than they are in position. The LBs spend so much time swimming around in the wash that they are useless. And we haven't even gotten to the fundamentals! This team can't tackle! Week after week, after week after week, they just can't tackle. That's high school ****! Bates is worthless. The Broncos could find somebody better than this on the friggin wire.

**** Ian Gold! This starts at the top.

No one can deny the lack of production or execution out of this system right now, but for goodness sake relax ;D

The problem is that the defense has not bought into the philosophy yet and need confidence after getting their asses kicked so thoroughly. Mentally this has been one of the softest defenses the last five years I have ever seen. Whenever they need to step up, they fold with a brief exception last year to begin the season. The mentality of this defense is a poor one.

That is the main reason they have been so porous when needed the most. they play not to fail, rather than to succeed. No matter what anyone says, motivation whether intrinisic or external is the responsibility of the player. No coach can make players play. They can help those that want to get better, but if the players are not motivated, confident, and willing it's worthless.

Right now, the front seven of this defense is the most mentally weak group in the NFL. They play defeated and uninspired. At least, AL Wilson never allowed that crap until the middle of last year when he folded physically. This is the biggest reason they have never been an elite group. Their weakest links were always exploited by other teams. The poor players up front eliminate their playmakers in the secondary.

Give Bates time to weed out the weak links. He deserves that. It is completely different on game day, and he has to see who plays with their heart and soul. Scheme can only do so much, the players have to execute it. This scheme heavily relies on players who can beat their guys one on one consistently. Guess what, none of them are doing that starting with the DT's, then the DE's, and then the whole LB core. The lack of a single playmaker up front, Dumervil is the only bright spot but he is not ready to be crowned just yet, is killing this team and will continue to do so until someone steps up every down.

The buy a mentally weak, physically talented DL approach has failed miserably. Let's see if the guys they got in the draft can step it up. If not, well they better draft more next year.

[Blueflame]

Why would you pass the ball, when we laid down and gave them the run? There was a time when Indy would have forced the pass (look at when they lost to the Pats in the early 00's), but now they will take what is given to them.

We need to work on what we do defensively, whatever that is......not run a gimmick defense.

We have two great corners???? Stop the run and make them throw at our CB's. Play to our strengths, not our weaknesses.


The point is, Indy was passing,too... 27 attempts by Manning, but only six of those passes were completed to their superstar WR duo, for less than 50 yards. This tells me our CBs were doing their jobs. Unless you think Dallas Clark was Manning's first option...

[Blueflame]

Ya gotta love those RB avgs. too. Makes our D-line look like a sieve!

Our front seven do resemble a sieve. But then, so did Indy's... our RB avgs. were pretty impressive yesterday as well... particularly Young's 10 ypc.

The run defense needs work... a lot of work. And we need to tackle better, especially on special teams. When we're allowing the other team's returner 20+ yard returns, while our own team usually starts inside our 20, the other team has a huge advantage. This has to be addressed, imo.

[Rohirrim]

What's Bill Parcells up to these days?

[Rock Chalk]

The point is, Indy was passing,too... 27 attempts by Manning, but only six of those passes were completed to their superstar WR duo, for less than 50 yards. This tells me our CBs were doing their jobs. Unless you think Dallas Clark was Manning's first option...

I think it was clear that Clark was the focus of the passing gameplan. And to be fair to the dynamic Duo, Harrison was out of the game early.

Their gameplan seemed to be aimed at exploiting our weaknesses which were well known by this game. Pass to the tertiary receivers, run up the gut. Thats exactly what they did.

[Peoples Champ]

I think Bates should go. I don't have a problem with his current defensive scheme, but when its not working, you've got to change it, you can't be stubborn, it wouldn't hurt to try something else against them, i wish he would have brought everyone up on the line and blitz like they will do sometimes, the worst that could have happened would have been a 70 yard bomb, but at least that would be quick and it would be better than a 70 yard 15 play drive that chews up 8 minutes, just give it a shot, im not a professional coach and i understand they are good thats what they get paid to do, but if somethings not working, try something new, the steelers blitz the heck out of the colts two years ago in the playoffs, and they held them to 17 points at the RCA dome

[Peoples Champ]

bates must go, i was wondering when we were going to change it up, i might not be a professional coach, but its common sense when somethings not working, change it up, instead of being stubborn, the worst that could happen is we get burned again, either way at least we tried, i was hoping we would do that thing were we put everyone on the line to blitz and isolate the corners, sometimes we do bring everone and sometimes they drop back, i know that can expose the big play, but i will trust champ to at least make the tackle if he does get burned, even if he does get burned a 70 yard one play score would be better then a 70 yard 15 play drive that takes up 8 minutes, at least we would have tried it and know it wont work in the future, thats how the steelers beat the colts two years ago in indy, they just kept bringing it, they might have got burned on a couple plays but they one the game and held the colts to 17 points at the RCA Dome

