Rivers didn't look good to me on NFL Netowrk

[ZONA]

I watched the Chargers camp and a few things I noticed.

Rivers was not that accurate with long throws downfield and I know it's only camp but several times I counted to 5 before he released the ball in the pocket. I hope he thinks he's gonna have that kinda time when the regular season comes :)

LT looked fast on the edges - what else is new there.

[WoodMan]

He worked on his game during the off-season. Oh yeah, that was his golf game! ROFL! Maybe his foot is still bothering him.

[Popcorn Sutton]

Who, Shotput?

[CBF1]

I thought the same thing about Rivers when I was watching this afternoon.

[theAPAOps5]

I thought it was weird watching it and there were no fans. Actually, I might be wrong I bet all 20 of them were off camera.

[JJJ]

I thought it was weird watching it and there were no fans. Actually, I might be wrong I bet all 20 of them were off camera.

For the record there were 4 thousand fans there that evening.

[theAPAOps5]

For the record there were 4 thousand fans there that evening.

Ah gotcha ya. Didn't see them on TV, didn't hear them cheer. Probably still figuring out who is who. I mean there is a lot learn for all the new fans.

[Sodak]

We could only be so lucky that Rivers could somehow suck this season, but he won't. Don't get too excited just yet.

[theAPAOps5]

We could only be so lucky that Rivers could somehow suck this season, but he won't. Don't get too excited just yet.

I agree, I think we should plan on seeing a very good QB. Plus TC is supposed to be where you look bad and work out the kinks and timing.

[Merlin]

We could only be so lucky that Rivers could somehow suck this season, but he won't. Don't get too excited just yet.
I still have high hopes. He virtually collapsed under pressure in the last quarter of last season, and with the exception of Denver (which could not pressure a college team last yr), the last third of the season he looked very avg if not mediocre. In true Sandi eggo fashion he should continue his decline.

[JJJ]

I still have high hopes. He virtually collapsed under pressure in the last quarter of last season, and with the exception of Denver (which could not pressure a college team last yr), the last third of the season he looked very avg if not mediocre. In true Sandi eggo fashion he should continue his decline.

I agree he had a pretty tough stretch in the last 6 games. The backhalf of the season he started throwing off his back foot a lot. Don't think it was pressure though. There was probably more pressure at the beginning of the season when he had to prove himself replacing a pro-bowler. It is a long season and first year guys get tired I think. Cutler might have had the same issue if he had started in game 1.

Hopefully they fixed his footwork in the offseason. You throw off the back foot in this league and you are dead.

[Merlin]

Don't think it was pressure though. There was probably more pressure at the beginning of the season when he had to prove himself replacing a pro-bowler.
Sorry for my lack of clarity. By pressure I meant pressure from the opposing D. However, I do agree that his mechanics started to falter, but I concluded that he was picking up bad habits as he began to succumb to the blitzes and pressures of the latter third of the season.

[That One Guy]

I don't remember which game it was but I believe there was a game or two where they just made Rivers look pretty bad with the blitzes somewhere in the middle of the season. Am I remember it correctly? If I am, that'd explain the downfall. You figure someone's weaknesses out and the ballgame's over.

[JJJ]

Sorry for my lack of clarity. By pressure I meant pressure from the opposing D. However, I do agree that his mechanics started to falter, but I concluded that he was picking up bad habits as he began to succumb to the blitzes and pressures of the latter third of the season.

Got it. Understood.

Footwork is the key for Rivers IMO. When he got hit with that pressure alot of wiggling feet (not at the level of happy feet though) and passes where he was doing little leaps and things. He had an injury to the leg for several games and his bad footwork seemed to get worse at that point. Coaches are supposed to see that stuff in a first year guy and correct it. Hopefully they did.

I give Cuts credit, he seems to stand pretty firm in the pocket. Can't argue with the guys mechanics.

[theAPAOps5]

Cutler has to translate that to game though. His pocket prescence last year was one of his weaknesses. His TC presence is completely different. He is stepping up sliding out, and looking of the S and DBs. I can't wait to see what game situations look like.

As for Rivers. It kind of became the norm to blitz him late in the season. If he works on that I bet he can overcome that weakness. If he didn't then look out.

[Casper Bronco]

You throw off the back foot in this league and you are dead.

Wrongo buddy! If you can't throw off the back foot you are dead.

[JJJ]

Wrongo buddy! If you can't throw off the back foot you are dead.

Don't agree at all. Even strong arm QBs like Cutler get in all kinds of trouble if they do anything more than throw 5 yard dinks or swing passes off the backfoot. The good ones find a way to throw off the left foot even when they are scrambling.

As for Rivers at least he doesn't have to worry too much about pressure when playing Denver. JMoss won't be the savior there. It will have to come from Lynch. And to stay away from Champ and Dre you will see a lot of Gates and LT in the flat.

[theAPAOps5]

Don't agree at all. Even strong arm QBs like Cutler get in all kinds of trouble if they do anything more than throw 5 yard dinks or swing passes off the backfoot. The good ones find a way to throw off the left foot even when they are scrambling.

As for Rivers at least he doesn't have to worry too much about pressure when playing Denver. JMoss won't be the savior there. It will have to come from Lynch. And to stay away from Champ and Dre you will see a lot of Gates and LT in the flat.'

Oh I wouldn't be so sure. Its not just Moss but Denver added some others that will be key contributors. The most being Jim Bates. You can assume Denver won't have a rush again but I think you will be surprised.

[serious hops]

Wrongo buddy! If you can't throw off the back foot you are dead.

I remember Phil Simms addressing exactly that point during a broadcast a few years ago. Can't quote him word for word, but it was to the effect that "you don't want to throw off your back foot when you don't have to, but if you can't make some throws off it when you need to, you won't last long in this league." Admittedly Simms gets on my nerves a lot, and I never considered him an elite quarterback, but he does know a bit about playing QB in the NFL.

[broncofan2438]

who gives a crap, everyone is on the chuggers jock, but i will be sittin laughin when they choke it again, maybe we can see LT cry like a b i t c h again

[JJJ]

who gives a crap, everyone is on the chuggers jock, but i will be sittin laughin when they choke it again, maybe we can see LT cry like a b i t c h again

From this post it is quite clear why they try to keep Californians out of Colorado.

[broncofan2438]

What is that supposed to mean, i am a Broncos fan trapped in cali, i grew up in colorado, why wouldnt the colroadains want me?

From this post it is quite clear why they try to keep Californians out of Colorado.

