Pat Tillman was murdered?

[Atlas]

OMG! I so hope this isn't true.

SoCals Link: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003617692

Was Tillman Murdered?
AP Gets New Documents



Published: July 26, 2007 11:30 PM ET

SAN FRANCISCO Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

Among other information contained in the documents:

-- In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

-- Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

-- The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

-- No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.

With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week.

The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public.

In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

"Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

"He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

"Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

[SoCalBronco]

That makes me sick.

I really hope it is not true.

[sirhcyennek81]

Murdered or not, this is twisted.


:Broncos:

[Orange_Beard]

What a nightmare.

[baja]

Three shots to the forehead at close range does not sound like a case of mistaken identity.

[Florida_Bronco]

I guess it's possible, but keep in mind that the M-16 is a very accurate rifle, especially in the hands of Army Rangers, who are on the edge of the elite, so even from a distance and under friendly fire, it's possible to shoot very tight groups.

Either way, I really hope this isn't true.

[ludo21]

this is getting out of hand. Tillman died tragically, why wont the media just let it alone. Regardless of how it happened, its over, and the constant media attention and news is unfair to his family imo.

[sirhcyennek81]

If its a murder, I expect anyone investigating it to do their job. IF it was murder.


:Broncos:

[baja]

this is getting out of hand. Tillman died tragically, why wont the media just let it alone. Regardless of how it happened,<b> its over, and the constant media attention and news is unfair to his family imo.</b>

His mother has been seeking explanations all along.

Oddly it seems she would like to have the truth about her son's death.

[Atlas]

That makes me sick.

I really hope it is not true.

I agree bro. His family deserves this to be over. It's like they live his death over and over again. They should have gotten on with their lives but yet three years later they still don't know the truth..... or maybe they know the truth and they don't realize it.

This is definately bad news.

[gunns]

</b>

His mother has been seeking explanations all along.

Oddly it seems she would like to have the truth about her son's death.

Imagine that.

[CSU Husker]

</b>

His mother has been seeking explanations all along.

Oddly it seems she would like to have the truth about her son's death.

Yeah, and heaven forbid that if there was foul play that the person be brought to justice.

[Atlas]

Murdered or not, this is twisted.


:Broncos:

Boy that is oversimplfying at it's best. Being MURDERED by your own men is a million times more twisted than dying in a friendly fire accident.

[Dukes]

Definitely explains the cover up. But at the same time, being a veteran, I'm surprised that everyone in the chain of command kept quiet about the alleged "cover up". If there was misconduct, I highly doubt everyone would go along with it.

[DenverBrit]

In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

That has been the Bush administration's mantra for some time now.
Don't you get a sinking feeling that when there is a change of administration
some awful truths will be revealed that will stun us all?

Tillman's family deserve the truth, no matter how painful it is for the Army and White House. The attempts at covering up this tragedy are a disgrace.

[Vegas_Bronco]

This administration has done a good job of revealing the many secrets the government likes to guard from the public/media - I like the truth that is revealed from having a 'simple-minded' administration.

I sure hope his family finds acceptable closure.

[Atlas]

Definitely explains the cover up. But at the same time, being a veteran, I'm surprised that everyone in the chain of command kept quiet about the alleged "cover up". If there was misconduct, I highly doubt everyone would go along with it.

It only takes 3 or 4 people to cover something up. I'm sure most of the people up the chain didn't know WTF happened.

[maher_tyler]

M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

-- In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

-- No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."


I wouldn't doubt it if it was the Bush administartion was trying to cover it up. With Tilman having such a high profile they prolly didn't want anyone to know what really happened.

[Gort]

That has been the Bush administration's mantra for some time now.
Don't you get a sinking feeling that when there is a change of administration
some awful truths will be revealed that will stun us all?

Tillman's family deserve the truth, no matter how painful it is for the Army and White House. The attempts at covering up this tragedy are a disgrace.

utter nonsense.

[Gort]

M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

-- In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

-- No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."


I wouldn't doubt it if it was the Bush administartion was trying to cover it up. With Tilman having such a high profile they prolly didn't want anyone to know what really happened.

you've watched too many X-Files episodes and your understanding of the ENORMOUS bureacracy of the DOD and the actual day to day responsibilities of the president of the USA is next to nil.

do you really believe there is some secret smokey room where the highest elected official and the joint chiefs of staff all sit around plotting to "cover-up" the details of friendly fire incidents that happen half a world away during the fog of war? c'mon and get real. this is the real world, not some hollywood version of reality.

this is the single worst thing that the liberal stranglehold on public education has done... it has stopped giving children important tools they will need as adults, such as critical thinking skills. that AP article doesn't pass the sniff test. even on the first read, anyone with a brain can tell it's BS.

[maher_tyler]

you've watched too many X-Files episodes and your understanding of the ENORMOUS bureacracy of the DOD and the actual day to day responsibilities of the president of the USA is next to nil.

do you really believe there is some secret smokey room where the highest elected official and the joint chiefs of staff all sit around plotting to "cover-up" the details of friendly fire incidents that happen half a world away during the fog of war? c'mon and get real. this is the real world, not some hollywood version of reality.

this is the single worst thing that the liberal stranglehold on public education has done... it has stopped giving children important tools they will need as adults, such as critical thinking skills. that AP article doesn't pass the sniff test. even on the first read, anyone with a brain can tell it's BS.

Were you saying the samething when they first said he was killed by enemy fire?? If it was an accident the guy who shot him is the one with no brain cells..10 yards away gun pointed straight smack dab in the middle of his forehead, how could that be a mistaken identity of an enemy who wears nothing resembling a uniform that the army does!! I'm not saying it was on purpose but it sounds a little fishy!!

[Gort]

Were you saying the samething when they first said he was killed by enemy fire?? If it was an accident the guy who shot him is the one with no brain cells..10 yards away gun pointed straight smack dab in the middle of his forehead, how could that be a mistaken identity of an enemy who wears nothing resembling a uniform that the army does!! I'm not saying it was on purpose but it sounds a little fishy!!

i don't doubt that some mid level PR flack in the Pentagon floated the story early on that he died as a hero before the facts were known. and if he was shot by friendly fire (as it appears he was), then there would be a natural inclination for the Pentagon PR folks to resist retracting the "hero" story quickly. but, in the 3(?) years since it's happened, the truth about it being a friendly fire incident has come out, exactly as you would expect in a free society like ours. after all the internal investigations and interviews with the soldiers there, and with the time that has passed, the truth has a way of finding the light.

but to suggest anything more sinister, with absolutely no proof, as this anonymous AP writer does, or to imply that there is some grand conspiracy to cover up the facts of the case (real or imaged), is laughable.

however, there is that small percentage of people who will always believe in conspiracy theories. the more convoluted and complex, the better for them.

that's the funny thing about the Bush presidency. those on the left have been ridiculing him as the dumbest president in history (he is not) and mocking him when it suits their purposes. however, they also call him some sort of criminal mastermind at the head of some grand conspiracy to blowup the WTC, to trick the world into thinking Saddam had WMDs, to invade Iraq in order to secretly confiscate their oil, and hand it off to their buddies in Haliburton, all without anyone ever finding out. this would require the IQ of a criminal mastermind that one only finds in James Bond movies. however, when this is the argument the liberal wants to make, then Bush must clearly be the most intelligent man to ever hold that office. so which is it? they can't have it both ways. either he's a dunce (who's earned multiple degrees at schools that 99.9% of the people reading this forum are not qualified to attend), or he's the most brilliant criminal mastermind in history.

[baja]

Or Bush is just a prop that is handled behind the scenes which is what most people are saying.

[HEAV]

Back in 02 I felt he was cuaght up in the hype of american pride and joined for the wrong reasons. It's great to have pride in your country. But you have to think and judge the situation with a clear head.

He left a muti-million dollar deal, on the table from AZ, to earn minimum wage in the army.

We all where lied to about what was goin on. I feel so sad for his parents and his widow.

He's been made a pawn by the government and army... sad.

To many young American men and women have been damaged from this government, not to mention the families of the troops that have to deal with the effects.

Sad times.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

however, when this is the argument the liberal wants to make, then Bush must clearly be the most intelligent man to ever hold that office. so which is it? they can't have it both ways. either he's a dunce (who's earned multiple degrees at schools that 99.9% of the people reading this forum are not qualified to attend), or he's the most brilliant criminal mastermind in history.Ah, so it's just the "liberals" who think the Tillman death is suspect and you're saying Bush is smarter than 99.9% of the people? And just how did he qualify to go to those schools, was it his outstanding grades?

It's been known for sometime the Bush administration had knowledge one week after Tillman's death that his own troops killed him but refused to state so instead letting the "hero" story continue to run.

[Popcorn Sutton]

this is getting out of hand. Tillman died tragically, why wont the media just let it alone. Regardless of how it happened, its over, and the constant media attention and news is unfair to his family imo.

His family is not letting this go.. They are pushing for answers as well they should.

[Garcia Bronco]

Wow...what kind of POS publishes something like that? Oh wait...it's our media. Never mind. Even if it's true, I just don't think it's something that should be published. Let the man's spirit rest.

[Drek]

either he's a dunce (who's earned multiple degrees at schools that 99.9% of the people reading this forum are not qualified to attend), or he's the most brilliant criminal mastermind in history.

He wasn't qualified to attend them. A former mentor and still very good friend of mine was the head of the University of Texas admissions office when GW applied. His entire office quite literally broke out laughing at his resume. He got into the schools he did because he was a legacy at schools were that carries more weight than everything except your parent's bank account (which was also in his favor).

[defenseman]

Definitely explains the cover up. But at the same time, being a veteran, I'm surprised that everyone in the chain of command kept quiet about the alleged "cover up". If there was misconduct, I highly doubt everyone would go along with it.

