Help me to understand this

[Bob]

I believe the radical Islamist is the biggest threat to the left and right in America – as the Islamists don’t want to win an election, they (millions) want to destroy our way of life. Now, most on the left do not believe this is a realistic fear (at least that is my impression.) I believe the President of Iran, when he says that he wants to hasten the Madhi’s return – which can only happen, once again by his own words when the “great Satan” (us) is destroyed. As the USA defenses are constructed to defend itself against cold war enemies from frontal attacks, we are very vulnerable. Yes I am concerned that there are 26% of the 2.3 million Muslims here in America already that feel that attacks against civilians is an acceptable approach to facilitate political or religious change.

The left do not understand issues of faith in general – they are more threatened by Christians – anyone else gets a free pass – and I don’t get it. Yesterday president Tom said there are “no gays” in Iran, and when asked about capital punishment for gays he said that “you have capital punishment as well” and gave examples of it – meanwhile people in the audience clapped – I heard the speech – freaking amazing – why were not gays incensed and protesting at Columbia, where was NOW? Women can be beaten for showing there hair in public. I don’t get that. I don’t see much of a difference between him and the Hitler of 32. So is it that there are many on the left that are just as threatened but believe diplomacy is the better/only path, or is it an issue that Christians vote in bigger blocks – so they are the short-term enemy?

[Garcia Bronco]

I don't think Muslims in general in this country would being doing that. If they ever acted up to the point of violent change...we'd just remove them by force or otherwise.

You are correct that the left in general does not understand faith, and it is strangely silent from all the ideals that Tom presented yesterday to our public. Most likely because they are chicken**** anti-american iceholes. But I could be wrong.

[Bob]

I don't think Muslims in general in this country would being doing that. If they ever acted up to the point of violent change...we'd just remove them by force or otherwise.

You are correct that the left in general does not understand faith, and it is strangely silent from all the ideals that Tom presented yesterday to our public. Most likely because they are chicken**** anti-american iceholes. But I could be wrong.

I do think that fear has something to do with it. NOW is silent on many issues regarding the Islamic agenda -- I think they are afraid -- I mean if there were 9 deaths from one cartoon, they have participated in selective outrage, self-censurship, and target the soft Christain.

[alkemical]

I believe the radical Islamist is the biggest threat to the left and right in America – as the Islamists don’t want to win an election, they (millions) want to destroy our way of life. Now, most on the left do not believe this is a realistic fear (at least that is my impression.) I believe the President of Iran, when he says that he wants to hasten the Madhi’s return – which can only happen, once again by his own words when the “great Satan” (us) is destroyed. As the USA defenses are constructed to defend itself against cold war enemies from frontal attacks, we are very vulnerable. Yes I am concerned that there are 26% of the 2.3 million Muslims here in America already that feel that attacks against civilians is an acceptable approach to facilitate political or religious change.

The left do not understand issues of faith in general – they are more threatened by Christians – anyone else gets a free pass – and I don’t get it. Yesterday president Tom said there are “no gays” in Iran, and when asked about capital punishment for gays he said that “you have capital punishment as well” and gave examples of it – meanwhile people in the audience clapped – I heard the speech – freaking amazing – why were not gays incensed and protesting at Columbia, where was NOW? Women can be beaten for showing there hair in public. I don’t get that. I don’t see much of a difference between him and the Hitler of 32. So is it that there are many on the left that are just as threatened but believe diplomacy is the better/only path, or is it an issue that Christians vote in bigger blocks – so they are the short-term enemy?

madhi is another's saviour. if enough people want the end of the world, it will happen.

[ant1999e]

Because almond joy hates bush and so does the left. They will get in bed with anyone who hate him. "My enemies enemy is my friend."

[Spider]

Because almond joy hates bush and so does the left. They will get in bed with anyone who hate him. "My enemies enemy is my friend."

LOL if it was only that simple , but most of us supported Bush going into afghanistan hell Bush had a 89% approval rating , we believed Bush when he said he will get justice ........ He played us like a ****ing fool , then punked us ,and treated us like we was stupid .......
be honest how in the hell can you believe anything Bush or those around him say ?
think about it , everything in the war on terror Bush and his ilk have said turned out ot be bull**** ...... how much more bull**** are we to believe ?
these are peoples lives we are playing with , Bush made a big ole ****ing joke of it and a press party ....... I hate Bin Laden with a passion , why ? he killed 3,000 of our fellow country men , I hate Bush for the same ****ing reason ....... I hate Almond Joy for attacking our embassy and taking our fellow country men hostage ........ it is sad , when I cant believe either Bush or almond joy ......

[ant1999e]

LOL if it was only that simple , but most of us supported Bush going into afghanistan hell Bush had a 89% approval rating , we believed Bush when he said he will get justice ........ He played us like a ****ing fool , then punked us ,and treated us like we was stupid .......
be honest how in the hell can you believe anything Bush or those around him say ?
think about it , everything in the war on terror Bush and his ilk have said turned out ot be bull**** ...... how much more bull**** are we to believe ?
these are peoples lives we are playing with , Bush made a big ole ****ing joke of it and a press party ....... I hate Bin Laden with a passion , why ? he killed 3,000 of our fellow country men , I hate Bush for the same ****ing reason ....... I hate Almond Joy for attacking our embassy and taking our fellow country men hostage ........ it is sad , when I cant believe either Bush or almond joy ......

I agree. He has zero credibility. Another problem is that we can't believe anything we get from the news or in the newspapers. They've all sold out to one side or the other.

[Taco John]

I don't have the sense that anybody on "the left" thinks anything except that Ahmadenijad is a buffoon. Most people on the left that I've observed think he and Bush deserve eachother, and in that sense, pity the Iranian people as much as they pity our own circumstances.

Seriously... With "leaders" like these...

[Spider]

I agree. He has zero credibility. Another problem is that we can't believe anything we get from the news or in the newspapers. They've all sold out to one side or the other.
they sure have .........

[Garcia Bronco]

I don't think Bush and Tom aren't even in the same league...it's hardly the same game. I think a few out there could stand to spend some time in Iran.

[TheDave]

I believe the radical Islamist is the biggest threat to the left and right in America

I disagree. Radical Islam has been around for centuries. IMO they are no more a threat today than they were before 9/11. Sometimes bad people do bad things... Just the way this world works.


as the Islamists don’t want to win an election, they (millions) want to destroy our way of life.

Again i disagree... A small number of them are bomb strapping idiots. I'm not sure where you get the idea that millions of them want to "Destroy our way of life"


I believe the President of Iran, when he says that he wants to hasten the Madhi’s return – which can only happen, once again by his own words when the “great Satan” (us) is destroyed. As the USA defenses are constructed to defend itself against cold war enemies from frontal attacks, we are very vulnerable.

The pres of Iran is a lunatic and doesn't seem to have the majority of his people supporting him. Again JMO, i wouldn't worry about him.

Yes I am concerned that there are 26% of the 2.3 million Muslims here in America already that feel that attacks against civilians is an acceptable approach to facilitate political or religious change.

So what should we do... lock them up for bad thoughts?

The left do not understand issues of faith in general – they are more threatened by Christians – anyone else gets a free pass – and I don’t get it.

Good lord... I suspect this opinion has been helped along by Rush, Hannity, etc.

I don’t see much of a difference between him and the Hitler of 32.

That your opinion and you are entitled to it... But you do not invade/bomb countries because in your opinion someone is a bad guy. Did you not learn anything from Iraq?

So is it that there are many on the left that are just as threatened but believe diplomacy is the better/only path

Yes I'm nuts... I think there is a better solution than killing thousands of people.

or is it an issue that Christians vote in bigger blocks – so they are the short-term enemy?

