Here's a Shocker...

[Traveler]

House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) said Monday that a strongly positive report on progress on Iraq by Army Gen. David Petraeus likely would split Democrats in the House and impede his party's efforts to press for a timetable to end the war.

cont...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/30/AR2007073001380.html

By a show of replies, how many folks out there expect that General Petraeus' report in September will be anything but positive?

And how many folks expected the Dems to already begin signaling their surrender on continuing to bring this war to an end?

Mind boggling!

[REB]

Well just like Vietnam we're allowing this "war" to become a political battle which is just ridiculous. Our representatives need to get their heads out of their a$$es and decide whether to go all out with it or not. In war you either go all out or not at all. I will never understand what makes us think we can be half a$$ about it and expect to win. The other side doesn't give a rats ass about politically correct crap and the like. Like Ron Paul said...The congress did not declare war they just gave the president the authority to use force if he saw fit. Can we please get back to the Constitution?

[The Lone Bolt]

House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) said Monday that a strongly positive report on progress on Iraq by Army Gen. David Petraeus likely would split Democrats in the House and impede his party's efforts to press for a timetable to end the war.

cont...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/30/AR2007073001380.html

By a show of replies, how many folks out there expect that General Petraeus' report in September will be anything but positive?

And how many folks expected the Dems to already begin signaling their surrender on continuing to bring this war to an end?

Mind boggling!



If Patreus produces a report that's positive but blatantly biased and usubstantiated then I doubt that it will sway anyone. If on the other hand he has the facts to back it up then it will no doubt have a significant impact.

[Crushaholic]

If Patreus produces a report that's positive but blatantly biased and usubstantiated then I doubt that it will sway anyone. If on the other hand he has the facts to back it up then it will no doubt have a significant impact.

Exactly. It all depends how he presents it. If he only talks in generalities, he might not sway any minds.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

If Patreus produces a report that's positive but blatantly biased and usubstantiated then I doubt that it will sway anyone. If on the other hand he has the facts to back it up then it will no doubt have a significant impact.The "facts" over there in that sh*thole are pretty obvious.

[TailgateNut]

I'm pretty sure Petreaus knows a negative report will be his demise! The writings' on the wall. He'll be another scapegoat!

[Chupacabra]

"I think there would be enough support in that group to want to stay the course and if the Republicans were to stay united as they have been, then it would be a problem for us," Clyburn said.

Positive report from Petreaus = a "problem" ???
Not surprising in the least. I wouldn't expect otherwise from people so blinded by politics and ideology to root against our troops and their successes.

[TailgateNut]

I wouldn't expect otherwise from people so blinded by politics and ideology to root against our troops and their successes.


Another idiotic assumption.

WE'RE against the ill conceived war based on lies.
We don't root against the troops.
We do however hope that all republicans slip, fall and break their f-ing necks in unison!

[Chupacabra]

Another idiotic assumption.

WE'RE against the ill conceived war based on lies.
We don't root against the troops.
We do however hope that all republicans slip, fall and break their f-ing necks in unison!

Question to you, sir:

When Petraeus comes back in Sept. with his report on the troop surge...do you hope it shows positive or negative results?

[TailgateNut]

Question to you, sir:

When Petraeus comes back in Sept. with his report on the troop surge...do you hope it shows positive or negative results?



I would hope positive, but I reserve judgement. I believe the Bush administration makes it nearly impossible for anyone serving to be honest.
Bush has shown that he surrounds himself and condones only "yes-men". Hence the reservation.

I will take his report with a grain of salt, incorporating news regarding injuries, attacks, casualties and success of the Iraqi goverment to form my opinion of the success of the surge.

[ant1999e]

I would hope positive, but I reserve judgement. I believe the Bush administration makes it nearly impossible for anyone serving to be honest.
Bush has shown that he surrounds himself and condones only "yes-men". Hence the reservation.

