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View Full Version : The Defense Is Soft.


RhymesayersDU
09-23-2007, 07:54 PM
Hey, it's another opinion on today's debacle. Who woulda thought?

goldengopher1976
09-23-2007, 07:56 PM
Can Champ play DT?

OrangeShadow
09-23-2007, 07:58 PM
biggest reason was the Linebackers not being able to cover those 15 yard routes

Kaylore
09-23-2007, 08:01 PM
biggest reason was the Linebackers not being able to cover those 15 yard routes

Yup. Ian Gold was regularly seen running in the tight end's wake. DJ also really struggled to fill a gap and was guessing out there. He needs to just fly to his gap and hold his own.

GoBroncos0838
09-23-2007, 08:05 PM
On the commercial breaks, I caught the Oakland / Cleveland game... G. Warren was a beast out there. He was stuffing the hole and putting pressure on the QB... why did we trade him? He would have been the best player on our line this year! (Next to DOOM!)

bloodsunday
09-23-2007, 08:09 PM
So is the offensive line. I think the psyche of the entire team is soft as well. That's why mistakes start to compound -- e.g. fumbling at the worst moment.

wolf754life
09-23-2007, 08:14 PM
charmin soft, rice has no heart, adams is too lazy, gold is a midget, teams love smashing us in the face, right in the ****ing face, the D is small and full of pussies!

sgbfan
09-23-2007, 08:37 PM
And the toughest player we have on Defense was out for most of the game. . . I think the Defense really missed Lynch a lot today, especially all those runs by Gerrard. I think Gerrard's running lost us the game, and made our Defense look really bad.

RhymesayersDU
09-23-2007, 08:38 PM
How many times were there broken tackles? How many times did Fred Jones bull into somebody (or multiple people) and push them forward for extra yards? More than I'd like to recount. But it happened a lot. Very disheartening.

telluride
09-23-2007, 08:54 PM
Yep, Warren had a sack and a forced fumble. I'm still not sure why we thought he'd be of no use to us, even in a rotation.

bloodsunday
09-23-2007, 09:08 PM
Yep, Warren had a sack and a forced fumble. I'm still not sure why we thought he'd be of no use to us, even in a rotation.

Why is that guys like Warren and Pryce play well for other teams but struggle here? I mean Pryce wasn't half the player he was last year in any of his final 3 seasons in Denver.

55CrushEm
09-23-2007, 10:23 PM
On the commercial breaks, I caught the Oakland / Cleveland game... G. Warren was a beast out there. He was stuffing the hole and putting pressure on the QB... why did we trade him? He would have been the best player on our line this year! (Next to DOOM!)

He was motivated because he was facing his old team. I'm sure next week he'll fall and punch himself in the d1ck again.

Broncobiv
09-23-2007, 10:33 PM
I'm sure next week he'll fall and punch himself in the d1ck again.
Oh man that's hilarious! I just had a visual in my head of what that would actually look like! :spit:

Rock Chalk
09-23-2007, 10:53 PM
There came a point in time in this game which I was looking forward to the next commercial break to see if they were debuting a new Halo 3 "Believe" commercial.

Broncobiv
09-23-2007, 11:06 PM
There came a point in time in this game which I was looking forward to the next commercial break to see if they were debuting a new Halo 3 "Believe" commercial.
Speaking of that...in the commercial that's like a model battle scene, in the last shot, the Halo marine guy is holding a little glowing ball. I've never played the games, so I don't get it. What is it? Some sort of nuke? How does it play into the storyline of the games?

-Slap-
09-23-2007, 11:17 PM
And the toughest player we have on Defense was out for most of the game. . . I think the Defense really missed Lynch a lot today, especially all those runs by Gerrard. I think Gerrard's running lost us the game, and made our Defense look really bad.

Exactly. With Lynch on the bench, there is literally NOBODY on our defense who can put the fear of God into anybody tougher than Eddie Kennison.

ZachKC
09-23-2007, 11:27 PM
I saw bits and pieces of your game...that stiff arm Taylor threw in Bly's chest while he ran him over was pretty tough.