[boltaneer]

As for Rivers. It kind of became the norm to blitz him late in the season. If he works on that I bet he can overcome that weakness. If he didn't then look out.

A couple of people have said this in the past and it's just not true.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5529

SPLIT CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA TD INT SACK RAT
Blitz 85 144 1107 59.0 7.69 11 3 16.0 100.1

Rivers had some bad games down the stretch. I give him a pass on the Buffalo and Seattle games because they were played in pretty bad weather. Losman and Hasselbeck had horrible games as well.

The Raiders and Chiefs didn't blitz a whole lot. But they manned up on the receivers and did a good job on coverage. The biggest problem with the Chargers WRs right now is their lack of ability to get separation. They found a weakness in San Diego's offense and attacked it.

Just looking at the box score, his stats won't show it but he played pretty well in the playoff game (he did throw that one bad INT intended for LT). The problem with the offense that day was the receivers not showing up and Cameron inexplicably using LT as a decoy in the second half.

The single biggest difference between Brees and Rivers has been Rivers ability to handle the blitz. Look at Brees' split stats from 2006. Just like in years past when he's put up some gaudy numbers, he still struggles against the blitz. It's not something I put the blame on him for though. I think his height hinders his ability to see the field when he doesn't have adequate time.

Anyway, back to the Chargers... Craig Davis looks like he can definitely be a weapon for Rivers as he has the ability to get good separation. I think Jackson may not be quick and agile enough to ever reach that point. He's got to be people with straight speed and using his height and body to shield out defenders. Parker is decent at getting separation but more on the short routes, nothing to scare a defense. Floyd is decent in that department and he seems to be improving. He just needs to stay healthy and keep gaining more experience.

[Dedhed]

I've been compiling a list of the biggest disappointments of the 2007 NFL season, and I have Philip Rivers ranked at #2 currently. He trails only the New England Patriots, who have already been given another ring by most NFL pundits.

Rivers had a terrible finishto the season, which Sandy fans want to disregard, but which I think are real cracks which will be exploited by a number of teams this year. LT had the best year he's going to have in 2006, and from here on out he'll be giving Rivers less and less backup. That is not to say that LT still won't be the offensive MVP in 2007, but he carried that team last year and can't continue to do so much longer.

I don't think Rivers has the kind of ability to make up for the inevitable decline in LT, or the Norv factor.

[400HZ]

I thought Rivers really bounced back well from that KC/Seattle slump. He shredded Arizona while playing on a severely screwed up foot, and even though the stats don't show it he was throwing strikes against New England too. That slump he hit wasn't just on himself, it also had a lot to do with the WR corps being decimated by injuries and the O line taking a step back in pass protection for some reason. Besides, why is it so shocking that a first year starter hit a bump in the road? It's a growth process. If Cutler has a couple bad games, which the law of averages says he probably will, are you gonna just chalk him up as a failure?

[That One Guy]

I kinda fear what Norv can do this year with such a talented team. A few years down the road when we see the effects of the team that Norv built, yeah he'll bring them down. For now though, someone else built a very talented team and he gets to teach em... the only possibility is a defensive regression but I wouldn't expect it, a lot of the D is just about reaction. It's not like they made their money on blitzes and crazy schemes. The offense could be better though and that's pretty scary.

I really hope Rivers has a sophmore slump.

[MechanicalBull]

I think it's funny how according to Khan and SoCal Cutler has been having his ups and downs but it's only training camp then we get to Rivers and it's oh man he didn't look good.

We just have to hope that Norv's inability to coach outweighs the talent that is on the Chargers.

[Sassy]

Ah gotcha ya. Didn't see them on TV, didn't hear them cheer. Probably still figuring out who is who. I mean there is a lot learn for all the new fans.

The only numbers they know are LT and Merrimans. Not sure they even know what River's number is (according to what we saw at the game last December! Ha! )

[DeuceOfClub]

Rivers isn’t what worry’s me. If we can contain that roid-infested-cop-shooters front seven we should be O.K.
LT had a great year against us last year but he usually takes a bye-week against Denver, if we can put the game in Rivers’ hands and pressure him we will sweep Norm Turner’s squad.

[Merlin]

A couple of people have said this in the past and it's just not true.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5529

SPLIT CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA TD INT SACK RAT
Blitz 85 144 1107 59.0 7.69 11 3 16.0 100.1

Rivers had some bad games down the stretch. I give him a pass on the Buffalo and Seattle games because they were played in pretty bad weather. Losman and Hasselbeck had horrible games as well.
Do you purposely ignore peoples comments, or are you too dense to understand. Nowhere did anyone say that his numbers for the season were poor. That data is far too skewed by the first half of the season. Do a split and exclude the Denver games and you will see he played poorly, especially against pressure. Now as to excusing his games because of Losman and Hasselbeck, you are joking right? First off, they were not facing the SD D, second JP has proven only that he is extremely inconsistent. Only in the last 2-3 games of the season did he begin show some consistency. Hasselbeck was injured and even stunk against Denver.

Stop being an apologist and deal with the facts, or just don't bring your game, especially when you are visiting a non-eggo-kool-aid site. And you can also keep the excuse about his lack of wr, because we are talking about how he performed (i.e. technically) while facing pressure (notice the specifics, btw, he still had gates and LT to help relieve the pressure when under attack, only he stunk in the latter part of the season).

Braddy had far worse people to rely on, and never look anything like Rivers. However, until we see how Rivers performs this yr, it is hard to argue he is doomed (only that he has the makings ;) ). Lets see how he responds to coaching this yr before drawing any conclusions (especially against greatness since the last example of his work was POOR!).

[Merlin]

I thought Rivers really bounced back well from that KC/Seattle slump. He shredded Arizona while playing on a severely screwed up foot, and even though the stats don't show it he was throwing strikes against New England too. That slump he hit wasn't just on himself, it also had a lot to do with the WR corps being decimated by injuries and the O line taking a step back in pass protection for some reason. Besides, why is it so shocking that a first year starter hit a bump in the road? It's a growth process. If Cutler has a couple bad games, which the law of averages says he probably will, are you gonna just chalk him up as a failure?
What is it with your eggo fans. You are now going to try and make your point by arguing about his performance against ARIZONA? Why, the Lions were not available? BTW, he did look bad against NE, that is why the stats are what they are (just because he threw some strikes does not deny the fact that he generally stunk). You guys are truly a joke. Hell, even Cutler as rookie (second or third game of his life in the NFL) had a great game against them. Now as to how to judge Cutler, well, if he shows the same preponderance for crumbling under pressure as Rivers showed at the end of last season, then there will be a lot of discussion in this forum during the off-season.

