Play it again, Sam: Green the newest strongside starter

[dragondawg]

Play it again, Sam: Green the newest strongside starter
By Mike Klis
Denver Post Staff Writer

Either the Broncos believe they have four players who can start at strongside linebacker - or they aren't sure any of them can.

The Broncos released their first depth chart of the season Monday and, fittingly, the only surprise was at the strongside, or "Sam," linebacker position. The new first-string Sam is Louis Green, who celebrated his promotion by watching the day's workouts in sweats while nursing a bruised knee.

"Lou has had an excellent camp thus far; that's why we put him as the No. 1 Sam linebacker," Broncos coach Mike Shanahan said. "But in a day or two he could be No. 2 or 3."

Shanahan was bluntly stating a trend. Before camp, Eddie Moore had been playing with the first-team defense at Sam, but he suffered a knee injury late in an offseason mini-camp and was released. Camp opened last week with Warrick Holdman as the No. 1 strongside linebacker, followed by Nate Webster and then D.D. Lewis.

Now, Green, a longtime Broncos backup and special-teams standout, opens week two of camp as the starter, at least on paper. Green was pleased but admittedly surprised by his promotion Monday because he didn't think he was having his best camp.

"Every time I was watching the film, I would always see something I could do a whole lot better," Green said.

Hawk Valley?

No one is characterizing it as a problem, but Broncos officials are monitoring the number of hawks and raccoons that have recently infiltrated Dove Valley.

Luckily, the creatures have demonstrated aversions to crowds, so they've stayed away from the workout sessions, although a raccoon was seen scooting around the trees near the south end zones as the afternoon practice commenced.

The week before camp started, a nest of baby hawks got aggressive and occasionally swooped down on an unsuspecting field worker, but no injuries were reported.

"It's actually been great for us because it's helped us with our rabbit population," said Chip Conway, the team's vice president of operations.

Anniversaries

This season marks the 10th anniversary of the Broncos' first Super Bowl championship (a 31-24 win over Green Bay). It's also the 20th anniversary of the players' strike and the team's third Super Bowl appearance (a 42-10 loss to Washington), the 30th anniversary of the Orange Crush and the team's first Super Bowl appearance (a 27-10 loss to Dallas), and 40th anniversary of franchise legitimacy by signing two-time AFL champion coach Lou Saban to a 10-year contract.

Footnotes

Defensive tackle Sam Adams has been dressed for the team's morning workouts, but he hasn't been participating in many team drills as a precaution after offseason arthroscopic knee surgery. ...

Missing from the depth chart were the three players who started camp on the physically unable to perform list - receivers Rod Smith and Brandon Marshall and tight end Tony Scheffler. There is a chance Scheffler and Marshall will return later in the week. ...

All those injured receivers - Brandon Stokley (Achilles) also has missed time - has allowed quarterback Jay Cutler to time up routes with backups Brian Clark, Quincy Morgan and David Kircus. "The wide receivers have been really thin, so I've been proud of them for sticking it out and doing what they have done so far," Cutler said. "It's just going to add some depth and more power to our offense.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_6559830

[bronco610]

Dawg, do you ever sleep? Nice read thanks!

[footstepsfrom#27]

Play it again, Sam: Green the newest strongside starter
By Mike Klis
Denver Post Staff Writer

Either the Broncos believe they have four players who can start at strongside linebacker - or they aren't sure any of them can.
It's the latter. Throw Dumervil in there and give him a shot at it.

[SoCalBronco]

It's just a ploy to keep Webster and Lewis hungry. It's a two man race at this point. Louis Green is firmly entrenched as the top backup at Will, he isn't even in this competition. You just keep the competitors fighting, you don't give one a reason to be complacent. It is how it was before the depth chart came out...a two man battle, not involving Green at all.

[chrisp]

I remember a couple of years back Green was being touted as a talented backup that other teams would have been interested in, but back then I'm sure he was only about 220 lbs so not big enough for the SAM position, he was the natural successor to Ian Gold on the other side.

