Christian Bootcamp= Drag Kids behind cars

[Spider]

http://rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chron.com% 2Fdisp%2Fstory.mpl%2Fmetropolitan%2F5045830.html
Houston & Texas News

Aug. 11, 2007, 12:47AM
Pastor accused of dragging girl behind his van
A trainer also faces charges in incident at boot camp

By JEORGE ZARAZUA
San Antonio Express-news
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A San Antonio pastor and an employee of his Christian boot camp were arrested Friday on aggravated assault charges, accused of dragging a girl behind a van after she failed to keep up during a running exercise.

Investigators with the Nueces County Sheriff's Office arrested Charles E. Flowers, 46, shortly before noon at the Faith Outreach Center in northwest San Antonio, said Brad E. Bailey, a spokesman for the Schertz Police Department.

Bailey said boot camp trainer Stephanie Bassitt, 20, was later arrested without incident at her home in Kirby.

Flowers and Bassitt each were being held on $100,000 bail at the Nueces County Jail in Corpus Christi.

Girl alleges second assault
Authorities said both Flowers and Bassitt restrained the girl June 12, tying her to the back of a van with a piece of rope before dragging her on her stomach at the Love Demonstrated Ministries' boot camp in Banquete, about 10 miles west of Corpus Christi.

Schertz police assisted Nueces County authorities in the arrests because the camp's orientation sessions are held in Schertz, and the 15-year-old girl claimed she was assaulted there, too.

Bailey said the second assault claim was turned over to the Comal County district attorney's office, which hasn't said if any criminal charges will result.

He said the assault described as having occurred in Schertz isn't as severe as the dragging claim out of Nueces County.

"Obviously force was used, but the big question is whether or not it exceeded the force permitted by the parents," Bailey said, adding camp officials said they had permission slips from parents that allowed them to discipline their children.

Flowers declined to comment on the allegations Friday, evading reporters outside the offices of the Faith Outreach Center.

Scrapes and bruises
Authorities interviewed on Friday could not say how far the teenager was allegedly dragged. Her mother complained to authorities after boot camp personnel took her daughter to get treated for scrapes and bruises on her stomach, legs and arms.

Flowers, a retired U.S. Air Force instructor, holds the title of commandant of the boot camp he has operated with his wife, Janice, since the mid-1990s, states the camp's Web site.

The camp was created to "reinstill the values that have been lost in our society for a couple of generations, values such as discipline, morality, unity and integrity."

Exempt from regulation
Last year, Love Demonstrated Ministries reported private and government contributions totaling $314,673 to operate the boot camp, with nearly 89 percent of the costs, $278,549, going for salaries.

Associate pastors at the Faith Outreach Center couldn't be reached for comment Friday.

Patrick Crimmins, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, said it "appeared that this operation is probably exempt from our regulation."

He said for a camp to be licensed, it needed to operate longer than 11 weeks.

The camp in Nueces County only lasts 32 days.

jzarazua@express-news.net

[Spider]

well Angry LLama , I am sure this is well within the guidelines of Christian Bootcamp.......

[Spider]

WWJD ?= Who would Jesus Drag ...........

[Spider]

Gives brand new meaning to the term .........Following Jesus

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Gives brand new meaning to the term .........Following Jesus

ROFL!

[BroncoBuff]

Flowers and Bassitt each were being held on $100,000 bail at the Nueces County Jail in Corpus Christi.
Corpus Christi = Body of Christ hmmm...

[smalltowngrll]

Honestly, I don't think when people stand before God that the excuse that Joe Schmoe did this or that made me not believe in Him will be sufficient.

Unfortunately, Christians are just as imperfect as you are and as I am.

I always remember that if I'm going to call someone else a hypocrite, that I'm just as much of one, too! Not perfect. But, neither is anyone else.

Ok, exit stage left...not sure why I walked into this forum in the first place! :)

[BroncoBuff]

No no ... that was a very good post. More Christians should be as self-examining as you are. The same recurring problem I have with many Christians - especially fundamentalits - is that they do not look in the mirror, they are often self-righteous without examination.

[orangeatheist]

Christians are just as imperfect as you are and as I am.

I've never understood this. Quite a ringing endorsement for how the religion "changes" a person, isn't it?

[Spider]

Honestly, I don't think when people stand before God that the excuse that Joe Schmoe did this or that made me not believe in Him will be sufficient.

Unfortunately, Christians are just as imperfect as you are and as I am.

I always remember that if I'm going to call someone else a hypocrite, that I'm just as much of one, too! Not perfect. But, neither is anyone else.

Ok, exit stage left...not sure why I walked into this forum in the first place! :)

you know I understand this ,but there is common sense factor also.... would it be ok for me to let my kids go hungry while I am dropping 400.00 at a bar ? then claim I am not perfect ?
I might be a heathen , but I have yet to drag someone behind a car .......

[smalltowngrll]

I've never understood this. Quite a ringing endorsement for how the religion "changes" a person, isn't it?

Yes, it is supposed to change a person. But, it changes the person inside. Noone is perfect and everyone is human and faces the same things. Being a Christian doesn't change the difficulties that I will face. It does, however, give Christians a different perspective within themselves. Does it make them better? No, I don't believe so. It just gives me some guidelines in my morals and principles that I choose to live by. Will I contradict myself on occasion? I wish I could say that I was always a perfect person and that I abided by absolutely every law in the Bible. But, I'm not perfect and I've broken more laws than I probably know of (and I guarantee you that I'll break more of them). However, for me, that's where my faith comes in. I have forgiveness from Him.

There are many Christians that do things wrongly in the name of God. There are many Mormon's, JW's, Athiests, Agnostics, or whatever, that do things in the name of their faith in whatever or faith in nothing, and it's just as wrong. This is what works for me and if asked, I'll share. Only because it has greatly effected my life in a positive way. If I share and someone chooses not to believe it, then that's their choice. I'll still respect them as a person.

[smalltowngrll]

you know I understand this ,but there is common sense factor also.... would it be ok for me to let my kids go hungry while I am dropping 400.00 at a bar ? then claim I am not perfect ?
I might be a heathen , but I have yet to drag someone behind a car .......

Spider...I completely agree with you. I'm in no way trying to make an excuse for this behaviour. It's wrong. There is NO question about it.

[Spider]

Spider...I completely agree with you. I'm in no way trying to make an excuse for this behaviour. It's wrong. There is NO question about it.

;D this thread served a purpose though , I am trying not to bash on christians , live and let live , but I was told that militant Christianity is the thing of the past... I am trying to respect other peoples beliefs ....... not easy for a person that has never walked on eggshells to not to offend someone ....... But there is a guy that trucks with the same company I do , Christian , But he has my respect ..............so I am trying to afford others the same courtesy I do him ....

[BroncoBuff]

The only thing that makes this story even slightly newsworthy is that it happened at a Christian camp.

Good Christians all know they are sinners ... they know it. But this latter-day TV-Evangelizing generation of Christians comes off so self-righteous that such behavior in a Christian camp is newsworthy (marginally). 'Scrapes and bruises' is all? Doesn't sound like much 'dragging' occurred really.

