Broncos defense still needs work

[dragondawg]

IRVING, Texas - Call it foreshadowing, in hindsight.

On a Dallas radio station on Thursday, new Denver Broncos defensive boss Jim Bates did an interview during a break between practices in which he expressed his concerns about how his players had adapted to his new scheme through nearly three weeks of training camp.

?I?m still a little leery,? he said at the time. ?We?re not even where we were in Green Bay with lesser talent at this stage of the game, 24 days before our first game. I?m still concerned at getting all the pieces to fit, the system to work and everybody to buy in. I still have concerns defensively.?

Bates? level of trepidation has likely hit new highs after watching the Broncos first unit miss tackles, blow assignments and even attempt to take a timeout that didn?t exist in the first half Saturday night against the Cowboys. And outside of a few pass rushes by rookie Jarvis Moss, the pass rush didn?t get to Dallas quarterback Tony Romo, either, compounding the problems.

Denver, which wasn?t specifically scheming for Dallas in the second preseason game, expected it to be a mano-a-mano type affair against a physical Cowboys front after the San Francisco 49ers gouged the defense for 144 rushing yards in the exhibition opener six days earlier.

The Broncos lost the majority of those individual battles.

?We laid an egg,? Broncos safety John Lynch said.

Dallas converted 15 first downs in the opening half, put together drives of 60 and 69 yards, converted 6-of-8 third downs and scored on each of its red-zone trips on three short rushing touchdowns in grabbing a 24-6 advantage against the Broncos starters.

It would have been worse if not for two takeaways, on Dre? Bly?s interception deep in Cowboys territory and safety Nick Ferguson?s fumble recovery.

The most troubling aspect is probably the way Denver defended the run.

Marion Barber (11 carries for 57 yards) and Julius Jones (9-31) consistently found traffic in the middle but bounced outside for gains. Denver?s linebackers either pinched too far inside or didn?t wrap up, leaving their cornerbacks and safeties to clean up.

?The effort was there but obviously we missed a lot of tackles,? Denver cornerback Champ Bailey said.

Dallas, which played its offensive starters until halftime, finished with 368 total yards, including 190 yards on 42 rushing attempts.

The trouble began on Dallas? opening drive, which ended with a missed field goal. Nickel cornerback Domonique Foxworth slipped and fell, allowing Patrick Crayton to rumble 30 yards on a catch-and-run..

A 15-yard punt by Todd Sauerbrun gave the Cowboys field position at their own 40 to start their second drive. And Dallas converted two third downs on its way to the first of two Marion Barber scoring runs. The Broncos brought out their pass-rush front on third-and-5 and Barber used their aggressiveness to get to the passer against the Broncos? front by racing past end Elvis Dumervil.over right tackle. Moss at defensive end then was a half-second late as Romo (11 of 18, 122 yards) uncorked a 20-yard completion to Sam Hurd on third-and-9.

?We pride ourselves on getting off on third down,? Bailey said. ?But we haven?t made someone punt yet. We have to clean that up.?

Travis Henry?s fumble set up Dallas at the Broncos 7, so it?s difficult to fault Denver much when it took two Jones runs to punch it in for a 14-0 edge. But the ease with which the Cowboys scored had to be disconcerting. On the 4-yard scoring run, Dallas blocked down on defensive end John Engelberger and Nate Webster, starting at strong-side linebacker after D.D. Lewis got the call the previous week, filled an inside gap. But no one was there as Jones crashed over the right side.

Two series later, more blown coverages.

Dallas tight end Tony Curtis was left uncovered for an 11-yard completion, a play on which Denver defensive end Ebenezer Ekuban tore his right Achilles, an injury that will end his season. Moments later, on another third down, Bailey picked up the slot receiver over the middle and Crayton crossed the other direction but didn?t draw a defender.. His 28-yard gain moved Dallas into Denver territory.

?These things that are happening in the games, they?ve happened in practice. And we?ve got to start cleaning it up,? Lynch said. ?The urgency?s got to speed up here.?

