Goodell Determines Pats Broke Rules; Draft Picks May Be Taken

[RhymesayersDU]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals
By Chris Mortensen
ESPN.com

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, league sources have told ESPN's Chris Mortensen.

NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.

The league refused comment but did confirm Monday that they were reviewing a possible violation by the Patriots.

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Ed Werder said this afternoon that Denver was among the first to complain about the Patriots last season. (from ESPN Radio in Dallas)

[telluride]

The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.

They'll be using one of the Jet's calling cards.

[footstepsfrom#27]

WOW!!! I can't even fathom the stupidity of this. I thought for sure the Patsies had to be messin' with the Jets just to psych 'em out...how can you possibly be that stupid? Positioning a guy with a huge camera 30 feet from the Jets bench? LOL...that's mind numbingly dumb.

[smalltowngrll]

I hate to say it, but deception always comes to the surface!

[Paladin]

Take their first, second and third picks and reduce their scholarships by five, and lower their cap space by forty million, and deny them post season eligibility for six years.

That ought to do it, don't you think?

[boltaneer]

I thought there was no tape in the camera? ;)

Where's that Pats fan now?

[Pezman]

Suspend their coaching staff for a game IMHO

[OrangeShadow]

good.

[REB]

Haha! Dumb bastards :smashpats

[Spider]

suspend ? take Draft picks ? No postseason ? ...you ****ing nancy boys , the only punishment that fits this crime is ............ watching 14 hours of video of Al Davis nakin dancing on the pole to Brittany Spears oops I did it again

[Paladin]

suspend ? take Draft picks ? No postseason ? ...you ****ing nancy boys , the only punishment that fits this crime is ............ watching 14 hours of video of Al Davis nakin dancing on the pole to Brittany Spears oops I did it again

We want to punish them, not destroy their brains.....

[Paladin]

It occurs to me: what else are they doing??????

[SonOfLe-loLang]

to me this is just gamesmanship..i dontt hink its the biggest deal

[ND Bronco Fan]

I found this articles perspective pretty interesting. (especially the bolded part)

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

PATS GUILTY OF CHEATING

Chris Mortensen of ESPN reports that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has concluded that the New England Patriots violated league rules when videotaping defensive signals being sent in from the sidelines by Jets coaches during Sunday's game at the Meadowlands.

NFL Security confiscated a camera and videotape from Pats employee Matt Estrella, a video assistant. Mort says that the evidence that was confiscated confirmed the suspicion.

And the punishment could be severe.

Mortensen reports that Goodell is considering the possibility of stripping the team of "multiple draft picks," given that he has issued a stern warning to all teams to avoid such behavior.

We'll echo what we said below about Claude Wroten and anyone who tests positive at the scouting combine. In this case, the persons responsible for doing this are either stupid, or they have a serious problem.

The Patriots previously had been linked to such behavior. And yet they kept on doing it.

Former defensive coordinator Eric Mangini is now the head coach of the Jets, and likely knew a thing or two about these practices in New England. And yet they kept on doing it.

In fact, we're told by a very good source that, when the Packers caught a Pats employee doing the same thing last season, the Packers knew exactly what to look for, and nailed the guy in the act. The Packers didn't press the issue only because they lost the game 35-0, and didn't want to complain under those circumstances.

The Pats' habits in this regard were so well known that, per the same source, Colts president Bill Polian had all on-field cameras removed for the 2006 AFC championship game.

Thus, the Patriots knew that other people know what was happening. And yet they kept on doing it.

If all of this is true, it reflects a dangerous amount of arrogance in that team's coaching staff. In fact, our guess is that, now that the poo has hit the propeller, whoever put this system in place will privately justify it after the fact by explaining that, in the end, the cost was far less than the benefits that have been derived.

And it makes us -- and likely many others -- wonder how far back all of this goes. How many Lombardis are potentially tainted? How many of the games during that record-setting winning streak?

Regardless of the lost draft picks, which mean much less in the salary cap era than they used to, there's now a stain on the NFL first dynasty of the new century. How far it spreads and how deep it goes remains to be seen.

[Spider]

We want to punish them, not destroy their brains.....

Spears thing over the top ?

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

Are you serious? Where you see the difference between 'gamesmanship' and cheating, then? This was cheating. No other way around it.

[Atwater His Ass]

it would be gamesmanship to study the signs in real time and try to interpret them. it's flat out cheating to video tape it.

i can't belive the pats are this stupid. wow.

[Jens1893]

Strip them off Sunday´s win.

[broncosteven]

Even if you tape the game unless there is a feed to a coach somewhere how will that tape help in current game?

I can see how they use it in future games but unless there is a comm between a coach and the spy I am not getting how this helps.

[cutthemdown]

I agree nothing wrong with stealing signals as long as you use naked eye. But doing this is just opening a can of worms that will take away from the game. Don't be surprised to see pats stripped of a 1st round pick or more for this. If I was comish to make sure it never happens agian I would strip them of the whole draft.

[Beantown Bronco]

Even if you tape the game unless there is a feed to a coach somewhere how will that tape help in current game?

I can see how they use it in future games but unless there is a comm between a coach and the spy I am not getting how this helps.

Ever hear of "halftime adjustments"? Plenty of time to go over what the signals were and look for them in the second half.

Perhaps this is why they are typically so good in the second half of games, yet in the AFC Championship last year (when the cameras were not allowed) they simply collapsed in the second half.

Let's see how many now call for the "Barry Bonds asterisk" next to those championships......I've got the popcorn ready.

[footstepsfrom#27]

And it makes us -- and likely many others -- wonder how far back all of this goes. How many Lombardis are potentially tainted? How many of the games during that record-setting winning streak?

Regardless of the lost draft picks, which mean much less in the salary cap era than they used to, there's now a stain on the NFL first dynasty of the new century. How far it spreads and how deep it goes remains to be seen.
Exactly...this thing will develop a life of it's own even if they're somehow cleared. Coming on the heels of the NBA refs betting on games, this just adds fuel to the fire.

[crush17]

They should be forced to forfiet that game against the Jets.
Plain and simple. Why they dont do that is beyond me.

[peacepipe]

Even if you tape the game unless there is a feed to a coach somewhere how will that tape help in current game?

I can see how they use it in future games but unless there is a comm between a coach and the spy I am not getting how this helps.

He used hand signals, as he did in green bay when he got busted there. Also if it wouldn't do them any good then why do it?

[Northman]

heh, from here on out every win the Pats have there will be speculation that they are cheating. How funny.

[NFLBRONCO]

BB is a voyuer of men sick bastard

[OrangeDoofus]

They'll be using one of the Jet's calling cards.
Come on, I can't be the only one who laughed out loud at this.

[Meck77]

New England Patriots Three time Superbowl Champs*

*Pending investigation that they aren't freaking cheaters

[chadta]

Strip them off Sunday´s win.

thats the first thing i thought too, seems to me to be the obvious choice

[sixtimeseight]

lol @ everybody trying to defend the cheating Pats. Some people just refuse to face the truth that the Pats have been the most classless organization in pro sports ever since Belichek came to town, and probably before.

[Paladin]

Ain't denying the classless point. The question is what to do about it.

I think the Brittany thing would be about right after the picks are taken.....

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I do think its gamesmanship simply because teams can use this against them. If you suspect them of doing it, which they obviously did, change up your calls and catch them off guard. Done.

[liljd307]

i think the whole team should just be disbanded becasue everyone not from the east coast secretly (or not so secretly in my case) hates the patriots

[SleepingTiger]

They should be forced to forfiet that game against the Jets.
Plain and simple. Why they dont do that is beyond me.

They should forfiet the game and loose the 1st and 2nd pick in the draft. Also make them release Brady and Seymour!

[Ray Finkle]

suspend ? take Draft picks ? No postseason ? ...you ****ing nancy boys , the only punishment that fits this crime is ............ watching 14 hours of video of Al Davis nakin dancing on the pole to Brittany Spears oops I did it again


But that's hot....;)

[Chris]

Tom Brady cheated on his girlfriend...Bill Belichick cheated his own dignity with that cut off hoodie...and the patriots cheated the world.

CHEATERS

[footstepsfrom#27]

I suggest the league hold a draft of Patriot players for the teams that reported them spying with a draft lottery to determine the picking order. Each team gets two players and the Patsies get to re-stock their roster with two players off the selecting team's practice squad in exchange. Obviously the Patsies will pay the contracts for these players to avoid salary cap problems.

What say you? ;D

[Paladin]

Sounds good. Can Denver trade up?

[SleepingTiger]

I suggest the league hold a draft of Patriot players for the teams that reported them spying with a draft lottery to determine the picking order. Each team gets two players and the Patsies get to re-stock their roster with two players off the selecting team's practice squad in exchange. Obviously the Patsies will pay the contracts for these players to avoid salary cap problems.

What say you? ;D

so who do we give up from our practice squad???

[footstepsfrom#27]

so who do we give up from our practice squad???
How bout Cliff Washburn and Steve Harris for Logan Mankins and Vince Wilfork? Seems fair to me.;)

[Rock Chalk]

If you know yourself and know your enemy, you will win the battle and win the war. If you know yourself but do not know the enemy, you may win the battle but lose the war. If you know neither yourself nor your enemy you are ****ed.

Paraphrased by Alec from Sun Tzu ;D

[MechanicalBull]

It's the Pats so the NFL will probably end up giving them a draft pick instead of taking possibly one away. ;D

[ZONA]

I say let Ditka lose on Genious for 10 minutes. :thumbsup:

[400HZ]

Pats @ Jets game on NFLN right now. :spit:

[Crowpointer]

I thought there was no tape in the camera? ;)

Where's that Pats fan now?

I'll be sitting in sec 132 in Gillette stadium this sunday and every other home game. Oh yeah (courtesy of Broncocalijohn ) I sat in Plaza 54 to watch the Bolts choke last playoffs. Make sure LT keeps giving the bulletin board material for sunday.

[ZONA]

It's the Pats so the NFL will probably end up giving them a draft pick instead of taking possibly one away. ;D

No $hit. The league will probably take their first round pick but grant them three second round picks................doh. Yeah, that's fair.

[Pezman]

Hell, as long as it ruins their credibility, it will do far more damage than anything that the NFL can do to punish them for cheating.

[Broncos123]

F--cking CHEATERS!!!!

[Bronco Billy]

From the NFL Digest of Rules:

Under Authority of Commissioner's Office

"Forfeit. The Commissioner (except in cases of disciplinary action; see last section on "Removing Team from Field"), League President, and their representatives, including referees, are not authorized unilaterally to declare forfeits. A forfeit occurs only when a game is not played because of the failure or refusal of one team to participate. In this event, the other team, if ready and willing to play, is the winner by a score of 2-0."


Under Unfair Acts

Penalties for Unfair Acts
The Commissioner's powers under this section (UNFAIR ACTS) include the imposition of monetary fines and draft choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a game's result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred."

[400HZ]

I'll be sitting in sec 132 in Gillette stadium this sunday and every other home game. Oh yeah (courtesy of Broncocalijohn ) I sat in Plaza 54 to watch the Bolts choke last playoffs. Make sure LT keeps giving the bulletin board material for sunday.

So will your team be cheating in this game as well?

[DomCasual]

Take their first, second and third picks and reduce their scholarships by five, and lower their cap space by forty million, and deny them post season eligibility for six years.

That ought to do it, don't you think?

Don't be ridiculous.

I think they should cut off two of Lawrence Maroney's fingers. And then they should brand the Jets logo on Robert Kraft's wife's right buttock.

It's the only reasonable punishment, when you think about it.

[cabronco]

Drop the hammer down Goodell ! Also drug test Bruschi , heck the entire team & coaching staff. Get the Mascott too , he looks & acts juiced.

[Bronco Yoda]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7216044?MSNHPHCP&GT1=10437

"The Patriots may also have violated another league rule during the game by having additional audio receivers on their sideline, Glazer reports. "


Yikes!


also, NFL network just said that the Patriots had already been WARNED last year !!!!!

[boltaneer]

I'll be sitting in sec 132 in Gillette stadium this sunday and every other home game. Oh yeah (courtesy of Broncocalijohn ) I sat in Plaza 54 to watch the Bolts choke last playoffs. Make sure LT keeps giving the bulletin board material for sunday.

