And the penalty is.....

[PatsWin2002]

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/14109617/detail.html

Source: NFL To Fine Belichick, Pats
Coach To Pay $500,000

BOSTON -- The NFL is planning to punish the New England Patriots and the team's coach, Bill Belichick, after the team got caught taping signals during the Jets game, sources confirmed Thursday.

SportsCenter 5's Mike Lynch reported that a decision will be announced Friday, but sources have said the NFL is going to fine Belichick $500,000. The fine has to be paid by Belichick himself and cannot be paid by the team's owner, Robert Kraft.

In addition to the fine, the Patriots must forfeit two high draft choices. They could be as high as a first- and a third-round draft choice, sources said.

A letter will be faxed to Belichick telling him of the NFL's decision, and he will not be required to appear in person at the NFL headquarters in New York City.

The controversy started when a Patriots cameraman was caught videotaping a New York Jets coach's signals during last weekend's season-opening game.

In a news conference Wednesday, Belichick issued a terse written statement before his regular weekly team news conference saying, "Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league's decision, I will have further comment."

Belichick indicated he may have misinterpreted the National Football League's rules regarding recording games.

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner (Roger) Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling," Belichick said.

The Patriots were accused of spying during Sunday's game against the New York Jets by Jets coach Eric Mangini. NFL security officials confiscated a video camera from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the sideline Sunday.

[broncosteven]

Do the Patsy's have 2 1st's this year or was that last year?

Maybe they don't care due to stock pileing of picks?

BTW I still think the Penalty should be that Marcia's Place in the Supermodel line is moved from behind Leonardo Dicapro to behind ME!

[Broncos123]

A first and third rounder. That is a high price for the Pats, I don't care about the money, he can afford the fine and Robert Kraft will find a way to pay for it. That means every team gets a higher pick in the first round, sweet.

[PatsWin2002]

From memory....I think we had 2 1st rounders....one from SF.

I'm seeing other comments about a 2-3 game suspension for BB, but nothing solid yet. We'll know for sure tomorrow.

[crowebomber]

A first and third rounder. That is a high price for the Pats, I don't care about the money, he can afford the fine and Robert Kraft will find a way to pay for it. That means every team gets a higher pick in the first round, sweet.

Not every team, only the ones that end up with a better record than the Patriots. So, the Broncos will likely get a higher pick .:thumbsup: :thumbs:

[Xenos]

Do the Patsy's have 2 1st's this year or was that last year?

Maybe they don't care due to stock pileing of picks?

BTW I still think the Penalty should be that Marcia's Place in the Supermodel line is moved from behind Leonardo Dicapro to behind ME!

They have the Niner's 1st this year.

[bronclvr]

Goodell is a Pu$$y........

[Rock Chalk]

Ghey.

Should have to forfeit all their draft picks, for three years! Coach should be suspended "indefinately" like Michael Vick.

That's my expert analysis.

[broncosteven]

I just realized If I got Herpes I could pass it to Marcia, depending on if Goodell moves Marcia behind me and Leo in the Supermodel line that is.

Wait, maybe Marcia already has Herpes and I can save my wife the trouble!

I got to think this out.

[PatsWin2002]

The radio keeps saying things like "two draft picks, one possibly a first rounder".

I don't know what to believe yet. I posted once I had a link and ran with it. :)

[broncosteven]

They have the Niner's 1st this year.

Slap on the wrist then.

[broncosteven]

The radio keeps saying things like "two draft picks, one possibly a first rounder".

I don't know what to believe yet. I posted once I had a link and ran with it. :)

Cool I am running with the whole Me ahead of Marcia in the SuperModel line thing... ;)

[Rock Chalk]

If this happened to the Donks, SoCal would be furious.

[Xenos]

Slap on the wrist then.

They should take both first rounders away and give them to the Jet! lol

[DomCasual]

They should take both first rounders away and give them to the Jet! lol

I still hate the Jets. I think they should take the Jets 1st away, too - just because the J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets thing is completely obnoxious.

The Chiefs should probably lose a few picks, too - simply because you know they would have probably done it, if Carl Peterson was smart enough to use a camera.

Lastly, I think the Raiders should lose a pick, just on general principle.

[PatsWin2002]

DomCasual ....the beacon of reason. :)

[boltaneer]

I'm disappointed in Goodell if this is the penalty...

[ward63]

I still hate the Jets. I think they should take the Jets 1st away, too - just because the J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets thing is completely obnoxious.

The Chiefs should probably lose a few picks, too - simply because you know they would have probably done it, if Carl Peterson was smart enough to use a camera.

Lastly, I think the Raiders should lose a pick, just on general principle.

The Chiefs should lose some picks b/c they're usually dumb when they draft and cut them a week after the season starts.

And the Raiders should lose picks b/c they'll get the #1 overall and not sign him until after the first regular season game and still give him the richest rookie contract ever.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I can't imagine the players union would allow them to take away a first round pick because that would mean one less player is getting the first round cash. I figure a 2nd and a 3rd or two thirds.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I'm disappointed in Goodell if this is the penalty...

500,000 and two high draft choices? what the hell do you want? A public lynching?

[55CrushEm]

If this is the penalty, then I think it's a bit light......However, IMO it IS enough to deter them from doing it again....cause everyone knows IF they get caught again, it will be MUCH worse.....

Ultimately, that's what we all want....assurance that this **** will stop.

[OrangeShadow]

Im going to wait until tomorrow and know for sure

[Cito Pelon]

Im going to wait until tomorrow and know for sure

Yeah, I'll have to wait a little bit. I'm interested to hear exactly what the details are before I judge the penalty. I hope Goodell lays out all the facts - how many times have they been warned, what was Belichick's explanation, what incident led to the warning if there was in fact a warning. I'd like to hear Goodell speak about other allegations, the radio deal, but I doubt if he will if he doesn't have substantiation.

[TomServo]

out of all the sanctions discussed, i still like mine the best. make the pats do without the QB radio helmet for a season-or two.
that way the pats offensive signals will be open to the league to eyeball-Legally. make the paranoid belicheck even more paranoid. and taking the extra effort and time other teams wont have to deal with with open signal calling.

[stugotsII]

Nice and strong.

But I would have loved a win taken away.

[400HZ]

Goodell also needs to tear apart Gillette stadium to find all of the cheater's electronic eavesdropping equipment.

[DarkHorse30]

I agree, Pats should lose a win, along with draftpicks. I think the fine is stupid.....everybody that coaches or plays in the NFL can afford whatever fine they levy.

I've lost respect for the pats HC.....he should have at least apologized to the fans most of all. The ownership and their players probably don't care if they cheated; as long as it worked. The fans are the ones paying on this one....because every patriot victory, especially playoff wins and sb wins (where they rarely won by more than a figgie) comes into question now.

[ColoradoDarin]

Bellicheat needs to be suspended as well. $500k, a 1st & a 3rd (they don't have 2nd round IIRC - Welker trade) alone isn't enough.

[clint7]

Heck, he spends that much a month in cash and gifts to his various married lovers. :)

[Broncos123]

Profootballtalk.com is reporting that Belicheat maybe suspended.

POSTED 7:18 p.m. EDT, September 13, 2007
BELICHICK TO BE SUSPENDED?
Don Banks and Peter King of SI.com report that the NFL is considering the possibility of stripping a first-day pick from the New England Patriots (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm#), and also suspending coach Bill Belichick (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/09/13/belichick/index.html).
League sources told SI.com that Commissioner Roger Goodell (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm#) has not yet decided on a punishment. The determination will be announced on Friday.
One option that has been ruled out is forfeiture of Sunday's 38-14 win over the Jets.
Goodell is attempting to balance the punishment between the organization and Belichick. The draft pick that is taken from the team could be a first-rounder selection, and a multi-game suspension could be imposed on Belichick.
<HR width="85%" SIZE=1>

[55CrushEm]

Didn't see this posted, but it is along the lines of the post before this one....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/09/13/belichick/index.html

[Kaylore]

A first round and a fine is about what I expected. Bill getting suspended would be a bonus. If it's either scenario, once they pay their penance then I won't care anymore.

What's funny is even when they were cheating Shanahan sill owns the Patriots. Owned, owned and owned some more. :~ohyah!: :smashpats

[epicSocialism4tw]

The guy should be suspended.

[CHANGSTER]

I would take some picks and just plain count the Jets game as a TIE. Since theirs no sure way of knowing that without the call stealing they would have for sure lost the game. That solution seems to make the most sense.