I will take his report with a grain of salt, incorporating news regarding injuries, attacks, casualties and success of the Iraqi goverment to form my opinion of the success of the surge.

Translation: It doesn't matter because the Democrats have already made up my mind.

[gunns]

Absolutely mind boggling. I don't believe the Dems realize that they were elected primarily on the premise that they would end this war. Positive or negative, I think we are way past that point. We have heard a ton of positives in the past from this administration only to have them proven to be bogus or half truths. It's time to end this thing and the Dem's are screwing themselves royal if they in anyway defend it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

"I think there would be enough support in that group to want to stay the course and if the Republicans were to stay united as they have been, then it would be a problem for us," Clyburn said.
Positive report from Petreaus = a "problem" ???
Not surprising in the least. I wouldn't expect otherwise from people so blinded by politics and ideology to root against our troops and their successes.Considering the non-stop BS the Bush cartel has fed the American people since Bush decided to invade Iraq, any "positive" reports are probably dubious at best.

And for the typical Bushbot BS of "either you are with us or against us", that tired sh*t played out long ago.

[TailgateNut]

Translation: It doesn't matter because the Democrats have already made up my mind.



AND???

**** Bush and **** his BS OIL WAR!
Everytime he and his YesMen oper their mouths, nothing but lies dribble out!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

http://images.salon.com/politics/war_room/src/war_room.gif (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/)War Room


<!-- -->
<script type="text/javascript" language="JavaScript1.1"> <!-- OAS_AD('Right'); //--> </script>http://oas.salon.com/rmads/RealMedia/ads/Creatives/default/empty.gif (http://oas.salon.com/rmads/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.salonmagazine.com/warroom.html/1956185666/Right/default/empty.gif/34623039643032633435646166316430)<noscript>http://judo.salon.com/RealMedia/ads/adstream_nx.cgi/www.salonmagazine.com/warroom.html@Right (http://judo.salon.com/RealMedia/ads/click_nx.cgi/www.salonmagazine.com/warroom.html@Right) </noscript>
Mixed messages (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2007/08/01/mixed/index.html)

Adm. Michael Mullen, the president's pick to become chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, on political progress in Iraq, July 31, 2007: (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-07-30-us-iraq_N.htm?csp=34) "There does not appear to be much political progress."


Dick Cheney, vice president of the United States, on political progress in Iraq, July 31, 2007: (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/31/lkl.01.html) "They have, in fact, passed about 60 pieces of legislation this year. They have been fairly productive. Now there are major issues yet to be addressed and be resolved that they are still working on. But they did -- I made it clear, for example, when I was there in May, that we didn't appreciate the notion that they were going [to] take a big part of the summer off. And they did cut that in half."


News item, Aug. 1, 2007: (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/08/01/ap3975200.html) "Iraq's largest Sunni Arab political bloc announced its withdrawal from the government Wednesday, threatening Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's efforts to seek reconciliation among the country's rival factions."


And one more news item, Aug. 1, 2007: (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/01/iraq.suicide.bomb/index.html?section=cnn_latest) "A fuel tanker packed with explosives detonated at a gas station Wednesday, killing at least 50 people and wounding 60 others in western Baghdad, the Interior Ministry said ... Earlier Wednesday, at least 15 people were killed and 20 others were wounded when a suicide car bomb exploded in a busy square in Baghdad's Karrada district, the Interior Ministry said."

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Rising to the humanitarian challenge in Iraq (http://www.oxfam.org.uk/what_we_do/issues/conflict_disasters/bp105_iraq.htm)

Armed violence is the greatest threat facing Iraqis, but the population is also experiencing another kind of crisis of an alarming scale and severity. Eight million people are in urgent need of emergency aid; that figure includes over two million who are displaced within the country, and more than two million refugees. Many more are living in poverty, without basic services, and increasingly threatened by disease and malnutrition. Despite the constraints imposed by violence, the government of Iraq, the United Nations, and international donors can do more to deliver humanitarian assistance to reduce unnecessary suffering. If people’s basic needs are left unattended, this will only serve to further destabilise the country.

