Dr. Z says something shocking! (TD HOF comment)

[DomCasual]

Okay, I'll admit up front. It's hypocritical to read Dr. Z as much as I b**** about him. But I check out CNNSI once or twice a week, and he's always right there. It's just so easy to click on his link to see what little irritating blurb he's going to have this week.

So, this week, he mentions the Broncos and the Hall of Fame. He starts by backhanding Broncos who have gotten stiffed over the years, and then mentions TD. I was surprised to hear him say that he'll be TD's advocate this fall. I am starting to wonder if TD might just have a chance to sneak in. I seem to have started hearing and reading a little more of this type of sentiment of late.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/08/03/hall.of.fame/index.html

Doug of New York brings up something I hear every year at this time. The Broncos, who have been to six Super Bowls, have only one Hall of Famer? Is this fair? Is this just? "What about Gradishar, Mecklenburg, Zimmerman, Little and Davis?" he asks. And I could add Alzado and Jackson and my personal choices, Richie, Tombstone, Jackson. Great players all, but not the greatest, except for Jackson. But when Terrell Davis comes up this January, you're going to see some real action. The anti faction will say his career was too short. The pro faction, of which I will be a member, will argue quality over quantity. And thank you for what you wrote.

[Man-Goblin]

Hopefully, articles like the one on Espn.com this week will start a movement. Media hacks are big-time bandwagoners.

[DomCasual]

Hopefully, articles like the one on Espn.com this week will start a movement. Media hacks are big-time bandwagoners.

Dude, I just said almost the exact same thing in the other thread.

You fargin' genius!

[Man-Goblin]

Dude, I just said almost the exact same thing in the other thread.

You fargin' genius!

The movement has begun.

[DomCasual]

The movement has begun.

Let the somanumbatching iceholes take note. Those media bastages better put some of the somanumbatching Broncos in the Hall, or this is fargin' war!

[Man-Goblin]

Let the somanumbatching iceholes take note. Those media bastages better put some of the somanumbatching Broncos in the Hall, or this is fargin' war!

I have long said Davis won't get in, but if old fools like Z are coming around on the issue we could very well see Davis and Sharpe go in together next year (I think Sharpe is eligible?). That would be awesome.

[Jason in LA]

I've written long winded posts on why TD should be in the HOF. I'm planning to send it to each of the HOF voters. Maybe I can convince some of the voters who are unware of a lot of the facts. TD accomplished more in just 4 years than most RBs in the history of the game have accomplished. People look at longivety and ignor the accomplishments. I think longivety is important, but in some situations it's overrated.

[2KBack]

before this turns into another ugly battle of who is HOF worthy, I quickly want to throw support towards TD, whom I thnk is worthy.

[Atwater His Ass]

ill belive it when i see it

[Eli_Cash]

Here's a fun game:

Who's career would you rather have?

TD or Curtis Martin?


I know I'd take TD every time and twice on sunday....

[broncosteven]

"Doug of New York brings up something I hear every year at this time."

Is Doug B-Love?

[Jason in LA]

Here's a fun game:

Who's career would you rather have?

TD or Curtis Martin?


I know I'd take TD every time and twice on sunday....

Curtis Martin, and Tim Brown, has been part of my argument on why longevity...in certain situations, can be overrated. When were either of those two guys ever great? Very good for a very long time does not equal greatness. I find it funny that some people do equate it to greatness. Martin was a very good player. But when was he ever a special player? Same with Jerome Bettis, who some seem to think will be going to the HOF.

TD was a special player. No question about that. If he had come back and ran for a few more above average seasons, like 1100 yards or so, he'd have 10,000 yards and be a shoe in. He'd have longevity. Why does does a bunch of average seasons at the tail end of a career enhance great seasons? A player was either great or not. TD would be no greater if he ran for a few average seasons at the end of his career, but he'd be going to the HOF. It doesn't make much sense.

If you list accomplishments, TD beats out Martin by a mile. It's note even a comparison. So how will it look if Martin makes the HOF and TD doesn't?

[Man-Goblin]

Curtis Martin, and Tim Brown, has been part of my argument on why longevity...in certain situations, can be overrated. When were either of those two guys ever great? Very good for a very long time does not equal greatness. I find it funny that some people do equate it to greatness. Martin was a very good player. But when was he ever a special player? Same with Jerome Bettis, who some seem to think will be going to the HOF.

