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Bronco Bob
08-23-2007, 12:07 PM
In Bush's latest flip-flop in which after years of denying the Iraq war and
the Vietnam war had anything in common, Bush, in a complete about
face, is now trying to equate Iraq with Vietnam. But as usual, Bush
gets it wrong again, as well as the history of Asia in general.


Don't know much about history

Why is George Bush suddenly making parallels between Iraq and Vietnam? Because he's preparing to shift the blame for another disaster.

Today, it seems, was "Asian Wars Analogy Day" in the Bush administration, as the president uncorked a whole series of odd historical analogies in defense of his Iraq policy. "In the aftermath of Japan's surrender," he reminded an audience of the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Missouri, "many thought it naive to help the Japanese transform themselves into a democracy. Then, as now, the argued that some people were not fit for freedom."

In fact, it seems rather doubtful that any substantial body of opinion actually did argue this about Japan.

Perhaps some people argued that it was more important to the United States that Japan be a reliable ally against the Soviet Union than that it be a democracy. Which, of course, is precisely what American policy was. As former Tokyo CIA station chief Horace Feldman is quoted in Tim Weiner's new book Legacy of Ashes "We ran Japan during the occupation, and we ran it a different way in these years after the occupation," ensuring the Liberal Democratic Party a basic monopoly of political power in exchange for deference to American security policy in Asia. Despite this meddling, Japan did emerge from the post-war occupation with the basic scheme of a liberal democracy in place, which was all to the good. Elsewhere in Asia, however, things didn't work out so well, and countries like Taiwan, South Korea, and the Philippines were subjected to America-friendly military dictatorships that only became democratic decades later as a result of popular protest.

One points this out not to condemn America's Asia policy of the 1940s and 1950s, but merely to observe that democracy-promotion wasn't especially high on the agenda. This serves, in turn, as a reminder that the United States hardly invaded Japan (or Germany or Italy for that matter) in order to build democracies. Rather, Japan launched a sneak attack on American soil, Germany invaded Poland, both were hell-bent on world domination, and the allies prosecuted World War II as a fundamentally defensive measure. The contrast with Iraq could not be more stark.

Nor, indeed, could the contrast between homogenous, resource-poor Japan and heterogeneous, oil-rich Iraq be much greater. Indeed, though leading war advocate Paul Wolfowitz demonstrated gross ignorance of Iraq when he testified before congress that the country had no history of ethnic strife, he was showing a keen awareness of the fact that a history of ethnic strife would make the country an unpromising proving ground for gunpoint democratization.

All this, however, was but the appetizer for a shocking embrace of a historically illiterate account of the Vietnam war. "One unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens," Bush said "whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like 'boat people,' 're-education camps' and 'killing fields.'" While it is of course true that people died in South Vietnam following American withdrawal, millions died during the United States' years of military involvement as well, a great many killed by the American military at enormous expense and with no end in sight. The killing fields of Pol Pot's Cambodia, meanwhile, were if anything more a consequence of America's destabilization of the region than of America's departure.

Unenlightening as Bush's analogies may be, they do serve as an interesting sign of the times. For years, war-supporters derided any efforts to draw parallels between Iraq and Vietnam as unwarranted, now they're eager to draw them. The reason, most likely, is that while the hawks lost the war in Vietnam and eventually even lost the debate over the war, they believe themselves to have eventually won the larger political battle as Ronald Reagan embraced Bush-style revisionist accounts of the war in southeast Asia as part of his march to the White House in 1980.

For months now, many conservatives have been fundamentally positioning themselves for the post-war era, readying the arguments that will blame the failure of the venture in Iraq on its opponents rather than its architects. That Bush himself has chosen to join them is, perhaps, on some level the clearest reflection of the reality that the president knows perfectly well that the war is unwinnable, and blame-shifting now the best hope for saving his historical legacy.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/matthew_yglesias/2007/08/dont_know_much_about_history.html

Rigs11
08-23-2007, 02:16 PM
Can't believe that he has the nerve to use vietnam. A war that he got out of going to.So accorsing to numbnuts if we would have stayed in vietnam and lost thousands more soldiers we would have 'won'?:spit:

TailgateNut
08-23-2007, 02:23 PM
The title says it all. Just needs to be shortened to "BUSH FAILS"!

