Broncos' first-team "D" gets grade of "F"

[dragondawg]

Irving, Texas - In the midst of a workout with the Dallas Cowboys on Thursday morning, new Broncos defensive boss Jim Bates was testy.

After spending the first two-plus weeks of his first training camp positively reinforcing instructions to his new charges, Bates took the gloves off. In a salty tone, Bates complained about the poor leverage the team was using in tackling.

The Broncos defense shouldn't expect a kinder gentler Bates this week. Not after Saturday night.

The Broncos' first-team defense is playing without tackle Gerard Warren, who is on the trading block, and lost left end Ebenezer Ekuban to an Achilles injury Saturday night. The unit struggled in a thorough 31-20 whipping at the hands of
the Cowboys on a hot, steamy night.

The defense wasn't alone. The Denver offense and special teams weren't clicking, either.

But what is a concern for the Broncos is that this was the second subpar effort by the first-team defense in five days. In a 17-13 Denver win at San Francisco on Monday night, the 49ers ran all over the Broncos, taking advantage of major holes.

Saturday night, Denver had issues defending the run and the pass.

Coach Mike Shanahan had said the unit would play 20-25 plays against the Cowboys. The first-teamers were actually on the field for 39 plays - and the Cowboys dominated on most of them.

Dallas ran 20 plays in the first quarter and added another 19 in the second. Denver's defense was on the field 17 minutes, 11 seconds in the first half.

"We kept the first team in there a little longer to try to get cohesive," Shanahan said.

The unit will get another chance to play extensively Saturday night against Cleveland at Invesco Field at Mile High. Traditionally, Shanahan has both the first-string offense and defense play into the third quarter of the third preseason game.

Simply for confidence's sake, the Broncos' defense must improve against the Browns. Exactly three weeks away from the start of the regular season at Buffalo, there are no major concerns, but the team clearly hasn't jelled in its new system.

"We're concerned because it has to get better," said safety John Lynch, one of the few Broncos defenders to have a good game. "We have to get better."

With the preseason halfway completed, the two biggest concerns about the defense are points allowed and third-down efficiency.

The first-string defense allowed 10 points in two series against the 49ers and another 24 against Dallas. Dallas converted on six-of-eight third downs in the first half.

"We were playing very basic but we have to improve," cornerback Champ Bailey said. "That's not acceptable."

On the bright side, the first-string defense had two turnovers, an interception by new right cornerback Dré Bly and a fumble recovery by safety Nick Ferguson. The Broncos converted the turnovers into two Jason Elam field goals.

Yet, those two plays likely won't stop another week of tongue-lashing by Bates.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_6660984

[dsmoot]

They need a tongue lashing. It isn't a matter that the defense is playing a new scheme, or a vanilla version of it, or they have a new MLB or SLB. The defense is simply getting kicked around, not executing or getting the job done man to man. 3rd down was a nightmare.

The OL is suffering in the same way. Outside of Hamilton, everyone who is a potential starter played last night. Cutler was hurried. There were breakdowns in the run and passing game. Outside of Hamilton, Nalen, Meadows and Lepsis there is not alot of experience there. I don't know how much Meadows has left. How bad is Hamilton's concussion. He has missed some significant time with it.

I don't want to panic but we will see how they play next Saturday. If they are playing the Browns, they should show us the ability to control the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. If they struggle next week, I think the panic mode will justifiably kick in.

[baja]

Willams is a bust at MLB so far.

Dallas receivers could not have been more open than if the D stayed on the bus.

Not Good.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Willams is a bust at MLB so far.

Dallas receivers could not have been more open than if the D stayed on the bus.

Not Good.
Pfffftt...he's played the equivilent less than one entire game...the ONLY game he's ever played at MLB. You were expecting...what?...Randy Gradshar?

He's demonstrated he can make plays when he's allowed to roam free in his rookie year. It's WAY to early to panic on him at this point.

[baja]

That's why I said "so far" as in not yet for you Texans.

[TotallyScrewed]

Things seemed a lot rosier in TC. On ther other hand we got to see Cutler to Marshall.

[bigpeewee]

Things seemed a lot rosier in TC. On ther other hand we got to see Cutler to Marshall.

A rare occurance this season... Mark my words

[azbroncfan]

Willams is a bust at MLB so far.

Dallas receivers could not have been more open than if the D stayed on the bus.

Not Good.

MLB? He has sucked every position he has played except WLB.

[Kaylore]

An "F" is pretty harsh. Lynch, Bly, Bailey and Marcus Thomas played well. Bly was having a great game. To me an "F" suggests everyone sucked across the board and that's just not true.

[Greybeard]

MLB? He has sucked every position he has played except WLB.
Ummm . . . well, D.J. actually has played only two positions: WILL and SAM. He
kicked butt at WILL and certainly was better at there than at SAM, but I
wouldn't say he "sucked" at the latter.

Regardng MLB, he has played all of two whole games his entire life at that
position. That would not be long enough to attach the "suck" category to him,
would it?

-----

[baja]

Ummm . . . well, D.J. actually has played only two positions: WILL and SAM. He
kicked butt at WILL and certainly was better at there than at SAM, but I
wouldn't say he "sucked" at the latter.

Regardng MLB, he has played all of two whole games his entire life at that
position. That would not be long enough to attach the "suck" category to him,
would it?

-----

Well that's why we said so far. Last night you could have set up a lemonade stand in the middle and never had a glass spilled.

[Greybeard]

An "F" is pretty harsh. Lynch, Bly, Bailey and Marcus Thomas played well. Bly was having a great game. To me an "F" suggests everyone sucked across the board and that's just not true.
And Webster did well, and Gold in spots, I understand. (I didn't get to see the
game.) That's seven out of eleven.

Still, something really stunk out there. Bottom line is, they ran through the
Broncos for the second straight game, which begs the question: What's up?

-----

[azbroncfan]

Ummm . . . well, D.J. actually has played only two positions: WILL and SAM. He
kicked butt at WILL and certainly was better at there than at SAM, but I
wouldn't say he "sucked" at the latter.