[Mediator12]

bates must go, i was wondering when we were going to change it up, i might not be a professional coach, but its common sense when somethings not working, change it up, instead of being stubborn, the worst that could happen is we get burned again, either way at least we tried, i was hoping we would do that thing were we put everyone on the line to blitz and isolate the corners, sometimes we do bring everone and sometimes they drop back, i know that can expose the big play, but i will trust champ to at least make the tackle if he does get burned, even if he does get burned a 70 yard one play score would be better then a 70 yard 15 play drive that takes up 8 minutes, at least we would have tried it and know it wont work in the future, thats how the steelers beat the colts two years ago in indy, they just kept bringing it, they might have got burned on a couple plays but they one the game and held the colts to 17 points at the RCA Dome

If you did not think they changed things up yesterday, then enough said.

[Blueflame]

I think it was clear that Clark was the focus of the passing gameplan. And to be fair to the dynamic Duo, Harrison was out of the game early.

Their gameplan seemed to be aimed at exploiting our weaknesses which were well known by this game. Pass to the tertiary receivers, run up the gut. Thats exactly what they did.

And if we'd moved Champ to covering Clark instead, then they would have just thrown to their WRs.... and I already acknowledged that Harrison was injured early on. ;)

This loss was different than our usual losses to Indy, though...in that it was different weapons employed against us. But of course, Dungy did his homework and knew which weaknesses to exploit... that's what he's paid the big bucks to do.

[Hoosier Bronco]

The point is, Indy was passing,too... 27 attempts by Manning, but only six of those passes were completed to their superstar WR duo, for less than 50 yards. This tells me our CBs were doing their jobs. Unless you think Dallas Clark was Manning's first option...

Couldn't we have played our usual defense and worked on getting better stopping the run with Adams, Gordon, etc., in the middle instead of implementing a gimmicky defense designed to do who knows what. Our corners could have then been counted on to contain Wayne and Harrison as they did, while also stopping the run (in theory, as I know the Broncos have not stopped anyone this year against the run). Seems to me we showed how little faith we have in this with the scheme we employed. I would rather have Clark and Gonzalez torch us than Addai and Keith run over 270 lb Dline.

[Blueflame]

Couldn't we have played our usual defense and worked on getting better stopping the run with Adams, Gordon, etc., in the middle instead of implementing a gimmicky defense designed to do who knows what. Our corners could have then been counted on to contain Wayne and Harrison as they did, while also stopping the run (in theory, as I know the Broncos have not stopped anyone this year against the run). Seems to me we showed how little faith we have in this with the scheme we employed. I would rather have Clark and Gonzalez torch us than Addai and Keith run over 270 lb Dline.

To be certain, the D-line experiment still left us very vulnerable...hence, didn't work as hoped. Too bad we can't just clone Champ half a dozen times and implement the "all Bailey defense"... Ha! Seriously, it looked like he was trying to be everywhere and do everything... I think he was the only guy to make a special teams tackle.

[Taco John]

I can't believe people are calling for Bates' head before he's even gotten a chance to implement his scheme and work through the issues. This is nuts!

[24champ]

I can't believe people are calling for Bates' head before he's even gotten a chance to implement his scheme and work through the issues. This is nuts!

No kidding.

[Peoples Champ]

Couldn't we have played our usual defense and worked on getting better stopping the run with Adams, Gordon, etc., in the middle instead of implementing a gimmicky defense designed to do who knows what. Our corners could have then been counted on to contain Wayne and Harrison as they did, while also stopping the run (in theory, as I know the Broncos have not stopped anyone this year against the run). Seems to me we showed how little faith we have in this with the scheme we employed. I would rather have Clark and Gonzalez torch us than Addai and Keith run over 270 lb Dline.


I agree with you, stop the run first, and when someting isnt working change it up, maybe copy some teams that have beaten indy in the past two seasons, pittsburgh and new england (3 or 4 years ago) blitz constantly and get pressure on manning, they have been burned on it, but both will end up winning the game, also dallas and jacksonville did that to them too, just a thought

[Rohirrim]

Bates has had mini camps, training camp, four preseason games and four regular season games and not only is this teams' run defense not getting better, it's getting worse. There's is nothing more basic in football than run defense. It was there when the game was invented. It was there before the advent of the forward pass. It is the core element of football defense. Either Bates sucks, the Broncos are too stupid to understand what he's saying, or just flat out nobody is listening. If the guy has to change his scheme every week, putting DEs in the center of the line for instance, there is some kind of disconnect going on. Doesn't look to me like he has a scheme. If he did, why would he change it every week? Like Captain Willard said to Colonel Kurtz, "I don't see any method at all."

[jmz313]

Bates' system will need another offseason and 8 games to get formidable. Here's to hoping if it goes that far he stays for year 3.