Did someone say we should launch a preemptive military strike against Christians? Honestly I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Rohirrim]

I know it won't do any good telling you this, Bob, but you are part of the problem. The fact that you buy this crap and then regurgitate it is exactly what the Bush cabal wants out of you. You are the 30% that Bush keeps addressing, while ignoring the rest of us. You are the 30% that keeps us in Iraq. You are the 30% that buys the lies. You are the 30% that enables Bush to attack our Constitution.

Try to let this seep into some little crack in that thick load of bs you're carrying around: We attacked them. We started it in the 1920s and we've been doing it ever since. Every president and every British prime minister since the 1920s (in the name of giant oil corporations ) has been attacking the Muslim world and stealing their oil for almost a hundred years. We overthrew their democratically elected leaders. We set up the dictators. We built the prisons. We trained their secret police. We taught them how to torture their own people. Like many historians now admit, 911 was born in the prisons of Egypt. That's the truth. That's a fact.

It's bad enough that we have a President who thinks the best policy is to lie through his teeth, but the worse part is that 30% of Americans who allow him to keep doing it.

[Denver Crush]

I know it won't do any good telling you this, Bob, but you are part of the problem. The fact that you buy this crap and then regurgitate it is exactly what the Bush cabal wants out of you. You are the 30% that Bush keeps addressing, while ignoring the rest of us. You are the 30% that keeps us in Iraq. You are the 30% that buys the lies. You are the 30% that enables Bush to attack our Constitution.

Try to let this seep into some little crack in that thick load of bs you're carrying around: We attacked them. We started it in the 1920s and we've been doing it ever since. Every president and every British prime minister since the 1920s (in the name of giant oil corporations ) has been attacking the Muslim world and stealing their oil for almost a hundred years. We overthrew their democratically elected leaders. We set up the dictators. We built the prisons. We trained their secret police. We taught them how to torture their own people. Like many historians now admit, 911 was born in the prisons of Egypt. That's the truth. That's a fact.

It's bad enough that we have a President who thinks the best policy is to lie through his teeth, but the worse part is that 30% of Americans who allow him to keep doing it.

God damn that was beautiful! :thumbsup:

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think that the modern media-driven liberal is a collection of loosely connected ideas that form a weakly and erratically spun web of reactionary politics.

For instance: 911 happened, ergo, religion should be minimalized in and ultimately removed from society.

There isnt a bit of wisdom or truth in that philosophy, but it provides instant gratification for the shallow.

[Bob]

"Again i disagree... A small number of them are bomb strapping idiots. I'm not sure where you get the idea that millions of them want to "Destroy our way of life"

I think you are wrong a small percenatge of 10% worldwide would be equal to 100 million. 10% of the 2.3 million Muslims in America is a number worth noting -- the majority want peace like you and I, but if 19 could cause 911 -- 230,000 could have a pretty good impact in a non-frontal attack. Hell 1000 that are willing to act could have a huge impact. Millions do want to destroy your way of life and mine. Pew research (not a conservative think tank by any stretch – look it up if you have the time) indicated that in America that 26% of Muslim young men in America felt that it was acceptable to kill civilians here to push political/religious change. In the same polls given in several countries there were similar percentages across the world (with higher percentages in some prominently Muslim countries.) As there are a billion Muslims in the world it is not a stretch to say millions want to destroy our way of life I think that even using conservative numbers of 10% that are “radicalized” would equate to 100 million. It is the truth, and built into the extreme ideology. I hope that after Bush is gone that the threate will be seen more clearly by the left and right. I dont have many great solutions for what I see if a threat, but I do know that unless the problem is seen it cant be dealt with.

[Rohirrim]

BTW, what is our "way of life?"

Answer this question, Bob. There are millions of Muslims in India and yet we haven't seen any Indian Muslims involved in any attacks against the U.S. or India. Given that there are hundreds of thousands of Muslim Indians living in Europe and the U.S., why is that?

[epicSocialism4tw]

BTW, what is our "way of life?"

Answer this question, Bob. There are millions of Muslims in India and yet we haven't seen any Indian Muslims involved in any attacks against the U.S. or India. Given that there are hundreds of thousands of Muslim Indians living in Europe and the U.S., why is that?

You're kidding, right?

I think you've got your head in the sand, dude.

[Bob]

I know it won't do any good telling you this, Bob, but you are part of the problem. The fact that you buy this crap and then regurgitate it is exactly what the Bush cabal wants out of you. You are the 30% that Bush keeps addressing, while ignoring the rest of us. You are the 30% that keeps us in Iraq. You are the 30% that buys the lies. You are the 30% that enables Bush to attack our Constitution.

Try to let this seep into some little crack in that thick load of bs you're carrying around: We attacked them. We started it in the 1920s and we've been doing it ever since. Every president and every British prime minister since the 1920s (in the name of giant oil corporations ) has been attacking the Muslim world and stealing their oil for almost a hundred years. We overthrew their democratically elected leaders. We set up the dictators. We built the prisons. We trained their secret police. We taught them how to torture their own people. Like many historians now admit, 911 was born in the prisons of Egypt. That's the truth. That's a fact.

It's bad enough that we have a President who thinks the best policy is to lie through his teeth, but the worse part is that 30% of Americans who allow him to keep doing it.

Thanks for your well-expressed response.

I think that Bush may be one of the distractions in dealing with this conflict. I was one of the few (in the circles that I have) that thought that going into Iraq was a bad idea – and pissed some family members off by sharing the simple idea that “destroying is easy, building is hard.” However, I did not get sucked up into some of the media’s claims that it would be a hard battle to take Bagdad – it was easy, but so what -- then what does one do? But again, for the left the issue of Islamic extremism is framed, like almost everything “Bush, Bush, Bush.” In 2008 I hope we don’t find a new political whipping boy so we can start seeing ourselves as Americans first and find a good path moving forward.

Regarding our influence of the Muslim world’s hate against us, oil issues may be a factor – dictators sure. However, the Jihad against the West stretches back to the very origin of Islam – not just 100 years. WE WERE NOT TO BLAME FOR 911. Now, I think we will be hit again, and there is evidence that the next attack will be against our children as they want full-blown irrational retaliation against Muslims in our country that will be used to justify and recruit more to their cause. This anarchy is one of the precursors to their Messiah coming, and they can hasten it (as president Tom likes to say.) One month ago there were some 20 busses stolen in Texas – where are they now? Now one knows, but several Middle Eastern men on FBI watch lists have been caught and guess what jobs they had? Yup – children buss drivers.

[TailgateNut]

"Again i disagree... A small number of them are bomb strapping idiots. I'm not sure where you get the idea that millions of them want to "Destroy our way of life"

I think you are wrong a small percenatge of 10% worldwide would be equal to 100 million. 10% of the 2.3 million Muslims in America is a number worth noting -- the majority want peace like you and I, but if 19 could cause 911 -- 230,000 could have a pretty good impact in a non-frontal attack. Hell 1000 that are willing to act could have a huge impact. Millions do want to destroy your way of life and mine. Pew research (not a conservative think tank by any stretch – look it up if you have the time) indicated that in America that 26% of Muslim young men in America felt that it was acceptable to kill civilians here to push political/religious change. In the same polls given in several countries there were similar percentages across the world (with higher percentages in some prominently Muslim countries.) As there are a billion Muslims in the world it is not a stretch to say millions want to destroy our way of life I think that even using conservative numbers of 10% that are “radicalized” would equate to 100 million. It is the truth, and built into the extreme ideology. I hope that after Bush is gone that the threate will be seen more clearly by the left and right. I dont have many great solutions for what I see if a threat, but I do know that unless the problem is seen it cant be dealt with.