[Kaylore]

PER NFL Network. Apparently if they make the playoffs they lose a first. If they don't, they lose a 2nd and a 3rd. Bill does not get suspended. The team fined $250,000 and Bill is fined $500,000

[epicSocialism4tw]

PER NFL Network. Apparently if they make the playoffs they lose a first. If they don't, they lose a 2nd and a 3rd. Bill does not get suspended. The team fined $250,000 and Bill is fined $500,000

That's a weak penalty for something that tarnishes every Patriots game from here to the tuck rule.

Although its a different sport, Mark Cuban is fined more than that for calling crooked refs crooked refs.

I guess that Goodell comes down harder on the players than the management.

[go_broncos]

PER NFL Network. Apparently if they make the playoffs they lose a first. If they don't, they lose a 2nd and a 3rd. Bill does not get suspended. The team fined $250,000 and Bill is fined $500,000

the punishment is vey less..

they should have suspended Belichick atleast 4 games.

[OrangeShadow]

so 750K total and draft picks

[CHANGSTER]

PER NFL Network. Apparently if they make the playoffs they lose a first. If they don't, they lose a 2nd and a 3rd. Bill does not get suspended. The team fined $250,000 and Bill is fined $500,000

Eh not bad, I still think my Tie idea is genius though

[Kaylore]

I pissed that they interrupted playbook to report it because they were about to go into a special on Jay Cutler. If they skip that part to report this then I will hate the Patriots for ever.:bomb:

...and it looks they are skipping it to run some stupid Chad Johnson sound clips.

I hate you, Patriots. I hate you.

[Rock Chalk]

Wont they show playbook again?

[400HZ]

So it's not THAT big of a deal if you cheat, but if you need some hormonal help to make your johnson work then you get slammed. Weak.

[Rock Chalk]

Unacceptable.

[Paladin]

I wonder if the whole communications stuff is still on the table......

[Kaylore]

Screw the Patriots! They interrupted Playbook on NFL network right before their segment on Jay Cutler to report the stupid fine! They're just going to move on over it! I hope the Patriots dies in a burning bus! I'm totally serious, they could have interrupted it at any time and they picked the Broncos segment. **** the Patriots.

[Rock Chalk]

Screw the Patriots! They interrupted Playbook on NFL network right before their segment on Jay Cutler to report the stupid fine! They're just going to move on over it! I hope the Patriots dies in a burning bus! I'm totally serious, they could have interrupted it at any time and they picked the Broncos segment. **** the Patriots.

THats very unMorman of you.

[Kaylore]

Wont they show playbook again?

It doesn't matter. It's like the Patriots still found some way to make their bad fortune annoy Bronco fans. They're going to pay for this.

[Kaylore]

THats very unMorman of you.

Well, I actually typed out the four stars. But let my message be heard!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Well, I actually typed out the four stars. But let my message be heard!

I dont think that the 4 stars were as unmormon as the death wish. ;D

[cabronco]

Thats much less than I thought he would get, although I will wait for all the details tomorrow. I think the team should get automatic 1st and 2nd picks taken away next year, BB fined 500,000 and suspended 6 to 8 games this year. JMHO

[Paladin]

De hammer done be almost down....

[epicSocialism4tw]

De hammer done be almost down....

This ain't a hammer.

It's a tap on the bottom and a verbal scolding.

[Rock Chalk]

Well, I actually typed out the four stars. But let my message be heard!

I was referring to wishing the Patsies to die in a burning bus.

[OrangeShadow]

It doesn't matter. It's like the Patriots still found some way to make their bad fortune annoy Bronco fans. They're going to pay for this.


Is playbook on NFL network? if so i dont get it anyway, somehow NFL network disappeared from my digital cable package

[TexanBob]

what the hell do you want? A public lynching?

Can it be Randy Moss? :afro: That would make most of us happy. Ha!

[Broncoman13]

Here's the real Deal!!!

BB to pay $500k

Patriots to pay $250k

Patriots to lose 1st round pick in 08 if they make the playoffs.

Patriots to lose 2nd and 3rd round picks in 08 if they do not make the playoffs.

[Kaylore]

I was referring to wishing the Patsies to die in a burning bus.

LOL Oh. Well that was hyperbole.

[CHANGSTER]

I wouldn't mind him getting suspended....Directly AFTER Sundays game!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Here's the real Deal!!!

BB to pay $500k

Patriots to pay $250k

Patriots to lose 1st round pick in 08 if they make the playoffs.

Patriots to lose 2nd and 3rd round picks in 08 if they do not make the playoffs.


Weak.

[Rock Chalk]

LOL Oh. Well that was hyperbole.

Yes well, St. Peter will know because he has that book that God writes in and stuff and its got EVERYTHING in there and I dont think he is going to buy the hyperbole business.

Go to hell, go directly to hell. DO not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

[Broncoman13]

Oops, sorry... didn't see it posted on the 3rd page.

[frerottenextelway]

500,000 and two high draft choices? what the hell do you want? A public lynching?

The Pete Rose penalty.

[frerottenextelway]

Here's the real Deal!!!

BB to pay $500k

Patriots to pay $250k

Patriots to lose 1st round pick in 08 if they make the playoffs.

Patriots to lose 2nd and 3rd round picks in 08 if they do not make the playoffs.

Great, so they can look back on all of this and say ''yeah, it was worth it''.

[That One Guy]

This is all being overblown, the penalty is sufficient and Mangina didn't have a problem with this tactic when he was a Patsy assistant.

For those saying the penalty isn't sever enough, when was the last time a team ever lost picks comparable to what they're gonna take?

[PatsWin2002]

I wonder if we're still filming this week. ;)

[Xenos]

PER NFL Network. Apparently if they make the playoffs they lose a first. If they don't, they lose a 2nd and a 3rd. Bill does not get suspended. The team fined $250,000 and Bill is fined $500,000

They're going to make the playoffs anyways. But I was wondering how they would pay if they didn't make the playoffs. Didn't they already give up their
2nd rounder?

[cutthemdown]

i think that would be plenty of punishement. Its enough to make other teams think twice before they do it, but not too much to where it's a death sentence. Pats do have 2 first rounders but losing one of them is still a blow.

[Malcontent]

So it's not THAT big of a deal if you cheat, but if you need some hormonal help to make your johnson work then you get slammed. Weak.

Rep.

[SoCalBronco]

If this happened to the Donks, SoCal would be furious.

If the league took our first rounder from us, I'd probably need a good 70-80 hours of professional counseling.

[TexanBob]

Patriots to lose 1st round pick in 08 if they make the playoffs.

Patriots to lose 2nd and 3rd round picks in 08 if they do not make the playoffs.

This part I really don't like. What they did isn't made worse by making the playoffs. They should come down with one punishment and stick with it, not make it hang over the playoff race like a cloud. In fact, if the Pats just miss the playoffs, there may be allegations they dumped the game so as not to give up the first (although, as a veteran of Charley Casserly drafts I can tell you giving up a second and a third is worse than giving up a first). I'm sure the NFL will like the added publicity in December reminding everyone that the Patriots cheated to get there.

My punishment would have been:

1. Forfeiture of last week's win.
2. Fine the team a sum between $500,000 and $1,000,000.
3. Loss of regular third-round choice in 2008.
4. Loss of any compensatory picks due for free agents lost for the 2008 draft.

[Bob]

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/sports/14109617/detail.html

Source: NFL To Fine Belichick, Pats
Coach To Pay $500,000

BOSTON -- The NFL is planning to punish the New England Patriots and the team's coach, Bill Belichick, after the team got caught taping signals during the Jets game, sources confirmed Thursday.

SportsCenter 5's Mike Lynch reported that a decision will be announced Friday, but sources have said the NFL is going to fine Belichick $500,000. The fine has to be paid by Belichick himself and cannot be paid by the team's owner, Robert Kraft.

In addition to the fine, the Patriots must forfeit two high draft choices. They could be as high as a first- and a third-round draft choice, sources said.

A letter will be faxed to Belichick telling him of the NFL's decision, and he will not be required to appear in person at the NFL headquarters in New York City.

The controversy started when a Patriots cameraman was caught videotaping a New York Jets coach's signals during last weekend's season-opening game.

In a news conference Wednesday, Belichick issued a terse written statement before his regular weekly team news conference saying, "Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league's decision, I will have further comment."

Belichick indicated he may have misinterpreted the National Football League's rules regarding recording games.

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner (Roger) Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling," Belichick said.

The Patriots were accused of spying during Sunday's game against the New York Jets by Jets coach Eric Mangini. NFL security officials confiscated a video camera from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the sideline Sunday.

How could this moron misinterpret the rule of video taping signals? I am glad he is being stuck.

[Needa Pass Rush]

NFL Fines Belichick, Patriots $750,000 For Spying

Pats To Lose 2008 1st Round Pick If They Make Playoffs

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(CBS) NEW YORK The NFL has fined New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick and the team a total of $750,000 for videotaping an opponent's signals. The team also has been told to forfeit draft choices.