I'd rather the Bolts lose fair and square than to cheat to have to win. I hate to call people names but you really come off as the stereotypcial Masshole that everyone hates. There's something about the typical Patriot fan that resembles their classless coach.

Address the issue at hand and don't change the subject.

[PatsWin2002]

They will make an example of the Patriots because they are the Patriots. And most teams are jealous and would love to knock them down a peg. It's that simple.

To me, this is the equivalent of a coach/manager checking the curve of an opponent's hockey stick or having a bat checked for cork. It's more of a mind game than anything else.

It's a broken rule and there will be consequences, but there are insiders around the league coming forward saying it's either no big deal or saying it's a common thing.

It's not much different than a scout sitting there with binoculars and a cell phone. That's why the coaches block their mouths with the clipboard when they talk to the players.

If anyone thinks it had any influence on the outcome of the Jets game, you're nuts.

[Bronco Billy]

If anyone thinks it had any influence on the outcome of the Jets game, you're nuts.

You're right that it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the game. The Pats are clearly the better team. But, if it doesn't affect the outcome of the game, then why do it in the first place? Especially if you were already warned.

[400HZ]

They will make an example of the Patriots because they are the Patriots. And most teams are jealous and would love to knock them down a peg. It's that simple.

To me, this is the equivalent of a coach/manager checking the curve of an opponent's hockey stick or having a bat checked for cork. It's more of a mind game than anything else.

It's a broken rule and there will be consequences, but there are insiders around the league coming forward saying it's either no big deal or saying it's a common thing.

It's not much different than a scout sitting there with binoculars and a cell phone. That's why the coaches block their mouths with the clipboard when they talk to the players.

[B]If anyone thinks it had any influence on the outcome of the Jets game, you're nuts.

Insiders around the league say the same thing about steroids and HGH too. Does that make performance enhancing drugs no big deal?

[Bronco Yoda]

The sheer audacity of it all is unbelievable. No better place to hide than right out in the open. Guess they played like they were NFL FILMS or something. Also using extra microphones. Who knows what else.

How many years have they been doing this? How many games have been affected? How many other teams missed the playoffs and coaches and players lost their jobs.

If someone say's this is no big deal and hasn't effected games.... they're FOS!

Trust me... this ain't going away quietly. No matter how Pats fans want to play it down.

[PatsWin2002]

Insiders around the league say the same thing about steroids and HGH too. Does that make performance enhancing drugs no big deal?

Excellent point.

They are different because the players' lives/health are at risk. However, I don't think the NFL would ever want to know how many players are on a banned substance. It's big business and they are all about protecting their image and product.

You'd have to be pretty naive to think the NFL doesn't have drug/gambling/insider info issues like any other corporation. Where there is money there is a motive.

[chanesaw]

Even if you tape the game unless there is a feed to a coach somewhere how will that tape help in current game?

I can see how they use it in future games but unless there is a comm between a coach and the spy I am not getting how this helps.

I also heard that they had just signed some former Jets players.

Not to mention that the Pats were also busted for studying gamefilm with audio.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Ed Werder said this afternoon that Denver was among the first to complain about the Patriots last season. (from ESPN Radio in Dallas)

That's not surprising if true. Belichek has won all of one game against Shanahan, and that was a game when Denver had to start their 3rd-string QB.

[Atwater His Ass]

They will make an example of the Patriots because they are the Patriots. And most teams are jealous and would love to knock them down a peg. It's that simple.

To me, this is the equivalent of a coach/manager checking the curve of an opponent's hockey stick or having a bat checked for cork. It's more of a mind game than anything else.

It's a broken rule and there will be consequences, but there are insiders around the league coming forward saying it's either no big deal or saying it's a common thing.

It's not much different than a scout sitting there with binoculars and a cell phone. That's why the coaches block their mouths with the clipboard when they talk to the players.

If anyone thinks it had any influence on the outcome of the Jets game, you're nuts.

I normally appreciate your posts around here. But you are completely off base with these comments.

[frerottenextelway]

from pft:

WERE PATS WIRING DEFENSIVE PLAYERS, TOO?

The situation regarding the New England Patriots and the allegations/proof that they have stolen defensive signals is unofficially getting weirder.

The signal stealing flap is relevant only to defensive signals, since all offensive calls are made by radio.

But we're now aware of suspicions/rumors regarding efforts by the Pats to get a leg up as to opposing offenses. Specifically, we're told that it's believed that, during the 2006 season, the Patriots were putting microphones on defensive linemen in order to capture the offensive line calls and the quarterback audibles.

Then, the audio and the video of the game would be matched up, and the defensive players would be given the code at halftime.

This seriously effects the integrity of the game. Sorry to the Pats fans, but if guilty, those that were the brains behind it or part of the planning or execution should be forced out of the game. Also, if Kraft knew about it, he could potentially face serious legal obstacles.

[TheReverend]

So this is how Belicek became a "great" coach out of thin air?

[FloridaResident]

http://i5.tinypic.com/6f7syrm.gif

[Rock Chalk]

They will make an example of the Patriots because they are the Patriots. And most teams are jealous and would love to knock them down a peg. It's that simple.

Most teams are not Denver :P We pwn teh fu77 of suck Patsies. Oh, and I disagree, the media and NFL powers-that-be have been knob slobbing the entire organization since they upset the Rams.

To me, this is the equivalent of a coach/manager checking the curve of an opponent's hockey stick or having a bat checked for cork. It's more of a mind game than anything else.

I dont see it like that and Im absolutely convinced that had the Jets been doing it to the Patriots you would not see it as you do either. You just are a conformed cheater. Hey, we all have our faults. Sucks for you since you have at least 3 being a Red Cock fan, A Patsie fan and a yankee all in one. :P

It's a broken rule and there will be consequences, but there are insiders around the league coming forward saying it's either no big deal or saying it's a common thing.

Then the insiders need to spill beans unless the Broncos are involved. ;D

It's not much different than a scout sitting there with binoculars and a cell phone. That's why the coaches block their mouths with the clipboard when they talk to the players.

Still trying to rationalize cheating eh? Cheatin ass cheater 4321~

If anyone thinks it had any influence on the outcome of the Jets game, you're nuts.

Well no, but being a division rival Im fairly certain that had they not been caught, it may have influenced most future Jets/Patsies games. Cheatin ass cheaters.

[55CrushEm]

From the NFL Digest of Rules:

Under Authority of Commissioner's Office

"Forfeit. The Commissioner (except in cases of disciplinary action; see last section on "Removing Team from Field"), League President, and their representatives, including referees, are not authorized unilaterally to declare forfeits. A forfeit occurs only when a game is not played because of the failure or refusal of one team to participate. In this event, the other team, if ready and willing to play, is the winner by a score of 2-0."


Under Unfair Acts

Penalties for Unfair Acts
The Commissioner's powers under this section (UNFAIR ACTS) include the imposition of monetary fines and draft choice forfeitures, suspension of persons involved, and, if appropriate, the reversal of a game's result or the rescheduling of a game, either from the beginning or from the point at which the extraordinary act occurred."

Nice find....REP.

[Drek]

You're right that it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the game. The Pats are clearly the better team. But, if it doesn't affect the outcome of the game, then why do it in the first place? Especially if you were already warned.

You know they do play the Jets again this season, right?

Take play by play game film of defensive signals, add areal cam footage of actual events on the field, then take the knowledgeable defensive staff of the Pats where Mangini used to work. Throw 'em all in a room together. Know what you have after that?

The Jets defensive playbook.

Its New England's only real competition in the division, does anyone think they'd be above "sharing materials" with other teams should the Jets make the division a race?

There are serious implications, but they don't strike directly at the game just played. There is no way, even during halftime, to edit and partition the footage in a way that it'd be quickly and easily usable by a defensive coach in the booth or by a scout on the sideline.

Declaring the game a forfeit is wrong for two reasons. One, it didn't help the Pats stomp a mud hole in the Jets collective asses. Two, its too damn light. We all got a good look at what kind of teams Miami and Buffalo are going to be this season. We all got a good look at how easily the Pats can manhandle the Jets. They'll do it again all season long and still win the division.

Hit 'em where it really hurts. They're a smart drafting team, strip their whole first day and while you're at it give their 3rd to the Jets for "damages". Follow it up with a six figure fine and both Pioli and Kraft will make sure the coaching staff and on-field assistants are playing clean from then on.

[55CrushEm]

They will make an example of the Patriots because they are the Patriots. And most teams are jealous and would love to knock them down a peg. It's that simple.

To me, this is the equivalent of a coach/manager checking the curve of an opponent's hockey stick or having a bat checked for cork. It's more of a mind game than anything else.

It's a broken rule and there will be consequences, but there are insiders around the league coming forward saying it's either no big deal or saying it's a common thing.

It's not much different than a scout sitting there with binoculars and a cell phone. That's why the coaches block their mouths with the clipboard when they talk to the players.

If anyone thinks it had any influence on the outcome of the Jets game, you're nuts.

I'm so tire of Pats' fans saying this.....that point is obvious. But it goes beyond that, don't you think?

Now more questions arise.....namely how long have they been doing this? Yes, you blew out the Jets on Sunday....but what about all the CLOSE games the Pats won? Gee, you won all of your Superbowls by 3 points.....

I'm not saying you wouldn't have won those games, anyway. Not even saying that you cheated in those games.

But now that it has been determined that you cheated.....you were warned in the past....now the team's CREDIBILITY is shot.....the question will always be there.....

[55CrushEm]

If someone say's this is no big deal and hasn't effected games.... they're FOS!

Exactly....it's funny how a vast majority of any team's fans are blind with love.

I listen to WEEI in Boston every morning, and when the Rodney Harrison/HGH thing broke....callers were calling in left and right..."Oh, but he's a good guy", "Oh, but this...and oh, but that." Apologists and excuses.....I'd have a lot more respect for their fans if they'd step up and say, "Yeah, he cheated." I'm sure these are the same people that we're sreaming in rage about Shawn Merriman......oh wait, Shawn Merriman isn't a Patriot......

I like to consider myself in the small minority that calls a spade a spade. For example, when Kenny Peterson was tested positive for steroids, my first thought was, "Great....what an idiot....nice to screw up our already thin defensive line, you moron!"

So to your point.....if I hear one more Patsie fan say that this "is no big deal", I think I'll sh*t myself.....this IS a big deal, and if this were the Broncos, I'd be VERY disappointed in my team.

Fortunately, we have one of the classiest organizations in pro sports.....:thumbsup:

[go_broncos]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_-Oha_7alHJ8/RuYeOezmwqI/AAAAAAAABMw/3uo4NQhZqR8/s1600-h/pats-camera.jpg

[coachmastermind]

[QUOTE=Drek;1709568]You know they do play the Jets again this season, right?QUOTE]

But they don't play the Green Ba twice a season... obviously wouldn't meet them in the playoffs, and everyone knew GB wasn't going to be a potenital Super Bowl opponent- it sounds like they've been doing this to several teams- there are ways they have to be using this in the game-(not just gathering info for future games). You can remotely send video to a monitor or communicate somehow (radio frequency??) to somoneone who has access to those photos they have pre and post snap, match up the signal to the photos.

That's cheating in my book.

[theAPAOps5]

They should have to play the rest of the season with out the earpiece in the QBs helmet. So they have to signal all the plays in. On top of that they should have to write every defensive play on a gian white board in plain english.

If they lie about the play or audible out of it on defense they will be forced to suspend one starter on either side for 8 games.

Yeah totally unrealistic but I also think every punt attempt should be a fake.

[55CrushEm]

[QUOTE=Drek;1709568]You know they do play the Jets again this season, right?QUOTE]

But they don't play the Green Ba twice a season... obviously wouldn't meet them in the playoffs, and everyone knew GB wasn't going to be a potenital Super Bowl opponent- it sounds like they've been doing this to several teams- there are ways they have to be using this in the game-(not just gathering info for future games). You can remotely send video to a monitor or communicate somehow (radio frequency??) to somoneone who has access to those photos they have pre and post snap, match up the signal to the photos.

That's cheating in my book.

Good points.....I couldn't figure out why they'd do this for a Packers game....as you say, they would only play them once every 4 years.....and again, as you say, that could only lead you to believe that if they did this for a Packers game....then they probably do it for MOST games.....

****ing cheaters.....aside from murderers, rapists, and child abusers....people I hate most are thieves and cheaters.....