Bly was then called for pass interference when he tugged on Austin?s jersey with his right arm on an in-cut in the red zone. Barber shook an ankle tackle in the backfield and ran through Webster for a 5-yard TD on the next play for a 21-3 Cowboys edge.

But Dallas wasn?t done. On a third-and-8 at midfield, Denver had difficulty getting the proper personnel grouping on the field. Linebacker Ian Gold attempted to sprint off the field, but the ball was quickly snapped and Moss was called for an offsides penalty.

?That?s a little frustrating,? Bailey said. ?Because we shouldn?t be wasting timeouts on defense ever. We need to get that taken care of.?

Barber powered for six more yards on third-and-3 on the next snap. But the defense finally held on third-and-8, with Nick Folk striking a 52-yard field goal to end the first half scoring.

?You don?t want to panic,? Lynch said. ?You know from experience that we play all these games to build to the opener. Although we didn?t take a positive step tonight, I thought we did this week. We got some great work against the Cowboys. There?s going ot be no panic. We?re going to be a good football team. We?ve got to go make it happen.?

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/home/article/0,1299,DRMN_1_5677158,00.html

[Atlas]

?what?s the deal with all the ques?tion marks?

[Kaylore]

?what?s the deal with all the ques?tion marks?

It must be a software issue where all the ' and " marks change to ?.

[yerner]

Geez, that whole thing sounds bad.

[HEAV]

These things that are happening in the games, they've happened in practice. And we've got to start cleaning it up, Lynch said. The urgency's got to speed up here.?

OUCH!

[Meck77]

I'm glad the vets are stepping up and telling it like it is. There is no reason to sugar coat getting your ass handed to you.

[TailgateNut]

Regarding the title of the thread: it's akin to saying it may be warm in the Mojave in August.

[Greybeard]

"The most troubling aspect is probably the way Denver defended the run."

Oh? Is that what Denver did?

-----

[Stuck In Texas]

"The most troubling aspect is probably the way Denver defended the run."

Oh? Is that what Denver did?

-----

Maybe they meant to put the word defended in quotes. :)

[Cito Pelon]

IRVING, Texas - Call it foreshadowing, in hindsight.

On a Dallas radio station on Thursday, new Denver Broncos defensive boss Jim Bates did an interview during a break between practices in which he expressed his concerns about how his players had adapted to his new scheme through nearly three weeks of training camp.

?I?m still a little leery,? he said at the time. ?We?re not even where we were in Green Bay with lesser talent at this stage of the game, 24 days before our first game. Im still concerned at getting all the pieces to fit, the system to work and everybody to buy in. I still have concerns defensively.?

Hold the phone here a sec, Bates said that to a DALLAS RADIO STATION? I remember there was a thread about this:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=59546

That thread said "ESPN". I didn't pay attention to the thread, but I'll comment on that now. Regardless of the venue - local Dallas radio or ESPN - those comments are a kick in the nuts to the D.

[Stuck In Texas]

Hold the phone here a sec, Bates said that to a DALLAS RADIO STATION? I remember there was a thread about this:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=59546

That thread said "ESPN". I didn't pay attention to the thread, but I'll comment on that now. Regardless of the venue - local Dallas radio or ESPN - those comments are a kick in the nuts to the D.

Last night the defense showed that Bates is the master of the understatement. The defense looked MUCH worse than Bates indicated.

[Broncoman13]

Just found this on BroncosCountry... don't know if it's been posted around here or not. A little bit of perspective if you will.

For those who are already doubting Bates...
...read this article and get a clue.

http://www.packersnews.com/legacy/po...22357031.shtml

By Pete Dougherty
PackersNews.com

The Green Bay Packers’ starters couldn’t even stay in the ring with the defending Super Bowl champions. The New England Patriots, who have won three of the last four NFL title games, looked every bit the part of a championship contender again this year in their 27-3 win over the Packers in the 45th annual Bishop’s Charities Game at Lambeau Field on Friday night.

The Packers, on the other hand, appeared overmatched at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball facing an elite team only two weeks before the start of the regular season.