We should be concerned about any and all religious NUTS! The Christian right scares me as much as the Muslims. If the Christian right wouldn't have jumped out of their closet to vote for Bush's anti gay and anti abortion views, we wouldn't be in such a mess right now. They (christians and muslims) both want everyone to believe as they do (one preaches hatred the other preaches intolerance). They both can't get it in to their thick ****ing skulls that there are actually humans who can think on their own and don't need to follow blindly regardless of outcome.
Then you have the Jews who seem to think the world owes them for eternity. **** that too, get the **** over it allready!

[Bob]

BTW, what is our "way of life?"

Answer this question, Bob. There are millions of Muslims in India and yet we haven't seen any Indian Muslims involved in any attacks against the U.S. or India. Given that there are hundreds of thousands of Muslim Indians living in Europe and the U.S., why is that?

Just because it does not ideologicly "fit" please dont see this as a Bush issue -- it is much bigger. Also know that I understand that most Muslims are peace loving. But also understand that the Muslims are attacking folks in India too -- see the CNN article below. Understand that I really dont care if you are a Dem, or a Repub, or an I, or if you are smart enough to just see yourself first as an American and Bronco's fan I think that those who are more secular in thier thinking are inclined to misunderstand Christains here in America -- it is making some sense to me that they woudl be even more dismissive of a faith they have had little contact with thousands of miles away.

MUMBAI, India (CNN) -- A series of seven explosions killed at least 174 people on crowded commuter trains and stations Tuesday evening in the Indian financial capital of Mumbai, police said.

Officials said at least 464 people were injured in the blasts in the city's western suburbs as commuters made their way home. All seven blasts came within an 11-minute span, between 6:24 and 6:35 p.m. (12:54 and 1:05 p.m. GMT).

Analysts are comparing the attack with the mass transit bombings in Madrid in 2004 and London last year, saying they all involved a series of mutiple blasts and were well-coordinated.

There was some confusion about the number of dead and injured as information was compiled from hospitals and explosion sites in Mumbai, the west Indian seaport previously called Bombay.

"There still are bodies being recovered," said Pooja Saxena, with the International Federation of the Red Cross, speaking early Wednesday.

CNN-IBN correspondent Jency Jacob was aboard one of the trains during the attacks.

"People started running helter-skelter and started jumping from the train," Jacob said. (Watch rescuers pull victims from wrecked trains -- 1:59)

"When I jumped from the train, I saw that the first-class compartment was totally ripped apart and people were hanging from the train. There are some people who were thrown out from the train and they were lying on the track, bleeding completely." (Read a full account of the horror Jacob witnessed)

One person was arrested in New Delhi in police raids after the explosions, reported CNN-IBN, CNN's sister network, but there's been no claim of responsibility for the attacks.

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh urged calm and said the attacks were "shocking and cowardly attempts to spread a feeling of fear and terror."

"I reiterate our commitment to fighting terror in all its forms," he said in a written statement.

U.S. officials said suspicion fell on two Islamic terrorist groups whose focus has been on the disputed territory of Kashmir -- Lashkar-e-Tayyiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed.

Both groups have been implicated in attacks that involved coordinated bombings during peak times in India, the officials said.

It may be no coincidence that the attacks occurred just ahead of the Group of Eight summit of world leaders that begins Saturday in St. Petersburg, Russia, said Sajjan Gohel, director of international security for the Asia-Pacific Foundation.

Last year's July 7 terror bombings in London that killed 52 people came as UK Prime Minister Tony Blair was hosting the G8 summit in Scotland and one day after London was awarded the 2012 Olympics, Gohel told CNN International.

Both the 2005 London bombings and the 2004 Madrid bombings, that killed 191 people, were directed against rush hour commuters on mass transit systems.

"This time again, they're (terrorists) trying to show that they are live, active. They want attention, they want the focus," Gohel said. "It was a coordinated, multiple, simultaneous mass casualty atrocity. This is the hallmark of a powerful transnational group."

Gohel noted that at least one of Tuesday's attacks targeted a first-class commuter car, and police were looking at that carriage to see if it might yield clues. The names of those aboard would have been known beforehand -- as opposed to regular computers.

Dana Dillon, a senior policy analyst in the Heritage Foundation's Asian Studies Center, said if Indians believed a Pakistani militant group was behind the bombings, it could disrupt two and a half years of dialogue between the countries that has led to a de-escalation of troops and other positive moves.

"If this terrorist attack messes that up, it could be catastrophic to the region," Dillon said.

'Limbs lying everywhere'
The blasts hit trains or platforms at the Khar, Mahim, Matunga, Jogeshwari, Borivili and Bhayander stations. The seventh explosion struck a train between the Khar and Santacruz stations, a police official told CNN-IBN.

Police also found and defused another bomb at the Borivili station, according to CNN-IBN. (Train map)

Video footage from a train station showed people in bloodstained clothes receiving medical treatment, while others were carrying victims and some lying motionless near railroad tracks. Windows of a train appeared to be spattered with blood.

At least one train was split in half.

Jacob said after his train was attacked he moved toward the back of the train where he "could see some explosives, some pipes that were falling down. The police were investigating that. It seems to be that the explosive was packed off in pipes and kept in the first class men's compartment."

A CNN-IBN correspondent who was on one of the trains said it was leaving a station when the blast occurred. People jumped and were killed as the train hit them.

"Limbs [are] lying everywhere, bodies [were] cleared from the tracks by local business owners who rushed from their shops," the correspondent said.

Another CNN-IBN correspondent reported seeing 15 bodies at the Matunga station.

People living almost two miles (three kilometers) away from the Borivili station said they heard the blast.

The Western Railway system -- which 4.5 million people use daily -- was shut down and Mumbai's subway system put on high alert after the blasts. Police in the capital of New Delhi also heightened security.

Airports across India were put on high alert, too.

Blasts appear to follow terrorist pattern
U.S. officials said the blasts followed a pattern of initiated by the two main Islamic Kashmiri separatist terrorist groups.

Kashmiri separatists were blamed for twin car-bombings that killed 53 people in Mumbai in August 2003 as well as an attack on the Indian parliament in Delhi in 2001.

In March 1993, more than 250 people were killed when at least 13 bombs were detonated around Mumbai. That attack followed a wave of fighting between India's Hindu and Muslim communities.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf strongly condemned the attacks, and a statement released by his country's Foreign Ministry called them a "despicable act of terrorism."

"Terrorism is the bane of our times and it must be condemned, rejected and countered effectively and comprehensively," the statement said.

Earlier Tuesday, a grenade attack in Indian-controlled Kashmir killed at least four people. Authorities suspect militants are responsible for that attack on a minibus in Srinagar. There was no immediate indication of a connection to the Mumbai blasts.

Indian Home Minister Shivraj Patil said the government had some advance knowledge that such an attack might take place. "What we didn't have was the place and the time," Patil said.

[BroncoBuff]

I believe the radical Islamist is the biggest threat to the left and right in America – as the Islamists don’t want to win an election, they (millions) want to destroy our way of life.
I believe radical Islam is a law-enforcement oriented threat that has little if any impact on our freedoms - our way of life. There are many threats that are far more immediate and personal to everyday Americans. For example, I think the Bush/Cheney administration is a far worse threat to our freedoms - our way of life.




Kinda hard to imagine two people could disagree so completely, isn't it?

[Bob]

BTW, what is our "way of life?"

Answer this question, Bob. There are millions of Muslims in India and yet we haven't seen any Indian Muslims involved in any attacks against the U.S. or India. Given that there are hundreds of thousands of Muslim Indians living in Europe and the U.S., why is that?