[CHANGSTER]

This is gonna really piss me off if this helps the Chuggers win next week. Cant we just wait till monday to sort this out?:wiggle:

[Kaylore]

I agree with others here and I think the Patriots fans' attempts to minimize this is kind of lame. If we had to pay with picks for a salary cap issue that had no affect on our roster, then the Patriots better take it up the butt for a move that was specifically designed to score a competitive advantage.

[Drek]

But they don't play the Green Ba twice a season... obviously wouldn't meet them in the playoffs, and everyone knew GB wasn't going to be a potenital Super Bowl opponent- it sounds like they've been doing this to several teams- there are ways they have to be using this in the game-(not just gathering info for future games). You can remotely send video to a monitor or communicate somehow (radio frequency??) to somoneone who has access to those photos they have pre and post snap, match up the signal to the photos.

That's cheating in my book.

You've got to start somewhere, do you think they'd roll out something like this for the first time in a road divisional game that was broadcast around almost the entire country?

Besides, do you really think Belicheck isn't the type of paranoid freak to want as much footage on every team as possible? Green Bay's current defensive scheme comes form Bates' time there, and originated out of the Dallas SB era, its filtered throughout much of the league, but its a defensive system none of the Pats guys have spent any time in. Its an excellent first step towards their ultimate goal of reverse engineering playbooks through illicitly gained info.

[Cito Pelon]

The NE Patriot motto - "Think like a thief would."

[NFLBRONCO]

I agree with others here and I think the Patriots fans' attempts to minimize this is kind of lame. If we had to pay with picks for a salary cap issue that had no affect on our roster, then the Patriots better take it up the butt for a move that was specifically designed to score a competitive advantage.

Nice job I was going to mention this as well. Didn't we lose a 3rd for it?

[UboBronco]

I agree with others here and I think the Patriots fans' attempts to minimize this is kind of lame. If we had to pay with picks for a salary cap issue that had no affect on our roster, then the Patriots better take it up the butt for a move that was specifically designed to score a competitive advantage.


Rumor tonight on ESPN, that they could forfeit a pick, or multiple picks. I hope they also are wise enough to make them forfeit the cap space for rookies provided by those picks that are taken away. Otherwise, the Pats could win in this situation by just using the extra cap space to sign a quality free agent.

The Broncos lost a third, for not "FUNDING" an annuity for Elway... Not circumventing the salary cap. I wish all of these "experts" on football, the cap, and competitive advantage could understand what they so proudly hail as the "facts".

[DomCasual]

They will make an example of the Patriots because they are the Patriots. And most teams are jealous and would love to knock them down a peg. It's that simple.

Man, I totally disagree. In fact, it's almost ironic that you say that. I bet the fans on 31 other teams' messageboards think just the opposite - that the Patriots get special treatment.

As I said in another thread, this reminds me a lot of what the Broncos went through in '98 and '99. There were teams that complained and complained about the Broncos - their salary cap issues, the cut blocking stuff, the way their linemen wore their jerseys. It almost became ridiculous after awhile.

That being said, I think this reflects really badly on the Patriots organization. It's not like it's just a Jets thing - other teams have brought it up in the past. The Patriots appear to feel they are above the law with it, as blatant as they were in doing it. And I think it could affect the outcome of a close game. If you have someone studying the calls from the first half, and comparing the calls with the plays that are actually run, it wouldn't be that hard to start predicting what the plays will be in the 2nd half. And how can knowing what the play is before it happens not be an advantage? I don't think it affected the outcome of the Jets game. But I think it could theoretically affect the outcome of a closer game.

I'm interested in seeing what the punishment is - that'll be a pretty good indication of how much it's really benefited the Patriots. If the NFL comes back with something like a $250K fine, then it'll be pretty clear they feel that it's pretty insignificant and commonplace. If they dock them a mid to high draft pick, it will say a lot about how severe (and isolated) they consider it to be.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I agree with others here and I think the Patriots fans' attempts to minimize this is kind of lame. If we had to pay with picks for a salary cap issue that had no affect on our roster, then the Patriots better take it up the butt for a move that was specifically designed to score a competitive advantage.
QFT.

[Bronco Billy]

You know they do play the Jets again this season, right?

Declaring the game a forfeit is wrong for two reasons.

Nice post, just replying to make sure I wasn't misunderstood.

I am aware that they play the Jets again, but I was referring to this specific game.

I'm not sure if you think that I want them to forfeit the game, because I don't think that is the right course. I listed the NFL rules on forfeitures because someone else brought it up. I agree that stripping draft picks, especially a first-round pick, is a good solution. If Belicheck is found to be clearly involved, then he needs to be suspended - and I'm one of those guys who refers to Belicheck as "a genious".

I can't remember if TD or Rod Woodson said it on Total Access, but someone mentioned (half-heartedly) banning them from the playoffs regardless of their record just like the NCAA does to colleges who violate rules.

[no-pseudo-fan]

Take away the game and the player stats. Jets win! Take a 2nd and a 4th in next years draft, suspend Belichek for 4 games, fine the team, reduce salary cap 15Mil. Then tar and feather Al Davis, just because.

[gunns]

The fact that they had been warned should double the punishment.

Does this mean that Belichick didn't have faith in his team? That they weren't really as good as presented? That Brady isn't the QB he appears to be? Can he read defenses? Or are they read to him?

[Dukes]

Kinda amusing, one Patsie on Patfan.com posted this link to a story about how Denver "cheated" twice, trying to rationalize their own cheating.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28969-2004Sep17.html

Funny how even in the article it says "Denver gained no competitive advantage".

Guess their reading comprehension skills need a little help.

[Que]

To be honest, this is just damn embarrassing for the NFL. The Pats are suppposed to be a good organization that is above this. Champions and all that... What complete idiots for doing it too. They were almost caught last year. WTF. Hope Roger makes an example of out of them.

[Dukes]

The fact that they had been warned should double the punishment.

Does this mean that Belichick didn't have faith in his team? That they weren't really as good as presented? That Brady isn't the QB he appears to be? Can he read defenses? Or are they read to him?

I think it means BB is an ego-maniac who thinks he's untouchable.

[12th man]

Ed Werder said this afternoon that Denver was among the first to complain about the Patriots last season. (from ESPN Radio in Dallas)

The pats can't beat us even when they try to cheat against us. That's awsome!

[~Crash~]

to me this is just gamesmanship..i dontt hink its the biggest deal

so those two games were we were got the crap beat out of our team on opening day and you could tell that they knew the plays the last two yeas dont piss you off .


you know there was player hurt durring this game now picture how you would feel if that was our players hurt when they were cheating

[Kaylore]

Nice job I was going to mention this as well. Didn't we lose a 3rd for it?

A third and a fifth.

[no-pseudo-fan]

Shanahan is too smart for Belicheat. Bill tries to win by cutting corners, Mike beats you straight-up

[BoiseBluTurf]

They will make an example of the Patriots because they are the Patriots. And most teams are jealous and would love to knock them down a peg. It's that simple.

To me, this is the equivalent of a coach/manager checking the curve of an opponent's hockey stick or having a bat checked for cork. It's more of a mind game than anything else.

It's a broken rule and there will be consequences, but there are insiders around the league coming forward saying it's either no big deal or saying it's a common thing.

It's not much different than a scout sitting there with binoculars and a cell phone. That's why the coaches block their mouths with the clipboard when they talk to the players.

If anyone thinks it had any influence on the outcome of the Jets game, you're nuts.


I have been reading your post for quit a while and I gotta tell you that this in not something I would expect you to write. You have always been a stand up guy and for you to come out with this kind of spin is out of character.
You know that actions have consequences... With that in mind the Pats will not be punished to be made an example of... they will be punished because the cheated! Plain and simple... The feelings other teams may have for your beloved pats has no baring! They cheated... they got caught... they now they pay.


Thats it.


Michael

[Hercules Rockefeller]

A third and a fifth.

2 3rds, 1 for each infaction

[BroncoSoja]

They should be forced to forfiet that game against the Jets.
Plain and simple. Why they dont do that is beyond me.

Exactly!

[boltaneer]

In addition, I think Goodell needs to send a team over to Gillette Stadium and turn that place upside down for cameras and mics.

I'm thinking that the Hobo probably has that place bugged up and down it would make Jack Bauer jealous.

[cabronco]

He's not only a Hobo, but a cheat'n Hobo. And he's a sore losing Hobo. I've seen more than once after his team loses, he won't greet the opposing coach on the field to shake his hand.

[Bronco Yoda]

not only is there now accusations of extra mics and radio frequencies.... but reading the Pats board there is mention of league allegations that funny biz might have been going on with SEVERAL D PLAYERS WIRED UP.

Ironic isn't it that they have that green dot signifying who's wired this year to prevent multiple players wired up on the field at the same time!

Is it just me.... or is the trail of crumbs adding up here.... leading us to a very interesting conclusion?!

[Paladin]

Mike Halovak is churning in his grave.....

What do you expect out of people who have to dress up like indians to go dump a bunch of tea in the harbor? I have often wondered why indians? WTF did the indians care about tea? People from Boston have always been sneaky and hiding something....

[Killericon]

Wait until the investigation is complete, but I think the penalty should be fines and draft picks...nothing more.

[DeuceOfClub]

If found guilty the NFL should deduct the win from the Patriots record. But not award it to the Jets.

Draft picks and/or money fines should be extra.

[BroncoBuff]

Strip them off Sunday´s win.
That's what struck me first - forfeit the game.

[rubaiyat]

You know they do play the Jets again this season, right?

Take play by play game film of defensive signals, add areal cam footage of actual events on the field, then take the knowledgeable defensive staff of the Pats where Mangini used to work. Throw 'em all in a room together. Know what you have after that?

The Jets defensive playbook.

Its New England's only real competition in the division, does anyone think they'd be above "sharing materials" with other teams should the Jets make the division a race?

There are serious implications, but they don't strike directly at the game just played. There is no way, even during halftime, to edit and partition the footage in a way that it'd be quickly and easily usable by a defensive coach in the booth or by a scout on the sideline.

Declaring the game a forfeit is wrong for two reasons. One, it didn't help the Pats stomp a mud hole in the Jets collective asses. Two, its too damn light. We all got a good look at what kind of teams Miami and Buffalo are going to be this season. We all got a good look at how easily the Pats can manhandle the Jets. They'll do it again all season long and still win the division.

Hit 'em where it really hurts. They're a smart drafting team, strip their whole first day and while you're at it give their 3rd to the Jets for "damages". Follow it up with a six figure fine and both Pioli and Kraft will make sure the coaching staff and on-field assistants are playing clean from then on.


The broader issue is of course other teams. THis stuff ranged from GB to the Jets and possibly the Broncos. Seems to indicate it was fairly pervasive.

[Elway148]

to me this is just gamesmanship..i dontt hink its the biggest deal

You're kidding right? This is cheating not gamesmanship.

[DomCasual]

Mike Halovak is churning in his grave.....

What do you expect out of people who have to dress up like indians to go dump a bunch of tea in the harbor? I have often wondered why indians? WTF did the indians care about tea? People from Boston have always been sneaky and hiding something....

I think they may very well be some sort of alien life form. It's like that movie with Rowdy Roddy Piper, where he puts on the sunglasses that allow him to see aliens. He discovers a good portion of the general population are, in fact, aliens. I wonder what would happen if you put on a pair of those glasses in Boston.

Here is a dramatization of what I am talking about. This is Bill Belichick at a press conference:

http://images.sportsnetwork.com/football/nfl/allsport/patriots/belichick_bill4.jpg

Now, here he is looking through the Rowdy Roddy Piper glasses:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k131/pre-cip-i-ta-tion/TheyLive.jpg

I think you hear me knocking - am I right, or am I right?

[Bronco Yoda]

If found guilty the NFL should deduct the win from the Patriots record. But not award it to the Jets.

Draft picks and/or money fines should be extra.

since accusations are swirling down the rabbit hole... guilty of which?

just filming on the field?

or maybe extra mics..... or how about them radio frequencies

then you have allegations of funny biz with several D players wired up (not sure if that was this year or last).

Next we'll find out BB had live instant google mapping capabilities wired into his cell phone with pinpoint zoom lens technology.

[DeuceOfClub]

Guilty of anything that is consider cheating by the NFL. Trying to get an unfair advantage while violating league rules.

Most of what you motioned fall in that category.

[Hulamau]

Hey they've been doing it to us for years too and the Broncos still own them lock, stock and barrel!