In the NFL’s big picture, preseason games mean little and are almost never remembered at the end of a long season. But the third game provides the longest look at starters vs. starters in the preseason, and that’s where the Packers were a failure. Both clubs played all their starters the entire first half — the Patriots’ starting offense opened the second half, but the Packers went with backup quarterback Aaron Rodgers — and New England’s first-teamers blew out the Packers’, 20-3, by intermission.

“I’m very concerned about the way we played,” coach Mike Sherman said. “We didn’t play very well, obviously.”

The Packers had several noteworthy problems in the first half, and for the first time in this exhibition season some came with the first-team offense.

For one, they might have failed to answer one of their key questions, namely, whether rookie Will Whitticker will start at left and right guard. The seventh-round pick was beaten badly on a couple snaps by Richard Seymour, New England’s Pro Bowl defensive tackle. The door just might remain open for Matt O’Dwyer to start

Whitticker was not alone. The entire offensive line had problems, which keeps alive doubts about whether this offense will weather loss of guards Mike Wahle and Marco Rivera in free agency this past offseason.

The Packers provided quarterback Brett Favre spotty pass protection, and though they tried again and again, couldn’t run against New England’s 3-4 defensive front — halfback Ahman Green averaged only 2.7 yards on nine first-half rushes.

“We got our butts whipped. That’s the first thing going through my mind,” said Mark Tauscher, the Packers’ right tackle.

Center Mike Flanagan said: “This is the one game we had some time, and it’s the worst game we’ve had in the preseason. This is really frustrating.”

The one thing that can derail the Packers more than any other is if their offense, which is the backbone of the team, turns the ball over.

On Friday night, it did.

Quarterback Brett Favre had a bad night after playing well in the first two exhibition games. He threw two interceptions and had a third called back because of a New England penalty elsewhere on the play.

All three appeared to be Favre’s responsibility.

On top of that, Green, who’s been plagued by fumbling problems early in each of his previous five seasons with the Packers, fumbled again Friday night in the first series of the third quarter, his third fumble of the preseason.

“When you turn the ball over as many times as we did and give them the field position we did, I don’t care what defense you put out there,” Sherman said.

Also, the Packers for the second straight week suffered through a couple special teams gaffes, including allowing a Ellis Hobbs a 43-yard kickoff return to open the game.

Defensive coordinator Jim Bates also has to be wondering whether he’s going to be able to do much better than Bob Slowik did last season when he finished 27th in the NFL in yards allowed per rush. With their top three defensive tackles (Grady Jackson, Cletidus Hunt and Corey Williams) and starting linebacker Na’il Diggs sidelined with injuries, the Packers’ defense opened up like a freeway early in the game while New England halfbacks Corey Dillion and Kevin Faulk combined for 79 yards rushing on 14 carries before halftime, an average of 5.5 yards a carry.

If this was any indication, the Packers could be in huge trouble if they can’t keep Jackson healthy during the regular season, which is a never-ending concern considering his 360-pound plus weight and injury history.

Backup defensive tackles Cullen Jenkins and Colin Cole got the start, and along with defensive end Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila were knocked off the line on the first two series, which ended with New England ahead 10-0. Jenkins’ size (290 pounds) appears to limit him to a rushing role when he’s playing inside, and Gbaja-Biamila faces similar problems on the outside.

Donnell Washington, James Lee and Kenny Peterson produced better results later in the first half, because the Patriots punted on both series when those three rotated in the middle of the defensive line. However, the Patriots also had a penalty on each of those series.

“We didn’t play a lot of runs very well,” Bates said. “There’s some signs (of improvement) though. I saw some individuals getting off blocks and holding their ground.”

(For those who don't know, the Packers finished the 2005 season ranked #7 in overall defense and #1 against the pass.)

[Rock Chalk]

It must be a software issue where all the ' and " marks change to ?.

encoding issue with sending and retrieving data from a database. Probably storing it as UTF-8 and retreiving it as ISO-8559 or something. I have this problem when trying to build XML files from databases, you have to convert these special characters. Pain in the ass.

[Inkana7]

Lynch is quoted as saying that the defense only ran two coverages and two fronts all game. That's about as vanilla as you get, and Dallas obviously game planned. The sky, in fact, is not falling.