TD was a special player. No question about that. If he had come back and ran for a few more above average seasons, like 1100 yards or so, he'd have 10,000 yards and be a shoe in. He'd have longevity. Why does does a bunch of average seasons at the tail end of a career enhance great seasons? A player was either great or not. TD would be no greater if he ran for a few average seasons at the end of his career, but he'd be going to the HOF. It doesn't make much sense.

If you list accomplishments, TD beats out Martin by a mile. It's note even a comparison. So how will it look if Martin makes the HOF and TD doesn't?

Outstanding post.

[Crushaholic]

The movement has begun.

Don't forget to flush.

[B-Love]

"Doug of New York brings up something I hear every year at this time."

Is Doug B-Love?

Ha ha, nope my name is Brian.

But I do spend alot of time at barstools spreading the evil truth about the=Broncos and the Hall of Fame.

[B-Love]

Curtis Martin, and Tim Brown, has been part of my argument on why longevity...in certain situations, can be overrated. When were either of those two guys ever great? Very good for a very long time does not equal greatness. I find it funny that some people do equate it to greatness. Martin was a very good player. But when was he ever a special player? Same with Jerome Bettis, who some seem to think will be going to the HOF.

TD was a special player. No question about that. If he had come back and ran for a few more above average seasons, like 1100 yards or so, he'd have 10,000 yards and be a shoe in. He'd have longevity. Why does does a bunch of average seasons at the tail end of a career enhance great seasons? A player was either great or not. TD would be no greater if he ran for a few average seasons at the end of his career, but he'd be going to the HOF. It doesn't make much sense.

If you list accomplishments, TD beats out Martin by a mile. It's note even a comparison. So how will it look if Martin makes the HOF and TD doesn't?


That's why Art Monk isn't in either; most writers don't believe he was ever GREAT. And neither do I.

Hell I think Tim Brown was better than Monk and is more deserving than Monk. Tim Brown ran every route often, compared to Monk who got downfield only occasionally.

And unlike Monk who was usually the 2nd or 3rd most feared weapon on his team, Tim Brown was the most feared weapon on his team for most of his prime.

When Denver faced Washingotn, I was worried about the Hogs pounding us, and Gary Clark getting behind us. I wasn't worried about Art Monk's slants and 12 yard hitches, and Intermediate crosses.

[DomCasual]

When Denver faced Washingotn, I was worried about the Hogs pounding us, and Gary Clark getting behind us. I wasn't worried about Art Monk's slants and 12 yard hitches, and Intermediate crosses.

I bet you never even thought about Timmy Smith. :nutkick

That's a game I'd just as soon never see again.

[CBF1]

I think I love Jason <3 <3 <3

[Jason in LA]

I think I love Jason <3 <3 <3

You know I'm not throwing that kind of party. ;D

[Rohirrim]

Gale Sayers is in. TD was better. Seems right to me.

[DomCasual]

You know I'm not throwing that kind of party. ;D

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Kaylore]

Gale Sayers is in. TD was better. Seems right to me.

/end thread ;D

[TexanBob]

ill believe it when i see it

Me too. I *want* Davis to get in but I've heard the media soapbox things before and then fail to deliver in crunch time.

IMO, putting in Davis doesn't make up for the other Broncos slighted. I tend to lean towards candidacies that also added something new to the game. Mecklenburg deserves to be in because he was one of the first LBs to line up all over the field creating mismatches. As much as I root for several Broncos to get in, I think the most overlooked is Meck. How many guys could have pulled off what he did during his career, especially as a low-round draft pick?

[TexanBob]

So how will it look if Martin makes the HOF and TD doesn't?

Like the East Coast Media Bias (ECMB) is alive and well, just as it always is.

[OrangeShadow]

Let the somanumbatching iceholes take note. Those media bastages better put some of the somanumbatching Broncos in the Hall, or this is fargin' war!

you two are ****in weirddddddddd lol


nice to see some broncos getting noticed

[Atwater His Ass]

It really becomes apparant how political the HOF is when you read this article. Things to the effect"I vote for their guy to clear to table so they'll vote for my guys" even when it's implied he doesn't think the people he's voting for deserve the HOF, he just wants them out of the way so he can push his own candidates. A freaking joke and a disgrace to the NFL.

I know it's for different reasons, but I'm glad Mike Dikta is boycotting his HOF induction.

[DomCasual]

It really becomes apparant how political the HOF is when you read this article. Things to the effect"I vote for their guy to clear to table so they'll vote for my guys" even when it's implied he doesn't think the people he's voting for deserve the HOF, he just wants them out of the way so he can push his own candidates. A freaking joke and a disgrace to the NFL.