I have to agree with you on this. If foul play was utilized, I can't help but think someone in the COC wouldn't have ensured the truth was known. My experience echo's yours, have never seen a misconduct scenario where all parties in the COC went along with it. Someone always came clean...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Wow...what kind of POS publishes something like that? Oh wait...it's our media. Never mind. Even if it's true, I just don't think it's something that should be published. Let the man's spirit rest.Ssssssssh! Better to keep these kinds of things quiet.

The question really should be, what kind of a person advocates censorship?

[defenseman]

Ah, so it's just the "liberals" who think the Tillman death is suspect and you're saying Bush is smarter than 99.9% of the people? And just how did he qualify to go to those schools, was it his outstanding grades?

It's been known for sometime the Bush administration had knowledge one week after Tillman's death that his own troops killed him but refused to state so instead letting the "hero" story continue to run.

A link with rep is required....dman

*Are you inferring that 99.9% of the "people" are liberals?

[baja]

Back in 02 I felt he was cuaght up in the hype of american pride and joined for the wrong reasons. It's great to have pride in your country. But you have to think and judge the situation with a clear head.

He left a muti-million dollar deal, on the table from AZ, to earn minimum wage in the army.

We all where lied to about what was goin on. I feel so sad for his parents and his widow.

He's been made a pawn by the government and army... sad.

To many young American men and women have been damaged from this government, not to mention the families of the troops that have to deal with the effects.

Sad times.

Good post Dman

edit; oh I now see HEAV wrote this, good post HEAV

[Bronco_Beerslug]

A link with rep is required....dmanYou posted in the thread (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=54718&highlight=tillman), do you now care about it?
I could care less about this anymore. It's been hashed and re-hashed anything to make our own government look bad. Stow it...dman

*Are you inferring that 99.9% of the "people" are liberals?
Hardly, try reading it again.

[elsid13]

actually it sound more like blue on blue fire to me then murder. They were in rugged terrian, under fire and head suddenly pops up from cover right next to a ranger and he reacts and fires a burst (M16 fire 3 bullets in semi-automatic mode).

[Dedhed]

i don't doubt that some mid level PR flack in the Pentagon floated the story early on that he died as a hero before the facts were known. and if he was shot by friendly fire (as it appears he was), then there would be a natural inclination for the Pentagon PR folks to resist retracting the "hero" story quickly. but, in the 3(?) years since it's happened, the truth about it being a friendly fire incident has come out, exactly as you would expect in a free society like ours. after all the internal investigations and interviews with the soldiers there, and with the time that has passed, the truth has a way of finding the light.

but to suggest anything more sinister, with absolutely no proof, as this anonymous AP writer does, or to imply that there is some grand conspiracy to cover up the facts of the case (real or imaged), is laughable.

however, there is that small percentage of people who will always believe in conspiracy theories. the more convoluted and complex, the better for them.

that's the funny thing about the Bush presidency. those on the left have been ridiculing him as the dumbest president in history (he is not) and mocking him when it suits their purposes. however, they also call him some sort of criminal mastermind at the head of some grand conspiracy to blowup the WTC, to trick the world into thinking Saddam had WMDs, to invade Iraq in order to secretly confiscate their oil, and hand it off to their buddies in Haliburton, all without anyone ever finding out. this would require the IQ of a criminal mastermind that one only finds in James Bond movies. however, when this is the argument the liberal wants to make, then Bush must clearly be the most intelligent man to ever hold that office. so which is it? they can't have it both ways. either he's a dunce (who's earned multiple degrees at schools that 99.9% of the people reading this forum are not qualified to attend), or he's the most brilliant criminal mastermind in history.
I guess to the simple minded it would seem complex and convoluted that the establishment would want to keep it quiet that their poster boy for patriotism was gunned down by his own men. Hardly lives up to "be the best you can be" mantra.

BTW hardly anyone I know with conspiracy theories would attribute their origination to W's mind. If there are any true conspiracies, I would doubt W. is even in on them. You don't tell the simpleton your deepest secrets.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

actually it sound more like blue on blue fire to me then murder. They were in rugged terrian, under fire and head suddenly pops up from cover right next to a ranger and he reacts and fires a burst (M16 fire 3 bullets in semi-automatic mode).It's impossible to hold an automatic weapon in the same place once the first round discharges unless you're using tactical slings. It will immediately recoil right and up.

And unless using a scope trying to put three rounds in a silver dollar sized group from a distance is pretty unlikely.

[Garcia Bronco]

Ssssssssh! Better to keep these kinds of things quiet.

The question really should be, what kind of a person advocates censorship?

Typically I would agree with you, but then there is also good taste and proper handling of situations.

[elsid13]

It's impossible to hold an automatic weapon in the same place once the first round discharges unless you're using tactical slings. It will immediately recoil right and up .

That correct, but from the article "The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away"

From under ten yards in semi-auto it possible to get grouping like article states. Beside the article make inference but doesn't give another hard detail to support it claim. I really do think that someone f'ed up and it was accident. There was incident then the dumb ass that tried to "spin" it which made it worse

[backup qb]

</b>

His mother has been seeking explanations all along.

Oddly it seems she would like to have the truth about her son's death.

This might be the best quote I have seen. In order for anyone to have closure, they need the TRUTH!!!! For all of the greatness that America represents, the political b.s., ass covering, etc. are what will ultimately do us in.

[TailgateNut]

Wow...what kind of POS publishes something like that? Oh wait...it's our media. Never mind. Even if it's true, I just don't think it's something that should be published. Let the man's spirit rest.

A POS who would like to know why there are still inconsistencies with the goverments' second story about his death!

If I were the Tillman family, I would want the truth. THEY DESERVE THE TRUTH.

[TailgateNut]

Typically I would agree with you, but then there is also good taste and proper handling of situations.

Does "good taste" refer to sweeping the truth under the rug?

[Florida_Bronco]

I just don't see it. Why would another Ranger intentionally kill his own fellow soldier? Why would no one else in that unit come forward?

I'd need some substantial proof before I even considered that possibility.

[Taco John]

Wow...what kind of POS publishes something like that? Oh wait...it's our media. Never mind. Even if it's true, I just don't think it's something that should be published. Let the man's spirit rest.


Don't you think Pat Tillman is owed justice? Doesn't his story deserve to be known by the American people? I don't understand how someone could take a position to squash justice in favor of "letting his spirit rest" when there's a potential for foul play here.

[Taco John]

I really do think that someone f'ed up and it was accident.



I, too, think that this was probably the case. But what wasn't an accident is burning his fatigues, and lying about the circumstances of his death. Nobody accidentally covered this situation up. That part was done with intent.

[TailgateNut]

I just don't see it. Why would another Ranger intentionally kill his own fellow soldier? Why would no one else in that unit come forward?

I'd need some substantial proof before I even considered that possibility.



Strange things happen during war. Take the time and visit a local VFW and play some poker with some of the old timers. You'll be surprised at some of the horror stories.
My Grandfather in law was part of the Bataan death march and even I was surprised at the atrocities. Simply unimaginable. I also spent many nights with vietnam vets who, when they "opened up" their memories, it makes your skin crawl.
So, you can safely consider the "possibility"

[elsid13]

I, too, think that this was probably the case. But what wasn't an accident is burning his fatigues, and lying about the circumstances of his death. Nobody accidentally covered this situation up. That part was done with intent.

TJ - I understand why folks thought they needed to do such things, doesn't make right or legal but in thier own minds they thought they were doing the right things for the Tillmans and the country.

[Florida_Bronco]

Strange things happen during war. Take the time and visit a local VFW and play some poker with some of the old timers. You'll be surprised at some of the horror stories.
My Grandfather in law was part of the Bataan death march and even I was surprised at the atrocities. Simply unimaginable. I also spent many nights with vietnam vets who, when they "opened up" their memories, it makes your skin crawl.
So, you can safely consider the "possibility"

Oh believe me, I know it's possible. I guess the way I'm looking at it is that I have to much respect for our servicemen to think they murdered one of their own, unless there is solid proof.

I hope the truth comes out, I just hope the truth is that it was infact accidental friendly fire.

[Popps]

No matter how this turns out, it's a tragedy.

The difference is, whether or not people will be able to use his death as fodder for their political ranting or not. That's the thrust I'm seeing, not a true concern for the man's spirit. But, that's politics as usual... ugly, short-sighted and generally pointless.

[TailgateNut]

No matter how this turns out, it's a tragedy.

The difference is, whether or not people will be able to use his death as fodder for their political ranting or not. That's the thrust I'm seeing, not a true concern for the man's spirit. But, that's politics as usual... ugly, short-sighted and generally pointless.

I don't see this as only a political crutch. It's a matter of justice being served, and truth being revealed.
Why lie about a soldiers' death. Why. Was it a politically motivated ploy, or was it a coverup from intermediate COC?

[BroncoBen]

this is getting out of hand. Tillman died tragically, why wont the media just let it alone. Regardless of how it happened, its over, and the constant media attention and news is unfair to his family imo.

"Regardless of how it happened, its over"... ??

I believe the family has wanted an investigation. So any 'media' attention can only help shed light on the tragedy. I thought I heard the Bush Administration has put a lockdown on the official report, something about ‘executive privilege’ ?

[Atlas]

"Regardless of how it happened, its over"... ??

I believe the family has wanted an investigation. So any 'media' attention can only help shed light on the tragedy. I thought I heard the Bush Administration has put a lockdown on the official report, something about ‘executive privilege’ ?

Bush is a criminal.

[Rock Chalk]

I have a few problems with the initial assertion:

"The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away"

OK, my problem comes from the word "appeared" in this statement. Now, I'm no forensic technician or whatever you call them, but there are some flaws with this statement:

How does it "appear" that way? Doctors, those forensic peoples that do this sort of work, know how to determine distance and bullets. There was no "appear" about it. It either was or wasnt from 10 yards away. The type of bullet and gun that was used is one of those things they can determine quite easily.