Shanny probably uses double meaning defensive signals between the first half and the second just to F**k them up :-)!

[broncocalijohn]

You're kidding right? This is cheating not gamesmanship.


I think Lelo is also a backer of Bonds who i guess is sportsmanship too. The only steps would be draft picks and money. I would love to see Belechick suspended for some games. This goes beyond Growth hormones for individuals. This is cheating at its peak. Congrats Pats. Your classiness and media love fest of your team has just sunk to Faider like. Hope you getting caught will effect your defense of plays. Cant wait for the comparison now.
Goodell has had to deal with a lot of crap so far in his short post of commisioner. Good job on most parts.

[Raider Bill]

ROFL

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/lardude/patsnewlogoia7Custom.jpg

[Raider Bill]

ROFLMAO!

http://www.stampedeblue.com/images/admin/Patriotsnewlogo.jpg

[ol number 7]

I agree nothing wrong with stealing signals as long as you use naked eye. But doing this is just opening a can of worms that will take away from the game. Don't be surprised to see pats stripped of a 1st round pick or more for this. If I was comish to make sure it never happens agian I would strip them of the whole draft.

And make Brady play for the Jets. Hey Belicheck sleeps around with another mans wife so why would this surprise anyone. This could keep him out of Canton. Probably placing bets since he knew the "cheat" was on.

[Beantown Bronco]

Mike Halovak is churning in his grave.....

What do you expect out of people who have to dress up like indians to go dump a bunch of tea in the harbor? I have often wondered why indians? WTF did the indians care about tea? People from Boston have always been sneaky and hiding something....

Agreed :wiggle:


I LOVED watching the news last night. They went out into the street asking people about this....and they all either said the whole "they are just making stuff up to knock down the #1 team, etc...." or my favorite "if you are not cheating, you're not trying". Then the reporter would ask them what they would say if the Colts were caught doing this......they all had no comment and walked away.

[55CrushEm]

****, Kaylore....I had no idea that we had lost two 3rd round picks for tweaking the salary cap....

If that's the case, then the Pats should have to forfeit their entire 2008 draft......nah, let them keep their 7th rounder.

[bronco_diesel]

Hey they've been doing it to us for years too and the Broncos still own them lock, stock and barrel!

Shanny probably uses double meaning defensive signals between the first half and the second just to **** them up :-)!

that is what i thought. someone mentioned that shanny was one of the first to complain - so he knew how to adjust to it.

[Mediator12]

Hey, I am confused about why people think this does not give Brady a competitive advantage? Do you all not understand the process of Playcalling and how the Mike in the helmet is live until 15 seconds before the snap? There are very few playcalls on defense during a game, what cahnges is the presnap looks on those playcalls. IF BRADY knew the play before the snap he could further adjust the playcall or audible to something much more advantageous. Half of the game on offense for a QB is making accurate presnap reads. What if Brady had the knowledge they were playing man, zone, or blitzing as he was coming to the LOS. You think he could adjust protections, call better hot routes, and audible possibly.

In today's world of technology, I was already wondering when people would try and steal the radio signals of those headsets. There was a good article on cheating before the season, by Don Banks of SI I believe, and teams will try to get every advantage possible, including this kind of cheating I guess.

People really do not realize how even most of these teams are in talent. Exploiting one small advantage can usually win a game. Stealing playcalls during a game would make a team look very dominant with all that average talent on the field in NE.

Again, Defensive playcalls are not complicated. They call a front, a coverage, and adjustment for down and distance. Three real easy things. Maybe 12 different coverages, four or five fronts max, and 5 adjustments per game. Blitzes are a part of the front and coverage calls. The defense plays much simpler than the offense's gameplan card.

They usually call the plays right as they set down and distance and before the offense breaks the huddle. That gives plenty of time for someone to decipher the calls and relay them to the QB before he even gets to the LOS and the radio is off.

[broncsyanks]

i bet goodell has no balls and doesnt do anything other then a late draft pick and a "undisclosed" fine. this is not a player getting in trouble its an organization

[bronco_diesel]

well there you have it - the pats are cheaters and this now explains why coach Belichick may have gotten so good.

i think they should do the following:
forfiet the game against the jets
take away all their first day draft picks
make them ineligable for the post season (this year)

[Mediator12]

i bet goodell has no balls and doesnt do anything other then a late draft pick and a "undisclosed" fine. this is not a player getting in trouble its an organization

Oh, I sincerely doubt it. Goodell's personal conduct policy makes it clear that Coaches and FO personnel will be held to a HIGHER standard than players. Wade Wilson got 5 games suspended for using a banned substance that would have gotten 4 for a player.

The real damage to this team would be to suspend the coaching staff for 2 weeks at a time. Many people do not understand how critical having a complete staff available for gameplanning is since teams have 72 hours to devise and implement a gameplan. A Rotating suspension of two coaches per side of the ball would be devastating to the Patriots chances and would be an appropriate competitive DISADVANTAGE comparable to what they were doing.

[55CrushEm]

Exploiting one small advantage can usually win a game. Stealing playcalls during a game would make a team look very dominant with all that average talent on the field in NE.


Agreed. I posted this in another thread....think about it.

"The Jets beat them last year in New England....they knocked the crap out of Brady. Funny how, New England not only beats them on Sunday, but they figured out how to stop that blitz....Brady wasn't touched....yet the Jets blitzed a VERY high percentage of the snaps. The Pats picked it up EVERY time.

Coincidence? I think not...."

It makes you wonder......

[55CrushEm]

Oh, I sincerely doubt it. Goodell's personal conduct policy makes it clear that Coaches and FO personnel will be held to a HIGHER standard than players. Wade Wilson got 5 games suspended for using a banned substance that would have gotten 4 for a player.


I hope you're right Med. I hope Goodell drops the hammer. My only fear is this is the 3-time Champion Patriots we're talking about here. It's the "Golden" franchise....not the Cowboys, not any other team....it's the most "admired" and talked about team in the NFL.

I just hope Goodell doesn't back off for that reason.

[Mediator12]

Wait until the investigation is complete, but I think the penalty should be fines and draft picks...nothing more.

The initial investigation is complete and Goodell acknowledged the Pats were caught violating league rules after already being warned about this conduct before. The Personal conduct policy says in order to suspend someone they need to be repeat offenders and guess what, the Pats Qualify.

The subsequent investigation will probably determine the extent of the punishment. If the other allegations are true about extra frequencies, and miking DL to get audibles and protections then the Pats will be in severe trouble, punishable by heavy coaching suspensions to say the least and probably forfeiting multiple draft selectionsas well.

[TheReverend]

The initial investigation is complete and Goodell acknowledged the Pats were caught violating league rules after already being warned about this conduct before. The Personal conduct policy says in order to suspend someone they need to be repeat offenders and guess what, the Pats Qualify.

The subsequent investigation will probably determine the extent of the punishment. If the other allegations are true about extra frequencies, and miking DL to get audibles and protections then the Pats will be in severe trouble, punishable by heavy coaching suspensions to say the least and probably forfeiting multiple draft selectionsas well.

The asterisk next to their superbowl "dynasty" is enough to make me smile. Now let's see BB show off his Cleveland Browns coaching ability and see how "cool" and "calm" Tom Brady is when he doesn't know wtf is coming.

[Beantown Bronco]

I hope you're right Med. I hope Goodell drops the hammer. My only fear is this is the 3-time Champion Patriots we're talking about here. It's the "Golden" franchise....not the Cowboys, not any other team....it's the most "admired" and talked about team in the NFL.

I just hope Goodell doesn't back off for that reason.

Tags might have, because of his close relationship with Kraft. Goodell, however, doesn't appear to have that same kind of "friendly, hang out with my boys" relationship with some of the owners that Tags did....

[Steve Sewell]

Does anyone else find it funny that the national media is poo-pooing this with the "if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'" argument?

[Steve Sewell]

New England Patriots Three time Superbowl Champs*

*Pending investigation that they aren't freaking cheaters

umm...guys, let's be careful here we are bordering on being hypocrits.

[WolfpackGuy]

Just saw the picture of the camera guy below. How blatant is that to do it right on the Jets' sideline? Kinda pathetic to cheat against a former assistant who is probably running a lot of the same schemes you do.

[Mediator12]

umm...guys, let's be careful here we are bordering on being hypocrits.

The Broncos would be if they wanted to put the asterisk by the Pats SB championships, but I doubt that they would ever do that now would they?
As for Me, I am a hypocrite ;D I am not proud of it, but sometimes the things that piss me off the most are the ones I struggle to do myself.

In this case though, my condemning a team for cheating to gain competitive advantage is not being a hypocrite. I am a guy who expects better behavior out of the NFL and their teams. I expect the Broncos to never try and do this exact kind of thing. So, it really does not make us hypocrites to expect a level playing field among teams now does it?

[Spider]

umm...guys, let's be careful here we are bordering on being hypocrits.
How so ?
our problem was the way we were paying Elway and TD ..... Deferement payments ........
Elway and Td would have remained on the Team no matter what , that isnt the issue ... the NFL didnt like the payment plan

[bfoflcommish]

Rumor tonight on ESPN, that they could forfeit a pick, or multiple picks. I hope they also are wise enough to make them forfeit the cap space for rookies provided by those picks that are taken away. Otherwise, the Pats could win in this situation by just using the extra cap space to sign a quality free agent. The Broncos lost a third, for not "FUNDING" an annuity for Elway... Not circumventing the salary cap. I wish all of these "experts" on football, the cap, and competitive advantage could understand what they so proudly hail as the "facts".

great point

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by UboBronco
Rumor tonight on ESPN, that they could forfeit a pick, or multiple picks. I hope they also are wise enough to make them forfeit the cap space for rookies provided by those picks that are taken away. Otherwise, the Pats could win in this situation by just using the extra cap space to sign a quality free agent. The Broncos lost a third, for not "FUNDING" an annuity for Elway... Not circumventing the salary cap. I wish all of these "experts" on football, the cap, and competitive advantage could understand what they so proudly hail as the "facts".

That is done automatically by actual draft selections. Where it is an issue is when teams draft and then trade a player like the Eli/Rivers debacle a few years ago.

[400HZ]

I was thinking about $20 million of dead space in their cap this year, $15 mil the next, then $10 and $5. I'll email my idea to Goodell today.

[Steve Sewell]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_-Oha_7alHJ8/RuYeOezmwqI/AAAAAAAABMw/3uo4NQhZqR8/s1600-h/pats-camera.jpg

Wow! They had the audacity to put a guy, with a camera, in a GREEN shirt, on the JETS SIDELINE, IN THE Meadowlands? That is insane!

IMO this is just a big "**** you NFL we'll do whatever the hell we want, we are the Patriots" kind of thing.

[Steve Sewell]

How so ?
our problem was the way we were paying Elway and TD ..... Deferement payments ........
Elway and Td would have remained on the Team no matter what , that isnt the issue ... the NFL didnt like the payment plan

I know the whole story, but in the minds of a lot of opposing fans, we are cheaters because we were punished. Not saying it's fair, but that is the perception out there.

[Spider]

I know the whole story, but in the minds of a lot of opposing fans, we are cheaters because we were punished. Not saying it's fair, but that is the perception out there.

as`if opposing fans have minds ........

[55CrushEm]

I was thinking about $20 million of dead space in their cap this year, $15 mil the next, then $10 and $5. I'll email my idea to Goodell today.

Ha! I was wondering how to get Goodell's email. Not they'd he'd bother to read crap from clowns like us.....but hey, if you get inundated with email, that would at least let him know how most people in the country feel....and he might be more inclined not to "back off" of a harsher punishment. It's a thought.

[Steve Sewell]

The Broncos would be if they wanted to put the asterisk by the Pats SB championships, but I doubt that they would ever do that now would they?
As for Me, I am a hypocrite ;D I am not proud of it, but sometimes the things that piss me off the most are the ones I struggle to do myself.

In this case though, my condemning a team for cheating to gain competitive advantage is not being a hypocrite. I am a guy who expects better behavior out of the NFL and their teams. I expect the Broncos to never try and do this exact kind of thing. So, it really does not make us hypocrites to expect a level playing field among teams now does it?

Thank you Med for your kind way of identifying my spelling shortfall! lol

Anyway, all that I was saying is that fans of many NFL teams believe there should be an asterisk next to our Super Bowls because of the salary cap issue. This is because of lack of knowledge about the situation or sheer jealousy (see: Chief fans). I was just pointing out that the way we are perceiving this Patriots situation is the same way other fans perceive our situation during the Super Bowl years, that's all.