I know it's for different reasons, but I'm glad Mike Dikta is boycotting his HOF induction.

The system just needs to be changed, period. Dr. Z is the poster child for it. I guess he must have been a relevant sportswriter at some point. I guess he must have known something about the sport he covers at some point. I guess. Now, he's a blowhard elitist that does very little to disguise his feelings of superiority towards the people that read his column (mailbag, really). And from a player's perspective, if you don't kiss his ass - if he doesn't like you, personally - you pay.

And that's just it. You do pay, because he has power in the form of a Hall of Fame vote (one of only 40). Tom Nalen will be a guy some will argue should get in. Dr. Z has stated before that he doesn't like the fact that the Broncos O-Line hasn't talked to the media. Even when he has paid Nalen a compliment over the years, it has been backhanded. There is no way Nalen gets his vote - not necessarily because of his worthiness or lack thereof, but more because he rubs Dr. Z the wrong way.

That just stinks. It's an antiquated system. I wish more players would boycott it. But, as a player, you are in one of three groups. The largest group, by far, is players that aren't deserving of Hall of Fame consideration. What are they going to say about the process? Who cares what a guy with 2,500 career rushing yards has to say about the Hall of Fame? The second group is guys who are on the bubble. What are they going to say? They want to get in. Start criticizing the process, and you can kiss the opportunity good-bye. The last group is those who have gotten in. They are generally pretty giddy about it; and for whatever reason, they don't seem willing to bite the hand that has fed them.

So, the end result is that we just continue on with a stupid, antiquated system that gives power to idiots like Dr. Z.

[B-Love]

I bet you never even thought about Timmy Smith. :nutkick

That's a game I'd just as soon never see again.

Oh yeah, god I remember getting drink pregame thinking "6 hours from now and the Broncos will be champs." Ugh.

Tiny Tim could have run for 200 that day dude. Did you watch the America's Game for the 87 Skins. Let them describe what should be obvious to most of us. Timmy Smith had enormous holes all day and they were responsible for 98% of his yards.

[Atwater His Ass]

The system just needs to be changed, period. Dr. Z is the poster child for it. I guess he must have been a relevant sportswriter at some point. I guess he must have known something about the sport he covers at some point. I guess. Now, he's a blowhard elitist that does very little to disguise his feelings of superiority towards the people that read his column (mailbag, really). And from a player's perspective, if you don't kiss his ass - if he doesn't like you, personally - you pay.

And that's just it. You do pay, because he has power in the form of a Hall of Fame vote (one of only 40). Tom Nalen will be a guy some will argue should get in. Dr. Z has stated before that he doesn't like the fact that the Broncos O-Line hasn't talked to the media. Even when he has paid Nalen a compliment over the years, it has been backhanded. There is no way Nalen gets his vote - not necessarily because of his worthiness or lack thereof, but more because he rubs Dr. Z the wrong way.

That just stinks. It's an antiquated system. I wish more players would boycott it. But, as a player, you are in one of three groups. The largest group, by far, is players that aren't deserving of Hall of Fame consideration. What are they going to say about the process? Who cares what a guy with 2,500 career rushing yards has to say about the Hall of Fame? The second group is guys who are on the bubble. What are they going to say? They want to get in. Start criticizing the process, and you can kiss the opportunity good-bye. The last group is those who have gotten in. They are generally pretty giddy about it; and for whatever reason, they don't seem willing to bite the hand that has fed them.

So, the end result is that we just continue on with a stupid, antiquated system that gives power to idiots like Dr. Z.

Rep.

[azbroncfan]

Now people went from hating DR Z to loving him.

[bronco610]

I have one thing to say about TD in the HOF. Exactly how many backs have over 2000 yards in the history of the NFL ???? NUFF SAID !!!!!!!!!!

[DomCasual]

Now people went from hating DR Z to loving him.

I wouldn't go that far. I don't see anyone in this thread saying anything really nice about him.

[Atwater His Ass]

I have one thing to say about TD in the HOF. Exactly how many backs have over 2000 yards in the history of the NFL ???? NUFF SAID !!!!!!!!!!

would you put jamal lewis in the hall?

[That One Guy]

would you put jamal lewis in the hall?

That's a pretty common response when folks mention his statistical achievements. Lewis going to jail could be a huge factor in TD not making it. Had he not gone to jail, the 2000 milestone wouldn't be tarnished like it is.