So, either he was shot at 10 yards away by an M-16 or he wasnt. There is no appear involved. That particular science is quite reliable.

Concerning the grouping of the bullets. It is my understanding, and I may be wrong, that the M-16 has a setting where 3 bullets can be fired per trigger pull. If that is the case, and Im almost certain it is, then it is rather likely that it was merely an accident.

Throwing out the word murder or the allegations of murder with the facts presented is wrong. The family has a right to know the truth, but nothing more. Speculation on whathappened without facts is ****ing bull**** and typical of the media (from any point of view).

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I have a few problems with the initial assertion:
OK, my problem comes from the word "appeared" in this statement. Now, I'm no forensic technician or whatever you call them, but there are some flaws with this statement:
How does it "appear" that way? Doctors, those forensic peoples that do this sort of work, know how to determine distance and bullets. There was no "appear" about it. It either was or wasnt from 10 yards away. The type of bullet and gun that was used is one of those things they can determine quite easily.Correct, you're no forensic technician and TV doesn't count.

So, either he was shot at 10 yards away by an M-16 or he wasnt. There is no appear involved. That particular science is quite reliable.See above.

Concerning the grouping of the bullets. It is my understanding, and I may be wrong, that the M-16 has a setting where 3 bullets can be fired per trigger pull. If that is the case, and Im almost certain it is, then it is rather likely that it was merely an accident.Your understanding is in error. Two settings, fully automatic and semi-automatic.
EDIT: I will give that in automatic mode if you're skilled enough, you can get off 3 rounds with a quick on/off trigger pull. No way either round after the first will follow the same path as the first after any distance at all.
In automatic mode it fires over 13 rounds per second.

Throwing out the word murder or the allegations of murder with the facts presented is wrong. The family has a right to know the truth, but nothing more. Speculation on whathappened without facts is ****ing bull**** and typical of the media (from any point of view).Thankfully, the media pursues these types of coverups and doesn't ignore them.

[TailgateNut]

Three shots to the forehead at close range does not sound like a case of mistaken identity.



Sounds more like "close proximity" (the shooter would be able to identify the target), or a sniper who would usually take only one shot but would also identify the target prior to taking the shot.

In order to put three bullets in a close grouping with an M-16 you'ld have to be either extremely close, or the victim would have to stand absolutely still untill you pull the trigger three times, or you'ld have to have a horseshoe up your ass if your M-16 is in full auto mode.

I qualified as an expert while in the service, and there's no way in hell I could place 3 bullets in someones forehead from a distance before they hit the ground. Sounds "fishy" to me if it is true.

[DenverBrit]

i don't doubt that some mid level PR flack in the Pentagon floated the story early on that he died as a hero before the facts were known. and if he was shot by friendly fire (as it appears he was), then there would be a natural inclination for the Pentagon PR folks to resist retracting the "hero" story quickly.

Translation: They lied.

but to suggest anything more sinister, with absolutely no proof, as this anonymous AP writer does, or to imply that there is some grand conspiracy to cover up the facts of the case (real or imaged), is laughable.


To dismiss all other reports without knowing all the facts, is equally 'laughable.' Hopefully, murder turns out not to be the explanation for Tillman's death.

however, there is that small percentage of people who will always believe in conspiracy theories. the more convoluted and complex, the better for them.

The 'I don't recall' defense and the encouraging of White House staff to be in 'Contempt of Congress' rather than testify, is cause enough to wonder.
It's a favorite tactic of the Neo-Cons to label anyone who questions this administration a 'conspiracy theorist' or 'Liberal', when in fact it just means not everyone is blinded by the BS.


to invade Iraq in order to secretly confiscate their oil, and hand it off to their buddies in Haliburton, all without anyone ever finding out. this would require the IQ of a criminal mastermind that one only finds in James Bond movies. however, when this is the argument the liberal wants to make, then Bush must clearly be the most intelligent man to ever hold that office. so which is it? they can't have it both ways. either he's a dunce (who's earned multiple degrees at schools that 99.9% of the people reading this forum are not qualified to attend), or he's the most brilliant criminal mastermind in history.

Not really. Arrogance and gross incompetence would be a more realistic description.

[BMF Bronco]

Your understanding is in error. Two settings, fully automatic and semi-automatic.


no, you're wrong, the M-16 A-1 semiautomatic rifle has two settings, semi and "Burst" which indeed is a three round burst.

[Garcia Bronco]

A POS who would like to know why there are still inconsistencies with the goverments' second story about his death!

If I were the Tillman family, I would want the truth. THEY DESERVE THE TRUTH.

they do. Everybody else doesn't though

[Garcia Bronco]

No matter how this turns out, it's a tragedy.

The difference is, whether or not people will be able to use his death as fodder for their political ranting or not. That's the thrust I'm seeing, not a true concern for the man's spirit. But, that's politics as usual... ugly, short-sighted and generally pointless.

Amen

[Garcia Bronco]

Don't you think Pat Tillman is owed justice? Doesn't his story deserve to be known by the American people? I don't understand how someone could take a position to squash justice in favor of "letting his spirit rest" when there's a potential for foul play here.

That's based on the assumption that there was foul play, but I don't think there was. So I only see any of this as politics.

[Los Broncos]

Very sad every time i think or read about his death.

I would really like some closure and im sure his family does also.

[Garcia Bronco]

Does "good taste" refer to sweeping the truth under the rug?

Sometimes the truth isn't a good thing.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

no, you're wrong, the M-16 A-1 semiautomatic rifle has two settings, semi and "Burst" which indeed is a three round burst.Well, the selection lever on my rifle (M16A1) was marked Safe, Semi and Auto, but I played Army back in the Vietnam era. A little over 1.5 seconds to discharge a 20 round magazine (we were never allowed to put more than 18 rounds in them) in Auto mode.

[Atlas]

Sounds more like "close proximity" (the shooter would be able to identify the target), or a sniper who would usually take only one shot but would also identify the target prior to taking the shot.

In order to put three bullets in a close grouping with an M-16 you'ld have to be either extremely close, or the victim would have to stand absolutely still untill you pull the trigger three times, or you'ld have to have a horseshoe up your ass if your M-16 is in full auto mode.

I qualified as an expert while in the service, and there's no way in hell I could place 3 bullets in someones forehead from a distance before they hit the ground. Sounds "fishy" to me if it is true.

The medical examiner said the shots would have to had to come from about 10 yards away.

[Atlas]

That's based on the assumption that there was foul play, but I don't think there was. So I only see any of this as politics.

so how does he get shot three times in the head from 10 yards away and it be an accident, or wait at first it was enemy fire, then an accident...or... whatever story they want to use. Too many half truths to believe anything they say.

[LDB]

Well, the selection lever on my rifle (M16A1) was marked Safe, Semi and Auto, but I played Army back in the Vietnam era. A little over 1.5 seconds to discharge a 20 round magazine (we were never allowed to put more than 18 rounds in them) in Auto mode.

The A2s had single fire and 3 round bursts options.

The M4s have single and full auto.

This situation sucks. I have no problem with more investigations. I am getting sick of the constant coverups going on. The truth should be told, however, I feel that people using it as a political tool is pathetic.

[TailgateNut]

Sometimes the truth isn't a good thing.


??? ....when would that be?

[Popps]

Amen

Imagine if the people calling each other idiots and spitting rhetoric at each other on this thread actually went out and did some charity work, or something positive for society....

Instead of calling Bush a war criminal (or defending him)... sent a care package over to some of the soldiers the profess to care about.

or... volunteered at a VA hospital.

or... generally did anything socially worthwhile instead of calling each other names?

Probably a silly idea. As you were.

[TailgateNut]

no, you're wrong, the M-16 A-1 semiautomatic rifle has two settings, semi and "Burst" which indeed is a three round burst.


It appears this option became available after 1994. I stopped playing with Army guns after '84. How 'bout you BB?

[TailgateNut]

Imagine if the people calling each other idiots and spitting rhetoric at each other on this thread actually went out and did some charity work, or something positive for society....

Instead of calling Bush a war criminal (or defending him)... sent a care package over to some of the soldiers the profess to care about.

or... volunteered at a VA hospital.

or... generally did anything socially worthwhile instead of calling each other names?

Probably a silly idea. As you were.


Right now priority one is to rid ourselves of the plague in the WH. The same WH who hid/ lied about this situation!

AT EASE!

[Orange_Beard]

America spent over 30 mill to uncover the fact that Clinton was getting a BJ's from an adult women and not telling the truth about it.......

Why not look into this?

Afterall this is the death of a human being, not a stain on a dress.

[TailgateNut]

America spent over 30 mill to uncover the fact that Clinton was getting a BJ's from an adult women and not telling the truth about it.......

Why not look into this?

Afterall this is the death of a human being, not a stain on a dress.


...maybe because it'll put ANOTHER STAIN on this administration!

[Orange_Beard]

I have a few problems with the initial assertion:


OK, my problem comes from the word "appeared" in this statement. Now, I'm no forensic technician or whatever you call them, but there are some flaws with this statement:

How does it "appear" that way? Doctors, those forensic peoples that do this sort of work, know how to determine distance and bullets. There was no "appear" about it. It either was or wasnt from 10 yards away. The type of bullet and gun that was used is one of those things they can determine quite easily.

So, either he was shot at 10 yards away by an M-16 or he wasnt. There is no appear involved. That particular science is quite reliable.

Concerning the grouping of the bullets. It is my understanding, and I may be wrong, that the M-16 has a setting where 3 bullets can be fired per trigger pull. If that is the case, and Im almost certain it is, then it is rather likely that it was merely an accident.