The Pats were caught videotaping the New York Jets' defensive signals during last Sunday's 38-14 win at the Meadowlands.

CBS 2 HD has learned Belichick was hit with a $500,000 fine by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell. The team will have to hand over $250,000.

The Patriots will also have to forfeit at least one draft pick in 2008, but that will depend on how they finish this season. If they make the playoffs, they will lose a first-round pick. If they don't make the postseason, they will give up their second-and third-round picks.

Belichick will not be suspended.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell said in a letter to the Patriots.

The videotaping came to light after a camera was confiscated from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella while he was on the Jets' sideline during New England's 38-14 win last Sunday at Giants Stadium. Goodell will not change the outcome of the game.

Goodell said he had considered suspending Belichick but didn't "largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension."

New England, strengthened by the addition of Randy Moss and two other first-rate wide receivers as well as linebacker Adalius Thomas, is considered one of the favorites to win the Super Bowl for the fourth time since the 2001 season. If the Patriots lose their first-rounder next season they still will have a first-round pick, obtained from San Francisco in the deal that brought Moss from Oakland.

NFL rules state "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game" and that all video or coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

That was re-emphasized in a memo sent Sept. 6 to NFL head coaches and general managers. In it, Ray Anderson, the league's executive vice president of football operations wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

The NFL statement said Goodell believed Patriots owner Robert Kraft was unaware of Belichick's actions.

But it said the commissioner believed penalties should be imposed on the club because "Coach Belichick not only serves as the head coach but also has substantial control over all aspects of New England's football operations. His actions and decisions are properly attributed to the club."

NFL coaches long have suspected opponents of spying. In the early 1970s, the late George Allen, coach of the Washington Redskins, routinely would send a security man into the woods surrounding the team's practice facility because he suspected there were spies from other teams there.

And coaches like Seattle's Mike Holmgren and Philadelphia's Andy Reid, among others, always cover their mouths when calling plays from the sideline because they fear other teams have lip readers trying to determine their calls.

The action against Belichick is the latest in a series of harsh disciplinary actions taken by Goodell, who took office last Sept. 1, succeeding Paul Tagliabue.

The most notable were the indefinite suspension of Atlanta quarterback Michael Vick after he pleaded guilty to a federal dogfighting conspiracy and the one-year suspension of Tennessee cornerback Adam "Pacman" Jones after numerous run-ins with police.

Please stay with CBS 2 HD and wcbstv.com for more on this developing story.

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_256202835.html

**** I left the link for openly gay celbs in there for Bob and the others in the foxhole. Ha!

[Atwater His Ass]

Keep in mind this punishment would just be for the filiming. If the other allegations turn out to be true, I'm sure the league will come down even harder.

The only thing that upsets me about this is that Goodell has stated that he is not only holding the league and the players to a higher standard now, but that the coaches would be held to an even higher standard than the players. That was part of the reasoning behhind the Cowboy's coach suspension with the HGH. This ruling is very weak imo, if your goal is to acheive this higher standard.

But at least it's something. Losing a first round pick is a big deal, even if you have 2 already. The monetary fines mean nothing. I'm still holding out hope for a Belichick suspension too.

[Bob]

The radio keeps saying things like "two draft picks, one possibly a first rounder".

I don't know what to believe yet. I posted once I had a link and ran with it. :)

I just heard the figure of 750,000 on the radio -- not 500,000. (this may be posted already)

[Malcontent]

Keep in mind this punishment would just be for the filiming. If the other allegations turn out to be true, I'm sure the league will come down even harder.

The only thing that upsets me about this is that Goodell has stated that he is not only holding the league and the players to a higher standard now, but that the coaches would be held to an even higher standard than the players. That was part of the reasoning behhind the Cowboy's coach suspension with the HGH. This ruling is very weak imo, if your goal is to acheive this higher standard.

But at least it's something. Losing a first round pick is a big deal, even if you have 2 already. The monetary fines mean nothing. I'm still holding out hope for a Belichick suspension too.



Losing a 1st rounder is serious bizz here. That means that 1 blue chipper goes from your team, to another. A few years down the road will tell, but it could be huge.

[Bob]

I would take some picks and just plain count the Jets game as a TIE. Since theirs no sure way of knowing that without the call stealing they would have for sure lost the game. That solution seems to make the most sense.

Screw that...This is meant as a punishment -- he should have the W erased -- that's what matters to him -- thats what will change future thoughts of trying it again.

[Rock Chalk]

You know why this is weak? The fine is no big deal. The draft pick? They got TWO FIRST ROUNDERS ANYWAY. So now they got one, woe is me.

Patriots got off scott free on this.

[cutthemdown]

I wonder if we're still filming this week. ;)

They will have to or lose.

[Rock Chalk]

Screw that...This is meant as a punishment -- he should have the W erased -- that's what matters to him -- thats what will change future thoughts of trying it again.

So who has the authority to change the outcome of a game after its played again?

Oh that's right, no one.

[TexanBob]

Frankly, If I were Mangini, I would have handled this entirely differently.

The first rule of war is to never reveal that you know what they think they know until you exploit it.

Aware their signals were stolen in the first game, the Jets stay with the same signals in the first quarter of the rematch to establish the signals haven't changed since the spy game.

Then you call a play you know they saw, like a dive play into the line, then fake it and go deep. Next, set up a play that they saw before was a screen. Play act like you are running the screen and then do a naked bootleg or a throw away from the screen.

There's about 10 different ways you can screw them up if they are reading your signals instead of reacting to the play. Beat them doing that and THEN turn them in.

[PatsWin2002]

You know why this is weak? The fine is no big deal. The draft pick? They got TWO FIRST ROUNDERS ANYWAY. So now they got one, woe is me.

Patriots got off scott free on this.

What is the big deal with giving up the 32nd pick? ??? :wiggle:

[Paladin]

But it is so much more public and fun this way.....

[El Minion]

Link (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7222570)

Fines total $750K for Patriots, Belichick

/ Associated Press
Posted: 4 minutes ago
New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for spying on an opponent's defensive signals.
Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year's first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell said in a letter to the Patriots.

The videotaping came to light after a camera was confiscated from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella while he was on the New York Jets' sideline during New England's 38-14 win last Sunday at Giants Stadium. Goodell will not change the outcome of the game.

Goodell said he had considered suspending Belichick but didn't "largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension."


New England, strengthened by the addition of Randy Moss and two other first-rate wide receivers as well as linebacker Adalius Thomas, is considered one of the favorites to win the Super Bowl for the fourth time since the 2001 season. If the Patriots lose their first-rounder next season they still will have a first-round pick, obtained from San Francisco in the deal that brought Moss from Oakland.

NFL rules state "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game" and that all video or coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

That was re-emphasized in a memo sent Sept. 6 to NFL head coaches and general managers. In it, Ray Anderson, the league's executive vice president of football operations wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

The NFL statement said Goodell believed Patriots owner Robert Kraft was unaware of Belichick's actions.

But it said the commissioner believed penalties should be imposed on the club because "Coach Belichick not only serves as the head coach but also has substantial control over all aspects of New England's football operations. His actions and decisions are properly attributed to the club."

NFL coaches long have suspected opponents of spying. In the early 1970s, the late George Allen, coach of the Washington Redskins, routinely would send a security man into the woods surrounding the team's practice facility because he suspected there were spies from other teams there.

And coaches like Seattle's Mike Holmgren and Philadelphia's Andy Reid, among others, always cover their mouths when calling plays from the sideline because they fear other teams have lip readers trying to determine their calls.

The action against Belichick is the latest in a series of harsh disciplinary actions taken by Goodell, who took office last Sept. 1, succeeding Paul Tagliabue.

The most notable were the indefinite suspension of Atlanta quarterback Michael Vick after he pleaded guilty to a federal dogfighting conspiracy and t

[Crowpointer]

I wonder if we're still filming this week. ;)

My seats are literally 5 feet in front of the visiting radio team . I plan on wearing my hoodie and bringing a cardboard video camera. I'm sure it will be a circus like the Sox game with the blond masks when ARod came to town. I know from other sites that there will be a lot of fake cameras and signs. We can now focus on football even if we had to give up 750k and the 32nd pick.;)

[El Minion]

Posted in this thread (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=60670)


Fines total $750K for Patriots, Belichick

/ Associated Press
Posted: 4 minutes ago
New England coach Bill Belichick was fined the NFL maximum of $500,000 Thursday and the Patriots were ordered to pay $250,000 for spying on an opponent's defensive signals.
Commissioner Roger Goodell also ordered the team to give up next year's first-round draft choice if it reaches the playoffs and second- and third-round picks if it doesn't.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell said in a letter to the Patriots.