[vancejohnson82]

they should let players vote on this thing

like players from the era of the nominees....form a player committee...i'm sure there would be DBs who played against the redskins that would vote Art Monk in....same thing for TD

[TotallyScrewed]

IMHO, TD was THE reason for the back-to-back SB victories. THE REASON. Without him they were close but not good enough. With him, none could stand before the Broncos and win...none. That is, he didn't just put them over the top...he changed the dynamic completely and he elevated the play of everyone around him. John knew he didn't have to be perfect. The defense could live on gambles. The opposition was often turned into a one-dimensional attack to try to catch up. He changed the game.

[Maximus]

Terrell Davis... A good RB but not memorable to general fans. The comparisons to Gayle Sayers end at longevity. The exploits of sayers in his short career far outweight TD's. In my opinion this is his major downfall for the Hall. TD rushed for over 2000 yards and has a couple of rings and.... What else did he do that would impress non donkey fans or sports writers??

Sayers... 6 touchdowns in one game... Lead the league in rushing. Returned numerous punts for TD's... Everyone has seen the highlights... Davis just doesn't have the same luster as Sayers.

[Maximus]

Curtis Martin, and Tim Brown, has been part of my argument on why longevity...in certain situations, can be overrated. When were either of those two guys ever great? Very good for a very long time does not equal greatness. I find it funny that some people do equate it to greatness. Martin was a very good player. But when was he ever a special player? Same with Jerome Bettis, who some seem to think will be going to the HOF.

TD was a special player. No question about that. If he had come back and ran for a few more above average seasons, like 1100 yards or so, he'd have 10,000 yards and be a shoe in. He'd have longevity. Why does does a bunch of average seasons at the tail end of a career enhance great seasons? A player was either great or not. TD would be no greater if he ran for a few average seasons at the end of his career, but he'd be going to the HOF. It doesn't make much sense.

If you list accomplishments, TD beats out Martin by a mile. It's note even a comparison. So how will it look if Martin makes the HOF and TD doesn't?

In a collision sport... Longevity cannot be dismissed as a barometer of greatness. Especially when players like Tim Brown, Bettis and Curtis Martin put up consistent statistics.

[Kaylore]

Terrell Davis... A good RB but not memorable to general fans. The comparisons to Gayle Sayers end at longevity. The exploits of sayers in his short career far outweight TD's. In my opinion this is his major downfall for the Hall. TD rushed for over 2000 yards and has a couple of rings and.... What else did he do that would impress non donkey fans or sports writers??

Sayers... 6 touchdowns in one game... Lead the league in rushing League Mvp 4 times. Returned numerous punts for TD's... Everyone has seen the highlights... Davis just doesn't have the same luster as Sayers.

This is the type of post I'd expect from you, minimus. It's a bunch of crap. TD has more total yardage than Sayers did and he never played special teams. He has the record for total yards in a season regular season and playoffs. Total Touchdowns in a season including playoffs and he was two super bowls, unlike Sayers. He's also a Super Bowl MVP and a league MVP and his non MVP seasons were superior to Sayers'. Nice try, but you're pathetic attempt to minimize TD's exploits aren't how the rest of the league see him.

[elsid13]

Let see League MVP and Superbowl MVP. Lead the league in rushing twice, has more 100 games in the playoffs then anyone, and was consider the best player/rb in the NLF for a couple of years.

I hate the fact that people think Bettis is HOF worther because he stay healthy for long time and fell forward for 3 yards. But TD doesn't get the same respect.

[Maximus]

So Davis has more total yards than Sayers... Sayers yards came in more spectacular fashion... The precursor to Barry Sanders.
I'm not going to debate statistics because we can all quote them. The difference is how these players accomplished their feats. Again Terrell Davis is forgettable among general football fans. When Devon Hester was returning punts fans and sports writers didn't compare him to Terrell Davis... They compared him to Gayle Sayers... because sayers is the only player that was more or as spectacular in that regard.

I don't have to minimize his accomplishments comparing him to players that fit in his mold does the job quite nicely. He rushed for 2000 yards in a 16 game season... So did Eric Dickerson, Jamal Lewis, Barry Sanders and O.J. Simpson. Simpson did it in 14 games and with less carries. Matter of fact all of the others did it with less carries than Davis.