Executive Summary

While horrific violence dominates the lives of millions of ordinary people inside Iraq, another kind of crisis, also due to the impact of war, has been slowly unfolding. Up to eight million people are now in need of emergency assistance. This figure includes:

* four million people who are ‘food-insecure and in dire need of different types of humanitarian assistance’
* more than two million displaced people inside Iraq
* over two million Iraqis in neighbouring countries, mainly Syria and Jordan, making this the fastest-growing refugee crisis in the world.

This paper describes the humanitarian situation facing ordinary Iraqis and argues that, while violence and a failure to protect fundamental human rights pose the greatest problems, humanitarian needs such as food, shelter, water and sanitation must be given more attention. Although responding to those needs is extremely challenging, given the lack of security and of competent national institutions, Oxfam and the NGO Coordination Committee in Iraq (NCCI) believe that more could be done. The government of Iraq could extend the distribution of food parcels, widen the coverage of emergency cash payments, decentralise decision-making and support civil society groups providing assistance. The international donors and UN agencies could intensify their efforts to coordinate, fund and deliver emergency aid. These measures will not transform the plight of Iraqis but they can help alleviate their suffering. The paper focuses on needs inside the country, which are less visible, and does not refer in detail to the refugees in neighbouring countries.

******************

Iraqis are suffering from a growing lack of food, shelter, water and sanitation, health care, education, and employment. Of the four million Iraqis who are dependent on food assistance, only 60 per cent currently have access to rations through the government-run Public Distribution System (PDS), down from 96 per cent in 2004.

Forty-three per cent of Iraqis suffer from ‘absolute poverty’. According to some estimates, over half the population are now without work. Children are hit the hardest by the decline in living standards. Child malnutrition rates have risen from 19 per cent before the US-led invasion in 2003 to 28 per cent now.

The situation is particularly hard for families driven from their homes by violence. The two million internally displaced people (IDPs) have no incomes to rely on and are running out of coping mechanisms. In 2006, 32 per cent of IDPs had no access to PDS food rations, while 51 per cent reported receiving food rations only sometimes.

The number of Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies has risen from 50 per cent to 70 per cent since 2003, while 80 per cent lack effective sanitation. The ‘brain drain’ that Iraq is experiencing is further stretching already inadequate public services, as thousands of medical staff, teachers, water engineers, and other professionals are forced to leave the country. At the end of 2006, perhaps 40 per cent had left already.

CONT.

[Play2win]

The only people that root against our Troops are the ones that support this war.

[REB]

I understand some of your guys points but what's the purpose? Aren't you tired? Aren't you tired of hating Bush? There is nothing you can do that is going to change anything till the vote. Maybe it's just me but it seems so useless and pointless to hash the same crap over and over again. Guess what? We get to vote again. Make it work!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I understand some of your guys points but what's the purpose? Aren't you tired? Aren't you tired of hating Bush? There is nothing you can do that is going to change anything till the vote. Maybe it's just me but it seems so useless and pointless to hash the same crap over and over again. Guess what? We get to vote again. Make it work!The biggest problem this country has is from people who condone the continued behavior and policy from Bush and his cronies by their silence.

The Sunni's quit the government again rendering any progress on the political front moot again. I've been saying it for 3 years, they are theocracy not interested in a democracy. The hate each to the point that killing each other is a daily occurrence. Our continued presence does nothing but fuel worldwide hatred for Americans and gives the radical factions of religion the best possible ammo for recruitment of potential terrorists.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sunni bloc quits Iraqi Cabinet (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070801/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_070801182014;_ylt=AkLC4UGEegd2HHuC_YCCcNcE1vA I)
By LAUREN FRAYER, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD - Baghdad shook with bombings and political upheaval Wednesday as the largest Sunni Arab bloc quit the government and a suicide attacker blew up his fuel tanker in one of several attacks that claimed 142 lives nationwide.