I agree we need more of a motivating young DC that can look at what he;s got and work with it. I prefer Coaches that build from the ball out.

[ScottXray]

Bates has had mini camps, training camp, four preseason games and four regular season games and not only is this teams' run defense not getting better, it's getting worse. There's is nothing more basic in football than run defense. It was there when the game was invented. It was there before the advent of the forward pass. It is the core element of football defense. Either Bates sucks, the Broncos are too stupid to understand what he's saying, or just flat out nobody is listening. If the guy has to change his scheme every week, putting DEs in the center of the line for instance, there is some kind of disconnect going on. Doesn't look to me like he has a scheme. If he did, why would he change it every week? Like Captain Willard said to Colonel Kurtz, "I don't see any method at all."

I have to agree somewhat. Bates hasn't had time to implement his scheme and unless he gets two years it isn't totally fair to denounce him.

On the other hand, he ALSO is supposed to field a defense using the players he has. He was handed an outstanding secondary and given a draft of D-ends. We had seventeen D-linemen in camp. A lot of those same linemen played the run fairly well last year. We got rid of the only one who had any talent in the middle, ostensibly because he wasn't getting the scheme. HE didn't like Bates...and apparently Bates didn't like him. 4 games in and it seems NO ONE is getting the scheme.

So maybe Bates scheme doesn't fit our personnel...ADJUST the scheme to match the people we have.

He tried the modified 3-4 with all d-ends against Indy..after one quarter they figured it out and ran it down our throats. It was time to make more adjustments at the half..only the cupboard was bare, or this guy is NOT able to teach.

One quarter of the way through this season and we have no run defense.
We may as well try to get Jenkins from Carolina...he isn't happy there. Maybe we can get him for a second....Weré going to have to get somebody to clog the middle in the draft anyway...and that's no sure bet.
Maybe we can get a MLB thrown in if we give them a first.

For sure SOMETHING needs to change.

[Mediator12]

Bates has had mini camps, training camp, four preseason games and four regular season games and not only is this teams' run defense not getting better, it's getting worse. There's is nothing more basic in football than run defense. It was there when the game was invented. It was there before the advent of the forward pass. It is the core element of football defense. Either Bates sucks, the Broncos are too stupid to understand what he's saying, or just flat out nobody is listening. If the guy has to change his scheme every week, putting DEs in the center of the line for instance, there is some kind of disconnect going on. Doesn't look to me like he has a scheme. If he did, why would he change it every week? Like Captain Willard said to Colonel Kurtz, "I don't see any method at all."

Or, the players are nowhere near competent enough at implementing the current scheme in the front seven. They have COMPLETELY changed the DL technique, COMPLETELY reworked the LB's positions, keys, reads, and responsibilities, and they have even changed the secondaries primary coverages and responsibilities.

Competency takes time, effort, motivation, experience, familiarity, and adversity. Right now, DEN has not had enough of any of those factors 4 games into the season. Some of them are inexcusable as motivation and effort. Coaching can not change that though, that is the responsibility of the individual. What Coaching can do is BENCH the Starting DT's and tell them they are not good enough to play the Colts and make everyone in the country aware of it.

BTW, there is a method even if it is not producing the desired results at this point. Not everything goes as planned, right? And right now, the run defense is the most deficient part.

The funniest part of this is the lack of a scheme argument though as everyone was ready to run Coyer out of town for not being innovative enough and not making adjustments during the game ;D Now, everyone wants to criticize not staying with the scheme and doing too much :rofl: The real problem is no one likes the results and have very little idea of what really happened.

Bates 3-4 looks gave the Colts fits in that first half and allowed them to jump out to the early lead. No one has even come close to giving him credit for the Balls to throw that out there with that weak ass DL and LB's that were already confused. Finally, Manning and Moore adjusted and had the TE split to the weak side and force a LB or safety out of the running game. They spread out a front seven that has been porous already and ran all over them. The initial gameplan had the desired results and no one cares because the Colts are that complete of an offense that they could just switch attack modes to finish them off.

It is OK to be upset at their performance to date, because it has not been pretty. But All more change will do is make them worse in the short term and not gaurantee any improvement in the long term either.

[Rohirrim]

I'll tell you what really worries me. That Bates will get the HC job he has always wanted next season and the Broncos will have to start all over - again. I liked Hulumau's idea. Somewhere is the next Bill Belichick, some thirty something assistant defensive coach on some team who could come in here, commit for five years, and bring some enthusiasm and fire. Even if the Broncos are in the middle of investing new schemes, there doesn't seem to be much fire in their bellies.

But I realize that for now, Bates is going nowhere.

[Mediator12]

I'll tell you what really worries me. That Bates will get the HC job he has always wanted next season and the Broncos will have to start all over - again. I liked Hulumau's idea. Somewhere is the next Bill Belichick, some thirty something assistant defensive coach on some team who could come in here, commit for five years, and bring some enthusiasm and fire. Even if the Broncos are in the middle of investing new schemes, there doesn't seem to be much fire in their bellies.