Regardng MLB, he has played all of two whole games his entire life at that
position. That would not be long enough to attach the "suck" category to him,
would it?

-----

How many plays did he make at the SLB? I know you are going to say SLB's don't make as many plays as WLB but look at how many plays Romo made. DJ was very average and was great at over running plays the past few years.

[Greybeard]

How many plays did he make at the SLB? I know you are going to say SLB's don't make as many plays as WLB but look at how many plays Romo made. DJ was very average and was great at over running plays the past few years.
This is a long-standing debate. All I know off the top is that D.J. was 1/3 of
what was considered one of the top LB corps in the league when he, Wilson,
and Gold were together. If D.J. "sucked," then I would hardly think they would
have enjoyed that distinction.

Regarding his being "average," (1) I would not think "sucked" would have
amounted to "average," and (2) what is "average"? Have you ever formulated
such a scale?

However, I wouldn't think any of that would matter a whole lot right now. The
question is, how good will he be at MLB? That, we don't know right now. And
how well he did or did not do at another position is not a good gauge in that
regard.

-----

[SoCalBronco]

How many plays did he make at the SLB? I know you are going to say SLB's don't make as many plays as WLB but look at how many plays Romo made. DJ was very average and was great at over running plays the past few years.

It's kind of hard to be ranked 9th out of 64 starting OLBs while sucking at the same time.

[Greybeard]

It's kind of hard to be ranked 9th out of 64 starting OLBs while sucking at the same time.
I don't know where "average" would be in there, but that superficially seems
superior to that mark . . . to me, anyway.

[Rock Chalk]

Ummm . . . well, D.J. actually has played only two positions: WILL and SAM. He
kicked butt at WILL and certainly was better at there than at SAM, but I
wouldn't say he "sucked" at the latter.

Regardng MLB, he has played all of two whole games his entire life at that
position. That would not be long enough to attach the "suck" category to him,
would it?

-----

Actually, because he has only played 2 whole games his entire life at MLB he is full of suck at the position. He might get better but right now he is teh suck.

So, at this point in his career, DJ has sucked at every position except Will.

[Rock Chalk]

It's kind of hard to be ranked 9th out of 64 starting OLBs while sucking at the same time.

And these rankings were compiled by who? The U fans?

You are so full of homerism concerning DJ I dont trust anything you say on the matter.

Outside of his natural position at Will, DJ has vastly underperformed to his potential. VASTLY. Now, we move him to a position that requires a whole lot of mean and DJ Isnt that guy and never will be.

Face it, DJ is a Will Linebacker. He's not a Sam, he's not a Mike. SO we have two will linebackers playing at one time, both about the same amount of good at the position (I consider Gold = to DJ as a Will). We have no Mike, but Nate seems to be a decent Sam.

So we have no QB for our defense.

Quick poll: Who saw this coming when everyone was bitching about how bad "Al sucked" last year? Yeah, **** all y'all. I'll say it again, a sucky Al Wilson is ten times the MLB that DJ will EVER be.

[SoCalBronco]

And these rankings were compiled by who? The U fans?

You are so full of homerism concerning DJ I dont trust anything you say on the matter.

Outside of his natural position at Will, DJ has vastly underperformed to his potential. VASTLY. Now, we move him to a position that requires a whole lot of mean and DJ Isnt that guy and never will be.

Face it, DJ is a Will Linebacker. He's not a Sam, he's not a Mike. SO we have two will linebackers playing at one time, both about the same amount of good at the position (I consider Gold = to DJ as a Will). We have no Mike, but Nate seems to be a decent Sam.

So we have no QB for our defense.

Quick poll: Who saw this coming when everyone was b****ing about how bad "Al sucked" last year? Yeah, **** all y'all. I'll say it again, a sucky Al Wilson is ten times the MLB that DJ will EVER be.

No, Alec, those ratings were compiled by Pro Football Weekly's scouting staff in their "Preview 2007" print edition from July I believe, where they listed rankings position by position and that was based on his play last year at Sam, mind you. Whether I am a fan of his or not doesnt change that they said that. You don't have to believe me, Alec, thats fine. Don't trust anything I say on the matter, that is fine.

Just don't get upset when you get repeatedly called out when the winds change on this issue. Don't say "oh, i was talking about then, he sucked at that point which is all i was saying". As he gells into his role and becomes a force, you are going to hear about it...early and often.

[Rock Chalk]

Mark my words SoCal

DJ will NEVER be a force a MLB.

[SoCalBronco]

Mark my words SoCal

DJ will NEVER be a force a MLB.

We shall see soon enough...one way or the other.

[Rock Chalk]

We shall see soon enough...one way or the other.

For the team's sake I hope you are right and I am wrong but realistically, I dont see it happening.

[azbroncfan]

And these rankings were compiled by who? The U fans?

You are so full of homerism concerning DJ I dont trust anything you say on the matter.

Outside of his natural position at Will, DJ has vastly underperformed to his potential. VASTLY. Now, we move him to a position that requires a whole lot of mean and DJ Isnt that guy and never will be.

Face it, DJ is a Will Linebacker. He's not a Sam, he's not a Mike. SO we have two will linebackers playing at one time, both about the same amount of good at the position (I consider Gold = to DJ as a Will). We have no Mike, but Nate seems to be a decent Sam.

So we have no QB for our defense.

Quick poll: Who saw this coming when everyone was b****ing about how bad "Al sucked" last year? Yeah, **** all y'all. I'll say it again, a sucky Al Wilson is ten times the MLB that DJ will EVER be.

Quoted for the truth. It's just too bad Denver should of taken the best RB coming out of college instead of an average LB in DJ.

[azbroncfan]

This is a long-standing debate. All I know off the top is that D.J. was 1/3 of
what was considered one of the top LB corps in the league when he, Wilson,
and Gold were together. If D.J. "sucked," then I would hardly think they would
have enjoyed that distinction.

Regarding his being "average," (1) I would not think "sucked" would have
amounted to "average," and (2) what is "average"? Have you ever formulated
such a scale?

However, I wouldn't think any of that would matter a whole lot right now. The
question is, how good will he be at MLB? That, we don't know right now. And
how well he did or did not do at another position is not a good gauge in that
regard.