When davis ran for 2008 yards "In 16 regular season games, Davis ran against only four defenses that ended that season ranked among the top half of the league in fewest yards allowed. San Diego was the No. 1 defense in 1998 and Davis ran for 69 and 74 yards against the Chargers. He ran for just 29 yards in a game No. 15 loss to the New York Giants as he was held under 100 yards five different times. He ran for 208 yards against Seattle.
"

[TotallyScrewed]

Nobody ever said you couldn't stop Davis if you sold out to do so. Put eight or nine in the box and you have a chance. Same would be true of nearly every back. The first San Diego game, Brister was the QB...now what would you do?? Play back fearing Brister or crowd the line forcing Brister to beat you?? The second game, Denver is up 21-10 at the half and coasts the rest of the way winning 31-16. Davis has to set for a 3.1 ypc as Denver plays eat the clock.

That same year that Davis got 2008, he sat for numerous second halves.

I seem to recall Davis being effective on ST's too. That's how he got noticed as a matter of fact.

As far a G. Sayers is concerned, and I've not watched the guy or know his team, but from what I've heard, it's that Sayers had nobody with him and the defense knew it and yet he posted good numbers. That doesn't dimenish what Davis did, though. Everybody knew who and what TD was during his peak years. Nice try for a fader.

[DomCasual]

So Davis has more total yards than Sayers... Sayers yards came in more spectacular fashion... The precursor to Barry Sanders.
I'm not going to debate statistics because we can all quote them. The difference is how these players accomplished their feats. Again Terrell Davis is forgettable among general football fans. When Devon Hester was returning punts fans and sports writers didn't compare him to Terrell Davis... They compared him to Gayle Sayers... because sayers is the only player that was more or as spectacular in that regard.

I don't have to minimize his accomplishments comparing him to players that fit in his mold does the job quite nicely. He rushed for 2000 yards in a 16 game season... So did Eric Dickerson, Jamal Lewis, Barry Sanders and O.J. Simpson. Simpson did it in 14 games and with less carries. Matter of fact all of the others did it with less carries than Davis.

When davis ran for 2008 yards "In 16 regular season games, Davis ran against only four defenses that ended that season ranked among the top half of the league in fewest yards allowed. San Diego was the No. 1 defense in 1998 and Davis ran for 69 and 74 yards against the Chargers. He ran for just 29 yards in a game No. 15 loss to the New York Giants as he was held under 100 yards five different times. He ran for 208 yards against Seattle.
"

Well, if you want to go there, how about this? During the season in which TD ran for over 2,000 yards, he sat out almost three full games that had turned into blowouts. It was very common for him to come out for the second half, play the first drive, then sit for the rest of the game. The Broncos absolutely pounded teams that year. So, where does he end up that year if he plays a full season? 2,300? 2,400? Who knows?

And of the guys you mentioned above 2,000 yards, what do they all have in common? They're all in the Hall of Fame (other than Lewis, who is still playing). You make it sound as if it's commonplace - yet it almost never happens. LT didn't do it. Larry Johnson didn't do it. Shaun Alexander didn't do it.

But what stands out to me as much as anything is TD's playoff performances. Seven straight playoff games (including two Super Bowls), he went over 100 yards. In those games, he scored eleven touchdowns. Think about that for a minute. When opposing defenses were supposed to be playing their best, TD dominated. His eleven TDs - if you were to extrapolate it over a 16 game schedule - would put him at 25 TDs; in playoff-intense games. The NFL record for a season is 28.

Lastly, you can't argue that he was just another guy on a good team during the Broncos' run. He elevated them to back-to-back world championships. They don't win if it isn't for TD. That's what Hall of Famers do.

Good post, though. I just disagree with you.

[Jason in LA]

Terrell Davis... A good RB but not memorable to general fans. The comparisons to Gayle Sayers end at longevity. The exploits of sayers in his short career far outweight TD's. In my opinion this is his major downfall for the Hall. TD rushed for over 2000 yards and has a couple of rings and.... What else did he do that would impress non donkey fans or sports writers??

Sayers... 6 touchdowns in one game... Lead the league in rushing. Returned numerous punts for TD's... Everyone has seen the highlights... Davis just doesn't have the same luster as Sayers.


So how many playoff games did Sayers win? Oh yeah, that's right. The Bears never made the playoffs with Sayers.

I've never been a fan of scat backs. They are fun to watch, but they don't produce wins.

[DivineLegion]

Ironicly when they were showing Charlie Sanders induction announcment clip above him was a huge banner of TD running over a colt...

[Atwater His Ass]

That's a pretty common response when folks mention his statistical achievements. Lewis going to jail could be a huge factor in TD not making it. Had he not gone to jail, the 2000 milestone wouldn't be tarnished like it is.

2000 yards is a great accomplishment no matter who does it. But I wouldn't but lewis in the hall and i don't think many others would either. It's bad to base TD's hall canidancy on 2000 yards alone. He was so much more for Denver. We don't win super bowls without td. a greater compliment cannot be said.