But I realize that for now, Bates is going nowhere.

Who would hire a Head Coach who can not stop the run ROFL!

See, at least there is a positive to all of this ;D Batess is here until he fixes this thing!

[Rohirrim]

Who would hire a Head Coach who can not stop the run ROFL!

See, at least there is a positive to all of this ;D Batess is here until he fixes this thing!

Ha! That's one way to look at it.

[jonny1]

Couldn't we have played our usual defense and worked on getting better stopping the run with Adams, Gordon, etc., in the middle instead of implementing a gimmicky defense designed to do who knows what.

Sam Adams would have lasted maybe 5 plays against the no-huddle, and then would not have been able to get off the field in time for a substitution.

Manning and the Colts are a different breed than any other team in the NFL. I give Bates props for at least trying something, and that worked for awhile. If the offense had scored three TDs in the first half instead of one TD and two FGs, it might have held up through the game.

[epa86b@netzero]

Competency takes time, effort, motivation, experience, familiarity, and adversity. Right now, DEN has not had enough of any of those factors 4 games into the season. Some of them are inexcusable as motivation and effort. Coaching can not change that though, that is the responsibility of the individual. What Coaching can do is BENCH the Starting DT's and tell them they are not good enough to play the Colts and make everyone in the country aware of it.

BTW, there is a method even if it is not producing the desired results at this point. Not everything goes as planned, right? And right now, the run defense is the most deficient part.

Bates 3-4 looks gave the Colts fits in that first half and allowed them to jump out to the early lead. No one has even come close to giving him credit for the Balls to throw that out there with that weak ass DL and LB's that were already confused. Finally, Manning and Moore adjusted and had the TE split to the weak side and force a LB or safety out of the running game. They spread out a front seven that has been porous already and ran all over them. The initial gameplan had the desired results and no one cares because the Colts are that complete of an offense that they could just switch attack modes to finish them off.

It is OK to be upset at their performance to date, because it has not been pretty. But All more change will do is make them worse in the short term and not gaurantee any improvement in the long term either.

We have not seen eye to eye on a few issues in the past. However, I agree with you on the fact that competency takes time unless you have expectional talent who pick concepts up quickly. In addition, there are huge men on the other side of the ball with a purpose of their own; thus, it is not easy.

You are right Bates was successful with the scheme change in the first quarter against INDY. If the Offensive could have controlled the ball more, things could have been different.

Bottomline: No one on this board likes the results of the defense because the expectations were probably too high to begin with in the first place. Patience is a virtue and Rome was not built in a day.

Random Thought (That show deflect some attention from the Broncos.)

Come to think of it, a few years Bush declared victory in the Iraqi war. Thus, we see victory (success) is different to different folks. Likewise, the Broncos defense is probably making baby steps in the new scheme versus the sprint most people want to see.

[Drek]

I'll tell you what really worries me. That Bates will get the HC job he has always wanted next season and the Broncos will have to start all over - again. I liked Hulumau's idea. Somewhere is the next Bill Belichick, some thirty something assistant defensive coach on some team who could come in here, commit for five years, and bring some enthusiasm and fire. Even if the Broncos are in the middle of investing new schemes, there doesn't seem to be much fire in their bellies.

But I realize that for now, Bates is going nowhere.
Bates, like Heimerdinger, is never going to get the HC job he wants. They're both old veteran coaches in a league that is progressively moving away from that. The past two years we've seen two pretty high profile jobs go to two 30-somethings. Even teams that went with veterans are already instituting a apprenticeship-style system that has a replacement already in mind (i.e. Dallas). Bates and Heimerdinger aren't looking for those kinds of HC positions where they'd be out on their asses the second the front office feels the young guy is "ready".

Its just not going to happen short of us winning a championship. At that point more power to them.

[jmz313]

THE RUN D WILL IMPROVE. well, they really can't get any worse.

Bates won't be a head coaching canidate unless he lights the League on fire. Since the title of this thread is "Bates Must go", seems he's not quite there yet.

Dinger doesn;t even deserve to be called a O cordinator. Over the last 8 years is only good O was a Power running team. Not much to cordinate when your giving a in his prime eddie george the ball 35 times a game and letting McNair take a few shots.

[Beantown Bronco]

THE RUN D WILL IMPROVE. well, they really can't get any worse.

Bates won't be a head coaching canidate unless he lights the League on fire.

Exactly.....if Kubiak couldn't get a head coaching job after back-to-back SB wins, running a juggernaut of an offense, then I am clearly not worried about losing a guy like Bates anytime soon.