[Spider]

The only thing that makes this story even slightly newsworthy is that it happened at a Christian camp.

Good Christians all know they are sinners ... they know it. But this latter-day TV-Evangelizing generation of Christians comes off so self-righteous that such behavior in a Christian camp is newsworthy (marginally). 'Scrapes and bruises' is all? Doesn't sound like much 'dragging' occurred really.

Dude ..... Dont agree with you on this ...... Dragging a kid 1 foot tied up to a car is completely unacceptable , and if had been my Daughter , that bastard and that bitch , would be thankfull the law caught up with em instead of me ........ Dragging a kid tied up to a car 1 foot is 1 foot too much ........

[Los Broncos]

This makes it more tough to like Christians to me.

[REB]

Well they are "Christians" in name only and are not following the teachings of Christ. Christ taught love. These people sure as hell don't know anything about love if they're willing to drag a kid behind a car.

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

[Spider]

Well they are "Christians" in name only and are not following the teachings of Christ. Christ taught love. These people sure as hell don't know anything about love if they're willing to drag a kid behind a car.



oh come on you have drug a kid or 2 with the ole F150 ;D

[REB]

oh come on you have drug a kid or 2 with the ole F150 ;D


Nah, I couldn't get the damn Ford to start. Surprise! ;D

[Spider]

Nah, I couldn't get the damn Ford to start. Surprise! ;D

Reb= off the christmas card list for that remark

[REB]

Reb= off the christmas card list for that remark


Fine. I guess you want be needing this for Christmas then...

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/REB65/hottieElecktra3.jpg

;D

[smalltowngrll]

Fine. I guess you want be needing this for Christmas then...

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/REB65/hottieElecktra3.jpg

;D

Dang, REB...where you find that pic of me! ;) hahah, J/K


Spider, honestly, if it were my daughter, I'd be there right with ya. They'd better be thankful the law caught up with them before me. Only cause I play both parental roles....they'd have to deal with both mom and dad roles with me!

[REB]

[QUOTE=smalltowngrll;1673674]Dang, REB...where you find that pic of me! ;) hahah, J/K
QUOTE]


I've got my ways ;) :kiss:

[orangeatheist]

Yes, it is supposed to change a person. But, it changes the person inside.

And these changes aren’t visible to anyone else? What sort of “inside changes” occur that have no outward appearance?


Noone is perfect and everyone is human and faces the same things. Being a Christian doesn't change the difficulties that I will face. It does, however, give Christians a different perspective within themselves. Does it make them better? No, I don't believe so. It just gives me some guidelines in my morals and principles that I choose to live by.

Such as?


Will I contradict myself on occasion? I wish I could say that I was always a perfect person and that I abided by absolutely every law in the Bible. But, I'm not perfect and I've broken more laws than I probably know of (and I guarantee you that I'll break more of them). However, for me, that's where my faith comes in. I have forgiveness from Him.

Why do you need that forgiveness?


There are many Christians that do things wrongly in the name of God. There are many Mormon's, JW's, Athiests, Agnostics, or whatever, that do things in the name of their faith in whatever or faith in nothing, and it's just as wrong.

I see. And how do you know what you’ve done is wrong? What is “wrong”?


This is what works for me and if asked, I'll share. Only because it has greatly effected my life in a positive way. If I share and someone chooses not to believe it, then that's their choice. I'll still respect them as a person.

That’s very nice of you. And courageous. I look forward to your response to my post.

[smalltowngrll]

Although your questions do not appear to be asked out of genuine curiosity, but more to poke fun of or for an argument, I'll answer anyway. These questions and answers are completely off topic from this thread, however.

And these changes aren’t visible to anyone else? What sort of “inside changes” occur that have no outward appearance?

Of course they have outward appearances. But, what one chooses to do outwardly is because of what happens inwardly. Doesn't any person that goes through something significant in their own life (ie: midlife crisis, tragedy, death, conversion to any belief, etc.) which has an impact on them on the inside make changes in their own life outwardly?

Such as?

What morals and standards do I live by? Well, I suppose you could sum them up in just one little saying: Love and treat others as I'd want to be treated. Have I failed in this? Yes. Will I fail in the future? Yes.




Why do you need that forgiveness?
I think you already know what Christianity beliefs are and I know I've seen you have this discussion with others. Do I really need to explain it to you again?



I see. And how do you know what you’ve done is wrong? What is “wrong”?

What is wrong? I love this question. It's supposed to cause me to question reality and authority. However, I guess I ask you this question: Is murder wrong? Is rape wrong? In the response you want, the answer would be no. But, you and I both know those are both "wrong". Not to mention, if there really is no "wrong", then this thread would never even be here.



That’s very nice of you. And courageous. I look forward to your response to my post.

Courageous? Nice? I sense a tone of disdain there. But, It's just written words, so how can I tell? Nonetheless, you have your answers. Reality is, you aren't going to change my beliefs and I won't change yours. Why do you feel compelled to belittle someone for their beliefs? You are doing the exact thing you hate from most Christians. Rather ironic, though.

[BABronco]

I've never understood this. Quite a ringing endorsement for how the religion "changes" a person, isn't it?

even with religion a person is still a person

[epicSocialism4tw]

It sucks that they used junior high football-esque motivational techniques and that they worked out as badly as they always do (my coaches did worse to me), but posting this article under the premise that this is somehow representative of Jesus is missing the mark.

You can gripe and complain about these people all you want, but nothing that you will ever say will be able to tarnish Jesus in the least.

[TheDave]

It sucks that they used junior high football-esque motivational techniques and that they worked out as badly as they always do (my coaches did worse to me)

I've been involved in coaching kids off and on for quite a few years... I've yet to see anything even close to tying a kid to the back of a car and dragging him/her. Thats not football-esque thats POW-esque.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I've been involved in coaching kids off and on for quite a few years... I've yet to see anything even close to tying a kid to the back of a car and dragging him/her. Thats not football-esque thats POW-esque.


All that the article says is that an adolescent was tied to a vehicle, asked to run behind it, and eventually dragged. It does not tell us anything of the context, it does not tell us whether or not the adolescent was injured, whether or not they consented, it tells us nothing other than that they were "dragged" whatever that means.

There is only one reason that you would leave those important details out. That is to push controversy with an angle that catches guys like Spider who dont need to know any details to be taken hook line and sinker by this kind of stuff.

[TheDave]

All that the article says is that an adolescent was tied to a vehicle, asked to run behind it, and eventually dragged. It does not tell us anything of the context, it does not tell us whether or not the adolescent was injured, whether or not they consented, it tells us nothing other than that they were "dragged" whatever that means.

There is only one reason that you would leave those important details out. That is to push controversy with an angle that catches guys like Spider who dont need to know any details to be taken hook line and sinker by this kind of stuff.


1st... and adolescent can not "consent" to be tied behind a car. Give me a break, you know better than that.

2nd... yes we do know that the adolescent was injured.

