Is our destiny already written? You decide.

[defenseman]

HOW LONG DO WE HAVE?

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."

"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover t hey can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."

"From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal
policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years" "During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the
following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamlin University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:

Number of States won by:
Gore: 19
Bush: 29

Square miles of land won by:
Gore: 580,000
Bush: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by:
Gore: 127 million
Bush: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
Gore: 13.2
Bush: 2.1


Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare.

"Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegal's and they vote, then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.

Apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom. Thanks for reading

Friend of mine sent this. Thought it would appropriate for absorption here. Enjoy.....dman

[TheDave]

http://lighthousepatriotjournal.wordpress.com/2006/09/17/myth-blaster-how-long-do-we-have/


Myth Blaster Verdict: Variable.

First, the second part of the e-mail attributes 2000 election statistics to a Professor Joseph Olson, Hamline University. A real person who sent an e-mail to Snopes and told them he did not write it. Secondly, after checking with the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data the numbers are incorrect.

This portion of the e-mail appeared separately in 2001 concerning the statistics and was added to the “Tyler” quotation.

The first part, a quote attributed to “Alexander Tyler” was sent by someone who spelled his name wrong. The person was Alexander Fraser Tytler, Scottish historian and professor who wrote several books in the late 1700s and early 1800s. Also, only part of the quote is attributed to Tytler, which is the following according to Bartleby, and even then it is tagged as unverified. Here is the real quote:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

The reason why it is unverified is that the words above could not be found in any of Tytler’s books - by me, Snopes or other folks who researched.

The second part of “Tyler’s” quote I have seen somewhere, and found it was used in a speech by Senator Strom Thurmond addressing the Aberdeen Chamber of Commerce in Aberdeen, South Dakota, January 6th, 1965, which he stated:

“I am reminded that the studies of R. G. LeTourneau show that the average age of the world’s great governments has been 200 years, and that the general steps through which they progressed were: from bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from abundance to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back again to bondage.”

Someone added it in to Professor Tytler’s quotation. It is quite possible that the words were in one of his lectures and not his books. A Google search for “from bondage to spiritual faith” produces about 1,830,000 results. Loren Collins came up with the same information as I did and then some, and is listed in the top ten searches for the phrase above.

But whoever wrote the original e-mail, conglomerated several pieces of information, probably from e-mail they received and it turned into a chain mail of misinformation. Regardless of these findings and whoever wrote it, the first part that is attributed to a Scottish professor of the 1700s and whose name is spelled wrong, the words ring true in respect to the history of democracy – which we should pay attention to in today’s America. Here is the restructured text in its entirety:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.”


There is also additional info about the 2nd half of the email here...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

[Bronco Bob]

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare.




Olson is an idiot. Does he honestly believe the people of New York, Boston,
Los Angeles do no work, or even work less hard than someone in Tupelo?
Is Olson even aware that the highest rate of welfare is in the red
southern states?

[Crushaholic]

The "restructured" text still indicates that a country whose people heavily depend on the government can't survive for very long. Hopefully, that can be corrected in the future...

[Bronco Bob]

The "restructured" text still indicates that a country whose people heavily depend on the government can't survive for very long.

So care to give odds on how long it takes before Sweden collapses completely?

[defenseman]

So care to give odds on how long it takes before Sweden collapses completely?

so your desire is to be heavily dependent on the government. As much as folks bad mouth the gov here, I would think it would be the LAST thing one would want to depend on. And second, a socialistic society will be where we end up if we don't watch out. No thanks. I'll vote democracy...dman

[Bronco Bob]

so your desire is to be heavily dependent on the government. As much as folks bad mouth the gov here, I would think it would be the LAST thing one would want to depend on. And second, a socialistic society will be where we end up if we don't watch out. No thanks. I'll vote democracy...dman

Who says Sweden isn't democratic? Who says people in Sweden don't enjoy
a higher standard of living than people in the US do? Plus they have a lot
of tall beautiful blond women there. :wiggle: If I were a young man I
might be tempted to move there.

[W*GS]

Number of States won by:
Gore: 19
Bush: 29

Square miles of land won by:
Gore: 580,000
Bush: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by:
Gore: 127 million
Bush: 143 million

All three factoids are completely irrelevant. "Square miles of land"? Idiotic.