[broncsyanks]

LMAO that it took this long to have this thread up and going.
stay positive. rome wasnt built in a day

[azbroncfan]

Or, the players are nowhere near competent enough at implementing the current scheme in the front seven. They have COMPLETELY changed the DL technique, COMPLETELY reworked the LB's positions, keys, reads, and responsibilities, and they have even changed the secondaries primary coverages and responsibilities.

Competency takes time, effort, motivation, experience, familiarity, and adversity. Right now, DEN has not had enough of any of those factors 4 games into the season. Some of them are inexcusable as motivation and effort. Coaching can not change that though, that is the responsibility of the individual. What Coaching can do is BENCH the Starting DT's and tell them they are not good enough to play the Colts and make everyone in the country aware of it.

BTW, there is a method even if it is not producing the desired results at this point. Not everything goes as planned, right? And right now, the run defense is the most deficient part.

The funniest part of this is the lack of a scheme argument though as everyone was ready to run Coyer out of town for not being innovative enough and not making adjustments during the game ;D Now, everyone wants to criticize not staying with the scheme and doing too much :rofl: The real problem is no one likes the results and have very little idea of what really happened.

Bates 3-4 looks gave the Colts fits in that first half and allowed them to jump out to the early lead. No one has even come close to giving him credit for the Balls to throw that out there with that weak ass DL and LB's that were already confused. Finally, Manning and Moore adjusted and had the TE split to the weak side and force a LB or safety out of the running game. They spread out a front seven that has been porous already and ran all over them. The initial gameplan had the desired results and no one cares because the Colts are that complete of an offense that they could just switch attack modes to finish them off.

It is OK to be upset at their performance to date, because it has not been pretty. But All more change will do is make them worse in the short term and not gaurantee any improvement in the long term either.


Personally I like the fact that Bates tried something that he had no idea of how it would work. That is what I hated about Coyer is he wouldn't change even no matter what. Coyer put out D's that surrendered on average 40 pts against the colts but wouldn't change anything for fear of allowing 50. I like Bates approach, Bates also knows he has garbage at the DT postion.

[Popps]

Bates, like Heimerdinger, is never going to get the HC job he wants. They're both old veteran coaches in a league that is progressively moving away from that. The past two years we've seen two pretty high profile jobs go to two 30-somethings. Even teams that went with veterans are already instituting a apprenticeship-style system that has a replacement already in mind (i.e. Dallas). Bates and Heimerdinger aren't looking for those kinds of HC positions where they'd be out on their asses the second the front office feels the young guy is "ready".

Its just not going to happen short of us winning a championship. At that point more power to them.

Not totally sure about that. We've seen guys like Norv Turner and Wade Phillips get jobs lately. Given, they come with a bit more history... but they're still "old" coaches.

Overall, I think you make a good point. I just think there are and will be exceptions. But, the way Bates' squad is playing... he can rest assured no one is looking at him as head coach-material right now.

[fontaine]

If you did not think they changed things up yesterday, then enough said.

No kidding we were using Crowder and Moss in an elephant role to try and change things with two lighter DTs in 2nd half.

That's about as Non Bates as you can get.

[Beantown Bronco]

Bates also knows he has garbage at the DT postion.

Part of that is his own fault.....Warren, like him or not, was the best DT on the roster.

[Peoples Champ]

A lot of times against the colts it wasn't the penetration that was the problem of the D- Line, it was the miss tackles when they met addia at the LOS, not only did they miss the first tackle, they would miss second and third, i saw a lot of what should have been small gain or no gain runs turn into 4-8 yard gains and even more, they need to get better at tackling, or get players that can

[Drek]

Not totally sure about that. We've seen guys like Norv Turner and Wade Phillips get jobs lately. Given, they come with a bit more history... but they're still "old" coaches.

Overall, I think you make a good point. I just think there are and will be exceptions. But, the way Bates' squad is playing... he can rest assured no one is looking at him as head coach-material right now.

There are exceptions, but those cases will require some kind of outstanding production from their respective units. Also, Phillips and Turner have HC experience so they're viewed as stop gap material, guys who know how to manage a team and can step in and keep them rolling while younger guys are waiting in the wings, which is especially true in Phillips' case. As for Turner, I think a big part of why he got the job was his previous experience in SD and that the offense they run is pretty much what he installed back then. I don't see Miami or Green Bay calling Bates up real soon to fill coaching vacancies they only just filled (and denied him for), and Heimerdinger's offense isn't really at the core of what NYJ does anymore.

I think its a damn shame that both guys got sandbagged by teams looking for more media attractive options, but thats the way the NFL works today, front office moves are very media-centric.

[Orange_Beard]

Um, no. We got Bates to fix the pass rush. So far he's done a pretty good job in that category, as he's got Dumervil and Moss looking like real gamers, and thats without the interior help they need to really shine.