-----


As far as Denver's LB's being considered the Best in the league that was Koolaide that you drank. How many sacks and INT's did they have overall as a unit the past 2 years. Find me a unit of all the teams that had less combined. They were the most overrated due to the fact that they probably had the fastest 40 times. Good to great LB's make plays. DJ does not make plays.

[Greybeard]

As far as Denver's LB's being considered the Best in the league that was Koolaide that you drank. How many sacks and INT's did they have overall as a unit the past 2 years. Find me a unit of all the teams that had less combined. They were the most overrated due to the fact that they probably had the fastest 40 times. Good to great LB's make plays. DJ does not make plays.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned the LB corps being the
best. I said it was widely considered among the best.

If you don't know that they were considered such, then you must have been
wandering around in the Arizona desert with the sun frying your brain the last
two or three years. If they were "overrated," then they must have been
vaunted. How else would they be "overrated"? You need to make more sense
in your posts.

Moreover, I get the impression you like only to write posts, not to read them.
Otherwise, I don't know how you could have missed the one that mentioned
D.J.'s being ranked #9 out of 64 OLBs.

I mentioned in a rep message I gave another poster that the ones who
document their arguments are the ones who know what they are talking
about. I haven't noticed much documentation from you.

-----

[BroncoInferno]

Eh, I'm not concerned yet. Eventual Super Bowl champions have looked bad in preseason and not won a game. I'll be mildly concerned if they still look bbad in the "big" preseason game (the one where starters play three quarters).

[Greybeard]

Actually, because he has only played 2 whole games his entire life at MLB he is full of suck at the position. He might get better but right now he is teh suck.

So, at this point in his career, DJ has sucked at every position except Will.
What are you doing, copying and pasting other posts? Someone else already
said that in another post in this thread. And I responded: Post #13.

-----

[cutthemdown]

I'm thnking we may be pretty avergage this year from what I'm seeing. If it was just guys in wrong spot I wouldn't worry so much, but in reality they are being pushed around and played with.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I'm watching the game now and it seems that what killed us most is missed assignments and a vanilla defensive game plan. I'm actually less worried about it now than i was after reading the thousands of kill bates rants. The way everyone was making it sound was that it was just first down after first down. We were victimized on third down a few times, but their bigger plays were due to miss assignments....its a new D..hopefully they'll work that out

[Northman]

I'm watching the game now and it seems that what killed us most is missed assignments and a vanilla defensive game plan. I'm actually less worried about it now than i was after reading the thousands of kill bates rants. The way everyone was making it sound was that it was just first down after first down. We were victimized on third down a few times, but their bigger plays were due to miss assignments....its a new D..hopefully they'll work that out

I agree. Also its not like Dallas is a pushover team. Dallas will most likely make a big run for the title this year.

[azbroncfan]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned the LB corps being the
best. I said it was widely considered among the best.

If you don't know that they were considered such, then you must have been
wandering around in the Arizona desert with the sun frying your brain the last
two or three years. If they were "overrated," then they must have been
vaunted. How else would they be "overrated"? You need to make more sense
in your posts.

Moreover, I get the impression you like only to write posts, not to read them.
Otherwise, I don't know how you could have missed the one that mentioned
D.J.'s being ranked #9 out of 64 OLBs.

I mentioned in a rep message I gave another poster that the ones who
document their arguments are the ones who know what they are talking
about. I haven't noticed much documentation from you.

-----

They were the most overrated LB's in the league. Has been argued and agreed with a lot here but as a newbie you wouldn't of seen it. Again I will ask you How many Sacks and Int's have the Broncos had with Wilson, Gold and DJ playing the positions the last 2 years? Name a team with fewer INT's and Sacks out of the LB postion. When was the last time a Denver LB got an INT? Tell me if all those add up to the "Widely considered the best LB's in the league." You only say that if you watch only ESPN and don't watch the games.

[Rock Chalk]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned the LB corps being the
best. I said it was widely considered among the best.

If you don't know that they were considered such, then you must have been
wandering around in the Arizona desert with the sun frying your brain the last
two or three years. If they were "overrated," then they must have been
vaunted. How else would they be "overrated"? You need to make more sense
in your posts.

Moreover, I get the impression you like only to write posts, not to read them.
Otherwise, I don't know how you could have missed the one that mentioned
D.J.'s being ranked #9 out of 64 OLBs.

I mentioned in a rep message I gave another poster that the ones who
document their arguments are the ones who know what they are talking
about. I haven't noticed much documentation from you.

-----

SoCal was the one that pulled the 9 out of 64. HIs documentation as you call it is from profootballweekly. Statisticians, not football watching people. These people take stats, and bend them to whatever they want. These are the same people that say Nick Ferguson is a better safety than Ed Reed.

So just because someone on the internet "documents" their backings, doesnt make them right because those they are quoting aren't necessarily right. You are long on words, short on credibility. Our LB corps in previous years were a vaunted LB corps, but they also had Al ****ing Wilson manning the Middle. THATS why they were a good LB corps. It wasnt because of DJ "WHat the **** do I do" Williams or Ian "Mighty Mouse" Gold.

[SoCalBronco]

SoCal was the one that pulled the 9 out of 64. HIs documentation as you call it is from profootballweekly. Statisticians, not football watching people. These people take stats, and bend them to whatever they want. These are the same people that say Nick Ferguson is a better safety than Ed Reed.

So just because someone on the internet "documents" their backings, doesnt make them right because those they are quoting aren't necessarily right. You are long on words, short on credibility. Our LB corps in previous years were a vaunted LB corps, but they also had Al ****ing Wilson manning the Middle. THATS why they were a good LB corps. It wasnt because of DJ "WHat the **** do I do" Williams or Ian "Mighty Mouse" Gold.

I highly doubt their rankings were based on stats, Alec, because he did not have any special stats last year. PFW is not Football Outsiders. FO are the yavoon stats guys.