Throwing out the word murder or the allegations of murder with the facts presented is wrong. The family has a right to know the truth, but nothing more. Speculation on whathappened without facts is ****ing bull**** and typical of the media (from any point of view).

I think you are a little off.
The docs examined the body, they would report there observations, the MP's(Police) would then investigate. Was it investigated? If so by who?

[baja]

No matter how this turns out, it's a tragedy.

The difference is, whether or not people will be able to use his death as fodder for their political ranting or not. That's the thrust I'm seeing, not a true concern for the man's spirit. But, that's politics as usual... ugly, short-sighted and generally pointless.

That is true Popps, the circumstances make this political and that is unfortunate but in this case it is Tilman's mother that want's the truth and has since she lost her son.

[telluride]

Sometimes the truth isn't a good thing.

Garcia Bronco = scary

[Popps]

Right now priority one is to rid ourselves of the plague in the WH.

My point, exactly... and in a couple years, "priority one" will be some other political babble that no one is listening to.

Meanwhile, there are local charities in our neighborhoods that desperately need help.

But, that actually takes effort and concern.

Blabbing on about how you hate Bush or Clinton on the internet doesn't. So, I'll give you three guesses which one people do more often.

Bush represents an excuse for people to sit on their ass and point fingers, just like most presidents before him.

It's easy to spot those who truly care and truly make a difference.... and those who don't.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

My point, exactly... and in a couple years, "priority one" will be some other political babble that no one is listening to.

Meanwhile, there are local charities in our neighborhoods that desperately need help.

But, that actually takes effort and concern.

Blabbing on about how you hate Bush or Clinton on the internet doesn't. So, I'll give you three guesses which one people do more often.

Bush represents an excuse for people to sit on their ass and point fingers, just like most presidents before him.

It's easy to spot those who truly care and truly make a difference.... and those who don't.On a message board? OK, but I'd say you be guessing at best. I have a feeling a lot of people are/can be vocal about things that aren't right and be contributing members to society at the same time.

[baja]

Well Popps I am guilty as charged. I would like to do something about it so i am seriously considering working for the Ron Paul campaign.

I think your points are well taken.

[Garcia Bronco]

??? ....when would that be?

When it does more harm than good

[Garcia Bronco]

so how does he get shot three times in the head from 10 yards away and it be an accident, or wait at first it was enemy fire, then an accident...or... whatever story they want to use. Too many half truths to believe anything they say.

That's even assuming this report is true. They can't even tell you what doctor said this.

[Garcia Bronco]

Imagine if the people calling each other idiots and spitting rhetoric at each other on this thread actually went out and did some charity work, or something positive for society....

Instead of calling Bush a war criminal (or defending him)... sent a care package over to some of the soldiers the profess to care about.

or... volunteered at a VA hospital.

or... generally did anything socially worthwhile instead of calling each other names?

Probably a silly idea. As you were.

Again...AMEN

[Taco John]

That's even assuming this report is true. They can't even tell you what doctor said this.



Yes, but what we already that whatever happened, they tried to cover it up. They lied to his parents (http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/11292). They burned his uniform (http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/local/48990.php). They destroyed his journal. They ordered a soldier not to tell the family the truth about his death (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/24/tillman.hearing/index.html).

It blows my mind that people see all of this abuse right in front of them, and are more interested in protecting the government than obtaining justice for the family of a fallen hero.

[bombay]

It sucks that he may have been fragged, and the coverup makes it worse.

[TexanBob]

The question really should be, what kind of a person advocates censorship?

I dunno. Let's ask Tipper Gore.

[Atlas]

I dunno. Let's ask Tipper Gore.

Wasn't Tipper about proper labeling on CDs so you would know it has adult content... That is hardly censorship. Besides it only made sales for those albums go up anyway...Hilarious!

Wal Mart does more to censor than Tipper could ever dream.

[orange 4 life]

That makes me sick.

I really hope it is not true.

me too, but sadly its the most plausible scenario ive read yet.

the question then is "why?"

i would think it would need to be more than "dislike" or "jealousy" for him to be killed.
were they ORDERED to kill him?
great, now im thinking conspiracy theories. silly stuff usually, but im in one of those dark moods anyway.

i dont know folks. all i know is something shady happened that day.

[Broncos_OTM]

this is getting out of hand. Tillman died tragically, why wont the media just let it alone. Regardless of how it happened, its over, and the constant media attention and news is unfair to his family imo.No sir what is unfair is that it might have been intentional that he was killed. it would do his family and the united states army and the government a extreme diservice if they do not try and find the proof. im sorry but ten yards and evidence to the contrary is a reason for a case.

[DenverBrit]

My point, exactly... and in a couple years, "priority one" will be some other political babble that no one is listening to.

Meanwhile, there are local charities in our neighborhoods that desperately need help.

But, that actually takes effort and concern.

Blabbing on about how you hate Bush or Clinton on the internet doesn't. So, I'll give you three guesses which one people do more often.

Bush represents an excuse for people to sit on their ass and point fingers, just like most presidents before him.

It's easy to spot those who truly care and truly make a difference.... and those who don't.

I'm not sure that voicing an opinion about the current state of affairs and how or why we got here, excludes one from aiding our communities.
Some of the most outspoken people I know are also the most dedicated in their service to the charities they either support or work for full time.
Part of the problem all along has been the deafening silence of the politicians and media during the last four years.
Far from keeping quite, the country would be better served by more voices raised when those who represent us all, appear to be incompetent and put lives and freedom at risk.
This is a great Democracy and needs to be defended, not just by the military, but by its citizens.
Silence is not golden, nor is it a sign that those who keep quiet are doing good works elsewhere.
Nor is being vocal a sign that we do nothing.

[Spider]

ROFL! Who is John Gault is a freaking retard ........ and a few others here also . so let me get this right , some here are saying let the Murders go ( if he was murdered ) no need to investigate , no one needs to know the truth ...... ROFL! To you bastards that take this stance , your daddy ruined perfect pricks when he put ears on your heads ....... Just plain ****ing stupid

[footstepsfrom#27]

do you really believe there is some secret smokey room where the highest elected official and the joint chiefs of staff all sit around plotting to "cover-up" the details of friendly fire incidents that happen half a world away during the fog of war?

Yeah, that's just absurd.

http://lshs.leesummit.k12.mo.us/studentprojects/0506/fall05/Nixon/images/Nixon%20Pose.jpg

this is the single worst thing that the liberal stranglehold on public education has done... it has stopped giving children important tools they will need as adults, such as critical thinking skills. that AP article doesn't pass the sniff test. even on the first read, anyone with a brain can tell it's BS.
Then I guess that explains this huh?
-- Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

It never ceases to amaze me that people comment on stuff in here they clearly never even read.

[Atlas]

me too, but sadly its the most plausible scenario ive read yet.

the question then is "why?"

i would think it would need to be more than "dislike" or "jealousy" for him to be killed.
were they ORDERED to kill him?
great, now im thinking conspiracy theories. silly stuff usually, but im in one of those dark moods anyway.

i dont know folks. all i know is something shady happened that day.

It's strange, if he was just killed because someone didn't like him, someone else would have talked, and why would it have been covered up? Now if tyhe whole unit disliked him maybe there was a conspiracy to kill him and then the cover up by higher ups.. It's all very strange. This needs to be investgated to the fullest and all guilty members need to be brought to justice and face the Tillman family.

[maher_tyler]

actually it sound more like blue on blue fire to me then murder. They were in rugged terrian, under fire and head suddenly pops up from cover right next to a ranger and he reacts and fires a burst (M16 fire 3 bullets in semi-automatic mode).

Thats another thing i was thinking that his M-16 was most likely on burst...i mean if the guy had to pull the trigger 3 times then either he's extremely dumb or it was intentional. If the article is correct they weren't under enemy fire!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Imagine if the people calling each other idiots and spitting rhetoric at each other on this thread actually went out and did some charity work, or something positive for society....

Instead of calling Bush a war criminal (or defending him)... sent a care package over to some of the soldiers the profess to care about.

or... volunteered at a VA hospital.

or... generally did anything socially worthwhile instead of calling each other names?

Probably a silly idea. As you were.

We definitely need people to become active in their communities. There are not enough volunteers.

[maher_tyler]

Your understanding is in error. Two settings, fully automatic and semi-automatic.
EDIT: I will give that in automatic mode if you're skilled enough, you can get off 3 rounds with a quick on/off trigger pull. No way either round after the first will follow the same path as the first after any distance at all.
In automatic mode it fires over 13 rounds per second.

There are 3 settings- Safe, Semi and Burst...i'm in the AF and have shot the M-16 as recently as April this year.

[maher_tyler]

Would anyone here honesly be surprized if he in fact was murdered and the gov't was/is covering it up?? Why wouldn't they try to cover it up, were not just talkin about some guy, they wouldn't want anyone to know that someone shot there own guy on purpose, it'd make the whole army look really bad!! How do accidentally shoot someone in the head from 10 yards away!! You don't!! I wouldn't be surprized if in fact he was murdered, i hope it's not the case but justice needs to be served so he can RIP and his family can move on!!

[Gort]

It never ceases to amaze me that people comment on stuff in here they clearly never even read.

let me see if i understand... it was printed in an anonymous AP article posted on the web, without any attribution whatsoever, so therefore it must be true?

you're clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed.

[maher_tyler]

let me see if i understand... it was printed in an anonymous AP article posted on the web, without any attribution whatsoever, so therefore it must be true?

you're clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Are you willing to accept that MAYBE he was murdered?? It's not like this would be the first time the gov't has tried covering something up!! I don't recall anyone saying that in fact the article is 100% true, right now it's just theories and speculation. When the gov't constantly lies about **** it's hard not to wonder what really happened, when they've once already lied about how he was first killed!! How can you not sit there and wonder??!!

