why the Surge has failed

[mhgaffney]

Patrick Cockburn's recent book about Iraq was a finalist for the 2006 National Book Award.

Despite a physical handicap -- he lives in a wheel chair -- Cockburn has reported from Baghdad since the US invasion in 2003. Unlike other reporters -- he goes outside the Green Zone -- on a regular basis.

He's lucky to still be alive.

I suggest you turn off your TV -- and READ what he has to say. MHG


Why the Surge Has Failed

By PATRICK COCKBURN

The war in Iraq passed a significant but little remarked anniversary this summer. The conflict that President Bush announced was effectively over on May 1, 2003 has now gone on longer than the First World War. Like that great conflict almost a century ago the Iraqi war has been marked by repeated claims that progress is being made and a final breakthrough is in the offing.

In 1917 the French commander General Robert Nivelle proudly announced “we have the formula for victory” before launching the French armies on a catastrophic offensive in which they were massacred. Units ordered to the front brayed like donkeys to show they saw themselves as being like animals led to the slaughter. Soon the soldiers broke into open mutiny.

On January 10 this year President Bush announced that he too now believed he had the formula for victory. In an address to the American nation he announced a new strategy for Iraq that became known as “the surge”. He said he was sending a further 20,000 US troops to Iraq.

for the rest go to

http://www.counterpunch.org/

[defenseman]

Ghaff, you really are wasting your time with this stuff...dman

[The Lone Bolt]

The surge can't have possibly failed or succeeded yet. It was just put into place a couple of months ago and there are some positive signs. We won't be able to make a fair assessment of the surge strategy for several more months.

[defenseman]

The surge can't have possibly failed or succeeded yet. It was just put into place a couple of months ago and there are some positive signs. We won't be able to make a fair assessment of the surge strategy for several more months.

Tell that too about 20 or 30 congressmen and women. They've already buried it and are attempting to write it off before Patreus sets foot on american soil. Pretty hilarious. Classic case of putting the cart before the donkey..dman

[TailgateNut]

The surge can't have possibly failed or succeeded yet. It was just put into place a couple of months ago and there are some positive signs. We won't be able to make a fair assessment of the surge strategy for several more months.


There are positives with the landfall of a hurricane also, but the negatives outweigh the positives.

This war is akin to swallowing a nail. Once it's 1/2 way down it's just a decision of where you want to feel the pain. The outcome is the same.
The ones' who don't think it was a mistake swallowing the nail are dumb as a box of rocks!

[TailgateNut]

Tell that too about 20 or 30 congressmen and women. They've already buried it and are attempting to write it off before Patreus sets foot on american soil. Pretty hilarious. Classic case of putting the cart before the donkey..dman


Everyone with the exception of the sheep knows that if Patreaus were to file a negative outcome report, his goose will be cooked. He will be the next scapegoat!

[Spider]

Everyone with the exception of the sheep knows that if Patreaus were to file a negative outcome report, his goose will be cooked. He will be the next scapegoat!

yep ........ higher ranking men then he is have fallen cause of Iraq ...........

[Garcia Bronco]

Which division is General Cockburn in charge of over there?

[defenseman]

Everyone with the exception of the sheep knows that if Patreaus were to file a negative outcome report, his goose will be cooked. He will be the next scapegoat!

Whatever you say, you obviously have an inside track on the inner workings in DC ....ROFL! ....dman

[Bronco Bob]

Whatever you say, you obviously have an inside track on the inner workings in DC ....ROFL! ....dman

As Bob Dylan once wrote in a song, you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

[Rigs11]

Whatever you say, you obviously have an inside track on the inner workings in DC ....ROFL! ....dman

You don't need an inside track, just common sense in that it has happened to all the generals that bush has had.He spews off everytime about how he listens to the generals on the ground. he does and then he fires them or they mysteriously resign. Seriously it's not rocket science.

[defenseman]

You don't need an inside track, just common sense in that it has happened to all the generals that bush has had.He spews off everytime about how he listens to the generals on the ground. he does and then he fires them or they mysteriously resign. Seriously it's not rocket science.

Patreus has been a square shooter to this point, because some folks don't like some of the info on it's way out of iraq, good news, posturing is in progress. Let's all wait and see what he says before throwing in the towell 'now' instead of possibly later. What do you say? And if you say, he'll have to say it's good news, or get fired, well you are posturing just like the rest of them. Demeaning the words before they ever leave his lips, ergo, your opinion is somewhat tainted wouldn't you say? Let the man talk, hear what he says, make your own call from there. That's being fair to the man in the middle of it all, instead of listening to alot of armchair quarterbacks back home in their cushy leather chairs "thinking" they know more than a general deep in the muck with his guys......dman

[Rigs11]

Patreus has been a square shooter to this point, because some folks don't like some of the info on it's way out of iraq, good news, posturing is in progress. Let's all wait and see what he says before throwing in the towell 'now' instead of possibly later. What do you say? And if you say, he'll have to say it's good news, or get fired, well you are posturing just like the rest of them. Demeaning the words before they ever leave his lips, ergo, your opinion is somewhat tainted wouldn't you say? Let the man talk, hear what he says, make your own call from there. That's being fair to the man in the middle of it all, instead of listening to alot of armchair quarterbacks back home in their cushy leather chairs "thinking" they know more than a general deep in the muck with his guys......dman

Well considering it's happened with all the rest of them. It's very likely that he will be gone if he says things aren't going well.this is a forum, we state our opinions on what we know, it's not posturing.And how many times do we have to wait before throwing in the towel?