[Merlin]

I think it's funny how according to Khan and SoCal Cutler has been having his ups and downs but it's only training camp then we get to Rivers and it's oh man he didn't look good.

We just have to hope that Norv's inability to coach outweighs the talent that is on the Chargers.
No, some of us are speaking specifically about his performance in the latter 3rd of last season (excluding the Denver games, and with good reason). As to Cutler, no, he kept on getting better as the season progressed (but he can still regress, we shall see).

Now as to Norv, there is absolutely nothing to suggest he makes a good head coach. His performance has been pitifully, and the apologists have been excusing his past. Until he proves it, there is absolutely no reason why one should be able to argue otherwise. Norv has had ample opportunity to prove otherwise.

[Xenos]

I still have high hopes. He virtually collapsed under pressure in the last quarter of last season, and with the exception of Denver (which could not pressure a college team last yr), the last third of the season he looked very avg if not mediocre. In true Sandi eggo fashion he should continue his decline.

He didn't collapse under pressure last year. His decline happened mainly because his receivers ie. Floyd, Parker, and McCardell were injured during that time period. Lack of options at the wide receiver position means more difficulty for a QB.
Then there's the fact that he wasn't conditioned enough probably to play an entire season. It happens. Now that he knows what to expect he should be fine ie. his offseason training has made him stronger and bigger.

[Xenos]

A couple of people have said this in the past and it's just not true.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5529

SPLIT CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA TD INT SACK RAT
Blitz 85 144 1107 59.0 7.69 11 3 16.0 100.1

Rivers had some bad games down the stretch. I give him a pass on the Buffalo and Seattle games because they were played in pretty bad weather. Losman and Hasselbeck had horrible games as well.

The Raiders and Chiefs didn't blitz a whole lot. But they manned up on the receivers and did a good job on coverage. The biggest problem with the Chargers WRs right now is their lack of ability to get separation. They found a weakness in San Diego's offense and attacked it.

Just looking at the box score, his stats won't show it but he played pretty well in the playoff game (he did throw that one bad INT intended for LT). The problem with the offense that day was the receivers not showing up and Cameron inexplicably using LT as a decoy in the second half.

The single biggest difference between Brees and Rivers has been Rivers ability to handle the blitz. Look at Brees' split stats from 2006. Just like in years past when he's put up some gaudy numbers, he still struggles against the blitz. It's not something I put the blame on him for though. I think his height hinders his ability to see the field when he doesn't have adequate time.

Anyway, back to the Chargers... Craig Davis looks like he can definitely be a weapon for Rivers as he has the ability to get good separation. I think Jackson may not be quick and agile enough to ever reach that point. He's got to be people with straight speed and using his height and body to shield out defenders. Parker is decent at getting separation but more on the short routes, nothing to scare a defense. Floyd is decent in that department and he seems to be improving. He just needs to stay healthy and keep gaining more experience.
That's where you're wrong Boltaneer. One of the things that was so fascinating about VJ, and one of the main reasons wny we drafted him, is the fact that he can make the cuts of a man half his size. He doesn't simply have straight line speed. Right now his main weakness is not attacking the ball enough and body catching. From all the camp reports, he seems to have addressed those issues.

[Xenos]

Do you purposely ignore peoples comments, or are you too dense to understand. Nowhere did anyone say that his numbers for the season were poor. That data is far too skewed by the first half of the season. Do a split and exclude the Denver games and you will see he played poorly, especially against pressure. Now as to excusing his games because of Losman and Hasselbeck, you are joking right? First off, they were not facing the SD D, second JP has proven only that he is extremely inconsistent. Only in the last 2-3 games of the season did he begin show some consistency. Hasselbeck was injured and even stunk against Denver.

Stop being an apologist and deal with the facts, or just don't bring your game, especially when you are visiting a non-eggo-kool-aid site. And you can also keep the excuse about his lack of wr, because we are talking about how he performed (i.e. technically) while facing pressure (notice the specifics, btw, he still had gates and LT to help relieve the pressure when under attack, only he stunk in the latter part of the season).

Braddy had far worse people to rely on, and never look anything like Rivers. However, until we see how Rivers performs this yr, it is hard to argue he is doomed (only that he has the makings ;) ). Lets see how he responds to coaching this yr before drawing any conclusions (especially against greatness since the last example of his work was POOR!).
You're right. Brady's actually had worst games than Rivers did last year. Rivers may never have thrown four tds in a game like Brady, but he also never threw 4 interceptions like him either.

[Xenos]

What is it with your eggo fans. You are now going to try and make your point by arguing about his performance against ARIZONA? Why, the Lions were not available? BTW, he did look bad against NE, that is why the stats are what they are (just because he threw some strikes does not deny the fact that he generally stunk). You guys are truly a joke. Hell, even Cutler as rookie (second or third game of his life in the NFL) had a great game against them. Now as to how to judge Cutler, well, if he shows the same preponderance for crumbling under pressure as Rivers showed at the end of last season, then there will be a lot of discussion in this forum during the off-season.

Well does the stats show how many drops our WRs had in that game? He could have had at least 2 TDs in that game if it wasn't for our receivers ie. Gates bobbling the ball near the endzone and Jackson not dragging his foot inbound. Do the stats also show that he played with a bum foot, while dealing with a weak right tackle who was recovering from a groin injury?

[That One Guy]

Now as to Norv, there is absolutely nothing to suggest he makes a good head coach. His performance has been pitifully, and the apologists have been excusing his past. Until he proves it, there is absolutely no reason why one should be able to argue otherwise. Norv has had ample opportunity to prove otherwise.

Nobody expects Norv to be a great head coach other than maybe a few Bolts fans. What is expected though is for him to keep his hands off what worked well and just try for a redo of last year with an improved offense. If he can make Rivers really click, which is his specialty, they could be dangerous. It'll take a few years for him to destroy that squad, it won't happen in one offseason.

[400HZ]

What is it with your eggo fans. You are now going to try and make your point by arguing about his performance against ARIZONA? Why, the Lions were not available? BTW, he did look bad against NE, that is why the stats are what they are (just because he threw some strikes does not deny the fact that he generally stunk). You guys are truly a joke. Hell, even Cutler as rookie (second or third game of his life in the NFL) had a great game against them. Now as to how to judge Cutler, well, if he shows the same preponderance for crumbling under pressure as Rivers showed at the end of last season, then there will be a lot of discussion in this forum during the off-season.

