Defensive scheme question???

[cmhargrove]

Ok. After watching SF and Dallas, the main problem I see is that our ends are doing their job of rushing around to create QB pressure (they are actually getting pretty close). The DT's are stuck at the line fighting three guys. Both teams have gashed us between the tackles and ends. My question, is this DJ's territory?(marked by the arrows) Is he supposed to make the read of right or left side and fly for the correct hole? I am just trying to understand why teams are going through our line uncontested into the secondary. I am not looking to rag, I just want to understand this "simple" scheme before next Saturday so I can watch it even more closely.

[Mediator12]

In short, there is no yes and no answer. It depends on the formation, personnel, down and distance cmhargrove. That is why these guys are really having problems as they are playing live action with a new toy for the first time. They are really slow at using it and missing the details on how to succeed from play to play.

[cmhargrove]

In short, there is no yes and no answer. It depends on the formation, personnel, down and distance cmhargrove. That is why these guys are really having problems as they are playing live action with a new toy for the first time. They are really slow at using it and missing the details on how to succeed from play to play.

I'm not looking to lay blame, it's just that over and over I heard this scheme as being "simple." I will have to admit that it looks like the "funnel" works. But I just have my eye on the spot we are getting gashed and I think about what LT and LJ will do running between our DT's and DE's. That scares me.

It also seems like we have completely given up the flats uncontested. Any time a WR or TE crosses the field in the same area, there is no one there to contest the play. I just don't understand if our LB's are leaving their position too early (instead of waiting for the play to develop), or if they are just way out of position. I know that Lynch and Champ were making way too many tackles the other night. The last thing we need is to beat Champ up.

Anyone have film on Bates scheme working well in GB or Miami? I just want to know what to look for when it is "working."

[Kaylore]

I'm no defensive expert, but I would think it might take a little bit of time to totally change schemes and to expect them to look great after three quarters of preseason football seems like a reach to me. Historically our run defense has looked like crap every preseason largely because the fronts we've used have always been the same. I know Bates doesn't change much, but in camp they did do a lot of stuff with mixing their fronts up, and that can make some problems for the blocking assignments.

I think everyone's concern is whether the problem is between the ears. If by the end of the season the linebackers are still guessing and second guessing, not wrapping up and giving up the short passes to the inside, then it's personnel that's the problem and not scheme.

[UboBronco]

I live only 20 minutes from Green Bay, and the year Bates joined the Packers all of the fans up here in Wisconsin were going nuts. It took until around the 6th game of the season for things to start really gelling for the defense. So it does take more time than one would want or think it should. The run defense was the last thing to come around. The Packers were giving up 2 or 3 big runs a game early on, then they started becoming very stingy, and the pass rush started to solidify also. So hold in there, I have faith it will come around. But I believe it will be the offense that holds us in during the early part of the season.

[Kaylore]

I live only 20 minutes from Green Bay, and the year Bates joined the Packers all of the fans up here in Wisconsin were going nuts. It took until around the 6th game of the season for things to start really gelling for the defense. So it does take more time than one would want or think it should. The run defense was the last thing to come around. The Packers were giving up 2 or 3 big runs a game early on, then they started becoming very stingy, and the pass rush started to solidify also. So hold in there, I have faith it will come around. But I believe it will be the offense that holds us in during the early part of the season.

Why did they fire him? Was it part of the Sherman purging?

[jmz313]

4th and 24 to freddie mitchell. Right? He got the blame.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I live only 20 minutes from Green Bay, and the year Bates joined the Packers all of the fans up here in Wisconsin were going nuts. It took until around the 6th game of the season for things to start really gelling for the defense. So it does take more time than one would want or think it should. The run defense was the last thing to come around. The Packers were giving up 2 or 3 big runs a game early on, then they started becoming very stingy, and the pass rush started to solidify also. So hold in there, I have faith it will come around. But I believe it will be the offense that holds us in during the early part of the season.
Maybe you can comment on that run defense...it finished poorly...something like 23rd or so...are you saying that's because they stunk early on and had to make up a lot of territory? If so that gives me a bit more hope for this experiment because people have so far ignored the fact that Bate's D in GB was statistically good against the pass and not so good vs. the run.

[Mediator12]

4th and 24 to freddie mitchell. Right? He got the blame.

Nope, that was Ed Donatell. He was the DC right before Slowik and Slowik left when Bates took over in 2005 for him. That must be an interesting dynamic right now. Bates has superseded Slowik in his last two jobs :rofl:

[UboBronco]

They did not "fire" him. When Sherman left, he was interviewed for the head job, and all of the players were pulling for him to get the job. When they decided to hire McCarthy, they tried like heck to keep him as associate head coach of the defense, but Bates felt betrayed, and stated he could not work in that capacity because he felt that he was told the position was going to be his. With Ted Thompson here in Green Bay, it seems that the fans and players have trouble understanding his way of business.