Authorities interviewed on Friday could not say how far the teenager was allegedly dragged. Her mother complained to authorities after boot camp personnel took her daughter to get treated for scrapes and bruises on her stomach, legs and arms

3rd... the only thing i had any comment on was you position that these idiots were engaging in "Football-esque" tactics, and that your coaches had done worse to you.

again tying a young girl to a car and eventually dragging her is not the work of a coaching tactic or a "christian" for that manner... it's the work of an asshole who unfortunately wrapped himself in the bible before abusing these kids.

[BroncoBuff]

Dude ..... Dont agree with you on this ...... Dragging a kid 1 foot tied up to a car is completely unacceptable , and if had been my Daughter , that bastard and that b**** , would be thankfull the law caught up with em instead of me ........ Dragging a kid tied up to a car 1 foot is 1 foot too much ........
No, it is WAY wrong.

What I meant was, the injuries were quite minor, so the only reason it was newsworthy enough to be reported on Yahoo is because it was at a Christian camp. Born-agains exude so much self-righteousness, that such a despicable act fairly screams hypocrisy. If a boy scout leader for example had got p.o.'d at a kid and done the same thing, we never wouldda heard about it.

The Christian hypocrisy factor is such a strange, strange dynamic. True Christians - the ideal Christian following in Jesus' footsteps - is hyper-aware that he is a sinner and should never judge others. But these neo-Christians - these fundamentalist Christians - they seem to have skipped those chapters in the gospels.

[Spider]

It sucks that they used junior high football-esque motivational techniques and that they worked out as badly as they always do (my coaches did worse to me), but posting this article under the premise that this is somehow representative of Jesus is missing the mark.

You can gripe and complain about these people all you want, but nothing that you will ever say will be able to tarnish Jesus in the least.

I thought it was a sin to bull**** ?
I come from an abusive home , never been drug behind a car ............
one ass beating I remember , mom kicked me in the nuts , hit me with a coffee cup in the head , then proceeded to stomp on my chest , and face ...... but never drug me behind a car .....But that was the first and last time I called my mom a bitch ........

[orangeatheist]

Although your questions do not appear to be asked out of genuine curiosity, but more to poke fun of or for an argument, I'll answer anyway.

You’ve no idea what my intentions are but nonetheless take a stab at me.

Why would you do that? Is this how you want others to treat you? What conclusions should I draw about you from this opening attack?


These questions and answers are completely off topic from this thread, however.

Then open a different thread if you wish to have the discussion moved or simply tell me you don’t think this is the appropriate place to answer them.


Of course they have outward appearances. But, what one chooses to do outwardly is because of what happens inwardly. Doesn't any person that goes through something significant in their own life (ie: midlife crisis, tragedy, death, conversion to any belief, etc.) which has an impact on them on the inside make changes in their own life outwardly?

I would have thought so. But you said, “Christians are just as imperfect as you are and as I am.” To which I responded, “I've never understood this. Quite a ringing endorsement for how the religion ‘changes’ a person, isn't it?" And then you replied, “Yes, it is supposed to change a person. But, it changes the person inside.” That implied, of course, that the changes could not be seen on the outside of a person. That’s why I started to get confused by your position.

My point is, if Christianity can’t make a person better than average Joe six-pack (i.e., “Christians are just as imperfect…”) then why sign up? That’s what I meant by “not a ringing endorsement.” If you had said, “Christians work at being better than others –in compassion, in charity, in love—but they sometimes fall short. Not even Christians are perfectly perfect” I may not have sat up and taken notice. But that isn’t what you said. You merely equated Christians with everyone else.

Consider: Tide! The Laundry Detergent That Isn’t Any Better Than the Leading Competitor!

Do you follow?

Either Christianity really does make people better than everyone else (just as Tide cleans clothes better than the nearest competitor), or what is its use? Why not be a Buddhist or a Hindu instead? (Why buy Tide when it doesn’t clean any better than Cheer?)


What morals and standards do I live by? Well, I suppose you could sum them up in just one little saying: Love and treat others as I'd want to be treated. Have I failed in this? Yes. Will I fail in the future? Yes.

That’s lovely and commendable. Why do you think this is a good idea?


I think you already know what Christianity beliefs are and I know I've seen you have this discussion with others. Do I really need to explain it to you again?

Why are you being difficult? You started this reply being completely defensive? Why?

If you live by the “one little saying”: Love and treat others as you’d want to be [loved and] treated, is this how you would want someone to answer one of your questions?

I asked in response to your confession that you make mistakes and break rules but even in spite of these errors that you are “forgiven by Him”, why you need that forgiveness. Now, I may be a bit weird, but there’s a saying (one among many) that I live by: If someone asks you a direct question, answer them directly.


What is wrong? I love this question. It's supposed to cause me to question reality and authority.

Why are you so suspicious? I can honestly tell you that my question on how you determine “right” from “wrong” is not meant to get you to question reality and authority. I’m looking for how you determine right from wrong. My intention is in the question. I’m not certain how you are going to respond so I asked the question. I have a hunch what your answer might be (and, if I’m right, there are other questions to follow) but I don’t know you. You might have different ideas than what I suppose and I’m not going to judge you before I get to know you. I’m going to let you speak for yourself.


However, I guess I ask you this question: Is murder wrong? Is rape wrong? In the response you want, the answer would be no. But, you and I both know those are both "wrong". Not to mention, if there really is no "wrong", then this thread would never even be here.

You didn’t really answer my question. But let’s use your examples as a way to try and move the discussion forward (if you so desire). How do you know murder is wrong? How do you know rape is wrong?


Courageous? Nice? I sense a tone of disdain there.

I seriously wonder what your problem is. Why are you so defensive? I genuinely think anyone who is willing to discuss their sacred and cherished beliefs with someone else is courageous. And, until now, you seem like a nice person. I may have to retract that. You might still be nice, but you are extremely suspicious and cynical.


But, It's just written words, so how can I tell?

Exactly. So in the spirit of the saying you like to live by, why don’t you restrict yourself from passing judgment on others when you don’t know them? Unless, of course, you like people to pass judgment on you without them knowing you very well…


Nonetheless, you have your answers. Reality is, you aren't going to change my beliefs and I won't change yours.

I’m just trying to understand your beliefs, not change them. But I thought you might like to explore your ideas with me (you had stated, “This is what works for me and if asked, I'll share.” So, I asked you to share). If you don’t want to do so, I’d understand. You merely need to say so.


Why do you feel compelled to belittle someone for their beliefs?

Can you point out the instance when I belittled your beliefs? If you can’t, I suspect your dictum of treating others as you would like to be treated compels you to offer me an apology.


You are doing the exact thing you hate from most Christians. Rather ironic, though.

What I am I doing that I hate from most Christians? Please be specific.

[orangeatheist]

even with religion a person is still a person

Even with Tide a stain is still a stain.

So why buy Tide? Especially when it claims it can do all those miraculous things?


By their fruits...

Ephesians 4:17-24
Now this I affirm and insist on in the Lord: you must no longer live as the Gentiles live, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of their ignorance and hardness of heart. They have lost all sensitivity and have abandoned themselves to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. That is not the way you learned Christ! For surely you have heard about him and were taught in him, as truth is in Jesus. You were taught to put away your former way of life, your old self, corrupt and deluded by its lusts, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to clothe yourselves with the new self, created according to the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:8-10
But now you must get rid of all such things: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive language from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have stripped off the old self with its practices and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator.