[400HZ]

If Wade Wilson gets slammed for 5 games because he was trying to give himself a competitive advantage in the bedroom, Belicheat should get at least 10 games for a competitive advantage on the field. I heard that Goodell has called Billy in for a meeting on Friday. I can't wait!!!! Most people who visit Goodell's office don't **** right for at least a week.

[Mediator12]

You can not worry about other peoples perceptions of you, otherwise guys like Alec, Popps, And Slap would have run me off a long time ago ;D I am glad I stuck around because they have excellent minds and I can appreciate our differences of opinion.

I never cheated and I am not happy DEN did what it did in those payments either. However, they paid the price for their actions and so should NE for a far more egregious infraction directly related to Winning games. I still say they need to suspend the coaches in order to reduce their ability to put together and implement a gameplan and reduce their chemistry on game day.

[Steve Sewell]

as`if opposing fans have minds ........

I should have inserted a disclaimer of "sans chiefs fans they don't have minds". My apologies Spidey.

[Beej]

Seems to me there was a team last year (not the Pats) that was coming up big in the second halves of games. That team went 14-2.

I'm not saying that they were cheating like the Pats, but it makes you wonder...

[WolfpackGuy]

What the Broncos did wasn't affecting what was going on during play. Next thing you know we'll find out the Patriots have remote control goal posts at home that raise-lower and widen-narrow depending on the situation.

[Master___Pain]

The Pats fans sure have become quiet on this issue here. Cat got your tongue?

[Beantown Bronco]

update:

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

According to a former coach, this is likely how and why the Patriots stole the Jets defensive signals:

The person with the camera, in this case, Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella, would tape the coach's hand signals as he sends the defense in. Then the camera person would verbally call out down and distance so the recorder's microphone would pick it up. Then when the tape is analyzed, the hand signals are matched up to down and distance and defensive scheme.

"They would have it all chronicled such as: 4-3 even defense, cover 2, hand to the belt, index finger up," the coach said. "Now if you had a sharp guy in the huddle who was in for every play, you would teach him the signals and he would look over to the sidelines and steal the signals and tell the quarterback."

[Spider]

I should have inserted a disclaimer of "sans chiefs fans they don't have minds". My apologies Spidey.

;D and raider fans . ok I am nit picking .......

[55CrushEm]

update:

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

According to a former coach, this is likely how and why the Patriots stole the Jets defensive signals:

The person with the camera, in this case, Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella, would tape the coach's hand signals as he sends the defense in. Then the camera person would verbally call out down and distance so the recorder's microphone would pick it up. Then when the tape is analyzed, the hand signals are matched up to down and distance and defensive scheme.

"They would have it all chronicled such as: 4-3 even defense, cover 2, hand to the belt, index finger up," the coach said. "Now if you had a sharp guy in the huddle who was in for every play, you would teach him the signals and he would look over to the sidelines and steal the signals and tell the quarterback."

Where did you get this, Beantown? Globe? Herald? Other?

[alkemical]

i didn't read all teh posts in this thread

but i want bellicheck suspended - screw the draft picks -

[Rock Chalk]

You can not worry about other peoples perceptions of you, otherwise guys like Alec, Popps, And Slap would have run me off a long time ago ;D I am glad I stuck around because they have excellent minds and I can appreciate our differences of opinion.

I never cheated and I am not happy DEN did what it did in those payments either. However, they paid the price for their actions and so should NE for a far more egregious infraction directly related to Winning games. I still say they need to suspend the coaches in order to reduce their ability to put together and implement a gameplan and reduce their chemistry on game day.

Hey we agree on most things bud. Ed Reed being overrated, PFP metrics (the value but not infallibility of them), the greatness of Alec, etc. We only disagreed on that pesky DC we had last year :P

[Mediator12]

update:

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

According to a former coach, this is likely how and why the Patriots stole the Jets defensive signals:

The person with the camera, in this case, Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella, would tape the coach's hand signals as he sends the defense in. Then the camera person would verbally call out down and distance so the recorder's microphone would pick it up. Then when the tape is analyzed, the hand signals are matched up to down and distance and defensive scheme.

"They would have it all chronicled such as: 4-3 even defense, cover 2, hand to the belt, index finger up," the coach said. "Now if you had a sharp guy in the huddle who was in for every play, you would teach him the signals and he would look over to the sidelines and steal the signals and tell the quarterback."

This is why they instituted the sideline cameramen had to wear the VESTS this year! Now it makes total sense. The Pats had been accused of doing this last year and they made a rule change that pissed off a lot of MEDIA outlets in order to catch this exact thing. Damn, the papers were going to sue the NFL over the vests too...

Who said the NFL was not sneaky :angel: They did it to catch the Pats and it worked like a CHARM :yayaya:

[55CrushEm]

i didn't read all teh posts in this thread

but i want bellicheck suspended - screw the draft picks -

Honestly, I'd like to see him suspended, too.....as another poster pointed out, a Dallas coach was suspended for 4 games for violation the substance abuse policy.....

Goodell needs to make an example of him, and show the league that even the Mighty Bill Belichick isn't above the law of the league.

[DeuceOfClub]

Ha! I was wondering how to get Goodell's email. Not they'd he'd bother to read crap from clowns like us.....but hey, if you get inundated with email, that would at least let him know how most people in the country feel....and he might be more inclined not to "back off" of a harsher punishment. It's a thought.

I would try:

Roger.Goodell@nfl.com, or
rgoodell@nfl.com or some other variation.

[EDIT:] I think the first one should work:

Please copy/paste to your mail and send to Commissioner Goodell
Roger.Goodell@ nfl.com. or call 202-450-2000.
Maybe? (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=165067361&blogID=290269796)

[Mediator12]

Hey we agree on most things bud. Ed Reed being overrated, PFP metrics (the value but not infallibility of them), the greatness of Alec, etc. We only disagreed on that pesky DC we had last year :P

Well now that that is out of the way, Popps has lost Plummer, and slap still is giving me **** I feel much better :thumbsup:

Bates gave up a freakin TD to BUF though, they still need work !Booya!

[alkemical]

Honestly, I'd like to see him suspended, too.....as another poster pointed out, a Dallas coach was suspended for 4 games for violation the substance abuse policy.....

Goodell needs to make an example of him, and show the league that even the Mighty Bill Belichick isn't above the law of the league.

I agree - it messes with the "integrity of the game".

[55CrushEm]

This is why they instituted the sideline cameramen had to wear the VESTS this year! Now it makes total sense. The Pats had been accused of doing this last year and they made a rule change that pissed off a lot of MEDIA outlets in order to catch this exact thing. Damn, the papers were going to sue the NFL over the vests too...

Who said the NFL was not sneaky :angel: They did it to catch the Pats and it worked like a CHARM :yayaya:

Yeah, but he WAS wearing the vest, according to the article. They still had to catch him by observing what he was filming. Only afterward, they said he was wearing a Pats' shirt under the vest.

[Steve Sewell]

;D and raider fans . ok I am nit picking .......

I believe raider fans are extinct, so I neglected to mention them.

[Beantown Bronco]

Where did you get this, Beantown? Globe? Herald? Other?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/09/12/2007-09-12_eric_mangini_exposes_bill_belichicks_spy.html

[Mediator12]

update:

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

According to a former coach, this is likely how and why the Patriots stole the Jets defensive signals:

The person with the camera, in this case, Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella, would tape the coach's hand signals as he sends the defense in. Then the camera person would verbally call out down and distance so the recorder's microphone would pick it up. Then when the tape is analyzed, the hand signals are matched up to down and distance and defensive scheme.

"They would have it all chronicled such as: 4-3 even defense, cover 2, hand to the belt, index finger up," the coach said. "Now if you had a sharp guy in the huddle who was in for every play, you would teach him the signals and he would look over to the sidelines and steal the signals and tell the quarterback."

This looks like exactly what I said in post 117:

Hey, I am confused about why people think this does not give Brady a competitive advantage? Do you all not understand the process of Playcalling and how the Mike in the helmet is live until 15 seconds before the snap? There are very few playcalls on defense during a game, what cahnges is the presnap looks on those playcalls. IF BRADY knew the play before the snap he could further adjust the playcall or audible to something much more advantageous. Half of the game on offense for a QB is making accurate presnap reads. What if Brady had the knowledge they were playing man, zone, or blitzing as he was coming to the LOS. You think he could adjust protections, call better hot routes, and audible possibly.

In today's world of technology, I was already wondering when people would try and steal the radio signals of those headsets. There was a good article on cheating before the season, by Don Banks of SI I believe, and teams will try to get every advantage possible, including this kind of cheating I guess.

People really do not realize how even most of these teams are in talent. Exploiting one small advantage can usually win a game. Stealing playcalls during a game would make a team look very dominant with all that average talent on the field in NE.

Again, Defensive playcalls are not complicated. They call a front, a coverage, and adjustment for down and distance. Three real easy things. Maybe 12 different coverages, four or five fronts max, and 5 adjustments per game. Blitzes are a part of the front and coverage calls. The defense plays much simpler than the offense's gameplan card.

They usually call the plays right as they set down and distance and before the offense breaks the huddle. That gives plenty of time for someone to decipher the calls and relay them to the QB before he even gets to the LOS and the radio is off.

[bronco militia]

I really don't get what the big deal is....

[Mediator12]

Yeah, but he WAS wearing the vest, according to the article. They still had to catch him by observing what he was filming. Only afterward, they said he was wearing a Pats' shirt under the vest.

It was the League Mandated vest that got him caught 55Crushem! They are NOT allowed in the lockerroms until the end of the game. He tried to enter right before halftime, BIG RED FLAG! He should have taken it off, but he had the camera to take into the lockerroom and assumed it would make it more feasible I guess.

This is the first year the Photographers had to register and wear a vest as a mandate. And the NFL is being sued I believe by a Newspaper in Cali for some reason over it. However, it makes spotting an individual a great deal easier and therefore made it easy to seize his camera and tape. Great sting operation.

[Mediator12]

I really don't get what the big deal is....

Having the ability to relay coverages and fronts to Brady so his presnap reads are PERFECT. Ever wonder why he was so cool in the pocket, so efficient with HORRIBLE WR's, hardly ever got into a bad play and audibled so well. Well, this might explain a lot of things.

[cousinal11]

I really don't get what the big deal is....

They were videotaping the defensive coach's hand signals to the defense so they would know what defenses they were facing in the second half. This is the second time this has happened with the Patsies in less than a year. If they were stealing them just by watching the coach from the field or sidelines that is one thing, but to have an assistant coach videotaping on their sidelines and analyze the tape, thats bush league. Did that clear it up for you? U still think it's okay? So you wouldn't mind every team having multiple camermen on the opponets sidelines to attempt to steal hand signals?

[Bronco Yoda]

Intresting isn't it how the league was so worried this year about multiple player being wired they initiated that green dot helmet thing.

Next we'll find BB was going over the hand signals in the bathroom stalls under the partitions.....

...this is getting fun... Ha!

[theAPAOps5]

We might see many teams employ what Missouri does on Offense. They have three coaches standing side by side all sending in plays with signals. No one knows exactly who it is. We might see the same dance on the sidelines with D's when they play NE.

[bronco militia]

They were videotaping the defensive coach's hand signals to the defense so they would know what defenses they were facing in the second half. This is the second time this has happened with the Patsies in less than a year. If they were stealing them just by watching the coach from the field or sidelines that is one thing, but to have an assistant coach videotaping on their sidelines and analyze the tape, thats bush league. Did that clear it up for you? U still think it's okay? So you wouldn't mind every team having multiple camermen on the opponets sidelines to attempt to steal hand signals?

the Broncos don't have any trouble beating the Pats :giggle:

hey look everybody, New York fans are crying about one of their favorite teams getting their ass's kicked again!

"it's not fair! wahhhhhhhhhhhhh....they must have cheated......wahhhhhhhhh"

honestly, I could care less

[Paladin]

Is it possible to go over the films of previous years and see if this sort of thing was going on during the "glory" years? Is it possible that the Dolts knew this last year and managed to change up the signals and that changed the dynamics of the second half of the game last year with the Pats? Maybe that's what Denver does??

