After Review--Sam Adams causing problems

[Stormontheplains]

I don't know how many of you record the games or replay, but as I watched the defense I found some interesting issues. Oakland ran a zone blocking scheme of course, and as a dlinemen you must move your gap down the line of scrimmage. What I saw from Adams was zero side to side movement. On the big runs that Jordan had Adams would stand his lineman up and not be able to get down the line. At the beginning of the game Oakland used a scrape block, and as the game went on they went one on one and used the scraper on a linebacker who was Ian gold for the most part. With those two factors there were big holes. I noticed when Burton went in he had zero penetration but great movement on C gap runs, much better than Adams. In the 4th quarter and overtime when Burton was in they started to cut block him with isolation on gold so they were still successfull. Bottom line is if Adams and gold are on the same side we are in deep ****, due to the fact that two gaps are uncovered. Side note to Ian Gold----You do NOT fill a hole 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage, even if you are weak, attempt to fill across the LOS

[OrangeShadow]

you dont see his name in the stat sheet much, i think its like 3 or 4 tackles this season but hes making a noticeable difference in the game.

[Eldorado]

I don't know how many of you record the games or replay, but as I watched the defense I found some interesting issues. Oakland ran a zone blocking scheme of course, and as a dlinemen you must move your gap down the line of scrimmage. What I saw from Adams was zero side to side movement. On the big runs that Jordan had Adams would stand his lineman up and not be able to get down the line. At the beginning of the game Oakland used a scrape block, and as the game went on they went one on one and used the scraper on a linebacker who was Ian gold for the most part. With those two factors there were big holes. I noticed when aman Burton went in he had zero penetration but great movement on C gap runs, much better than Adams. In the 4th quarter and overtime when Burton was in they started to cut block him with isolation on gold so they were still successfully. Bottom line is if Adams and gold are on the same side we are in deep ****, due to the fact that two gaps are uncovered. Side note to Ian Gold----You do NOT fill a hole 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage, even if you are weak, attempt to fill across the LOS

I don't know man. I thought adams did well on obvious running downs, particularly the goal line near-saftey early in the game. I saw burton get blown off the los bad. I agree w/ you on gold. I think the weakest formation we have against the run is when burton and gold are on the same side. On the bright side, I though Webster had a monster game. Filling holes, staying in position, making tackles. I am much more impressed with him than I thought I would be. I will have to review again and watch Gordon.

[broncsyanks]

he takes up 2 blockers on the line and doesnt get a tackle. i disagree. all i know is that the lbs are did not step up or was burnt when those plays you are referring to was pulled off

[Stormontheplains]

We are talking C gap or off tackle runs, not goal line or short yardage. The damage is done in the middle of the field. By the way, if you see two olineman engaged with one of ours they are doing there job reguardless of making tackles.

[Vegas_Bronco]

I think you are referring to the 4th down play in particular. Adams was not too impressive getting down the line but you can't be perfect on every play defensively. Adams brings size to the front and he is a demon to deal with. True, our front 7 must do better agains the run - It starts at the DE position with Engelberger who has to do better sheddnig the block, also the linebackers have to fill the gaps - Gold has to do better. I thought DJ and NAte both had great games. One thing I miss are those snot knocker hits that old Rhino brought to the game. Nothing will kill a RB confidence more than a solid shot to the chops - kills his confidence in his line and 2-3 shots a game and the guy will run soft. Hard to do in the NFL but Al was excellent at the skill.

Overall the Run Defense needs more work but I'm confident we'll get it there. Jordan is a tough back, huge in fact, and I can't even imagine trying to tackle that after he gets going. I noticed on a few occasions that Bly diliberately moved to the side when he came his way. But on the other side of the ball, the Raiders Defense was even softer. Nobody wants to tackle the bowling ball once it gets going - Travis was a beast!

[HEAV]

Gold can't tackle.

DT's in Bates system are supposed to take up space and leave the LBs the fame of making tackles.

Gold can't tackle.