Bronco_Beerslug
09-23-2007, 11:30 PM
And the toughest player we have on Defense was out for most of the game. . . I think the Defense really missed Lynch a lot today, especially all those runs by Gerrard. I think Gerrard's running lost us the game, and made our Defense look really bad.That's because the smallest player on the field ran him into the ground and hurt him.

Malcontent
09-23-2007, 11:34 PM
That's because the smallest player on the field ran him into the ground and hurt him.

Yep..and then Gold did his usual pile on after the tackle, so coaches would think he was in on the play. I saw that a few times today.

yavoon
09-23-2007, 11:39 PM
Yep..and then Gold did his usual pile on after the tackle, so coaches would think he was in on the play. I saw that a few times today.

haha

-Slap-
09-23-2007, 11:39 PM
I can quote a dozen posts of mine saying our linebackers were going to be among the worst in football this season and ten dozen responses telling me I was crazy. How many teams that run a 4-3 base have a worse unit than we do right now? Hell, just look within the division. The second rate teams from Oakland and Kansas City both have far superior linebacking corps. Anyone who believes differently is a hopeless homer. Seriously, the only AFC team who has linebackers that are obviously worse than Denver's would be the Bengals, and that's mainly because Odell Thurman can't stay out of the slam.

DJ Williams is the only starting LB worth inviting back next season and realistically, we should probably cut bait on him, too. Let him start over fresh somewhere else. We drafted this kid fully aware that he was primarily an exceptional athlete, but he was somewhat lacking in the cerebral side of the game. We take that information and make the kid play three different positions, in two different schemes, in a four year span.

I hope management has learned a lesson. I realize you can't repair everything wrong with a team in one off season, but the nonchalance they showed in addessing the LBs was disturbing. Especially since the unit had basically underachieved over the last few years and was losing Al Wilson, by far the best LB on the team. Did they really believe they could sign retread Warrick Holdman and call it good? They were so impressed with that guy, they didn't even bother replacing him on the roster until a month after he got hurt.

BroncoBuff
09-23-2007, 11:41 PM
The Defense Is Soft .... as a ...http://gallery.ludin.org/d/2304-2/IMG_3284.JPG
One cheek is Amon ("this year's Cornell Journeyman Green") Gordon, and the other cheek is Marcus ("can you believe I'm playing this much as a rusty raw rookie?") Thomas. .... so soooooft ... ahhhh.

Bronco_Beerslug
09-23-2007, 11:42 PM
I can quote a dozen posts of mine saying our linebackers were going to be among the worst in football this season and ten dozen responses telling me I was crazy. How many teams that run a 4-3 base have a worse unit than we do right now? Hell, just look within the division. The second rate teams from Oakland and Kansas City both have far superior linebacking corps. Anyone who believes differently is a hopeless homer. Seriously, the only AFC team who has linebackers that are obviously worse than Denver's would be the Bengals, and that's mainly because Odell Thurman can't stay out of the slam.

DJ Williams is the only starting LB worth inviting back next season and realistically, we should probably cut bait on him, too. Let him start over fresh somewhere else. We drafted this kid fully aware that he was primarily an exceptional athlete, but he was somewhat lacking in the cerebral side of the game. We take that information and make the kid play three different positions, in two different schemes, in a four year span.

I hope management has learned a lesson. I realize you can't reapir everything wrong with a team in one off season, but the nonchalance they showed in addessing the LBs was disturbing. Especially since the unit had basically underachieved over the last few years and was losing Al Wilson, by far the best LB on the team. Did they really believe they could sign retread Warrick Holdman and call it good? They were so impressed with that guy, they didn't even bother replacing him on the roster until a month after he got hurt.
Well, I've been saying for 4 years we need to address the Safety problem on this team and losing Al Wilson was a huge blow!

BroncoBuff
09-23-2007, 11:54 PM
Your points are very well taken, Slap, but you forget that Nate is only on the field 2 of 3 downs at most, and was second on the team in tackles coming into today. He blew end containment twice today (once when he was unblocked), but he might be the least of our worries imo.