As far as "our way of life" that means something different for everyone in America, but I think that our freedom to believe in teh God of our choice or not believe in anything would be central. I think that having our kids go to school with our fear, would be another.

[epicSocialism4tw]

We should be concerned about any and all religious NUTS! The Christian right scares me as much as the Muslims. If the Christian right wouldn't have jumped out of their closet to vote for Bush's anti gay and anti abortion views, we wouldn't be in such a mess right now. They (christians and muslims) both want everyone to believe as they do (one preaches hatred the other preaches intolerance). They both can't get it in to their thick ****ing skulls that there are actually humans who can think on their own and don't need to follow blindly regardless of outcome.
Then you have the Jews who seem to think the world owes them for eternity. **** that too, get the **** over it allready!

Wow.

Bigotry is alive and well in America.

[Bob]

We should be concerned about any and all religious NUTS! The Christian right scares me as much as the Muslims. If the Christian right wouldn't have jumped out of their closet to vote for Bush's anti gay and anti abortion views, we wouldn't be in such a mess right now. They (christians and muslims) both want everyone to believe as they do (one preaches hatred the other preaches intolerance). They both can't get it in to their thick ****ing skulls that there are actually humans who can think on their own and don't need to follow blindly regardless of outcome.
Then you have the Jews who seem to think the world owes them for eternity. **** that too, get the **** over it allready!

Well Rosie I'm not sure how to respond to that except to ask that you please hear me out. I think that may be because of my vote? Or that I may dare to express that I may not embrace all of the ideals that the secularists espouse? I think that you were locked up with someone like me that you might label an “extreme Christian” I might irritate the hell out of you and say some things you don’t want to hear, but I hope there is a better chance that you would come to respect me – or at least that would be my hope. I would not try to convert through force, I likely would not try to convert you at all – I gotta live and let live ya know? The basic tenants that most “extreme Christians” try to live up to the golden rule, we fall short and we know it, but that still is the gold standard. Our basic tenants have to respect your right to believe or not believe. I am not justified in killing you, or hurting you, in fact I would be in your corner to protect your right to life and liberty. If your home was flooded I would send semi-truck loads of food and supplies (which I did contribute to) in New Orleans regardless of issues of faith. Now, the basic tenants of the RADICAL Muslim believes (with justification found in the Koran) that one is allowed to strike off the head of the infidel – that you would be you, and me, (or America the great Satan) or anyone who doesn’t embrace Allah and renounce there former faith (or lack of it.) So if you are just as threatened by me, it may be because you see yourself first as a Dem, and cant see how we are connected, and how I would be more willing to give to you than take away. We can disagree and vote differently without being enemies I hope.

[BroncoBuff]

I have an inkling that more people have won lotteries in the last 7 years than were killed on 9/11.

The threat of terrorism is almost ZERO to 99% of Americans.

[BroncoInferno]

I have an inkling that more people have won lotteries in the last 7 years than were killed on 9/11.

The threat of terrorism is almost ZERO to 99% of Americans.

There is an infinitely greater likelihood of an American being killed in their car than in a terrorist attack. Are you terrififed of your car, too, Bob? Proportionally speaking, you ought to be.

[epicSocialism4tw]

There is an infinitely greater likelihood of an American being killed in their car than in a terrorist attack. Are you terrififed of your car, too, Bob? Proportionally speaking, you ought to be.

Well, remind us not to mourn you if you are killed by terrorists since the possibility of it happening is so small.

We'll just say "oh well...it wasnt us this time".

[BroncoInferno]

Well, remind us not to mourn you if you are killed by terrorists since the possibility of it happening is so small.

We'll just say "oh well...it wasnt us this time".

Don't be stupid. No one is saying "do nothing" or "don't care." We're saying the response should be proportional to the threat.

[REB]

We should be concerned about any and all religious NUTS! The Christian right scares me as much as the Muslims. If the Christian right wouldn't have jumped out of their closet to vote for Bush's anti gay and anti abortion views, we wouldn't be in such a mess right now. They (christians and muslims) both want everyone to believe as they do (one preaches hatred the other preaches intolerance). They both can't get it in to their thick ****ing skulls that there are actually humans who can think on their own and don't need to follow blindly regardless of outcome.
Then you have the Jews who seem to think the world owes them for eternity. **** that too, get the **** over it allready!


Wow! just Wow ::)

[epicSocialism4tw]

Don't be stupid. No one is saying "do nothing" or "don't care." We're saying the response should be proportional to the threat.

We have just been introduced to the threat.

How about a little foresight?

[Bronco Bob]

We have just been introduced to the threat.

How about a little foresight?

We were also introduced to the threat of bridges collapsing too.
But that has been quickly forgotten because repairing bridges
already built doesn't have the political sex appeal of waging war
on 3rd world countries, never mind they weren't even involved
in the terrorist attacks.

[Spider]

There is an infinitely greater likelihood of an American being killed in their car than in a terrorist attack. Are you terrififed of your car, too, Bob? Proportionally speaking, you ought to be.

well if this helps , I am terrified of people in cars ....... I come ot believe everyone of them are christians , cause the way they drive , they are not afraid of dying ;D

[Rohirrim]

Just because it does not ideologicly "fit" please dont see this as a Bush issue -- it is much bigger. Also know that I understand that most Muslims are peace loving. But also understand that the Muslims are attacking folks in India too -- see the CNN article below. Understand that I really dont care if you are a Dem, or a Repub, or an I, or if you are smart enough to just see yourself first as an American and Bronco's fan I think that those who are more secular in thier thinking are inclined to misunderstand Christains here in America -- it is making some sense to me that they woudl be even more dismissive of a faith they have had little contact with thousands of miles away.

MUMBAI, India (CNN) -- A series of seven explosions killed at least 174 people on crowded commuter trains and stations Tuesday evening in the Indian financial capital of Mumbai, police said...

These attacks in India are specifically concerned with the Kashmir conflict and have nothing to do with Al Queda attacks aimed at the West.

As far as our "way of life" goes, that was a trick question. Our way of life is defined clearly in our documents, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution. We are allowing George Bush to change our Constitution because, instead of standing up against the terrorists and flatly stating "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" he has told us to duct tape ourselves into our houses, thereby spreading the message of fear that is the terrorist chief weapon against us.

The attacks on the Constitution are also being carried out by the Christian Right who want to control women's bodies (an ancient Judaic, patriarchal principle), put the Ten Commandments in our public buildings and force all of our children to recite the prayers of their religion. At numerous points in our history, they have also wanted to censor our arts, our literature and our films. And now, as other posters have noted, they want to impose a religious litmus test on our political candidates in direct contradiction of our "way of life."

There is also a huge contigent of this Christian Right who believes that we should invade the ME, fight a final battle with the forces of darkness in Syria (a little town called Armageddon), and return Israel to its biblical borders. Why? To usher in the Second Coming. And if you don't think their numbers are huge, then you aren't aware of sales of the End Times books. But of course, it's the Muslim extremists who are the loopy ones.

Those "end timers" probably represent the same percentage of Christians as those Muslims who believe in the return of their Messiah. Maybe we could just take all their whackos and put them on an island with all of our whackos and let them have at it. Then the world might actually find some peace.

[BroncoBuff]

Sad. Reactionaries and fear-mongers.


I'll bet you and I are alot alike in many ways, Bob ... we probably agree on lots of things other than politics. I remain ceaselessy amazed at how two people that are alike can differ so forcefully on politics and social issues. That said, let me be clear: I believe what me and Roh and Spyder have been saying in here - I believe it like I know my own name.