The videotaping came to light after a camera was confiscated from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella while he was on the New York Jets' sideline during New England's 38-14 win last Sunday at Giants Stadium. Goodell will not change the outcome of the game.

Goodell said he had considered suspending Belichick but didn't "largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension."


New England, strengthened by the addition of Randy Moss and two other first-rate wide receivers as well as linebacker Adalius Thomas, is considered one of the favorites to win the Super Bowl for the fourth time since the 2001 season. If the Patriots lose their first-rounder next season they still will have a first-round pick, obtained from San Francisco in the deal that brought Moss from Oakland.

NFL rules state "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game" and that all video or coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

That was re-emphasized in a memo sent Sept. 6 to NFL head coaches and general managers. In it, Ray Anderson, the league's executive vice president of football operations wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

The NFL statement said Goodell believed Patriots owner Robert Kraft was unaware of Belichick's actions.

But it said the commissioner believed penalties should be imposed on the club because "Coach Belichick not only serves as the head coach but also has substantial control over all aspects of New England's football operations. His actions and decisions are properly attributed to the club."

NFL coaches long have suspected opponents of spying. In the early 1970s, the late George Allen, coach of the Washington Redskins, routinely would send a security man into the woods surrounding the team's practice facility because he suspected there were spies from other teams there.

And coaches like Seattle's Mike Holmgren and Philadelphia's Andy Reid, among others, always cover their mouths when calling plays from the sideline because they fear other teams have lip readers trying to determine their calls.

The action against Belichick is the latest in a series of harsh disciplinary actions taken by Goodell, who took office last Sept. 1, succeeding Paul Tagliabue.

The most notable were the indefinite suspension of Atlanta quarterback Michael Vick after he pleaded guilty to a federal dogfighting conspiracy and t

[DomCasual]

Screw that...This is meant as a punishment -- he should have the W erased -- that's what matters to him -- thats what will change future thoughts of trying it again.

They weren't going to make them forfeit the game. That was never going to be on the table as an option. Publicly, the NFL condemns betting. Privately, it is the proverbial hand that feeds them. Reversing the outcome of the game would have been biting the hand that feeds them.

[UboBronco]

I would have liked the way Goodell handled the situation, if what he did also included a 3 or 4 game suspension for Bill.... He will suspend players, and yes, the money may be about the same, but it is the humiliation and the "staying totally away part" that would have made a difference and an impact. I also think it should have been the first pick they have in the draft, so that it hurt the most, which probably would be the one from the 49er's. I hope this also means they lose the cap space, so they cannot use it on a free agent to fill a spot...

[Jens1893]

What is the big deal with giving up the 32nd pick? ??? :wiggle:

When did we trade you our pick?

[gunns]

The F1 McClaren team was just fined 100 mil and points taken away for spying.

[UboBronco]

When did we trade you our pick?

Very true Jen.... The lady is right again...

[DomCasual]

The only disappointment I have with the punishment is that it doesn't include a suspension of Belichick. I was hoping they would give him at least two games. I wasn't a huge fan of him before, but now I can't stand him. Again, that isn't so much that he did this. It's the way he did it. He's a smug little prick.

The best thing to come out of all of this will be that the Patriots won't be golden child anymore. And, as much as their fans will hate to hear it, there will be a shadow cast over their three Lombardi Trophies. I don't know that that's fair, but it's the way it is.

[Bronco Billy]

I didn't think the monetary fine would have been as steep, but I did think that they would have suspended Belicheck for a few games. There was no way that they would of forfeited the game to the Jets. As for the draft pick, I think it should of just been a constant, regardless of how well they play this year. A first seems fair, assuming they make the playoffs.

[PatsRule]

What was the punishment when the Broncos circumvented the salary cap ?

[phillybroncosnut]

I say Bullchit. There should have been at the very least a 2-4 game suspension. Everything else I am okay with but, definately a suspension was in order.

[PatsWin2002]

What was the punishment when the Broncos circumvented the salary cap ?

The rest of the country had to watch the Broncos win 2 Lombardis.

Not sure what else......















Hilarious!

[~Crash~]

the money is not crap! hell hand slap at best . they got away with it IMO !!! 3 SB's was pretty cheap hell bilacheat has got how many raises because he is a gienuss . this is nothing they got away with it complety .

[Atwater His Ass]

What was the punishment when the Broncos circumvented the salary cap ?

How did they circumvent the cap?

[ColoradoDarin]

The rest of the country had to watch the Broncos win 2 Lombardis.

Not sure what else......















Hilarious!

When did you morph into a troll?

[PatsRule]

How did they circumvent the cap?

Your kidding right ?

[Atwater His Ass]

Your kidding right ?

No. Please provide me a link that shows how Denver circumvented the salary cap and it's affect our Super Bowl years.

[PatsWin2002]

When did you morph into a troll?

It's been a long few days for Pats fans. I feel that kind of relief you feel when you finish your last final exam before summer ......even though you know you got a D. Ha!

Just firing back a bit is all .....let me have my damn fun, huh?

[ColoradoDarin]

It's been a long few days for Pats fans. I feel that kind of relief you feel when you finish your last final exam before summer ......even though you know you got a D. Ha!

Just firing back a bit is all .....let me have my damn fun, huh?

More like you finally get your sentence from the judge and it's just community service and a fine instead of pound me in the *** prison... Hilarious!

I don't know how Belicheat avoided suspension.

[400HZ]

If I was that cowboys coach with the limp weiner, I would be appealing my punishment immediately.

[PatsRule]

No. Please provide me a link that shows how Denver circumvented the salary cap and it's affect our Super Bowl years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html

[DomCasual]

Your kidding right ?

Seriously, I know you don't (and won't) get it, but you are making yourself look stupid. You obviously don't understand the circumstances, and are repeating the ignorant sound bytes you've read from imbeciles like Bill Simmons.

[Atwater His Ass]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html

And how did this affect building our Super Bowl teams? What competitve advantage did we recieve from this? Were able to sign players we couldn't otherwise? Please elaborate.

[PatsRule]

Seriously, I know you don't (and won't) get it, but you are making yourself look stupid. You obviously don't understand the circumstances, and are repeating the ignorant sound bytes you've read from imbeciles like Bill Simmons.

Was the team Penalized by the NFL or not ?

[PatsRule]

And how did this affect building our Super Bowl teams? What competitve advantage did we recieve from this? Were able to sign players we couldn't otherwise? Please elaborate.

Is it Cheating yes or no ?

[Atwater His Ass]

Is it Cheating yes or no ?

Again. Define the competive advantage or advantages we gained from this.

[PatsRule]

Again. Define the competive advantage or advantages we gained from this.

Again did the Broncos do something that violated NFL rules ? it's a simple question

[Atwater His Ass]

can you not answer the question? for example, did that money count against the cap or not? you are the one making allegations, so im just asking you to prove your case that you claim.

and after you answer those questions, if you can, please draw the parallels to the pats current situation and how these are or are not similar.

until then, you have no case.

[PatsRule]

You guys justify breaking the rules when your own team does it.

[PatsRule]

can you not answer the question? for example, did that money count against the cap or not? you are the one making allegations, so im just asking you to prove your case that you claim.

Did Bill Belichek use the video in the Jets game ?

The Camera was taken in the 1st quarter

Does it really matter they got caught just like the Broncos and that is all that matters..

What's fair is fair The Broncos were guilty not according to me but the NFL

[Rock Chalk]

You guys justify breaking the rules when your own team does it.

Do you even know what happened? No. Shut the **** up.

[Atwater His Ass]

so you can't answer becase you don't know or you do know and are just stupid.

[Inkana7]

Oh ****, PatsRule is here. Ban him how. He's the worst troll I've ever had the misfortune to meet. He's so ****ing stupid. He posts drivel and can't listen to logic. Ignore him. He's more annoying than Bob.

[DomCasual]

Was the team Penalized by the NFL or not ?

Let me ask you a question. Does the NFL give out fines for issues that don't involve giving a competitive advantage to a team or player? Surely, you're not telling me that because the Broncos were penalized, it automatically means they cheated. That would be dumb. When the NFL fines a player for the playing with their jersey untucked, are they fining him because his untucked jersey made him a better player? No, they are fining him because they don't like the way he is representing the business of the NFL.

Similarly, the penalties you reference have nothing to do with anyone cheating. There have been countless posts here about this subject. It had to do with the NFL disagreeing with the way Pat Bowlen was financing the business side of the Denver Broncos.