[cmhargrove]

They were the most overrated LB's in the league. Has been argued and agreed with a lot here but as a newbie you wouldn't of seen it. Again I will ask you How many Sacks and Int's have the Broncos had with Wilson, Gold and DJ playing the positions the last 2 years? Name a team with fewer INT's and Sacks out of the LB postion. When was the last time a Denver LB got an INT? Tell me if all those add up to the "Widely considered the best LB's in the league." You only say that if you watch only ESPN and don't watch the games.

INT's and sacks are only a part of the picture. Good linebackers help teams win games. Our linebackers have been very good at helping us win games the last couple of years. Another way too look at it - they have not been our "weak point."

I was at the game last night and I was embarassed, but I am not jumping ship yet. Our guys are too talented to suck this bad. DJ may never be Al, but I wonder in some cases if he is thinking too much, rather than watching the play and being in the right place (just playing football). And, i would like to see him jack at least one player up in Cleveland. Most of his tackles have been the falling, grabbing type without much power.

Last night sucked, but I think we can pull through. Hopefully, Bates can adapt his system to our players, because they looked better "so far" playing Coyer's plan.

My main beef with this defense is that Bate's system is supposed to generate a big pass rush - where is it? I know Moss got a gimme sack last night when the QB tripped, but we aren't generating a pass rush against first team offenses.

[Rock Chalk]

I highly doubt their rankings were based on stats, Alec, because he did not have any special stats last year. PFW is not Football Outsiders. FO are the yavoon stats guys.

My bad SoCal, I did get FO and PFW mixed up.

Point is, what makes PFWs rankings legitimate? Or FO or any other place?

I didnt see DJ Williams as the 9th best OLB in the league last year, period. Last year was not a banner year for our LBs though Al Wilson still led the team in that regard.

[24champ]

SoCal was the one that pulled the 9 out of 64. HIs documentation as you call it is from profootballweekly. Statisticians, not football watching people. These people take stats, and bend them to whatever they want. These are the same people that say Nick Ferguson is a better safety than Ed Reed.

So just because someone on the internet "documents" their backings, doesnt make them right because those they are quoting aren't necessarily right. You are long on words, short on credibility. Our LB corps in previous years were a vaunted LB corps, but they also had Al ****ing Wilson manning the Middle. THATS why they were a good LB corps. It wasnt because of DJ "WHat the **** do I do" Williams or Ian "Mighty Mouse" Gold.

What a cop-out, you can't find anything that supports your haterade on DJ, eh Alec?

[ZONA]

Pfffftt...he's played the equivilent less than one entire game...the ONLY game he's ever played at MLB. You were expecting...what?...Randy Gradshar?

He's demonstrated he can make plays when he's allowed to roam free in his rookie year. It's WAY to early to panic on him at this point.

No $****. I love how everybody is already pissing their pants when many of the starters have not even played a whole game yet. My god people, can we at least start playing some games that matter before people start bouncing off the walls?

[Greybeard]

They were the most overrated LB's in the league. Has been argued and agreed with a lot here but as a newbie you wouldn't of seen it. Again I will ask you How many Sacks and Int's have the Broncos had with Wilson, Gold and DJ playing the positions the last 2 years? Name a team with fewer INT's and Sacks out of the LB postion. When was the last time a Denver LB got an INT? Tell me if all those add up to the "Widely considered the best LB's in the league." You only say that if you watch only ESPN and don't watch the games.
I am far and away the points leader (well, along with AZ Snake Fan) at
Broncomania. If an issue was debated at length here, then you can be sure it
was debated at length there. So I would have seen it, just elsewhere.

BTW, I am not entirely a "newbie" here, despite my post count. Take a look at
my join date.

Now, you are the one who has been saying D.J. "sucks," so the onus of
documentation is on you. What adds up to a LB corps being "widely considered
one of the best groups in the league" (see, again you are
distorting my words) is that they are widely considered one of
the best LB groups in the league. I should not have to document that.
It is common, very common, knowledge.

-----

[Rock Chalk]

What a cop-out, you can't find anything that supports your haterade on DJ, eh Alec?

I just watched the first half champ, and everything about that first half supports my haterade on DJ.

Watch it, look for DJ< he's number 55. You will find him woefully missing on running plays up the middle right where he should be. You will find him falling on his face, you will find him getting bulled over by RBs and you will find him being made a fool of by Barber in the red zone.

[Rock Chalk]

And for the record you little twit, I dont hate DJ. He's just not an MLB.

He is a WEAKSIDE LINEBACKER. Thats all he will EVER be good at.

[Greybeard]

And for the record you little twit, I dont hate DJ. He's just not an MLB.

He is a WEAKSIDE LINEBACKER. Thats all he will EVER be good at.
You know, I suggest you find Shanny's and Bates' phone numbers and/or emails
and take that up with them. They are the ones who seem to think D.J. will make
a good MLB. Go ahead . . . call them and tell them you know more than they do
about it.

Do me a favor, would you? Let me know what their reaction was. ;)

-----

[Rock Chalk]

You know, I suggest you find Shanny's and Bates' phone numbers and/or emails
and take that up with them. They are the ones who seem to think D.J. will make
a good MLB. Go ahead . . . call them and tell them you know more than they do
about it.

Do me a favor, would you? Let me know what their reaction was. ;)

-----

Yeah, Shanahan and Bates know everything.

Shanahan has signed, Daryl Gardner, Marcus Nash, Courtney Brown, Gerrard Warren, Trevor Pryce, need I go on? Act like just because someone criticizes the move that they think they are smarter than the coaches.

Hey, newsflash, the coaches aren't always right. It was NOT the right move moving DJ over to SLB from WLB, dont believe me? Ask SoCal, the biggest DJ nutswinger in the universe. It was NOT the right move putting Pryce on DE from DT where he was an all pro. There have been a lot of screw ups in the Shanahan era in regards to moving players and DJ to MLB is just another one of the screw ups.

[BroncoInferno]

My biggest concern is the rash of injuries, not how we played in the second preseason game utilizing a new scheme. We'll be fine if we can get healthy. Fortunately, so far only one of the injuries has been a season ender, so maybe we are getting are nicks out of the way at the right time.