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/352147/2/istockphoto_352147_praying_man.jpg

[400HZ]

Do you purposely ignore peoples comments, or are you too dense to understand. Nowhere did anyone say that his numbers for the season were poor. That data is far too skewed by the first half of the season. Do a split and exclude the Denver games and you will see he played poorly, especially against pressure. Now as to excusing his games because of Losman and Hasselbeck, you are joking right? First off, they were not facing the SD D, second JP has proven only that he is extremely inconsistent. Only in the last 2-3 games of the season did he begin show some consistency. Hasselbeck was injured and even stunk against Denver.

Stop being an apologist and deal with the facts, or just don't bring your game, especially when you are visiting a non-eggo-kool-aid site. And you can also keep the excuse about his lack of wr, because we are talking about how he performed (i.e. technically) while facing pressure (notice the specifics, btw, he still had gates and LT to help relieve the pressure when under attack, only he stunk in the latter part of the season).

Braddy had far worse people to rely on, and never look anything like Rivers. However, until we see how Rivers performs this yr, it is hard to argue he is doomed (only that he has the makings ;) ). Lets see how he responds to coaching this yr before drawing any conclusions (especially against greatness since the last example of his work was POOR!).

Why do we have to discount the Denver game? You don't want to think about it, or what? Why doesn't it count?

Tom Brady had horrendous games last year, as did Payton Manning. Should Patsy and Indy fans be worked up about it? Or is it possible that good quarterbacks just occasionally have bad games? Hmm.

[Merlin]

You're right. Brady's actually had worst games than Rivers did last year. Rivers may never have thrown four tds in a game like Brady, but he also never threw 4 interceptions like him either.
Yeah, but Braddy never showed it through a third of a season. Are you that obtuse or do you just lack the intellect to tell the difference? Every great QB will have bad games, and even a series of bad games. What has yet to be established is whether Rivers had a series of consecutive bad games (which Braddy has not had), or whether this is just a sign of things to come. The difference again is that you and your brethren cannot understand/tell the difference.

[400HZ]

Rivers isn’t what worry’s me. If we can contain that roid-infested-cop-shooters front seven we should be O.K.
LT had a great year against us last year but he usually takes a bye-week against Denver, if we can put the game in Rivers’ hands and pressure him we will sweep Norm Turner’s squad.

Interesting. That's exactly what Larry Coyer said last year when he left 8 guys in the box all game in week 13. That game didn't count though.

[Merlin]

Why do we have to discount the Denver game? You don't want to think about it, or what? Why doesn't it count?
Proof positive that the simple argument that is being given to you and explained gets past your head. Go read it again, and think about Denver's D last yr, that might give you a little insight...it really is not that complicated.

Tom Brady had horrendous games last year, as did Payton Manning. Should Patsy and Indy fans be worked up about it?
Again, simple argument. Every player will have bad days, we are talking about the ending 3rd of the season...substantial difference, unless you cannot understand simple concepts; i.e. a game (or 2-3 games, especially non-consecutive games) vs the last third of a season.

[400HZ]

What is it with your eggo fans. You are now going to try and make your point by arguing about his performance against ARIZONA? Why, the Lions were not available? BTW, he did look bad against NE, that is why the stats are what they are (just because he threw some strikes does not deny the fact that he generally stunk). You guys are truly a joke. Hell, even Cutler as rookie (second or third game of his life in the NFL) had a great game against them. Now as to how to judge Cutler, well, if he shows the same preponderance for crumbling under pressure as Rivers showed at the end of last season, then there will be a lot of discussion in this forum during the off-season.

ROFL! ROFL! ROFL!

You're soooo full of crap! Most fans in here would be tripping over themselves throwing out excuses for Cutler. And wow, if you took away Cutler's #1, #2, and #4 receivers for an extended period I would say it is a very good excuse. That's exactly what Rivers was dealing with at the end of last season.

[Merlin]

It'll take a few years for him to destroy that squad, it won't happen in one offseason.
He does not need to destroy them, and he is smart enough not to do that. HC is about performing at a higher level and preparing the team to perform on game day and adapting on game day. Norv has yet to demonstrate he can be even avg in this context. Now as to the D, people forget that whats his name only had really good yrs as D coordinator when he was under their long departed D coordinator. I have no reason to believe this D will perform as it did last yr, it will most likely digress. Combine that with Norv, and you have a nice recipe for under performance. Will eggos be good? No doubt, but good is not enough to even win a playoff game (as they learned last yr.) There is no reason to assume they can be great (which is needed to advance in the playoffs), not with this coaching staff.

PS Come playoff time, think of the coaches Norv will have to outsmart. It just is unlikely to happen. He has never shown the pedigree to perform at such a level as a HC

[400HZ]

Proof positive that the simple argument that is being given to you and explained gets past your head. Go read it again, and think about Denver's D last yr, that might give you a little insight...it really is not that complicated.

[quot]Tom Brady had horrendous games last year, as did Payton Manning. Should Patsy and Indy fans be worked up about it?
Again, simple argument. Every player will have bad days, we are talking about the ending 3rd of the season...substantial difference, unless you cannot understand simple concepts; i.e. a game (or 2-3 games, especially non-consecutive games) vs the last third of a season.[/QUOTE]

Listen, dumbass, everybody is comprehending your dribble just fine, you're just making a stupid argument. You don't need to be so condescending.

2-3 bad games IS EXACTLY WHAT RIVERS HAD LAST YEAR. You're just cherry picking out his good games for some mystical reason. Denver and Arizona had bad defenses? Well so did Seattle and KC, yet he struggled against them. Why? Because he was having a bad 2-3 game stretch! Just like every quarterback in the league experiences from time to time.

[Merlin]

[/B][Some] fans in here would be tripping over themselves throwing out excuses for Cutler. And wow, if you took away Cutler's #1, #2, and #4 receivers for an extended period I would say it is a very good excuse. That's exactly what Rivers was dealing with at the end of last season.
No doubt, I'm sure we have some fans who are as simplistic in their analysis as you eggo fans. However, many will be more than happy to discuss his potential shortcomings, especially if some are willing to ignore them. However, your WR were not the problem, Rivers had critical players available to him to address pressure (Gates and LT are two of the BEST IN THE NFL), yet he crumbled like a high-school QB instead of relying on his teams tools to make the opposition pay.

[400HZ]

No doubt, I'm sure we have some fans who are as simplistic in their analysis as you eggo fans. However, many will be more than happy to discuss his potential shortcomings, especially if some are willing to ignore them. However, your WR were not the problem, Rivers had critical players available to him to address pressure (Gates and LT are two of the BEST IN THE NFL), yet he crumbled like a high-school QB instead of relying on his teams tools to make the opposition pay.