Now the website has him listed at 237 so either my memory is flawed (impossible!!!!!) or he's bulked up a bit and could be a genuine contender for the SAM spot.

I certainly seem to recall sources saying he had good speed....

[BroncoBuff]

He's small for a Sam ... and it must be easy to learn, cause he's been a Will since he got here, backing up Gold. Now suddenly he's a Sam? SoCal's right - Shanny's trying to prod the thusfar unimpressive Sam candidates.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Give Dumervil a shot.

[BroncoInferno]

Give Dumervil a shot.

Why? He's going to have 10 sacks for us as a situational pass rusher this year. We'd be wasting his primary talent putting him at SAM (rushing the passer).

[Odysseus]

Give Dumervil a shot.

If they give Dumervil a shot that means he might not even make the roster.

[footstepsfrom#27]

If they give Dumervil a shot that means he might not even make the roster.
You don't know that. Other college linemen have made the switch, including this guy:

http://www.fieldofdreams.com/images/athlete-Mecklenburg-big.jpg

It's not like any of these other candidates look that promising. Dumervil has the size and strength to play that spot, and he could double as an extra DE at anytime, something Mecklenburg did quite well also. What is there to lose by trying him there?

[CHANGSTER]

It's not like any of these other candidates look that promising. Dumervil has the size and strength to play that spot, and he could double as an extra DE at anytime, something Mecklenburg did quite well also. What is there to lose by trying him there?

I don't think I wanna see him ever covering a TE. I suppose if he never had to cover he would be effective.

[BroncoInferno]

You don't know that. Other college linemen have made the switch, including this guy:

http://www.fieldofdreams.com/images/athlete-Mecklenburg-big.jpg

It's not like any of these other candidates look that promising. Dumervil has the size and strength to play that spot, and he could double as an extra DE at anytime, something Mecklenburg did quite well also. What is there to lose by trying him there?

Meck played in a 3-4 scheme, which asks much different things from LBs than the Bates 4-3 scheme. The SAM has lots of coverage responsibilities and not a lot of pass rush responsibilities. We'd be nullifying his biggest strength (pass rsuh) and asking him to learn something that he has no experience doing (coverage assignments, and lots of them). To make it a worthwhile move, they'd have to completely revamp the position to play to his strengths; that isn't going to happen.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Can any of these other candidates cover TE's? Who knows. But I think we should try to have the best players on the field as much as possible and IMO he's in that top 11. We need safeties to help with the Gonzo's and Gates of the world anyway.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Meck played in a 3-4 scheme, which asks much different things from LBs than the Bates 4-3 scheme. The SAM has lots of coverage responsibilities and not a lot of pass rush responsibilities. We'd be nullifying his biggest strength (pass rsuh) and asking him to learn something that he has no experience doing (coverage assignments, and lots of them). To make it a worthwhile move, they'd have to completely revamp the position to play to his strengths; that isn't going to happen.
I don't see why we'd be nullifying his pass rush opportunities if he were on the field 3 downs instead of 1...currently we're nullifying his pass rush abilities any time the QB decides to throw on 1st or 2nd down anyway because he's not even on the field, so at worst all we'd be doing is trading one negative for another if he can't cover tight ends. Besides...so what if he can't cover? It's not like every team has Gates or Gonzo and the safeties need to help out anyway. I still think he's worth trying over there...for one thing we're assuiming he can't cover but how do we really know that? What's to lose by taking a look?

Here's another thing...everyone talks about his pass rushing abilities, but I believe this dude also set some NCAA records for fumbles caused in college, meaning he can tackle. Stopping the run is still the most important thing LB's need to do and right now I'm not seeing anyone I think is that great taking DJ's old spot. I just think the guy's a football player, and has more talent than these generic nobodies we're hoping will blosom out of nowhere.