[Greybeard]

Yeah, Shanahan and Bates know everything.

Shanahan has signed, Daryl Gardner, Marcus Nash, Courtney Brown, Gerrard Warren, Trevor Pryce, need I go on? Act like just because someone criticizes the move that they think they are smarter than the coaches.

Hey, newsflash, the coaches aren't always right. It was NOT the right move moving DJ over to SLB from WLB, dont believe me? Ask SoCal, the biggest DJ nutswinger in the universe. It was NOT the right move putting Pryce on DE from DT where he was an all pro. There have been a lot of screw ups in the Shanahan era in regards to moving players and DJ to MLB is just another one of the screw ups.
So ummm . . . whom have you signed, BTW? :welcome:

-----

[Rock Chalk]

So ummm . . . whom have you signed, BTW? :welcome:

-----
I dont understand what you are saying?

Are you saying because I havent signed anyone
or that I am not a member of the coaching staff
that I cannot have an opinion on their moves?

That's moronic to say on a Broncos football discussion
board don't you think? Of course, most everything you
have written with your 150 or so posts has been moronic.

[broncofan2438]

I just got sone watching the first half on NFL Net, it is just embarrassing. We look like crap

[24champ]

Yeah, Shanahan and Bates know everything.

Shanahan has signed, Daryl Gardner, Marcus Nash, Courtney Brown, Gerrard Warren, Trevor Pryce, need I go on? Act like just because someone criticizes the move that they think they are smarter than the coaches.

Hey, newsflash, the coaches aren't always right. It was NOT the right move moving DJ over to SLB from WLB, dont believe me? Ask SoCal, the biggest DJ nutswinger in the universe. It was NOT the right move putting Pryce on DE from DT where he was an all pro. There have been a lot of screw ups in the Shanahan era in regards to moving players and DJ to MLB is just another one of the screw ups.

True but I don't see you arguing against Bates track record...

[Rock Chalk]

True but I don't see you arguing against Bates track record...

Its the preseason!

If Bates track record holds true to form, we are going to improve in pass defense but we are going to get worse in run defense which is absolutely horrible considering our division.

[Greybeard]

I dont understand what you are saying?

Are you saying because I havent signed anyone
or that I am not a member of the coaching staff
that I cannot have an opinion on their moves?

That's moronic to say on a Broncos football discussion
board don't you think? Of course, most everything you
have written with your 150 or so posts has been moronic.
I guess you'll just have to raise your comprehension level before I make sense to you.

I can wait . . . ;)


-----

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I am far and away the points leader (well, along with AZ Snake Fan) at
Broncomania. If an issue was debated at length here, then you can be sure it
was debated at length there. So I would have seen it, just elsewhere.

BTW, I am not entirely a "newbie" here, despite my post count. Take a look at
my join date.

Now, you are the one who has been saying D.J. "sucks," so the onus of
documentation is on you. What adds up to a LB corps being "widely considered
one of the best groups in the league" (see, again you are
distorting my words) is that they are widely considered one of
the best LB groups in the league. I should not have to document that.
It is common, very common, knowledge.

-----Oh no, another noobie who found out how to make some words bigger than others. You convinced me man, we have the best LBs in the league!!!!!!

[24champ]

Its the preseason!


No **** sherlock.



If Bates track record holds true to form, we are going to improve in pass defense but we are going to get worse in run defense which is absolutely horrible considering our division.

I don't know how our run defense can be worse than the end of last year. I happen think things can only get better with the run defense.

[Watchthemiddle]

"We were playing very basic but we have to improve," cornerback Champ Bailey said. "That's not acceptable."

They are still just running a base defense. Has anyone seen any stunts or blitzes by anyone yet?

Once we start game planning against the opposing offense and put in a defensive package and then get pushed around in a game that matters, then I will worry.

Champ is correct, they do still need to improve but its still a very basic defense at this point.

Everyone chill out. If I remember correctly, our defense STUNK last preseason also.

[jayman_37]

Does the peformances by our Defense make anyone worry about our O because if I remember correctly the O struggled mightily against our D and I think as of right now we are the only Offense to struggle against the Defense.

[Watchthemiddle]

Does the peformances by our Defense make anyone worry about our O because if I remember correctly the O struggled mightily against our D and I think as of right now we are the only Offense to struggle against the Defense.

Well so far, our offense hasn't done anything to help out the D. Too many 3 and outs yesterday and not enough points. 6 points in the first half and only 78 or so total yards doesn't help any defense out.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

"We were playing very basic but we have to improve," cornerback Champ Bailey said. "That's not acceptable."

They are still just running a base defense. Has anyone seen any stunts or blitzes by anyone yet?

Once we start game planning against the opposing offense and put in a defensive package and then get pushed around in a game that matters, then I will worry.

Champ is correct, they do still need to improve but its still a very basic defense at this point.

Everyone chill out. If I remember correctly, our defense STUNK last preseason also.We had Al Wilson last year. Our D line and LBs are weak to say the least. Our LBing core looks to be only a shell of itself from last year.

[Greybeard]

Does the peformances by our Defense make anyone worry about our O because if I remember correctly the O struggled mightily against our D and I think as of right now we are the only Offense to struggle against the Defense.
Hmmm . . . that could get one worried about the offense and the defense, couldn't it? hmmm...

-----

[NASurfer]

For what it's worth I thought Denver did have an extremely solid LB corps the last few years. When you consider the amount of journeymen we've had on the defensive line the last few years, for those guys to consistently achieve top 5/10 rankings and to be as strong as they were against the run is amazing.

It's hard to really take sacks into account when Coyer
- rarely blitzed in 2006
- sent the house including DBs way too frequently in 2005. QBs just checked to their hot routes because we were an easy defense to read.

I am concerned about the LBs this year because IT HAS TO BE a step back. Al Wilson was the man and did not deserve some of the bashing he got. DJ may grow but Al just set the bar so high you know? And while Webster seems to play well, he has that injury history.

With all the new faces this year, hell even guys who were rocks on this D in the past may show up as a potential weakness (DJ Williams)... I'm holding my breath with these guys.