You're calling my analysis simplistic while casually saying that Rivers shouldn't need wide receivers in the passing game!

[Merlin]

Well does the stats show how many drops our WRs had in that game? He could have had at least 2 TDs in that game if it wasn't for our receivers ie. Gates bobbling the ball near the endzone and Jackson not dragging his foot inbound. Do the stats also show that he played with a bum foot, while dealing with a weak right tackle who was recovering from a groin injury?
Do you guys even bother watching your team? We are talking about the LAST 3RD of the SEASON (of course excepting the power D of Denver). He was avg to mediocre at best. Yet he still had TWO critical players (arguably the TWO BEST IN THE NFL) to help him address the pressure, but instead he collapsed. His mechanics looked poor at best by the end of the season. That was not fatigue, that was just a poor response to pressure.

[Merlin]

You're calling my analysis simplistic while casually saying that Rivers shouldn't need wide receivers in the passing game!
Learn to read/understand. We are talking about specific aspects of his play, and the availability of tools to help him address those problems, yet you focus on areas that were tangentally a factor (especially when talking about how Rivers responded in play and mechanics).

[That One Guy]

Not to jump on here but I don't know about the legitimacy of claiming a QB was fatigued. All he's done for years is throw the ball... it's not like a rookie RB running into a wall... 25-30 game throws a week shouldn't fatigue anyone and the longer season didn't do anything 'cause he'd been sitting on the bench experiencing NFL-length seasons for a while.

[Merlin]

Interesting. That's exactly what Larry Coyer said last year when he left 8 guys in the box all game in week 13. That game didn't count though.
Because you fail to address/understand simple arguments.

[Merlin]

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/352147/2/istockphoto_352147_praying_man.jpg
I agree, you definetely need to be doing a lot of that...you certainly have no reason to have any faith in your coaching staff to get you anywhere past that big hump you gotta get past. Even then, unless that coaching staff is able to channel the gods of football themselves, they are not going to get you anywhere past the AFC game...hell, it is HIGHLY unlikely they will even get close to the AFC game. In fact, you may want to start with simple prayers, hope they can get Rivers past his disintegration from last yr.

[400HZ]

Because you fail to address/understand simple arguments.

No, you fail to address/understand simple arguments.

You say the Denver and Arizona games shouldn't count because Denver and Arizona have crappy defenses. Maybe true, but so do KC and Seattle which were the teams he performed the worst against (even though he pulled it together in the end to ice both games.)

[400HZ]

I agree, you definetely need to be doing a lot of that...you certainly have no reason to have any faith in your coaching staff to get you anywhere past that big hump you gotta get past. Even then, unless that coaching staff is able to channel the gods of football themselves, they are not going to get you anywhere past the AFC game...hell, it is HIGHLY unlikely they will even get close to the AFC game. In fact, you may want to start with simple prayers, hope they can get Rivers past his disintegration from last yr.

You're right. We should just mail it in. We may have the youngest and most talented team in the NFL (http://www.kffl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209051), but Merlin thinks that Phillip Rivers sucks. We're doomed. I mean holy hell, it was his first year starting and he had 2 or 3 bad games towards the end of the season before bouncing back. Pathetic! And the games that he was spectacular in don't even count. And he sucks. It's really an iron-tight argument. Somebody get Spanos on the phone.

[JJJ]

Do you guys even bother watching your team? We are talking about the LAST 3RD of the SEASON (of course excepting the power D of Denver). He was avg to mediocre at best. Yet he still had TWO critical players (arguably the TWO BEST IN THE NFL) to help him address the pressure, but instead he collapsed. His mechanics looked poor at best by the end of the season. That was not fatigue, that was just a poor response to pressure.

Not much of a football wizard are you Merlin? You guys really do only see what you want to see. I understand from reading the threads here besides that San Diego is going to fall into the ocean and Philip Rivers will crumble into a pile of dust that you now have the best defensive line in the NFL, an unstoppable quarterback with a rocket for an arm (especially on 2 yard outs in the end zone apparently) and the best secondary to ever set foot on a football field.

Both prodigies started last year their first season and your boy is now 0-2 against our guy. Last game our guy, who is on the verge of being a complete bust, threw for 280 yards, had a passer rating of 136, and scored 48 points against your squad. When was the last time Denver gave up 48 points?

No excuses for either guy this year so lets see how it plays out.

[Xenos]

Do you guys even bother watching your team? We are talking about the LAST 3RD of the SEASON (of course excepting the power D of Denver). He was avg to mediocre at best. Yet he still had TWO critical players (arguably the TWO BEST IN THE NFL) to help him address the pressure, but instead he collapsed. His mechanics looked poor at best by the end of the season. That was not fatigue, that was just a poor response to pressure.

Yes we watch the games. Apparently, you don't. Listen, during that last 3rd of the season, he had two medicore games against Oakland and KC. That's really about it. The Buffalo game was fine (like his earlier efforts against the Rams and Browns). It wasn't a great performance like the Denver or Bengals game, but oh well. The Seahawks game was more or less due to the weather, and even then it was decent game for him. Why was it a decent game? Well despite the fact that he only completed 10 of his 30 passes, he still led us to a comeback victory. What can I say. The guy seems to have knack for keeping us in games.

date Team QB rating
Nov 26 OAK W 21-14 44.2
Dec 3 @ BUF W 24-21 85.4
Dec 10 DEN W 48-20 136.0
Dec 17 KAN W 20-9 12.4
Dec 24 @ SEA W 20-17 77.2
Dec 31 ARI W 27-20 117.2
It should be noted that the second KC game was interesting in how their defense approach the game. They basically concentrated all on Rivers, but in do so they basically gave way to the run, and LT ended up with 199 yards for that game.
The funniest thing about this whole ordeal is that Brees also "decline" during the same time. I guess those two will always be connected somehow.

Also about the second bolded part. We do have two critical players on our team. Unfortunately, without necessary receivers to relieve pressure off of those two, it becomes harder to get them the ball.

[skpac1001]

You guys seem genuinely suprised some guys on a rival teams fan forum don't have as high an opinion of your team as you do.

[boltaneer]

What a stupid discussion this has become.

We've acknowledged that Rivers had a couple of bad games but we have to discount the good ones he had in that same stretch?

He had a couple of bad games. He had a couple of good games. And he had a few games where he didn't play great nor horribly but is getting too much negativity for from people who probably didn't watch those games closely.