2 Corinthians 5:17
...if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!

A person is still a person? Not exactly what the Bible teaches. A person in Christ in no longer just a person. He or she is a "new creation."

Besides, if a Christian is just as imperfect as the next fella, how are we to judge his product?

2 Corinthians 5:20
...we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us;

[Bronco Bob]

Even with Tide a stain is still a stain.

So why buy Tide? Especially when it claims it can do all those miraculous things?


Actually I have found the Tide does seem to get my clothes cleaner than other
brands. Some of the other brands tend to leave a detergent residue but
Tide seems to rinse out better.

[gunns]

Patrick Crimmins, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, said it "appeared that this operation is probably exempt from our regulation."

And right above it it says: Last year, Love Demonstrated Ministries reported private and government contributions totaling $314,673 to operate the boot camp, with nearly 89 percent of the costs, $278,549, going for salaries.


Two questions. Since when does the government contribute to anything. And wouldn't that "contribution" mean they would have to follow the regulations? Just wonder.

[orangeatheist]

Actually I have found the Tide does seem to get my clothes cleaner than other
brands. Some of the other brands tend to leave a detergent residue but
Tide seems to rinse out better.

Now, see? That's better! :thumbs:

[Bob]

;D this thread served a purpose though , I am trying not to bash on christians , live and let live , but I was told that militant Christianity is the thing of the past... I am trying to respect other peoples beliefs ....... not easy for a person that has never walked on eggshells to not to offend someone ....... But there is a guy that trucks with the same company I do , Christian , But he has my respect ..............so I am trying to afford others the same courtesy I do him ....

Anytime religions try to impose belief by the threat of physical harm, (or actual harm in this case) that by definition is evil. Spider, are you sharing this story to point out that some "Christians" are militant? If so, point well taken -- and if they were in my neighborhood I would standup to them and what they did -- as would most courageous decent human beings. As far as those that are not changed by faith in Christ and still would do something of this level, it goes beyond the idea that “well, we are all imperfect.” Although this is a true statement, but when actions appear to be opposite of the Savior’s words, and yet one claims to be following Him, that be definition makes one a hypocrite.

Those very few that think that all religions promote hatred, or that NT testament based faiths promote violence, that ARE ROOTED in the NT, may be driven by something themselves and are pushed off base. You will always have groups that enforce their opinion by the sword, if they are given the power -- Please don’t think Christ would put his stamp of approval on such actions... unless many Christians (or 26% of them :welcome: ) use violence as their primary method to influence others (at least the Savior that I attempt to emulate would see these actions as how we all see them – evil.)

[Bob]

Honestly, I don't think when people stand before God that the excuse that Joe Schmoe did this or that made me not believe in Him will be sufficient.

Unfortunately, Christians are just as imperfect as you are and as I am.

I always remember that if I'm going to call someone else a hypocrite, that I'm just as much of one, too! Not perfect. But, neither is anyone else.

Ok, exit stage left...not sure why I walked into this forum in the first place! :)

The stage left may be a more holy place to stand...sadly what will happen next are a series of questions asking to quantify to all of your statements.

[Bob]

Even with Tide a stain is still a stain.

So why buy Tide? Especially when it claims it can do all those miraculous things?


By their fruits...

Ephesians 4:17-24
Now this I affirm and insist on in the Lord: you must no longer live as the Gentiles live, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of their ignorance and hardness of heart. They have lost all sensitivity and have abandoned themselves to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. That is not the way you learned Christ! For surely you have heard about him and were taught in him, as truth is in Jesus. You were taught to put away your former way of life, your old self, corrupt and deluded by its lusts, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to clothe yourselves with the new self, created according to the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:8-10
But now you must get rid of all such things: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive language from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have stripped off the old self with its practices and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator.

2 Corinthians 5:17
...if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!

A person is still a person? Not exactly what the Bible teaches. A person in Christ in no longer just a person. He or she is a "new creation."

Besides, if a Christian is just as imperfect as the next fella, how are we to judge his product?

2 Corinthians 5:20
...we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us;

Thus evidence that these folks were not converted to Christ, but only claimed to be. "by thier fruits ye shall know them."

[orangeatheist]

Thus evidence that these folks were not converted to Christ, but only claimed to be. "by thier fruits ye shall know them."

Thanks for seeing my point, Bob! :welcome:

Anytime religions try to impose belief by the threat of physical harm, (or actual harm in this case) that by definition is evil.

How about by mental harm? (ooo...you should see where this is going and get off the tracks, quick!) :wiggle:

[RaiderH8r]

well Angry LLama , I am sure this is well within the guidelines of Christian Bootcamp.......

In Montana that was just part of our two a day football training. I don't know how you pansies in Wyoming did it, but I'm pretty sure it's why we keep thumping your arses in the border wars. You grow pansies?

[RaiderH8r]

Fine. I guess you want be needing this for Christmas then...

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/REB65/hottieElecktra3.jpg

;D

"Daddy, why are my presents all sticky?"

[alkemical]

Gives brand new meaning to the term .........Following Jesus

WWJD ?= Who would Jesus Drag ...........




lol

[BABronco]

Even with Tide a stain is still a stain.

So why buy Tide? Especially when it claims it can do all those miraculous things?


By their fruits...

Ephesians 4:17-24
Now this I affirm and insist on in the Lord: you must no longer live as the Gentiles live, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of their ignorance and hardness of heart. They have lost all sensitivity and have abandoned themselves to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. That is not the way you learned Christ! For surely you have heard about him and were taught in him, as truth is in Jesus. You were taught to put away your former way of life, your old self, corrupt and deluded by its lusts, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to clothe yourselves with the new self, created according to the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:8-10
But now you must get rid of all such things: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive language from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have stripped off the old self with its practices and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator.

2 Corinthians 5:17
...if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!

A person is still a person? Not exactly what the Bible teaches. A person in Christ in no longer just a person. He or she is a "new creation."

Besides, if a Christian is just as imperfect as the next fella, how are we to judge his product?

2 Corinthians 5:20
...we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us;

thats odd i don't see where it says a person isnt a person any longer. Thank you for proving my point. It says there is a new creation. Do you see there is a new perfect creation.

Everything old has passed away. Everything becomes new. So when you get a new pair of shoes do they stay new forever? Do they never get scuffed?

There one thing I really don't get. If you don't believe something at all why do you spend so much time arguing about it? Why would you waste your precious time on Earth if death is just rotting six feet under?

[orangeatheist]

thats odd i don't see where it says a person isnt a person any longer. Thank you for proving my point. It says there is a new creation. Do you see there is a new perfect creation.

No, not right there. But Matthew 5:48 sure asks you to be such: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Forgive me; I always liked the KJ version of that verse best.)


Everything old has passed away. Everything becomes new. So when you get a new pair of shoes do they stay new forever? Do they never get scuffed?

And that's why you buy new shoes. So, what your analogy is arguing is that Christianity can change you for a while, but given time it will dirty up and be just as nasty and grimey as everything else. Dump it. Get a new philosophy when it's worn out.