[Greybeard]

For what it's worth I thought Denver did have an extremely solid LB corps the last few years. When you consider the amount of journeymen we've had on the defensive line the last few years, for those guys to consistently achieve top 5/10 rankings and to be as strong as they were against the run is amazing.

It's hard to really take sacks into account when Coyer
- rarely blitzed in 2006
- sent the house including DBs way too frequently in 2005. QBs just checked to their hot routes because we were an easy defense to read.

I am concerned about the LBs this year because IT HAS TO BE a step back. Al Wilson was the man and did not deserve some of the bashing he got. DJ may grow but Al just set the bar so high you know? And while Webster seems to play well, he has that injury history.

With all the new faces this year, hell even guys who were rocks on this D in the past may show up as a potential weakness (DJ Williams)... I'm holding my breath with these guys.
1. Yes on what you said the Broncos had then.

2. Yes on what you said the Broncos have now.

You obviously did a better job than I. Maybe you explained what I was trying
to say, in a way that can be understood.

[Bob]

And these rankings were compiled by who? The U fans?

You are so full of homerism concerning DJ I dont trust anything you say on the matter.

Outside of his natural position at Will, DJ has vastly underperformed to his potential. VASTLY. Now, we move him to a position that requires a whole lot of mean and DJ Isnt that guy and never will be.

Face it, DJ is a Will Linebacker. He's not a Sam, he's not a Mike. SO we have two will linebackers playing at one time, both about the same amount of good at the position (I consider Gold = to DJ as a Will). We have no Mike, but Nate seems to be a decent Sam.

So we have no QB for our defense.

Quick poll: Who saw this coming when everyone was b****ing about how bad "Al sucked" last year? Yeah, **** all y'all. I'll say it again, a sucky Al Wilson is ten times the MLB that DJ will EVER be.

I think it is too early to tell -- but I would be very surprised if he holds a candle to Wilson as well.

[Bob]

I agree. Also its not like Dallas is a pushover team. Dallas will most likely make a big run for the title this year.

I wonder if a game like this will work for us in the long term -- we saw some things to work on -- in our O-line blocking etc -- I just worry about our thin O line, and folks getting dinged-up.

[Bronco Yoda]

Yes the LB & O-line stunk it up. Champ, Bly & Lynch were in mid season form.

Did Foxworth look totaly lost out there or what!

Ferguson didn't look much better.

How has Foxworth looked in training camp?

[Northman]

Meanwhile, Mike Anderson has a big run for the Ravens just now. 3 carries for 38 yds so far.

[azbroncfan]

I am far and away the points leader (well, along with AZ Snake Fan) at
Broncomania. If an issue was debated at length here, then you can be sure it
was debated at length there. So I would have seen it, just elsewhere.

BTW, I am not entirely a "newbie" here, despite my post count. Take a look at
my join date.

Now, you are the one who has been saying D.J. "sucks," so the onus of
documentation is on you. What adds up to a LB corps being "widely considered
one of the best groups in the league" (see, again you are
distorting my words) is that they are widely considered one of
the best LB groups in the league. I should not have to document that.
It is common, very common, knowledge.

-----

You keep avoiding the questions I'm asking. Top tier LB unit's make plays in the form of sacks, int's, TFL, etc. Tell me How many Sacks and Int's have the Broncos had with Wilson, Gold and DJ playing the positions the last 2 years? Name a team with fewer INT's and Sacks out of the LB postion. When was the last time a Denver LB got an INT?

[Greybeard]

You keep avoiding the questions I'm asking. Top tier LB unit's make plays in the form of sacks, int's, TFL, etc. Tell me How many Sacks and Int's have the Broncos had with Wilson, Gold and DJ playing the positions the last 2 years? Name a team with fewer INT's and Sacks out of the LB postion. When was the last time a Denver LB got an INT?
And I keep reminding you that YOU are the one who said D.J. "sucks." So you
tell me how D.J. "sucks" . . . more than just "D.J. sucks." So, as I said before,
the onus is on YOU to provide the documentation, not me.

Regarding what you want out of me, all I said was that the LB corps was widely
considered to be one of the top groups. Now, if you want someone to back that
assumption up, you will have to go to the ones who considered them as that,
not me. I should not have to come up with any proof, other than they were
considered such, and that is very common knowledge. If I need to prove
THAT to you, then welcome to the real world . . . wherever you just came
from.

So let's see the documentation that YOU have been avoiding. YOU are the
only one to make any claims about another player or group of players. I only
repeated what they were considered by others to be.

Do I seem redundant? That is because I am. You see, I have already said it
again and again, so I figure that I probably would have to continue to repeat
it again and again.

Only, this is my last post on it. You seem like a nice enough guy, and you are
a fellow Arizonan, but I seem to be getting nowhere with you on this. So the
best thing is to terminate this particular conversation, don't you think?

-----

[azbroncfan]

And I keep reminding you that YOU are the one who said D.J. "sucks." So you
tell me how D.J. "sucks" . . . more than just "D.J. sucks." So, as I said before,
the onus is on YOU to provide the documentation, not me.

Regarding what you want out of me, all I said was that the LB corps was widely
considered to be one of the top groups. Now, if you want someone to back that
assumption up, you will have to go to the ones who considered them as that,
not me. I should not have to come up with any proof, other than they were
considered such, and that is very common knowledge. If I need to prove
THAT to you, then welcome to the real world . . . wherever you just came
from.

So let's see the documentation that YOU have been avoiding. YOU are the
only one to make any claims about another player or group of players. I only
repeated what they were considered by others to be.

Do I seem redundant? That is because I am. You see, I have already said it
again and again, so I figure that I probably would have to continue to repeat
it again and again.

Only, this is my last post on it. You seem like a nice enough guy, and you are
a fellow Arizonan, but I seem to be getting nowhere with you on this. So the
best thing is to terminate this particular conversation, don't you think?

-----

I have told you many times that DJ does not make plays, consistently overruns plays, isn't a great pass rusher, slow at making reads, and very average at pass coverage. Even though you aren't claiming to be the one who says best LB's in the league you keep mentioning others think that and Denver is the most overrated in the league the past 3 years and I have supported it many times. You claim your proof is the fact that the ESPN guys claim that is all the proof you need.