[anthonypacino]

Lynch is quoted as saying that the defense only ran two coverages and two fronts all game. That's about as vanilla as you get, and Dallas obviously game planned. The sky, in fact, is not falling.

Bates D doesn't call for lots of schemes and different looks, they don't go out of the way trying to confuse the QB they simply line up and try to perfectly execute...when that doesn't happen you get beat.

I really didn't know why so many here thought that Bates was that big a improvement over Coyer, what has Bates ever won? In a NFL that has had many teams ride the coat tails of it's D to Super Bowl victories or apperences where on that list is a Bates coached D?

The scheme hasn't been 100% of the problem, it's been the talent trying to run the scheme and Denver simply doesn't have it where they need it right now

[Los Broncos]

I didnt watch the game last night but, from the sound of it things went bad.

Just have to give it time

[anthonypacino]

I didnt watch the game last night but, from the sound of it things went bad.

Just have to give it time

It was like watching Madden 08 come to life...all the Broncos sliders were on 50 and the Boys' were cranked up.

[Greybeard]

Bates D doesn't call for lots of schemes and different looks, they don't go out of the way trying to confuse the QB they simply line up and try to perfectly execute...when that doesn't happen you get beat.

I really didn't know why so many here thought that Bates was that big a improvement over Coyer, what has Bates ever won? In a NFL that has had many teams ride the coat tails of it's D to Super Bowl victories or apperences where on that list is a Bates coached D?

The scheme hasn't been 100% of the problem, it's been the talent trying to run the scheme and Denver simply doesn't have it where they need it right now
So I assume what you're saying is that the only quality coaches in the NFL are
the ones who have appeared in the Super Bowl, including assistants? That
Green Bay's going from the #24 defense to the #7 defense in one year after
Bates taking over should not be part of his credentials?

Bates is widely recognized by knowledgeable people (not posters on football
message boards) as one of the top defensive coaches in the league. Further,
the defense lacks experience (and health, presently), not talent.

I have seen some excellent analyses here. This is not one. Sorry. ???

-----

[footstepsfrom#27]

So I assume what you're saying is that the only quality coaches in the NFL are
the ones who have appeared in the Super Bowl, including assistants? That
Green Bay's going from the #24 defense to the #7 defense in one year after
Bates taking over should not be part of his credentials?
I hate to bring this up but I pointed out previously that Bates defense in GB was not all it was cracked up to be. The pass defense improved, but they stunk against the run.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1579028&highlight=Bates#post1579028

Yes...well lost in the stats is the fact that the Packers finished 10-6 the year before Bates got there and 4-12 with him there. Green Bay finished tied for 20th in scoring defense under Bates in 2005, up from a 23rd place finish in 2004 so they did achieve marginal improvement (2.3ppg), but their 3rd down defense failed to improve, finishing 9th both years and falling slightly under Bates from 35% to 35.9%. Bates gets credit in Green Bay for dramatically improving the pass defense from 25th to 1st overall even though sacks fell from 40 to 35, which is why the Packers overall defensive ranking improved from 25th to 7th. However this is a bit deceiving as well. The 2004 10-6 Packers team gave up a combined 140 points in only 3 of their games...almost 47 ppg...37% of thier SEASON total...to Peyton Manning, Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb, which radically skewed the defensive scoring stats. In the other 13 games that defense surrendered just 15.6 ppg. By contrast the 4-11 2005 club under Bates didn't face Manning and played Philly while McNabb was out. Oddly, their only huge letdown came against Baltimore when they were scorched for 48. So while the scoring average improved slightly under Bates, that improvement was entirely the result of 3 games where the defense performed very poorly the year before.
I'm actually referring to when we can fill some of these holes I mentioned, but we've had this discussion before so we're just rehashing the same things now.