[Moon§hiner]

Would anyone here honesly be surprized if he in fact was murdered and the gov't was/is covering it up?? Why wouldn't they try to cover it up, were not just talkin about some guy, they wouldn't want anyone to know that someone shot there own guy on purpose, it'd make the whole army look really bad!! How do accidentally shoot someone in the head from 10 yards away!! You don't!! I wouldn't be surprized if in fact he was murdered, i hope it's not the case but justice needs to be served so he can RIP and his family can move on!!I'd be surprised if he was murdered...I believe it was friendly fire, commanding officer went "oh crap"...his commanding officer went "oh ****, now what do we do about our "hero" " His family wants an answer and I believe they have a snowballs chance in hell of getting the true one. Do I think it was a murder conspiracy?.. no....hate to say it but I think the final verdict points to politically driven....bad publicity, enlistings go down.

[Jason7730]

I would have to go along with that theory also, moonshine.

[Atlas]

I'd be surprised if he was murdered...I believe it was friendly fire, commanding officer went "oh crap"...his commanding officer went "oh ****, now what do we do about our "hero" " His family wants an answer and I believe they have a snowballs chance in hell of getting the true one. Do I think it was a murder conspiracy?.. no....hate to say it but I think the final verdict points to politically driven....bad publicity, enlistings go down.


You don't "accidently" shoot someone in the head three times from 10 yards away with all the bullets in an inch radius. If the gun was on auto the spread of the bullets is too great. The only way this could happen IMO is that the bullets were fired one by one pulling the triger three times.

[BroncsRule]

You don't "accidently" shoot someone in the head three times from 10 yards away with all the bullets in an inch radius. If the gun was on auto the spread of the bullets is too great. The only way this could happen IMO is that the bullets were fired one by one pulling the triger three times.

There's been a lot of misinformation in this thread around the balistics/mechanics of the M-16.

- The M-16 A2 HBAR (Heavy Barrel) first went into service in the mid 1980's. Different units got their A-1's repalced at different times - it is quite possible that there are still a few A-1's in service to this day in backwater national guard units(although I doubt it).

The M-4 (shorty) was also in limited distribution by 2002, but IMO most front line units - including Ranger battalions, would have fielded A-2's exclusively.

The A-2 selector switch has 3 settings - Safe, Semi Auto and Burst.

When set to Burst, the weapon will discharge 3 rounds in +/- 1/4 second. This means that the 3rd round is leaving the barrel before "significant" muzzle rise has occured. The heavy barrel helps dampen the recoil significantly. At extremely close ranges, say 10 FEET or so, you will see a fairly tight grouping. This effect does not rely in any way upon the skill of the shooter, but rather simple physics.

By 10 YARDS, the grouping would naturaly tend to spread out more, unless the shooter was extrodinarily skilled.

And trying.

BTW - I was in from '86 - '91. I was an NCO and served as a Range Safety Officer (assisted in the conduct of small arms qualification ranges for my battalion) from '89 to '91.

[Rohirrim]

Simple. If the Army had nothing to hide, why did they burn all the evidence? Major smell test failure.

[maher_tyler]

I'd be surprised if he was murdered...I believe it was friendly fire, commanding officer went "oh crap"...his commanding officer went "oh ****, now what do we do about our "hero" " His family wants an answer and I believe they have a snowballs chance in hell of getting the true one. Do I think it was a murder conspiracy?.. no....hate to say it but I think the final verdict points to politically driven....bad publicity, enlistings go down.

Anyone who is quilified to shoot a gun in the military knows to keep your finger off the trigger when there not underfire and according to the article they were not..if it was an accident and the RANGER for some reason had his finger on the trigger and accidentally pulled then maybe they need to look at getting them more training on safety while carrying a loaded weopon. Also you can have your weapon off safe but your not suppose to have a round in the chamber..at least thats how it is in the Air Force!!

[Rohirrim]

Rangers do not lose their cool under fire. They do not accidently shoot anybody.

[Dedhed]

Sometimes the truth isn't a good thing.
Like when it reflects poorly on those you support?

[Dedhed]

Imagine if the people calling each other idiots and spitting rhetoric at each other on this thread actually went out and did some charity work, or something positive for society....

Instead of calling Bush a war criminal (or defending him)... sent a care package over to some of the soldiers the profess to care about.

or... volunteered at a VA hospital.

or... generally did anything socially worthwhile instead of calling each other names?

Probably a silly idea. As you were.
Is it too much for you to imagine that people lack the ability to both call out the administration, and contribute to the greater good through volunteer efforts, donations, etc? I know more than a few people with the multi-tasking skills to accomplish such a feat.

[maher_tyler]

Rangers do not lose their cool under fire. They do not accidently shoot anybody.

My thinking exactly.

[elsid13]

Rangers do not lose their cool under fire. They do not accidently shoot anybody.

Dude everyone lose thier cool under fire. It just how some folks handle the stress. You would be surprised about the number of dumb things 18 to 23 year do in training, much less in field.

[footstepsfrom#27]

let me see if i understand... it was printed in an anonymous AP article posted on the web, without any attribution whatsoever, so therefore it must be true?

you're clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Google returns 66,500 hits for the boolean search terms "army medical examiners" AND tillman...and Forbes produced the same article complete with the author's byline...written by Martha Mendoza of the Associated Press. Here it is: http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/26/ap3958728.html

AP wire service stories frequently run without byline credits BTW...since you didn't know that.

When dealing with a Mensa candidate like you, one needn't be a surgeons scalpel...a dull butter knife will do the trick every time.

[TailgateNut]

Like when it reflects poorly on those you support?


Ding, Ding, Ding!

[Spider]

Google returns 66,500 hits for the boolean search terms "army medical examiners" AND tillman...and Forbes produced the same article complete with the author's byline...written by Martha Mendoza of the Associated Press. Here it is: http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/26/ap3958728.html

AP wire service stories frequently run without byline credits BTW...since you didn't know that.

When dealing with a Mensa candidate like you, one needn't be a surgeons scalpel...a dull butter knife will do the trick every time.

LOL nuttin worse then a texican with a edumacation ;D
but good job

[DenverBrit]

Rangers do not lose their cool under fire. They do not accidently shoot anybody.

It happens.

The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

However, that part of the story seems to contradict the following:

No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene - no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.


This story gets stranger the more one looks at it.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/26/ap3958728.html

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Y.
There are 3 settings- Safe, Semi and Burst...i'm in the AF and have shot the M-16 as recently as April this year.Apparently, there are different versions of the rifle out there now. This is what we were issued in the infantry and the only version I ever used...





http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6690/coltm16a106zz3.jpg

[orange 4 life]

It's strange, if he was just killed because someone didn't like him, someone else would have talked, and why would it have been covered up? Now if tyhe whole unit disliked him maybe there was a conspiracy to kill him and then the cover up by higher ups.. It's all very strange. This needs to be investgated to the fullest and all guilty members need to be brought to justice and face the Tillman family.

i find it very strange also, and while i dont have any answers, i DO have a possible theory.
tillman was a football player. an aggressive "big hit" kinda player at that.
he leaves it all for the army. YES, thats patriotic, and YES, i thought "WOW, what a sacrifice" like everyone else, but i ALSO see my wifes perspective.
when she found out, she said "sounds like he isnt thinking much about his family. we're not being invaded here, and if he's leaving that money that would support his family for life, maybe the guy just wants to go play GI joe and kill him some bad guys."

was she right? dont blast me here guys, im just wondering.
...and if that IS true and he WAS the kind of guy that wanted as much action as possible, could it ALSO be possible that his fellow soldiers werent too thrilled with his "hoo rah" attitude and "quit sniveling" type comments?
also, was tillman treated differently by his superiors?
did he HIMSELF think he was above everyone else because he was "pat bleeping tillman" as he apparently said himself?

...and if he WAS treated differently, thought of himself as superior, AND threw out comments to his fellow soldiers, is it not plausible that one (or a few) of them would dislike ("hate", "resent", etc.) him enough to kill him?

all just speculation, but more than anything i hope the family gets the closure theyre looking for.
like garcia said earlier, its a tragedy regardless, and the more all this stuff comes to light the worse it seems to get IMO.
yeah, everyone wants the truth (and the family is entitled to it), but its starting to look like the truth might not be an easy thing to swallow.

[Garcia Bronco]

Like when it reflects poorly on those you support?

I support our country. This has little to do with the three branches of government, silly.

[Garcia Bronco]

Yes, but what we already that whatever happened, they tried to cover it up. They lied to his parents (http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/11292). They burned his uniform (http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/ss/local/48990.php). They destroyed his journal. They ordered a soldier not to tell the family the truth about his death (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/24/tillman.hearing/index.html).

It blows my mind that people see all of this abuse right in front of them, and are more interested in protecting the government than obtaining justice for the family of a fallen hero.

The country is more important than him, you, your family, me, my family, or his family. It's about defending something greater than one's self. Tillman understood that. That's why he went there.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Simple. If the Army had nothing to hide, why did they burn all the evidence? Major smell test failure.
Bingo...you don't need to know an M-16 from a squirt gun to know that when an Army general is emailing Army attorneys and congradulating them on hiding facts from the public that something stinks.

[baja]

Bingo...you don't need to know an M-16 from a squirt gun to know that when an Army general is emailing Army attorneys and congradulating them on hiding facts from the public that something stinks.

I say give some help to that general with the bad memory, shot him up with some of that CIA truth serum

[maher_tyler]

i find it very strange also, and while i dont have any answers, i DO have a possible theory.
tillman was a football player. an aggressive "big hit" kinda player at that.
he leaves it all for the army. YES, thats patriotic, and YES, i thought "WOW, what a sacrifice" like everyone else, but i ALSO see my wifes perspective.
when she found out, she said "sounds like he isnt thinking much about his family. we're not being invaded here, and if he's leaving that money that would support his family for life, maybe the guy just wants to go play GI joe and kill him some bad guys."

was she right? dont blast me here guys, im just wondering.
...and if that IS true and he WAS the kind of guy that wanted as much action as possible, could it ALSO be possible that his fellow soldiers werent too thrilled with his "hoo rah" attitude and "quit sniveling" type comments?
also, was tillman treated differently by his superiors?
did he HIMSELF think he was above everyone else because he was "pat bleeping tillman" as he apparently said himself?