Again, not a ringing endorsement, eh?


There one thing I really don't get. If you don't believe something at all why do you spend so much time arguing about it?

Because people will argue back. And I think that's fun. Also gives me insight in to how others think. Sharpens my own skills. Exposes any weaknesses in my thinking so I can examine it more deeply and reject it if it's flawed or find more support for it if I'd overlooked that support previously. Think of it as philsophical/intellectual exercise.


Why would you waste your precious time on Earth if death is just rotting six feet under?

I don't waste it. I enjoy what I do.

Ecclesiastes 8:15: So I commend enjoyment, for there is nothing better for people under the sun than to eat, and drink, and enjoy themselves, for this will go with them in their toil through the days of life that God gives them under the sun.

My question to you is similar, however: Why waste your precious time on earth believing in a religious fairy tale?

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20: For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

[BABronco]

No, not right there. But Matthew 5:48 sure asks you to be such: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Forgive me; I always liked the KJ version of that verse best.)



And that's why you buy new shoes. So, what your analogy is arguing is that Christianity can change you for a while, but given time it will dirty up and be just as nasty and grimey as everything else. Dump it. Get a new philosophy when it's worn out.

Again, not a ringing endorsement, eh?



Because people will argue back. And I think that's fun. Also gives me insight in to how others think. Sharpens my own skills. Exposes any weaknesses in my thinking so I can examine it more deeply and reject it if it's flawed or find more support for it if I'd overlooked that support previously. Think of it as philsophical/intellectual exercise.



I don't waste it. I enjoy what I do.

Ecclesiastes 8:15: So I commend enjoyment, for there is nothing better for people under the sun than to eat, and drink, and enjoy themselves, for this will go with them in their toil through the days of life that God gives them under the sun.

My question to you is similar, however: Why waste your precious time on earth believing in a religious fairy tale?

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20: For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

The new shoes analogy does work. When a person is one fire for Christ they have a new pair of shoes... shoes get scuffed (life gets difficult) and some just go numb instead of embracing the challenge like we are told James 1:2-3 2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.

And more 1 peter 4:12-13 12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

Hopefully, someone will come along and get this person and new pair of shoes and get them on fire for Christ again. However, the strongest of Christians turn to Christ when things get the hardest.. and when they are the best they can possibly be.

[REB]

The new shoes analogy does work. When a person is one fire for Christ they have a new pair of shoes... shoes get scuffed (life gets difficult) and some just go numb instead of embracing the challenge like we are told James 1:2-3 2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.

And more 1 peter 4:12-13 12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

Hopefully, someone will come along and get this person and new pair of shoes and get them on fire for Christ again. However, the strongest of Christians turn to Christ when things get the hardest.. and when they are the best they can possibly be.



Beautiful scriptures man :thumbsup:

[orangenblue2]

When a person is on fire for Christ...

Awesome, that could be a t-shirt slogan...I'm dreaming up the graphics as I type this...BA, maybe we could be partners? Ah...I'm just kidding around...Although a new slogan just came to me, "I've got wood for the cross!"

PS - Easy "believers", I just thought I'd inject some humor...:peace:

[bronco_diesel]

orangeathiest - hope you don't mind if i offer up some input on this. i think you have a very good question here-


I would have thought so. But you said, “Christians are just as imperfect as you are and as I am.” To which I responded, “I've never understood this. Quite a ringing endorsement for how the religion ‘changes’ a person, isn't it?" And then you replied, “Yes, it is supposed to change a person. But, it changes the person inside.” That implied, of course, that the changes could not be seen on the outside of a person. That’s why I started to get confused by your position.

followers of Christ, and I will say true followers of Christ understand that we are far from perfect. we cannot escape that reality nor should we try – to do so would be disingenuous. it’s the heart of what we know to be true. however, the change you refer to should be witnessed. a believer in Christ should change over time. the change is not going to be that of suddenly your perfect and now become super human christian man. rather it is a sanctification process where we ultimately try to conform Christ – who was completely unselfish. I reach a point that I esteem others higher than myself. it’s not natural which is why we also realize that it’s a continual work in progress. we will slip up and make mistakes – but we should not be known by those mistakes.

you should be able to witness the love of a true believer – they should shine in a way that causes you to wonder what they got. why would someone go so out of their way to help someone else type of thing.

in our culture many who claim to be christian do not truly fit this – their attitudes and behavior often times don’t separate them from the local frat house or night club. this is why I believe Christ said in the end many will come in his name and he will say away from me.

in a nutshell, if there is a true inward conversion, there should be outward evidence. we are imperfect, but we cannot let that be an excuse for doing something we know to be wrong.


My point is, if Christianity can’t make a person better than average Joe six-pack (i.e., “Christians are just as imperfect…”) then why sign up? That’s what I meant by “not a ringing endorsement.” If you had said, “Christians work at being better than others –in compassion, in charity, in love—but they sometimes fall short. Not even Christians are perfectly perfect” I may not have sat up and taken notice. But that isn’t what you said. You merely equated Christians with everyone else.

the reason you sign up is because it is the total realization of truly how imperfect we are and how far we fall from the throne of God. to come back to a true relationship with God we need Him to tell us how to do it – and He has through his son.

signing up is the understanding that God has atoned for our wrong doings upon himself and is giving us a free gift – His righteousness so we may have a relationship with him. the reason I will never become a Buddhist or anything other than a follower of Christ is because I know there is only forgiveness through the work of Christ. it’s paramount to understanding Christ.

[orangeatheist]

The new shoes analogy does work.

I beg to differ. I don’t think it works at all. At least not in the way you intend it.


When a person is one fire for Christ they have a new pair of shoes...

When a person goes to Payless, they get a new pair of shoes.


…shoes get scuffed (life gets difficult)

Shoes get scuffed (the life of a shoe is difficult and short)


and some just go numb instead of embracing the challenge like we are told James 1:2-3

Old, scuffed shoes cannot face new challenges. They simply are too worn to do so.


Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.

Shoes cannot feel joy or develop perseverance. They simply get old and fall apart.

Besides, where, in this verse, does it say anything about getting worn out like a pair of shoes? It talks merely about facing challenges bravely and as an opportunity for growing in faith. Far from being “scuffed,” this passage claims that rough times actually does the opposite of tearing down faith or wearing a Christian down. It claims that trials will actually build up the Christian; making that Christian even stronger. The opposite of what happens to aging shoes.


And more 1 peter 4:12-13 12Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

Same thing here. You analogy with old shoes is extremely poor. These passages talk about trials and tribulations actually being met with joy and expectation. They certainly do not imply that the faithful will grow worn and need to be exchanged.


Hopefully, someone will come along and get this person and new pair of shoes

You equated “new shoes” with the new person that comes from accepting Christ. I had quoted passages from the New Testament that explained what happened to a person when they accepted Christ. Those quotes said, “put away your former way of life, your old self, corrupt and deluded by its lusts, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to clothe yourselves with the new self, created according to the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness”, “you have stripped off the old self with its practices and have clothed yourselves with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator”, and “if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!”