[Mediator12]

I don't see why we'd be nullifying his pass rush opportunities if he were on the field 3 downs instead of 1...currently we're nullifying his pass rush abilities any time the QB decides to throw on 1st or 2nd down anyway because he's not even on the field, so at worst all we'd be doing is trading one negative for another if he can't cover tight ends. Besides...so what if he can't cover? It's not like every team has Gates or Gonzo and the safeties need to help out anyway. I still think he's worth trying over there...for one thing we're assuiming he can't cover but how do we really know that? What's to lose by taking a look?

Here's another thing...everyone talks about his pass rushing abilities, but I believe this dude also set some NCAA records for fumbles caused in college, meaning he can tackle. Stopping the run is still the most important thing LB's need to do and right now I'm not seeing anyone I think is that great taking DJ's old spot. I just think the guy's a football player, and has more talent than these generic nobodies we're hoping will blosom out of nowhere.

Dude, you are a very smart guy with some reasonable takes most of the time. However, sometimes you go completely WTF?!?

Dumervil as a SAM LB ??? Have you ever heard of coverage and Fighting through trash? These are skills a DE is not going to learn in one preseason TC. Period. Hell, our CB's struggled to learn Zone Coverages that they had played before and you want to Man up Dumervil over on the crowded side of the OL and let him deal with routine combo blocks?

This one is a little over the top, even for you ;D

[c_lazy_r]

I don't see why we'd be nullifying his pass rush opportunities if he were on the field 3 downs instead of 1...currently we're nullifying his pass rush abilities any time the QB decides to throw on 1st or 2nd down anyway because he's not even on the field, so at worst all we'd be doing is trading one negative for another if he can't cover tight ends. Besides...so what if he can't cover? It's not like every team has Gates or Gonzo and the safeties need to help out anyway. I still think he's worth trying over there...for one thing we're assuiming he can't cover but how do we really know that? What's to lose by taking a look?

Here's another thing...everyone talks about his pass rushing abilities, but I believe this dude also set some NCAA records for fumbles caused in college, meaning he can tackle. Stopping the run is still the most important thing LB's need to do and right now I'm not seeing anyone I think is that great taking DJ's old spot. I just think the guy's a football player, and has more talent than these generic nobodies we're hoping will blosom out of nowhere.


If it were feasible to put Elvis in that spot, the coaching staff would've recognized it.

[worm]

People can get all twisted in a knot over Moss and what the implications of him not playing will be...but this position battle will be the key to Denver's D this year.

Somebody needs to step up and seperate themselves from the pack and grab this job.

[crowebomber]

I don't see why we'd be nullifying his pass rush opportunities if he were on the field 3 downs instead of 1...currently we're nullifying his pass rush abilities any time the QB decides to throw on 1st or 2nd down anyway because he's not even on the field, so at worst all we'd be doing is trading one negative for another if he can't cover tight ends. Besides...so what if he can't cover? It's not like every team has Gates or Gonzo and the safeties need to help out anyway. I still think he's worth trying over there...for one thing we're assuiming he can't cover but how do we really know that? What's to lose by taking a look?

Here's another thing...everyone talks about his pass rushing abilities, but I believe this dude also set some NCAA records for fumbles caused in college, meaning he can tackle. Stopping the run is still the most important thing LB's need to do and right now I'm not seeing anyone I think is that great taking DJ's old spot. I just think the guy's a football player, and has more talent than these generic nobodies we're hoping will blosom out of nowhere.

Last year on a couple of plays Dumervil was forced to cover a tight end or full back and I just remember thinking "oh no" as he kinda looked like Rerun chasing after the truck in the opening scene of What's Happening - long ole arms flailing as he just chased the TE down the field. Dumervil might as well try punting if you're going to say he has a chance at playing the SAM.

[Steve Prefontaine]

People can get all twisted in a knot over Moss and what the implications of him not playing will be...but this position battle will be the key to Denver's D this year.

Somebody needs to step up and seperate themselves from the pack and grab this job.
So are you saying that the person that wins the starting SAM position is going to be the difference maker on this defense?

If so, I don't agree. I think SAM is going to be a weaker link on the defense this year and I have come to terms with that. Every team has a position where they don't have a standout, and for Denver this year I think it's going to be SAM.