[Spider]

Bob if I can put it this way ..... I dont live in fear , I wont surrender my freedoms cause some terrorist is pissed off , Ididnt want to surrender my freedom cause of the russians , I will be damned if some terrorist will scare me ,into giving up my rights , screw that I just as soon be dead , if you want a taste of giving up freedom is like , spend a weekend in jail .....
now are there sleeper cells in America right now ? I believe so , but those bastards should never have the power to scare us out of our freedoms , she should be vigil , but never ever give up our freedoms ....
alot of Americans died fighting defending this country in WW2 , so you and me could enjoy freedom , I will be damned if I throw their sacrifice away cause some camel humping asshole is pissed .......

[TailgateNut]

We were also introduced to the threat of bridges collapsing too.
But that has been quickly forgotten because repairing bridges
already built doesn't have the political sex appeal of waging war
on 3rd world countries, never mind they weren't even involved
in the terrorist attacks.

The reason it isn't as appealing is that Halliburton is currently to busy making Gazillions in Iraq.

[TailgateNut]

Those "end timers" probably represent the same percentage of Christians as those Muslims who believe in the return of their Messiah. Maybe we could just take all their whackos and put them on an island with all of our whackos and let them have at it. Then the world might actually find some peace.

Now there's an idea I can back 100%!

[Odysseus]

I know it won't do any good telling you this, Bob, but you are part of the problem. The fact that you buy this crap and then regurgitate it is exactly what the Bush cabal wants out of you. You are the 30% that Bush keeps addressing, while ignoring the rest of us. You are the 30% that keeps us in Iraq. You are the 30% that buys the lies. You are the 30% that enables Bush to attack our Constitution.

Try to let this seep into some little crack in that thick load of bs you're carrying around: We attacked them. We started it in the 1920s and we've been doing it ever since. Every president and every British prime minister since the 1920s (in the name of giant oil corporations ) has been attacking the Muslim world and stealing their oil for almost a hundred years. We overthrew their democratically elected leaders. We set up the dictators. We built the prisons. We trained their secret police. We taught them how to torture their own people. Like many historians now admit, 911 was born in the prisons of Egypt. That's the truth. That's a fact.

It's bad enough that we have a President who thinks the best policy is to lie through his teeth, but the worse part is that 30% of Americans who allow him to keep doing it.

This is straight out of Syriana and yes everything you are saying is true but this place makes me completely understand genocide. I don't hate Arabs, Iraqi or any one particular people but these guys ain't like us. All the **** we started over here is going to come around and bite us I promise you that. It might take five years. It might take 40 but these guys ain't like us. We are now like Israel in their eyes and the more mess we don't unscrew the bigger the bill will come.

Staying in Iraq isn't the answer. Leaving Iraq isn't the answer. There is only one answer and that is the Iraqi people have to stand up and ask us to leave. The fact we would leave on Blackwater is a really sour note. We continue making really realloy stupid mistakes.

[Rohirrim]

This is straight out of Syriana and yes everything you are saying is true but this place makes me completely understand genocide. I don't hate Arabs, Iraqi or any one particular people but these guys ain't like us. All the **** we started over here is going to come around and bite us I promise you that. It might take five years. It might take 40 but these guys ain't like us. We are now like Israel in their eyes and the more mess we don't unscrew the bigger the bill will come.

Staying in Iraq isn't the answer. Leaving Iraq isn't the answer. There is only one answer and that is the Iraqi people have to stand up and ask us to leave. The fact we would leave on Blackwater is a really sour note. We continue making really realloy stupid mistakes.

History has shown that they will only **** with us if we continue to stick our noses in their business. As long as we are there, they will join together to attack us. If we aren't there, they go back to fighting each other, which is what they've been doing for a couple of thousand years.

[TailgateNut]

This is straight out of Syriana and yes everything you are saying is true but this place makes me completely understand genocide. I don't hate Arabs, Iraqi or any one particular people but these guys ain't like us. All the **** we started over here is going to come around and bite us I promise you that. It might take five years. It might take 40 but these guys ain't like us. We are now like Israel in their eyes and the more mess we don't unscrew the bigger the bill will come.

Staying in Iraq isn't the answer. Leaving Iraq isn't the answer. There is only one answer and that is the Iraqi people have to stand up and ask us to leave. The fact we would leave on Blackwater is a really sour note. We continue making really realloy stupid mistakes.


I just wish "ol' dumb****" in the WH would have thought about the consequences before sending our troops over to that hellhole!

...and what's so baffling is that we still have a few numbskulls who think if we fight them there we wont fight them here. We're just pissing them off more each and every day we occupy their land, and shove our culture and ways of life down thier throats.

I'd be pissed if they came here and did that to us, and I would'nt rest until I was able to avenge their actions. I'd spend my last breath trying to kill every damn one of them.

[Bob]

Sad. Reactionaries and fear-mongers.


I'll bet you and I are alot alike in many ways, Bob ... we probably agree on lots of things other than politics. I remain ceaselessy amazed at how two people that are alike can differ so forcefully on politics and social issues. That said, let me be clear: I believe what me and Roh and Spyder have been saying in here - I believe it like I know my own name.

I would hope so, you seem like a decent person. If it is any consolation, I hope your viewpoint on this issue is the correct one.

What is hard in the calculating the likelihood of future terrorist events -- is that we have had only two big attacks on or soil in the past 100 years. One difference in the level of threat in my mind is the nature of how so few a number can cause so great a harm if they are willing to act. Extremists have been around since the dawn of humanity, but they couldn’t bring about the level of economical pain, or the number of deaths as the technology was not there to do it. I think that the facts backup that there are indeed millions that want to go after civilians here in America -- most are thousands of miles away taking shots at our troops (and we them.) That is a real debate that one can have about what to do next in that conflict, but what I think is naive and dangerous is to not understand the motivating factors behind hatred that is rooted in faith --- there are some that are more threatened by ME than a person who would be inclined to lop of their head? That radical is in Deerborn, Michigan as well as in Bagdad. I guess Daniel Pearl had that mindset as well. I think it is incredibly sad that there are some on the Rosie fringes that are so filled with hate and conspiracy that they would lump me in this same group that are killing our American soldiers. Maybe this is one affect of a two-party system that is content to divide the populace -- for political gain. I pray that I am wrong on the threat from radical Islam, but if one does study what those on the growing Islamic fringe want to do, its hard not to believe in their own words. One difference that is clear to me between 99% of those Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, vs those of a radical Islamic perspective is Islamist justifies conversion through force of the sword. 99% of the rest of religious world gave up this notion several hundred years ago -- I believe that at minimum there are 10% of the world’s Islamic population that has this mentality. We can argue about how to best deal with it (i.e. diplomacy and pacification, force, border control, restricting access to nuclear armaments, etc) But the staring point is believing in the words of those who say they want death to the great Satan, and the little Satan (Israel.)

Until Beerslug and others with their mentality trust me to the level where they know that I may be evil because I believe in God, but I don’t see him as the enemy, but as an American -- then that is why this is such a serious concern of mine. I think Spider gets it. A nation divided against itself cant stand, and in Europe I see (for some different reasons) and similar unfolding of their culture under the growing populations on Muslims in their own country that don’t want to assimilate. When the majority pacify, and the minority take the concession and demand one more – guess who is winning? How would you like to be a liberal gay in Amsterdam? Guess what the most popular name for new children born there is? Mohamed -- guess what the percentage is right now of Muslim to non Muslim is right now (in the urban areas?) 40% are Muslim right now, and they are the only ones having children. (1.38 children per couple for native Europeans vs. 3.5 for Muslims) There are neighborhoods that are already off limits for the secularist gay in Amsterdam – they are loosing territory not through war, but through fear, demographics and political correctness.