[R8R H8R]

He does not need to destroy them, and he is smart enough not to do that. HC is about performing at a higher level and preparing the team to perform on game day and adapting on game day. Norv has yet to demonstrate he can be even avg in this context. Now as to the D, people forget that whats his name only had really good yrs as D coordinator when he was under their long departed D coordinator. I have no reason to believe this D will perform as it did last yr, it will most likely digress. Combine that with Norv, and you have a nice recipe for under performance. Will eggos be good? No doubt, but good is not enough to even win a playoff game (as they learned last yr.) There is no reason to assume they can be great (which is needed to advance in the playoffs), not with this coaching staff.

PS Come playoff time, think of the coaches Norv will have to outsmart. It just is unlikely to happen. He has never shown the pedigree to perform at such a level as a HC

Great points. I live in So. Cal. and have encountered way too many bandwagon dolt fans lately that all believe the reason they did not win the Super Bowl was because of Marty. Marty was the problem; now that he is gone, they can now win the SB. Yes, Marty's post season failures are well documented, I am delighted to say. But, and it kills me to say this, but in the regular season, he is about as good as it comes. Norv has no such history.

However, with that being said dolt fans, what is your evidence that Norv is an upgrade over Marty? And, what is your evidence that Cottrell is even equal to Phillips?

No hypos and unfounded theories, just evidence. I say the dolts will probably be good in the regular season (but not great or scary as they were at times last year) for Norv's 1st year, maybe two; but eventually he will lose the team as has been his history. Certainly, SB is probably out of the question for a Norv coached team.

[boltaneer]

You guys seem genuinely suprised some guys on a rival teams fan forum don't have as high an opinion of your team as you do.

I'd like to see other fans be more objective, that's all. Homerism is ignorance.

If there is an aspect of the Broncos or any other team that I'm not as familiar with as you guys, I don't speak on the subject. I don't claim to be a know-it-all. And I'll throw criticism or praise at a Charger when they deserve it.

[boltaneer]

However, with that being said dolt fans, what is your evidence that Norv is an upgrade over Marty? And, what is your evidence that Cottrell is even equal to Phillips?

I don't know of a single Charger fan who has claimed this. In fact, the impression I get is that most are not thrilled with the decision to hire Norv, but they understand that he was probably the best person available.

If you look at Norv's history, he's done well with great talent and hasn't faired well with poor talent. Will he be able to do well here with the talent that is at his disposal? I can't answer that. None of us can.

[broncofan2438]

If Cutler has a couple bad games, which the law of averages says he probably will, are you gonna just chalk him up as a failure?

No, but it is just easier to rip on Rivers and the ChuggersLOL

[R8R H8R]

[QUOTE]I don't know of a single Charger fan who has claimed this.

I do, and they are all glad Marty is gone.

In fact, the impression I get is that most are not thrilled with the decision to hire Norv, but they understand that he was probably the best person available.

Wow, I am not too sure what you are admitting to here, but it sounds like you are resigned to the fact that you settled for a mediocre coach because he was available.

If you look at Norv's history, he's done well with great talent and hasn't faired well with poor talent. Will he be able to do well here with the talent that is at his disposal? I can't answer that. None of us can.

Well, that means he faired well 1 year in 8 or 9 yrs., losing in the divisional round.

So, I told you what I thought was in store for the dolts this year. There has been a lot of smack coming from the dolt fans this offseason. Tell me your take on this year's season. What's your honest prediction?

[ZONA]

We may have the youngest and most talented team in the NFL

Young doesn't mean sqat anymore since free agency. Young guys get good and then go to the highest bidder, not stay on the same team forever (most of them anyway). As for most talented.......you might, you might not. Talent alone doesn't win the Superbowl, it's a little luck, a little good fortune, health and other factors. The stars were all in alignment last year for the Bolts, you don't get it that way very often.

[boltaneer]

I do, and they are all glad Marty is gone.

Well, I'm glad Marty is gone also. I was one fo the few that was probably happy about his hiring here. And he did a great job of turning this team around. But he took this team as far as he could. It's time to give someone else a chance.

Wow, I am not too sure what you are admitting to here, but it sounds like you are resigned to the fact that you settled for a mediocre coach because he was available.

I don't know who else they could have hired that would have been better. They could have hired one of the 'hot commodity' candidates but this team does not need to start over with a rookie head coach. Norv and Cottrell keep the offensive and defensive schemes here intact. That's a big positive. Peronally, I'm not really thrilled about Norv either but I see the positives in his hire and I'll give him his fair shot here before I crucify him. But I'm even less enthusiastic about the Cottrell hire. He's had both good and poor defenses in the past. He seems to be a perfect fit for this defense and he is considered more aggressive than Wade Phillips but I remain cautiously optimistic. As much as Wade's passive style drove me crazy at times, you can't deny the success he had here. I just think he had the personnel to attack more and be more creative. I've said it before that I think Cottrell's success/failure is the key to this season.

So, I told you what I thought was in store for the dolts this year. There has been a lot of smack coming from the dolt fans this offseason. Tell me your take on this year's season. What's your honest prediction?

My prediction? Barring any disastrous injuries, I think the Chargers are a lock to compete for the division title. Will they win it? It depends on a number of factors. Will Cutler step up his game or not? Will LJ hold out or not? Honestly, on paper, the division should come down between San Diego and Denver. I think KC will be fielding a subpar team this year but if LJ gets his new contract and is happy, he could carry that team. And they always play tough at home so they have an outside chance at making some noise just like they did last year.

If the Chargers make it to the playoffs (and I think they will), how can you not like their chances better than with Marty? We all throw Marty jokes around but seriously, there was something just bizarre about his teams just completely doing a 180 in the playoffs. I think the Chargers have a good shot at going deep into the playoffs this year.

[400HZ]

Young doesn't mean sqat anymore since free agency. Young guys get good and then go to the highest bidder, not stay on the same team forever (most of them anyway). As for most talented.......you might, you might not. Talent alone doesn't win the Superbowl, it's a little luck, a little good fortune, health and other factors. The stars were all in alignment last year for the Bolts, you don't get it that way very often.

As much as people say that the stars aligned for the Chargers last year, we would have been completely screwed even if we'd beaten New England. No Phillip Rivers, no Shawne Merriman, and no Shaun Phillips against Indy would have probably been a disaster.

As for free agency, I completely disagree. Youth and team continuity is severely underrated. And it is possible to maintain a young talented roster with proper planning and fiscal responsibility. Different strokes for different folks, though.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Rivers has the weakest arm in the division.