[Jason in LA]

So Davis has more total yards than Sayers... Sayers yards came in more spectacular fashion... The precursor to Barry Sanders.
I'm not going to debate statistics because we can all quote them. The difference is how these players accomplished their feats. Again Terrell Davis is forgettable among general football fans. When Devon Hester was returning punts fans and sports writers didn't compare him to Terrell Davis... They compared him to Gayle Sayers... because sayers is the only player that was more or as spectacular in that regard.

I don't have to minimize his accomplishments comparing him to players that fit in his mold does the job quite nicely. He rushed for 2000 yards in a 16 game season... So did Eric Dickerson, Jamal Lewis, Barry Sanders and O.J. Simpson. Simpson did it in 14 games and with less carries. Matter of fact all of the others did it with less carries than Davis.

When davis ran for 2008 yards "In 16 regular season games, Davis ran against only four defenses that ended that season ranked among the top half of the league in fewest yards allowed. San Diego was the No. 1 defense in 1998 and Davis ran for 69 and 74 yards against the Chargers. He ran for just 29 yards in a game No. 15 loss to the New York Giants as he was held under 100 yards five different times. He ran for 208 yards against Seattle.
"


I really don't care for a player looking spectacular. I want them to produce. I've seen scat backs put up big numbers with high light runs but the offense didn't put points on the board and the team lost. TD had a lot of games where he didn't have spectacular runs, but the team had long drives all game long because they were always in 2nd and short and third and short. That's the key to long drives. Not a spectacular run here and there.

As for TD not playing against tough defenses in '98, that's a complete joke. Lets look at the playoffs, when TD ran against some of the best defenses in the league. In '98 TD ran for 199 yards against the Dolphins who had the 3rd ranked defense, 6th against the run. And he hardly played in the 2nd half. Against the Jets the next week, who were 6th in the league in defense, TD ran for 167 yards. Against the Falcons, who were 8th overall and 2nd against the run, TD ran for 107 yards.

We can go back to the '97 season. The Packers had the 9th rated defense, and TD ran for 157 yards, and didn't even play in the 2nd quarter. The Steelers had the 5th ranked defense, and the top ranked run defense, and were at home, and TD ran for 139 yards. KC had the 5th ranked run defense, and TD ran for 101 yards against them.

TD, in the playoffs, against some of the toughest defenses in the league, ran for over 1100 yards in only 8 games. So I don't want to hear anything about the defenses that he played against. Going by the stats, he's the greatest playoff RB ever. Highest yards per game by over 40 yards. I believe he averaged 152 yards per game. The next closest was John Riggins at 111 yards per game. Highest yards per carry by a lot. 5.5 yards per carry. Eric Dickerson is second with 5.2 yards per carry. And TD has the record for most 100 yard games in a row.

[DivineLegion]

2000 yards is a great accomplishment no matter who does it. But I wouldn't but lewis in the hall and i don't think many others would either. It's bad to base TD's hall canidancy on 2000 yards alone. He was so much more for Denver. We don't win super bowls without td. a greater compliment cannot be said.

Another random nugget im taking from the Hall of Fame ceremony today...When they boomer announced Irvan to the podium he mentioned how he was one of the best ever in the playoffs. TD was one of the greatest running back in the playoffs and his regular season numbers of course suggest nothing less.

[Jason in LA]

In a collision sport... Longevity cannot be dismissed as a barometer of greatness. Especially when players like Tim Brown, Bettis and Curtis Martin put up consistent statistics.

My point was not to dismiss longevity. I said that in some situations it is overrated. I didn't say every situation. If a player was never great at any moment in his career, I'm not going to look at him as a great player because he was very good for a long time. Brown, Martin and Bettis were very good. But when were they ever great? Can you actually say that Martin or Bettis were better than Davis? You can say they were able to play a lot longer, which allowed them to compile more stats. But they weren't in TD's class. Combine the accomplishments of Bettis and Martin and they still don't come close to TD's accomplsihements. Throw in Brown's accomplishments and they still aren't close.

Longevity will allow a player to compile a lot of stats. Would anybody in their right mind say that Martis and Bettis were the 4th and 5th best RBs? Or that Brown is the 2nd or 3rd greatest WR ever? Nope. Longevity allowed them to move up the all time list, not greatness.

[Jason in LA]

As for Jamal Lewis, he had one great season. Since then he's been average at best.