I think Webster, DD Lewis, or Holdman will all do fine. I don't expect any of them to suddenly become a standout and huge playmaker on the defense. On the other hand, if Moss can contribute as a pass rushing specialist this year, it would be huge for the defense.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Dude, you are a very smart guy with some reasonable takes most of the time. However, sometimes you go completely WTF?!?

Dumervil as a SAM LB ??? Have you ever heard of coverage and Fighting through trash? These are skills a DE is not going to learn in one preseason TC. Period. Hell, our CB's struggled to learn Zone Coverages that they had played before and you want to Man up Dumervil over on the crowded side of the OL and let him deal with routine combo blocks?

This one is a little over the top, even for you ;D
I've heard these arguments before. You'll notice I didn't say he had to start over there this season. I'm simply suggesting we start giving him a look. If he flat out sucks we can move him back to DE. So what's the downside of finding out? None that I can see.

[footstepsfrom#27]

If it were feasible to put Elvis in that spot, the coaching staff would've recognized it.
If that theory held water George Foster would never have been a Bronco.

[footstepsfrom#27]

So are you saying that the person that wins the starting SAM position is going to be the difference maker on this defense?
No...but it's a spot where we are obviously lacking, so why not take a shot in the dark and see what a former Outland Trophy winner might have to offer. It's not like experimenting with moving a D-line guy to LB has never been done successfully.[/QUOTE]

[c_lazy_r]

If that theory held water George Foster would never have been a Bronco.

Are you suggesting that you know more than the coaching staff?

If Elvis had potential to play 'backer, surely someone within the organization would have brought it up in one of their thousands of hours of meetings. Don't you think?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Are you suggesting that you know more than the coaching staff?

If Elvis had potential to play 'backer, surely someone within the organization would have brought it up in one of their thousands of hours of meetings. Don't you think?
Well I guess since none of know more than the coaches we shouldn't ever question a decison or suggest anything in here then right? Come on, that's just silly...that's what this board is for. Besides...for all you know, they HAVE considered doing this and we don't know it yet. Terrell Davis played NT in high school and rode the pine in college...coaches make mistakes or overlook stuff too.

Repeating again...what's the downside to giving him a few reps in practice and starting to teach a few skills to see if he's got any potential? The dude's got arms like an orangutan so he might get beat downfield by 5 yards and still reach up and knock a pass down. The kid has demonstrated at both the college and pro level he's a playmaker, so why not at least CONSIDER the possibility he might be able to play a spot where he can stay on the field for 60 plays instead of 15 if he gets some time to explore the opportunity to work over there. Like I said...none of these other guys are gonne prove to be worth much anyway in all probability.

[lazarus4444]

If that theory held water George Foster would never have been a Bronco.

I understand where you are coming from footsteps. Perhaps it was discussed during the offseason, who knows, but i wouldn't mind giving him a try. I don't know why everybody is so offended by this suggestion ?

[c_lazy_r]

Well I guess since none of know more than the coaches we shouldn't ever question a decison or suggest anything in here then right? Come on, that's just silly...that's what this board is for. Besides...for all you know, they HAVE considered doing this and we don't know it yet. Terrell Davis played NT in high school and rode the pine in college...coaches make mistakes or overlook stuff too.

Repeating again...what's the downside to giving him a few reps in practice and starting to teach a few skills to see if he's got any potential? The dude's got arms like an orangutan so he might get beat downfield by 5 yards and still reach up and knock a pass down. The kid has demonstrated at both the college and pro level he's a playmaker, so why not at least CONSIDER the possibility he might be able to play a spot where he can stay on the field for 60 plays instead of 15 if he gets some time to explore the opportunity to work over there. Like I said...none of these other guys are gonne prove to be worth much anyway in all probability.


That is exactly my point. It has been considered and discarded, I'll almost guarantee it.