[ZONA]

As much as people say that the stars aligned for the Chargers last year, we would have been completely screwed even if we'd beaten New England. No Phillip Rivers, no Shawne Merriman, and no Shaun Phillips against Indy would have probably been a disaster.

As for free agency, I completely disagree. Youth and team continuity is severely underrated. And it is possible to maintain a young talented roster with proper planning and fiscal responsibility. Different strokes for different folks, though.


Other teams have won the superbowl with back up QB's and other backups as well. Of course you can maintain a youthful team, but no team will keep all of it's fabulous youth and star youth's. A team can only pay so many stars top money. Guaranteed the Bolts will have to make a few of those tough calls in the next year when some of the defensive players all have contracts up at the same time.

[ZONA]

Rivers has the weakest arm in the division.

He's got average arm strength but I don't get the feeling it's "god given" strength as some of the guys in the league have. He looks pretty fit but I also think his mechanics are keeping him from throwing the deep ball a long ways with good control and accuracy. When he throws deep, it really looks like he's trying super hard to wing that ball rather then just throwing it normal, as some guys do. When I watched George throw the ball, it would go 70 yards on a line and he didn't even look like he was trying to throw it hard. Some guys got it natural like that and some don't. It's the same reason why some guys can throw a fastball over 100mph and some can't get close, no matter how much they work out and practice.

[boltaneer]

Honestly, I could care less if Rivers has the weakest arm in the division as long as he's the best.

[R8R H8R]

Well, I'm glad Marty is gone also. I was one fo the few that was probably happy about his hiring here. And he did a great job of turning this team around. But he took this team as far as he could. It's time to give someone else a chance.

Well, you know what they say, "be careful for what you pray for..."


I don't know who else they could have hired that would have been better. They could have hired one of the 'hot commodity' candidates but this team does not need to start over with a rookie head coach. Norv and Cottrell keep the offensive and defensive schemes here intact. That's a big positive. Peronally, I'm not really thrilled about Norv either but I see the positives in his hire and I'll give him his fair shot here before I crucify him. But I'm even less enthusiastic about the Cottrell hire. He's had both good and poor defenses in the past. He seems to be a perfect fit for this defense and he is considered more aggressive than Wade Phillips but I remain cautiously optimistic. As much as Wade's passive style drove me crazy at times, you can't deny the success he had here. I just think he had the personnel to attack more and be more creative. I've said it before that I think Cottrell's success/failure is the key to this season.

I agree with most of your points, but I think you are making one of my points as well, and that is that you are giving in to the fact that you settled for a mediocre coach. One thing about the Cottrell promotion, Norv probably won't be able to "inspire" him to greatness, so that may not bode well.



My prediction? Barring any disastrous injuries, I think the Chargers are a lock to compete for the division title. Will they win it? It depends on a number of factors. Will Cutler step up his game or not? Will LJ hold out or not? Honestly, on paper, the division should come down between San Diego and Denver. I think KC will be fielding a subpar team this year but if LJ gets his new contract and is happy, he could carry that team. And they always play tough at home so they have an outside chance at making some noise just like they did last year.


OK, your prediction isn't much different than mine and probably most fair football fans. Except, I wouldn't use the word "lock". Haven't you heard? According to the national media, only the Pats are a lock for anything this year! :giggle:

If the Chargers make it to the playoffs (and I think they will), how can you not like their chances better than with Marty? We all throw Marty jokes around but seriously, there was something just bizarre about his teams just completely doing a 180 in the playoffs. I think the Chargers have a good shot at going deep into the playoffs this year.

You were doing good until this. ;D Seriously, I don't like the chargers chances in the playoffs because of your mediocre coach(at best). He is not an upgrade over Marty, he is a downgrade, a big downgrade, IMO. And that will show itself throughout his time in SD.

BTW, what is your definition of "deep in the playoffs"? Mine is at least the AFC championship game. Shanny has proven he can still get a team at least that far in the post Elway era (with less talent than the chargers had last year, I might add). Norv has not, and I am happy to say, probably won't. But we'll see.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Honestly, I could care less if Rivers has the weakest arm in the division as long as he's the best.

That's just it. He's not. His weak arm isn't going to help.

[24champ]

I'd take Rivers over Brody Frail easily.

[Sassy]

Honestly, I could care less if Rivers has the weakest arm in the division as long as he's the best.

Which means he probably won't be winning a SB ring anytime soon. ROFL!

[broncofan2438]

Wow, is this where all the Chugger fans meet is in the "Rivers suck thread"

[That One Guy]

I'll be interested to see how quick SD falls apart when they realize that Turner won't do em any good. They'll have a 9 or 10 win season, become the best team to be poorly coached, and then those highly talented players will start jumping ship. They said Mcneil came back for less money than he could've made elsewhere and that makes sense if he truly believed he could get a SB win with the talent they had. Once they realize the ship is going nowhere, folks will be more likely to get off.

[Bronco Yoda]

Bolts and Broncos are both blessed with young strong-armed QB's that seem to have great potential. Only time will tell...

This may just turn into a great rivalry for years to come (if the pigskin gods smile on diego).

...but bolts fans will have to come to grips with the fact that consistantcy in coaching is key (obviously). ...and Norv won't last more than three years.

[400HZ]

Arm Strength is overrated. Accuracy and intelligence are much, much more important.

[Inkana7]

Arm Strength is overrated. Accuracy and intelligence are much, much more important.

If Rivers had decent arm strength you wouldn't be saying that.

[400HZ]

Other teams have won the superbowl with back up QB's and other backups as well. Of course you can maintain a youthful team, but no team will keep all of it's fabulous youth and star youth's. A team can only pay so many stars top money. Guaranteed the Bolts will have to make a few of those tough calls in the next year when some of the defensive players all have contracts up at the same time.

There aren't any important contracts up until after the 2009 season. Drayton Florence will hit free agency next year, which is why Antonio Cromartie and Paul Oliver were drafted. Planning ahead!

[400HZ]

If Rivers had decent arm strength you wouldn't be saying that.

Rivers does have decent arm strength.

[24champ]

If Rivers had decent arm strength you wouldn't be saying that.

Yeah but Ryan Leaf supposedly had a howitzer for an arm...how did that turn out?

[400HZ]

Yeah but Ryan Leaf supposedly had a howitzer for an arm...how did that turn out?

Seriously. If arm strength is the tell all factor for a QB, then I guess the Raiders will be dominating this year. And Jeff George will be starting.

[Xenos]

Rivers has the weakest arm in the division.

Yeah. But at least he's not the most brittle or the dumbest.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Yeah. But at least he's not the most brittle or the dumbest.