[Rohirrim]

Olson is an idiot. Does he honestly believe the people of New York, Boston,
Los Angeles do no work, or even work less hard than someone in Tupelo?
Is Olson even aware that the highest rate of welfare is in the red
southern states?

Yer missin the point. "Real" Uhmerkans vote for Republicans. It's them welfare sucking, crime causing, anti-John Wayne, phony Uhmerkans in New York City who is ruinin this God fearin country. ;)

[REB]

"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."

"From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal
policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."


I can believe that.

It's sad how more and more people cry for more and bigger govt. Gimme, gimme, gimme

[Spider]

E mail is a load of **** ........ as for benefits , all the people that are saying that once entitlements start everybody wants them ..Where in the **** have you been the last 50+ years ? Now answer this question honestly if you could make the same amount off of welfare as you do working , would you quit work ?
I know I wouldnt ( though I probably could cause of the triplets ) I am at near top of my profession , I love my work .........

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Yer missin the point. "Real" Uhmerkans vote for Republicans. It's them welfare sucking, crime causing, anti-John Wayne, phony Uhmerkans in New York City who is ruinin this God fearin country. ;)

Amen, brother!

God bless the values party!

http://www.bartcop.com/craig-restrooms-k.jpg

[RMT]

just read the book of Revelations - it sure seems relevant.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

just read the book of Revelations - it sure seems relevant.

Yep.

If Bush has accomplished one thing, it might be to force non-believers to reconsider that particular book of the Bible, eh?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

HOW LONG DO WE HAVE?
Friend of mine sent this. Thought it would appropriate for absorption here. Enjoy.....dmanWhat's the source for this baloney?

------------------------------------------------------------
Origins: (http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp) The piece quoted above has been circulating on the Internet since shortly after the November 2000 presidential election. We haven't examined it ourselves yet, but Mike Powell of Kennewick, Washington, was kind enough to send us his analysis, which we're happy to include
here.

1. The population of the counties and square miles of area won by each Bush and Gore appear to be accurate. They are consistent with the election-result map published by USA Today on 20 November 2000.

2. The number of states won by each candidate is wrong, but the numbers given (29 and 19) imply this piece was written before the results of the Florida and New Mexico vote-counts were determined. The final tallies were 30 states for Bush and 20 for Gore.

3. The quote from "Alexander Tyler" is very likely fictitious. His name was actually "Lord Woodhouselee, Alexander Fraser Tytler," and he was a Scottish historian/professor who wrote several books in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

However, there is no record of The Fall of the Athenian Republic or The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic in the Library of Congress, which has several other titles by Tytler. This quote has also been cited as being from Tytler's Universal History or from his Elements of General History, Ancient and Modern, books that do exist. These books seem the most likely source of the quote, as they contain extensive discussions of the political systems in historic civilizations, including Athens. Universal History was published after, and based upon, Elements of General History, which was a collection of Professor Tytler's lecture notes.

Tytler's book, Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century, is available for viewing and searching on-line. The complete text was searched for each of the following phrases:

* Athenian Republic
* democracy
* generous gifts
* public treasury
* loose fiscal
* fiscal
* bondage
* 200 years
* two hundred years
* spiritual faith

In no case was text identified that was remotely similar in words or intent to the alleged Tytler quote.

4. Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him. Professor Olson was contacted (by me) via e-mail, and he confirmed that he had no authorship or involvement in this matter. And, as Fayette Citizen editor Dave Hamrick wrote back in January 2001:
I really enjoyed one recent message that was circulated extremely widely, at least among conservatives. It gave several interesting "facts" supposedly compiled by statisticians and political scientists about the counties across the nation that voted for George Bush and the ones that voted for Al Gore in the recent election.

Supposedly, the people in the counties for Bush had more education, more income, ad infinitum, than the counties for Gore.

I didn't have time to check them all out, but I was curious about one item in particular... the contention that the murder rate in the Gore counties was about a billion times higher than in the Bush counties.

This was attributed to a Professor Joseph Olson at the Hamline University School of Law. I never heard of such a university, but went online and found it. And Prof. Olson does exist.