I would be more concerned with the radio or telephone signals being intercepted or even shut off by "mistake" during games. If you know the O call to the QB, a D can be signalled in that matches the play called. And the vice can be versa....

I think this really does question the integrity of the game. And I certainly believe that BB needs to sit down for the rest of the year. And I think draft picks should be taken as well.

Getting hand signals is one thing and bad enough, but messing with the radio signals is another.....

[55CrushEm]

It was the League Mandated vest that got him caught 55Crushem! They are NOT allowed in the lockerroms until the end of the game. He tried to enter right before halftime, BIG RED FLAG!

Oh....it was the bolded part I was unaware of.....

[WoodMan]

Strip them off Sunday´s win.

Yep. Forfit the game to the Jets. Then if you want to further punish the coaching staff, OK by me. :~ohyah!:

[Paladin]

Maybe they should stick great big Asterisks on those Lombardi's..............

[Rohirrim]

I don't think losing draft picks is enough. They ought to sic that OU deballer on Belichick. ;D

[Bronco Yoda]

I say hit them hard.... just not until AFTER this Sunday. :)

[TheChamp24]

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but I think it is GOLD!
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a224/nyjetsfan28/cheatiesnj9.jpg

[TheDave]

If this is as much of an advantage as some people are saying... The real punishment is going to be watching them learn how to play without knowing the defense. Were about to find out just how "Terrific" Brady really is...

This could be fun.

[Crowpointer]

The Pats fans sure have become quiet on this issue here. Cat got your tongue?

I've been bouncing around trying to get info. What do you want me say MP ? The league will issue punishment and I think we all will agree that Goodell is if anything not lenient. The season will start up again on Sunday with the Patriots under the microscope and criticized and rightly so. I am a Patriots fan but I don't work or play for the Patriots. I just buy my tickets and support my team like the Broncos support their team. I can't pull my hair out over something I can't control. Do I think the team was stupid ? Of course. Do they deserve punishment. Absolutely. Will I still bleed for the Pats ? Until the day I die. You all can resume the pig piling as I resume work.

[TailgateNut]

I've been bouncing around trying to get info. What do you want me say MP ? The league will issue punishment and I think we all will agree that Goodell is if anything not lenient. The season will start up again on Sunday with the Patriots under the microscope and criticized and rightly so. I am a Patriots fan but I don't work or play for the Patriots. I just buy my tickets and support my team like the Broncos support their team. I can't pull my hair out over something I can't control. Do I think the team was stupid ? Of course. Do they deserve punishment. Absolutely. Will I still bleed for the Pats ? Until the day I die. You all can resume the pig piling as I resume work.


Stated like a closing statement by a defense attorney! Nice Job.

Patriot Lombardi's ?? ?? ??

[PatsWin2002]

I've been bouncing around trying to get info. What do you want me say MP ? The league will issue punishment and I think we all will agree that Goodell is if anything not lenient. The season will start up again on Sunday with the Patriots under the microscope and criticized and rightly so. I am a Patriots fan but I don't work or play for the Patriots. I just buy my tickets and support my team like the Broncos support their team. I can't pull my hair out over something I can't control. Do I think the team was stupid ? Of course. Do they deserve punishment. Absolutely. Will I still bleed for the Pats ? Until the day I die. You all can resume the pig piling as I resume work.

Well put. Let's see where this goes from here.

[Chris]

This is the key to the Broncos protecting their radio frequencies

http://www.atariarchives.org/deli/nazi_code-1.jpg

The Enigma code machine

[Bronco Yoda]

Yah, but I hear BB's got a new GPS CHEATBERRY with instant signal messaging.

[NYBroncoManiac]

I haven't posted in quite a while, but this really pisses me off... they're friggin' messing with my game!

There are a couple of things that everyone seems to be forgetting about:


There's still a rumor that there were extra radio frequencies being used. If that's true, then what's to keep them from having the audio from the camera being sent by radio directly to the coaches booth. Imagine the competitive advantage that gives you. We're not just talking about defensive hand signals here, but anything said on the sideline would be heard by the coaching staff (offense OR defense)
The Pats have a 36 - 9 home record since 2002. I find it easy to believe any team that would put a cameraman on the opposing teams sideline at an away game would have no problem bugging the visiting teams locker room and bench during a game.


Maybe I'm wearing a tinfoil hat here, but this crap makes me crazy!

[alkemical]

If this is as much of an advantage as some people are saying... The real punishment is going to be watching them learn how to play without knowing the defense. Were about to find out just how "Terrific" Brady really is...

This could be fun.

dave,

watching someone piss their pants is funny?

HAHAHA, yeah it is!

[boltaneer]

I haven't posted in quite a while, but this really pisses me off... they're friggin' messing with my game!

There are a couple of things that everyone seems to be forgetting about:


There's still a rumor that there were extra radio frequencies being used. If that's true, then what's to keep them from having the audio from the camera being sent by radio directly to the coaches booth. Imagine the competitive advantage that gives you. We're not just talking about defensive hand signals here, but anything said on the sideline would be heard by the coaching staff (offense OR defense)
The Pats have a 36 - 9 home record since 2002. I find it easy to believe any team that would put a cameraman on the opposing teams sideline at an away game would have no problem bugging the visiting teams locker room and bench during a game.


Maybe I'm wearing a tinfoil hat here, but this crap makes me crazy!

I don't think you're wearing a tinfoil hat at all. The Patriots integrity is now down the toilet so I think any concerns about other illegal activities they are doing are not out of line.

I said this earlier that I would like to see Goodell have a crew search their stadium up and down and see what they find.

[NYBroncoManiac]

It does seem rather incredible that their homefield advantage is so out of whack.

Anyone know what it was before 2002?

[24champ]

I don't think you're wearing a tinfoil hat at all. The Patriots integrity is now down the toilet so I think any concerns about other illegal activities they are doing are not out of line.

I said this earlier that I would like to see Goodell have a crew search their stadium up and down and see what they find.

Yeah I can see Goodell's goon squad march into Gillette Stadium with these bug detectors...it would probably go beep! beep! beep! beep! everywhere.

[BABronco]

Seems to me there was a team last year (not the Pats) that was coming up big in the second halves of games. That team went 14-2.

I'm not saying that they were cheating like the Pats, but it makes you wonder...

Thats kinda what I was thinking. Go after manning lol. The nfl would be so screwed if all 3 of their babies went down for something in one year. First Vick, now Brady and Co. How messed up would it be to have the colts doing something like this?

[WolfpackGuy]

2 of those 9 losses came against the Broncos

[BABronco]

Might also explain how manning was only sacked once last year. Yeah yeah yeah, I know I'm a poor loser. But it makes you think.

[NYBroncoManiac]

2 of those 9 losses came against the Broncos

That's cuz the Broncos Rock!

[Bronco Yoda]

I haven't posted in quite a while, but this really pisses me off... they're friggin' messing with my game!

There are a couple of things that everyone seems to be forgetting about:


There's still a rumor that there were extra radio frequencies being used. If that's true, then what's to keep them from having the audio from the camera being sent by radio directly to the coaches booth. Imagine the competitive advantage that gives you. We're not just talking about defensive hand signals here, but anything said on the sideline would be heard by the coaching staff (offense OR defense)
The Pats have a 36 - 9 home record since 2002. I find it easy to believe any team that would put a cameraman on the opposing teams sideline at an away game would have no problem bugging the visiting teams locker room and bench during a game.


Maybe I'm wearing a tinfoil hat here, but this crap makes me crazy!


Don't forget also about allegations that several D players have/had their helmets wired. How far does the rabbit hole go?

[TheDave]

dave,

watching someone piss their pants is funny?

HAHAHA, yeah it is!

Yes it is...;D

[PatsWin2002]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/01/09/life_of_reilly/

It's no rumor, pal. "Our guy keeps a pair of binoculars on their signal-callers every game," says Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. "With any luck, we have their defensive signals figured out by halftime. Sometimes, by the end of the first quarter."

[Rulon Velvet Jones]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/01/09/life_of_reilly/

Just like all the other Patsies fans, you're trying your hardest to divert blame. A column from 2002? You're serious? 2002. And you really think Shanahan would own up to something like that without knowing it was within the rules of the game? Why are you all so hard-headed about this?

What the Patriots did was AGAINST THE RULES. They've been warned and have likely been doing it for years no. Saying "oh, this team did this" and "this team did that" doesn't make what the Patriots did right.

Your team cheats and they've been caught. Deal with it.

[Bronx33]

I checked out a couple chowder boards and the basic fan seems to think cheating didn't matter because they would have won anyways.

[Beantown Bronco]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/01/09/life_of_reilly/

binoculars are legal.....recording devices are not. What part of that is hard to understand?

[bronco militia]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/01/09/life_of_reilly/

Ha!

[frerottenextelway]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/01/09/life_of_reilly/

Lame, Denver stayed w/in the rules and has been one of those pushing to get mics in the MLB's helmet. NE repeatedly has broke this rule after specifically being warned against it, and may have even recorded audio which goes way beyond everything and gets into Donaghy territory. It's pathetic and disgusting and those defending or downplaying it should be ashamed of themselves.

[Broncos4tw]

While I think they should be punished, and brought down a peg or two to keep them honest, I'd also like to add that if I could hazard a guess, I bet around 100% of the NFL teams have done or do things that are at least very much in the "grey" area, in order to win. As a Bronco fan, I've never been keen on our chopblocking. Not cheating, definately cheap. And the vasoline incident. And the paying under the table incident.

And I bet all others teams have plenty of skeletons in their closest as well. So while I'll snicker a little at the Pats and feel they should be punished since they were caught, I'd like to think that most fans are not so naive as to believe their teams are full of pristine, upstanding, honest players and coaches.

In other words, give the Pats a break. Let them get their punishment, laugh at their apparent stupidity at being so blaise about their taping, but don't get too high and mighty — it may come to bite you in the butt later.

[Atwater His Ass]

Chopblocking is illegal. Denver doesn't chopblock.

[Beej]

Thats kinda what I was thinking. Go after manning lol. The nfl would be so screwed if all 3 of their babies went down for something in one year. First Vick, now Brady and Co. How messed up would it be to have the colts doing something like this?

I guess I should've been more specific, but I was referring to the Chargers.

[frerottenextelway]

pft:

DID PATS USE RADIOS ON DEFENSE?

Now that the entire pro football community is atwitter over the allegations/proof of cheating by the New England Patriots, we're hearing more rumors on the NFL grapevine regarding the extent to which this stuff went on.

In addition to the rumor we heard on Wednesday that the Pats were putting microphones on defensive players in 2006 to pick up audibles and offensive line calls, we're now hearing that there has been a rumor for years that the Patriots have inserted a radio in the helmet of one or more defensive players for the purposes of direct communications with the coaching staff.

Such a tactic, if true, would be an even more significant violation of the rules, in our opinion. As several readers have pointed out, the only thing illegal about the signal-stealing issue is the use of the electronic equipment to record the images. Nothing prevents a team from using low-tech means to track signals and connect them to the defensive coverages used. It's simply harder to do it via the naked eye, especially since the video can be used later to confirm the specific signals given, if/when the team with the video is preparing to face the same opponent in the future -- or a member of that coaching staff who might use the same signals in a new city.

So the only competitive advantage is that it's a better way of doing something that already can be done.

In contrast, using radios in the helmets of defensive players gives the team access to something that folks who follow the rules simply can't use.

Keep in mind that this new twist is only a rumor, one of many that are now on the NFL grapevine as this story continues to percolate. Still, given the events of the last 48 hours, it's hard not to rule out anything at this point.

[Atwater His Ass]

so how long until allegations come out that the pats were also monitoring the other teams offensive calls via the radio? how far does this all go?

i'll still wait until all the facts are out, but it appears that this could spiral well out of control. i remeber when people were saying that the whole dog fighting thing with vick wasn't even news and all the allegations were false and we all know how that ended up.

id be pretty darned concerened with this if i was a pats fan.

[footstepsfrom#27]

As a Bronco fan, I've never been keen on our chopblocking. Not cheating, definately cheap. And the vasoline incident. And the paying under the table incident.

And I bet all others teams have plenty of skeletons in their closest as well. So while I'll snicker a little at the Pats and feel they should be punished since they were caught, I'd like to think that most fans are not so naive as to believe their teams are full of pristine, upstanding, honest players and coaches.