[Mediator12]

Maybe you can comment on that run defense...it finished poorly...something like 23rd or so...are you saying that's because they stunk early on and had to make up a lot of territory? If so that gives me a bit more hope for this experiment because people have so far ignored the fact that Bate's D in GB was statistically good against the pass and not so good vs. the run.

It was the same way in MIA and DAL too. It has had success against the run, MIA 2003 is the most recent, but it definitely is not solid per se from year to year. The days of DEN being in the top 10 in run defense every year are pretty much over. You just want them to stay in the top half and not the bottom 10.

[bpc]

I live only 20 minutes from Green Bay, and the year Bates joined the Packers all of the fans up here in Wisconsin were going nuts. It took until around the 6th game of the season for things to start really gelling for the defense. So it does take more time than one would want or think it should. The run defense was the last thing to come around. The Packers were giving up 2 or 3 big runs a game early on, then they started becoming very stingy, and the pass rush started to solidify also. So hold in there, I have faith it will come around. But I believe it will be the offense that holds us in during the early part of the season.

Great info, thank you!

Shoot, if we wait until week 6 to gel, we are going to be sitting at 2-4 with Jacksonville, Indy, SD, and Pittsburgh all coming up in games 3-6. All those teams can run the football and the HB's have big play potential.

[UboBronco]

Maybe you can comment on that run defense...it finished poorly...something like 23rd or so...are you saying that's because they stunk early on and had to make up a lot of territory? If so that gives me a bit more hope for this experiment because people have so far ignored the fact that Bate's D in GB was statistically good against the pass and not so good vs. the run.

A very good assesment of Green Bays system. They were gashed early, and really came on strong late. Also, the stats are slightly skewd from that year because the Packers were so far behind in games early on, which increased the rushes, and decreased the pass attempts. Our DB's are so vastly better than what they had here, I am sure Bates will work to get the run problem fixed even faster. The Packers that year were great on 4 of 5 runs, but that 5th run went for 10+ yards consistently. With several over 50 early in the season. Made my wife (an avid Packer Fan) go crazy.<!-- / message -->

[cmhargrove]

It seemed that in previous years, we forced teams to run towards the outside where our speedy linebackers could run them down, where this year they are running right to the outside of our DT's. I just expect someone to be in that spot and they aren't.

Oh well, no need to beat a dead horse here. I just want to know what to look for this Saturday to see if we are "fixing" the main problems.

[Mediator12]

DEN's Defensive schedule has very few strong passing teams and a ton of power or strong running teams. I said it two months ago, this defense will improve tremendously versus the pass and sacrifice a lot versus the run. Historically and scheme wise, this has been the trend with this defense going all the way back to DAL in the mid 90's.

I just hope the OL comes around and allows DEN to play with a lead instead of trying to come from behind. This team is NOT designed to come from behind and teams will run for 150+ a game if they have significant halftime leads. The offense also needs to be able to play action and screen in order to run the ball and being behind makes that all but impossible.

[Beantown Bronco]

Ideally of course, I'd like a great defense all year long.....but I would definitely prefer to give up a slow start, with the benefit of having a very strong second half defense over what we've dealt with here the last few years: record setting first 8 games, then bad to miserable for the last 8 games and playoffs.

[Drek]

They did not "fire" him. When Sherman left, he was interviewed for the head job, and all of the players were pulling for him to get the job. When they decided to hire McCarthy, they tried like heck to keep him as associate head coach of the defense, but Bates felt betrayed, and stated he could not work in that capacity because he felt that he was told the position was going to be his. With Ted Thompson here in Green Bay, it seems that the fans and players have trouble understanding his way of business.
To further illuminate on this, it came right after his tenure in Miami where he filled in as HC for 7 games after Wannstedt stepped down. He went 3-4, including a win over New England, but then Miami went out and got Saban without even giving Bates a legitimate shot at the job.

After he was denied a shot to be an HC with the Packers he hung it up for a year, not hard to understand why. Guys work their whole careers to become head coaches, Bates did everything to earn the job for two organizations two years running, both times they turned to less proven choices without even giving him a legitimate shot.

[bpc]

I don't have a question about Bates. From everything i've read and heard, he seems to be the right guy for the job. We just need to get our players, playing to his level of expectations which has been tough to do.

When you look at the factors going into this season, 5 or 6 new DL members this preseason, loss of Al Wilson, DJ Williams shifting positions AGAIN, and a DC first year with his system, its going to take some time. We just have to be patient.