The problem isn't Bates. Its some variety of the DTs, Gold, and Williams from week to week. The DTs can't fill their holes to save their lives and DJ is the schizophrenic linebacker. Reading and reacting like he should well ahead on one play, then so far off on the next that its pathetic.

Today Gold was the real dilemma though. Our linebackers need to be able to cover TEs. But no matter who Gold was lined up on he was giving up a step or two, completion after completion. Same on running plays, he was never in position and gave up a big chunk of Addai's yardage.

There's no problem with Bates. There's a problem with our interior. Its rotten. But thankfully in the NFL a rotten core doesn't mean you have to throw it all away. The real value is on the edges in this league, corners and DEs, guys who've got to play on the island. We got those positions covered. Now we just need to rip out the innards of this D and replace it with guys who're going to show up and do their jobs.

This team misses Al Wilson like a heroin junky in rehab misses the needle. If he had a healthy Al Wilson this team would be looking at ending the week 4-0 and would be considered one of the league's dominant few. Without him though there's no buck stops here run stuffer.

Don't be a dumb ****. What got the guy to make our D a superbowl D, to take to the next level.

FYI: If you can't stop the run you can't win.
I was just pointing out the the 2 worst run D's in the NFL are heavily Bates influenced.

If you think that MLB is the only problem with this D then you are not watching the same games I am. Our line is getting blown back into the linebackers. Teams ran the ball on us pretty well last year. LJ and LT has big game against us.

[BroncoSexyDaddy]

Nice to see that Gerard Warren got 4 tackles and a sack today for the Raiders. Man we sure couldn't use that. Glad we jettisoned Al Wilson like trash, put D.J. Williams in a position he never played, made John Engelberger a starting DE, Amon Gordon a starting DT, and continue to keep Ian Gold on the field. The roster moves on this team are a joke.Bates is a good def Coordinater he needs the pieces to make his system work.Ian Gold,Adams,Gordan,Webster ,Engelburger what a joke :rofl:

[fontaine]

Bates is a good def Coordinater he needs the pieces to make his system work.Ian Gold,Adams,Gordan,Webster ,Engelburger what a joke :rofl:

Good point.

Last year when Coyer was fired, I wasn't exactly dreaming about having a defense in '07 with Gold, Webster, Gordon, Engleburger, Sam Adams as starters among the front 7. You can't run a superbowl D with super chump talent.

[Drek]

Don't be a dumb ****. What got the guy to make our D a superbowl D, to take to the next level.

FYI: If you can't stop the run you can't win.
I was just pointing out the the 2 worst run D's in the NFL are heavily Bates influenced.
And if you can't stop the pass you get torched for 40 like the Colts did to us a few years in a row.

Also, Bates was at Green Bay more recently than Miami, and Green Bay still runs the same defensive system. They're 15th against the run, not amazing sure, but solid. Miami is pretty far removed from Bates' tenure there. They've changed coaching regimes twice already since he left.

If you think that MLB is the only problem with this D then you are not watching the same games I am.
The problem isn't Bates. Its some variety of the DTs, Gold, and Williams from week to week.

I'm just going to assume you're drunk/stoned/barely awake, some reason other than just not having any reading comprehension and/or logical thought skills.

[Orange_Beard]

And if you can't stop the pass you get torched for 40 like the Colts did to us a few years in a row.

Also, Bates was at Green Bay more recently than Miami, and Green Bay still runs the same defensive system. They're 15th against the run, not amazing sure, but solid. Miami is pretty far removed from Bates' tenure there. They've changed coaching regimes twice already since he left.




I'm just going to assume you're drunk/stoned/barely awake, some reason other than just not having any reading comprehension and/or logical thought skills.

FYI, the Broncos are in this Division call the "AFC West".
This Division features 3 VERY, VERY average to below average QB's(not counting the Broncos). It also features the 2 best running backs in the game and one that I would call above average. If you can't stop these guys you won't have to worry about the Colts.

You are right, the Bates D was great against the pass. We did not give up 40, only 38.

[Peoples Champ]

<TABLE class=tablehead cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left></TD><TD>http://assets.espn.go.com/i/teamlogos/nfl/sml/trans/den.gif</TD><TD>http://assets.espn.go.com/i/teamlogos/nfl/sml/trans/ind.gif</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD class=bi align=left>1st Downs</TD><TD>22</TD><TD>30</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>3rd down efficiency
</TD><TD>6-10</TD><TD>6-10</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>4th down efficiency
</TD><TD>0-0</TD><TD>0-0</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD class=bi align=left>Total Yards</TD><TD>354</TD><TD>419</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD class=bi align=left>Passing</TD><TD>131</TD><TD>193</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow align=right><TD align=left>Comp-Att
</TD><TD>13-21</TD><TD>20-27</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Yards per pass
</TD><TD>6.2</TD><TD>7.1</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD class=bi align=left>Rushing</TD><TD>223</TD><TD>226</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Rushing Attempts
</TD><TD>36</TD><TD>37</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Yards per rush
</TD><TD>6.2</TD><TD>6.1</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD class=bi align=left>Penalties</TD><TD>4-32</TD><TD>2-10</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD class=bi align=left>Turnovers</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Fumbles lost
</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow align=right><TD align=left>Interceptions thrown
</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=colhead align=right><TD class=bi align=left>Possession</TD><TD>29:12</TD><TD>30:48</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