From the article you referenced: "The investigation resulted in the discovery of undisclosed agreements between the club and Broncos players during the same period [1996-1998] pursuant to which various players agreed to defer certain compensation in exchange for a commitment to pay interest on the deferred amounts," (Harold) Henderson (the chairman of the Management Council and the NFL's executive vice president of labor relations) said in the statement. "These agreements were plainly designed to help the club cope with seasonal cash flow problems exacerbated by the Broncos' need to fund front-end expenditures associated with development of the new stadium in Denver."

I'll spell that out for you. It had nothing to do with cheating. It had nothing to do with giving the Broncos a leg up on the likes of the Patriots. It was a business thing - a one-time issue directly related to the cost of construction of Invesco Field. Pat Bowlen had to come up with a chunk of cash to pay for his portion of the stadium. He basically structured the contracts of Terrell Davis and John Elway in such a way that he was borrowing money from them to help pay the bill.

The NFL doesn't like its teams paying bills on credit, because they don't want to ever have to deal with insolvent teams down the road. So yes, they were penalized by the NFL in the form of a couple draft picks. No, it had nothing to do with the product they were putting on the field. Show me a single quote from an NFL official where they say the Broncos somehow gained an advantage over other teams by the way they handled the salary cap. I will gladly eat my words.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Jesus, the Pats fans have managed to overtake every other fanbase (Cowboys, Chargers and Dolphins included) as the most ignorant in just a matter of days.

Congratulations, ladies.

Your knowledge of the NFL starts in the early 2000's.

[Broncoman13]

Oh ****, PatsRule is here. Ban him how. He's the worst troll I've ever had the misfortune to meet. He's so ****ing stupid. He posts drivel and can't listen to logic. Ignore him. He's more annoying than Bob.


Another long lost brother for Taco John!!! He loves him already!

[Turf Shaman]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html

Did you read the article. First of all, the only person in the article making a claim that the Broncos gained a competitive advantage with the cap violations is.... *drum roll*... Al Davis. It goes without saying that anyone who takes Al Davis seriously is probably the type to fall for Nigerian email scams. Then there is this:

Harold Henderson, the chairman of the Management Council and the NFL's executive vice president of labor relations, confirmed in a written statement released by the league that "the individuals responsible for the violations are no longer with the team" and that the Broncos "have been cooperative throughout the investigation." Henderson did not directly address the issue of whether the club gained a competitive advantage but said the Broncos circumvented the cap to help pay for costs related to the construction of Invesco Field at Mile High.

So the motive behind deferring the payments was to help with the financial situation with regards to the construction of the stadium. If you want to insist this is analogous to video taping signals to gain a clear competitive advantage, feel free to embarrass yourself.

[DomCasual]

Again did the Broncos do something that violated NFL rules ? it's a simple question

You honestly cannot be this stupid.

Let's look at three fines the NFL might give out:

1) An end zone celebration.

2) A coach being critical of the officials.

3) A team piping in extra crowd noise when it's opponents have the ball.

Do you see a difference in these three? Because the NFL gave fines in all three, does that make them all equal? Numbers one and two deal with the public relations side of the league. The NFL is big business, and it is operated as such. Number three has to do with a team trying to gain an unfair advantage over its opponents. That is not business-related. It is related to the actual game itself.

The Broncos punishment was business-related. The Patriots punishment was game-related. The Broncos did something the league thought was a poor financial decision. The Patriots did something the league considered cheating. If you can't differentiate between the two - well, you're not very smart.

[PatsWin2002]

As promised, BB made a post-ruling statement:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/

September 13, 2007
Belichick statement
By Mike Reiss, Globe Staff
Patriots coach Bill Belichick released the following statement tonight:

"I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight's ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused. I also apologize to Patriots fans and would like to thank them for their support during the past few days and throughout my career.

"As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress.

"Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect.

"With tonight’s resolution, I will not be offering any further comments on this matter. We are moving on with our preparations for Sunday’s game."

[NaptownChief]

Given the penalty handed out to Wade Wilson for trying to medically get his pecker to stand up this seems pretty damn mild on BB for completely cheating the integrity of the game.

[PatsWin2002]

Belichick may now run the risk of having an erection lasting more than 4 hours - so it evens out.

[NaptownChief]

Belichick may now run the risk of having an erection lasting more than 4 hours - so it evens out.


Hopefully he is not too stubborn to see a physician if that happens.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Up until this point I had pretty much resisted the urge to pile on the Patriots for things people said about them, even including Belichick banging some other guys wife, mainly because I felt it was (mostly) other fans looking for an opportunity to vent sour grapes or jealousy over their success and the fact that winners make a more convenient target.

That is no longer true. I've definitely lost a lot of respect for this organization and their fans. Belichick saying he "missinterpreted" the NFL's policy on video taping opponents signals assumes we're all just freaking stupid. I'd have more respect for him if he just admitted he acted dishonestly and appologized.

And while Denver did act outside the bounds of NFL regulations....anybody with half a brain can tell that there is a distinct difference between these two sets of circumstances.

[boltaneer]

As promised, BB made a post-ruling statement:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/

September 13, 2007
Belichick statement
By Mike Reiss, Globe Staff
Patriots coach Bill Belichick released the following statement tonight:

"I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight's ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused. I also apologize to Patriots fans and would like to thank them for their support during the past few days and throughout my career.

"As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress.

"Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect.

"With tonight’s resolution, I will not be offering any further comments on this matter. We are moving on with our preparations for Sunday’s game."

Wow. With statements like that, I think the Hobo has a bright future as a politician after football.

[snowtrx]

I don't get it. That Pats broke a rule that gave them a competitive advantage. The only thing debatable is the size of this advantage and how they used it. For this, BB gets $500k, Pats $250k, and a late 1st rounder. Broncos comitt their accounting manipulation that supposibly did not give them a competitive advantage....twice...and get almost 2 million in fines and two 3rds ??? Did I read that right? Does anyone besides Bowlen (or other Broncos) state that this did not give us a competive advantage?

[snowtrx]

Wow. With statements like that, I think the Hobo has a bright future as a politician after football.

ROFL!
I couldnt help think the same thing while reading it.

[Binkythefrog]

I think that a suspension would be an even lighter slap on the wrist.

So what if he can't coach during the game. His coordinators I am sure are good enough to call plays effectively on Sunday, and there is no way to enforce his suspension during the week, he can easily call into headquarters and contribute to game planning.

I think the draft picks are a good penalty.

[Turf Shaman]

Does anyone besides Bowlen (or other Broncos) state that this did not give us a competive advantage?

Not exactly, but the NFL rep Harold Henderson quoted in the Washington Post piece did state that the actions helped pay for the costs of building Invesco Field. This would be the obvious motivation for it. So if an NFL rep acknowledges that motivation in a written statement, it would be a stretch for even the most ardent Bronco basher to suggest there was also a dual motivation for signing players they would not have been able to sign otherwise.

[400HZ]

<--- ZERO respect for the Patriots or their lying, cheating coach. I can't wait until Sunday.

[snowtrx]

So if an NFL rep acknowledges that motivation in a written statement, it would be a stretch for even the most ardent Bronco basher to suggest there was also a dual motivation for signing players they would not have been able to sign otherwise.

With Pats fans dragging our name through the mud with them recently, I finally got to see the details of our penalty. The size of our monotary penalty is just draw dropping compared to the Pats and the NFL rep wouldnt even comment on if it gave us a competitive advantage. Although I do believe in Bowlen and that cashflow was needed for the stadium, I still can't help think about the timing being John's last chance. For me, I'm not gonna be too harsh in my judgement on the Pats and their SB's.

$500k plus two games for BB. $500k and loss of 1st rnd for the Pats. That would seem more fit to me.

[snowtrx]

<--- ZERO respect for the Patriots or their lying, cheating coach. I can't wait until Sunday.

But you LOVE your lying cheating OLB! Hypo :thumbsup:

[DomCasual]

"As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress.

What a load of crap. Gee, Bill, it didn't affect the outcome of a 38-14 game? You think? I'm glad you see it that way - you'll probably sleep better tonight. What I (and every other non-Patriot fan in America) am wondering is how much it affected much closer games: like, maybe, Patriots 20, Rams 17 (SB XXXVI); or Patriots 32, Panthers 29 (SB XXXVIII); or Patriots 24, Eagles 21 (SB XXXIX). Do I think your cheating could be worth 24 points in a game? Not a chance. Do I think it might be worth 3? Maybe. And "maybe' isn't very good when a team's/coach's legacy is in question.

"Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect.

I can see how it's confusing - it's such a gray area. Who could possibly clearly interpret this: "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." And this is especially confusing: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

The Patriots will survive the penalties they've been given. Unfortunately, their legacy won't. Clearly, a legacy is something important to Bill Belichick. Apparently, his ego is more important. Otherwise, he would not be issuing weak apologies utterly lacking in any concrete acceptance of blame.