The population numbers are vastly different here -- I get it -- so the conversion of the West to Islam by force will not happen here -- they wanting to find another angle -- one of those is economic collapse – which is what Osama has stated many times.

[Bob]

Bob if I can put it this way ..... I dont live in fear , I wont surrender my freedoms cause some terrorist is pissed off , Ididnt want to surrender my freedom cause of the russians , I will be damned if some terrorist will scare me ,into giving up my rights , screw that I just as soon be dead , if you want a taste of giving up freedom is like , spend a weekend in jail .....
now are there sleeper cells in America right now ? I believe so , but those bastards should never have the power to scare us out of our freedoms , she should be vigil , but never ever give up our freedoms ....
alot of Americans died fighting defending this country in WW2 , so you and me could enjoy freedom , I will be damned if I throw their sacrifice away cause some camel humping a-hole is pissed .......

On some ground we have as simular take...

Freedom vs feeling safe are complex issues for me. There are some who would disagree with you that there are any sleeper cells -- and no threat what-so-ever and think their freedoms are directly violated by waiting longer to fly -- so I am still trying to figure out what is reasonable -- understanding that there are some in the government that would be willing to stir up fear for the express purpose of taking away our freedom and there are some in our country who want to kill civilians to bring about the Madhi.

[Bob]

History has shown that they will only **** with us if we continue to stick our noses in their business. As long as we are there, they will join together to attack us. If we aren't there, they go back to fighting each other, which is what they've been doing for a couple of thousand years.

911

I guess your implying that we caused 911? and that the many conflicts around the world (with Muslims in the middle of the majority of them) is becuase people keep screwing with THEM? That if we just shut up they will not burn hundreds of cars in the streets of France, that if we will just not pubish certain types of cartoons, that we just let them impliment shiria law...

[Rohirrim]

911

I guess your implying that we caused 911? and that the many conflicts around the world (with Muslims in the middle of the majority of them) is becuase people keep screwing with THEM? That if we just shut up they will not burn hundreds of cars in the streets of France, that if we will just not pubish certain types of cartoons, that we just let them impliment shiria law...

I should continue to post while you continue to ignore everything I say? What's the point? You can just accept everything Bush and the neocons tell you, or you can get educated. Here's a start:
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOjsXcHQL._AA240_.jpg
Your choice.

[Bob]

I should continue to post while you continue to ignore everything I say? What's the point? You can just accept everything Bush and the neocons tell you, or you can get educated. Here's a start:
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vOjsXcHQL._AA240_.jpg
Your choice.

The facts are my corner -- what issues have I not addressed? -- point one or two out that I have ignored - if I don’t know I will state it -- I am not sure if you will lend me that same courtesy. By responding by inserting "Bush" into almost every line it is clear that your thoughts may be clouded, and I hope that you may see this issue beyond the scope of politics. Political identifications are petty considerations comparatively.
Furthermore I have made a dozen points to your one about why the threat is real, which few of you have attempted to negate (nor can they logically be dismissed based on demographics, or on what the 10% is saying they want to do, and what they are actually doing in many parts of the world.) You cannot even consider my notions or the facts that underpin them -- because of political connections -- I can hate Bush for my own reasons, but not insert him in every corner of my new anti-ideology. If I may be right about the simple notion that there may be a threat that folks are ignoring, it does not mean that the Iraq war was a great thing. It does not mean that conservatism is better; it does not mean that the “right to choose” is wrong, or that Romney would make a better Pres than Hillary- it should be compartmentalized – just like issues of the border. The dots (facts) are all there – its how one connects them to determine if a threat is real or not. 911 did not “change the world we live in” -- in only woke a few of us up that the world had “changed along time ago.” Go back to sleep if you wish – for all of our sakes I hope you are right and we can all sleepwalk through the next 40 years without incident. I think you are crazy for thinking that way, and that your sleep endangers us all, but sleep on. What radical notions have I called on for folks to see? A few simple ones: 1. that we are in a much larger war not against a terrorist tactics, but against an ideology – we just don’t know it yet – they sure as hell do, and declared war before 911. 2. That the threat of Radical Islam is real, and makes the “intolerance” of Jimmy Farwell look like the second coming of Sesame Street in comparison.

Peace out.

[mhgaffney]

I believe the radical Islamist is the biggest threat to the left and right in America – as the Islamists don’t want to win an election, they (millions) want to destroy our way of life. Now, most on the left do not believe this is a realistic fear (at least that is my impression.) I believe the President of Iran, when he says that he wants to hasten the Madhi’s return – which can only happen, once again by his own words when the “great Satan” (us) is destroyed. As the USA defenses are constructed to defend itself against cold war enemies from frontal attacks, we are very vulnerable. Yes I am concerned that there are 26% of the 2.3 million Muslims here in America already that feel that attacks against civilians is an acceptable approach to facilitate political or religious change.

The left do not understand issues of faith in general – they are more threatened by Christians – anyone else gets a free pass – and I don’t get it. Yesterday president Tom said there are “no gays” in Iran, and when asked about capital punishment for gays he said that “you have capital punishment as well” and gave examples of it – meanwhile people in the audience clapped – I heard the speech – freaking amazing – why were not gays incensed and protesting at Columbia, where was NOW? Women can be beaten for showing there hair in public. I don’t get that. I don’t see much of a difference between him and the Hitler of 32. So is it that there are many on the left that are just as threatened but believe diplomacy is the better/only path, or is it an issue that Christians vote in bigger blocks – so they are the short-term enemy?

What a bunch of crap.

I suggest you check out my book about early Christianity - and the gnostics -- before you make any more sweeping statements about "the left."

www.gnosticsecrets.com

I say this as a Christian and as a fiscally conservative inhabitant of the political left. The truth is that I'm so far left there is no word for what I am. I am beyond communist -- beyond anarchist even.

When pressed by those who want a more explicit description about my politics -- I answer that I am with Jesus, who was the original small "c" communist.

What did he say? Give away your gold, your silver, your property. And follow me. The problem with our world is that 99.99% of so called Christians have failed to take this simple message to heart.

And that includes this poster -- who thinks he knows something.

[alkemical]

The state of the current gov't is a greater threat to me and my freedoms than any "terrorist".

[TailgateNut]

The state of the current gov't is a greater threat to me and my freedoms than any "terrorist".


I'll second that "fear".:wiggle:

The enemy within can inflict much more harm than an outsider!

[Bob]

What a bunch of crap.

I suggest you check out my book about early Christianity - and the gnostics -- before you make any more sweeping statements about "the left."

www.gnosticsecrets.com

I say this as a Christian and as a fiscally conservative inhabitant of the political left. The truth is that I'm so far left there is no word for what I am. I am beyond communist -- beyond anarchist even.

When pressed by those who want a more explicit description about my politics -- I answer that I am with Jesus, who was the original small "c" communist.

What did he say? Give away your gold, your silver, your property. And follow me. The problem with our world is that 99.99% of so called Christians have failed to take this simple message to heart.

And that includes this poster -- who thinks he knows something.