In other words, give the Pats a break. Let them get their punishment, laugh at their apparent stupidity at being so blaise about their taping, but don't get too high and mighty — it may come to bite you in the butt later.
As noted...we don't chop block. REAL Bronco fans know this...are you a Patsie SPY?

[Caligula]

While I think they should be punished, and brought down a peg or two to keep them honest, I'd also like to add that if I could hazard a guess, I bet around 100% of the NFL teams have done or do things that are at least very much in the "grey" area, in order to win. As a Bronco fan, I've never been keen on our chopblocking. Not cheating, definately cheap. And the vasoline incident. And the paying under the table incident.

And I bet all others teams have plenty of skeletons in their closest as well. So while I'll snicker a little at the Pats and feel they should be punished since they were caught, I'd like to think that most fans are not so naive as to believe their teams are full of pristine, upstanding, honest players and coaches.

In other words, give the Pats a break. Let them get their punishment, laugh at their apparent stupidity at being so blaise about their taping, but don't get too high and mighty — it may come to bite you in the butt later.

YOu aren't a Bronco fan.....nice try though. Everyone knows that the Broncos don't chop block, and we didn't pay anyone under the table. Only those that don't know the truth would even make such a statement.

The fact is... you are a Patriots fan hoping to get some 'relief' from all the grief you guys are getting. How sad of you.

[Cito Pelon]

What the Broncos did wasn't affecting what was going on during play. Next thing you know we'll find out the Patriots have remote control goal posts at home that raise-lower and widen-narrow depending on the situation.

Don't give 'em any ideas. Ah hell, they probably gave that consideration already.

[Cito Pelon]

Is it possible to go over the films of previous years and see if this sort of thing was going on during the "glory" years? Is it possible that the Dolts knew this last year and managed to change up the signals and that changed the dynamics of the second half of the game last year with the Pats? Maybe that's what Denver does??

I would be more concerned with the radio or telephone signals being intercepted or even shut off by "mistake" during games. If you know the O call to the QB, a D can be signalled in that matches the play called. And the vice can be versa....

I think this really does question the integrity of the game. And I certainly believe that BB needs to sit down for the rest of the year. And I think draft picks should be taken as well.

Getting hand signals is one thing and bad enough, but messing with the radio signals is another.....

I believe that is the issue Denver had with NE last year. The Denver radios kept cutting out during the game from what I remember, but my memory is foggy. So maybe there is an issue with jamming the radio freqs assigned to opposing teams.

[Bronco Yoda]

so how long until allegations come out that the pats were also monitoring the other teams offensive calls via the radio? how far does this all go?

i'll still wait until all the facts are out, but it appears that this could spiral well out of control. i remeber when people were saying that the whole dog fighting thing with vick wasn't even news and all the allegations were false and we all know how that ended up.

id be pretty darned concerned with this if i was a pats fan.

Oh, they're worried. Trust me.

I know some pats fans and their precious better and cleaner than the rest 'doing it the pats way' as they say is now up in smoke. FOREVER!

Now you won't hear this from our resident Pats fans. All you'll get is deflection, excuses and basic denial. Comparing what they did to binoculars, lip readers or players with high IQ and a good memory. As if there is anyone stupid enough to buy this one...

I'm sure with this method they'd compare roids with protien drinks from your local health food store. Hey, they both improve over what nature gave ya right?

Pathetic

[Broncos4tw]

YOu aren't a Bronco fan.....nice try though. Everyone knows that the Broncos don't chop block, and we didn't pay anyone under the table. Only those that don't know the truth would even make such a statement.

The fact is... you are a Patriots fan hoping to get some 'relief' from all the grief you guys are getting. How sad of you.

I've been a Bronco fan well before Elway took his first snap. What, if someone has an alternate viewpoint, they aren't a fan any longer? Get over yourself. I've bled orange and blue all my years in the Army, and I've stood by our team through thick and thin.

We do chop block. Many teams do. It was our specialty. We don't CUT block. Cut blocks are not legal. Chop blocks are. Learn football. Chop blocks have often been considered cheap. I've wanted bigger lineman and less chop blocks for years now. I love my team, and I don't like stuff like vasoline on jerseys, or being considered a "cheap" team tainting us.

Like I said, many teams have done questionable stuff in games. Video cameras are nothing new, spying has happened plenty. I don't really understand why Billygoat had to cheat against this team of all. They were no threat at all. What a bonehead thing to do.

[Atwater His Ass]

I've been a Bronco fan well before Elway took his first snap. What, if someone has an alternate viewpoint, they aren't a fan any longer? Get over yourself. I've bled orange and blue all my years in the Army, and I've stood by our team through thick and thin.

We do chop block. Many teams do. It was our specialty. We don't CUT block. Cut blocks are not legal. Chop blocks are. Learn football. Chop blocks have often been considered cheap. I've wanted bigger lineman and less chop blocks for years now. I love my team, and I don't like stuff like vasoline on jerseys, or being considered a "cheap" team tainting us.

Like I said, many teams have done questionable stuff in games. Video cameras are nothing new, spying has happened plenty. I don't really understand why Billygoat had to cheat against this team of all. They were no threat at all. What a bonehead thing to do.

you might want to check your sources on that.

try here: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/penaltysummaries

see #1 under "15 Yard Penalties"? Chop Block.

[frerottenextelway]

I've been a Bronco fan well before Elway took his first snap. What, if someone has an alternate viewpoint, they aren't a fan any longer? Get over yourself. I've bled orange and blue all my years in the Army, and I've stood by our team through thick and thin.

We do chop block. Many teams do. It was our specialty. We don't CUT block. Cut blocks are not legal. Chop blocks are. Learn football. Chop blocks have often been considered cheap. I've wanted bigger lineman and less chop blocks for years now. I love my team, and I don't like stuff like vasoline on jerseys, or being considered a "cheap" team tainting us.

Like I said, many teams have done questionable stuff in games. Video cameras are nothing new, spying has happened plenty. I don't really understand why Billygoat had to cheat against this team of all. They were no threat at all. What a bonehead thing to do.

Ummm.... Maybe you should google what cut and chop blocks are!!!

[BlaK-Argentina]

We do chop block. Many teams do. It was our specialty. We don't CUT block. Cut blocks are not legal. Chop blocks are. Learn football. Chop blocks have often been considered cheap. I've wanted bigger lineman and less chop blocks for years now. I love my team, and I don't like stuff like vasoline on jerseys, or being considered a "cheap" team tainting us.



I think you got it backwards buddy.

[Caligula]

I've been a Bronco fan well before Elway took his first snap. What, if someone has an alternate viewpoint, they aren't a fan any longer? Get over yourself. I've bled orange and blue all my years in the Army, and I've stood by our team through thick and thin.

We do chop block. Many teams do. It was our specialty. We don't CUT block. Cut blocks are not legal. Chop blocks are. Learn football. Chop blocks have often been considered cheap. I've wanted bigger lineman and less chop blocks for years now. I love my team, and I don't like stuff like vasoline on jerseys, or being considered a "cheap" team tainting us.

Like I said, many teams have done questionable stuff in games. Video cameras are nothing new, spying has happened plenty. I don't really understand why Billygoat had to cheat against this team of all. They were no threat at all. What a bonehead thing to do.

Well. I was going to be coy and kind like the two posters above, but since you insinuated that I needed to "learn my football".. then I'm going to lay it out for you.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Cut BLocks are legal, Chop blocks are illegal.... we cut block (actually, EVERY TEAM IN THE NFL CUT BLOCKs) but we don't chop block. The reason I suggested before that you aren't a REAL Denver fan, is because most 'football knowledgeable' fans know the difference, and I assumed that being a "Bronco" fan, you would.

ANYONE saying that we are "cheap" for cut-blocking, or anyone BELIEVING those that say we are, doesn't know football. Cut-blocks are legal, period. Every team in the NFL uses cut-blocks. The NFL and the Competition Committee will never make it illegal because it is literally NEEDED by every team in the league. That being said, just because our system USES the cut-blocks more often than other teams does not make us cheap. Thats the equivalent of saying the INDY COLTS are 'cheap' because they throw the ball more often than other teams do. Thats like telling a boxer he is 'cheap' if he throws more body punches or more upper cuts than other boxers do. Legal is legal. Its not 'close' to being illegal. Its not 'close' to being cheap. Every rule in the book is 'close' to being illegal.

So I don't think our team is 'cheap' in any way. DL like to complain about the cut-blocks, because it makes their job harder. Its much easier to throw a blocker away when they are up around the shoulders all the time. How I pity them. If we were 'cheap' with cut-blocks..or if what they try to suggest is true (that it causes more injuries), then the Denver Broncos would lead the league EVERY year with illegal block calls, or penalties for throwing illegal blocks. However, we never do. In fact, ironically enough, teams that use the 'traditional' blocking schemes lead the league in illegal blocks each year. Those 'illegal' blocks are the ones deemed dangerous because they cause injury. So what you would wish for us to do is to take on a more traditional blocking scheme that traditionally throws more 'dangerous' blocks. Funny huh?

Also, the Denver Broncos NEVER have more injuries occured against them for blocks (legal or not legal) than any other team in the NFL.

But back on subject against your Patriots. Belicheck had to cheat against this team because he HATES the fact that Mangini took a head coaching job within the division. Belicheck CHEATED because that is what he knows now. Did you notice the score was only 14-7 at halftime? FUnny how the Patriots were able to make the 'adjustments' to put their team so far out front huh? Yeah.

So if you think the Broncos are cheap.... then I would say you need to do more bleeding Blue-and-Orange... cause I ain't buying it. 8')

[footstepsfrom#27]

I've been a Bronco fan well before Elway took his first snap. What, if someone has an alternate viewpoint, they aren't a fan any longer? Get over yourself. I've bled orange and blue all my years in the Army, and I've stood by our team through thick and thin.

We do chop block. Many teams do. It was our specialty. We don't CUT block. Cut blocks are not legal. Chop blocks are. Learn football. Chop blocks have often been considered cheap. I've wanted bigger lineman and less chop blocks for years now. I love my team, and I don't like stuff like vasoline on jerseys, or being considered a "cheap" team tainting us.
Cripes...I thought these Cowpie fans down here were dummies...LOL

[azbroncfan]

Footsteps should be stepping in soon to say "hold on! Nobody make any judgements until all of the facts are in place."

[footstepsfrom#27]

Footsteps should be stepping in soon to say "hold on! Nobody make any judgements until all of the facts are in place."
You're such a funny guy.

http://woodyallenitalia.tripod.com/images-wa/wa-big.jpg

[Canmore]

The Patsies should be penalized harshly and fines mean nothing. Let’s compare this to the number 2 sport in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.orangemane.com/BB/ /><st1:country-region w:st=<st1:place w:st="on">America</st1:place></st1:country-region>, NASCAR. Everyone there is trying to get a competitive advantage just like the NFL. And NACAR wants parity just like the NFL. There idea of the perfect race is on the last lap there are 43 cars out of 43 cars on the lead lap. (We wouldn’t want Bill Elliot running down the field by himself 2 laps down at <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Talladega</st1:place></st1:City> again.) To do this NASCAR makes everyone use the same everything except cylinder heads and intake manifolds. When you get caught cheating, which happens, (You ain’t trying if you’re not cheating) they are pretty harsh with penalties depending on the severity of the infraction. This regularly includes banning the crew chief, Belicheck up to 4 races and taking away drivers points, draft picks. If Goodell does anything less than ban Belicheck from the Patriots locker room and take away draft picks, I think a number 1 would be acceptable, he is condoning this action and should be replaced.

[Bob]

to me this is just gamesmanship..i dontt hink its the biggest deal

Moron, its cheating.

[BABronco]

I guess I should've been more specific, but I was referring to the Chargers.

yeah might have helped if i would have thought about it for more than a half second. :dummy:

[TailgateNut]

I believe that is the issue Denver had with NE last year. The Denver radios kept cutting out during the game from what I remember, but my memory is foggy. So maybe there is an issue with jamming the radio freqs assigned to opposing teams.

The Last time I heard of Communication problems during one of our games was during a skins game.

[Rock Chalk]

Well. I was going to be coy and kind like the two posters above, but since you insinuated that I needed to "learn my football".. then I'm going to lay it out for you.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Cut BLocks are legal, Chop blocks are illegal.... we cut block (actually, EVERY TEAM IN THE NFL CUT BLOCKs) but we don't chop block. The reason I suggested before that you aren't a REAL Denver fan, is because most 'football knowledgeable' fans know the difference, and I assumed that being a "Bronco" fan, you would.