The Iraqi Accordance Front's withdrawal from the Cabinet leaves only two Sunnis in the 40-member body, undermining Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's efforts to pull together rival factions and pass reconciliation laws the U.S. considers benchmarks that could lead to sectarian reconciliation.

The U.S. military announced the deaths of four more American soldiers, including three killed in Baghdad on Tuesday by a powerful armor-piercing bomb. Washington says these types of bombs are sent from Iran. The fourth soldier was killed by small arms fire on the same day. A British soldier also was killed Tuesday in a roadside bombing.

The American military announced it found a mass grave in Diyala province northeast of the capital. The grave contained 17 bodies of mostly Sunni Muslims — including women, children and elderly people — killed by al-Qaida in Iraq, the military said in a statement. U.S. forces did not say how they knew the attackers were al-Qaida in Iraq.

Altogether at least 142 Iraqis were killed or found dead, including 70 in three separate bombings Wednesday in Baghdad. The violence came after July ended as the second-deadliest month for Iraqis so far this year, but with the lowest U.S. death toll in eight months.
CONT.

[Chupacabra]

The only people that root against our Troops are the ones that support this war.

BS

[REB]

The biggest problem this country has is from people who condone the continued behavior and policy from Bush and his cronies by their silence.

The Sunni's quit the government again rendering any progress on the political front moot again. I've been saying it for 3 years, they are theocracy not interested in a democracy. The hate each to the point that killing each other is a daily occurrence. Our continued presence does nothing but fuel worldwide hatred for Americans and gives the radical factions of religion the best possible ammo for recruitment of potential terrorists.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sunni bloc quits Iraqi Cabinet (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070801/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_070801182014;_ylt=AkLC4UGEegd2HHuC_YCCcNcE1vA I)
By LAUREN FRAYER, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD - Baghdad shook with bombings and political upheaval Wednesday as the largest Sunni Arab bloc quit the government and a suicide attacker blew up his fuel tanker in one of several attacks that claimed 142 lives nationwide.

The Iraqi Accordance Front's withdrawal from the Cabinet leaves only two Sunnis in the 40-member body, undermining Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's efforts to pull together rival factions and pass reconciliation laws the U.S. considers benchmarks that could lead to sectarian reconciliation.

The U.S. military announced the deaths of four more American soldiers, including three killed in Baghdad on Tuesday by a powerful armor-piercing bomb. Washington says these types of bombs are sent from Iran. The fourth soldier was killed by small arms fire on the same day. A British soldier also was killed Tuesday in a roadside bombing.

The American military announced it found a mass grave in Diyala province northeast of the capital. The grave contained 17 bodies of mostly Sunni Muslims — including women, children and elderly people — killed by al-Qaida in Iraq, the military said in a statement. U.S. forces did not say how they knew the attackers were al-Qaida in Iraq.

Altogether at least 142 Iraqis were killed or found dead, including 70 in three separate bombings Wednesday in Baghdad. The violence came after July ended as the second-deadliest month for Iraqis so far this year, but with the lowest U.S. death toll in eight months.
CONT.



I hear ya but still... why bother? It's not even about condoning anything. What can anybody do? Nothing. You know it and I know it. We just have to wait for the vote.

[Chupacabra]

any "positive" reports are probably dubious at best.

Tell that to my good friend, Sgt. Charles Hugghins, who risks his life every day and has lost friends in combat, in order to accomplish the missions that the mainstream liberal media neglects to report and [even more despicable] that bush bashers ignore just to push their politics.

Good things happen in Iraq. You can continue to ignore them so that you can maximize your arsenal to bash the president... Or you can acknowledge them and do the troops a service.

[REB]

History will tell the story of whether it was wrong or right.

There is a bigger picture here.

I'm voting for Ron Paul but I bet ya he doesn't win. We are not going to stick to our Constitution. Unless you VOTE FOR RON PAUL. It's sad but true.