[Kaylore]

I remember when it came out that Denver had the fastest linebackers in the league. I thought that was cool and never would have believed that that would be the genesis of "best linebackers in the league" myth. There is no question that they were the fastest, but somewhere along the way fastest transformed into "best" and I don't that was true. I think truly great linebackers abuse the other team and make big plays and we just never saw that from our group.

Ian Gold had the most big plays with sacks and forced fumbles, but he also had trouble taking people down and was really like a third safety (except that his coverage wasn't very good). A

l Wilson was the leader and really played well for us but his play fell off after injuries last year and he also didn't really cause turnovers, get sacks or interceptions. He also started missing tackles and just wasn't the physical presence he was years ago.

DJ was the best in man coverage having the athleticism to run with receivers. He had a great rookie campaign, but then we his being moved around I think has hurt him. He also does struggle with recognition and biting on play action.

Honestly they were a solid group but they certainly were overrated. People that said they were the best rarely were able to explain why.

[Greybeard]

I have told you many times that DJ does not make plays, consistently overruns plays, isn't a great pass rusher, slow at making reads, and very average at pass coverage. Even though you aren't claiming to be the one who says best LB's in the league you keep mentioning others think that and Denver is the most overrated in the league the past 3 years and I have supported it many times. You claim your proof is the fact that the ESPN guys claim that is all the proof you need.
BINGO!! That is what I claim. It is a fact the LB corps, with Wilson, Williams, and
Gold was widely considered an elite group. I did not reveal my own private
opinion in it; I simply said they were widely considered as such . . . in effect,
preferring the opinions of more knowledgeable people over mine (or yours).

Moreover, you keep saying that I have been vaunting them as the "best LBs in
the league," when I did no such thing. I said they were widely considered
among the best. Never once did I say they were the best. Really, I am
beginning to believe that you are interested neither in hearing nor tellng the
truth, else you would honestly represent what I say, rather than twisting it.
Twisting is lying, friend. Please refer to the words above, under my screen
name.

Anyway, what's the big deal about the issue, anyway? Is this your life or
something? I dont' understand your insistence on making this a great big
argument.

This time, I really am out of here, as far as this asinine discussion is
concerned.

-----

[Greybeard]

I remember when it came out that Denver had the fastest linebackers in the league. I thought that was cool and never would have believed that that would be the genesis of "best linebackers in the league" myth. There is no question that they were the fastest, but somewhere along the way fastest transformed into "best" and I don't that was true. I think truly great linebackers abuse the other team and make big plays and we just never saw that from our group.

Ian Gold had the most big plays with sacks and forced fumbles, but he also had trouble taking people down and was really like a third safety (except that his coverage wasn't very good). A

l Wilson was the leader and really played well for us but his play fell off after injuries last year and he also didn't really cause turnovers, get sacks or interceptions. He also started missing tackles and just wasn't the physical presence he was years ago.

DJ was the best in man coverage having the athleticism to run with receivers. He had a great rookie campaign, but then we his being moved around I think has hurt him. He also does struggle with recognition and biting on play action.

Honestly they were a solid group but they certainly were overrated. People that said they were the best rarely were able to explain why.
I have no argument with that. They may well have been overrated. The only
way they could have been overrated is by people rating them, and they were
indeed widely considered one of the best in the league. Therefore, if they
were overrated, then it was they who did the overrating, not I.

What I do have an argument with is people coming out and twisting my
words, then taking issue with me according to their representations of my
words. That has become the gist of my own argument.

-----

[Mediator12]

I remember when it came out that Denver had the fastest linebackers in the league. I thought that was cool and never would have believed that that would be the genesis of "best linebackers in the league" myth. There is no question that they were the fastest, but somewhere along the way fastest transformed into "best" and I don't that was true. I think truly great linebackers abuse the other team and make big plays and we just never saw that from our group.

Ian Gold had the most big plays with sacks and forced fumbles, but he also had trouble taking people down and was really like a third safety (except that his coverage wasn't very good). A

l Wilson was the leader and really played well for us but his play fell off after injuries last year and he also didn't really cause turnovers, get sacks or interceptions. He also started missing tackles and just wasn't the physical presence he was years ago.

DJ was the best in man coverage having the athleticism to run with receivers. He had a great rookie campaign, but then we his being moved around I think has hurt him. He also does struggle with recognition and biting on play action.

Honestly they were a solid group but they certainly were overrated. People that said they were the best rarely were able to explain why.

They were very solid, but never playmakers like the 3-4 LB's that get overrated. That is what made them very good as a unit, they did their jobs and cleaned up for a pathetic front four every game. It took its toll on them too, with Al Wilson getting abused and forcing clean release combination blocks from guards and centers and they wore down heavily as season wore on. So much so, that have tried to change the front four to a power oriented physical group. Everyone discounts the LB's because they did not have a bundle of Huge Plays from Sacks, INT's, and FF's.

Well, the whole team kept the running game in the top 10 defenses in yards allowed per carry and per game while the DL ranked 28th and 31st in average Line yards per play! So, how the hell do you criticize the LB's when the DL was so poor? They also had to concede underneath routes last year because the pass rush is inconsistent. The extra second and a half forced the depth of their drops 5 yards deeper than optimum to come forward and make plays. This allowed RB's and TE's to have carreer years underneath against the defense as they got 3-4 extra yards they should not have gotten if the pass rush was there.

The LB's were very good at doing their jobs within the scheme, but they got worn out covering for the DL play the last two years and wore out down the stretches of both seasons. Now, they were not as good last year as they were in 2005, but still they were a top 5 unit in execution.

As for sacks, FF's, INT's, and TO's those are caused in high correlation to defensive pressure on the QB and at the POA on running plays. How good was DEN at that the last four years? Well below average. The LB's never got any gifts outside of Aaron Brooks in NO two years ago.

They also rarely blew assignments in the running game or passing game. they rarely made mental mistakes. The guy who did the most though is now showing his colors at MLB where he can not hide in this scheme. DJ better get his head out of his ass real quick or the sidelines or SAM is calling.