[Stormontheplains]

I think you are referring to the 4th down play in particular. Adams was not too impressive getting down the line but you can't be perfect on every play defensively. Adams brings size to the front and he is a demon to deal with. True, our front 7 must do better agains the run - It starts at the DE position with Engelberger who has to do better sheddnig the block, also the linebackers have to fill the gaps - Gold has to do better. I thought DJ and NAte both had great games. One thing I miss are those snot knocker hits that old Rhino brought to the game. Nothing will kill a RB confidence more than a solid shot to the chops - kills his confidence in his line and 2-3 shots a game and the guy will run soft. Hard to do in the NFL but Al was excellent at the skill.

Overall the Run Defense needs more work but I'm confident we'll get it there. Jordan is a tough back, huge in fact, and I can't even imagine trying to tackle that after he gets going. I noticed on a few occasions that Bly diliberately moved to the side when he came his way. But on the other side of the ball, the Raiders Defense was even softer. Nobody wants to tackle the bowling ball once it gets going - Travis was a beast!

I am referring to 9 plays to be specific. All C gap runs.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Good post.

[Eldorado]

I am referring to 9 plays to be specific. All C gap runs.

Storm, can tell me which nine plays? I'd like to check 'em out and see what your talking about. Good thread, btw.

[Jason in LA]

I really wasn't paying attention to Adams during the game, but a few times I did notice the center release clean and block DJ Williams. That's not supposed to happen when you have huge DTs who are supposed to take up blockers. DJ should be able to roam around unblocked for the most part and make tackles.

I'm not saying that it happened all the time. I don't have the game on tape. Maybe one of you guys who do can take a look back and see how often the center was able to get to DJ. But if that is happening often, the DTs, namely Adams, aren't doing their job.

[Stormontheplains]

I will watch it again tonight, then post the quarter and time so you can see what I am talking about.

[Eldorado]

Cool. Thanks.

[theAPAOps5]

Its not just Sam Adams but its also Burton. He seems to be blown up a lot from what I have seen. Makes me wonder why he is starting sometimes.

[Beantown Bronco]

Gold can't tackle.

DT's in Bates system are supposed to take up space and leave the LBs the fame of making tackles.

Gold can't tackle.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you missed the Oakland game.

I can understand people bagging on Gold for his week one performance. It was not good. But even the haters have to admit his tackling and ability to shed blockers against Oakland was as solid as anyone could hope for out of any LB.

[Eldorado]

Its not just Sam Adams but its also Burton. He seems to be blown up a lot from what I have seen. Makes me wonder why he is starting sometimes.

I thought gorden was starting.

[HEAV]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you missed the Oakland game.

I can understand people bagging on Gold for his week one performance. It was not good. But even the haters have to admit his tackling and ability to shed blockers against Oakland was as solid as anyone could hope for out of any LB.


One good game doesn't make up for years of crappy tackles... ;)


I got to see the last 5 minutes of the game. Listened to the game on Sirius.

I may be wrong (like always) but I thought the Raiders ran and got most of their yards on long distance downs. Seems they where spreading the defense out. Meaning more coverage for the LB's and DB's.

In OT the fat guys may have been tired also.

But then if you look at the goal line plays you can see the defense working at it's best.


Myself I don't like Gold, so I could be bias... But I felt Webster had a better game than Gold from what I heard and saw later.

[ND Bronco Fan]

Gold can't tackle.

DT's in Bates system are supposed to take up space and leave the LBs the fame of making tackles.

Gold can't tackle.

You're right he can't tackle, he sure can run into and bounce off them with the best of them though, I just don't understand how he does not get his ass ripped for not wrapping up.

[Eldorado]

gorden started. Gold had a nice tackle at about the 5:17 in the third. 'bout all I got for him, though.

The bly td was a blown assignment by lynch. I think it was cover 2 and he had the top but was late.

All I watched tonight was the 3rd and the start of the 4th, so now I am depressed.

I should crack one and push through OT just for the tinglies.

go j, go.

[Los Broncos]

Man, we went into the stadium early to go down low to see the field and players, i never realized how big he really is.

My gf said "how sad", he can barely move or run.

[Willynowei]

Alot of blame on Gold in this thread. Gold played very well last week from what i could see. Took on the block hard in eight man fronts, lead the team in tackles and ran hard to the ball. He is actually less capable when lined up far from the ball b/c hes getting locked up off the LOS and is too small to stand up the gap.