We will increase our prescence in the M.E. no matter Dem or REP so vote Lib VOTE RON PAUL!

[Garcia Bronco]

Well just like Vietnam we're allowing this "war" to become a political battle which is just ridiculous. Our representatives need to get their heads out of their a$$es and decide whether to go all out with it or not. In war you either go all out or not at all. I will never understand what makes us think we can be half a$$ about it and expect to win. The other side doesn't give a rats ass about politically correct crap and the like. Like Ron Paul said...The congress did not declare war they just gave the president the authority to use force if he saw fit. Can we please get back to the Constitution?

Amen.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Tell that to my good friend, Sgt. Charles Hugghins, who risks his life every day and has lost friends in combat, in order to accomplish the missions that the mainstream liberal media neglects to report and [even more despicable] that bush bashers ignore just to push their politics.

Good things happen in Iraq. You can continue to ignore them so that you can maximize your arsenal to bash the president... Or you can acknowledge them and do the troops a service.Yeah, yeah, so you know someone over there, I do too, (family), so what? What missions are being "accomplished" over there? Do you have the list?

Do you know what a theocracy is? That's what we have "accomplished" over there, in the process, killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, maiming 10s of thousands of Americans and killing over 3,500 Americans, so far.

Our own CIA admits we are creating more terrorists than we are killing by our presence alone there.

Cheerleading this failed Neocon experiment (attempt) in nation building is incredibly stupid.

[gunns]

I understand some of your guys points but what's the purpose? Aren't you tired? Aren't you tired of hating Bush? There is nothing you can do that is going to change anything till the vote. Maybe it's just me but it seems so useless and pointless to hash the same crap over and over again. Guess what? We get to vote again. Make it work!

Yeah I'm extremely tired of this. How many troops will die between now and January 2009? And for what? That's why I voted Democrat. I'm very disappointed in them. Mine is a matter of hating this war AND the man that created it.

[gunns]

Tell that to my good friend, Sgt. Charles Hugghins, who risks his life every day and has lost friends in combat, in order to accomplish the missions that the mainstream liberal media neglects to report and [even more despicable] that bush bashers ignore just to push their politics.

Good things happen in Iraq. You can continue to ignore them so that you can maximize your arsenal to bash the president... Or you can acknowledge them and do the troops a service.

No one denies that good things happen. I've seen plenty of stories on TV and from my son. The bad thing is that those good deeds have nothing to do with the "war" except the fact that Bush put them over there. Those good deeds could have been done without a war. A lot of those good guys are dying from the bad things happening. And for what again? I support our troops fully....bring them home.

[Traveler]

History will tell the story of whether it was wrong or right.

That probably means we'll leave Iraq in worse shape than before we invaded. Same as other places America has tried to democratize.

[mhgaffney]

History will tell the story of whether it was wrong or right.

There is a bigger picture here.

I'm voting for Ron Paul but I bet ya he doesn't win. We are not going to stick to our Constitution. Unless you VOTE FOR RON PAUL. It's sad but true.

We will increase our prescence in the M.E. no matter Dem or REP so vote Lib VOTE RON PAUL!

Bigger picture? Yes, but it certainly eludes your grasp.

Given your statements your support for Ron Paul is astonishing.

Paul was one of the strongest voices against the war -- from the beginning.

Still, your support for Paul shows his wide appeal -- and it's why I still think that this medical doctor from Texas is a wild card.

If he can get on the ballot as an indepedent in all 50 states he could pull equally from the Dems and Repubs and -- if they don't murder him -- he actually has a shot.

There is another problem, however. The neo cons have other plans for America. I honestly do not believe there will be a 2008 election. As Dan Ellsberg has stated -- one more "terrorist" attack and the neo cons will suspend the Constitution.

Thereafter we will live under martial law -- a police state. Sayonara to liberty -- the land of the free and the home of the brave.