"Now I'm getting somewhere," I thought.

But in response to my e-mail, Olson said the "research" was attributed to him erroneously. He said it came from a Sheriff Jay Printz in Montana. I e-mailed Sheriff Printz, and guess what? He didn't do the research either, and didn't remember who had e-mailed it to him.

In other words, he got the same legend e-mailed to him and passed it on to Olson without checking it out, and when Olson passed it on, someone thought it sounded better if a law professor had done the research, and so it grew.

Who knows where it originally came from, but it's just not true.

5. The county-by-county murder-rate comparison presented in this piece is wrong.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice (DoJ), in the year 2000 the national murder rate was about 5.5 per 100,000 residents. Homicide data by county for 1999 and 2000 can be downloaded from the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data (NAJCD), and the counties won by Gore and Bush can be identified using the county-by-county election results made available by CNN. (The NACJD provides not only the number of reported murders for each county, but also the population for each.) The average murder rate in the counties won by Gore vs. the rate in the counties won by Bush can be determined from this data.

By calculating the murder rate for each county and then taking the averages, we find a murder rate (defined as number of murders per 100,000 residents) of about 5.2 for the "average" Gore county and 3.3 for the average Bush county. But since people, rather than counties, commit murders, a more appropriate approach is to calculate the total number of murders in the counties won by each candidate and divide that figure by the total number of residents in those counties. This more appropriate method yields the following average murder rates in counties won by each candidate:

# Gore: 6.5
# Bush: 4.1


There is a distinct difference between these two numbers, but it is nowhere near as large as the quoted e-mail message states (i.e., 13.2 for Gore vs. 2.1 for Bush). Note that the average of these two figures is 5.3, which, as expected, is very close to the reported national murder rate of 5.5.

Last updated: 4 September 2007

The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2007

[RMT]

Yep.

If Bush has accomplished one thing, it might be to force non-believers to reconsider that particular book of the Bible, eh?

it's just a matter of time before we become one big country with mexico and canada ...

[yavoon]

so the british empire entered bondage? news to me.

[atomicbloke]

Who says Sweden isn't democratic? Who says people in Sweden don't enjoy
a higher standard of living than people in the US do? Plus they have a lot
of tall beautiful blond women there. :wiggle: If I were a young man I
might be tempted to move there.

Sweden? What is Sweden? Who is Sweden?

Is it a province in the country that is not the United States of America?

It must be a real third world hell hole with pathetic people living in sewers since it's not part of the United States of America and hence does not have God's blessings.

[Rohirrim]

just read the book of Revelations - it sure seems relevant.

Even Martin Luther thought Revelations was a little "fringe." He put it in the appendix of his personal version of the scriptures. :wiggle:

[defenseman]

[QUOTE=Bronco_Beerslug;1700991]What's the source for this baloney?

Relax BB, just wanted to get a little discussion going in this area. It appears to have accomplished that......dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

[QUOTE=Bronco_Beerslug;1700991]What's the source for this baloney?

Relax BB, just wanted to get a little discussion going in this area. It appears to have accomplished that......dmanDiscussion of what, posting BS as some kind of a story? You really should refrain from posting email spam as GOP gospel.

[defenseman]

[QUOTE=defenseman;1701386]Discussion of what, posting BS as some kind of a story? You really should refrain from posting email spam as GOP gospel.

Gospel? I never stated it was gospel. Second, I posted no link. Strictly food for thought. If you believe it's BS, hey, that's your call. I have no problem with that. I won't be adjusting what I post based on your point of view, just like I wouldn't expect you to adjust yours if I were to believe yours is garbage about half the time.......dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

[QUOTE=Bronco_Beerslug;1701390]

Gospel? I never stated it was gospel. Second, I posted no link. Strictly food for thought. If you believe it's BS, hey, that's your call. I have no problem with that. I won't be adjusting what I post based on your point of view, just like I wouldn't expect you to adjust yours if I were to believe yours is garbage about half the time.......dmanYou posted no link because it's email spam and there is no link.

But it's clear you thought it was some kind of GOP factsheet, thus your reasoning for posting this baloney.