Since I think you're reasoning has a lot to do with not only Bates but our kiddi D-line and their prospects for making an impact right up front...if you're using stats to compare the Packers D under Bates to show potential for improvement with Denver, it's a good idea to be sure we're talking apples to apples here. Our primary problem has been lack of talent in the D-line, specifically inability to mount a pass rush. In 2004 Green Bay had 40 sacks...under Bates in 2005 they dropped off to 35 despite the increased emphasis on the pass rush. Bates was working with Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila who was a already a three year starter when he got there. Gbaja-Biamila had 13 sacks in 2004 and dropped to 8 under Bates. Aaron Kampman was already a starter also and while his tackle numbers jumped significantly under Bates, he moved from only 4 sacks to 6 in 2005. Green Bay also ranked 23rd against the run in 2005, DOWN from 14th the year before so it wasn't quite as cut and dried as you're portraying it here. Who knows what additional factors played a role besides the coaching change...for example, Ahmad Carroll moved into the starting lineup at CB in 2005 as well after his rookie year as a #1 pick coming off the bench.

I hope you're right but there are more factors than just looking at the stats...chief among them the talent AND experience of the starting D-linemen, and in terms of experience our best talent has the least of it right now. A similiar situation exists in Miami where Taylor was already a veteran starter when Bates got there so he wasn't working with rooks there either.

[anthonypacino]

So I assume what you're saying is that the only quality coaches in the NFL are
the ones who have appeared in the Super Bowl, including assistants? That
Green Bay's going from the #24 defense to the #7 defense in one year after
Bates taking over should not be part of his credentials?

Bates is widely recognized by knowledgeable people (not posters on football
message boards) as one of the top defensive coaches in the league. Further,
the defense lacks experience (and health, presently), not talent.

I have seen some excellent analyses here. This is not one. Sorry. ???

-----
No, but his teams in the past for the Phins' were known for falling apart in the playoffs, and despite all of his merits the Phins' wouldn't hire him a HC and neither did the the Pack. The Norse division wasn't known for lighting up the scoreboards either so 6 games against the Lions, Bears, Vikes helps those stats a little.

I never said he wasn't a quality coach but I also didn't think he was the next coming of Buddy Ryan either, IMO the move to him from Coyer was lateral. By your manner of thinking why was Coyer released? The Broncos on paper were one of the best D's off all time last year.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Jesus Christ, he's a good coordinator. He had success in Green Bay and in miami...why are we blaming HIM when its our PLAYERS that arent getting it done. I really hate this message board sometimes. it aggrevates me much more than it should.

[anthonypacino]

Jesus Christ, he's a good coordinator. He had success in Green Bay and in miami...why are we blaming HIM when its our PLAYERS that arent getting it done. I really hate this message board sometimes. it aggrevates me much more than it should.

I'm not blaming him for nothing, I simply said I didn't understand why folks around here thought that his signing was what was going to put the team over the top and into the SB. His accomplishments didn't seem any greater to me than anything that Larry Coyer had done in his time in Denver.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Jesus Christ, he's a good coordinator. He had success in Green Bay and in miami...why are we blaming HIM when its our PLAYERS that arent getting it done. I really hate this message board sometimes. it aggrevates me much more than it should.
Bates IMO has done fairly well with what he's had to work with, but there are some in here who think he's infallible or some kind of miracle worker. I'm glad he's here since I like his philosophy better than what we've used in the past, but let's not pretend he created the Steel Curtain or something.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I'm not blaming him for nothing, I simply said I didn't understand why folks around here thought that his signing was what was going to put the team over the top and into the SB. His accomplishments didn't seem any greater to me than anything that Larry Coyer had done in his time in Denver.

So you enjoyed the great larry coyer and his 9 man blitzes? you own that. Plus, lets at least get 4 regular season games under their belt before we start rating the d

[Kaylore]

I'm not blaming him for nothing, I simply said I didn't understand why folks around here thought that his signing was what was going to put the team over the top and into the SB. His accomplishments didn't seem any greater to me than anything that Larry Coyer had done in his time in Denver.

I think the reason was the pass rush success they had. I personally liked Coyer and supported him, but I also think maybe the team needed a new perspective. Hopefully Bates works. At least he got some defensive line talent to play with.

[Rock Chalk]

No threat at DE

No real MLB

No true Run stuffing DT

We got lots to do.

[Tombstone RJ]

No threat at DE

No real MLB

No true Run stuffing DT

We got lots to do.