[elsid13]

IT NOT freaking TV show, with everything neatly wrapped up in 45 minutes. Freaking politicians need to stop worrying about poll numbers and be leaders.

Things in the real world take time to get going and take a lot of time for the stabilize operation to be successful. It take about 5-7 years to be effective in this types of small intensity conflicts and OOTW.

We are paying for the mistake made early in the conflict of not having the right strategy in place to get the thing moving again. Give the guy a chance to make the right moves to buy us the time to make the political solution develop

[mhgaffney]

Elsid's post is a classic example of denial.

Someone please inform him that Christianity teaches it is a sin to covet another nation's oil.

It's also a sin to steal that same oil.

It's also a sin to kill your neighbor in order to steal his oil

It's also a sin to tell lies in order to kill the neighbor in order to steal his oil.

That's at least four out of ten commandents that our Christian president has broken. Do you think G-d told him to do this?

Someone please inform Elsid. Apparently he never got religion.

[Bronco Bob]

Things in the real world take time to get going and take a lot of time for the stabilize operation to be successful. It take about 5-7 years to be effective in this types of small intensity conflicts and OOTW.


After all, look how long it took the US to win the Vietnam war, eliminate
the communist threat, and establish peace and democracy for the
Vietnamese people.

[TailgateNut]

Whatever you say, you obviously have an inside track on the inner workings in DC ....ROFL! ....dman

Give me a damn break. You act as if one has to be a "political insider" to know the SOP of this administration.
I can't count the number of times I should have said " I told you so" over the last 6-1/2 years. Bushco, Inc is so predictable it's sickening!

[Garcia Bronco]

Elsid's post is a classic example of denial.

Someone please inform him that Christianity teaches it is a sin to covet another nation's oil.

It's also a sin to steal that same oil.

It's also a sin to kill your neighbor in order to steal his oil

It's also a sin to tell lies in order to kill the neighbor in order to steal his oil.

That's at least four out of ten commandents that our Christian president has broken. Do you think G-d told him to do this?

Someone please inform Elsid. Apparently he never got religion.

I noticed you didn't actually refute the position of his post, but you used a system of beliefs you obviously don't believe. You were right not to refute what he said because he's spot on. Now, what division does General Cockburn over see to give his "informed" opinion about the surge?

[mosca]

Elsid's post is a classic example of denial.

Someone please inform him that Christianity teaches it is a sin to covet another nation's oil.

It's also a sin to steal that same oil.

It's also a sin to kill your neighbor in order to steal his oil

It's also a sin to tell lies in order to kill the neighbor in order to steal his oil.

That's at least four out of ten commandents that our Christian president has broken. Do you think G-d told him to do this?

Someone please inform Elsid. Apparently he never got religion.
Christianity's attempts at teaching in its "Good Book", the president's debateable adherence to these tenets, and the connection of both to the Iraq conflict are besides the point here.

If we're trying to steal Iraq's oil, we must be doing a pretty poor job at it, seeing as oil prices aren't really going down, and last I heard, Iraq's oil-exporting capacity is still well below pre-invasion levels. Apparently we're going to be trying to "buy" the oil from them (maybe at discount prices) rather than steal it.

I'm of the opinion that members of the U.S. military ought to get a "free gasoline" card that is valid for say, 5 years. That way they at least they don't have to pay for it like the rest of us do.

[Bronco Bob]

If we're trying to steal Iraq's oil, we must be doing a pretty poor job at it, seeing as oil prices aren't really going down, and last I heard, Iraq's oil-exporting capacity is still well below pre-invasion levels. Apparently we're going to be trying to "buy" the oil from them (maybe at discount prices) rather than steal it.


Who said the purpose of controlling Iraq's oil was to bring gasoline prices down?
Have you noticed the oil companies are making record profits? Taking Iraq's
oil off the market has the effect of limiting supply, which means more can
be charged for what is available, which increases the profit margin.
Invading Iraq wasn't intended to benefit Joe Blow driving his Chevy Tahoe,
it was to help out Exxon/Mobil.

[mosca]

Who said the purpose of controlling Iraq's oil was to bring gasoline prices down?
Have you noticed the oil companies are making record profits? Taking Iraq's
oil off the market has the effect of limiting supply, which means more can
be charged for what is available, which increases the profit margin.
Invading Iraq wasn't intended to benefit Joe Blow driving his Chevy Tahoe,
it was to help out Exxon/Mobil.
Very good point. Where is the "stolen oil" that is derived from the 40% of still-operational Iraqi oil wells going, though?