I thought DJ had a terrible game, and I know two big plays that were entirely his fault. Webster had a very good game. I also thought Adams has done well for us, though in Oakland I didn't notice him much outside of a few nice plays in the first half.

[Willynowei]

gorden started. Gold had a nice tackle at about the 5:17 in the third. 'bout all I got for him, though.

The bly td was a blown assignment by lynch. I think it was cover 2 and he had the top but was late.

All I watched tonight was the 3rd and the start of the 4th, so now I am depressed.

I should crack one and push through OT just for the tinglies.

go j, go.

You are right it was a cover 2, but the wrong kind - as in shell 2 man, in otherwords, that was completely Bly's fault.

Porter ran the route, McCown sold the pump fake, and Bly bit. It was an example of how to burn a corner 101. Happens.

[Willynowei]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you missed the Oakland game.

I can understand people bagging on Gold for his week one performance. It was not good. But even the haters have to admit his tackling and ability to shed blockers against Oakland was as solid as anyone could hope for out of any LB.

Dead on Beantown.

[Garcia Bronco]

Man, we went into the stadium early to go down low to see the field and players, i never realized how big he really is.

My gf said "how sad", he can barely move or run.

one of his legs is shorter than the other

[Los Broncos]

one of his legs is shorter than the other

Wow, hes huge none the less.

He waddles

[Eldorado]

You are right it was a cover 2, but the wrong kind - as in shell 2 man, in otherwords, that was completely Bly's fault.

Porter ran the route, McCown sold the pump fake, and Bly bit. It was an example of how to burn a corner 101. Happens.

So it was NOT a cover 2 shell?

[Eldorado]

I dont know man. BOTH safties moving backwards as the ball is snapped. Bly breaks BEFORE the pump fake, indicating (to me) he expects help over the top.

The most important fact here is that I dont know **** about ****, so if I am missing something, just point it out. I can take it.

[Willynowei]

So it was NOT a cover 2 shell?

A cover 2 doesn't have to indicate that its zone, usually when the term "Cover 2" is used, it refers to the zone coverage, and the popularized Cover 2 Buc.

A Shell 2 man is also called cover 2, but the corners play man and the safeties help out on the deepest route. Porter was Bly's man all the way, Bly just got caught looking at McCown who pumped faked him off.

[Willynowei]

I dont know man. BOTH safties moving backwards as the ball is snapped. Bly breaks BEFORE the pump fake, indicating (to me) he expects help over the top.

The most important fact here is that I dont know **** about ****, so if I am missing something, just point it out. I can take it.

Well you can see the highlight online? If so, watch one of our linebackers crawl towards the LOS as the ball is snapped, this is b/c his man stays in to block, also, the man lined up over the slot receiver turns his hips and runs up field...

These two actions indicate man coverage underneath. The two safeties are deep to prevent the big play in a cover 2 shell yes, but their main responsibility is the seam down the middle, where that slot receiver is attacking. I would imagine that the slot receiver there is bracketed by the underneath man playing his inside and the deep safety - Ferguson securing the outside. This means Lynch would probably shift towards the deep middle of the field.

Dre is one on one on the outside, the Raiders isolated him there and they fooled him. The reason he broke before the cut is, obviously, because he read the QB not the man, something you are not supposed to do in man coverage - to my understanding you are only supposed to read the QB's drop depth in man coverage, nothing else; Dre go caught there.

You don't have to trust me that Dre got beat, he's already quoted as saying he made a mistake and things like that happen when you're on an island.

[BroncoBuff]

I am referring to 9 plays to be specific. All C gap runs.
I'm not sure what that means, but I have it on Tivo (all but the first half of the 1st qtr - I still havent seen Champ's INT) ... I rewatched all the defensive plays the other day specifically to watch the DTs, too. I did notice that Oakland did not run zone blocking on EVERY running play - on some plays, they ran semi-normal drive-blocking or a man-up pass protection type thing.

But gimme some more to go on ... what's a C-gap?

[BroncoBuff]

Its not just Sam Adams but its also Burton. He seems to be blown up a lot from what I have seen. Makes me wonder why he is starting sometimes.
You made the same mistake Kevin Harlan made at least twice - calling Gordon Burton ... actually, Harlan did the opposite, called Burton Gordon.