DJ has underacheived at Mike quite often thusfar, but he's plenty enough an athlete to run to the ball and tackle. The Jags didn't run much tricky mis-direction like Dallas did in the pre-season when they embarrassed DJ and the whole D.

I know you'll agree that trading up in the 1st round for a decade-plus franchise LB was what we shouldda done ... and ALSO trade for a 4-time Pro Bowl prototype Bates DT. Obviously we wouldn't have Jarvis Moss or Tim Crowder or next year's #1, but WE WOULD HAVE: Patrick Willis at Mike - DJ at Will - Nate Webster at Sam. We'd have: Adams and Kris Jenkins and Amon Gordon and maybe Marcus Thomas at DT, Dumervil, Engleberger and Simeon Rice at DE, and we could afford to keep the talented Kenny Peterson on the roster when he returns in a week.

Ifs and buts and candy and nuts ...

BroncoBuff
09-23-2007, 11:55 PM
Well, I've been saying for 4 years we need to address the Safety problem on this team and losing Al Wilson was a huge blow!

Where the F was Hamza today?! Does anybody know?

broncogary
09-24-2007, 12:02 AM
Where the F was Hamza today?! Does anybody know?

Hip injury, out for a month.

-Slap-
09-24-2007, 12:04 AM
Your points are very well taken, Slap, but you forget that Nate is only on the field 2 of 3 downs at most, and was second on the team in tackles coming into today. He blew end containment twice today (once when he was unblocked), but he might be the least of our worries imo.

Webster's tackle numbers are essentially meaningless. Every defense in the free world is designed for the linebackers to lead the team in tackles. Hell, DJ is leading the team in tackles and everybody pretty much agrees he's not handling the move to MLB the way we all hoped.

Did you notice John Engleberger and three defensive backs were among the team tackles leaders going into today's ballgame?

BroncoBuff
09-24-2007, 12:45 AM
Webster's tackle numbers are essentially meaningless. Every defense in the free world is designed for the linebackers to lead the team in tackles. Hell, DJ is leading the team in tackles and everybody pretty much agrees he's not handling the move to MLB the way we all hoped.

Did you notice John Engleberger and three defensive backs were among the team tackles leaders going into today's ballgame?
Yes I did notice that. And like Webster, Engleberger is a 2-down player. Strange ...

But I still have more faith In DJ than most here - largely because I think the DTs are unthinkably awful (did I mention that?) Amon Gordon is a latter-day Cornell Green ... a journeyman, moderately skilled player who was promoted over a lazy, underacheiving 1st-rounder (Foster, Gerard Warren). The duifference is, we cut bait right away with Green ... we need to find somebody to replace Gordon.

UPSHOT ... until the standard Bates DT chores are being completed, I'm not ready to fully blame the LBs (except Gold of course). Even Urlacher and ray-Ray have had a hard time without their DT walls.




And is Hamza really out for a month? When? How did I miss that?? (softball for somebody...)

BroncoBuff
09-24-2007, 12:48 AM
BTW - has anybody called out that flag-magnet Karl Paymah yet?

Bigdawg26
09-24-2007, 12:59 AM
Well I dont really blame DJ completely (although we can all agree that he is/and will be a hell of a good WLB). He just is not a natural MLB, Bates just made him MLB because he IS the best linebacker that we have and wants to best linebacker in the middle. The other reason is that it's kind of hard to run a gap that you CAN RUN A FREAKIN TRUCK THROUGH IT. Sam Adams is to lazy to make the tackle unless you run into him and Amon Gordon is getting owned by one guard. So the center is sealing Adams then moving on the the second level to get DJ or a Fullback is flying at him. I think we need to just start Marcus Thomas because 1.) he cant do any worst than Gordon 2.) at least he has the chance to develop into a legit DT. We need to get a thumper in the middle next year and move DJ to sam while getting a DT that can stop the run.

NFLBRONCO
09-24-2007, 01:11 AM
We all said, O had to light up scoreboard early in the season or we'd be in trouble. Our D has been soft and lacked playmakers for years.