...and if he WAS treated differently, thought of himself as superior, AND threw out comments to his fellow soldiers, is it not plausible that one (or a few) of them would dislike ("hate", "resent", etc.) him enough to kill him?

all just speculation, but more than anything i hope the family gets the closure theyre looking for.
like garcia said earlier, its a tragedy regardless, and the more all this stuff comes to light the worse it seems to get IMO.
yeah, everyone wants the truth (and the family is entitled to it), but its starting to look like the truth might not be an easy thing to swallow.

i could see that happening.

[TailgateNut]

I support our country. This has little to do with the three branches of government, silly.


On the contrary, it does have to do with at least on of the branches. The one with the diseased "leaves".
But to you it's just an inconvienient issue which once again implies that that particular branch will twist anything to fit their goddamn agenda.

[Gort]

sorry to burst your leftwing bubbles, but...

"There is no way that was the case [that the Rangers were that close]," O'Neal said. "You'd be able to make out their face. You'd know exactly who was shooting. Yeah, there is no possible way they were just 10 yards away."

Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

O'Neal, who was recently promoted to sergeant from specialist, told ESPN.com that he agreed with that assessment of the unit's affection for Tillman.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2951521

the original AP article was written by a leftwing propagandist who cherry-picked misleading statements from 2300 pages of released testimony, in order to lead any gullible readers to her desired conclusion. this is a common tactic by leftists and is employed routinely to fan the flames of Bush hatred smoldering in the hearts of so many moveon.org and dailykos types.

[DenverBrit]

sorry to burst your leftwing bubbles, but...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2951521

the original AP article was written by a leftwing propagandist who cherry-picked misleading statements from 2300 pages of released testimony, in order to lead any gullible readers to her desired conclusion. this is a common tactic by leftists and is employed routinely to fan the flames of Bush hatred smoldering in the hearts of so many moveon.org and dailykos types.

Your constant 'left wing' baiting merely shows what an ignorant ass you are.
Critics of this administration are the vast majority in this country, left and right.

Looks like you 'cherry picked' statements to bolster your arguments.
Why not quote the very piece that goes to the heart of O'Neal's testimony?

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him,
`Would you shut your [expletive] mouth? God's not going to help you;
you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

O'Neal told ESPN.com his words did not match the chaplain's recollection. "The way he put it is wrong.
I wouldn't say it is entirely inaccurate," he said.

"I just remember a point where I realized what was going on so I said a quick prayer -- help us get through this.
And Pat was like, 'Hey, praying is not really going to help you right now.' So he kind of got me back to what was going on,
so I was a little more situationally aware," O'Neal said.

Is this a man backtracking on his own, less than flattering, testimony immediately after the incident?
Or is the Chaplain lying about what O'Neal said the during the debriefing?

[Gort]

Your constant 'left wing' baiting merely shows what an ignorant ass you are.
Critics of this administration are the vast majority in this country, left and right.

you sir, are the ignorant ass. neither logic nor facts are able to penetrate your bigotry. just because you live in an echo chamber where every other person you speak to is as ignorant an ass as you, does not mean that the majority of the people in this country also share your views and are also critics of the current administration. that sir, would require 150+ million people. show me any proof whatsoever that 150+ million people in this country are critics of this administration and i'll concede the point. until then, keep the thread on topic, namely the debunking of your leftwing fantasy that a) US soldiers routinely kill one anther for the fun of it, and b) that the current administration would or could willingly lie about and coverup the facts of the death of this soldier. you believe both to be true. i know both to be false.

oh, and the queen sucks balls.

[DenverBrit]

show me any proof whatsoever that 150+ million people in this country are critics of this administration and i'll concede the point.

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

This is too easy.
Concede away. Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

[Gort]

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

This is too easy.
Concede away. Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

wow! you really are dumb. look at the methodology of these sorts of silly polls... any of them... and then explain how that extrapolates to 300 million people, most of whom don't even vote or follow politics. and then, learn a little bit about how these silly political polls are conducted and questions are worded and samples are seeded and get back to me.

"How is that possible? I don’t know anyone who voted for Nixon." - uber-liberal Pauline Kael who was so insulated from contact with real people, upon hearing of Nixon's landslide re-election in 1972

[Gort]

anyway, i've made my point, which was to not let this silly AP article go unchallenged. you lefties can believe what you want. and be as angry and hateful as you want. in the end, you'll be the one dying of a aneurism at age 45, not me. i've never been one who enjoyed getting into internet pissing matches (although i don't mind tossing the occassional insult back when one is tossed at me). to be honest, i don't need the attention and don't need the validation that some believe comes from bickering online. i'd only like to see this forum get back to discussions about the Broncos, which is the only reason i come here. now that training camp has started, i hope all this political bull**** can be moved to those sub forums that i don't frequent.

oh, and i predict 11 wins for the Broncos this year. i'm just saying... ;)

[DenverBrit]

wow! you really are dumb. look at the methodology of these sorts of silly polls... any of them... and then explain how that extrapolates to 300 million people, most of whom don't even vote or follow politics. and then, learn a little bit about how these silly political polls are conducted and questions are worded and samples are seeded and get back to me.


Amazing.

[gunns]

sorry to burst your leftwing bubbles, but...





http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2951521

the original AP article was written by a leftwing propagandist who cherry-picked misleading statements from 2300 pages of released testimony, in order to lead any gullible readers to her desired conclusion. this is a common tactic by leftists and is employed routinely to fan the flames of Bush hatred smoldering in the hearts of so many moveon.org and dailykos types.

LOL as if there is any need for anything to fan the flames of Bush hatred. It's a f****** bonfire.

[footstepsfrom#27]

the original AP article was written by a leftwing propagandist who cherry-picked misleading statements from 2300 pages of released testimony, in order to lead any gullible readers to her desired conclusion. this is a common tactic by leftists and is employed routinely to fan the flames of Bush hatred smoldering in the hearts of so many moveon.org and dailykos types.
So I take it you've actually SEEN the 2300 page document in question...right? How else would you know that the statements in the story were selectively removed from context...ie; "cherry picked"? Please post the link to said document so we can see for ourselves.

1) An army general has been demoted
2) The army doctors have stated the medical evidence suggests close range fire killed Tillman.
3) Army attorneys sent emails congradulating each other for deception.
4) There is a 2300 page document on this investigation.
5) Tillman's mother suspects he was murdered.

How any of this can be even remotely tied to "cherry picking" selective information...is a total head scratcher.

A soldier is tragically dead. People want and deserve the truth.

[Cito Pelon]

I figure there's all kinds of stories that the soldiers in that platoon have. That was a platoon operation from what I've heard. The entire operation was Company level, 200 men, but they were spread out too far. So that means 4 platoons of 50 men, but they were spread out too far also. So that is four squads of 12 men in each squad spread out on either side of a valley cross-firing at each other. It was an f-up waiting to happen so early in a war that the CO and the exec surely had no combat experience, nor did the NCO's have any combat experience.

Whatever happened, I don't think anybody will ever know truthfully. The officers that cobbled together a scenario didn't know what actually happened, they were not there, they just cobbled something together, they depended on the survivors that were scared ****less the whole time and made something up to make themselves look like heroes told them.

[elsid13]

Apparently, there are different versions of the rifle out there now. This is what we were issued in the infantry and the only version I ever used...





http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6690/coltm16a106zz3.jpg

You would be surprised how much the military equipment has changed in the last 5 year, even more since the 1st Gulf war. And there whole next generation of equipment just around the corner that cause more changes.

[Rohirrim]

anyway, i've made my point, which was to not let this silly AP article go unchallenged. you lefties can believe what you want. and be as angry and hateful as you want. in the end, you'll be the one dying of a aneurism at age 45, not me. i've never been one who enjoyed getting into internet pissing matches (although i don't mind tossing the occassional insult back when one is tossed at me). to be honest, i don't need the attention and don't need the validation that some believe comes from bickering online. i'd only like to see this forum get back to discussions about the Broncos, which is the only reason i come here. now that training camp has started, i hope all this political bull**** can be moved to those sub forums that i don't frequent.

oh, and i predict 11 wins for the Broncos this year. i'm just saying... ;)


I nominate this moron as the Bushbot of the Year. Every post he writes details how he is able to ignore any information he doesn't agree with and then he tops it off by saying he can't wait until it moves off the main forum so he can ignore politics completely. This kind of concerted effort to remain deluded should not go unrewarded. Judging by Gonzales, Meier, Scooter, and the rest of the Bush cabal, this kind of practiced ignorance is a job requirement. It reminds me of when Bush proudly stated, "I don't read any of the papers."

[Tombstone RJ]

Rangers do not lose their cool under fire. They do not accidently shoot anybody.

What I find incredibly interesting about the article is that Tillman was reported as saying, just before he was shot, something like "stop sniveling." I assume he was talking to a fellow comrade. If so, that tells me something right there:

Maybe, just maybe he wasn't liked by his comrades. Also, it appears, from this article, that he was sniped by someone with bad intentions. Three bullet holes to the forehead, IMHO, means one trigger pull from an M16 variant.

All of this is MHO: Tillman had brass balls. He didn't like the way things were being done, or NOT being done where he was serving. He took initiative, perhaps too many times. It got him in trouble.

Was he killed on purpose? Well, again, IMHO, Rangers and all those dudes over there are too damned good at what they do to snipe someone they know is a friendly. Something stinks here, and the Army is covering it up, again, JMHO.