The passages are very clear in that the person becomes new. The passages you quote don’t say the person will begin to revert back into their old self and then need to be renewed in Christ again…and again, and again, and again. It’s the opposite of entropy. These passages clearly imply that the old self is shed and the person becomes new.


and get them on fire for Christ again. However, the strongest of Christians turn to Christ when things get the hardest.. and when they are the best they can possibly be.

Sure, when times get hard the faithful turn to Christ, but how is that “wearing out a shoe”?

I know what you’re trying to say, but your analogy is faulty. Shoes (which you equate with the “new self in Christ”) wear out. They aren’t renewed. You toss them for a new pair (and in all likelihood, a different pair of a different style). If we’re going to stretch that analogy, what it means is that the new self in Christ wears out and a new self has to be purchased again and again and again as life’s challenges keep wearing out the “selves.” And, in some cases, the new self will be Christian, in others it will be a different “style” of faith and be Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc.

My opinion, I just think you made a crappy analogy.

Still, Bob understood what I was saying. Claiming that you can’t determine a Christian from anyone else other than the fact that they wear “God’s Gym” t-shirts and buy Kent Hovind videos isn’t really a ringing endorsement of the religion. If Christianity doesn’t actually make a person better than his fellows, what is its point? I think a Christian should boldly claim that Christianity has made them a better person, that they are mindful of others, more loving, more charitable, more sensitive than the average Joe. Just the way Tide claims to be a better product than its leading competitor. I’m just saying if you’re a Christian you should be proud (but not arrogant) of your faith. Stand up for it. Claim it for what you believe it is: the best of all possible worldviews and a force to change hearts and minds for the better.

Sell it! Don't hide your light under a bushel!

[orangeatheist]

orangeathiest - hope you don't mind if i offer up some input on this. i think you have a very good question here-

By all means! Thanks for you opinions!


followers of Christ, and I will say true followers of Christ understand that we are far from perfect. we cannot escape that reality nor should we try – to do so would be disingenuous. it’s the heart of what we know to be true. however, the change you refer to should be witnessed. a believer in Christ should change over time.

Exactly. So, saying “a person is still a person” makes it sound like a Christian person is just like a Hindu person, or a Muslim person, or an atheist person. That isn’t true, is it? If it were, what’s the point? And if a Christian remains just as imperfect as the day he became a Christian, again I’d ask: What’s the point?

If, however, a Christian changes from Average-Joe-Six-Pack “over time”, to be less imperfect and, indeed, a better more perfect person (“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect”, right?) then I could see the appeal of the religion. I hope you see what I’m trying to say.


the change is not going to be that of suddenly your perfect and now become super human christian man. rather it is a sanctification process where we ultimately try to conform Christ – who was completely unselfish. I reach a point that I esteem others higher than myself. it’s not natural which is why we also realize that it’s a continual work in progress. we will slip up and make mistakes – but we should not be known by those mistakes.

Romans 6:3-4, 6-8, 11-12, 14-18

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For whoever has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

…consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and that you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

You are talking a luke-warm Christianity that I don’t think is implied in Paul’s writings, or anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, it was this very “back sliding” that Paul writes so vigorously against. In my opinion, he almost seems confused that others cannot remain as dedicated as he is. Being in Christ creates a new self and that new self is no longer a slave to sin but instead, because through faith the believer has suffered the death and resurrection of their old self through Christ they –like Christ—are dead to sin and alive again in righteousness. Christ never backslid. Christ never had to die over and over and over again. It was not a process to die to sin and be resurrected in righteousness. It was a one-time deal and thus those who follow Christ likewise are resurrected.

I think Christians who claim the “evolution of righteousness” are just making excuses for their own poor behavior and lack of absolute faith. Reminds me of psychics who claim that their powers don’t work when they’re being watched.


you should be able to witness the love of a true believer – they should shine in a way that causes you to wonder what they got. why would someone go so out of their way to help someone else type of thing.

Exactly. So, the believer can’t be equated with everyone else. They should stand out. Just as Tide stands out from the competition. That’s what I’m saying.


in our culture many who claim to be christian do not truly fit this – their attitudes and behavior often times don’t separate them from the local frat house or night club. this is why I believe Christ said in the end many will come in his name and he will say away from me.

Yes. Which is why I say to those who claim that Christians are “just as imperfect” as everyone else and “a person is still a person” that these statements are not exactly ringing endorsements for the religion. It’s an excuse to be a sloppy Christian.

On the other hand, saying someone isn’t a “real” Christian because they do –or don’t do—X, Y, and/or Z is committing the No True Scotsman Fallacy. It’s an interesting Catch-22. But I think the argument can be made that a “True” Christian should reflect what is outlined in the Scriptures. With that as backing, you can avoid the No True Scotsman Fallacy.


in a nutshell, if there is a true inward conversion, there should be outward evidence. we are imperfect, but we cannot let that be an excuse for doing something we know to be wrong.

Right. But wouldn’t the inward conversion pretty much prevent someone from committing imperfection? What is meant by “perfect”? And why would someone who has had a conversion continue to have moments of imperfection? Is this some sort of Last Temptation sort of deal?


the reason you sign up is because it is the total realization of truly how imperfect we are and how far we fall from the throne of God. to come back to a true relationship with God we need Him to tell us how to do it – and He has through his son.

Right. So recognition of this imperfection and acceptance of the way back (Romans 6) should free one from that imperfection, right? The servant cannot serve two masters. He is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. And, as Christ died ONCE to sin and was resurrected into righteousness, acceptance of this should carry the believer through the same death and resurrection. Why, then, the continued imperfection? What does that tell you about the “power” of conversion?


signing up is the understanding that God has atoned for our wrong doings upon himself and is giving us a free gift – His righteousness so we may have a relationship with him. the reason I will never become a Buddhist or anything other than a follower of Christ is because I know there is only forgiveness through the work of Christ. it’s paramount to understanding Christ.

That implies that you need forgiveness which is a question I asked smalltowngrl. A Buddhist, for example, may recognize the same mistakes one has made in life but believes “forgiveness” merely comes from enlightenment and changing one’s ways. There is no need for external forgiveness. Indeed, they may argue persuasively that to seek forgiveness from an outside source is to remain chained to the “sin” and ignorant of true enlightenment and escape. How are you going to say that they are wrong?

[Bob]

"Ever learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth." You spend alot of time quoting scriptures that you do not believe.

[BABronco]

I think a Christian should boldly claim that Christianity has made them a better person, that they are mindful of others, more loving, more charitable, more sensitive than the average Joe. Just the way Tide claims to be a better product than its leading competitor. I’m just saying if you’re a Christian you should be proud (but not arrogant) of your faith. Stand up for it. Claim it for what you believe it is: the best of all possible world views and a force to change hearts and minds for the better.

Sell it! Don't hide your light under a bushel!
Yeah ... analogy not as strong as it first sounded I guess. Now there are two important things I just have to know.

First, do you actually believe that?

Second, how in the world do you quote mutiple things like that? I just can't figure it out and I'm sure its something pretty obvious.

[orangeatheist]

"Ever learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Right back at 'cha!