Rohirrim
08-23-2007, 03:32 PM
The killing fields of Cambodia were in operation long before we left Vietnam and had nothing to do with our presence in Vietnam, on way or another. An out and out lie by Bush. Read the Hirsh article I posted in the thread "Bush Mangles History..." to see the real reason why the U.S. leaving Vietnam became a success. What disgusts me more than anything is how the Dems and the media are just lying down lapping this garbage up without comment. This retarded C student pep squad reject is writing history, and the American people are just sitting there, nodding their heads as if they were all full of Soma. Maybe they are.

Rigs11
08-23-2007, 05:52 PM
The killing fields of Cambodia were in operation long before we left Vietnam and had nothing to do with our presence in Vietnam, on way or another. An out and out lie by Bush. Read the Hirsh article I posted in the thread "Bush Mangles History..." to see the real reason why the U.S. leaving Vietnam became a success. What disgusts me more than anything is how the Dems and the media are just lying down lapping this garbage up without comment. This retarded C student pep squad reject is writing history, and the American people are just sitting there, nodding their heads as if they were all full of Soma. Maybe they are.

Yup. what's that province that the govt keeps bringing up as pointing to improvements in iraq?basra?The reason that violence is down and stability is up is becasue the troops pulled out of there.The 'terrorists' were quickly dealt with by the local population.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-24-2007, 02:09 AM
Yup. what's that province that the govt keeps bringing up as pointing to improvements in iraq?basra?The reason that violence is down and stability is up is becasue the troops pulled out of there.The 'terrorists' were quickly dealt with by the local population.

http://www.bartcop.com/12-billion.jpg

Bob
08-24-2007, 04:02 AM
We could win this war, but it requires the ability to understand the nature of the enemy -- and what they are capable of. Our entire governmental structure is setup to protect us from large external conventional fights -- we are "protected" as we are intertwined economically with others -- this may work well with Europe, and China and other greedy capitalist systems-- but not so much from those who are fighting a "holy war" where 19 can cause great destruction from within. We are good at fighting with tanks and planes, but we are not well-suited to fight long wars of will because of traitors from within. If Christianity is just as threatening to you as radical Islam, (ie Rosie) then go ahead with your various distractions... talk about your "important issues' of cradle to grave government programs that will weaken us even more, open the border for an eventual vote, undermine the war effort for a vote in 2008!!! I mean those we fight respect compromise and nuance – it is working well in European countries that are incrementally being forced to submit to Allah.

Rohirrim
08-24-2007, 09:51 AM
We could win this war, but it requires the ability to understand the nature of the enemy -- and what they are capable of. Our entire governmental structure is setup to protect us from large external conventional fights -- we are "protected" as we are intertwined economically with others -- this may work well with Europe, and China and other greedy capitalist systems-- but not so much from those who are fighting a "holy war" where 19 can cause great destruction from within. We are good at fighting with tanks and planes, but we are not well-suited to fight long wars of will because of traitors from within. If Christianity is just as threatening to you as radical Islam, (ie Rosie) then go ahead with your various distractions... talk about your "important issues' of cradle to grave government programs that will weaken us even more, open the border for an eventual vote, undermine the war effort for a vote in 2008!!! I mean those we fight respect compromise and nuance – it is working well in European countries that are incrementally being forced to submit to Allah.

Do you live in your mom's basement? ;D

Bronco Bob
08-24-2007, 11:30 AM
We could win this war, but it requires the ability to understand the nature of the enemy -- and what they are capable of. Our entire governmental structure is setup to protect us from large external conventional fights -- we are "protected" as we are intertwined economically with others -- this may work well with Europe, and China and other greedy capitalist systems-- but not so much from those who are fighting a "holy war" where 19 can cause great destruction from within. We are good at fighting with tanks and planes, but we are not well-suited to fight long wars of will because of traitors from within. If Christianity is just as threatening to you as radical Islam, (ie Rosie) then go ahead with your various distractions... talk about your "important issues' of cradle to grave government programs that will weaken us even more, open the border for an eventual vote, undermine the war effort for a vote in 2008!!! I mean those we fight respect compromise and nuance – it is working well in European countries that are incrementally being forced to submit to Allah.

That's why fighting terrorism really should be a police action rather than
a military option. Most every terrorist operation and plan in the world as a
whole has been broken up by the police, not the military.
Using the military to fight terrorist is like using a sledge hammer to kill a fly.
You'll usually miss and you'll instead end up breaking up a lot of stuff you
would rather didn't get broken.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-24-2007, 06:39 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/left-vietnam807.gif

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-24-2007, 06:41 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/day_vietnam.gif

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-24-2007, 06:45 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/shtay-the-course.jpg

Rohirrim
08-24-2007, 07:03 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/day_vietnam.gif

Hilarious!