[Garcia Bronco]

There is another problem, however. The neo cons have other plans for America. I honestly do not believe there will be a 2008 election. As Dan Ellsberg has stated -- one more "terrorist" attack and the neo cons will suspend the Constitution.

Thereafter we will live under martial law -- a police state. Sayonara to liberty -- the land of the free and the home of the brave.

For the love of Jude...No they haven't...and no they aren't...and no they can't.

[Garcia Bronco]

That probably means we'll leave Iraq in worse shape than before we invaded. Same as other places America has tried to democratize.

You don't think we did the same thing in Kosovo?

[Chupacabra]

There is another problem, however. The neo cons have other plans for America. I honestly do not believe there will be a 2008 election. As Dan Ellsberg has stated -- one more "terrorist" attack and the neo cons will suspend the Constitution.

Thereafter we will live under martial law -- a police state. Sayonara to liberty -- the land of the free and the home of the brave.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Bronco Bob]

Translation: It doesn't matter because Bush has already made up his mind.

I corrected it for you.

[The Lone Bolt]

There is another problem, however. The neo cons have other plans for America. I honestly do not believe there will be a 2008 election. As Dan Ellsberg has stated -- one more "terrorist" attack and the neo cons will suspend the Constitution.

Thereafter we will live under martial law -- a police state. Sayonara to liberty -- the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I'll bet you $10,000 right now that there is an election in 2008.

[BroncoBuff]

I have NO DOUBT that the report will accurately reflect that the troop surge has quieted some streets in previously chaotic neighborhoods ... but that doesn't mean they are anywhere close to governing themselves. The Sunnis just walked out on the coalition government yesterday.

And to be honest - we all know it doesn't matter what the report actually SAYS, both sides will parse its words favorably to their goals. The only question is - will Lugar/Hagel/Voinovich and the other teetering Senate Republicans give Reid 60 to beat the filibuster? I sure hope so. Enough have died. The Iraqis need to settle their own country. It will evenbtually trifircate - whether by gun, by law, or organically, Iraq WILL trifurcate.


.

[BroncoBuff]

Yeah I'm extremely tired of this. How many troops will die between now and January 2009? And for what? That's why I voted Democrat. I'm very disappointed in them. Mine is a matter of hating this war AND the man that created it.
Wow ... I thought you were a Democrat anyway. ???

Well, any way you get there, SANITY is the only place to be. And staying in Iraq is not very sane.

[Traveler]

You don't think we did the same thing in Kosovo?

Quite the contrary. We did leave Kosovo in a mess. Some good was done there but we did do much to improve their quality of living. Same will haapen in Iraq.

[Bronco Bob]

You don't think we did the same thing in Kosovo?

But NATO didn't bomb Serbia to bring democracy to Kosovo.
Serbia was bombed because the Serbs were committing genocide.
Funny how so many people want us to step in to Darfur to stop
the genocide, and this is also an excuse being given to now not
pull out of Iraq. But the Right seemed perfectly happy to let
the genocide go on in Kosovo. Why, because it was Clinton
who decided to do something about the genocide?
This wasn't just a Clinton decision. All the NATO countries
decided something needed to be done, and the Europeans
were especially concerned about a rogue state on their
continent. The main reason the US even got involved was
the US had the better equipment to deal with the situation
than most the European countries in NATO.

[ant1999e]

I'm a ****ing idiot and don't have a clue what Im talking about.

I returned the favor.:thumbs:

[Bronco Bob]

I'm a ****ing idiot and don't have a clue what Im talking about.

Likewise.

[ant1999e]

Likewise.

So creative.

[mosca]

Enough have died. The Iraqis need to settle their own country. It will evenbtually trifircate - whether by gun, by law, or organically, Iraq WILL trifurcate.
Funny, because many people, including me, recommended forcing this trifurcation by means of partitioning Iraq, and were laughed at - on this forum and elsewhere within the realm of public debate. Now we're hearing that this trifurcation is inevitable. Who'da thunk?