[Kaylore]

And I think most people were elated that we brought in some fresh talent for the defensive line during this draft. You'll have a hard time finding many hall of fame linebackers that didn't play with a dominating front line in front of them.

[broncolife]

I remember when it came out that Denver had the fastest linebackers in the league. I thought that was cool and never would have believed that that would be the genesis of "best linebackers in the league" myth. There is no question that they were the fastest, but somewhere along the way fastest transformed into "best" and I don't that was true. I think truly great linebackers abuse the other team and make big plays and we just never saw that from our group.

Ian Gold had the most big plays with sacks and forced fumbles, but he also had trouble taking people down and was really like a third safety (except that his coverage wasn't very good). A

l Wilson was the leader and really played well for us but his play fell off after injuries last year and he also didn't really cause turnovers, get sacks or interceptions. He also started missing tackles and just wasn't the physical presence he was years ago.

DJ was the best in man coverage having the athleticism to run with receivers. He had a great rookie campaign, but then we his being moved around I think has hurt him. He also does struggle with recognition and biting on play action.

Honestly they were a solid group but they certainly were overrated. People that said they were the best rarely were able to explain why.

Exactly how I feel. Al was a beast his contract year but he declined after that. Not saying he sucked, but I was expecting him to get better than his contract year not worse. One thing I hate about Shanny is he moves players around way too much. I definitely think DJ switching positions so often has hurt him. Shiat, even a player like Zimmerman had a tough time moving right tackle.

[Mediator12]

And I think most people were elated that we brought in some fresh talent for the defensive line during this draft. You'll have a hard time finding many hall of fame linebackers that didn't play with a dominating front line in front of them.

And that is what pisses me off about Al Wilson's Carreer. He was easily a top 3 MLB during most of his nine years here, behind a piss poor set of DT's. Guys like Zach Thomas, Ray Lewis, and Urlacher had far superior supporting casts and got way more publicity and recognition because their unit was better, not because they were far superior players. I would have loved to see Urlacher at MIKE for DEN last year when the guards were clean in to his grill on almost every play.

[Greybeard]

And I think most people were elated that we brought in some fresh talent for the defensive line during this draft. You'll have a hard time finding many hall of fame linebackers that didn't play with a dominating front line in front of them.
Floyd Little is a hot issue right now with his HOF consideration. Where would he
be in the annals of football history, had he a decent O-Line in front of him at
any time in his career?

In the same interest, Al Wilson likely will never be considered for the HOF. Yet
where would he be, had he backed up a really good defensive line?

That is one of the real travesties in the nature of the game. Tennis players and
golfers, for instance, largely control their own destinies. But football players are
so dependent on the workings of other positions for their own effectiveness.

We'll never know, will we?

-----

[broncolife]

They were very solid, but never playmakers like the 3-4 LB's that get overrated. That is what made them very good as a unit, they did their jobs and cleaned up for a pathetic front four every game. It took its toll on them too, with Al Wilson getting abused and forcing clean release combination blocks from guards and centers and they wore down heavily as season wore on. So much so, that have tried to change the front four to a power oriented physical group. Everyone discounts the LB's because they did not have a bundle of Huge Plays from Sacks, INT's, and FF's.

Well, the whole team kept the running game in the top 10 defenses in yards allowed per carry and per game while the DL ranked 28th and 31st in average Line yards per play! So, how the hell do you criticize the LB's when the DL was so poor? They also had to concede underneath routes last year because the pass rush is inconsistent. The extra second and a half forced the depth of their drops 5 yards deeper than optimum to come forward and make plays. This allowed RB's and TE's to have carreer years underneath against the defense as they got 3-4 extra yards they should not have gotten if the pass rush was there.

The LB's were very good at doing their jobs within the scheme, but they got worn out covering for the DL play the last two years and wore out down the stretches of both seasons. Now, they were not as good last year as they were in 2005, but still they were a top 5 unit in execution.

As for sacks, FF's, INT's, and TO's those are caused in high correlation to defensive pressure on the QB and at the POA on running plays. How good was DEN at that the last four years? Well below average. The LB's never got any gifts outside of Aaron Brooks in NO two years ago.

They also rarely blew assignments in the running game or passing game. they rarely made mental mistakes. The guy who did the most though is now showing his colors at MLB where he can not hide in this scheme. DJ better get his head out of his ass real quick or the sidelines or SAM is calling.

Come on now, some of the gifts they did get they dropped. I remember thinking our Lbs had the worst hands in the nfl.

[broncolife]

Anybody know how John Mobley is doing?

[24champ]

And that is what pisses me off about Al Wilson's Carreer. He was easily a top 3 MLB during most of his nine years here, behind a piss poor set of DT's. Guys like Zach Thomas, Ray Lewis, and Urlacher had far superior supporting casts and got way more publicity and recognition because their unit was better, not because they were far superior players. I would have loved to see Urlacher at MIKE for DEN last year when the guards were clean in to his grill on almost every play.

Concur. It's going to be the same thing this year if the players up front won't do their jobs or their assignment of taking up blockers. The more things change the more they stay the same it seems.

[Mediator12]

Come on now, some of the gifts they did get they dropped. I remember thinking our Lbs had the worst hands in the nfl.

In 2003 and 2004, they dropped a bunch. Tell me a game in 2005 or 2006 where a LB dropped a gimme INT? I'm talking hit him in the hands, not making a good catch outstretched. A play where the QB misjudged and threw it right to a LB? Nah, you are just remembering several years ago unfortunately.

[broncolife]

In 2003 and 2004, they dropped a bunch. Tell me a game in 2005 or 2006 where a LB dropped a gimme INT? I'm talking hit him in the hands, not making a good catch outstretched. A play where the QB misjudged and threw it right to a LB? Nah, you are just remembering several years ago unfortunately.
Sorry cant remember every game, I just remember them sucking at catching the ball and them practicing all the time to get better. Just like how Rod had the dropsy when he first started.I do remember Ian Gold finally was catching the ints before he left us.