[Bronco Yoda]

I knew the Pats would get away with it. Just like I told my Pats friends, "I don't want to ever hear you complain about Colts special treatment ever again".

BB should have been suspended for at least 4 games to show his players, his staff and everyone else that what he did was wrong. but cut the fine in half if you must.

WHY IS THERE A CONDITION FOR MAKING THE PLAYOFFS? This is crazy.

Only ONE first pick. PEOPLE... for those who don't know, the pats have 2 first day picks so they're only sent back back to scratch with everyone else. ooh big penalty here!

If they don't make the playoffs they don't even lose a first day pick.

It should have been multiple year picks or both 08 #1's. (if they would have had only 1'st rounder then I would have only called for the one #1 pick)

So Pats have managed to morph into a combination of raider and colts. They get special treatment like the colts and the team and their now trolling fans act like the raiders.

interesting...

[broncocalijohn]

For how tough it might have seen on paper, they do have a pick from 49ers in the first round and possibly a 3rd rounder from the Bears. Their picks should not be based on if they make the playoffs. No rewarding based on bad play. All 3 picks should have been taken away. Did he get suspended for a few games? Seems that should have been automatic.

[BroncoBuff]

I think that a suspension would be an even lighter slap on the wrist.
Goodell is righteous - he hits hard, and he hits fast! None of this two-week Gene Washington appeals crap. Roger brings the hammer down :chairhit:

First the most visible player ... now the most visible franchise. Goodell has been tested and he has responded with flying colors.

[fontaine]

Man, to have the respect of three super bowls wiped away in one single fraudelent, cheating moment. It must be pretty embaressing right about now for any Pats fans, players etc. I mean it's not like this is the first time they were caught cheating.

They were warned about it last year and were stupid enough to keep on doing it and get caught out again.

Enjoy those super bowl trophies***.

[Atwater His Ass]

I can understand why some people may think the loss of a 1st rounder isn't enough. But I dont' understand the logic that since NE has put themselves in a position through trades to have 2 1st rounders that this penalty isn't enough?

It's not the leagues fault they have 2 1st round picks. I'm actually pretty surprised they are even planning (playoffs to determine) on taking one of those away.

[Rock Chalk]

I can understand why some people may think the loss of a 1st rounder isn't enough. But I dont' understand the logic that since NE has put themselves in a position through trades to have 2 1st rounders that this penalty isn't enough?

It's not the leagues fault they have 2 1st round picks. I'm actually pretty surprised they are even planning (playoffs to determine) on taking one of those away.

Man, a first round draft choice is not enough even if they only had 1.

A coaching suspension and loss of all draft picks in this years draft AND the fine would have been a much more fitting punishment.

And I gaurantee you that would stop the cheating league wide this week.

[Beantown Bronco]

"As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress.

I love it. Whenever someone gets caught, it's always the first time they did it.

If they've never used it to gain an advantage during the game, then why was the guy caught trying to get inside the Pats' locker room at halftime? Was he just gonna hang out and take his time downloading all the info, and then wait until the next time they played to use it? Please....

[TailgateNut]

What a crock of dung. Bellicheater must be creaming in his sweats.
IMO he has tarnished not only the Jets win, but also the Patriot SB trophies, and the game of Football. He got off way too easy for the infraction. Being warned and repeating a violation of NFL rules should have cost him the job.

Patriots=The BarryBonds of the NFL!

[fontaine]

Good point. I'm going to start calling them the New England Barriots!

:~ohyah!:

[defenseman]

BB and the patriots got off too light. Simple as that....dman

*I'm thinking that EVERY team they play, along with the NFL, will be watching them like a hawk. And, every team they play will scratch the wireless headset and go to another form of communications. Funny how "comms" go down at very inopportune moments for the visiting teams at Gilette as has been discussed on various radio shows throughout the country. Superbowls? You bet they are in question. I would think numerous sports afficienado's are pouring through the tapes available as we post, looking for the tell-tale "cheater" signs to eventually rain down on BB and Brady's boys....looking forward to it.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

The Pats will get the Barry Bonds treatment for every road game.

[Beantown Bronco]

Interesting punishment.

The league must've certainly caught the Raiders doing something worse. How else do you explain them losing their first round pick this year, even though they didn't make the playoffs? Not to mention they also got fined over $30,000,000.

[AlienBronco]

To me the NFL is sending the wrong message with this slap in the wrist, now watch all NFL team go high tech spying(now that the price for spying is known).Teams wouldn't think twice in hightech spying to cheat their way into the playoff and the superbowl.

[PatsWin2002]

After the Patriots win 12+ games this year this will mostly be forgotten.

[ayjackson]

Wow, I thought it was a tough penalty. Every team in the league tries to steal defensive signals, only some use a sideline camera. It's the use of a camera that illegal, not the stealing of signals - let's not confuse that. Interstingly, there's video surfacing of a Jets employee carrying a camera around the Jets sideline (in clear violation of NFL rules) and filming while the Patsies were on defense. Belichick is Mangini's mentor, I'm sure he taught him everything!! These two are playing games with each other (tampering, use of video, signing each others cuts) and it should be interesting to see the next move.

[BMF Bronco]

I beleive the pats have 5 first day picks in the upcoming draft, including two first rounders, so no real loss there.

Furthermore, I don't know if it's been said yet, as I am too lazy to read through six pages, but if taping the signals led to no competitive advantage, then why the hell do it?!

[defenseman]

I beleive the pats have 5 first day picks in the upcoming draft, including two first rounders, so no real loss there.

Furthermore, I don't know if it's been said yet, as I am too lazy to read through six pages, but if taping the signals led to no competitive advantage, then why the hell do it?!

SC @ the huskers tomorrow. Here there may be a bit of precip during the game. Looking forward to it..dman

*I'm thinking it's a recruiting day visit tomorrow. Here they haven't lost on a recruiting day in quite a while..

[BMF Bronco]

SC @ the huskers tomorrow. Here there may be a bit of precip during the game. Looking forward to it..dman

*I'm thinking it's a recruiting day visit tomorrow. Here they haven't lost on a recruiting day in quite a while..

Hell take me, I will re-enlist!

GO BIG RED!!!!!

Okay sorry, wrong thread.

[AlienBronco]

To those who think that this was a tough penalty, think how much a Superbowl title is worth to a NFL team, coach or player, remember that winning one game in the playoff by hightech spying(against NFL rules) can put you in the Superbowl.

[TheDave]

After the Patriots win 12+ games this year this will mostly be forgotten.

I agree...

On the other hand, God help you if you go 9-7. Everyone will point and say "look they aren't so special when they don't cheat."

Gonna be interesting to watch either way.

[NaptownChief]

After the Patriots win 12+ games this year this will mostly be forgotten.



Possible...but if they struggle from this point forward then absolutely all their accomplishments will be extremely tarnished even more so as everyone will be saying "so I guess they aren't that good when they don't know the other teams set on every play..."

[NaptownChief]

I agree...

On the other hand, God help you if you go 9-7. Everyone will point and say "look they aren't so special when they don't cheat."

Gonna be interesting to watch either way.


The good minds think alike.

[400HZ]

After the Patriots win 12+ games this year this will mostly be forgotten.

You'd be surprised.

Merriman popped for roids a year ago, but people still yank that cord every chance they get. Merriman is just one guy. The thing with the Patsies is an entire organization doing basically the same thing Merriman or Harrison did (cheating to gain an unfair competitive advantage.) I'm betting that the camera gate thing will be remembered for a good while longer than Merriman's deal.

[ScottXray]

The penalty was a slap on the wrist, for the weakness of it. Goodall didn't come down hard enough.

Bellicheck should have gotten 4 game suspension , fine as it is, Patriots 1 million fine and loss of 1st 2nd and thirds reagardless of season results. I base this on what WE got fined for a cap violation that didn't have any on field result possible!

Patriots now have to have asterisk assigned to their SB wins, which is a shame , since know one will know except Billychek, and others ..

Wonder who will write the tell-all book some day!:spit:

[fontaine]

After the Patriots win 12+ games this year this will mostly be forgotten.

The Barriots probably will win a lot of games this year.

Instead of fresh film they'll just have to go back and analyze stock footage from last couple of seasons to get the "competitive edge" over their opponents.

:wiggle:

[AlienBronco]

Like they say, Goodall fumbles the ball!(to hot to handle.)

[Old Dude]

Here's the real Deal!!!

BB to pay $500k

Patriots to pay $250k

Patriots to lose 1st round pick in 08 if they make the playoffs.

Patriots to lose 2nd and 3rd round picks in 08 if they do not make the playoffs.


