PDA

View Full Version : America/Rome....interesting read


Hotrod
08-15-2007, 11:53 AM
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/80fa0a2c-49ef-11dc-9ffe-0000779fd2ac.html

By Jeremy Grant in Washington

Published: August 14 2007 00:06 | Last updated: August 14 2007 00:06

The US government is on a ‘burning platform’ of unsustainable policies and practices with fiscal deficits, chronic healthcare underfunding, immigration and overseas military commitments threatening a crisis if action is not taken soon, the country’s top government inspector has warned.

David Walker, comptroller general of the US, issued the unusually downbeat assessment of his country’s future in a report that lays out what he called “chilling long-term simulations”.

These include “dramatic” tax rises, slashed government services and the large-scale dumping by foreign governments of holdings of US debt.

Drawing parallels with the end of the Roman empire, Mr Walker warned there were “striking similarities” between America’s current situation and the factors that brought down Rome, including “declining moral values and political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government”.

“Sound familiar?” Mr Walker said. “In my view, it’s time to learn from history and take steps to ensure the American Republic is the first to stand the test of time.”

Mr Walker’s views carry weight because he is a non-partisan figure in charge of the Government Accountability Office, often described as the investigative arm of the US Congress.

While most of its studies are commissioned by legislators, about 10 per cent – such as the one containing his latest warnings – are initiated by the comptroller general himself.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Mr Walker said he had mentioned some of the issues before but now wanted to “turn up the volume”. Some of them were too sensitive for others in government to “have their name associated with”.

“I’m trying to sound an alarm and issue a wake-up call,” he said. “As comptroller general I’ve got an ability to look longer-range and take on issues that others may be hesitant, and in many cases may not be in a position, to take on.

“One of the concerns is obviously we are a great country but we face major sustainability challenges that we are not taking seriously enough,” said Mr Walker, who was appointed during the Clinton administration to the post, which carries a 15-year term.

The fiscal imbalance meant the US was “on a path toward an explosion of debt”.

“With the looming retirement of baby boomers, spiralling healthcare costs, plummeting savings rates and increasing reliance on foreign lenders, we face unprecedented fiscal risks,” said Mr Walker, a former senior executive at PwC auditing firm.

Current US policy on education, energy, the environment, immigration and Iraq also was on an “unsustainable path”.

“Our very prosperity is placing greater demands on our physical infrastructure. Billions of dollars will be needed to modernise everything from highways and airports to water and sewage systems. The recent bridge collapse in Minneapolis was a sobering wake-up call.”

Mr Walker said he would offer to brief the would-be presidential candidates next spring.

“They need to make fiscal responsibility and inter-generational equity one of their top priorities. If they do, I think we have a chance to turn this around but if they don’t, I think the risk of a serious crisis rises considerably

Spider
08-15-2007, 12:06 PM
I have been to Rome several times , I had no Idea Rome Georgia was such an empire once ......... the things you learn on the internets ;D

Hotrod
08-15-2007, 12:12 PM
I have been to Rome several times , I had no Idea Rome Georgia was such an empire once ......... the things you learn on the internets ;D

Back in the day ROFL!

Willynowei
08-15-2007, 12:23 PM
Yes, debt, credit problems, all heard it before. But hardly like the collapse of the Roman Empire - which is mostly theorized to have been due their Legions losing their professionalism. By such a comparison, we should be fighting more right now to keep our military sharp.

Or, we could just get a competent leader in the white house who's not going to make one bad decision after another.

c_lazy_r
08-15-2007, 12:24 PM
It is truly difficult to believe that the problems in this country today are not taken more seriously.



The only real questions in my mind are:

How long before the collapse?

How severe will it be?

Spider
08-15-2007, 12:27 PM
It is truly difficult to believe that the problems in this country today are not taken more seriously.



The only real questions in my mind are:

How long before the collapse?

How severe will it be?
I doubt we will collapse ........we could always sell reruns of the Simpsons around the world

c_lazy_r
08-15-2007, 12:28 PM
I have been to Rome several times , I had no Idea Rome Georgia was such an empire once ......... the things you learn on the internets ;D

Wonder if the gladiators fought pit bulls in the coliseum?

c_lazy_r
08-15-2007, 12:29 PM
I doubt we will collapse ........we could always sell reruns of the Simpsons around the world

True and we could all live on Spam and Diet Coke.

Spider
08-15-2007, 12:30 PM
True and we could all live on Spam and Diet Coke.

you mean there people who dont now ?
tell me of this good life

Spider
08-15-2007, 12:30 PM
Wonder if the gladiators fought pit bulls in the coliseum?

some family with the last name of Vick ;D

c_lazy_r
08-15-2007, 12:46 PM
some family with the last name of Vick ;D


Mickus Vickius, I think.

AKA: Gous Tojailius (anyone?)

Rohirrim
08-16-2007, 11:43 AM
What we need are more bread and circuses. I notice how these pundits always like to point out "moral decline" as if it is the American people at fault. In fact, why do people lose faith in their government, and then in their country? Because of lying, corrupt leaders; Which is pretty much all I've seen coming out of Washington my entire life. LBJ in Vietnam. Nixon in Watergate. Reagan in Irangate. Clinton in BJgate. And Bush, pretty much daily. And now the Visigoths are pouring over our borders.