Actually I love early Christian history. Erasmus (sp.) before 325 ad felt that the sudden explosion of the popularity of the gnostics only happened after the apostles who had the priesthood and authority from God, were murdered, and could not stomp out this fledgling apostate group -- but that was just his take... ;D

[Rohirrim]

The facts are my corner -- what issues have I not addressed? -- point one or two out that I have ignored - if I don’t know I will state it -- I am not sure if you will lend me that same courtesy. By responding by inserting "Bush" into almost every line it is clear that your thoughts may be clouded, and I hope that you may see this issue beyond the scope of politics. Political identifications are petty considerations comparatively.
Furthermore I have made a dozen points to your one about why the threat is real, which few of you have attempted to negate (nor can they logically be dismissed based on demographics, or on what the 10% is saying they want to do, and what they are actually doing in many parts of the world.) You cannot even consider my notions or the facts that underpin them -- because of political connections -- I can hate Bush for my own reasons, but not insert him in every corner of my new anti-ideology. If I may be right about the simple notion that there may be a threat that folks are ignoring, it does not mean that the Iraq war was a great thing. It does not mean that conservatism is better; it does not mean that the “right to choose” is wrong, or that Romney would make a better Pres than Hillary- it should be compartmentalized – just like issues of the border. The dots (facts) are all there – its how one connects them to determine if a threat is real or not. 911 did not “change the world we live in” -- in only woke a few of us up that the world had “changed along time ago.” Go back to sleep if you wish – for all of our sakes I hope you are right and we can all sleepwalk through the next 40 years without incident. I think you are crazy for thinking that way, and that your sleep endangers us all, but sleep on. What radical notions have I called on for folks to see? A few simple ones: 1. that we are in a much larger war not against a terrorist tactics, but against an ideology – we just don’t know it yet – they sure as hell do, and declared war before 911. 2. That the threat of Radical Islam is real, and makes the “intolerance” of Jimmy Farwell look like the second coming of Sesame Street in comparison.

Peace out.

What facts? You don't have any facts. You simply regurgitate the neocon bs - They hate us for our freedoms. They hate us for our culture. They hate us for our religion. What a load of crap.

They hate us because the people who oppress them are supported, and in many cases, installed by us. They see it is the power of the U.S. that props up their torturers. For a hundred years, we have been stealing their resources. We prop up Israel without question (and believe me, Israel has done many questionable things). It's no surprise that the Arab world sees every Palestinian house leveled by an American bulldozer as a crime.

You crack me up. Here's a part of the world that the U.S. and European powers have dominated and attacked for a hundred years and you think they hate us because of our freedoms? Ha!

Read the book. See where it started. See how it started. Bin Laden and especially Zawahiri are links in a direct chain from the prisons of Nasser in Egypt. Those prisons were built by us. The torturers in those prisons were taught by our CIA.

It's the simplest premise. It's almost biblical isn't it? Reap what you sow. We sowed the torture of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. We reaped 911. When we get our heads out of our asses, we will actually be able to end this war on terror. Until then, it will be just like the war on drugs. We will ignore the true causes and keep chasing after symptoms like a giant game of whack a mole.

[Bob]

What a bunch of crap.

I suggest you check out my book about early Christianity - and the gnostics -- before you make any more sweeping statements about "the left."

www.gnosticsecrets.com

I say this as a Christian and as a fiscally conservative inhabitant of the political left. The truth is that I'm so far left there is no word for what I am. I am beyond communist -- beyond anarchist even.

When pressed by those who want a more explicit description about my politics -- I answer that I am with Jesus, who was the original small "c" communist.

What did he say? Give away your gold, your silver, your property. And follow me. The problem with our world is that 99.99% of so called Christians have failed to take this simple message to heart.

And that includes this poster -- who thinks he knows something.

On a more serious note you are right about Christ constantly warning folks about the dangers of materialism -- and I am glad you have convictions. I would like to learn more about the group you mentioned.

In this world there are threats real and imagined. You and I are both extremes -- ideology has a way of tainting any and all facts to fit those constructs. I have to live (the best I can) and assume the best about Americans, not the worst – in part that is a choice based on experience – I am a cynic – but not to the degree that many are on this board. and those that demonize good people like what Move-on folks have been doing lately. Their actions make us all less safe and creates greater mistrust of the government (mostly for political gain) when there is too much mistrust it leads to an unwillingness to be governed (in even the basic ways needed) for all of us to live in peace with each other --that does lead to anarchy and eventually violence.

There is evil in the world -- you may see that evil in Bush or in a loathing of the USA? I think the Boy Scouts are pretty good, that the majority of Americans are hard working who don’t have time for whack-jobs like Rosie who hate what is at the core strength of what makes America strong. I see evil in those like Osama who recently requested and received from Islamic religious leader’s permission to kill 2 million American children. No, I don’t think those numbers will be hit, but like Beslan a couple of years ago, I am afraid the intention is there and plans are being worked out – and there has been some evidence to suggest it, as I have laid out in this threat and others. You have your ideas, and I mine about what is “real” – most of this information that I get are from sources like CNN, and official sources that I think have some credibility to the left and right not blogs (admittedly it is hard to trust the media when we are awash with misinformation.) Again, I believe that those who say they want us dead are not liars, I think that it is easy to do great harm to us in non-frontal attacks, and that we don’t take this threat seriously because we are too busy fighting each other about gay marriage, talking about Bush, or any number of distractions.

[Rohirrim]

I see evil in those like Osama who recently requested and received from Islamic religious leader’s permission to kill 2 million American children.
Here's a claim. Back it up.

[Bob]

What facts? You don't have any facts. You simply regurgitate the neocon bs - They hate us for our freedoms. They hate us for our culture. They hate us for our religion. What a load of crap.

They hate us because the people who oppress them are supported, and in many cases, installed by us. They see it is the power of the U.S. that props up their torturers. For a hundred years, we have been stealing their resources. We prop up Israel without question (and believe me, Israel has done many questionable things). It's no surprise that the Arab world sees every Palestinian house leveled by an American bulldozer as a crime.

You crack me up. Here's a part of the world that the U.S. and European powers have dominated and attacked for a hundred years and you think they hate us because of our freedoms? Ha!

Read the book. See where it started. See how it started. Bin Laden and especially Zawahiri are links in a direct chain from the prisons of Nasser in Egypt. Those prisons were built by us. The torturers in those prisons were taught by our CIA.

It's the simplest premise. It's almost biblical isn't it? Reap what you sow. We sowed the torture of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. We reaped 911. When we get our heads out of our asses, we will actually be able to end this war on terror. Until then, it will be just like the war on drugs. We will ignore the true causes and keep chasing after symptoms like a giant game of whack a mole.

Wow. Don’t think that I stated that they hate us because of our freedoms -- that is a Bush line. The easiest way to intellectually dismiss is the label and ignore. I think that hatred of us is NOT connected to our policies ONLY although I think that we have stirred up a hornet's next. The Muslim faith in its extreme version is about forcing others who are not of their brand of Islam to submit -- heck that is what the word "Islam" means. We could get a donkey (or anyone) in office who could pull out all of our troops, and fall prostrate on the ground, say we are sorry, and pay reparations -- we could continue in this mode for 20 years and there would be that 10% that will still want us dead – and will actively try to bring about the coming of their messiah through attacks against US civilians.

You express a good analogy about the whack a mole concept, if we continue to use a hammer to fix this problem we will continue to have similar problems. I am not sure of the solution, but I do think it does include taking those millions who want us dead at their word.

[Bob]

Here's a claim. Back it up.

Ok, I got this directly from CNN transcipts. I am not making this stuff up – Please be willing to hear the words and not dismiss me just because I am an “evil” conservative Christian. With four kids why the hell would I want to consider that this is even a possibility? WE ARE AMERICANS first and need to be aware of these issues regardless of political correctness or its implication.
Aired January 3, 2005 - 9:30 ET

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR:
HEMMER: Let me go to a different topic that deals directly with children on a different subject, with the threat of al Qaeda. You wrote in the "San Francisco Chronicle" over the weekend, and quoting now, "Are U.S. children potential terror targets? While such a notion is almost impossible to contemplate, evidence increasingly suggests that U.S. intelligence efforts must be alert to this horrific possibility." Why do you believe that there is a threat against American children as it relates to al Qaeda?