TheChamp24
09-24-2007, 01:50 AM
Our LB's and DT's are horrible. I was talking to my brother, and told him next year we need to get some good DT's and LB's.
Also, Engelberger freakin blows. What the hell has he done this year except get stuffed at the line of scrimmage on a pass or run?

Los Broncos
09-24-2007, 03:23 AM
Where the F was Hamza today?! Does anybody know?

He had a minor injury last week

Popps
09-24-2007, 04:50 AM
Again, the hardest thing to stomach (besides losing and being pushed around) about this defense is that we have talented, class-acts like Bailey and Lynch rotting away back there. We're so blessed to have those dudes, and we're just pissing away their talents trotting practice squad scrubs out there on the D-line.

Then, I have to sit and watch highlights of teams like Pitt and Balt's swarming defense out there knocking opposing offenses in the mouth every week.

Ugh.

BroncoBuff
09-24-2007, 05:00 AM
Again, the hardest thing to stomach (besides losing and being pushed around) about this defense is that we have talented, class-acts like Bailey and Lynch rotting away back there. We're so blessed to have those dudes, and we're just pissing away their talents trotting practice squad scrubs out there on the D-line.

Then, I have to sit and watch highlights of teams like Pitt and Balt's swarming defense out there knocking opposing offenses in the mouth every week.

Ugh.
Well, a lot of that is perception, though ... we give up fewer yards and points than most defense, it's just our run d - DTs specifically - that are letting us down.

The Jags didn't exactly run up 30 points or anything.

eddie mac
09-24-2007, 07:25 AM
He was motivated because he was facing his old team. I'm sure next week he'll fall and punch himself in the d1ck again.

He still ****ing better than the practice squad turd.

fontaine
09-24-2007, 07:35 AM
I was stoned last year when I said we lost the 49ers games because the heart and muscle of our defense in Al Wilson was out and it's pretty clear now that we miss his fire and hard hitting ability out there.

I can't blame DJ too much. Everyone who's been following his career knows that the knock on him was that he didn't have top level instincts and the mental game to diagnose and read plays. So what do we do? Put him in as the QB of the defense where he has to go do exactly that.

I still say he can become an impact player for us on the Weakside where he just has to react and use his physical skills.

I know I'll get stoned for saying this but at least Larry Coyer's defense had sound fundamentals in tackling, and were solid against the run. Yeah we gave up points in the playoffs but that was against solid offenses, not offensive retards like the jagwads.

I didn't watch the game but it sounds like Gold was up to his usual tricks of getting blocked and knocked back.

We need DTs in this D that are worth a damn instead of the usual bargain basement trash we bring in here every offseason.

no-pseudo-fan
09-24-2007, 09:49 AM
Don't you think that we are packing it in a little soon? We got smacked in the mouth today, and? I haven't given up on the season. Things will work themselves out, one way or another.

55CrushEm
09-24-2007, 09:59 AM
Again, the hardest thing to stomach (besides losing and being pushed around) about this defense is that we have talented, class-acts like Bailey and Lynch rotting away back there. We're so blessed to have those dudes, and we're just pissing away their talents trotting practice squad scrubs out there on the D-line.

Then, I have to sit and watch highlights of teams like Pitt and Balt's swarming defense out there knocking opposing offenses in the mouth every week.

Ugh.

QFT....I really feel bad for our secondary.....loaded with Pro-bowlers....and we give them zero help up front.

HEAV
09-24-2007, 10:10 AM
Yup. Ian Gold was regularly seen running in the tight end's wake. DJ also really struggled to fill a gap and was guessing out there. He needs to just fly to his gap and hold his own.



Ian Gold defenders also point out the tackles (stat sheet) that Ian collects.

But the guy's tackles are him cleaning up his own mess.

Going into the draft I was hoping for a young LB. But then the team signed Holdman and D.D. a few days before.