I'm just saying that the Denver Broncos organization has alot of people that get paid very well to evaluate the players on the roster. Due to the fact that Elvis doesn't exactly fit as the stereotypical DE physically, I'm quite sure they have considered playing him in other positions to maximize his value. If he isn't getting reps there (at LB) it's because he is more valuable to the team as a DE.

[Beantown Bronco]

I don't know why everybody is so offended by this suggestion ?

Pretty simple, really. Most here believe that Elvis is a one trick pony like Moss.....he can only rush the passer.

Now take that one trick pony and tell him he is now moving to a position that 90% of the time will not rush the passer, but will instead cover TEs and RBs in the flat and down the field.

See the problem now?

Now, granted, if you don't see him as a one-trick pony and believe he can actually cover guys down the field (despite the obvious flaws some reportedly saw out of him last season), then you obviously would not be part of this crowd....

[Odysseus]

Dude, you are a very smart guy with some reasonable takes most of the time. However, sometimes you go completely WTF?!?

Dumervil as a SAM LB ??? Have you ever heard of coverage and Fighting through trash? These are skills a DE is not going to learn in one preseason TC. Period. Hell, our CB's struggled to learn Zone Coverages that they had played before and you want to Man up Dumervil over on the crowded side of the OL and let him deal with routine combo blocks?

This one is a little over the top, even for you ;D

I appreciate Footsteps excitement but he's getting way ahead of himself. This team has to first do the things right they are supposed to do before Bates can start looking around at his new defense rigging known plays, moving around players, and tweaking anything. No offense to anybody but I think Footsteps idea is good intentioned but that is a next off season deal. Right now he's got to stop getting smoked on key plays as a DE much less a SAM.

I am glad he didn't say convert him into a ball hawking safety. We had one thread where this poster was hilarious. He names half the roster of guys getting cut and wanted them to be ball hawking safeties. Too funny. :giggle:

[footstepsfrom#27]

That is exactly my point. It has been considered and discarded, I'll almost guarantee it.

I'm just saying that the Denver Broncos organization has alot of people that get paid very well to evaluate the players on the roster.
Who got paid to evaluate Foster?
Due to the fact that Elvis doesn't exactly fit as the stereotypical DE physically, I'm quite sure they have considered playing him in other positions to maximize his value. If he isn't getting reps there (at LB) it's because he is more valuable to the team as a DE.
OR...it could be that our pass rush sucked eggs and we had some dude playing SAM last year who got drafted in the 1st round and one at MLB who went to Hawaii 5 times but Elvis had 20 sacks in college so why mess with things? Now we have...who?...over there?

Nobody who's proven squat. Sometimes neccessity is the mother of invention.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Pretty simple, really. Most here believe that Elvis is a one trick pony like Moss.....he can only rush the passer.

Now take that one trick pony and tell him he is now moving to a position that 90% of the time will not rush the passer, but will instead cover TEs and RBs in the flat and down the field.

See the problem now?

Now, granted, if you don't see him as a one-trick pony and believe he can actually cover guys down the field (despite the obvious flaws some reportedly saw out of him last season), then you obviously would not be part of this crowd....
90% of the time? Try 45%...65 plays/30 passes and 35 runs, and on some of those passes the TE will stay in to block, while on others he can blitz. For the record...labeling him a one trick pony after one season seems premature. I'm betting some people told this dude he was to small to even play college ball at Division I level. If you start bringing him along slowly who knows what you have a year down the road.

What was the downside of finding out again?

[Odysseus]

So are you saying that the person that wins the starting SAM position is going to be the difference maker on this defense?

If so, I don't agree. I think SAM is going to be a weaker link on the defense this year and I have come to terms with that. Every team has a position where they don't have a standout, and for Denver this year I think it's going to be SAM.

I think Webster, DD Lewis, or Holdman will all do fine. I don't expect any of them to suddenly become a standout and huge playmaker on the defense. On the other hand, if Moss can contribute as a pass rushing specialist this year, it would be huge for the defense.