ANYONE saying that we are "cheap" for cut-blocking, or anyone BELIEVING those that say we are, doesn't know football. Cut-blocks are legal, period. Every team in the NFL uses cut-blocks. The NFL and the Competition Committee will never make it illegal because it is literally NEEDED by every team in the league. That being said, just because our system USES the cut-blocks more often than other teams does not make us cheap. Thats the equivalent of saying the INDY COLTS are 'cheap' because they throw the ball more often than other teams do. Thats like telling a boxer he is 'cheap' if he throws more body punches or more upper cuts than other boxers do. Legal is legal. Its not 'close' to being illegal. Its not 'close' to being cheap. Every rule in the book is 'close' to being illegal.

So I don't think our team is 'cheap' in any way. DL like to complain about the cut-blocks, because it makes their job harder. Its much easier to throw a blocker away when they are up around the shoulders all the time. How I pity them. If we were 'cheap' with cut-blocks..or if what they try to suggest is true (that it causes more injuries), then the Denver Broncos would lead the league EVERY year with illegal block calls, or penalties for throwing illegal blocks. However, we never do. In fact, ironically enough, teams that use the 'traditional' blocking schemes lead the league in illegal blocks each year. Those 'illegal' blocks are the ones deemed dangerous because they cause injury. So what you would wish for us to do is to take on a more traditional blocking scheme that traditionally throws more 'dangerous' blocks. Funny huh?

Also, the Denver Broncos NEVER have more injuries occured against them for blocks (legal or not legal) than any other team in the NFL.

But back on subject against your Patriots. Belicheck had to cheat against this team because he HATES the fact that Mangini took a head coaching job within the division. Belicheck CHEATED because that is what he knows now. Did you notice the score was only 14-7 at halftime? FUnny how the Patriots were able to make the 'adjustments' to put their team so far out front huh? Yeah.

So if you think the Broncos are cheap.... then I would say you need to do more bleeding Blue-and-Orange... cause I ain't buying it. 8')

I dont know who you are but I like you, you are gonna fit in good around here.

I fully expect to be arguing with you at some point in the future.

[fontaine]

They will make an example of the Patriots because they are the Patriots. And most teams are jealous and would love to knock them down a peg. It's that simple.

To me, this is the equivalent of a coach/manager checking the curve of an opponent's hockey stick or having a bat checked for cork. It's more of a mind game than anything else.

It's a broken rule and there will be consequences, but there are insiders around the league coming forward saying it's either no big deal or saying it's a common thing.

It's not much different than a scout sitting there with binoculars and a cell phone. That's why the coaches block their mouths with the clipboard when they talk to the players.

If anyone thinks it had any influence on the outcome of the Jets game, you're nuts.


Will make an example of the Patriots? Like when they did last year by simply giving them a warning?
ROFL!

Yeah that was some hardcore punishment the NFL dished out last year. A stern warning!

Secondly if it's no big deal, and it had no influence, then why do it in the first place and how come it's escalated into such a big deal now?

[Jens1893]

Now, this got me thinking a little. Old Dude said, and I agree, that they probably did this to get an advantage for future meetings and before our AFC Divisional Game against the Patriots I remember the media pointing out Belichick´s outstanding record in rematches when his team plays another team 2 or more times during a season. Belichick is now 19-9 in rematches and 6-4 when his team lost the first game against the other opponent in a season.

2000 Patriots 5-11 ... 1-5 in the AFC East ... 1-2 in Rematches

| 2 | at New York Jets | L | 19-20 |
| 4 | at Miami Dolphins | L | 3-10 |
| 7 | New York Jets | L | 17-34 |
| 10 | Buffalo Bills | L | 13-16 |
| 16 | at Buffalo Bills | W | 13-10 |
| 17 | Miami Dolphins | L | 24-27 |

2001 Patriots 11-5 ... 4-2 in the AFC East ... 3-0 in Rematches

| 2 | New York Jets | L | 3-10 |
| 4 | at Miami Dolphins | L | 10-30 |
| 9 | Buffalo Bills | W | 21-11 |
| 12 | at New York Jets | W | 17-16 |
| 14 | at Buffalo Bills | W | 12- 9 |
| 15 | Miami Dolphins | W | 20-13 |

2002 Patriots 9-7 ... 4-2 in the AFC East ... 2-1 in Rematches

| 2 | at New York Jets | W | 44- 7 |
| 5 | at Miami Dolphins | L | 13-26 |
| 9 | at Buffalo Bills | W | 38- 7 |
| 14 | Buffalo Bills | W | 27-17 |
| 16 | New York Jets | L | 17-30 |
| 17 | Miami Dolphins | W | 27-24 |

2003 Patrios 14-2 ... 5-1 in the AFC East ... 5-0 in Rematches

| 1 | at Buffalo Bills | L | 0-31 |
| 3 | New York Jets | W | 23-16 |
| 5 | Tennessee Titans | W | 38-30 |
| 7 | at Miami Dolphins | W | 19-13 |
| 13 | at Indianapolis Colts | W | 38-34 |
| 14 | Miami Dolphins | W | 12- 0 |
| 16 | at New York Jets | W | 21-16 |
| 17 | Buffalo Bills | W | 31- 0 |

AFC Divisional Playoff: won 17 - 14 vs. Tennessee Titans
AFC Championship Game: won 24 - 14 vs. Indianapolis Colts

2004 Patriots ... 5-1 in the AFC East ... 4-1 in Rematches

| 1 | Indianapolis Colts | W | 27-24 |
| 4 | at Buffalo Bills | W | 31-17 |
| 5 | Miami Dolphins | W | 24-10 |
| 7 | New York Jets | W | 13- 7 |
| 8 | at Pittsburgh Steelers | L | 20-34 |
| 10 | Buffalo Bills | W | 29- 6 |
| 15 | at Miami Dolphins | L | 28-29 |
| 16 | at New York Jets | W | 23- 7 |

AFC Divisional Playoff: won 20 - 3 vs. Indianapolis Colts
AFC Championship Game: won 41 - 27 at Pittsburgh Steelers

2005 Patriots 10-6 ... 5-1 in the AFC East ... 2-2 in Rematches

| 6 | at Denver Broncos | L | 20-28 |
| 8 | Buffalo Bills | W | 21-16 |
| 10 | at Miami Dolphins | W | 23-16 |
| 13 | New York Jets | W | 16- 3 |
| 14 | at Buffalo Bills | W | 35- 7 |
| 16 | at New York Jets | W | 31-21 |
| 17 | Miami Dolphins | L | 26-28 |


AFC Divisional Playoff: lost 13 - 27 at Denver Broncos

2006 Patriots 12-4 ... 4-2 AFC East ... 2-3 in Rematches

| 1 | Buffalo Bills | W | 19-17 |
| 2 | at New York Jets | W | 24-17 |
| 5 | Miami Dolphins | W | 20-10 |
| 7 | at Buffalo Bills | W | 28- 6 |
| 9 | Indianapolis Colts | L | 20-27 |
| 10 | New York Jets | L | 14-17 |
| 14 | at Miami Dolphins | L | 0-21 |

Postseason
AFC Wildcard Game: won 37 - 16 vs. New York Jets
AFC Championship Game: lost 34 - 38 at Indianapolis Colts

[TheReverend]

What really sticks in my mind is that 2nd superbowl run when they were off to a horrible start and got smoked by buffallo by like 38-3, and then later in the year they beat buffallo down by 38-3... i wonder...

[TailgateNut]

What really sticks in my mind is that 2nd superbowl run when they were off to a horrible start and got smoked by buffallo by like 38-3, and then later in the year they beat buffallo down by 38-3... i wonder...


It's like digging into a ****-pile. The deeper you dig, the more **** you find!

[Paladin]

....I fully expect to be arguing with you at some point in the future.


Now there's good news..........

[bronco_diesel]

i've been trying to find different takes on this from media outlets. the thing i find disturbing is a common trend with the following question:
"they were already so good, why did they have to cheat?"

it doesn't take much to figure out the flaw in that one. first, i will say i do believe the pats are talented. everyone in the nfl is talented.

the problem i have with this question is: it is the incorrect question to ask. rather the proper questions are: "how much did this benefit and how long have they been doing this?" and the most important question "is this the method that put them over the top?"

it's not so much as why did they do this since they were on top - but rather is this the method that put them on top?

unfortunatly for pats fans, this now puts a big * on their three trophies. i find this to be unfortunate for the nfl in a time when integrity is a huge question mark in sports - now the nfl has their own scandal to deal with.

i doubt this is a one time deal - and i doubt they are the only team doing it. i hope this is not the practice of the majority of teams - having said that, i hope they come down hard on billicheck. not because i dislike him - as i do - but because he cheated and got caught.

[broncosteven]

What really sticks in my mind is that 2nd superbowl run when they were off to a horrible start and got smoked by buffallo by like 38-3, and then later in the year they beat buffallo down by 38-3... i wonder...

Therin lies the rub...no one will ever be certian that they did not cheat to get to or win those games, Belly a Legacy Tarnished.

[PatsWin2002]

Shady Brady & Bill Belicheat - The Video

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[55CrushEm]

Shady Brady & Bill Belicheat - The Video

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0EU1O-hGxgg"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0EU1O-hGxgg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

ROFL! That was AWESOME !!

[NFLBRONCO]

BB hasn't done that much since CW and RC left.

Great video I think that should be played every game Pats play.

[Broncos4tw]

Yea, I got them backwards... it's almost as pathetic to jump all over that as it is when people lambast others for small grammatical errors. Cut.. chop.. you know what I meant. And you're full of crap if you don't think we have done it more than other teams in the league. It was Gibbs MO. You think we had a great running game with the smallest line in the league because our RBs were so damned good, they found every hole? No. We cut block folks left and right, that's why. I never said it wasn't legal. Cheap? Yea, most NFL players say that cutblocks in excess is a dirty way to play.

Hell, the NFL modified the rule regarding chopblocks because of Denver!

I'm sorry you feel that you must be a blind homer in all regards to be a "real fan." If this board is of that type, this is a crappier board than I realized. I thought it was looking good here, too.

Denver is an awesome team. I support them no matter what, always have, always will. Whenever people get me gifts, first on the agenda for them is Bronco stuff typically. I have been to countless games in the old stadium in the South Stands.

I am entitled to my opinion. I've always felt that Denver needed to get back to the goold ol' large line method of opening running lanes. Once Gibbs left, our production has diminished. We are losing lineman. What happens once Nalen is gone? We don't want to be known as the smallest line in the league forever.

My orginal point was that people shouldn't throw stones. I've seen Patsfan here for a long while, even when I just browsed this board and didn't post. He was always considerate, posted relevant Bronco info, and was never a trash talker. But as soon as their coach makes a bonedhead decision to be a dumbass, many of you rag all over him. That's lame.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Yea, I got them backwards... it's almost as pathetic to jump all over that as it is when people lambast others for small grammatical errors. Cut.. chop.. you know what I meant. And you're full of crap if you don't think we have done it more than other teams in the league. It was Gibbs MO. You think we had a great running game with the smallest line in the league because our RBs were so damned good, they found every hole? No. We cut block folks left and right, that's why. I never said it wasn't legal. Cheap? Yea, most NFL players say that cutblocks in excess is a dirty way to play.

Hell, the NFL modified the rule regarding chopblocks because of Denver!

I'm sorry you feel that you must be a blind homer in all regards to be a "real fan." If this board is of that type, this is a crappier board than I realized. I thought it was looking good here, too.

Denver is an awesome team. I support them no matter what, always have, always will. Whenever people get me gifts, first on the agenda for them is Bronco stuff typically. I have been to countless games in the old stadium in the South Stands.

I am entitled to my opinion. I've always felt that Denver needed to get back to the goold ol' large line method of opening running lanes. Once Gibbs left, our production has diminished. We are losing lineman. What happens once Nalen is gone? We don't want to be known as the smallest line in the league forever.

My orginal point was that people shouldn't throw stones. I've seen Patsfan here for a long while, even when I just browsed this board and didn't post. He was always considerate, posted relevant Bronco info, and was never a trash talker. But as soon as their coach makes a bonedhead decision to be a dumbass, many of you rag all over him. That's lame.Exactly when was that ("goold ol' large line method")?