This teams LB's are a mess. DJ should be at weakside, Webster in the middle and DD at strong side.

eddie mac
09-24-2007, 10:24 AM
Don't you think that we are packing it in a little soon? We got smacked in the mouth today, and? I haven't given up on the season. Things will work themselves out, one way or another.

We got jabbed in Buffalo, punched in the face against Oakland and knocked to **** out against the Jags.

Beantown Bronco
09-24-2007, 10:39 AM
A lot of you need to watch the game for yourselves instead of saying, "well I didn't watch the game, but it sounds to me like ___________from reading the stuff here".

I may not get any popularity pts here for saying this, but here's what I saw after watching the game twice:

Lynch was whiffing a lot when he was in there. He was almost exclusively playing in the box and was throwing his body around, but rarely made the actual tackle. The announcers loved calling his name because he was always put in position to make the play, was often the first to the hole; but in reality the guys behind him had to make the tackle because he was getting tossed aside by the RBs.

I've actually been seeing this out of him quite a bit more this season than ever before. He's never been one to completely wrap up a ball carrier, but it appears that he's lost a bit of the "pop" in his hits that would allow him to get away with that. Guys have consistently been able to withstand that original hit and that's all it takes....

Not having Hamza available REALLY hurt. There is a serious dropoff in talent from him to Cox.

Re: Gold vs. DJ: On three occasions, Gold was playing to DJ's left, yet made it across the field to the defense's right side and made the tackle...twice unassisted. He was not "cleaning up his own mess." Where was DJ? Busy hanging out in the middle of a pile of bodies in the line. For some reason, he seems to be as attracted to piles of bodies in the middle of the line as a mosquito is to a bright light.

Gold (and others) had trouble covering M. Lewis, but so wouldn't any LB. It's kind of like putting a LB on Scheffler. It's just not a good matchup for the defense.

-Slap-
09-25-2007, 09:39 AM
Keith Bullock with three interceptions last night. The same total pitiful Ian Gold has managed in his pathetic eight year career. What a dominant cover linebacker. We're so lucky we wrecked the entire defensive philosophy by bringing this mincing egomaniac back to the organization.

Beantown Bronco
09-25-2007, 10:00 AM
Keith Bullock with three interceptions last night. The same total pitiful Ian Gold has managed in his pathetic eight year career. What a dominant cover linebacker. We're so lucky we wrecked the entire defensive philosophy by bringing this mincing egomaniac back to the organization.

Great example.....why don't you just compare Carson Palmer's 6 TD performance to Cutler's 1 TD performance? None of our LBs are as good as Bullock, and good luck finding anyone to disagree with that.

And no, the defensive philosophy never changed because of Gold....who by the way was obviously not such a problem the last few years when the defense was consistently ranked in the top 5-10 of the league. The defensive philosophy changed when Bates came in, cleaned house, moved players around and changed schemes. Even my three year old daughter knows that.....jeez.

-Slap-
09-25-2007, 11:10 AM
And no, the defensive philosophy never changed because of Gold....who by the way was obviously not such a problem the last few years when the defense was consistently ranked in the top 5-10 of the league. The defensive philosophy changed when Bates came in, cleaned house, moved players around and changed schemes. Even my three year old daughter knows that.....jeez.

If you think we had a top 5-10 defense the last few years, your three year old daughter is being raised by a retard. I pray for her welfare.

Beantown Bronco
09-25-2007, 11:33 AM
If you think we had a top 5-10 defense the last few years, your three year old daughter is being raised by a retard. I pray for her welfare.

last year, the Broncos defense was ranked 8th in pts scored against.

in 2005, they were ranked 3rd in pts scored against.

You were saying?

Broncomutt
09-25-2007, 11:45 AM
Again, the hardest thing to stomach (besides losing and being pushed around) about this defense is that we have talented, class-acts like Bailey and Lynch rotting away back there. We're so blessed to have those dudes, and we're just pissing away their talents trotting practice squad scrubs out there on the D-line.

Then, I have to sit and watch highlights of teams like Pitt and Balt's swarming defense out there knocking opposing offenses in the mouth every week.

Ugh.