The Roman parallels are right on, though. We have a mercenary army, just like them. Our foreign policy has nothing to do with our purported values and everything to do with our greed for resources. Our democratic process has become a joke, just like in Rome (where Caligula thought his Senate was so laughably corrupt and servile that he made his horse, Incitatus, a Senator). Don't forget, one of the greatest public salesmen for "Republican values" was Augustus - the first emperor. Ha!

Billy Clyde Puckett
08-16-2007, 12:45 PM
[QUOTE=Rohirrim;1678329](where Caligula thought his Senate was so laughably corrupt and servile that he made his horse, Incitatus, a Senator). QUOTE]

I'm on board. Mr. Ed for congress. Would do a better job than 99% of the clowns there now.

BroncsRule
08-16-2007, 12:46 PM
The whole "moral decay" thing is overblown - we get that idea from Edward Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", published in 1776. Gibbon was British, and his treatise was as much political commentary on his own times as anything else. He saw the decline and fall of the British Empire happening around him (in his own estimation) due to a rise in homosexuality and other moral perversities. In Gibbon's view, the Romans became soft and effeminate, unwilling to live the tougher, "manly" military lifestile of their forebearers. His was a cautionary tale for his own times and people. In short, he was a homophobe and a loon.

There are parallels that do matter - Rome really failed because they stopped growing. Their entire way of existence was predicated on continual growth - As is ours. When there were no more territories to easily conquer and exploit, the tax base started to erode. Their system was unable or unwilling to shift to a new paradigm of sustainability - stability without growth. So far, neither have we.

Then there was a climatic event in +/- 560 A.D. - probably a volcanic eruption, that lead to a dark 2 year period - the year without a summer. (the Dark Ages really were Dark! - who knew?)

Crop failure, wide spread famine, a plague that preyed on a hunger weakened population pretty much finished them off.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
08-16-2007, 04:03 PM
Don't forget, one of the greatest public salesmen for "Republican values" was Augustus - the first emperor. Ha!

http://www.bartcop.com/minn-bridge-horz.jpg

Bronco Bob
08-16-2007, 04:42 PM
The whole "moral decay" thing is overblown - we get that idea from Edward Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", published in 1776. Gibbon was British, and his treatise was as much political commentary on his own times as anything else. He saw the decline and fall of the British Empire happening around him (in his own estimation) due to a rise in homosexuality and other moral perversities. In Gibbon's view, the Romans became soft and effeminate, unwilling to live the tougher, "manly" military lifestile of their forebearers. His was a cautionary tale for his own times and people. In short, he was a homophobe and a loon.



But isn't the British Empire pretty much kaput these days? So maybe he
was right after all.

BroncsRule
08-16-2007, 05:40 PM
But isn't the British Empire pretty much kaput these days? So maybe he
was right after all.

The problem with the morality assertion is the timeline: Gibbon asserted that Rome became decadent and soft in the 3rd-4th century A.D. - when in fact the Roman aristocracy had been buggering small boys at all night orgies for 700 years at that point. Roman culture came from Etruscan and Greek culture (and we all know about them Greeks). They were extremely amoral (by modern standards) from the very begining. If moral decay is a causal factor of the collapse, how do you explain away the fact that they were partying like rock stars from the very begining - and throughout the "Golden Age"(not so Golden if you were born a slave, BTW) of the Republic and early Empire?

Likewise, Gibbon was also wrong about Britain - the imorality he saw destroying his nation failed to do so - Gibbon published RaFotRE in 1776. Britain continued as the preminent superpower on the planet into the early 20th century.

Moral decay does not destroy societies. Although conservative old farts in every generation continue to think so.

Economic collapse brought on by a climatic event or war seems to be the #1 culprit in most cases.

Slow Erosion of the tax base for a variety of reasons seems to be a close second.

Bronco Bob
08-16-2007, 05:49 PM
The problem with the morality assertion is the timeline: Gibbon asserted that Rome became decadent and soft in the 3rd-4th century A.D. - when in fact the Roman aristocracy had been buggering small boys at all night orgies for 700 years at that point. Roman culture came from Etruscan and Greek culture (and we all know about them Greeks). They were extremely amoral (by modern standards) from the very begining. If moral decay is a causal factor of the collapse, how do you explain away the fact that they were partying like rock stars from the very begining - and throughout the "Golden Age"(not so Golden if you were born a slave, BTW) of the Republic and early Empire?

Likewise, Gibbon was also wrong about Britain - the imorality he saw destroying his nation failed to do so - Gibbon published RaFotRE in 1776. Britain continued as the preminent superpower on the planet into the early 20th century.

Moral decay does not destroy societies. Although conservative old farts in every generation continue to think so.

Economic collapse brought on by a climatic event or war seems to be the #1 culprit in most cases.

Slow Erosion of the tax base for a variety of reasons seems to be a close second.

Come to think of it, the most interesting thing about people blaming
decadence for the Fall of the Roman Empire is that the Roman Empire
didn't fall until after the Emperor Constantine converted Rome to
Christianity. Like you said, the Romans were doing just fine when
they were Pagans. Maybe we should be worrying more about the
growing influence of Christians in politics than about any perceived
decadence.

Old Dude
08-16-2007, 06:19 PM
http://supak.com/images/posters/Animal_House_Belushi_Toga.jpg

Bronco Bob
08-16-2007, 06:20 PM
http://supak.com/images/posters/Animal_House_Belushi_Toga.jpg

Fatius Assius.

Rohirrim
08-16-2007, 09:31 PM
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/4/4c/Biggus.jpg
Fwee Wodwick!