I agree with you though, Amon Gordon seems to get pushed around quite a lot - especially in pre-season. I recall posting that several times, but I finally figured I must not understand what Bates is looking for in DT play.

I can definitely say that both Amon Gordon and Marcus Thomas are stonewalled by single teams quite often ... leaving them jumping up and down in front of the defender like a kid reaching for a cookie jar on a high shelf. IN FACT ... if you re-watch the game, look closely at the Thomas interception play ... his catch was great, but on that play he was completely stonewalled by a single team (mightta been Cooper Carlisle) just as I described - and it's not the only time that's happened to MT by a longshot.


But again - I must not understand what Bates is looking for in a DT, because I've watched the DTs a lot all year, and Antwan Burton seems better than Marcus Thomas or Amon Gordon to me.

[SoCalBronco]

I'm not sure what that means, but I have it on Tivo (all but the first half of the 1st qtr - I still havent seen Champ's INT) ... I rewatched all the defensive plays the other day specifically to watch the DTs, too. I did notice that Oakland did not run zone blocking on EVERY running play - on some plays, they ran semi-normal drive-blocking or a man-up pass protection type thing.

But gimme some more to go on ... what's a C-gap?

Gap between tackle and tight end (or ghost tight end if there is none)

[Broncos4Life]

gorden started. Gold had a nice tackle at about the 5:17 in the third. 'bout all I got for him, though.

The bly td was a blown assignment by lynch. I think it was cover 2 and he had the top but was late.

All I watched tonight was the 3rd and the start of the 4th, so now I am depressed.

I should crack one and push through OT just for the tinglies.

go j, go.

I can't tell you exactly what kind of D it was, but I can tell you that Lynch was not blowing an assignment. He was playing the middle third and was not playing that deep. That play was Bly's fault.

[Mediator12]

You are right it was a cover 2, but the wrong kind - as in shell 2 man, in otherwords, that was completely Bly's fault.

Porter ran the route, McCown sold the pump fake, and Bly bit. It was an example of how to burn a corner 101. Happens.

Was it cover two man, or cover three man? It looked awful similar to what DEN ran last year that often gets confused for cover two. It is cover three off coverage, where one of the safety's either plays robber or slot zone while the DB's keep the WR in front of them. The DB's combine man and zone reads but must read the QB first then the man. It looked like Bly bit on the under from the QB drop and pump fake, not unlike Darrent's struggles last year. It takes time to learn that technique and discipline.

BTW, for everyone out there, coverages are termed first by the number of players assigned deep. Therefore, Cover one has a lone deep DB, Cover two has 2 DB's, Cover three has 3 deep DB's etcetera. If the play is zone, then you have deep versus under coverages. In cover two zone, you have 2 deep and 5 under in coverage. Cover three is 3 deep, four under. In man coverage, the safety's guard the deep whole in cover 1 or Half in cover 2.

Those are the very basics of elementary coverage. It does not include all the minute tweakings of the NFL though. College coverages are extremely simple compared to the ones in the NFL that will change game to game based on the opponent and their strengths.

[Willynowei]

Was it cover two man, or cover three man? It looked awful similar to what DEN ran last year that often gets confused for cover two. It is cover three off coverage, where one of the safety's either plays robber or slot zone while the DB's keep the WR in front of them. The DB's combine man and zone reads but must read the QB first then the man. It looked like Bly bit on the under from the QB drop and pump fake, not unlike Darrent's struggles last year. It takes time to learn that technique and discipline.

BTW, for everyone out there, coverages are termed first by the number of players assigned deep. Therefore, Cover one has a lone deep DB, Cover two has 2 DB's, Cover three has 3 deep DB's etcetera. If the play is zone, then you have deep versus under coverages. In cover two zone, you have 2 deep and 5 under in coverage. Cover three is 3 deep, four under. In man coverage, the safety's guard the deep whole in cover 1 or Half in cover 2.

Those are the very basics of elementary coverage. It does not include all the minute tweakings of the NFL though. College coverages are extremely simple compared to the ones in the NFL that will change game to game based on the opponent and their strengths.