Exactly and like it has been already posted they HAVE looked at Dumervil at the SAM but declined. That is why he is buried on depth chart. Broncos will find a way to cover underneath better. Most passers don't stretch the field that well so they will have to take some aggressive guesswork to lockdown the middle. I am thinking a couple of really nasty hits from John Lynch will make them into converts.

I have Linebacker for the Broncos draft, FA or UDFA as a very high priority. Unless our guys get rock steady and consistent at the SAM I think whatever they are we are going to have to live with them.

[c_lazy_r]

Who got paid to evaluate Foster?

OR...it could be that our pass rush sucked eggs and we had some dude playing SAM last year who got drafted in the 1st round and one at MLB who went to Hawaii 5 times but Elvis had 20 sacks in college so why mess with things? Now we have...who?...over there?

Nobody who's proven squat. Sometimes neccessity is the mother of invention.


Have you even read anything that I've written?

I am not disagreeing with you about whether Elvis can or can't play LB. I am arguing that the idea certainly isn't a novel one. It has been considered, evaluated, maybe implemented and rejected by people that are around him everyday. They know where he should play. You and I don't.

BTW, quit using Foster as an personnel example. There are hundreds of poor player evaluations that could be cited, league-wide. Foster wasn't undersized. He was a first round draft pick. He was paid a large amount of money (some guaranteed, I'm sure). He was never asked to change positions. The two situations are not comparable.

[-Slap-]

OLB will be a major weakness this season, but you can't fix everything in the same off season. We addressed the D line, CB, RB and TE this off season. I imagine LB, WR, S and the O line will get overhauls in the summmer of '08.

Realistically, it's just nice to see the overall cap hit from the LB corps reduced this season. They haven't really earned their money the last several years, so why not reduce the payroll for that unit?

[Kaylore]

OLB will be a major weakness this season
I think you'll be surprised.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Exactly and like it has been already posted they HAVE looked at Dumervil at the SAM but declined.
Eh...when did this happen? c_lazy_ indicates they MIGHT have done so since he can't comprehend why he's not playing there at his size unless they'd already considered this as an option. I don't recall hearing a single report that has ever stated the coaching staff ever tried this idea out. So if you guys know something I don't on this please post a link.

[-Slap-]

I think you'll be surprised.

Not if they wind up generally overrated by the fan base. I've gotten pretty used to that concept.

[footstepsfrom#27]

BTW, quit using Foster as an personnel example. There are hundreds of poor player evaluations that could be cited, league-wide. Foster wasn't undersized. He was a first round draft pick. He was paid a large amount of money (some guaranteed, I'm sure). He was never asked to change positions. The two situations are not comparable.
Who cares if he asked to change positions...what else could he play but O-line? Changing positions had nothing to do with them missing on him anyway. He was drafted on the basis of his projected development and potential talent's upside, which turned out to be directly linked to a midget sized heart and an inability to overcome nagging injuries. The point is they made a major mistake, so it proves they're not infallible...if anybody actually needed proof of that.

[Kaylore]

Not if they wind up generally overrated by the fan base. I've gotten pretty used to that concept.

Well let me be clear. We don't have any world beaters over there, but I expected it suck outright and after watching them for awhile, I don't like it's going to be this glaring weakness that a lot of people are expecting it to be.

[-Slap-]

I'm confident Bates can scheme around the situation for a year.

[Odysseus]

I'm confident Bates can scheme around the situation for a year.

I am confident that the first team to crack that code will prove you right without a doubt.

Offense needs to be more consistent. I wonder if that is coaching or just not having the right guys out there. We have a couple of key starters making it go. They need some help out there.

[worm]

Well let me be clear. We don't have any world beaters over there, but I expected it suck outright and after watching them for awhile, I don't like it's going to be this glaring weakness that a lot of people are expecting it to be.

When you have a journeyman pop up as the #1 SAM on the depth chart during TC, whether it is due to mind games or the fact that he earned it, it sets off warning bells to me.

I want this D to be DOMINANT and I just don't see that happening with Louis Green as the starting SAM.