[Atlas]

I nominate this moron as the Bushbot of the Year. Every post he writes details how he is able to ignore any information he doesn't agree with and then he tops it off by saying he can't wait until it moves off the main forum so he can ignore politics completely. This kind of concerted effort to remain deluded should not go unrewarded. Judging by Gonzales, Meier, Scooter, and the rest of the Bush cabal, this kind of practiced ignorance is a job requirement. It reminds me of when Bush proudly stated, "I don't read any of the papers."

Well he did predict Denver would win 11 games this year!

[Atlas]

What I find incredibly interesting about the article is that Tillman was reported as saying, just before he was shot, something like "stop sniveling." I assume he was talking to a fellow comrade. If so, that tells me something right there:

Maybe, just maybe he wasn't liked by his comrades. Also, it appears, from this article, that he was sniped by someone with bad intentions. Three bullet holes to the forehead, IMHO, means one trigger pull from an M16 variant.

All of this is MHO: Tillman had brass balls. He didn't like the way things were being done, or NOT being done where he was serving. He took initiative, perhaps too many times. It got him in trouble.

Was he killed on purpose? Well, again, IMHO, Rangers and all those dudes over there are too damned good at what they do to snipe someone they know is a friendly. Something stinks here, and the Army is covering it up, again, JMHO.

great post, well said.

[Florida_Bronco]

Rangers do not lose their cool under fire. They do not accidently shoot anybody.

That's simply not true. Most Rangers are in their early to mid 20s, they are not elite units like Delta Force and the Navy SEALS. Rangers opening fire on friendly units can and does happen. In Somalia back in 1993, the Rangers about killed 3 of the Delta Force guys when they saw them inside a window and decided to let loose on them before confirming who it was that they saw.

[Spider]

That's simply not true. Most Rangers are in their early to mid 20s, they are not elite units like Delta Force and the Navy SEALS. Rangers opening fire on friendly units can and does happen. In Somalia back in 1993, the Rangers about killed 3 of the Delta Force guys when they saw them inside a window and decided to let loose on them before confirming who it was that they saw.

was that the Movie where Chuck Norris swam the Atlantic ocean , came on shore killed all the bad guys then took a break for a cup of coffee ?

[TailgateNut]

was that the Movie where Chuck Norris swam the Atlantic ocean , came on shore killed all the bad guys then took a break for a cup of coffee ?

Hilarious!

[Florida_Bronco]

was that the Movie where Chuck Norris swam the Atlantic ocean , came on shore killed all the bad guys then took a break for a cup of coffee ?

:spit: Good one Spider.

[Cito Pelon]

What I find incredibly interesting about the article is that Tillman was reported as saying, just before he was shot, something like "stop sniveling." I assume he was talking to a fellow comrade. If so, that tells me something right there:

Maybe, just maybe he wasn't liked by his comrades. Also, it appears, from this article, that he was sniped by someone with bad intentions. Three bullet holes to the forehead, IMHO, means one trigger pull from an M16 variant.

All of this is MHO: Tillman had brass balls. He didn't like the way things were being done, or NOT being done where he was serving. He took initiative, perhaps too many times. It got him in trouble.

Was he killed on purpose? Well, again, IMHO, Rangers and all those dudes over there are too damned good at what they do to snipe someone they know is a friendly. Something stinks here, and the Army is covering it up, again, JMHO.

Man, there's so much conjecture here and in my own mind about what could have happened. From what I've heard, there was only a few comrades near Tillman when he met his death, so the details of the incident is dependent on them. And apparently, at least one of them had lost his cool, or maybe Tillman lost his cool and they were barking at each other.

I don't know if the real truth will ever come out. I believe Atlas said there's been so many half-truths stated so far, how can you believe anybody that says they're finally telling the real truth? There's probably soldiers that were on the ground that day that really believe they're telling the truth, but their own minds are fabricating something in order to preserve their own sanity, or in order to project themselves as heroes or whatever.

There isn't enough information released to decide what really happened. I've only heard bits and pieces, and has their been the same story told by three soldiers? Sounds like the trouble is there was not a decent investigation, there was not detective work done like the family wants, there was not a grilling of each soldier individually to see how their stories fit or do not fit. That should have been done within hours of the incident if the real story was needed to be pieced together.

But that's not how the Army works in Afghanistan, I guess. There's a civilian investigative arm in the Armed Forces, the CID, but they're based in Kabul I'm sure, they don't move around in the units. There's probably six CID guys for all of Afghanistan, and unless they went to the scene and did the detective work and grilled these kids on the scene when their memories were fresh I don't think the real story will ever come out.

[bombay]

Who is john galt, anyway? Is that the Atlas Shrugged guy?

[Rohirrim]

I don't think the real story will ever come out because the Army burned up all the evidence.

[Tombstone RJ]

Man, there's so much conjecture here and in my own mind about what could have happened. From what I've heard, there was only a few comrades near Tillman when he met his death, so the details of the incident is dependent on them. And apparently, at least one of them had lost his cool, or maybe Tillman lost his cool and they were barking at each other.

I don't know if the real truth will ever come out. I believe Atlas said there's been so many half-truths stated so far, how can you believe anybody that says they're finally telling the real truth? There's probably soldiers that were on the ground that day that really believe they're telling the truth, but their own minds are fabricating something in order to preserve their own sanity, or in order to project themselves as heroes or whatever.

There isn't enough information released to decide what really happened. I've only heard bits and pieces, and has their been the same story told by three soldiers? Sounds like the trouble is there was not a decent investigation, there was not detective work done like the family wants, there was not a grilling of each soldier individually to see how their stories fit or do not fit. That should have been done within hours of the incident if the real story was needed to be pieced together.

But that's not how the Army works in Afghanistan, I guess. There's a civilian investigative arm in the Armed Forces, the CID, but they're based in Kabul I'm sure, they don't move around in the units. There's probably six CID guys for all of Afghanistan, and unless they went to the scene and did the detective work and grilled these kids on the scene when their memories were fresh I don't think the real story will ever come out.

You are absolutely spot on.

Fact is, I think the Army brass panicked. They flat out dropped the ball (yes, pun intended for Tillman).

If were gonna guess as to what happened, then we are all intitled to our own opinions. I personally believe Tillman was too John Wayneish for his own good. Whether or not that got him killed intentionally, or completely by accident, I don't know.

It was dark, they were not fighting as a cohesive unit. Tensions were high, fear was involved, in the end, Tillman is dead. The Army panicked because the worst case scenario happened. That is, an American Hero was brought down by his own troops.

The Army brass started covering things up, making things up, hiding things that were uncomfortable for us to know. Perhaps we DON'T want to really know what happened.

Whatever happened, it stinks, and heads should roll.

[Gort]

Amazing.

for example,

http://newsbusters.org/node/3502

polls designed to confirm the pollster's biases are common. on both sides. but the mainstream media is overwhelmingly liberal, so when you quote a liberal poll, you get a liberal pollster's preferred results.

[Gort]

So I take it you've actually SEEN the 2300 page document in question...right? How else would you know that the statements in the story were selectively removed from context...ie; "cherry picked"? Please post the link to said document so we can see for ourselves.

1) An army general has been demoted
2) The army doctors have stated the medical evidence suggests close range fire killed Tillman.
3) Army attorneys sent emails congradulating each other for deception.
4) There is a 2300 page document on this investigation.
5) Tillman's mother suspects he was murdered.

How any of this can be even remotely tied to "cherry picking" selective information...is a total head scratcher.

A soldier is tragically dead. People want and deserve the truth.

of course not, and neither have you. that's the point EXACTLY. 2300 pages of testimony (and how much is simply hearsay!?!?) and the AP writer picks only those sentences that support her agenda. with no context whatsoever. that's the BS i was talking about and that's where critical thinking skills are required. when you read an article like that, you should come away thinking that the writer did a lazy job, and that what she wrote was ultimately untrustworthy. your politics don't favor that conclusion, so you don't want to see the article in the same light. that's too bad for you, because it means that you believe it because you want to believe it. that's no different than religion. belief in the absence of proof. but you should understand that the article is also not the smokling gun you think it is. if you want to believe that Bush and the military killed Tillman on purpose (and make no mistake, that's what the assclowns at dailykos think), then you'll have to find some other "proof" for those of us not pre-disposed to your beliefs, because that AP article doesn't pass the sniff test.

[footstepsfrom#27]

of course not, and neither have you. that's the point EXACTLY. 2300 pages of testimony (and how much is simply hearsay!?!?) and the AP writer picks only those sentences that support her agenda. with no context whatsoever. that's the BS i was talking about and that's where critical thinking skills are required.
First of all, can you please explain what possible "context" could possibly in any way whatsoever, alter the conclusion that one would naturally draw from knowing that the Army has demoted a general who sent congradulatory emails to army attorneys because they conspired to conceal facts with in him in order to keep this quiet? Then you can explain to me what conceivable extenuating circumstances could possibly exist that change in any way how we are to understand that army doctors think the medical evidence suggests he had to be shot at close range. Finally, tell me why you think this AP writer is a flaming leftist. And since you admit that you haven't seen the document, and apparently she HAS...tell me how are you able to determine whether she took things out of context. There are four questions here. Please answer each one if you can.
when you read an article like that, you should come away thinking that the writer did a lazy job, and that what she wrote was ultimately untrustworthy. your politics don't favor that conclusion, so you don't want to see the article in the same light. that's too bad for you, because it means that you believe it because you want to believe it.
You don't know what my politics are so don't pretend you do. The fact is I don't like any of the SOB's on either side. How exactly would you propose that a news reporter do a story on a 2300 page document? You have no idea if she did a lazy job or not. In fact all I see is an attempt to summarize the main thrust of the testimony with the relevant points. I submit it's YOUR politics that are influencing what you believe.
that's no different than religion. belief in the absence of proof. but you should understand that the article is also not the smokling gun you think it is.
How do you know? You haven't see the document...remember?
if you want to believe that Bush and the military killed Tillman on purpose (and make no mistake, that's what the assclowns at dailykos think), then you'll have to find some other "proof" for those of us not pre-disposed to your beliefs, because that AP article doesn't pass the sniff test.
Wake up and smell what you're shoveling dimwit. I didn't say anthing about Bush, and I certainly don't think that if one of Tillman's fellow soldiers shot him that mean that "the military killed Tillman". It most definitely DOES mean that the military has tried to cover this up however and no amount of spin control about "context" in this document can change that. As for Bush...the accusation is making the rounds that he's participated in a coverup as well. Since I haven't read a single line of that, I can't comment on whether he has or not, and nowhere have I even mentioned any of this. What I CAN tell you based on personal knowledge of things neither you nor the general public are aware of, is that Bush has done things like this before...before he became president...as governor of Texas. Bush is as unscrupulous as they come...a total dirt bag.