Spider
08-24-2007, 07:31 PM
Bush fails in History. and you find this to be odd ? ......A shocker would be Bush doesnt fail

Bronco Bob
08-24-2007, 10:29 PM
Anyone watch Countdown on MSNBC tonight? They had the professor on
that Bush was quoting in regards to Japan and democracy after WW2.
The professor said Bush was full of crap, in so many words.
Some points he made:

1 An occupation plan for Japan was drawn up by the US in 1942.
2 Japan had already been a democracy before the Japanese militarists took over.
3 Japan is basically a monolithic culture, there are no major rival factions like there are in Iraq.
4 The Japanese government was basically left intact, from the Emperor
all the way down to the low level bureaucrats.
5 Likewise the Japanese army was left intact (so there weren't
a bunch of disgruntled soldiers wandering about causing trouble.)
6 Japan's transition was led by a charismatic US general, McArthur
7 Japan's democracy was restored within 3 years after the occupation.

Cito Pelon
08-24-2007, 11:07 PM
We could win this war, but it requires the ability to understand the nature of the enemy -- and what they are capable of. Our entire governmental structure is setup to protect us from large external conventional fights -- we are "protected" as we are intertwined economically with others -- this may work well with Europe, and China and other greedy capitalist systems-- but not so much from those who are fighting a "holy war" where 19 can cause great destruction from within. We are good at fighting with tanks and planes, but we are not well-suited to fight long wars of will because of traitors from within. If Christianity is just as threatening to you as radical Islam, (ie Rosie) then go ahead with your various distractions... talk about your "important issues' of cradle to grave government programs that will weaken us even more, open the border for an eventual vote, undermine the war effort for a vote in 2008!!! I mean those we fight respect compromise and nuance – it is working well in European countries that are incrementally being forced to submit to Allah.

Therefore, the course of action should be excellent police work, since the object is to eliminate small groups of people.

Spider
08-25-2007, 12:50 AM
We could win this war, but it requires the ability to understand the nature of the enemy -- and what they are capable of. Our entire governmental structure is setup to protect us from large external conventional fights -- we are "protected" as we are intertwined economically with others -- this may work well with Europe, and China and other greedy capitalist systems-- but not so much from those who are fighting a "holy war" where 19 can cause great destruction from within. We are good at fighting with tanks and planes, but we are not well-suited to fight long wars of will because of traitors from within. If Christianity is just as threatening to you as radical Islam, (ie Rosie) then go ahead with your various distractions... talk about your "important issues' of cradle to grave government programs that will weaken us even more, open the border for an eventual vote, undermine the war effort for a vote in 2008!!! I mean those we fight respect compromise and nuance – it is working well in European countries that are incrementally being forced to submit to Allah.
Bob this isnt our war , we was the powder keg that set it off , but here it is in a nut shell , we are protecting Sunni from Shiitte , kurds , we are protecting Kurds from Sunnu and shiitte , and we are protecting ****te from sunni and kurds , meanwhile they all want to kill us but the Kurds ......
the only way this can be won is through the Iraqis themselfs ...... or we do Genocide .......

Rohirrim
08-25-2007, 11:25 AM
Anyone watch Countdown on MSNBC tonight? They had the professor on
that Bush was quoting in regards to Japan and democracy after WW2.
The professor said Bush was full of crap, in so many words.
Some points he made:

1 An occupation plan for Japan was drawn up by the US in 1942.
2 Japan had already been a democracy before the Japanese militarists took over.
3 Japan is basically a monolithic culture, there are no major rival factions like there are in Iraq.
4 The Japanese government was basically left intact, from the Emperor
all the way down to the low level bureaucrats.
5 Likewise the Japanese army was left intact (so there weren't
a bunch of disgruntled soldiers wandering about causing trouble.)
6 Japan's transition was led by a charismatic US general, McArthur
7 Japan's democracy was restored within 3 years after the occupation.

You mean Bush was lying through his teeth? I'm shocked! Actually, given his performance in college, he probably believes the tripe he spews.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-27-2007, 07:51 PM
You mean Bush was lying through his teeth? I'm shocked! Actually, given his performance in college, he probably believes the tripe he spews.

http://www.bartcop.com/send-them-nam.jpg