EDIT: *Sorry, NVM, i reread ur post and see what you're saying now*

But in that coverage, when the runningbacks stay in to block, don't the linebackers drop into underneath coverage? I mean, usually in that situation the linebacker would float down the middile of the field and keep an eye on his man assignment. Otherwise the underneath middle of the field is covered by the safety playing robber. What happens if the flanker runs a dig or something?

I was trying to explain what you said there to orange and blue, b/c a lot of people assume cover 2 means cover 2 zone or cover 2 buc, both very different. Even if we play a man coverage where you're supposed to read the QB at the snap, its still man coverage, and you're only supposed to read drop depth, I mean, anything else, and you open yourself up to big plays like that one.

[DHBRONCO]

I watched the game again against oakland and the probablem was with the linbackers not filling the right gaps. Runs from the center to the guards are stuffed. Runs outside the tackles are also contained pretty well with are speed. The problem, especially against oakland, was the runs between the guards and the tackles, which for this defense, is the responsibility of the linebackers. As the middle linebackers, DJ should be the one making all these tackles. That is what Bates defense is all about funnelling the runners in to the MLB. DJ is either getting sucked up into the crowd or is over pursuing. I would love to seen a healthy Al in this defensive scheme. He would be killing people out there with no one touching him. One note, I watch gold try to make tackles on Jordan only to get blow away. He is going to have a tough time one on one with bigger backs. He is just to light.

[bowtown]

This is the best football thread since SoCal and Kaylore's camp reports. Please keep it going. :thumbsup:

[Eldorado]

Well you can see the highlight online? If so, watch one of our linebackers crawl towards the LOS as the ball is snapped, this is b/c his man stays in to block, also, the man lined up over the slot receiver turns his hips and runs up field...

These two actions indicate man coverage underneath. The two safeties are deep to prevent the big play in a cover 2 shell yes, but their main responsibility is the seam down the middle, where that slot receiver is attacking. I would imagine that the slot receiver there is bracketed by the underneath man playing his inside and the deep safety - Ferguson securing the outside. This means Lynch would probably shift towards the deep middle of the field.

Dre is one on one on the outside, the Raiders isolated him there and they fooled him. The reason he broke before the cut is, obviously, because he read the QB not the man, something you are not supposed to do in man coverage - to my understanding you are only supposed to read the QB's drop depth in man coverage, nothing else; Dre go caught there.

You don't have to trust me that Dre got beat, he's already quoted as saying he made a mistake and things like that happen when you're on an island.

I agree. I have thought it was cover 2 man the whole time. If lynch had the middle third and bly was on an island , then he has no business jumping like that. He did it before the pump, just watching the qbs eyes. which is my main reason for thinking he expected help over the top. If he wasn't expecting help and still did that? whoa...

as to the quote, what the hell else is he gonna say? No pointing fingers, thats a rule.

Just to be clear, here. I have not convinced even myself that it was lynch's blown coverage. I definitly think there was some confusion based on the pre snap exchange between bly and lynch. Whatever, somebody screwed up and it was a TD.

Thanks for the beta willy. That was cool.

[Natedogg]

sweet thread. i like bly. but there are that was not a good time to gamble. cool stuff about the dfense. insight like this is why i read the mane.

[Stormontheplains]

I watched the game again against oakland and the probablem was with the linbackers not filling the right gaps. Runs from the center to the guards are stuffed. Runs outside the tackles are also contained pretty well with are speed. The problem, especially against oakland, was the runs between the guards and the tackles, which for this defense, is the responsibility of the linebackers. As the middle linebackers, DJ should be the one making all these tackles. That is what Bates defense is all about funnelling the runners in to the MLB. DJ is either getting sucked up into the crowd or is over pursuing. I would love to seen a healthy Al in this defensive scheme. He would be killing people out there with no one touching him. One note, I watch gold try to make tackles on Jordan only to get blow away. He is going to have a tough time one on one with bigger backs. He is just to light.

DJ and Ian should be making the tackles, but without adams or whorever taking a double team they can go immediatly to the sam. If they dont even have to scrape the dtackle, they catch the LB on an anlge which is a much easier block. We have to have combo blocks for our lb's to be good.