And BTW...I voted for Reagan twice.

[DenverBrit]

for example,

http://newsbusters.org/node/3502

polls designed to confirm the pollster's biases are common. on both sides. but the mainstream media is overwhelmingly liberal, so when you quote a liberal poll, you get a liberal pollster's preferred results.

I gave you a link to EVERY NATIONWIDE POLL conducted over the last two years....including FOX.
Are you going to suggest FOX is 'Liberal' and anti-Bush??

The question asked and the summary is:

"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?"

ALL adults: Approve... 30% Disapprove.......62% Unsure........8%

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob1.htm

Originally Posted by WhoIsJohnGalt
show me any proof whatsoever that 150+ million people in this country are critics of this administration and i'll concede the point.


Are you going to concede the point or continue to deny the facts?

[Spider]

Denver Brit , footsteps . if i may ..........Just insult John Gault , the ****er is too stupid to reason with , and besides , 90% of the people here know you are right , and insulting him saves you hours of anguish....... ;D
I learned along time ago , you cant fix stupid .........

[DenverBrit]

Denver Brit , footsteps . if i may ..........Just insult John Gault , the ****er is too stupid to reason with , and besides , 90% of the people here know you are right , and insulting him saves you hours of anguish....... ;D
I learned along time ago , you cant fix stupid .........

LOL LOL Of course, you're right.

If only 'stupid' were painful, he'd be responding from Intensive Care

[Spider]

If only 'stupid' were painful, he'd be responding from Intensive Care
ROFL! . I am going to use that

[Atlas]

of course not, and neither have you. that's the point EXACTLY. 2300 pages of testimony (and how much is simply hearsay!?!?) and the AP writer picks only those sentences that support her agenda. with no context whatsoever. that's the BS i was talking about and that's where critical thinking skills are required.

Like when she "cherry picked" the part where the examiner said Tillman was shot three times with a M16 from 10 yards away. And where the examiner recomended that a murder investigation be conducted. You mean that kind of cherry picking?

[baja]

LOL LOL Of course, you're right.

If only 'stupid' were painful, he'd be responding from Intensive Care

You don't suppose that is what happened to Mock.

Concerning Mock it is not good that we have not heard anything for all this time.

[DenverBrit]

You don't suppose that is what happened to Mock.

Concerning Mock it is not good that we have not heard anything for all this time.

I guess no news is good news, but not when someone is in an ICU.
I hope he gets feisty enough to get his butt back behind a keyboard soon.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

show me any proof whatsoever that 150+ million people in this country are critics of this administration and i'll concede the point. Nominated for stupidest post of the year.

[TailgateNut]

Nominated for stupidest post of the year.


I just spent the last two hours talking to a young boy who just returned from that hell hole Bush opened with his ****ing lies. The kid is completely screwed up.

Those of us who know, realize the gravity of the situation. But to be totally honest, it brought tears to my eyes, to see a child who will never be able to rid himself of the memories. The memories of brothers lost, the memories of irreversable actions. The nightmares which Bush never has to deal with when he goes to bed, because he was and is a coward.
A friend of mine who spent time in the jungles of Vietnam tried to console him. A wasted cause, but we are brothers. brothers who served our country. Some of us for a legitimate reason, some of us for a LIE.


I can only hope he will find his peace. Her's to all to kids serving in Iraq tonight. My toughts are with you, and I would gladly take your place, for a night, for a week, for a month.

Be safe, my brothers, be safe!



**** Bush and **** Cheney and **** those of you who support those ball-less bastards! May they rot in HELL!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I just spent the last two hours talking to a you boy who just returned from that hell hole Bush opened with his ****ing lies. The kid is completely screwed up.

Those of us who know, realize the gravity of the situation. But to be totally honest, it brought tears to my eyes, to see a child who will never be able to rid himself of the memories. The memories of brothers lost, the memories of irreversable actions. The nightmares which Bush never has to deal with when he goes to bed, because he was and is a coward.
A friend of mine who spent time in the jungles of Vietnam tried to console him. A wasted cause, but we are brothers. brothers who served our country. Some of us for a legitimate reason, some of us for a LIE.
I can only hope he will find his peace. Her's to all to kids serving in Iraq tonight. My toughts are with you, and I would gladly take your place, for a night, for a week, for a month.
Be safe, my brothers, be safe!
**** Bush and **** Cheney and **** those of you who support those ball-less bastards! May they rot in HELL!I played this game long ago. I'm also a patient at the VA. I see these guys coming in every day, some with a disheartening hopelessness about them.
I see the guys from my era, broken down, crippled, some looking for nothing, some looking for anyone to talk to. We veterans all, no matter the era, are not to blame for any of this.

[TailgateNut]

I played this game long ago. I'm also a patient at the VA. I see these guys coming in every day, some with a disheartening hopelessness about them.
I see the guys from my era, broken down, crippled, some looking for nothing, some looking for anyone to talk to. We veterans all, no matter the era, are not to blame for any of this.



BB, I have kids older than he, and it brought tears to my eyes, to see what we have done. His wife did'nt even know how to react. I just kept telling him, he needs to suroound himself with Vets. We'll take care of him, if the goverment wont!

[baja]

I just do not understand why these two guys are not being impeached.

The only thing that will restore them to any real power is another attack on the US or a false flag reason to invade Iran and what scares me the most is they know that.

[DenverBrit]

One of the other tragedies happening to vets and their families is homelessness.
These young families are being deserted just like the Katrina victims in the South.

Vets on the Street
Hundreds of U.S. soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan are ending up homeless. How could this happen?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17315490/site/newsweek/

[Atlas]

General's rank could be reduced
Retired Gen. Kensinger accused of misleading Tillman investigators

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A retired three-star general criticized for misleading investigators probing the controversial death of Cpl. Pat Tillman could be stripped of a star and face a decrease in retirement pension, Pentagon officials told CNN.


Retired Lt. Gen. Phillip Kensinger's three-star rank could be cut to two stars, according to Army officials.

Retired Lt. Gen. Phillip Kensinger misled investigators when he said he did not know until after Tillman's 2004 memorial service that Tillman's death in Afghanistan was likely the result of "friendly fire," said acting Defense Department Inspector General Thomas Gimble.

"We didn't find that credible. We found evidence that he knew in the April time frame," Gimble said.

Three Pentagon officials have told CNN that Army Secretary Pete Geren may recommend reducing Kensinger's rank to major general.

The reduction in rank would decrease Kensinger's monthly pension by about $1,000 and reduce his current three-star rank to two stars, according to Army officials.

The Pentagon officials, who spoke anonymously to CNN because no final decision has been made, said Geren has consulted Army attorneys about the best way to take the punitive action against Kensinger. Watch more about Gen. Kensinger's role in the Tillman probe »

Should that disciplinary action come to fruition, the sources said it would prove more severe than the separate recommendation of a four-star general who is about to mete out punishment in the case.

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Soldier: I was ordered not to tell truth
The developments come amid calls by the House Oversight Committee on four former White House staff members to talk about when and how the Bush administration knew that Tillman, a former pro football player, was killed by friendly fire.

Last March the acting Pentagon inspector general faulted nine Army officers -- including Kensinger -- for making critical errors in reporting the death of Tillman, who was killed while serving in Afghanistan in 2004.

Next Tuesday, Gen. William Wallace, commander of the U.S. Army Training and Doctrine command, is expected to hand down his decision on punishments.

CNN has learned that all of the officers will receive some kind of reprimand, but none will face criminal charges.


But in addition to a formal reprimand, Kensinger may also get a "Letter of Censure" from Geren, a harsher rebuke that could likely lead to the reduction in rank.

Such a punitive action would have to be approved by Defense Secretary Robert Gates, army officials say.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Why the U.S. government gave Pat Tillman the Silver Star.


For gallantry in action (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_on_re_us/tillman_silver_star_1) against an armed enemy, while serving as a Ranger Rifle team Leader during operation Enduring Freedom on 22 April 2004. Caught between the crossfire of an enemy near ambush, Corporal Tillman put himself in the line of devastating enemy fire as he maneuvered his fire team to a covered position from which they could effectively employ their weapons on known enemy positions. His audacious leadership and courageous example under fire inspired his men to fight at great risk to their own personal safety, resulting in the enemy's withdrawal, his platoon's safe passage from the ambush kill zone, and his mortal wound. Corporal Tillman's personal courage, tactical expertise, and professional competence directly contributed to his platoon's overall success and survival. In making the ultimate sacrifice for his team and platoon, Corporal Patrick D. Tillman reflected great credit upon himself, the Joint Task Force, and the United States Army.

[baja]

Why the U.S. government gave Pat Tillman the Silver Star.

I guess all that bravery was before his guys shot him in the face.