[gunns]

2000 yards is a great accomplishment no matter who does it. But I wouldn't but lewis in the hall and i don't think many others would either. It's bad to base TD's hall canidancy on 2000 yards alone. He was so much more for Denver. We don't win super bowls without td. a greater compliment cannot be said.

Lewis got large lump of those yards in one game. TD sat out 3 games. I just don't see that Jamal did anything but that.

I hope Dr. Z's influence helps. But as Bowlen has said the HOF has it's problems.

[elsid13]

My point was not to dismiss longevity. I said that in some situations it is overrated. I didn't say every situation. If a player was never great at any moment in his career, I'm not going to look at him as a great player because he was very good for a long time. Brown, Martin and Bettis were very good. But when were they ever great? Can you actually say that Martin or Bettis were better than Davis? You can say they were able to play a lot longer, which allowed them to compile more stats. But they weren't in TD's class. Combine the accomplishments of Bettis and Martin and they still don't come close to TD's accomplsihements. Throw in Brown's accomplishments and they still aren't close.

Longevity will allow a player to compile a lot of stats. Would anybody in their right mind say that Martis and Bettis were the 4th and 5th best RBs? Or that Brown is the 2nd or 3rd greatest WR ever? Nope. Longevity allowed them to move up the all time list, not greatness.

Nice post. I got in arguement recently with a Steeler fan about Bettis. He basically said Bettis was a first time HOF inductee. I said he didn't even deserve to be in the HOF. He was very good player but wasn't special. I ask did ever win rushing title? was he ever the MVP of Superbowl, NFL? Was he ever consider the best at his position when he was in the league? Those are major question you need to ask and answer before being consider for HOF.

IMO the RB of the 90s - Smith, Sanders, TD and Faulk

[TheChamp24]

So, if we say longevity plays a big part, does Vinny Testaverde deserve it? I think football is the only sport where you need to look at the impact of some players short careers.
As well, I think Curtis Martin does deserve the HoF a lot more than Bettis. I think what really made the case for Bettis was the fact his last 5 years, he got 38 touchdowns and 2700+ yards playing a minimul role.

[Atwater His Ass]

longevity is a very poor attribute to consider for the hall of fame.

imo, neither martin or bettis deserve the hall. they were never the best at their position, they were never critical to their teams success like davis was to denver. hell, in the year bettis won the super bowl he was nothing more than a bit player short yardage back.

[Jason in LA]

So, if we say longevity plays a big part, does Vinny Testaverde deserve it? I think football is the only sport where you need to look at the impact of some players short careers.
As well, I think Curtis Martin does deserve the HoF a lot more than Bettis. I think what really made the case for Bettis was the fact his last 5 years, he got 38 touchdowns and 2700+ yards playing a minimul role.


Testaverde is a great example of longevity being overrated in certain situations. I looked up the numbers. He's top ten in passing attempts, completions, yards, and TDs. He's 6th in three of the catagories. He's 9th in passing TDs.

So, is he a HOFer? He's got the stats. He's got longevity. But you won't find anybody anywhere who will put him in the HOF.

I also agree that Martin is more deserving than Bettis. I liked Martin a lot. I wouldn't say he was great, but he was consistantly very good.

What did Bettis do the last five or so years? Not much of anything. He had one year at 1,072 yards, which by today's standards is really just average. Then he followed that up with four years under 1,000 yards, with only 368 his last year. So he runs for 3,858 yards his final five seasons. Take away those five average to below average years, and Bettis is left with 9,804 yards. Now, with under 10,000 yards, is Bettis a HOFer? So, five average to below average seasons, which gives him longevity, puts him in the HOF? Does that make any sense?

Apply that to TD. If TD was able to stay healthy enough to play another five seasons, all average to below average, he'd have over 10,000 yards. Would those five average to below average seasons make TD a greater player? He would be over 10,000 yards. He would have longevity. But that wouldn't make his three seasons of being over 1,500 yards, which included a rushing title, league MVP, Super Bowl MVP, All Pro honors, and two Super Bowls, any greater. So why does a player need longevity when they have already achieved greatness?

[TheChamp24]

Testaverde is a great example of longevity being overrated in certain situations. I looked up the numbers. He's top ten in passing attempts, completions, yards, and TDs. He's 6th in three of the catagories. He's 9th in passing TDs.

So, is he a HOFer? He's got the stats. He's got longevity. But you won't find anybody anywhere who will put him in the HOF.

I also agree that Martin is more deserving than Bettis. I liked Martin a lot. I wouldn't say he was great, but he was consistantly very good.