I wouldn't say Croyle is brittle. It's an urban legend. I can only assume you're talking about JaMarcus Russell with the "dumb" comment.

[Xenos]

Rivers, Russell, Croyle...it doesn't matter. Because none of them can match Cutler. After all, who else can do a reverse roundhouse kick or have facts written about them.


P.S. I think only one poster will probably get this joke.

[Xenos]

He's got average arm strength but I don't get the feeling it's "god given" strength as some of the guys in the league have. He looks pretty fit but I also think his mechanics are keeping him from throwing the deep ball a long ways with good control and accuracy. When he throws deep, it really looks like he's trying super hard to wing that ball rather then just throwing it normal, as some guys do. When I watched George throw the ball, it would go 70 yards on a line and he didn't even look like he was trying to throw it hard. Some guys got it natural like that and some don't. It's the same reason why some guys can throw a fastball over 100mph and some can't get close, no matter how much they work out and practice.

I used to think that it was his throwing motion that was keeping him from throwing it deep well. But now I realize his throwing motion really has nothing to do with it. He just doesn't have the natural howitzer of say Cutler or Russell like you said. It doesn't matter though. He can still make all the throws when needed, and his workout this offseason has strengthen him in that area from what I've heard.

[Kaylore]

I don't think Rivers has a weak or even average arm. I think it's much stronger than Brees' arm. I don't like his wind up on the longer throws, though. It's like his release is fast unless he has to get it down field a longer distance and then he has to cock the thing back really far for some reason.

[skpac1001]

I'd like to see other fans be more objective, that's all. Homerism is ignorance.

If there is an aspect of the Broncos or any other team that I'm not as familiar with as you guys, I don't speak on the subject. I don't claim to be a know-it-all. And I'll throw criticism or praise at a Charger when they deserve it.

I don't know, homerism is much more fun when your Qb is going on his 6th game. God knows Raiders and Chiefs fans need homerism to survive.

[JJJ]

They said Mcneil came back for less money than he could've made elsewhere and that makes sense if he truly believed he could get a SB win with the talent they had. Once they realize the ship is going nowhere, folks will be more likely to get off.

It was Dielman who came back for less money. McNeill was a rookie.

It is hard to get off the ship when you are under contract.

Fact is most of the young talent in SD is under contract through 2009 and much of it until 2011. Bolts really won't have to worry much about price escalation and the cap until 2010.

You will be seeing this team pretty much in this form for the next three years without a single name player outside of Drayton Florence in a position to leave even if they wanted to. But the fact is they don't want to.

Can't say the same for the team itself is locked up for that long, but that is a different story altogether.

[400HZ]

Anybody remember this thread http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=50759 ?

[theAPAOps5]

Arm Strength is overrated. Accuracy and intelligence are much, much more important.


And both SD and Denver have QBs that excel in all those areas. The thing about Cutler is he is a student of the game. Thats what I love about him. He is a gym rat and a tape fiend. Rivers I have read is the same way. I think this will shape out to be an awesome rivalry to watch for years to come.

[Xenos]

I don't think Rivers has a weak or even average arm. I think it's much stronger than Brees' arm. I don't like his wind up on the longer throws, though. It's like his release is fast unless he has to get it down field a longer distance and then he has to cock the thing back really far for some reason.

And Brees showed everyone (including me) last season that even though he didn't have a particular strong arm by NFL standard, he could still get it down the field due to proper training and foot placement.

[theAPAOps5]

And Brees showed everyone (including me) last season that even though he didn't have a particular strong arm by NFL standard, he could still get it down the field due to proper training and foot placement.

He also changed the way he wound up. He did a lot of exercises to strengthen his core muscles, recognizing that his torso would help generate power. He spent a lot of time fixing what was wrong.

[JJJ]

And both SD and Denver have QBs that excel in all those areas. The thing about Cutler is he is a student of the game. Thats what I love about him. He is a gym rat and a tape fiend. Rivers I have read is the same way. I think this will shape out to be an awesome rivalry to watch for years to come.

I agree. There are some great games headed our way for the next few years. We should sit back and enjoy these guys going head to head. Dolts and Donks will be at each other's throats for the next 3-4 years I think.

If JeMarcus signs and the Chiefs ever get a real quarterback it could be pretty fun in the West for awhile.

[theAPAOps5]

I agree. There are some great games headed our way for the next few years. We should sit back and enjoy these guys going head to head. Dolts and Donks will be at each other's throats for the next 3-4 years I think.

If JeMarcus signs and the Chiefs ever get a real quarterback it could be pretty fun in the West for awhile.

I think we have the upper hand in QBs. The Raiders won't even pay their guy what his pick is worth, and he isn't worth the top pick they used on him. The Chiefs, well they have a QB who should be a punter and who is going to get slaughtered behind that crap line. I think SD and Den will be battling for the division and the others will be drafting high in the first round!

[400HZ]

He also changed the way he wound up. He did a lot of exercises to strengthen his core muscles, recognizing that his torso would help generate power. He spent a lot of time fixing what was wrong.

There was a great TV special on that a couple years ago. I wish I had tivo back then. Brees and LT were both on the same program during the offseason prior to the 2005 season. It was all focused on muscles that you wouldn't even think of, like inside the foot and behind the sternum. Brees took a big step forward in terms of arm strength between 04 and 05, and obviously took another big step in 06.

[cutthemdown]

I've never thought when watching Rivers, "hey this guy has a weak arm." His arm is plenty strong to get it done. Rivers impressed me last year for a guy starting his first season. I wouldn't go counting on Broncos beating Chargers because Rivers can't throw deep.

[theAPAOps5]

There was a great TV special on that a couple years ago. I wish I had tivo back then. Brees and LT were both on the same program during the offseason prior to the 2005 season. It was all focused on muscles that you wouldn't even think of, like inside the foot and behind the sternum. Brees took a big step forward in terms of arm strength between 04 and 05, and obviously took another big step in 06.

I remember that, he realized his core muscle group was what helped in his velocity. Its amazing how it takes the whole body to get perfection out of one little thing like throwing a ball.

[boltaneer]

It also probably helped getting a real quarterbacks coach to work with. Brian Schottenheimer wasn't one of the strong points of our coaching staff when Brees was here.

[theAPAOps5]

It also probably helped getting a real quarterbacks coach to work with. Brian Schottenheimer wasn't one of the strong points of our coaching staff when Brees was here.

Norv will definitely help Rivers. He is a great offensive coordinator and QB coach. Its just his head coaching where he sucks.