Just curious as to the reasoning behind the draft penalty. Why should it make any difference whether the Pats make the playoffs this year?

Presumably, the first rounder would have a lot more value if they finished out of the playoffs ("as if"). That much I understand. I also understand that under most "draft value" formulas, the differential between the value of first round picks is greater than that for picks later in the draft.

Is the notion here simply that the penalty would be viewed as too harsh if the Pats were somehow to tank it and wind up with a top ten (or fifteen) pick?

I just think it's strange to make the severity of a punitive sanction hinge on a future team performance that doesn't have much to do with the reason they are getting punished in the first place.

[BoiseBluTurf]

Wow, I thought it was a tough penalty. Every team in the league tries to steal defensive signals, only some use a sideline camera. It's the use of a camera that illegal, not the stealing of signals - let's not confuse that. Interstingly, there's video surfacing of a Jets employee carrying a camera around the Jets sideline (in clear violation of NFL rules) and filming while the Patsies were on defense. Belichick is Mangini's mentor, I'm sure he taught him everything!! These two are playing games with each other (tampering, use of video, signing each others cuts) and it should be interesting to see the next move.



This is not an argument! Just because someone else does it doesn't make it right... Plus... From all the reports I'm hearing EVERYONE doesn't do it, which is why people are so pissed off... Yes... there are some that will try to figure out hand signals (shanny for one) THAT goes on all over the league.. .but setting up a the opposing teams sideline... THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN! STOP SAYING IT DOES! This was/is a huge foul and the Pats are essentially getting away with it!

It makes no sense to me that a coach taking HGH gets suspended five games while gaining no competative edge... yet Bell can set up a camera to film the other teams signals and he gets a slap on the wrist? NOT FAIR! He should be off the sidelines!


That is all,


Michael

[Beantown Bronco]

After the Patriots win 12+ games this year this will mostly be forgotten.

Yeah.....I'm sure we won't hear anything about this next April. :oyvey:

:patslose:

[hades]

Could have been a lot worse, check out what F1 did to a cheater!

(sorry if a repost, I did not reall all 7 pages)


McLaren stripped of constructors' points and fined $100 million in Formula One spy case

Accused of using leaked secret data from its main rival Ferrari, the Formula One team McLaren was hit with a record $100 million fine Thursday by the World Motor Sport Council in the biggest scandal to hit auto racing's premier circuit.

Although McLaren drivers Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso escaped punishment Thursday, the espionage claims have rocked the sport and tainted McLaren's lead in the drivers' standings.

The team, also stripped of its constructors' points, already was battling accusations that it had used team orders to decide which driver would win races this season. Now, it is facing a new crisis.

And it's not the only major sports franchise accused of espionage. The New England Patriots have been accused of violating league rules by videotaping New York Jets coaches sending defensive signals to players. And at the women's World Cup in China, Denmark team officials found two men with video cameras sitting behind a two-way mirror in a hotel conference room where the team was about to hold a strategy meeting.

The F1 case broke in July when a 780-page technical dossier on Ferrari cars was found at the home of McLaren's chief designer, Mike Coughlan, who was later suspended. Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney, who allegedly supplied the documents, was fired.

[TheDave]

Could have been a lot worse, check out what F1 did to a cheater!

(sorry if a repost, I did not reall all 7 pages)


McLaren stripped of constructors' points and fined $100 million in Formula One spy case

Accused of using leaked secret data from its main rival Ferrari, the Formula One team McLaren was hit with a record $100 million fine Thursday by the World Motor Sport Council in the biggest scandal to hit auto racing's premier circuit.

Although McLaren drivers Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso escaped punishment Thursday, the espionage claims have rocked the sport and tainted McLaren's lead in the drivers' standings.

The team, also stripped of its constructors' points, already was battling accusations that it had used team orders to decide which driver would win races this season. Now, it is facing a new crisis.

And it's not the only major sports franchise accused of espionage. The New England Patriots have been accused of violating league rules by videotaping New York Jets coaches sending defensive signals to players. And at the women's World Cup in China, Denmark team officials found two men with video cameras sitting behind a two-way mirror in a hotel conference room where the team was about to hold a strategy meeting.

The F1 case broke in July when a 780-page technical dossier on Ferrari cars was found at the home of McLaren's chief designer, Mike Coughlan, who was later suspended. Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney, who allegedly supplied the documents, was fired.

What McLaren did was considered industrial espionage... A little more serious than stealing signals.

[NYBronc]

<IMG SRC="http://touchdown.org/putin-kraft.jpg">

[Caligula]

Wow, I thought it was a tough penalty. Every team in the league tries to steal defensive signals, only some use a sideline camera. It's the use of a camera that illegal, not the stealing of signals - let's not confuse that. Interstingly, there's video surfacing of a Jets employee carrying a camera around the Jets sideline (in clear violation of NFL rules) and filming while the Patsies were on defense. Belichick is Mangini's mentor, I'm sure he taught him everything!! These two are playing games with each other (tampering, use of video, signing each others cuts) and it should be interesting to see the next move.

You thought THIS was a tough penalty? For cheating? I don't care if you agree with the rule or not. I don't care if you "think" everyone does this (I promise you THIS, NO other team is video taping like this)... it DOESN'T matter. Because its AGAINST THE RULES... period. If other teams are doing it, then THEY should get a tougher penalty than THIS measly crap as well!

"Other teams are probably doing it" sounds like EVERY pot smoker's justification. "Hey dude, everyone parties man..huhhuh..huh....... pass the chips." LAME.

THe point is, you do the crime, YOU DO THE TIME.... and this penalty was NO time, it was a TINY slap on the wrist.. its EMBARRASSING to Goodall. WHy? This is the guy that tried to push for having a 'better name and better image' in the NFL. The one that threw someone out of the league for charges placed on him. So what does Goodall do to someone that is CHEATING and tearing at the mere FABRIC of the game? A shake of the finger and a 'no no'. Goodall proved that he's only an employee of the Owners.. and doesn't have the NUTS to take the strong hand when he SHOULD.

FORMULA ONE RACING, just gave a 100 MILLION dollar fine for one team 'spying' on another team. THE giant NFL, gives 500,000 to a multi-millionaire, and a TINY 250,000 fine to a a BILLIONAIRE. BRILLIANT!!! Kraft has that in the ashtray of his car. How can you suspend a QB coach for 5 games for taking something for his 'erectile dysfunction' and not give a suspension for literally CHEATING the game, and doing it for YEARS now (yes, years..read below).

I HOPE Trey Wingo is right. He was stating that Matt Millen has stated that in 2005 while at Foxboro, he had to kick that cameraman off his sideline TWICE. He then warned Marvin Lewis, and Lewis had to kick the guy off his sidelines. Both Lewis and other coaches have stated that during the end of the game and on important drives, their headsets 'mysteriously' stopped working. So Trey Wingo thinks the punishment was light NOW, because there could be more to come. I hope he's right, because this punishment laid down was PATHETIC. Why would any OTHER team NOT do this now? Goodall just have the VERY RULE he warned about 3 days prior to opening game SHOVED up his ASS, and he slaps your wrist in return. I say lets SCREW the rules, Goodall doesn't have the BALLS to do anything about it.

I said before the season started that Belicheck was getting desperate and this would be his last season.... now that he's shown he's nothing but a cheater.... I'm very confident.

[Caligula]

What McLaren did was considered industrial espionage... A little more serious than stealing signals.

You know what.. its not. ALthough we know that 'stealing signals' isn't the worst thing a person/team can do.. the point is (for BOTH sports) is that its BREAKING the rules that are SET. Call it 'espionage' if you want. If that makes it sound 'BIGGER" to you. Its the SAME thing. The rules are set in place to keep the game/sport/racing competition FAIR. So that the teams on the field/track are the result of the hard work given by both teams. WHEN you spy on the other team and TAKE and illegally gain the UNfair advantage (which is what CHEATING is).... you tear at the SPORT ITSELF. Thats the point.

Whether you agree with the rule or not.. its a RULE. Whether you think its a small deal... its STILL a rule. They are put there in place to keep things FAIR for both the home and the visiting team. Lets just start taping their locker room at halftime. Lets just start microphoning their coaches booth. Why not?

[ayjackson]

Hey, they're not getting fined for stealing signals, there getting fined for using a camera to do so. If you don't think that every team has spotters in press box, sidelines or the stands trying to steal your opponents signals during a game, you're delusional. That's why coaches cover their mouths and have multiple assitants relaying signals.

The benefit of knowing what the defensive call is on certain down and distance isn't so you can audible out of a play in response, it is so you can game plan an opponent for when you meet them later in the year. You study film to find out what defense a team typically calls for a situation and under what circumstances you audible out of it. If there is no defensive audibles, no problem, knowing what was originally called is obvious. With all the defensive audibles now, it's just about knowing what the other coaching staff will do before they do.