[defenseman]

[QUOTE=defenseman;1701434]You posted no link because it's email spam and there is no link.

But it's clear you thought it was some kind of GOP factsheet, thus your reasoning for posting this baloney.

You know, you really are a freaking broken record. Nothing could be further from the truth. You gotta be one hell of a lawyer to come up with the conjecture you apply here sometimes. Let's see ...Friend of mine sent me this...Ok, that's simple, yes a friend of mine sent it to me. Okay now for the second part, "thought it would appropriate for absorption here" . Let's spend some time on this , shall we. Did I say i endorsed it? No. Did I feel it may be of interest to some of the folks here for general reading, obviously yes, however, again 'absorption' dentotes reading and commenting. Did I state anywhere that the document in question was in any way factual? No, don't see that either. Did the post in question generate some discussion? Sure it did, exactly my intention. Could one possibly get something out of it? Sure they could, facts lined up perfectly or not, it will generate some discussion and provoke thought. Not unlike Non-factual and slanted op-ed's posted throughout the country on a daily basis, by millions of writers, consumed by millions of readers. Okay, I'm done....in short, your conjecture is unfounded and unsupported. that said, I'm done with this...dman

[ak1971]

[QUOTE=defenseman;1701386]Discussion of what, posting BS as some kind of a story? You really should refrain from posting email spam as GOP gospel.

replace GOP with 'progressive'/democrat or whatever..viola LABFs MO.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

[QUOTE=Bronco_Beerslug;1701443]

You know, you really are a freaking broken record. Nothing could be further from the truth. You gotta be one hell of a lawyer to come up with the conjecture you apply here sometimes. Let's see ...Friend of mine sent me this...Ok, that's simple, yes a friend of mine sent it to me. Okay now for the second part, "thought it would appropriate for absorption here" . Let's spend some time on this , shall we. Did I say i endorsed it? No. Did I feel it may be of interest to some of the folks here for general reading, obviously yes, however, again 'absorption' dentotes reading and commenting. Did I state anywhere that the document in question was in any way factual? No, don't see that either. Did the post in question generate some discussion? Sure it did, exactly my intention. Could one possibly get something out of it? Sure they could, facts lined up perfectly or not, it will generate some discussion and provoke thought. Not unlike Non-factual and slanted op-ed's posted throughout the country on a daily basis, by millions of writers, consumed by millions of readers. Okay, I'm done....in short, your conjecture is unfounded and unsupported. that said, I'm done with this...dmanPosting spam is grounds for banning........................................... ........













LOL



You were duped just not man enough to admit it.

[defenseman]

[QUOTE=defenseman;1701461]Posting spam is grounds for banning........................................... ........













LOL



You were duped just not man enough to admit it.

Believe what you will, water off a duck's back...dman

[Smiling Assassin27]

Several Founding Fathers believed that a democracy can only sustain itself if its people are moral. They had an opportunity to build a democracy but chose not to. They saw democracy as something operated solely by direct majority vote of the people--a sort of mobocracy with the source of law being the popular feeling of the people. In other words, in a democracy, if 50.1% of the vote says that murder is good, then the law of the land becomes 'murder is allowable and objectively good'. The Republic they built operated on rule of law based upon immutable principles, so murder could never be lawful.

Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.--John Adams

[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion.--Noah Webster

[mosca]

So care to give odds on how long it takes before Sweden collapses completely?
Those odds have probably increased as of late, due to the increasing amount of Muslims immigrating to the country and siphoning money from the Swedish welfare state. It's a widespread problem that Europe is only beginning to address.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You really should refrain from posting email spam as GOP gospel.

He can't refrain - this is the only kind of fuel a Bush backer has left in his tank these days.

:D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

replace GOP with 'progressive'/democrat or whatever..viola LABFs MO.

Translation: "I can't tell the difference between e-mail spam and mainstream news sources, but this much I know:

All those polls that have GeeDubya's approval numbers around 30% and all those stories in major newspapers documenting Dubya's and the GOP's frauds, felonies, and failures - why, they're all part of a vast, left-wing conspiracy to descredit both the president and the honor and integrity party!"

:rofl: