Bush Trying To Sell Saudi Arabia 20 Billion in Arms

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Including Navy warships. But get this, to appease the Israelis for doing so, he's promised them 30 Billion in Arms!

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U.S. plans big arms sale to Saudi Arabia: report (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070728/pl_nm/mideast_usa_saudi_dc_1;_ylt=Ak3oqUNfHg6DEy2Ix6q5fs YE1vAI)

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Bush administration is preparing to ask Congress to approve arms sales totaling $20 billions over the next decade for Saudi Arabia and its neighbors, The New York Times reported in Saturday editions.


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20070728/2007_07_28t122548_450x314_us_mideast_usa_saudi.jpg ?x=380&y=265&sig=pfrqZI026gjelJ6WvOl6oA--
A file photo of Saudi police graduates attending a graduation ceremony in Riyadh June 26, 2007. The Bush administration is preparing to ask Congress to approve arms sales totaling $20 billions over the next decade for Saudi Arabia and its neighbors, The New York Times reported in Saturday editions. (Ali Jarekji/Reuters)


Coming as some U.S. officials contend that the Saudi government is not helping the situation in Iraq, the proposal for advanced weapons for Saudi Arabia has stoked concern in Israel and among its U.S. backers, the Times said. The package of advanced weaponry includes advanced satellite-guided bombs, upgrades for its fighters and new naval vessels.

Senior officials, including State Department and Pentagon officials who outlined the deals' terms, told the Times they thought the Bush administration had resolved those concerns, partly by offering Israel more than $30 billion in military aid over the next 10 years, which would be a significant increase over recent levels.

Administration officials remain concerned, however, that the package could draw opposition from Saudi critics in Congress, which is to be notified formally about the deal this autumn, the newspaper said.

The State Department and the White House had no comment on the Times' article, and a Pentagon spokesperson could not immediately be reached for comment.

Assurances from the Saudis about being more supportive in Iraq were not sought by the administration as part of the deal, U.S. officials told the newspaper.

The Times said officials described the plan as intended to bolster Gulf countries' militaries in a bid to contain Iran's growing strength in the region, as well as to demonstrate Washington's commitment to its Arab allies.

But they added that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates still plan to use their joint visit to Saudi Arabia next week to press for help with Iraq's government.

"The role of the Sunni Arab neighbors is to send a positive, affirmative message to moderates in Iraq in government that the neighbors are with you," the newspaper quoted a senior State Department official as saying.

The official added that Washington wants Gulf states to stress to Sunnis that engaging in violence is "killing your future."

Other salves to Israel in light of the proposed deal include asking the Saudis to accept restrictions on the range, size and location of the satellite-guided bombs, the Times said. The Pentagon is also asking for a commitment not to store the weapons at air bases close to Israeli territory, it added.

Along with Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates are likely to receive equipment and weaponry from the arms sales under consideration, the Times said.

[jhat01]

What a ****ing mess

[TailgateNut]

What a ****ing mess


I second your comment!

[Denver Crush]

the hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

[ant1999e]

So Russia can sell weapons to Iran but we can't sell them to Saudi?

[ant1999e]

However, I don't agree with us doing this but must ask the question for argument sake.

[yavoon]

ok so whats the exact objection of selling saudi arabia weapons?

[BroncoBuff]

This is nothing new ... despite the fact they are a breeding society for terrorists (a point I feel is overblown), the Saudis have been one of our better arms buyer for a long time. The perfect combination: they are filthy with cash, we have the best arms money can buy, they are filthy with oil, we want preferential oil treatment for our oil companies. So we sell them all the hardware they want to feel safe. Probably at retail.

I suppose the Israeli purchases in respinse to this raise the spectre of the United States supplying both sides of an escalating regional arms race, and that's worriesome, but I'm much mnore concerned about Ahjmadinejad's new censorship measures against the media and his long-term nuclear ambitions. I just wish today was January 20, 2009, and Ms. Clinton was taking the oath. These guys in there now haven't done anything right, and I have zero confidence they'e gonna start now.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

ok so whats the exact objection of selling saudi arabia weapons?The whole point is arming ME countries is about stupid as it gets. Today's good buddy in the ME is tomorrow's enemy. We have proven this fact over and over.

Oil and oil only drives and fuels the U.S. war machine.

[Denver Crush]

The whole point is arming ME countries is about stupid as it gets. Today's good buddy in the ME is tomorrow's enemy. We have proven this fact over and over.

Oil and oil only drives and fuels the U.S. war machine.

Exactly!

Its been this same foreign policy that has put us in the situation we are in today. We should learn from our mistakes in the past. Or maybe not.

[yavoon]

The whole point is arming ME countries is about stupid as it gets. Today's good buddy in the ME is tomorrow's enemy. We have proven this fact over and over.

Oil and oil only drives and fuels the U.S. war machine.

are u under the misconception that america is the only arms dealer in the world and that we effectively control who has tanks/planes and who doesn't?

or are u under the misconception that america needs no allies in the entirity of teh world that aren't canada or norway level democracies?

[Cito Pelon]

To me, the object in that region is to disarm it. And further, marginalize the entire region by reducing oil-dependency. I advise against this deal, and would support a regional policy that states the US will interdict arms shipments into the region. I realize that's very drastic and would lead to some very strong responses in the short-term.

But in the absence of voluntary restraint by the big arms-dealing nations, that is something that has to be strongly considered. The best solution is the Five Permanent Members of the UN Security Council stop playing grab-ass with each other, stop trying to carve out their own exclusive spheres of influence and start working together to stabilize the planet instead of this laissez-faire method.

[yavoon]

To me, the object in that region is to disarm it. And further, marginalize the entire region by reducing oil-dependency. I advise against this deal, and would support a regional policy that states the US will interdict arms shipments into the region. I realize that's very drastic and would lead to some very strong responses in the short-term.

But in the absence of voluntary restraint by the big arms-dealing nations, that is something that has to be strongly considered. The best solution is the Five Permanent Members of the UN Security Council stop playing grab-ass with each other, stop trying to carve out their own exclusive spheres of influence and start working together to stabilize the planet instead of this laissez-faire method.


now thats a neocon stance, forced military disarmarment.

[baja]

ok so whats the exact objection of selling saudi arabia weapons?

This.

senior officials, including State Department and Pentagon officials who outlined the deals' terms, told the Times they thought the Bush administration had resolved those concerns, partly by offering Israel more than $30 billion in military aid over the next 10 years, which would be a significant increase over recent levels.

That tells me this administration and beyond is owned by Israel

[baja]

This is nothing new ... despite the fact they are a breeding society for terrorists (a point I feel is overblown), the Saudis have been one of our better arms buyer for a long time. The perfect combination: they are filthy with cash, we have the best arms money can buy, they are filthy with oil, we want preferential oil treatment for our oil companies. So we sell them all the hardware they want to feel safe. Probably at retail.

<b>I suppose the Israeli purchases </b> in respinse to this raise the spectre of the United States supplying both sides of an escalating regional arms race, and that's worriesome, but I'm much mnore concerned about Ahjmadinejad's new censorship measures against the media and his long-term nuclear ambitions. I just wish today was January 20, 2009, and Ms. Clinton was taking the oath. These guys in there now haven't done anything right, and I have zero confidence they'e gonna start now.

The arms for Israel are not for sale they are in the form of aid. 30 billion over ten years.

[yavoon]

This.

senior officials, including State Department and Pentagon officials who outlined the deals' terms, told the Times they thought the Bush administration had resolved those concerns, partly by offering Israel more than $30 billion in military aid over the next 10 years, which would be a significant increase over recent levels.

That tells me this administration and beyond is owned by Israel

those sneaky jews!

[Cito Pelon]

now thats a neocon stance, forced military disarmarment.

So what are the options beyond that? Very few. I laid out the best option. Beyond that the option is basically fight it out, and that will probably be what settles it. Trouble is instead of fighting it out between the arms selling nations, we have proxies that we arm. Sooner or later one of us will have to back our proxies. Seen it before, it will happen again. But the stakes are higher now.

[yavoon]

So what are the options beyond that? Very few. I laid out the best option. Beyond that the option is basically fight it out, and that will probably be what settles it. Trouble is instead of fighting it out between the arms selling nations, we have proxies that we arm. Sooner or later one of us will have to back our proxies. Seen it before, it will happen again. But the stakes are higher now.

not everyone we sell a rifle to is a "proxy."

[baja]

those sneaky jews!

Giving 30 billion in order to get permission to sell 20 billion, that sounds wise.

[Taco John]

not everyone we sell a rifle to is a "proxy."

Try knowingly selling a gun to a mentally disturbed 17 year old, and use that defense in court when he shoots up his school.

[BroncoBuff]

The arms for Israel are not for sale they are in the form of aid.

Okay baja ... maybe they're "free," but that wasn't my point.

My point was and is - ultimately - that Saudi Arabia and Israel have more in common than it seems. Both are close American allies, and have little use for and are rightfully fearful of radical Islam. The Saudi Prince who lived here - Bandar bin-Sultan - was quoted last year empathising with the Israeli side of the story.

So even though this sale to the Saudis and (gift) to the Israelis may seem like we're arming both sides in a regional powder-keg, don't be so qiock to believe it. The Saudis might be Arabs, but that doesn't necessarily mean they want "Death to Israel."

[baja]

Okay baja ... maybe they're "free," but that wasn't my point.

My point was and is - ultimately - that Saudi Arabia and Israel have more in common than it seems. Both are close American allies, and have little use for and are rightfully fearful of radical Islam. The Saudi Prince who lived here - Bandar bin-Sultan - was quoted last year empathising with the Israeli side of the story.

So even though this sale to the Saudis and (gift) to the Israelis<b> may seem like we're arming both sides in a regional powder-keg, don't be so qiock to believe it. </b> The Saudis might be Arabs, but that doesn't necessarily mean they want "Death to Israel."


That was never my point.

We are going to arm the middle east before someone else does, I understand that and there is no changing that.

I object to giving 30 billion in weapons to Israel, let them pay for them like every one else.

[Spider]

ok so whats the exact objection of selling saudi arabia weapons?

pretty stupid .........

[Spider]

So Russia can sell weapons to Iran but we can't sell them to Saudi?

Whabbism ..Saudi Arabia is the home of this very violent form of Islam ....15 of the 19 Hijackers were from Saudi Arabia .........as Beerslug said , one day they are our friends , next they want to kill us ......Selling BB guns to these asshats is a stupid idea

[ant1999e]

This.

senior officials, including State Department and Pentagon officials who outlined the deals' terms, told the Times they thought the Bush administration had resolved those concerns, partly by offering Israel more than $30 billion in military aid over the next 10 years, which would be a significant increase over recent levels.

That tells me this administration and beyond is owned by Israel

Don't mess with Israel.

[yavoon]

Try knowingly selling a gun to a mentally disturbed 17 year old, and use that defense in court when he shoots up his school.

countries aren't children.

[baja]

Don't mess with Israel.

OK in just this one source of aid the US gives Israel $30,000,000,000. ^The population of Israel is just over 7,000,000 that means that the US, in a since, is giving every man woman and child in Israel about $5,000 an that is in addition to the regular aid package.

What would that money have done for NO or any one of the another needs we have right here at home.

[baja]

On its 59th Independence Day, April 24, 2007, the State of Israel's population stands at approximately 7,150,000 inhabitants – compared to 806,000 residents who lived in Israel in 1948, according Central Bureau of Statistics data.

Of the total population, 5,415,000 are Jews (76 percent) while 1,425,000 million (20 percent) are Arabs. 310,000 (4 percent) people were classified as “others,” mostly non-Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union or those whose Jewish status is still undetermined by the Interior Ministry.

In the past year the Israeli population has grown by 121,000, a rate of 1.8 percent. Since 2003, the growth rate has remained relatively stable. The majority (88 percent) of the increase was due to natural births. There were 148,000 births recorded in Israel in 2006. During that same period, 18,400 new immigrants made aliyah to Israel, accounting for the rest of the growth (12 percent) in Israel's population.

The majority of Israelis (92%) live in urban communities. One-quarter of the Israeli population lives either in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa or Rishon Letzion. Jerusalem is the largest city, with 719,900 residents. Most of Israel's population is concentrated in the center of the country around Tel Aviv, which has a population of 378,900.

[Cito Pelon]

Well, I support Israel. I'll waffle on a lot of issues depending on the short term efficacy, sort of like how I deal in the stock market. But there's a few things I'm stalwart about. One of them is Israel, another is Japan, another is S. Korea. I like these people. I just like the backbone they have. I also like Persians quite a bit for the same reason, they have pride and backbone, much like us in the USA. Turks I also like for the same reason, pride and backbone.

[Bronco Bob]

ok so whats the exact objection of selling saudi arabia weapons?

The government is unstable and if the militant jihadists take over these
same weapons could be used against us. Look at the problems we have
had with Iran having weapons we sold them when the Shah was running
the country. People still worry about them getting parts for the F14s they
have, and those are rather long in the tooth.

[yavoon]

The government is unstable and if the militant jihadists take over these
same weapons could be used against us. Look at the problems we have
had with Iran having weapons we sold them when the Shah was running
the country. People still worry about them getting parts for the F14s they
have, and those are rather long in the tooth.

yah but saudi is gna buy weapons. why not be friendly and sell them weapons? u want the russians/chinese to be the suppliers to saudi arabia? atleast this way they have to buy parts from us, and new models come from us, etc. unless ur taking some kind of moral stand, which is modestly plausible, saudi arabia is an awful country, then I don't see whats the big deal.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

are u under the misconception that america is the only arms dealer in the world and that we effectively control who has tanks/planes and who doesn't?
Uh, we build the finest weapons on the world. All the more reason not to give them to anyone else.

The whole point is that continuing throwing billions of taxpayer money after oil in the ME is a never ending detriment to our country.

[mhgaffney]

This is nothing new ... despite the fact they are a breeding society for terrorists (a point I feel is overblown), the Saudis have been one of our better arms buyer for a long time. The perfect combination: they are filthy with cash, we have the best arms money can buy, they are filthy with oil, we want preferential oil treatment for our oil companies. So we sell them all the hardware they want to feel safe. Probably at retail.

I suppose the Israeli purchases in respinse to this raise the spectre of the United States supplying both sides of an escalating regional arms race, and that's worriesome, but I'm much mnore concerned about Ahjmadinejad's new censorship measures against the media and his long-term nuclear ambitions. I just wish today was January 20, 2009, and Ms. Clinton was taking the oath. These guys in there now haven't done anything right, and I have zero confidence they'e gonna start now.


Saudi Arabia is the most heavily armed nation on earth --per capita -- bar none. The Saudi government spends more on weapons -- mostly US vintage -- than any other. The Saudis literally have entire air fields with US made planes lined up -- more advanced weapons by far than they need -- or that they could ever use.

There is a reason for this. S Arabia has long had a special client status in Washington -- because of the oil wealth. Over the years the Saudis came under tremendous pressure from the US to hire our contractors (i.e., Halliburton) and to buy our weapons. In return for our protection.

In short, the US-Saudi relationship in this sense resembles a mobster protection racket. We shake down the Saudis for multi billion dollar economic projects and arms sales in return for military protection -- and to shore up the House of Saud.

As for Iran,

You should be more concerned about a US attack on Iran -- than about Iran's long term intentions.

Do not under estimate the Iranian people. They are westward looking. The average age of the population is in the 20s. It is a youthful society that wants progressive change and will not tolerate media censorship for long. If president Ahminedinejad is cracking down it can only mean he is growing desperate. His support has been dwindling. His candidates lost in a recent election.

You also seem unaware of the fact that A. does NOT hold control over the nuclear program. This is under the control of the Mullahs -- who oppose nuclear weapons on religious grounds.

This important fact has seldom been reported here in the US.

[yavoon]

Uh, we build the finest weapons on the world. All the more reason not to give them to anyone else.

The whole point is that continuing throwing billions of taxpayer money after oil in the ME is a never ending detriment to our country.

I thought this was about weapons sales?

[Rigs11]

where were the 911 hijackers from again??Anyone??

[yavoon]

where were the 911 hijackers from again??Anyone??

do u think selling them tanks has any causal relationship towards that? or is it just spite? which btw I have sympathies w/, saudi arabia is a cesspool of a country run by a vile theocracy.

[Spider]

where were the 911 hijackers from again??Anyone??

15 of the 19 were from Sauda Arabia .......... the home of Whabbism , some were Yavoon in his bugs bunny jammies got the Idea if'n we sell them there Arabs a butt load of weapons , they will quit whabbism and become nice guys .....

[Garcia Bronco]

Some of you folks take things way out of proportion. Like the Dubai port deal, folks got all bent out of shape. Even though Dubai controls several terminals at JFK in New York.

[Spider]

Some of you folks take things way out of proportion. Like the Dubai port deal, folks got all bent out of shape. Even though Dubai controls several terminals at JFK in New York.

and some of you people insist on being stupid , I dont know why , perhaps you guys like the challenge being stupid offers .........
there was once no harm in selling Bin Laden the freedom fighter weapons either .......
if there is a dog locked in a cage , you stick your hand in and the dog bites , then you stick your hand back in and wonder why you got bit ..............

[Rigs11]

hey remember when we sold hussein those chemical weapons, ummm ...WMD's, and then we invaded his country, because he had them?Hilarious! by the way didn't saudia arabia recently threaten to cut oil output if the US produced too much ethanol fuel?it's not freaking rocket science people.

[TailgateNut]

and some of you people insist on being stupid , I dont know why , perhaps you guys like the challenge being stupid offers .........
there was once no harm in selling Bin Laden the freedom fighter weapons either .......
if there is a dog locked in a cage , you stick your hand in and the dog bites , then you stick your hand back in and wonder why you got bit ..............

Maybe Bush is trying to extend his friendship with the Saudi's, knowing he may have to move there once he's removed from office. Exiled in the "house of Saud"!

[Bronco Bob]

and some of you people insist on being stupid , I dont know why , perhaps you guys like the challenge being stupid offers .........
there was once no harm in selling Bin Laden the freedom fighter weapons either .......
if there is a dog locked in a cage , you stick your hand in and the dog bites , then you stick your hand back in and wonder why you got bit ..............

Or the Shah of Iran our top of the line jet fighters, because the Shah was
our bestest buddy in the middle east, and would act as a counterbalance
to the Soviet client states in the region. Ironic, isn't it, that now the
US wants to sell the Saudi king a boatload of weapons to act as a
counterbalance to Iran, because the king is also our bestest buddy in
the Arab countries. Never mind that the king is also on shaky ground
and could also be overthrown by the radicals.

[Rigs11]

Not to mention that most of the people that have been labeled "alqaeda in iraq" are in fact radical saudis.talk about a clusterfvck.

[TheDave]

hey remember when we sold hussein those chemical weapons, ummm ...WMD's, and then we invaded his country, because he had them?Hilarious! by the way didn't saudia arabia recently threaten to cut oil output if the US produced too much ethanol fuel?it's not freaking rocket science people.


Seriously, why can't people see this... I realize that we have always been the arms supplier to the world, but aren't we always hearing about some people having a pre-911 mindset. Doesn't this qualify?

JMO, but maybe it's time to stop arming the crazy people...

By the way... Isn't the "alqueda in Iraq" predominantly from Saudi Arabia? I thought these were the the ones doing the majority of the killing (in regards to our troops). If so... Why are we giving guns to the bad guys?

Seriously, none of this makes any damn sense...

[TheDave]

Nevermind... looks like Rigs beat me to it.

[Rigs11]

Seriously, why can't people see this... I realize that we have always been the arms supplier to the world, but aren't we always hearing about some people having a pre-911 mindset. Doesn't this qualify?

JMO, but maybe it's time to stop arming the crazy people...

By the way... Isn't the "alqueda in Iraq" predominantly from Saudi Arabia? I thought these were the the ones doing the majority of the killing (in regards to our troops). If so... Why are we giving guns to the bad guys?

Seriously, none of this makes any damn sense...

Don't sell them the freaking weapons in the first place.how much more pre emptive can you get?8')

[defenseman]

OK in just this one source of aid the US gives Israel $30,000,000,000. ^The population of Israel is just over 7,000,000 that means that the US, in a since, is giving every man woman and child in Israel about $5,000 an that is in addition to the regular aid package.

What would that money have done for NO or any one of the another needs we have right here at home.

Appears to be off by a factor of about 10...dman

[Garcia Bronco]

hey remember when we sold hussein those chemical weapons, ummm ...WMD's, and then we invaded his country, because he had them?Hilarious! by the way didn't saudia arabia recently threaten to cut oil output if the US produced too much ethanol fuel?it's not freaking rocket science people.

You mean OPEC, and we sold Hussein weapons long ago to fight Iran. He then proceeded several years later to try and take Kuwait. There are reasons these chain of event happened and it's not so simple as you stated.

[alkemical]

yah but saudi is gna buy weapons. why not be friendly and sell them weapons? u want the russians/chinese to be the suppliers to saudi arabia? atleast this way they have to buy parts from us, and new models come from us, etc. unless ur taking some kind of moral stand, which is modestly plausible, saudi arabia is an awful country, then I don't see whats the big deal.


Oh i dunno - i guess it's ok for us to give weapons to terrorists.

[Spider]

You mean OPEC, and we sold Hussein weapons long ago to fight Iran. He then proceeded several years later to try and take Kuwait. There are reasons these chain of event happened and it's not so simple as you stated.

Bull**** .........http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php
http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1991/C231.html

[alkemical]

You mean OPEC, and we sold Hussein weapons long ago to fight Iran. He then proceeded several years later to try and take Kuwait. There are reasons these chain of event happened and it's not so simple as you stated.

Saddam made a preemptive strike on another dictator in his region that was a threat to him..... wait a minute...where did i hear that before????

[yavoon]

Oh i dunno - i guess it's ok for us to give weapons to terrorists.

u think the weapons of terrorists are tanks and fighters? or is this just one of those emotional sayings that u think is magically true cuz it sounds nasty.

[yavoon]

Don't sell them the freaking weapons in the first place.how much more pre emptive can you get?8')

what exactly will we have pre empted? nothing? yah thats what I thought.

[alkemical]

u think the weapons of terrorists are tanks and fighters? or is this just one of those emotional sayings that u think is magically true cuz it sounds nasty.


Yeah if some terrorists could get some tanks and planes - i'm suuuuure they wouldn't use them against our troops in the ME. I mean terrorists never have thought of using what they can get, right?

[Bronco Bob]

u think the weapons of terrorists are tanks and fighters? or is this just one of those emotional sayings that u think is magically true cuz it sounds nasty.

The terrorist use terrorist weapons (IEDs, suicide vests) because that's all they have. If they had tanks and fighter jets they'd damn well use them instead.

Take Darfur as an example of terrorists using aircraft to terrorize a population.

"Amnesty International issued a report which provided evidence, including eyewitness testimony, that the Sudan Air Force has been conducting a pattern of indiscriminate aerial bombings of villages in Darfur and eastern Chad using ground attack jet fighters and Antonov planes."

[yavoon]

Yeah if some terrorists could get some tanks and planes - i'm suuuuure they wouldn't use them against our troops in the ME. I mean terrorists never have thought of using what they can get, right?

I think now ur just playing off in retardo fantasy land. saudi arabia is gna have tanks, whether they buy them from us or not. so why not sell them tanks? or do u honestly think some abrahams is gna be stolen from saudi arabia, drive all the way to baghdad, refueling 18 times and then try to shoot someone up?

ppl need to learn to unretard their thought processes.

[yavoon]

The terrorist use terrorist weapons (IEDs, suicide vests) because that's all they have. If they had tanks and fighter jets they'd damn well use them instead.

Take Darfur as an example of terrorists using aircraft to terrorize a population.

"Amnesty International issued a report which provided evidence, including eyewitness testimony, that the Sudan Air Force has been conducting a pattern of indiscriminate aerial bombings of villages in Darfur and eastern Chad using ground attack jet fighters and Antonov planes."

well in sudan its the gov't promoted genocide of the inferior african population. terrorism against the wests main advantage is there's nothing to bomb. I'd be happy to bomb a legit terrorist airfield:).

[Denver Crush]

:pity:

[Bronco Bob]

I think now ur just playing off in retardo fantasy land. saudi arabia is gna have tanks, whether they buy them from us or not. so why not sell them tanks? or do u honestly think some abrahams is gna be stolen from saudi arabia, drive all the way to baghdad, refueling 18 times and then try to shoot someone up?

ppl need to learn to unretard their thought processes.

And if the terrorist take over Saudi Arabia what's to stop them from
flying some F-15s over to the Green Zone in Baghdad or to Tel Aviv
and dropping a few cluster bombs? You need to unretard your thought
processes.

[yavoon]

And if the terrorist take over Saudi Arabia what's to stop them from
flying some F-15s over to the Green Zone in Baghdad or to Tel Aviv
and dropping a few cluster bombs? You need to unretard your thought
processes.

and instead of f-15's if they're SU-29's are ppl any less dead?

[baja]

Saddam made a preemptive strike on another dictator in his region that was a threat to him..... wait a minute...where did i hear that before????


ya Josh but Saddam's enemy did not have weapons of mass destruction that could be launched within 45 minutes.... Er never mind.

[baja]

Yeah if some terrorists could get some tanks and planes - i'm suuuuure they wouldn't use them against our troops in the ME. I mean terrorists never have thought of using what they can get, right?

Don't you know that terrorist's weapon of choice is the shoe bomb, if you don't believe me just go to any airport and see all the people in line bare foot.

[Rigs11]

what exactly will we have pre empted? nothing? yah thats what I thought.

Are you really that dense? pay attention, we armed iraq and had to pre emptively attack that country right?because of those wmd's WE sold them.Now how about we not arm them at all, would we need those pre-emptive attacks? we did the same with the taliban when they were fighting the soviets.

[alkemical]

I think now ur just playing off in retardo fantasy land. saudi arabia is gna have tanks, whether they buy them from us or not. so why not sell them tanks? or do u honestly think some abrahams is gna be stolen from saudi arabia, drive all the way to baghdad, refueling 18 times and then try to shoot someone up?

ppl need to learn to unretard their thought processes.



Why then aren't we selling arms to iran retard?

[yavoon]

Are you really that dense? pay attention, we armed iraq and had to pre emptively attack that country right?because of those wmd's WE sold them.Now how about we not arm them at all, would we need those pre-emptive attacks? we did the same with the taliban when they were fighting the soviets.

we're not talking about WMD's, or whatever the hell else. we're talking about as far as I know conventional military arms. u ppl are really being myopic here. like saudi arabia isn't gna have an army if we don't sell weapons to them? its retarded, if they don't have f-16's, they'll have migs and sukhois.

[yavoon]

Why then aren't we selling arms to iran retard?

cuz we don't like iran, hell we don't even have an embassy in iran.

[alkemical]

cuz we don't like iran, hell we don't even have an embassy in iran.

Well they are going to buy arms from someone, so why not sell them what we got? Weren't you also the one giving us how bad Saudia Arabia is bad with their religious fervor? Seems to me you are backtracking on this one.

[yavoon]

Well they are going to buy arms from someone, so why not sell them what we got? Weren't you also the one giving us how bad Saudia Arabia is bad with their religious fervor? Seems to me you are backtracking on this one.

yes saudi arabia is a ****ing cesspool, I think I even said it in this thread. and it only looks like backtracking to u because ur mind is feeble and unsophisticated. u think the soviets were nice in wwII? or the taliban in afghanistan? or pakistan NOW? no, we have some ****ty ass allies. the saudi's are one of those ****ty ass allies, their entire country is a racist, bigot regime based off a violent, cruel, supremacist and tyrannical religion.

but thats how it is. and not selling them weapons will have the grand total effect of losing us another pseudo-allie, and then what? then they buy russian weapons and play friendly w/ the russians? WOW now THAT accomplished a lot, I'm surprised ur not some kind of head diplomat.

[Bronco Bob]

yes saudi arabia is a ****ing cesspool, I think I even said it in this thread. and it only looks like backtracking to u because ur mind is feeble and unsophisticated. u think the soviets were nice in wwII? or the taliban in afghanistan? or pakistan NOW? no, we have some ****ty ass allies. the saudi's are one of those ****ty ass allies, their entire country is a racist, bigot regime based off a violent, cruel, supremacist and tyrannical religion.

but thats how it is. and not selling them weapons will have the grand total effect of losing us another pseudo-allie, and then what? then they buy russian weapons and play friendly w/ the russians? WOW now THAT accomplished a lot, I'm surprised ur not some kind of head diplomat.

So basically your position is that if I own a gun shop, I should sell the gun
to some lunatic because if I don't, the shop across the street is going to
sell the gun to him anyway, so I might as well get the money. Plus if
he's ever in the market for another gun, he'll be sure and shop with me first.

[yavoon]

So basically your position is that if I own a gun shop, I should sell the gun
to some lunatic because if I don't, the shop across the street is going to
sell the gun to him anyway, so I might as well get the money. Plus if
he's ever in the market for another gun, he'll be sure and shop with me first.

yes lets set all foreign policy decisions on who comes up w/ the best lunatic analogy. good call.

[baja]

yes lets set all foreign policy decisions on who comes up w/ the best lunatic analogy. good call.

By golly I think you have stumbled on to the much searched for Bush Foreign Policy mission statement.

[TailgateNut]

yes lets set all foreign policy decisions on who comes up w/ the best lunatic analogy. good call.



Speaking of lunatics. Your tought processes are flawed to the hilt.
It's as if we (USA) never ****ing learns from the past!

[yavoon]

Speaking of lunatics. Your tought processes are flawed to the hilt.
It's as if we (USA) never ****ing learns from the past!

"learning" from myopic morons who merely want to avoid "ironical" outcomes isn't what I would call a good strategy. look I hate saudi arabia, and any idea that could lead to a feasible and usable foreign policy I would back, but the little chirping idiots who cry about how "ironical" it will be if saudi is overtaken by terrorists or some other such thing are intensely uninteresting. u've all been fed on gotcha media propaganda and u think its the height of sophistication to predict future gotcha's.

[Garcia Bronco]

yes saudi arabia is a ****ing cesspool, I think I even said it in this thread. and it only looks like backtracking to u because ur mind is feeble and unsophisticated. u think the soviets were nice in wwII? or the taliban in afghanistan? or pakistan NOW? no, we have some ****ty ass allies. the saudi's are one of those ****ty ass allies, their entire country is a racist, bigot regime based off a violent, cruel, supremacist and tyrannical religion.

but thats how it is. and not selling them weapons will have the grand total effect of losing us another pseudo-allie, and then what? then they buy russian weapons and play friendly w/ the russians? WOW now THAT accomplished a lot, I'm surprised ur not some kind of head diplomat.

Exactly, dipolmancy is not an exact science and sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.

[TailgateNut]

"learning" from myopic morons who merely want to avoid "ironical" outcomes isn't what I would call a good strategy. look I hate saudi arabia, and any idea that could lead to a feasible and usable foreign policy I would back, but the little chirping idiots who cry about how "ironical" it will be if saudi is overtaken by terrorists or some other such thing are intensely uninteresting. u've all been fed on gotcha media propaganda and u think its the height of sophistication to predict future gotcha's.

Is u're keyboard missing the "y". Use it!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but to sell arms to another muslim state seems totally idiotic. Not that I give a **** about Israel, but we seem to be their servant, and we know all of the muslims would like them to disapppear of the face of the planet. So, we sell arms to someone who may in the future, use them against us.

Great move!

:spit:

[alkemical]

yes saudi arabia is a ****ing cesspool, I think I even said it in this thread. and it only looks like backtracking to u because ur mind is feeble and unsophisticated. u think the soviets were nice in wwII? or the taliban in afghanistan? or pakistan NOW? no, we have some ****ty ass allies. the saudi's are one of those ****ty ass allies, their entire country is a racist, bigot regime based off a violent, cruel, supremacist and tyrannical religion.

but thats how it is. and not selling them weapons will have the grand total effect of losing us another pseudo-allie, and then what? then they buy russian weapons and play friendly w/ the russians? WOW now THAT accomplished a lot, I'm surprised ur not some kind of head diplomat.



Wow, deflections galore! Of course that happens when Yvonne gets stuck talking out its ass.

[yavoon]

Is u're keyboard missing the "y". Use it!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but to sell arms to another muslim state seems totally idiotic. Not that I give a **** about Israel, but we seem to be their servant, and we know all of the muslims would like them to disapppear of the face of the planet. So, we sell arms to someone who may in the future, use them against us.

Great move!

:spit:

haha I see which trough ur eating from the ever so vapid and moronic, "we're servants of israel" trough.

[alkemical]

Exactly, dipolmancy is not an exact science and sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.

You mean like creating a perpetual war machine? I mean we do a good job of installing dictators only to remove them in a war every 10-15 years or so. "Killing is business and business is good" - You said it Dave.......

[TailgateNut]

haha I see which trough ur eating from the ever so vapid and moronic, "we're servants of israel" trough.

I'm putting "U" in the "ignoramus" pile of posters. Have fun with them.

See "U"!

[yavoon]

I'm putting "U" in the "ignoramus" pile of posters. Have fun with them.

See "U"!

that must be how u maintain the america is the "servant of israel" idea while still keeping a straight face.

[Rigs11]

that must be how u maintain the america is the "servant of israel" idea while still keeping a straight face.

yep, 30 billion in aid, always supporting them in their squabbles,doesn't sound like a servant at all.cue wigs to the rescue to tell everyone how i hate jews.

[alkemical]

that must be how u maintain the america is the "servant of israel" idea while still keeping a straight face.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/israelok.jpg

[yavoon]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/israelok.jpg

not surprising ur idiocy would like that. yes america serves at the pleasure of israel, damn those jews.

[yavoon]

yep, 30 billion in aid, always supporting them in their squabbles,doesn't sound like a servant at all.cue wigs to the rescue to tell everyone how i hate jews.

u call the giant pot of racist genocidal hatred that israel is embroiled in "squabbles?" what a beautifully deescalating word.

[yavoon]

just to play w/ the jew hating conspiracy theorists head a little:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/26/AR2005062600544.html

"Israel Set to End China Arms Deal Under U.S. Pressure"
"The agreement aims to resolve a dispute that arose last year over Israel's plans to provide spare parts for a fleet of Harpy armed drone aircraft it sold to China in the 1990s with U.S. approval. U.S. defense officials objected on the grounds that the spare parts constituted a significant upgrade of the anti-radar aircraft, possibly including the addition of sensors that could even detect radar sites that are turned off."

who.wag.dog.what.tail.when.go.

[RkyMtnThunder]

Like this wont come back to bite us on the ass someday....


Uhh

[Rigs11]

Like this wont come back to bite us on the ass someday....


Uhh

It will and then yavoon and co will come in here screaming how them damn 'terrorists' hate us cuz they hate freedomHilarious!

[Rigs11]

u call the giant pot of racist genocidal hatred that israel is embroiled in "squabbles?" what a beautifully deescalating word.

hmmm..maybe you should ask yourself why all the hatred towards israel by basically every country in the middle east. and also ask yourself what role we have in that hatred. Is it the bias that only israel can have nukes?is it the israelis treatment of the palestininans?And also ask yourself that with the fordimable military that israel has, do they really need our constant backing?do you honestly think that iran poses any threat to israel to which it cannot handle?And how does that hate spill over to the US.

[RkyMtnThunder]

It will and then yavoon and co will come in here screaming how them damn 'terrorists' hate us cuz they hate freedomHilarious!

Makes me sick people actually believe that. Its such a moronic excuse to explain such a complex issue (why we are hated).

Its insulting to our collective intelligence that the excuse is merely 'they hate our freedom'.



Anyhow - the idea of sending ANY middle eastern country this kind of firepower is disgusting.


I dont care if they are our supposed 'allies'. Seems every one of our 'allies' in the Middle East has turned on us and I dont see why Saudi is going to be different.

Royal family aside - how many 911 hijackers were Saudis? Anyone stupid enough to believe the average Saudi views us as an ally?!?

makes me want to puke...

[Garcia Bronco]

You mean like creating a perpetual war machine? I mean we do a good job of installing dictators only to remove them in a war every 10-15 years or so. "Killing is business and business is good" - You said it Dave.......

Well...us not selling them arms they want means they go get another seller. So why not. It's really simple. We didn't create the market. The market came to us. While not preferable, we are doing what is in our best interest.

[Spider]

I would hit the woman in the picture .......... ;D
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/israelok.jpg

[yavoon]

hmmm..maybe you should ask yourself why all the hatred towards israel by basically every country in the middle east. and also ask yourself what role we have in that hatred. Is it the bias that only israel can have nukes?is it the israelis treatment of the palestininans?And also ask yourself that with the fordimable military that israel has, do they really need our constant backing?do you honestly think that iran poses any threat to israel to which it cannot handle?And how does that hate spill over to the US.

because they are jews and they shoot back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_LfghKTrk

[yavoon]

It will and then yavoon and co will come in here screaming how them damn 'terrorists' hate us cuz they hate freedomHilarious!

how will it "bite us in the ass." because if something bad happens w/ saudi weaponry it will be f-15's instead of migs? is any1 gna be less dead? u muppets are dragged around by ur balls by the whimsically propagandist notions u have.

[RkyMtnThunder]

how will it "bite us in the ass." because if something bad happens w/ saudi weaponry it will be f-15's instead of migs? is any1 gna be less dead? u muppets are dragged around by ur balls by the whimsically propagandist notions u have.

as if you arent.....

[Bob]

are u under the misconception that america is the only arms dealer in the world and that we effectively control who has tanks/planes and who doesn't?

or are u under the misconception that america needs no allies in the entirity of teh world that aren't canada or norway level democracies?

Yavoon, so Saudi Arabia is not a real long-term threat? Be consistent... the people of that nation hate the US more than any other.

I guess the one reason to prop-up their somewhat secular government is that if that government was toppled it would likely be replaced with one that was even more openly hostile to the USA. However, I don’t think the US should be selling them any offensive weapons which will likely be used against us or Israel at some point. Short-term gains for long term pain is myopic.

[yavoon]

Yavoon, so Saudi Arabia is not a real long-term threat? Be consistent... the people of that nation hate the US more than any other.

I guess the one reason to prop-up their somewhat secular government is that if that government was toppled it would likely be replaced with one that was even more openly hostile to the USA. However, I don’t think the US should be selling them any offensive weapons which will likely be used against us or Israel at some point. Short-term gains for long term pain is myopic.

there will be ZERO difference in long term pain. like I said prior, u think an f-16 makes ppl more dead then a mig does? and we aren't "propping" anything in saudi arabia up save us protecting them from foreign invasion.

[RkyMtnThunder]

Yavoon, so Saudi Arabia is not a real long-term threat? Be consistent... the people of that nation hate the US more than any other.

I guess the one reason to prop-up their somewhat secular government is that if that government was toppled it would likely be replaced with one that was even more openly hostile to the USA. However, I don’t think the US should be selling them any offensive weapons which will likely be used against us or Israel at some point. Short-term gains for long term pain is myopic.



Agreed


I know 'if' is a powerful word....

but what 'if' a monarchy was overthrown by its military branch? Its happened before...several times in history

so yeah, its a darned good idea that we sell em $20bil of the worlds most advanced war equipment - cause you know everyone in Saudi just LOVES the Royal Family and no one would ever dream of overthrowing them! Even if they had the tools to do so!

[Bob]

To me, the object in that region is to disarm it. And further, marginalize the entire region by reducing oil-dependency. I advise against this deal, and would support a regional policy that states the US will interdict arms shipments into the region. I realize that's very drastic and would lead to some very strong responses in the short-term.

But in the absence of voluntary restraint by the big arms-dealing nations, that is something that has to be strongly considered. The best solution is the Five Permanent Members of the UN Security Council stop playing grab-ass with each other, stop trying to carve out their own exclusive spheres of influence and start working together to stabilize the planet instead of this laissez-faire method.

Not sure about most of your solutions -- but you are right about oil dependence. I am not a Druid, like many here, but as we find a way to reduce our dependence on foreign energy sources we will become more independent, and not fund (as much anyway) nations like the Saudis. The green folks look at half the solution -- conservation can get us part of the way, but we also need to create more energy here. This is a security issue plain and simple.

Of the billions that the Saudis have taken from us in over the years, what have they invested that money in? Yes, they have bought American businesses, but they have spent relatively little in their own infrastructure -- many of those US dollars have gone toward settings up hundreds of Madras’s in Europe and the US and these Saudi chartered/sponsored schools spew their hatred of the West and Jihad.

[Bob]

hmmm..maybe you should ask yourself why all the hatred towards israel by basically every country in the middle east. and also ask yourself what role we have in that hatred. Is it the bias that only israel can have nukes?is it the israelis treatment of the palestininans?And also ask yourself that with the fordimable military that israel has, do they really need our constant backing?do you honestly think that iran poses any threat to israel to which it cannot handle?And how does that hate spill over to the US.

I concur that the Israelis have not always been perfect angles toward the Palestinians, but that cuts both ways – it is a tad hard to get along with a group of people that deny your right to exist.

Regarding the other part of your statement I think your grasp of history is limited. You should ask the Muslims living in that region and those in the US (that are extreme) and they will tell you. 26% of Muslims in America thing that bombing civilian targets is acceptable (Pew Research) The leaders of the nations that surround Israel do not feel that they have the right to even exist. The hatred that exists for the Jews goes all the way back to Abraham and the sons of Ishmael. The Islamists use the Palestinians as a pre-text to make war, but with almost every major conflict in the world, you will see that it is the Islamists that cant get along with their neighbors. 2 million Christians were slaughtered in the Sudan in the 1990's and was ignored by the media, there are Muslims that cant get along with Hindus in India, conflicts in France and burning hundreds of cars, conflicts with Danish cartoonists (where several people were murdered as a direct result and riots all over the world.)

[Bob]

Makes me sick people actually believe that. Its such a moronic excuse to explain such a complex issue (why we are hated).

Its insulting to our collective intelligence that the excuse is merely 'they hate our freedom'.



Anyhow - the idea of sending ANY middle eastern country this kind of firepower is disgusting.


I dont care if they are our supposed 'allies'. Seems every one of our 'allies' in the Middle East has turned on us and I dont see why Saudi is going to be different.

Royal family aside - how many 911 hijackers were Saudis? Anyone stupid enough to believe the average Saudi views us as an ally?!?

makes me want to puke...

Amen. Or, should I say Amen, considering the current number of your posts? :rofl:

[Bob]

Agreed


I know 'if' is a powerful word....

but what 'if' a monarchy was overthrown by its military branch? Its happened before...several times in history

so yeah, its a darned good idea that we sell em $20bil of the worlds most advanced war equipment - cause you know everyone in Saudi just LOVES the Royal Family and no one would ever dream of overthrowing them! Even if they had the tools to do so!

If what we sold them kept the government more stable I am not sure if that would be good or bad. But F-16's and other offensive weapons will not help that government stay upright from the insurgency that will likely come from within. When that happens what will the insurgents do with those types of weapons -- burn them? -- maybe. Sell them? Use them against us -- like Iraq? I am not sure, but I think we should at least be consistent -- if the people there hate us -- if no infidel is allowed into Mecca, no Bible allowed in that country, if we are the "Great Satan" -- I don’t want to give them Jack (except lower oil prices.)

[RkyMtnThunder]

If what we sold them kept the government more stable I am not sure if that would be good or bad. But F-16's and other offensive weapons will not help that government stay upright from the insurgency that will likely come from within. When that happens what will the insurgents do with those types of weapons -- burn them? -- maybe. Sell them? Use them against us -- like Iraq? I am not sure, but I think we should at least be consistent -- if the people there hate us -- if no infidel is allowed into Mecca, no Bible allowed in that country, if we are the "Great Satan" -- I don’t want to give them Jack (except lower oil prices.)

All it takes is a couple key strategic bullets - and the entire political landscape in Saudi could change. Wasnt Bin Laden a member of the Saudi Royal Family?

Who is to say there are NO Bin Laden sympathizers within the Royal Family
? Or perhaps someone with power, but perhaps not in line to the throne..shares Jihadist worldview...could stage a coup from within.

Like I said - a few strategic bullets could change everything.

And then we will be looking at how we hooked em up with $20bil worth of military goodies kinda like how everyone is looking at the Matt Schaub trade


"oops!"

[yavoon]

All it takes is a couple key strategic bullets - and the entire political landscape in Saudi could change. Wasnt Bin Laden a member of the Saudi Royal Family?

Who is to say there are NO Bin Laden sympathizers within the Royal Family
? Or perhaps someone with power, but perhaps not in line to the throne..shares Jihadist worldview...could stage a coup from within.

Like I said - a few strategic bullets could change everything.

And then we will be looking at how we hooked em up with $20bil worth of military goodies kinda like how everyone is looking at the Matt Schaub trade


"oops!"

ok smarty mcpants, lets say u tell the saudi's to shove it. the saudi's ask the russians for 20 billion worth of weapons and the russians say yes. the coup happens. how are u in ANY BETTER POSITION? what because now michael moore has a harder time making some moronic documentary about how "u sold weapons to a gov't that got overthrown." what kind of dunce foreign policy decision making is that?

[Bob]

All it takes is a couple key strategic bullets - and the entire political landscape in Saudi could change. Wasnt Bin Laden a member of the Saudi Royal Family?

Who is to say there are NO Bin Laden sympathizers within the Royal Family
? Or perhaps someone with power, but perhaps not in line to the throne..shares Jihadist worldview...could stage a coup from within.

Like I said - a few strategic bullets could change everything.

And then we will be looking at how we hooked em up with $20bil worth of military goodies kinda like how everyone is looking at the Matt Schaub trade


"oops!"

I hear you --we may be saying a simular thing -- what I dont know is when/if the Saudi empire falls what would the landscape look like? Right now that government in my opinion is 80% evil -- if that government was toppled I would be VERY surprised if a government took its place that was not far more hostle. So do we meddle? Do we do anything to prop them up -- considering what might be put in its place? Most of me says nope... we should not get our hands in it -- Thats all. On this issue I guess most of me wants to stay the heck away... but as my crystal ball is broken....all I have left are my Spider senses... and they are telling me that if that house of cards falls we will be the worse off for it. Damned either way I am afraid.

[RkyMtnThunder]

ok smarty mcpants, lets say u tell the saudi's to shove it. the saudi's ask the russians for 20 billion worth of weapons and the russians say yes. the coup happens. how are u in ANY BETTER POSITION? what because now michael moore has a harder time making some moronic documentary about how "u sold weapons to a gov't that got overthrown." what kind of dunce foreign policy decision making is that?




You just got your panties in a bunch because people dont think this is such a wonderful idea

I bet if it was Clinton who signed off on this deal you would be bitching to high heaven (you know its true)

[RkyMtnThunder]

I hear you --we may be saying a simular thing -- what I dont know is when/if the Saudi empire falls what would the landscape look like? Right now that government in my opinion is 80% evil -- if that government was toppled I would be VERY surprised if a government took its place that was not far more hostle. So do we meddle? Do we do anything to prop them up -- considering what might be put in its place? Most of me says nope... we should not get our hands in it -- Thats all. On this issue I guess most of me wants to stay the heck away... but as my crystal ball is broken....all I have left are my Spider senses... and they are telling me that if that house of cards falls we will be the worse off for it. Damned either way I am afraid.


Even if current power remains in place - Their 'loyalty' will die with our dependence on foreign oil...whenever that happens, whos to say...

I feel your spidey sense and think its worth listening to.

Too many 'what ifs' here. Its not like Saudi Arabia = Canada where we could sell them anything and never worry about them shoving it back up our asses someday.

Its MECCA for crying out loud!!!

(not suggesting I am anti-Islamic - but one has got to be a fool if they did not think Jihadist world view was alive in well in Saudi)

[Bob]

ok smarty mcpants, lets say u tell the saudi's to shove it. the saudi's ask the russians for 20 billion worth of weapons and the russians say yes. the coup happens. how are u in ANY BETTER POSITION? what because now michael moore has a harder time making some moronic documentary about how "u sold weapons to a gov't that got overthrown." what kind of dunce foreign policy decision making is that?

But Yavoon, what about issues of right and wrong? It feels wrong to me to treat that government as if they were not complicit in the deaths of thousands of Americans. They were connected to it – if not directly, their people ideologically embraced the notion that the USA is the Great Satan – and when the towers went down many there rejoiced. This is not about right and left -- it is about right and wrong. Don’t take lesions of morality from Machiavelli “the end justifies the means” You and I may have a similar take on the threat of radical Islam, so if the people in that country for the most part want us dead -- should we be selling them ANYTHING that will be used to kill their enemies -- as we are the enemy? Are you taking a Faustian position not understanding what happened in that poor bargain?

[yavoon]

You just got your panties in a bunch because people dont think this is such a wonderful idea

I bet if it was Clinton who signed off on this deal you would be b****ing to high heaven (you know its true)

no, its not true, but thanks for simply lying about me to supposedly make ur point better, nothing quite as fun in an argument as a liar.. and I'm VERY OPEN to ANY foreign policy avenues that lead away from saudi arabia. I hate the god damn saudi's. but I'm not such a giant moron as to run foreign policy decision making on this combination of bizarre irony avoidance. if any of u put two synapses together and came up w/ an idea that had any merit I would be relatively easy to convince. but u don't.

[TheDave]

Well...us not selling them arms they want means they go get another seller. So why not. It's really simple. We didn't create the market. The market came to us. While not preferable, we are doing what is in our best interest.

I swear I heard a drug dealer give the exact same argument. Didn't sound much better when he said it either.

[yavoon]

I swear I heard a drug dealer give the exact same argument. Didn't sound much better when he said it either.

thank god we don't run foreign policy as analogy contests, cuz there is some serious analogy slinging going on here! so now nations having armies is like ppl using drugs? I got it! should we arrest the saudi gov't for using(posession of army?)

[TheDave]

thank god we don't run foreign policy as analogy contests, cuz there is some serious analogy slinging going on here! so now nations having armies is like ppl using drugs? I got it! should we arrest the saudi gov't for using(posession of army?)


If you spent a little less time pretending you were smarter than everyone this would go a lot easier.

Selling billions of dollars of weapons to a country that is currently the breading ground for "Alqueda in Iraq" is a stupid idea and borders on treason. Using the excuse that if we don't do it someone else will is pathetic.

Why don't we arm the jerk-offs in the Sudan... Hell if we don't someone else will... Right?

This kind of action is exactly what creates the Blow-Back that was 9/11. Every time one of the jerk-off dictators kills a bunch of people with our weapons hatred of the U.S. is rekindled. With the middle east as ****ed up as it is maybe we should try a different foreign policy tactic than adding 50,000,000,000 in weapons to the region.

[Rigs11]

because they are jews and they shoot back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7_LfghKTrk

wow that is brilliant post.do us a favor and go back to school juniorHilarious!

[Garcia Bronco]

I swear I heard a drug dealer give the exact same argument. Didn't sound much better when he said it either.

It's a shrewd move indeed, but from a strategic point of view it's necessary.

[baja]

I have been wondering what a yavoon is so I looked it up;

yavoon [ya vun ] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a thick, cheeselike, sebaceous secretion that collects beneath the foreskin or around the clitoris.
[Origin: 1810–20; < L < Gk smêgma unguent, soap, cleansing medicine]

[TheDave]

It's a shrewd move indeed, but from a strategic point of view it's necessary.

I couldn't disagree more... There has to be a better way to handle the situation than adding $50,000,000,000 in weapons to this area of the world. Let these idiots fend for themselves. They don't need to be blowing up each other with our ****.

Next time a bomb goes off and kills 100 people in a mosc(?) let it be a russian symbol on the shapnel...

[yavoon]

I have been wondering what a yavoon is so I looked it up;

yavoon [ya vun ] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a thick, cheeselike, sebaceous secretion that collects beneath the foreskin or around the clitoris.
[Origin: 1810–20; < L < Gk smêgma unguent, soap, cleansing medicine]

hahaha.

[yavoon]

wow that is brilliant post.do us a favor and go back to school juniorHilarious!

if u think arab racism is a laughing matter then fine.

[baja]

hahaha.

I knew you would like that..

[baja]

I couldn't disagree more... There has to be a better way to handle the situation than adding $50,000,000,000 in weapons to this area of the world. Let these idiots fend for themselves. They don't need to be blowing up each other with our ****.

Next time a bomb goes off and kills 100 people in a mosc(?) let it be a russian symbol on the shapnel...

Are you kidding weaponry is the only thing we have left to sell, China makes everything else. ;D

[Rigs11]

if u think arab racism is a laughing matter then fine.

wasn't laughing at the vid, was laughing at your non attempt to answer any of the questions that i posted.figures

[yavoon]

wasn't laughing at the vid, was laughing at your non attempt to answer any of the questions that i posted.figures

first line of ur post:

"hmmm..maybe you should ask yourself why all the hatred towards israel by basically every country in the middle east."

=watch video.

[TailgateNut]

I have been wondering what a yavoon is so I looked it up;

yavoon [ya vun ] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a thick, cheeselike, sebaceous secretion that collects beneath the foreskin or around the clitoris.
[Origin: 1810–20; < L < Gk smêgma unguent, soap, cleansing medicine]


Yikes

I always knew he had some serious issues!

"it" doesn't exist for me anymore!

It's a good day!

[Ninjafied]

Here’s a theory for the day: the weapons sale was a counter-balance to the recent US/Iran negotiations.
Obviously the no. 1 priority in the ME is Iraq’s stability. To achieve that, Iran needs to be involved. However, our “friends”, the Saudis, don’t. Obviously the House of Saud is not happy about loosing any power, particularly since they are the Sunni capital. So before the US can continue to f*** with the balance in the region and give the Shiites more say, they need give SA some security. Off goes $20bil of America’s best (because an F16 does kill more Shiites than a mig).
Just a thought……

[alkemical]

Well...us not selling them arms they want means they go get another seller. So why not. It's really simple. We didn't create the market. The market came to us. While not preferable, we are doing what is in our best interest.

The comment above, is a perfect example of the "white man's burden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden)".

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

[alkemical]

how will it "bite us in the ass." because if something bad happens w/ saudi weaponry it will be f-15's instead of migs? is any1 gna be less dead? u muppets are dragged around by ur balls by the whimsically propagandist notions u have.


Oh my god, the russians might make money selling weapons! Those evil ruskies!!!

You live in an imaginary world, where all words are 3char long and communication is done by crayon.

[alkemical]

If you spent a little less time pretending you were smarter than everyone this would go a lot easier.

Selling billions of dollars of weapons to a country that is currently the breading ground for "Alqueda in Iraq" is a stupid idea and borders on treason. Using the excuse that if we don't do it someone else will is pathetic.

Why don't we arm the jerk-offs in the Sudan... Hell if we don't someone else will... Right?

This kind of action is exactly what creates the Blow-Back that was 9/11. Every time one of the jerk-off dictators kills a bunch of people with our weapons hatred of the U.S. is rekindled. With the middle east as ****ed up as it is maybe we should try a different foreign policy tactic than adding 50,000,000,000 in weapons to the region.



Ding ding ding ding - I'd tell you won something - but well - you know how it is.

[TailgateNut]

Oh my god, the russians might make money selling weapons! Those evil ruskies!!!

You live in an imaginary world, where all words are 3char long and communication is done by crayon.


Hilarious!

[Garcia Bronco]

Giving 30 billion in order to get permission to sell 20 billion, that sounds wise.

there is a time factor though that you are disregarding

[alkemical]

there is a time factor though that you are disregarding

Yep, all the good sales never really last long.....

[baja]

On so the deal looks better to you because the 10 billion dollar deficit is spread over ten years and is borrowed money to boot.

[TailgateNut]

On so the deal looks better to you because the 10 billion dollar deficit is spread over ten years and is borrowed money to boot.



It's just another "dumb****" move by the genius. He has to rub asses with the Saudi goverment which in turn pisses of the Jews, so he has to shove money in their pocket.

WHAT A BUNCH OF BS!

**** 'em both!

What's in it for US, aside from the possibilty of getting killed by our own arms.

Don't give me "lower oil prices", because after the deal is done, they will welch on that!

[yavoon]

Oh my god, the russians might make money selling weapons! Those evil ruskies!!!

You live in an imaginary world, where all words are 3char long and communication is done by crayon.

and the russians might become good allies w/ the saudi's and we might become bad ones, and then of course its like bush redux, no allies!

[Denver Crush]

and the russians might become good allies w/ the saudi's and we might become bad ones, and then of course its like bush redux, no allies!

Thats pretty much where we are today. Our only allies are corrupt, in it for the money or afraid our rogue president will shock and awe them.

[yavoon]

Thats pretty much where we are today. Our only allies are corrupt, in it for the money only.

only in the ****tier parts of the world, which tends to be pretty common. anyway the pathetic childish reductionism going on in this thread is laughable. I'm glad this kind of group moron think isn't actually followed in US diplomacy.

[alkemical]

and the russians might become good allies w/ the saudi's and we might become bad ones, and then of course its like bush redux, no allies!

I think you are a member of the bush administration. You make no sense when you talk and when you finally do make a point, it's rather pointless. Did you get an oxymoronic-nickname too? Since the decider cant' decide, did they call you 'the communicator'?

[yavoon]

I think you are a member of the bush administration. You make no sense when you talk and when you finally do make a point, it's rather pointless. Did you get an oxymoronic-nickname too? Since the decider cant' decide, did they call you 'the communicator'?

omg yes u found me out! the game is up! can u shutup and go away now? I'm not terribly in the mood to talk to someone quite as stupid as u at the moment.

[alkemical]

omg yes u found me out! the game is up! can u shutup and go away now? I'm not terribly in the mood to talk to someone quite as stupid as u at the moment.


That's ok - at least i'm not the OM's STD. Now hurry up and see what cobra commander is up to!

[yavoon]

That's ok - at least i'm not the OM's STD. Now hurry up and see what cobra commander is up to!

wow a GI joe reference? ur some special kind of stupid.

[alkemical]

wow a GI joe reference? ur some special kind of stupid.

At least i'm creative, and i don't leave an icky discharge over the 'mane.

[RkyMtnThunder]

no, its not true, but thanks for simply lying about me to supposedly make ur point better, nothing quite as fun in an argument as a liar.. .

My opinion of you based off how you carry yourself in threads on this site is that you are strongly biased.

You consider my opinion of you a 'lie'? You leave a lot to be desired upstairs as opinion is no more 'fact' than a 'lie'. Opinions are just that.

You also seem to over estimate your intellect while appearing to have the typing skills of a 13 year old girl. There is a lot of comedy about you, especially how you react to those who dont agree with you. You get owned by almost everyone and dont even realize it. Kinda like boob in that respect

[RkyMtnThunder]

After a night to sleep on this issue


I still dont think its a good idea.

I am with everyone else who questions the wisdom of sending this much weaponry into the Middle East




But hey, if you have a vested interest in the military industrial complex - you love this idea!

Good thing our leaders have no vested interest in military industrial complex!

Cause then I would have to be a little suspicious!


errr......

[yavoon]

My opinion of you based off how you carry yourself in threads on this site is that you are strongly biased.

You consider my opinion of you a 'lie'? You leave a lot to be desired upstairs as opinion is no more 'fact' than a 'lie'. Opinions are just that.

You also seem to over estimate your intellect while appearing to have the typing skills of a 13 year old girl. There is a lot of comedy about you, especially how you react to those who dont agree with you. You get owned by almost everyone and dont even realize it. Kinda like boob in that respect

what u said, "I bet if it was Clinton who signed off on this deal you would be b****ing to high heaven (you know its true)"

=lie. u may think so highly of ur opinion that u can magically transform it into truth, but its still a lie, and ur still a liar.

and I'm not bitching to high heaven, like I've told the peanut gallery I'd LOVE to stick it to the saudi's, but that doesn't mean I'm as stupid as u r. what will not selling weapons to the saudi's accomplish in reality? NOTHING. it will piss the saudi's off, drive them into china and/or russia's arms and the saudi's main weapons against us madrassa funding WILL HAVE GONE DOWN ZERO %. so basically 100% of the bad that saudi arabia does will continue, only now we will have even less influence, and have fewer allies.

BOY I hope u get a state dept. post tomorrow! u can bring all ur amazing strategorizing there.

[RkyMtnThunder]

what u said, "I bet if it was Clinton who signed off on this deal you would be b****ing to high heaven (you know its true)"

=lie. u may think so highly of ur opinion that u can magically transform it into truth, but its still a lie, and ur still a liar.

and I'm not b****ing to high heaven, like I've told the peanut gallery I'd LOVE to stick it to the saudi's, but that doesn't mean I'm as stupid as u r. what will not selling weapons to the saudi's accomplish in reality? NOTHING. it will piss the saudi's off, drive them into china and/or russia's arms and the saudi's main weapons against us madrassa funding WILL HAVE GONE DOWN ZERO %. so basically 100% of the bad that saudi arabia does will continue, only now we will have even less influence, and have fewer allies.

BOY I hope u get a state dept. post tomorrow! u can bring all ur amazing strategorizing there.




And you dont think highly of your opinions? Or yourself?

Dude you are flailing here - grasping at straws and making next to no sense whatsoever in a feeble attempt to save face. I have told no lies, I have stated my opinion - which seems to have touched a nerve.

And you still type like a kid on myspace, and could use a spell checker in the worst way...this does not help you as you pat yourself on the back labeling others as 'stupid'.

[yavoon]

And you dont think highly of your opinions? Or yourself?

Dude you are flailing here - grasping at straws and making next to no sense whatsoever in a feeble attempt to save face. I have told no lies, I have stated my opinion - which seems to have touched a nerve.

And you still type like a kid on myspace, and could use a spell checker in the worst way...this does not help you as you pat yourself on the back labeling others as 'stupid'.

there is no attempt to save face, my opinion hasn't changed since page 1. the fact that all the morons suggestions add up to logic bush would use, that is incredibly reductionist with zero attention to actual practical outcomes just proves how feeble u r. ur running away from bush by thinking like bush.

the saudi's and all countries have to be dealt w/ ACCORDINGLY, not just whimsical "oh we dont like them lets stick it to em." I'm sorry that foreign policy based upon practical outcomes is beyond ur comprehension, I really am.

[Bronco Bob]

till a liar.

and I'm not b****ing to high heaven, like I've told the peanut gallery I'd LOVE to stick it to the saudi's, but that doesn't mean I'm as stupid as u r. what will not selling weapons to the saudi's accomplish in reality? NOTHING. it will piss the saudi's off, drive them into china and/or russia's arms and the saudi's main weapons against us madrassa funding WILL HAVE GONE DOWN ZERO %. so basically 100% of the bad that saudi arabia does will continue, only now we will have even less influence, and have fewer allies.



The point u r missing is that when the Saudi king is overthrown, at least the
Jihadists won't b using r own weapons against us. They will b forced to use
either inferior Russian or inferior Chinese weapons against us.
And u c how well that worked 4 Saddam's army against us, and 4 the other
Arab armies when they went against Israel.

[yavoon]

The point u r missing is that when the Saudi king is overthrown, at least the
Jihadists won't b using r own weapons against us. They will b forced to use
either inferior Russian or inferior Chinese weapons against us.
And u c how well that worked 4 Saddam's army against us, and 4 the other
Arab armies when they went against Israel.

will that make ppl less dead? and I don't think the saudi's are quite as close to being overthrown as u ppl think, they spend A LOT on a military, they don't hold to anything even remotely resembling western moral standards. any insurgency against house saud will end worse then that refugee camp in lebanon which I guess now is obliterated by the lebanese army.

I notice its a common meme to think that a few terrorists displeased w/ house saud would be able to overthrow it, thats fluff. if we're pretending house saud is in danger I'd be much more inclined to see it as danger from iran and shiite iraq. when we leave iraq, if the shiites in iraq go postal on the sunni's the saudi's clerical establishment will do the whole jihad thing they are doing now, only now there are no more western morals in play. so iran/iraq can respond a lot more vigorously. that IMO could escalate far faster then any kind of intra-saudi insurgency.

[baja]

and I'm not b****ing to high heaven, like I've told the peanut gallery I'd LOVE to stick it to the saudi's, but that doesn't mean I'm as stupid as u r. what will not selling weapons to the saudi's accomplish in reality? NOTHING. it will piss the saudi's off, drive them into china and/or russia's arms and the saudi's main weapons against us madrassa funding WILL HAVE GONE DOWN ZERO %. so basically 100% of the bad that saudi arabia does will continue, only now we will have even less influence, and have fewer allies.

Actually I have to agree with Yavoom here.

Our least worst choice here is to provide the weapons.

Just goes to show ya how fuccked up the world is.

I do not agree that 30B in arms should be gifted to Israel

[baja]

The point u r missing is that when the Saudi king is overthrown, at least the
Jihadists won't b using r own weapons against us. They will b forced to use
either inferior Russian or inferior Chinese weapons against us.
And u c how well that worked 4 Saddam's army against us, and 4 the other
Arab armies when they went against Israel.

Keep in mind if the scenario you suggest came to pass what ever weapons systems they have they will need support and parts. If we end up opposing them I want them to be stuck with our weapons and no parts or teck support

[Bob]

Are you kidding weaponry is the only thing we have left to sell, China makes everything else. ;D

Actually with each passing year they are making a larger and larger percentages of our planes -- I think we are still assembling the really cool decals though dont worry.

[yavoon]

Actually I have to agree with Yavoom here.

Our least worst choice here is to provide the weapons.

Just goes to show ya how fuccked up the world is.

I do not agree that 30B in arms should be gifted to Israel

yah, israel doesn't need our weapons. a lot of theirs are better anyway, and atleast for now no conventional army stands a chance, even though israel is obviously very small.

[Bob]

what u said, "I bet if it was Clinton who signed off on this deal you would be b****ing to high heaven (you know its true)"

=lie. u may think so highly of ur opinion that u can magically transform it into truth, but its still a lie, and ur still a liar.

and I'm not b****ing to high heaven, like I've told the peanut gallery I'd LOVE to stick it to the saudi's, but that doesn't mean I'm as stupid as u r. what will not selling weapons to the saudi's accomplish in reality? NOTHING. it will piss the saudi's off, drive them into china and/or russia's arms and the saudi's main weapons against us madrassa funding WILL HAVE GONE DOWN ZERO %. so basically 100% of the bad that saudi arabia does will continue, only now we will have even less influence, and have fewer allies.

BOY I hope u get a state dept. post tomorrow! u can bring all ur amazing strategorizing there.

What do we get? We get to to the right thing -- and not sell our soul to the devil to make a buck. It would have been un-American to sell arms to Hitler in 38, just as it is un-American to sell arms to a country (whose people believe we are the Great Satan.) So, yes, if we didnt sell them arms, someone else would -- and the blood would be on thier hands. You are so wrong on this -- are they are our freinds? There government is funding hundreds of schools to teach the principles of death to the infidel (that would be you and me folks) and you want to turn a blind eye to that for a buck? Where is your freaking soul? How caculating can you be? Is there one scrap of you that believes that America should stand for what is good and right in the world? IF you dont believe in that -- what does that make you? It makes you an ideological prostitute that is willing to sell your virtue for a buck.

If Bush is wrong -- do the right thing, and call him on it. I have agreed with many of your takes on subjects in the past -- but THIS issue is about right and wrong -- not left and right. IF they are the enemy (which you preach over and over correctly) you cant get in bed with them ...

[yavoon]

What do we get? We get to to the right thing -- and not sell our soul to the devil to make a buck. It would have been un-American to sell arms to Hitler in 38, just as it is un-American to sell arms to a country (whose people believe we are the Great Satan.) So, yes, if we didnt sell them arms, someone else would -- and the blood would be on thier hands. You are so wrong on this -- are they are our freinds? There government is funding hundreds of schools to teach the principles of death to the infidel (that would be you and me folks) and you want to turn a blind eye to that for a buck? Where is your freaking soul? How caculating can you be? Is there one scrap of you that believes that America should stand for what is good and right in the world? IF you dont believe in that -- what does that make you? It makes you an ideological prostitute that is willing to sell your virtue for a buck.

If Bush is wrong -- do the right thing, and call him on it. I have agreed with many of your takes on subjects in the past -- but THIS issue is about right and wrong -- not left and right. IF they are the enemy (which you preach over and over correctly) you cant get in bed with them ...

was it unamerican to sell arms to the soviets in WWII? and there is room to disagree here, but I would appreciate a more subtle/practical view.

=D

as for how the saudi's are hurting us, by exporting their murderous religious ideology. I say we fight them on THAT front, we seize funds, stop charities w/ saudi roots, run political campaigns about how wrong saudi's religious teachings are, make it an issue at the UN. attack saudi where saudi is hurting us.

[baja]

Course the real solution is independance from middle east oil.

[Bob]

I am duct-taping solar collection devices from 10,000 caculators on my car right now ... cant figure out how to get that gerbal mounted on my tranie to run any faster though...

In all seriousness though, you are 100% correct -- over the past three years the six nation states in that region (that export the most oil to the West)have aquired a 550 million dollar surplus -- thats just the disposable income folks -- directly from my pocket to the local Maddrassa.

[Bronco Bob]

I am duct-taping solar collection devices from 10,000 caculators on my car right now ... cant figure out how to get that gerbal mounted on my tranie to run any faster though...

In all seriousness though, you are 100% correct -- over the past three years the six nation states in that region (that export the most oil to the West)have aquired a 550 million dollar surplus -- thats just the disposable income folks -- directly from my pocket to the local Maddrassa.

This isn't quite as far fetched as you think. There are people with Prius's
who are putting solar cells on the roof of them to help charge up the
batteries while it is sitting out in the parking lot. You figure you are at
work 8 hours, that's an 8 hour charge on the batteries, all free.
And a couple less gallons of gas bought from King Saud.

[Bob]

This isn't quite as far fetched as you think. There are people with Prius's
who are putting solar cells on the roof of them to help charge up the
batteries while it is sitting out in the parking lot. You figure you are at
work 8 hours, that's an 8 hour charge on the batteries, all free.
And a couple less gallons of gas bought from King Saud.

Well, I guess if people can save a buck or two, and not waste gas -- I say great. Sometimes I think there are some very good things that could be done to conserve but they rarely get traction. What is your take on Nuclear power? France is getting the majority of there energy from that source, that produces no greenhouse gases, and I wonder if that source is truly as unsafe as people think, or that we have been conditioned to think it is worse than it really is. One idea that has been touted lately is ethanol from Corn product, yet the amount of land needed to get the fuel needed to meet our needs is through the roof, and may have unintended consequences. So I wonder if it is hard to cut through the spin on some of these issues and get at what would be best from a conservation standpoint long-term.

In Montana there is a "clean coal" power plant that is being opposed by environmentalists (that I don’t think even live in Montana.) I am not an expert on such things, but I think that most environmentalists that I see in the media focus on cutting back on use, while not doing much to generate more power -- even through creative, clean, and local sources. What I think is interesting is the recent poll conducted as to the reason people who own Prius's -- the number one reason was "that is says something about me, the number two reason: styling, the number three reason was to save money/use less gas ...

[Bronco Bob]

Well, I guess if people can save a buck or two, and not waste gas -- I say great. Sometimes I think there are some very good things that could be done to conserve but they rarely get traction. What is your take on Nuclear power?

For it. People get all panicked about nuclear power plants, thinking they
release huge amounts of radiation into the air. But what they don't
realize is that one coal fired power plant releases far more radioactive
Polonium into the air than all the radiation from all the nuclear power
plants in the entire US.


France is getting the majority of there energy from that source, that produces no greenhouse gases, and I wonder if that source is truly as unsafe as people think, or that we have been conditioned to think it is worse than it really is.

So is Japan. Though they need to be a little smarter where they build them.

One idea that has been touted lately is ethanol from Corn product, yet the amount of land needed to get the fuel needed to meet our needs is through the roof, and may have unintended consequences.

Corn is a lousy choice to make ethanol from, and there are better organic
fuels than ethanol. Hemp would be an ideal crop to grow because
it can be grown on very marginal land. And the seeds can be pressed
for oil to make a high grade bio-diesel. If we went to bio-diesel hybrids
run on hemp seed oil we could be almost completely energy independent.
The only reason they are making ethanol is it gives the farmers
somewhere to sell their corn, and people are used to driving gasoline
powered vehicles. We need to look to the long term.



In Montana there is a "clean coal" power plant that is being opposed by environmentalists (that I don’t think even live in Montana.) I am not an expert on such things, but I think that most environmentalists that I see in the media focus on cutting back on use, while not doing much to generate more power -- even through creative, clean, and local sources. What I think is interesting is the recent poll conducted as to the reason people who own Prius's -- the number one reason was "that is says something about me, the number two reason: styling, the number three reason was to save money/use less gas ...

Unless the CO2 emission are dealt with a coal plant is a non-solution.
There is some sort of a coal plant that somehow isolates the CO2
underground, that might work. Hopefully they would also deal with
the radioactive by products in the coal. But the best way to store
CO2 from coal and the radioactive elements in coal is to leave the coal
as coal and leave it underground.

As to buying a Prius because it says something about them, I guess
what it says is they are concerned about the environment, which
isn't a bad thing. That there is a car out there that is more environment
friendly that still looks good enough to get people to buy it is also
a good thing.

[mosca]

we're not talking about WMD's, or whatever the hell else. we're talking about as far as I know conventional military arms. u ppl are really being myopic here. like saudi arabia isn't gna have an army if we don't sell weapons to them? its retarded, if they don't have f-16's, they'll have migs and sukhois.
Even these conventional military arms may find their way into the hands of terrorists ... I imagine that it's not only jets and tanks we're selling them, but also ammunition, artillery, explosives, missiles, etc. Look what happened when, after the fall of Saddamn, much of the Iraqi military's ordnance wasn't secured, then was looted and stolen, and ended up in the hands of insurgents or Jihadist terrorists. Many of these weapons were then used against our troops and on other Iraqis.

It's not too much of a stretch to imagine the same thing happening in Saudi Arabia, with OR without the House of Saud falling from power.

[yavoon]

btw I just remembered, iran has american f-14's all the way from the islamic revolution that they can't get parts for. so there's an interesting situation of basically what we are talking about.

[W*GS]

Does anyone know how much Saudi Arabia spent on US-made weapons from 1990-2000?

[mhgaffney]

Does anyone know how much Saudi Arabia spent on US-made weapons from 1990-2000?

I can tell you this much: Saudi Arabia has spent more on weapons (mostly US) over the last 3-4 decades per capita than any nation on earth.

They have more weapons than they could ever use.

This happened because of US pressure on Saudi leaders to exchange much of their oil revenues for US technology.

We sent them Halliburton and other corporations to modernize their nation. We built their brand new cities, highways, airports, and other infrastructure.

We also sold them untold billions in weapons.

This is why so many US diplomats, generals and politicians go into the business of schmoozing with S Arabian princes when they retire.

It's why Henry Kissinger resigned rather than lead the 911 investigation -- he would have had to make public his Saudi connections.

Ths is the back door and oil wealth that has corrupted Washington politics for 50 years.

It works both ways. It corrupts us and them -- alike.

It will end only when America oves away from oil -- and embraces abundant clean energy alternatives --

[Bronco Bob]

Does anyone know how much Saudi Arabia spent on US-made weapons from 1990-2000?

No, but as it looks like you are trying to find a way to bash Clinton
yet again, judging by the date range, I'm sure you will tell us all, down
to the penny. While you are at it, as an encore, how about telling
us how much Saudi Arabia spent on US made weapons from 1980
to 1990 and from 2000 to the present.

[mhgaffney]

For it. People get all panicked about nuclear power plants, thinking they
release huge amounts of radiation into the air. But what they don't
realize is that one coal fired power plant releases far more radioactive
Polonium into the air than all the radiation from all the nuclear power
plants in the entire US.



Spoken like a true pro nuclear moron.

You don't have a clue of what you speak. You confuse the issue by speaking about ONE element -- polonium

What about the other 200+ transuranics and radioactive isotopes and daughter products that are produced by EVERY nuclear reactor???

No mention of this.

Every nuclear reactor on this palnet leaks radiation -- and this is equivalent to fallout from nuclear tests. This leaked radiation kills babies in the womb and causes cancers downwind of nuke plants -- not to mention the genetic damage to future generations.

There is no free lunch --- I understand this. But the nuclear path leads to a devastated planet --

There must be a better way -- and there is.

[SoCalBronco]

Domenik Hixon invented clean coal technology.

No joke.

[Bronco Bob]

Spoken like a true pro nuclear moron.

You don't have a clue of what you speak. You confuse the issue by speaking about ONE element -- polonium

What about the other 200+ transuranics and radioactive isotopes and daughter products that are produced by EVERY nuclear reactor???

No mention of this.

Every nuclear reactor on this palnet leaks radiation -- and this is equivalent to fallout from nuclear tests. This leaked radiation kills babies in the womb and causes cancers downwind of nuke plants -- not to mention the genetic damage to future generations.

There is no free lunch --- I understand this. But the nuclear path leads to a devastated planet --

There must be a better way -- and there is.

Spoken like a true anti-nuclear power plant moron. I don't know where you
are getting this nonsense about a nuclear power plant releasing the same
amount of fallout as a nuclear test, but the amount of radioactive
materials burning coal releases into the air far excedes any trace amounts
a nuclear plant releases. A nuclear plant is designed not to release radiation.
A coal plant by design releases it's toxins into the air, because there
is no where else for them to go. And that's just the radioactive toxins,
that's not including the sulfur dioxides, the nitrogen oxides, and
the CO2 which has the capability to make the earth so hot it will
be uninhabitable for humans.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/iran-contra-sequel.jpg

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Domenik Hixon invented clean coal technology.
No joke.Only a staunch Republican would think that is funny.
Is there some reason that would prevent you from replying on topic?