[TailgateNut]

Who said the purpose of controlling Iraq's oil was to bring gasoline prices down?
Have you noticed the oil companies are making record profits? Taking Iraq's
oil off the market has the effect of limiting supply, which means more can
be charged for what is available, which increases the profit margin.
Invading Iraq wasn't intended to benefit Joe Blow driving his Chevy Tahoe,
it was to help out Exxon/Mobil.


....but for paying attention, the righties will label you as a crybaby. Bush and Co are doing their best to line the pockets of their supporters and contributors before the clock strikes 12! When have they done ANYTHING that benefits the nation without reaping rewards for themselves and their entourage of crooks!

[mosca]

Can anyone answer me this - is Iraq's oil supply being:

a) stolen
b) suppressed to drive up market prices
c) a combination of both
d) other ?

[Bronco Bob]

Can anyone answer me this - is Iraq's oil supply being:

a) stolen
b) suppressed to drive up market prices
c) a combination of both
d) other ?

a) Yes
b) Who knows, except maybe Dick Cheney
c) Could be
d) Yes

[mosca]

I'm not an expert on economics, but I'm not 100% sold on the idea that the oil companies are deliberately suppressing the amount of oil available in order to justify increasing prices. No doubt about it, many Americans will buy gas no matter what is reasonably charged for it, but you'd have to think that after a while, successive price increases would lead to less demand, and less profit for oil companies. I'd suggest that right now we are at a middle ground without too much effect on demand ... but if gas hit upwards of $4-5/gallon, people might get the idea and stop buying so damn much of it.

[Bronco Bob]

Back to the surge:

[mhgaffney]

Christianity's attempts at teaching in its "Good Book", the president's debateable adherence to these tenets, and the connection of both to the Iraq conflict are beside the point here.


Since when are fundamental moral precepts beside the point?

We have murdered at least 650,000 Iraqis, most of them innocent covilians, according to last year's study by Johns Hopkins. The number is no doubt higher today.

We bombed and destroyed almost all of Iraq's infrastructure, including electrical generation, water supplies, bridges -- almost everything.

We invaded a nation that did no harm to us.

These are horrible crimes. So where's your Chrstian outrage on behalf of the victims?

You are the typical phony baloney American stooge -- stupid -- without any morals or principles. You are, in short, the kind of American who was responsible for Abu Graib, where US intelligence and military "specialists" humilialated and degraded innocent captives by raping them, or worse. The torture included attacks on helpless people by guard dogs and unspeakable sexual crimes.

It's no wonder the Islamic world now views us Americans as barbarians. In fact, they have it exactly right. We are barbarians. We have well earned the world's distrust and hatred.

All of this might have been avoided if more Americans demanded fundamental honesty, integrity, and common decency of our leaders.

While you were hypnotized in front of the boooob tube watching foooball, thugs and criminals accomplished a coup (911) and took over our country.

[mosca]

Since when are fundamental moral precepts beside the point?They're not - just no need to brand them as "Christian".
These are horrible crimes. So where's your Chrstian outrage on behalf of the victims?
That's exactly my point - I'm not a Christian, and I don't need a reminder of what the "Good Book" says to know the difference between right and wrong. No need to bring up my, yours, or G.W.'s religious beliefs.
You are the typical phony baloney American stooge -- stupid -- without any morals or principles. You are, in short, the kind of American who was responsible for Abu Graib, where US intelligence and military "specialists" humilialated and degraded innocent captives by raping them, or worse. The torture included attacks on helpless people by guard dogs and unspeakable sexual crimes.
Enough with the insults, Gaff. Your attempt at connecting me with those reprehensible acts is ignorant and ridiculous.
While you were hypnotized in front of the boooob tube watching foooball, thugs and criminals accomplished a coup (911) and took over our country.For the record, I was asleep while 9/11 happened. What exactly were you doing to prevent 9/11 from happening? Please enlighten us lowly Bronco fans as to what we could have been doing. And what's with the attempt to make people feel guilty for *gasp* watching football, of all places, on a football msg board? Get real.

[elsid13]

Elsid's post is a classic example of denial.

Someone please inform him that Christianity teaches it is a sin to covet another nation's oil.

It's also a sin to steal that same oil.

It's also a sin to kill your neighbor in order to steal his oil

It's also a sin to tell lies in order to kill the neighbor in order to steal his oil.

That's at least four out of ten commandents that our Christian president has broken. Do you think G-d told him to do this?

Someone please inform Elsid. Apparently he never got religion.

Who the **** said anything about religion nutsack??? Do want to talk about effective tactics to suppress insurgences and time it takes for things to happen or are you to busy trying to find that missing time on the DON clocks???.

[elsid13]

After all, look how long it took the US to win the Vietnam war, eliminate
the communist threat, and establish peace and democracy for the
Vietnamese people.

And the same mistakes we made there we're making again. That the problem the organization were designed to fight a war based on the plains of Europe. That worked great when you have another power willing to try to stand up to you and go toe to toe, but in this type of engagement it about good intelligence, and grunts on the ground acting like the old cops walking their beats and knowing the neighbors.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ghaff, you really are wasting your time with this stuff...dman

That you can say this with a straight face in spite of the miniscule number of Americans who still support Bush's war is too funny.

ROFL!