What did Bettis do the last five or so years? Not much of anything. He had one year at 1,072 yards, which by today's standards is really just average. Then he followed that up with four years under 1,000 yards, with only 368 his last year. So he runs for 3,858 yards his final five seasons. Take away those five average to below average years, and Bettis is left with 9,804 yards. Now, with under 10,000 yards, is Bettis a HOFer? So, five average to below average seasons, which gives him longevity, puts him in the HOF? Does that make any sense?

Apply that to TD. If TD was able to stay healthy enough to play another five seasons, all average to below average, he'd have over 10,000 yards. Would those five average to below average seasons make TD a greater player? He would be over 10,000 yards. He would have longevity. But that wouldn't make his three seasons of being over 1,500 yards, which included a rushing title, league MVP, Super Bowl MVP, All Pro honors, and two Super Bowls, any greater. So why does a player need longevity when they have already achieved greatness?

Agree all the way around. Bettis is only getting in because of his last 5 years when he was able to pad his stats by producing below average seasons which is ridiculous.
What really sores me is people saying Tiki Barber deserves to go into the HoF. Now if he gets in, that would be horrible IMO.

[bronco610]

would you put jamal lewis in the hall?

Did he set the record for the most yards in a season including the play offs? was he ever a SB MVP?

[-Slap-]

Now people went from hating DR Z to loving him.

Because it's easy to jerk people off when you're telling them something they want to hear.

Right now, Dr Zippy is swapping e-mails with some other crusty relic of a sportshack - undoubtedly another self absorbed fossil who references some redhead in each article like we give a **** about his personal life - and he's enjoying a good laugh about getting Broncos' fans hopes up.

[maher_tyler]

I really don't care for a player looking spectacular. I want them to produce. I've seen scat backs put up big numbers with high light runs but the offense didn't put points on the board and the team lost. TD had a lot of games where he didn't have spectacular runs, but the team had long drives all game long because they were always in 2nd and short and third and short. That's the key to long drives. Not a spectacular run here and there.

As for TD not playing against tough defenses in '98, that's a complete joke. Lets look at the playoffs, when TD ran against some of the best defenses in the league. In '98 TD ran for 199 yards against the Dolphins who had the 3rd ranked defense, 6th against the run. And he hardly played in the 2nd half. Against the Jets the next week, who were 6th in the league in defense, TD ran for 167 yards. Against the Falcons, who were 8th overall and 2nd against the run, TD ran for 107 yards.

We can go back to the '97 season. The Packers had the 9th rated defense, and TD ran for 157 yards, and didn't even play in the 2nd quarter. The Steelers had the 5th ranked defense, and the top ranked run defense, and were at home, and TD ran for 139 yards. KC had the 5th ranked run defense, and TD ran for 101 yards against them.

TD, in the playoffs, against some of the toughest defenses in the league, ran for over 1100 yards in only 8 games. So I don't want to hear anything about the defenses that he played against. Going by the stats, he's the greatest playoff RB ever. Highest yards per game by over 40 yards. I believe he averaged 152 yards per game. The next closest was John Riggins at 111 yards per game. Highest yards per carry by a lot. 5.5 yards per carry. Eric Dickerson is second with 5.2 yards per carry. And TD has the record for most 100 yard games in a row.

Good post

[maher_tyler]

Nice post. I got in arguement recently with a Steeler fan about Bettis. He basically said Bettis was a first time HOF inductee. I said he didn't even deserve to be in the HOF. He was very good player but wasn't special. I ask did ever win rushing title? was he ever the MVP of Superbowl, NFL? Was he ever consider the best at his position when he was in the league? Those are major question you need to ask and answer before being consider for HOF.

IMO the RB of the 90s - Smith, Sanders, TD and Faulk

Thurman Thomas

[Spider]

I have always argued TD belongs in the HOF ............now we need to get Gradishar and Louis Wright, Floyd Little in .......

[That One Guy]

The worst part is that you can argue how great TD was but I'd almost put my money on Bettis and Martin making it... and I'd say Tiki is almost on par with TD in chances. Tiki never did anything special but he got hyped in NY, got a lot of talk in his last year due to the retirement stuff... and went on to do TV. TD does TV but he's not as hyped on it as Tiki will be. HOF is all about hype.

[Spider]

. HOF is all about hype. spot on ........

[Atwater His Ass]

Did he set the record for the most yards in a season including the play offs? was he ever a SB MVP?

The question was posed because someone made the claim that TD should get in based on 2000 alone. If you read my previous post, you'd see how I felt about it.