You spend alot of time quoting scriptures that you do not believe.

First, I don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Second, know thine enemy...! ;D

Third, I spent a lot of time buried in the Scriptures. They are part of me. I would be a fool not to use them when they apply. It would be like knowing the Japanese language but not using it when speaking to a Japanese person.


Yeah ... analogy not as strong as it first sounded I guess. Now there are two important things I just have to know.

First, do you actually believe that?

Not to sound Clinton-esque, but it depends on what you mean by "that". Do you mean,

1.) Do I believe that Christians should proudly proclaim their faith when they believe that it is the best of all possible worldviews?

or

2.) Do I believe that Christianity is the best of all possible world views?

The answer to the former is "yes" and the answer to the latter is "no."


Second, how in the world do you quote mutiple things like that? I just can't figure it out and I'm sure its something pretty obvious.

By using the quote features. I typically copy the [q*uote=BABronco;12345] and then whatever text I'm responding to. I then close those words with the [/q*uote] tag (remove the asterisks). So, for example, immediately above I quoted you this way:

[Q*UOTE=BABronco;1676746]
Second, how in the world do you quote mutiple things like that? I just can't figure it out and I'm sure its something pretty obvious.[/Q*UOTE]

Again, remove the asterisks. Then, I typed my response. If you had said something else following what I just quoted and responded to, I would then do the same thing. Like this:

[Q*UOTE=BABronco;1676746]
Blah blah blah blah.[/Q*UOTE]

And then I'd type my response. And so on and so forth.

So, if you remove the asterisks from above, you'd see this:


Second, how in the world do you quote mutiple things like that? I just can't figure it out and I'm sure its something pretty obvious.

Again, remove the asterisks. Then, I typed my response. If you had said something else following what I just quoted and responded to, I would then do the same thing. Like this:


Blah blah blah blah.


Make sense?

[Bob]

Second, know thine enemy...!

If this is true, that would be the crux of the problem that I have seen --

Some of "faith" may respond to you for intellectual exercise, or to squash your ideas -- others may respond as they would have you share in something they believe can exalt and bring joy. So, you say that you don’t believe it -- fine: but the motivation that is at the core of the actions as they share their faith/words with you or others may reveal Love they have for others, not arrogance, nor the wish to destroy, but the hope of something that can be additive.

Another bizarre question – that you can answer privately – have you ever seen a being that you believed was divine?

[Spider]

Let me say this ....... I didnt mean to imply Christians think this is ok ....
Angry llama challenged me to find Militant ,Christian Groups .......
that is all this thread is intended to be ........

[BABronco]

Let me say this ....... I didnt mean to imply Christians think this is ok ....
Angry llama challenged me to find Militant ,Christian Groups .......
that is all this thread is intended to be ........

And you actually thought it would stay this way?

[Spider]

And you actually thought it would stay this way?

;D I was expecting more kick back on me , about starting a thread like this ......

[Bob]

;D I was expecting more kick back on me , about starting a thread like this ......

Ironicly, and sadly it turned into another oportunity for Christains to be asked to defend thier faith....

[Spider]

Ironicly, and sadly it turned into another oportunity for Christains to be asked to defend thier faith....

well you dont have anything else better to do tonight ;D

[Bob]

well you dont have anything else better to do tonight ;D

Nope. Now, I feel guilty and will see if I can get home to see if my kids are still up ... See ya!!!:angel:

[Spider]

Nope. Now, I feel guilty and will see if I can get home to see if my kids are still up ... See ya!!!:angel:

good night ... be safe ..I will see my kids in the morning

[orangeatheist]

Second, know thine enemy...!

If this is true, that would be the crux of the problem that I have seen --

Some of "faith" may respond to you for intellectual exercise, or to squash your ideas -- others may respond as they would have you share in something they believe can exalt and bring joy. So, you say that you don’t believe it -- fine: but the motivation that is at the core of the actions as they share their faith/words with you or others may reveal Love they have for others, not arrogance, nor the wish to destroy, but the hope of something that can be additive.

And are you implying that my motives are any less noble? Or different somehow?


Another bizarre question – that you can answer privately – have you ever seen a being that you believed was divine?

I typically don't answer anything about my worldview privately. The only things I think might be best left to PMs are things of a family or financial, or maybe medical, nature.

To answer your question, yes. At one time I believed I had an encounter with what I thought was a divine being. In fact, I had more than one such encounter and it was quite moving and motivating at the time.

Conversely, I had a mother once tell her daughter --the daughter was a girlfriend of mine at the time--that she thought I was a Saint, come again to earth to help lead mankind back to the Lord (because of who I was at the time; how I acted and what I talked about). So, in that sense, I was the one who was believed to have been divine. I didn't buy it at the time, but it certainly gave me pause. It was also rather flattering! :ouwknow: (Funny, that reminds me of something my dad griped about to my mom one day when I was fresh out of high school and struggling with what I wanted to do with my life. He said, "If that kid would apply himself to school as much as he does that Bible, he'd get somewhere!" :giggle: )

[BroncoBuff]

I've seen this episode before ... Uhh

[bronco_diesel]

By all means! Thanks for you opinions!

thanks. i love conversations such as this, so long they remain civil. so i will try to do my part :)

this is a bit long winded, so i apologize, but having seen some of your posts, well... :)

Exactly. So, saying “a person is still a person” makes it sound like a Christian person is just like a Hindu person, or a Muslim person, or an atheist person. That isn’t true, is it? If it were, what’s the point? And if a Christian remains just as imperfect as the day he became a Christian, again I’d ask: What’s the point?

If, however, a Christian changes from Average-Joe-Six-Pack “over time”, to be less imperfect and, indeed, a better more perfect person (“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect”, right?) then I could see the appeal of the religion. I hope you see what I’m trying to say.

I understand exactly what your trying to say, and I believe the Bible conveys this clearly - that a follower of Christ should present outward evidence of their faith.

matthew 5:16 (NASB)
Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven



Romans 6:3-4, 6-8, 11-12, 14-18

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For whoever has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

…consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that you, having once been slaves of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which you were entrusted, and that you, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

You are talking a luke-warm Christianity that I don’t think is implied in Paul’s writings, or anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, it was this very “back sliding” that Paul writes so vigorously against. In my opinion, he almost seems confused that others cannot remain as dedicated as he is. Being in Christ creates a new self and that new self is no longer a slave to sin but instead, because through faith the believer has suffered the death and resurrection of their old self through Christ they –like Christ—are dead to sin and alive again in righteousness. Christ never backslid. Christ never had to die over and over and over again. It was not a process to die to sin and be resurrected in righteousness. It was a one-time deal and thus those who follow Christ likewise are resurrected.

I think Christians who claim the “evolution of righteousness” are just making excuses for their own poor behavior and lack of absolute faith. Reminds me of psychics who claim that their powers don’t work when they’re being watched.

my point wasn't so much about a luke-warm christian, but the "process" of sanctification of the believer. having said that, you're comments are valid. i believe you are correct in what you state about Paul - i don't think he truly understood luke-warm christianity. either you are in or out. in the book of revelaion we see a clear picture of how the luke-warm christian is seen.

revelation 3:15
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.