What's this we stuff? Got a mouse in your pocket? :yayaya:

[jayman_37]

Ok I have been watching the game replay on nfl network for the first time and I have focused on DJ and I have noticed that he just isn't attacking the line of scrimmage at all right now. He gets about at two yards and then finds a blocker to take on instead of getting up into the line and just finding the ball carrier. It seems to me and maybe I am not as smart as Mediator but he just looks to clog a lane instead of getting to the ball and trusting his instincts. Mediator maybe you could check out the tape and tell us what you think.

[Willynowei]

LOL Its week 2 in the preseason guys.

[jayman_37]

I understand its week two in the preseason, but this is all I have to think about right now. haha. I guess I am just concnerned and I don't think that DJ should be moved out or something like that, I am just wondering if this is something that can be picked up in three weeks or if it is something that is more natural.

[footstepsfrom#27]

LOL Its week 2 in the preseason guys.
Nonsense! It's never to early to panic! :yayaya:

[broncsyanks]

sorry have to agree. its week 2 in the preseason. if it was week 2 in season i would be worried. we have 2 more games to get it right. its that simple. in case anyone didnt notice the cowboys had max protect a few times against the number 1 defense and as far as i saw we didnt really blitz all to often. and i personally like the fact that they blitzed and cutler coulod see it coming at him. makes him make the adjustments. it happens all the time against new qb's. we have a lot to learn from it and our team will

[baja]

Every thing considered I thought Jay had a good game.

[NFLBRONCO]

Every thing considered I thought Jay had a good game.

I thought he did too Baja. I just hope he can survive until OL gets into shape.

[NFLBRONCO]

About both the DLine AND the Oline...



In camp reports, we've all heard the glowing reports about how well the defensive tackles have played. However, come game time, this is the 2nd game in a row that the DTs have been absolutely abused. I honestly believe that some of the problem here can be traced to the fact that the DL practices every day against an OL that is simply not suited to helping them improve.

I mean, think about it, if you are Amon Gordon and Sam Adams, is practicing against 285lb Ben Hamilton, Tom Nalen and barely 300lb Chris Kuper REALLY helping you prepare for 360(on a day when he has fasted) Leonard Davis, 312lb Andre Gurode and 305lb Kyle Kosier?

In previous years, with the DTs focus being to penetrate the backfield, this may not have been too much of an issue. With Bates' scheme, I think this is a problem.

Maybe I am reaching because I do wish the team would significantly upgrade the size of the OLine(and have wished so for 3-4 years) but I seriously think some of the issues with the DL can be directly traced back to the guys in which they are practicing against.

Thoughts?

From poster at kffl

He made good points something to consider

[Tombstone RJ]

About both the DLine AND the Oline...



In camp reports, we've all heard the glowing reports about how well the defensive tackles have played. However, come game time, this is the 2nd game in a row that the DTs have been absolutely abused. I honestly believe that some of the problem here can be traced to the fact that the DL practices every day against an OL that is simply not suited to helping them improve.

I mean, think about it, if you are Amon Gordon and Sam Adams, is practicing against 285lb Ben Hamilton, Tom Nalen and barely 300lb Chris Kuper REALLY helping you prepare for 360(on a day when he has fasted) Leonard Davis, 312lb Andre Gurode and 305lb Kyle Kosier?

In previous years, with the DTs focus being to penetrate the backfield, this may not have been too much of an issue. With Bates' scheme, I think this is a problem.

Maybe I am reaching because I do wish the team would significantly upgrade the size of the OLine(and have wished so for 3-4 years) but I seriously think some of the issues with the DL can be directly traced back to the guys in which they are practicing against.

Thoughts?

From poster at kffl

He made good points something to consider


Yah, that is what the damn pre-season games are f***ing for. You can only get so far practicing your own team. Hence, a strange phenamena called the "pre-season" has been incorporated into the NFL.

Strange, but true.

[Rock Chalk]

We got 3 weeks to get it straightened out.

The good news, I think is that the lines will work themselves out.

The bad news is i dont think DJ will ever have enough mean in him to be a good MLB

[ZONA]

I think post should be moved to the Butt. Why not?