If you look at the box score, we were pretty even with the colts when it came to time of possession, rushing yards, 3rd down conversions,
Really the thing that hurt us was the turnovers and the penalties, and maybe the passing yards, but everything else was almost even, if you think about it, the broncos were close until cutler threw the pick, then it was just downhill, can't turn the ball over against the colts and expect to win

[Drek]

FYI, the Broncos are in this Division call the "AFC West".
This Division features 3 VERY, VERY average to below average QB's(not counting the Broncos). It also features the 2 best running backs in the game and one that I would call above average. If you can't stop these guys you won't have to worry about the Colts.

You are right, the Bates D was great against the pass. We did not give up 40, only 38.

So you'd be content with whipping the division and getting a quick playoff exit handed to us every year?

Are you the Bronco equivalent of a KC fan? Beating division rivals is enough for you? Sorry. This franchise expects more. Bates is the first step towards the defense living up to that.

[Rock Chalk]

So you'd be content with whipping the division and getting a quick playoff exit handed to us every year?

Are you the Bronco equivalent of a KC fan? Beating division rivals is enough for you? Sorry. This franchise expects more. Bates is the first step towards the defense living up to that.

The first goal is to win the division.

If you cant win this crappy division, you cant get to the playoffs to lose to the colts.

[Beantown Bronco]

It's an interesting philosophical debate:

Do you draft and build your team around who you know you will face multiple times in the regular season every year, and concede the fact that you will not match up very well with the teams you believe you'll likely face in the playoffs......or do you draft and build your team around who you believe you will face every year in the playoffs (hoping that you squeak out enough wins in the regular season to make it in there to begin with)?

I think it's obvious which way the Broncos have been going.....starting with their "DB heavy" draft of a few years ago and continuing throughout this offseason.

[Peoples Champ]

It's an interesting philosophical debate:

Do you draft and build your team around who you know you will face multiple times in the regular season every year, and concede the fact that you will not match up very well with the teams you believe you'll likely face in the playoffs......or do you draft and build your team around who you believe you will face every year in the playoffs (hoping that you squeak out enough wins in the regular season to make it in there to begin with)?

I think it's obvious which way the Broncos have been going.....starting with their "DB heavy" draft of a few years ago and continuing throughout this offseason.



What do you mean, we drafted three DL this year, two that were starters on the best team in college football, and the offseason pickup was because of the unfortunate loss of one of our DBs (RIP DW)

[Beantown Bronco]

What do you mean, we drafted three DL this year, two that were starters on the best team in college football, and the offseason pickup was because of the unfortunate loss of one of our DBs (RIP DW)

I don't understand your question. It was obvious to everyone that this draft and the hiring of Bates was all about getting pressure on the QB at the expense of stopping the run. Why would we do that? Because we wanted to get to guys like Manning and Big Ben and not let them have all day sitting back there picking us apart.

It certainly wasn't meant to help us stop LT and LJ.....I can tell you that much.

That is what I'm saying. In a division that runs the ball with great success, the Broncos chose to embrace a defensive system and defensive players that by and large do a great job against the pass, but not such a great job against the run (see also: Miami and Green Bay when Bates was there).

[Peoples Champ]

Yes they did draft speed guys, but we also brought in some beef, big sam adams is there even though he might be old, they are still trying , i am not sure it is the size or speed of our dl, but the inability to tackle from them and some lbs, i saw many times we had addai stopped for a short gain then he would break tackles and run for a bunch more yards, i think tackling should be emphasized more than the type of size and speed guys we bring in

[Beantown Bronco]

Yes they did draft speed guys, but we also brought in some beef, big sam adams is there even though he might be old, they are still trying , i am not sure it is the size or speed of our dl, but the inability to tackle from them and some lbs, i saw many times we had addai stopped for a short gain then he would break tackles and run for a bunch more yards, i think tackling should be emphasized more than the type of size and speed guys we bring it

I think you're missing the point. For the past 5-7 years, the Broncos have been top 5 in the league in stopping the run. This was great. It got them a consistently great division record and got them to the playoffs fairly regularly.

The flip side to that coin is that they sucked against the pass.....which was OK during the regular season, because most of our opponents (namely, our division rivals) couldn't exploit that weakness with any consistency. But guess what? The Broncos always faced teams in the playoffs that COULD exploit this weakness.