Bears repeating. I really feel bad for Bailey. At least Lynch has a ring, but Bailey is 110% class and heart and deserves better.

Thing is I don't see our D going in the right direction. I think we are worse than when we were the Browncos and heading downhill.

Billy Clyde Puckett
09-25-2007, 11:53 AM
charmin soft, rice has no heart, !

Yep. where are all the folk that said he would be a great example for the rooks? Stands around with his hands on his hips when the play goes away from him. Makes a nice Ole tackle on every running play that comes at him

Spider
09-25-2007, 12:07 PM
A lot of you need to watch the game for yourselves instead of saying, "well I didn't watch the game, but it sounds to me like ___________from reading the stuff here".

I may not get any popularity pts here for saying this, but here's what I saw after watching the game twice:

Lynch was whiffing a lot when he was in there. He was almost exclusively playing in the box and was throwing his body around, but rarely made the actual tackle. The announcers loved calling his name because he was always put in position to make the play, was often the first to the hole; but in reality the guys behind him had to make the tackle because he was getting tossed aside by the RBs.

I've actually been seeing this out of him quite a bit more this season than ever before. He's never been one to completely wrap up a ball carrier, but it appears that he's lost a bit of the "pop" in his hits that would allow him to get away with that. Guys have consistently been able to withstand that original hit and that's all it takes....

Not having Hamza available REALLY hurt. There is a serious dropoff in talent from him to Cox.

Re: Gold vs. DJ: On three occasions, Gold was playing to DJ's left, yet made it across the field to the defense's right side and made the tackle...twice unassisted. He was not "cleaning up his own mess." Where was DJ? Busy hanging out in the middle of a pile of bodies in the line. For some reason, he seems to be as attracted to piles of bodies in the middle of the line as a mosquito is to a bright light.

Gold (and others) had trouble covering M. Lewis, but so wouldn't any LB. It's kind of like putting a LB on Scheffler. It's just not a good matchup for the defense.

and to think I was thinking I had to get my TV fixed ...... Yeah Gold isnt a superstar , he is undersized , misses tackles , but he was at the POA .... I saw the entire Defense outside of Champ ,whiff ....Doom played a hella game , Rice and him was pinching off the ends well , but as I said in another post , the entire Defense lost contain .......

BroncoBuff
09-25-2007, 11:53 PM
last year, the Broncos defense was ranked 8th in pts scored against.
in 2005, they were ranked 3rd in pts scored against.
Yeah, overall #2 defense in 2005 ... I think Slap you're conflating the bizarre OLB-musical chairs/tragic loss of Al Wilson with the overall defense. After all, even with Walls/Herndon at RCB and Kenoy/Brandon at SS, our secondary has been among the elite units in the league since '04.

But I certainly agree the linebackers are a mess ... signing Gold was an anormous mistake. Donnie Spragan was abysmal in coverage, but DJ @ Will and Spragan @ Mike would be fine now.

Bronco Yoda
09-25-2007, 11:59 PM
I'm still waiting for Shanahan to pull Al Wilson from a hat.

Broncos4Life
09-26-2007, 06:20 AM
Yeah, overall #2 defense in 2005 ... I think Slap you're conflating the bizarre OLB-musical chairs/tragic loss of Al Wilson with the overall defense. After all, even with Walls/Herndon at RCB and Kenoy/Brandon at SS, our secondary has been among the elite units in the league since '04.

But I certainly agree the linebackers are a mess ... signing Gold was an anormous mistake. Donnie Spragan was abysmal in coverage, but DJ @ Will and Spragan @ Mike would be fine now.

Thats what I was pretty much saying last week:
Gold just disappoints me. I'm still pissed we got him back. I met the guy before in Denver. He is pretty smallish. Never been impressed with him other than his speed, which is good, but he just overruns too many plays. I would take Donnie Spragen over this guy right now and all he has is one tackle. And I don't even know if he started for the Phins last week
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=60681

The MVPlaya
03-29-2010, 06:39 PM
bump

Dagmar
03-29-2010, 06:46 PM
bump

Dude, erm, what are you doing?