[Caligula]

Hey, they're not getting fined for stealing signals, there getting fined for using a camera to do so. If you don't think that every team has spotters in press box, sidelines or the stands trying to steal your opponents signals during a game, you're delusional. That's why coaches cover their mouths and have multiple assitants relaying signals.

The benefit of knowing what the defensive call is on certain down and distance isn't so you can audible out of a play in response, it is so you can game plan an opponent for when you meet them later in the year. You study film to find out what defense a team typically calls for a situation and under what circumstances you audible out of it. If there is no defensive audibles, no problem, knowing what was originally called is obvious. With all the defensive audibles now, it's just about knowing what the other coaching staff will do before they do.

Nope.. wrong.

The point was that the coaches were filming it, so they could compare it to the polaroid shots at half time,.... then from there the OCs will know exactly what the defense is calling.

If the OC knows what the defense is calling, they can call the right play, the right protection package.. they can 'hint' to Brady as to where the single coverage is, or if they are in zone or man-to-man. THey will know where the blitzes are coming from, and where they aren't.. thus k nowing the hot routes. This is a HUGE advantage to any team, and the fact they were CHEATING to obtain it is the point.

[Mediator12]

Hey, they're not getting fined for stealing signals, there getting fined for using a camera to do so. If you don't think that every team has spotters in press box, sidelines or the stands trying to steal your opponents signals during a game, you're delusional. That's why coaches cover their mouths and have multiple assitants relaying signals.

The benefit of knowing what the defensive call is on certain down and distance isn't so you can audible out of a play in response, it is so you can game plan an opponent for when you meet them later in the year. You study film to find out what defense a team typically calls for a situation and under what circumstances you audible out of it. If there is no defensive audibles, no problem, knowing what was originally called is obvious. With all the defensive audibles now, it's just about knowing what the other coaching staff will do before they do.

Actually what is completely delusional and Paranoid is that you think EVERY team does this. Then, you attempt to justify and rationalize breaking the rules like you are five years old and have a real argument that "everyone else does it".

If it gave them no advantage, why do it in the first place when the penalty is supposedly greater than the advantage? In fact, if the Patriots are as good as they want us to believe, why do it against the Lowly Jets at all? Is it because they killed Brady and beat them last year? Is it because Bill's ego was infuriated the former protege took them to the woodshed?

And for the record, I think the Pats got set up big time with the mandatory Photgraphers vests this offseason. The guy tried to enter the Pats Locker room at halftime with his vest on. The same vest that says you can not be in the coaches booth, lockerroom, or sideline taping any interaction during a game. The NFL provides all the footage of game tape and the Teams all use it. Here is the link:

http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2007/02/nfl.html

This pissed off a lot of the media, but it made everyone on the sidelines accountable to someone and easily recognizable on tape of the games. It's funny that NE was caught with the NFL's own film, filming signals.

[TheDave]

You know what.. its not. ALthough we know that 'stealing signals' isn't the worst thing a person/team can do.. the point is (for BOTH sports) is that its BREAKING the rules that are SET. Call it 'espionage' if you want. If that makes it sound 'BIGGER" to you. Its the SAME thing. The rules are set in place to keep the game/sport/racing competition FAIR. So that the teams on the field/track are the result of the hard work given by both teams. WHEN you spy on the other team and TAKE and illegally gain the UNfair advantage (which is what CHEATING is).... you tear at the SPORT ITSELF. Thats the point.

Whether you agree with the rule or not.. its a RULE. Whether you think its a small deal... its STILL a rule. They are put there in place to keep things FAIR for both the home and the visiting team. Lets just start taping their locker room at halftime. Lets just start microphoning their coaches booth. Why not?

This isn't the point of the thread... BUT... Give me a break. What happened between Ferrari and McLaren had very little to do with "The Sport" and much more to do with one company stealing trade secrets from another.

There is a huge difference between video taping defensive call signals, and bribing and stealing trade secrets that a corporation spent 100's of millions of dollars to develop. What McLaren did went far beyond F1 and because of this ended up in court and ultimately were fined $100,000,000. Being caught and tried for industrial espionage can and will put you in jail... unlike videotaping defensive signals.

As far as the patriots go... they were caught and have been fined appropriately (IMO). The real punishment for them comes the rest of this season... can they still remain on top of the world without this "Advantage"

[Que]

After the Patriots win 12+ games this year this will mostly be forgotten.

You better pray they win 12+ games. If this team stops winning the calls for an asterisk on your three Super Bowl wins will resemble the treatment that Barry Bonds gets. Seriously, for the good of your franchise, the NFL and sports in general you guys better keep winning - until Shanny beats you in the playoffs.

[Beantown Bronco]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

I'd say this guy has a legitimate gripe.

[Master___Pain]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

I'd say this guy has a legitimate gripe.

I'd say he does. I'd be livid if I was Wilson. Dick don't work and you try to remedy that....1/3 of your salary and 5 games. Blatantly cheating, heck that's only 15% of your salary and no suspension. Personally I think that Wilson suspension was waaaaaay too severe.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The whole nation thinks NE got slapped on the wrist except NE who thinks they got their weenies wacked.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9048/clipboard02gg7.jpg (http://espn.go.com/)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3748/clipboard01es3.jpg

[Bronco Yoda]

Why is there a 12+ game barometer whether they really ever gained an advantage over the years? Nobody says the pats aren't a good team or loaded. They don't need to cheat to win SOME games. And they're loaded more this year than ever. But this kind of info could easily swing a close game where a couple plays change the game.

Bilacheat has obviously been building a little database with situational what-if's in certain situations. The rumors of him bugging the D to hear audibles is even more serious if you ask me.

Let's see if he can win evenly matched playoff games and Super Bowls now. That's what I'm looking at.

[TomServo]

if i hear "everybody does it" or that nascar hillbilly redneck gem "if you aint cheatin you aint tryin" just one more time, i'm going to puke.
if knowing just 1/4 of an opponents plays is no big deal. try telling your friends every fourth play next time you play madden.

[TotallyScrewed]

I'd say he does. I'd be livid if I was Wilson. Dick don't work and you try to remedy that....1/3 of your salary and 5 games. Blatantly cheating, heck that's only 15% of your salary and no suspension. Personally I think that Wilson suspension was waaaaaay too severe.

Absolutely true. The lack of suspension for BB is the inconsistency. I say he should have been shelved for 2-4 weeks and that it could have been enforced if the league wanted to enforce it...make him wear the ankle bracelet and monitor his calls. I like this especially just because of the embrassment of it all. If they find out that he even attempted to circumvent the penalty, a one year suspension.

The current penalty looks like the league didn't want to hurt their poster team too much.

[Mediator12]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

I'd say this guy has a legitimate gripe.

He most certainly does have a legitimate gripe. I seems that Belichick should have a suspension every bit as much as Wade Wilson deserved. Belichick attempted to circumvent the rules intentionally. Wilson was trying to affect his quality of life, but he should have used a physician with the ability to prescribe a better course of treatment.

[TomServo]

except for new england, all the respect goodell got from nfl fans for being tough and cleaning up the league is gone gone gone.

[TexanBob]

With all the money these franchises have, why didn't the dude simply have a cell phone that records the info or takes snapshots? That way, if caught, he can flip the cell phone around and say

"That's right, honey. Yeah, I got it. A quart of milk and a loaf of wheat bread. Yeah, I'll get that on my way home. Right..."

[Cito Pelon]

The F1 McClaren team was just fined 100 mil and points taken away for spying.

Yeah, that was one serious fine. Now, that's a deterrent to future misbehavior! $500k is the largest fine allowed currently in the NFL from what I read today, so Goodell nailed Belichik as hard as he could.

Myself, I would have suspended Belichik just because he keeps saying "how I interpreted the rule." There's no "interpreting" rules to suit yourself. Belichik doesn't get the picture I guess. A year's suspension was probably needed to get his attention.

[Cito Pelon]

As promised, BB made a post-ruling statement:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/

September 13, 2007
Belichick statement
By Mike Reiss, Globe Staff
Patriots coach Bill Belichick released the following statement tonight:

"I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight's ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused. I also apologize to Patriots fans and would like to thank them for their support during the past few days and throughout my career.

"As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress.

"Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect.

"With tonight’s resolution, I will not be offering any further comments on this matter. We are moving on with our preparations for Sunday’s game."

That's the part that irritates me - the smug punk throws that in like he figures it's still ok to interpret clearly written rules. "all accepted interpretations [of the league rules]? He's still holding to his original position that it was just an honest mis-interpretation of a clearly stated rule. He has a twisted set of morals.