So, somewhere in the recent past IMO, they obviously said "screw it....we're selling out to better match up against teams with great QBs that can pass at will against us....namely, the Colts and Steelers". They brought in DBs by the dozen and, more recently, DLinemen that specialized in getting to the QB.....then they sealed the deal by bringing in a new coordinator who has a history of stopping the pass, but has average at best numbers against the run (and those "average" numbers are not coming against division opponents with the likes of LT and LJ, by the way). Sure, they brought in the token Sam Adams, but only because they needed him for the new "system". He really isn't much of a run stopper, he's just a clogger (in theory) though I haven't seen much of that even.

[Peoples Champ]

Yes Big Sam hasn't been playing well, he is a clogger but needs to do better at clogging so the lbs can make the tackles, don't forget we did lose a multi probowler at MLB which is a key position to stopping the run, and dj is doing an ok job but was much better at OLB, also bates should have switched it up and just brought the house on manning a lot, not only they would have run blitzed but maybe put a little pressure on manning, which is how teams have beat the colts in the past, i think they should have just tried something else that game because nothing was working, they should have done what they sometimes do and put all 9 guys on the line, then iso the corners, the worst thing that could have happened is that the corners would have got burned, but that would have been better than the 70 yard 8 minute drives that they ended up having, and if that didnt work, then we just need to tackle better, because the players were in the right spots to tackle (put in those spots by Bates), but didn't make the tackles , which is their own faults, all bates can do is put them in the right spots

[Peoples Champ]

ya he needs to get better at clogging, so the lbs can make better attempts at tackling

[Beantown Bronco]

I understand what went wrong.....what they need to do....etc. That's being discussed in 100 other threads. What I am looking for here is an answer from people over what philosophy they prefer.

Do you prefer option no. 1 (these are going to be over-simplified, but work with me)

Build your team to win in the regular season (by stopping the KCs and SD's of the world) and hope that you don't face the Colts or the Steelers in the post season (or at least catch them on an "off" day)

or option no. 2:

Build your team to match up well (in theory) against playoff teams like the Colts; while sacrificing your typical strengths (top 5 in stopping the run) and quite possibly lessening the probability of even making the playoffs.

[Peoples Champ]

Ya, it would be best to build the team to stop everything, but i know thats in a perfect world and in this world we should just try to build the most well rounded d as possible, they might not be better at one or the other, but average at both, just like offense , instead of building a great passing offense, or running, you build a balanced offense, those are the hardest to stop, our superbowl defense was well rounded, not great at one or the other, but good at both

[Beantown Bronco]

Ya, it would be best to build the team to stop everything, but i know thats in a perfect world and in this world we should just try to build the most well rounded d as possible, they might not be better at one or the other, but average at both, just like offense , instead of building a great passing offense, or running, you build a balanced offense, those are the hardest to stop, our superbowl defense was well rounded, not great at one or the other, but good at both

Obviously....I'm not giving you that option though. I'm forcing you to commit....like the Broncos have.

If forced to decide.....do you choose one or two?

Let's put it a different way. And please don't bug me about how I came up with the numbers.....just play along.

Option one:

75% chance of making it to the playoffs.
25% chance of winning when you get there.

Option two:

30-40% chance of making it to the playoffs.
60% chance of winning when you get there.

[Peoples Champ]

thats hard, i mean there is nothing harder on the fans than a playoff loss, especially to indy, they crush me , i would almost rather not make the playoffs, talk to cubs fans, they have been dealing with it for years, its devasting losing in the playoffs, but im torn because if you are not in the playoffs or in the hunt, then its a short season for the fan, maybe onlye 10 or 12 weeks long, because the last couple wont mean anything

[Peoples Champ]

The way this season is going i would take option 2, the afc west is up for grabs, squeek in the playoffs and win the bowl, just like the st louis cardinals last year

[Drek]

The first goal is to win the division.

If you cant win this crappy division, you cant get to the playoffs to lose to the colts.

Thats not the point. We could've stuck with the status quo by keeping Coyer, implementing temporary patches to the front seven, and consistently win the division without doing anything else worthwhile.

We brought Bates in to get the defense out of the pass rush rut it was in. He's doing it, but other aspects have been significantly weakened in the interim. It'd only make sense to give him a shot to fix these new holes before we throw what looks to be the very system we need out to door before he gets to really try and fill the gaps his way instead of doing so with Coyer's hand me downs.

[Beantown Bronco]

It'd only make sense to give him a shot to fix these new holes before we throw what looks to be the very system we need out to door before he gets to really try and fill the gaps his way instead of doing so with Coyer's hand me downs.

he already got rid of those.

[DenverBrit]

ya he needs to get better at clogging, so the lbs can make better attempts at tackling

The entire line is 'clogging', and it's not helping. :clown:

[Peoples Champ]

by clogging i meant taking up 2 blockers or even three, so the lbs can make the tackles