As Mounce writes

‘The contrast is between the hot medicinal waters of Hierapolis and the cold, pure waters of Colossae. Thus the church in Laodicea “was providing neither refreshment for the spiritually weary, nor healing for the spiritually sick. It was totally ineffective, and thus distasteful to its Lord”...On this interpretation the church is not being called to task for its spiritual temperature but for the barrenness of its works’


Exactly. So, the believer can’t be equated with everyone else. They should stand out. Just as Tide stands out from the competition. That’s what I’m saying.


exactly. in reference to the scripture i gave earlier about letting your light shine. as a christian one area that should truly set us apart is by loving our enemy. it's easy to love those who love you, but how about showing love to someone who hates and curses you. so many of us christians fail here - we get offended or hurt, but rather we should recognize the opportunity to do what Christ commanded us:
Luke 6:27-28
But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.


Yes. Which is why I say to those who claim that Christians are “just as imperfect” as everyone else and “a person is still a person” that these statements are not exactly ringing endorsements for the religion. It’s an excuse to be a sloppy Christian.

i don't believe there is any excuse for being a sloppy christian. if you hold the name of christ as your savior, you should be very serious about following his commands.

John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Luke 6:46
46Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?


On the other hand, saying someone isn’t a “real” Christian because they do –or don’t do—X, Y, and/or Z is committing the No True Scotsman Fallacy. It’s an interesting Catch-22. But I think the argument can be made that a “True” Christian should reflect what is outlined in the Scriptures. With that as backing, you can avoid the No True Scotsman Fallacy.



Right. But wouldn’t the inward conversion pretty much prevent someone from committing imperfection? What is meant by “perfect”? And why would someone who has had a conversion continue to have moments of imperfection? Is this some sort of Last Temptation sort of deal?

when i study the scriptures it is clear to me that there is a way to present myself. when i see others calling themsevles christians yet constantly acting in a way that contradicts christ, i know they don't truly represent Christ. i tremble at this scripture:

Romans 2:24
ForTHE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.

having said that, the reference of Romans 6 is not about the occassional slip up, but rather the embracing a lifestyle contrary to the commands of Jesus based on the freedom in grace. paul clearly states that we should put away the old lifestyle - having Grace does not mean we can now embrace a lifestlye contrary to what God has commanded, but instead we are now His witnesses and should set ourselves apart and conform to the image of His son.

Paul though also illistrates perfectly (which i think some have tried to convey here) the conflict of two natures in the believer:
Romans 7:14-25
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of thisdeath?

25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Right. So recognition of this imperfection and acceptance of the way back (Romans 6) should free one from that imperfection, right? The servant cannot serve two masters. He is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. And, as Christ died ONCE to sin and was resurrected into righteousness, acceptance of this should carry the believer through the same death and resurrection. Why, then, the continued imperfection? What does that tell you about the “power” of conversion?

as stated above, paul clearly states the conflict of two natures. Paul also tells us that Jesus will finish the work he started in us, showing it is a process bringing to completion on the day of Jesus Christ

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

it tells me that i am being prepared for an eternal life with God. i am tested throughout this life, gradually weeding out the bad stuff being sanctified for the day that i am united with my savior. i think the illistration of refining gold and/or silver is a great analogy as given in scripture. heat is applied to the metal so the impurities are brought to the surface and removed - the process continues until the gold/silver no longer has impurities. much like the believer, God turns up the heat in our lives so that we may see the impurities and then remove them from our lives. it's a continuation until the day of Christ.

Malachi 3:3
He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.


That implies that you need forgiveness which is a question I asked smalltowngrl. A Buddhist, for example, may recognize the same mistakes one has made in life but believes “forgiveness” merely comes from enlightenment and changing one’s ways. There is no need for external forgiveness. Indeed, they may argue persuasively that to seek forgiveness from an outside source is to remain chained to the “sin” and ignorant of true enlightenment and escape. How are you going to say that they are wrong?

it's interesting that your first comment is a challenge to the need of forgiveness, yet the next (where you are arguing a point of view of the buddhist) is the recognition for the need of forgiveness. i would argue the fallacy in buddhism is that one could never truly escape "all sin." to do so you'd have to go to the source, who is the maker of the law or the moral code to live by. if the buddhist understands himself to be the source, then why the recognition of "past mistakes?" isn't there no wrong or right in the buddhist worldview? why the need for forgiveness of "past mistakes" if one truly hasn't made a mistake? the issue here is the buddhist actually recognizes the nature of man, fallen and sinful, yet cannot reconcile that with their worldview, so they defy the existence of matter in order to get around it - and conclude that all is an illusion and the enlightened ones understand this.

tell that to the person who just got punched in the face. tell that person it was just an illusion and it really didn't happen – and that it wasn't wrong. so no need for forgiveness. how about we deal with reality - that punch was felt, by both the person who threw the punch and the person who recieved it. unless it were an act of self defense (which only supports this) it was a cruel act. if you say it was self defense, then you are protecting yourself from a cruel act – again the recognition of wrong.

external forgiveness is dealing with reality. to be free of the bondage of sin, you must seek the forgiveness of the one you sin against. you cannot free yourself from that sin by yourself - that's not reality, it's a fantasy.

to truly become free from our bondage, someone outside said bondage must set you free. Only Jesus can set you free, and only because he is God. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All, that is, but God Himself. You can't make up the rules AND administer forgiveness for breaking those rules unless you are holding yourself to a standard outside of yourself - i.e. God.

with Jesus we are not left with needing to come to grips with horrible things being an illusion and the pain and suffering nothing more than illusion as well, or the lack of enlightenment. but rather our pains and sufferings are recognized and understood and are not mocked as something fake. through Jesus both justice and mercy are shown equally to everyone. He has taken the judgement upon Himself for those who willing accept such a gift - for those who don't they recieve the penalty due for the injustice they have done.

[orangenblue2]

...to truly become free from our bondage, someone outside said bondage must set you free. Only Jesus can set you free, and only because he is God. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All, that is, but God Himself. You can't make up the rules AND administer forgiveness for breaking those rules unless you are holding yourself to a standard outside of yourself - i.e. God.

with Jesus we are not left with needing to come to grips with horrible things being an illusion and the pain and suffering nothing more than illusion as well, or the lack of enlightenment. but rather our pains and sufferings are recognized and understood and are not mocked as something fake. through Jesus both justice and mercy are shown equally to everyone. He has taken the judgement upon Himself for those who willing accept such a gift - for those who don't they recieve the penalty due for the injustice they have done.

So let me get this straight..."God had himself crucified to save his creation from his very own divine wrath..." That sounds perfectly reasonable...

[epicSocialism4tw]

So let me get this straight..."God had himself crucified to save his creation from his very own divine wrath..." That sounds perfectly reasonable...

It does if you believe in natural law.

[Bronco Bob]

It does if you believe in natural law.

What about people who believe in positive law? Should those people then not believe in that?

[BroncoInferno]

It does if you believe in natural law.

Ladies and gents, I present before you the religious mind in its infinite absurdity.