REDLENER: Shortly after 9/11 there was an al Qaeda document discovered, written by one of Osama bin Laden's chief lieutenants, that described that in order to get retribution for perceived trauma that the United States had assumingly had caused, that 4 million Americans, including 2 million American children, would have to be killed. And I was very concerned about that. And sort of watching events since then, as we saw the attacks in Beslan, Russia, for example, which, although they were Chechnyan rebels, had very strong al Qaeda connections.

There were several in thwarted attacks attempted on schools in Singapore -- American schools in Singapore and in Indonesia. And then, just a few months ago in Iraq, an insurgent was caught with school layouts and emergency plans for schools in five American states. So, you know, I don't want to be alarmist about that, I'm just concerned that we need to be paying attention.

HEMMER: That takes me to my next question. An obvious one. Are you being an alarmist or is there more evidence other than just the letter that you just mentioned?

HEDLENER: Well, it's the letter plus these thwarted attacks, plus the Beslan attack. There's nothing really we need to do other than to make sure our schools are sufficiently prepared for any kind of emergency, No. 1. And No. 2, that the intelligence community is sufficiently aware of an alert to this possibility. It's horrific, but it's one of those things that we just need to make sure that we are paying enough attention to.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security. Again, thank the doctor for being with us earlier today.

[Rohirrim]

Wow. Don’t think that I stated that they hate us because of our freedoms -- that is a Bush line. The easiest way to intellectually dismiss is the label and ignore. I think that hatred of us is NOT connected to our policies ONLY although I think that we have stirred up a hornet's next. The Muslim faith in its extreme version is about forcing others who are not of their brand of Islam to submit -- heck that is what the word "Islam" means. We could get a donkey (or anyone) in office who could pull out all of our troops, and fall prostrate on the ground, say we are sorry, and pay reparations -- we could continue in this mode for 20 years and there would be that 10% that will still want us dead – and will actively try to bring about the coming of their messiah through attacks against US civilians.

You express a good analogy about the whack a mole concept, if we continue to use a hammer to fix this problem we will continue to have similar problems. I am not sure of the solution, but I do think it does include taking those millions who want us dead at their word.

"Islam" means "one who submits to God will find peace." Islam is no different than Christianity in that it can be made to say almost anything you want it to say. Throughout history, look at what Christians have made the Bible say to back up all sorts of heinous deeds? The key is not to believe that you can get rid of all the fringe whackos, either here or abroad. You can't. The key is to dry up the conditions that allow the whackos to recruit new members.

Who said anything about surrendering and lying prostate and paying them off? That's what the Saudis are doing. It hasn't worked for them. Study this: There are no Muslims from India joining Al Queda and attacking the U.S. Why? When you answer that question, you solve the terrorism problem. Armies are not going to solve this problem.

[Rohirrim]

Ok, I got this directly from CNN transcipts. I am not making this stuff up – Please be willing to hear the words and not dismiss me just because I am an “evil” conservative Christian. With four kids why the hell would I want to consider that this is even a possibility? WE ARE AMERICANS first and need to be aware of these issues regardless of political correctness or its implication.
Aired January 3, 2005 - 9:30 ET

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR:
HEMMER: Let me go to a different topic that deals directly with children on a different subject, with the threat of al Qaeda. You wrote in the "San Francisco Chronicle" over the weekend, and quoting now, "Are U.S. children potential terror targets? While such a notion is almost impossible to contemplate, evidence increasingly suggests that U.S. intelligence efforts must be alert to this horrific possibility." Why do you believe that there is a threat against American children as it relates to al Qaeda?

REDLENER: Shortly after 9/11 there was an al Qaeda document discovered, written by one of Osama bin Laden's chief lieutenants, that described that in order to get retribution for perceived trauma that the United States had assumingly had caused, that 4 million Americans, including 2 million American children, would have to be killed. And I was very concerned about that. And sort of watching events since then, as we saw the attacks in Beslan, Russia, for example, which, although they were Chechnyan rebels, had very strong al Qaeda connections.

There were several in thwarted attacks attempted on schools in Singapore -- American schools in Singapore and in Indonesia. And then, just a few months ago in Iraq, an insurgent was caught with school layouts and emergency plans for schools in five American states. So, you know, I don't want to be alarmist about that, I'm just concerned that we need to be paying attention.

HEMMER: That takes me to my next question. An obvious one. Are you being an alarmist or is there more evidence other than just the letter that you just mentioned?

HEDLENER: Well, it's the letter plus these thwarted attacks, plus the Beslan attack. There's nothing really we need to do other than to make sure our schools are sufficiently prepared for any kind of emergency, No. 1. And No. 2, that the intelligence community is sufficiently aware of an alert to this possibility. It's horrific, but it's one of those things that we just need to make sure that we are paying enough attention to.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security. Again, thank the doctor for being with us earlier today.

So, who's the speaker and what's his expertise?

[Bob]

So, who's the speaker and what's his expertise?

Do your own search regarding this obvious liar planted by those right of center folks at CNN.

[Bob]

"Islam" means "one who submits to God will find peace." Islam is no different than Christianity in that it can be made to say almost anything you want it to say. Throughout history, look at what Christians have made the Bible say to back up all sorts of heinous deeds? The key is not to believe that you can get rid of all the fringe whackos, either here or abroad. You can't. The key is to dry up the conditions that allow the whackos to recruit new members.

Who said anything about surrendering and lying prostate and paying them off? That's what the Saudis are doing. It hasn't worked for them. Study this: There are no Muslims from India joining Al Queda and attacking the U.S. Why? When you answer that question, you solve the terrorism problem. Armies are not going to solve this problem.

I am not sure of this last part but am willing to learn something new on the topic -- I doubt that you are open to considering additional ideas, but in truth -- regarding India I have read reports of terrorist acts, but do not know the dyamics behind the different groups there. There may be some lessons to learn there?

[Rohirrim]

Do your own search regarding this obvious liar planted by those right of center folks at CNN.

There are two different names for the speaker, neither of which comes up in a search.

[Bob]

There are two different names for the speaker, neither of which comes up in a search.

I am not sure if I have the time to teach you how to use Google, so here is the web address -- it is about one page down -- as it is a transcript it may not be cleaned up, and thus the name differences.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0501/03/ltm.02.html

[Cito Pelon]

One of the main tenets of Mohammedanism is convert all people, by peaceful means first, by the sword if necessary. If one views the media carefully, one will see this attitude stated over, and over, and over again by the radical Mohammedans.

The radicals are the problem, because they will kill any fellow Mohammedan and their whole family that doesn't buy into their radical view. They're fanatics, the radicals. The object is to eliminate the radicals.

[W*GS]

So, who's the speaker and what's his expertise?

According to

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0501/03/ltm.02.html

the guy is Dr. Irwin Redlener, National Center for Disaster Preparedness at Columbia University.

"Hedlener" is a typo.

The letter he wrote to the San Francisco Chronicle is at

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/02/EDGT0AJ7JN1.DTL&hw=redlener&sn=002&sc=563

[Bob]

According to

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0501/03/ltm.02.html

the guy is Dr. Irwin Redlener, National Center for Disaster Preparedness at Columbia University.

"Hedlener" is a typo.

The letter he wrote to the San Francisco Chronicle is at

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/01/02/EDGT0AJ7JN1.DTL&hw=redlener&sn=002&sc=563

Damn, I wish he wasnt from Columbia University, now my whole augument has been shot down. :welcome: That bastion of Neocons.