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spdirty
07-22-2007, 01:28 AM
An absolutely amizing article. A ton of it nails my situation down pat.




http://www.freeminds.org/psych/broken.htm

Families Broken Apart by Jehovah's Witnesses: Can They Be Restored?
by Randall Watters

Jim and Cathy were happily married for 14 years. They have three children, Beth (12), Andrew (11) and Toni (9). Jim did not object when Cathy started having "Bible studies" in their home with the Jehovah's Witnesses. He thought they were just another Christian denomination. Three years later, she was divorcing him and seeking custody of the children. Cathy had become a Jehovah's Witness, and was determined that her children would be brought up in what she referred to as the "discipline and mental regulating of Jehovah," but her husband called it mind control.

Across the nation and rapidly increasing in other countries, families are being broken up by one partner's involvement in the Jehovah's Witnesses. In some cases the non-Witness seeks the divorce, in many others the Witness is encouraged to divorce after the non-Witness mate begins to attack her faith and criticizes what the Witness calls "God's organization."

Why does one's husband or wife suddenly decide to become a Jehovah's Witness? Why does their personality change so quickly and ominously? What can the other mate do to hold the marriage together, and to help get their mate out of this religion? Let's examine a few helpful hints.

The Initial Contact
People become Jehovah's Witnesses for a number of reasons. For those who have a legitimate hunger for God, the Witnesses appear to resemble what many think Christianity should be: members do not smoke, they dress modestly, they attend religious services several times a week, they share their faith with others. Furthermore, they shun "worldly" activities and parties (supposedly). They read the Bible and study religious subjects almost daily, they do not go to war, and they talk about a world where there will be no more pain and suffering. For this reason alone the Witnesses are appealing to many.

Others may have not-so-noble reasons for getting involved. Loneliness, resentment towards one's church or family (yes, some get involved out of rebellion to their upbringing!), and even a desire for power and authority over others can be strong factors in one's getting involved. Cults often enable one to be somebody in a world where they have been a "nobody," due to their socio-economic status, their personality weaknesses or their lack of opportunity.

Housewives often invite the Witnesses in because they may be lonely, they crave spiritual things and/or have been spiritually unfulfilled. Perhaps they no longer feel loved by their husbands and they need something to help them cope with life. In many cases, the sudden conversion of a family member or friend may be all it takes to start a person on the "road to paradise," a road that may very well destroy their lives and the lives of their family and relatives over the next few years.

The Family Reacts
"What could be the harm in studying the Bible?" asks the housewife, as her husband is beginning to lose his temper. Cathy had been away from church for years, angry over the hypocrisy she noticed in her last church that she had attended for five years. Since she had been away from Christianity, she found it hard to cope with raising three children and with a husband that worked 60 hours a week to feed them. The Witness ladies who came by were so pleasant, so interested in her welfare! She could always back out if she didn't like it, and they said there was no obligation. Soon Jim didn't see it that way, however, and he was determined (by forceful persuasion) to stop Cathy from even talking to the Witnesses. "They'll brainwash you!" Jim roared. Cathy laughed nervously, afraid of saying too much. She didn't want to tell him that she was even going to meetings every other week, and would be going door-to-door soon! Jim would go through the roof if he knew. She had better be cool.

Jim's reaction was typical. Many people have heard that Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult, but they cannot seem to tell others why. All have heard stories of Jehovah's Witnesses' stand on blood transfusions, not voting or defending their country, and their believing in the end of the world any day, even predicting the year for Armageddon a few times. Though the person who starts studying with the JWs usually cannot appreciate it, this is the most natural reaction of family members to one's involvement with a cult. Being taught that this is the first sign of "persecution for Jehovah's sake," however, the Witness does not seem to grasp the obvious, and begins to either withdraw or to lash out against their mate.

Few of the mates of the one who begins involvement with the Witnesses will handle the situation with tact and care. Not knowing the methods of mind control cults and how to circumvent them, they react with strong emotions, often alienating their mate at the most critical time. Only later (out of desperation) do they talk to an expert in mind control methods. That's why the need for education in this field is critical.

Why Some Divorce
"I'm getting a divorce!" said Cathy as she stormed out of the house, on her way to pick up the kids from school. Jim refused to let her take the kids to the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, saying that he "would rather they become atheists!" than to become Jehovah's Witnesses. Jim was over-reacting; he was brought up in a Methodist Church, and really did believe in the God of the Bible. He was getting increasingly frustrated, though. The local minister had been no help, and Jim was getting angry with God for allowing this "cult" to split up his family after several years of what he considered a happy marriage. He felt like blowing up the Kingdom Hall! (which, by the way, has happened before).

The local elders in the Kingdom Hall sympathized with Cathy. They had faced this before on numerous occasions. Many husbands, upon finding out about their wives studying with the Witnesses, become infuriated. The elders knew just what to say to Cathy (he is persecuting you for Jehovah's sake; he doesn't love the truth), as well as how to keep her from being swayed by others (you should be at all the meetings and go door-to-door; don't listen to the enemy when he puts doubts in your mind!). Other housewives who had lost their husbands years before were available at the Hall to console Cathy and to encourage her to "put Jehovah above all else."

Yes, Cathy did have doubts. All persons studying with the Witnesses start out with doubts. What if it IS a cult? Is it worth it to lose my family? For my children to lose their father? Does God really want me to join this organization? What if they are well-meaning but deceived? For Cathy, the pressure from both sides had become tremendous: common sense on one hand telling her something was wrong, but the fear of God destroying her at Armageddon on the other hand prevented her from entertaining nagging doubts. Sooner or later she had to resolve the "dissonance" in her soul. She had to make a choice, and she apparently just did. She was leaving Jim and taking the kids with her, even if it killed her. She was tired of his unreasonable nature and his anger that drove her to tears. Besides, how could she serve Jehovah married to an unbeliever? Even the elders in the Kingdom Hall understood, and said they would be willing to keep the kids when necessary. Jim could do whatever he wanted, but their blood would not be on her hands at Armageddon!

Child Custody
Many Witness kids do not remain Witnesses by the time they reach their late teens. Growing up in the Watchtower has been likened by some to "growing up in a small Western town, miles from nowhere, with nothing to do. All you see is sagebrush and cactus, and anything fun to do is always bad." Many of these kids manage to escape, but not always to a more wholesome environment! Plagued by guilt and the fear of dying at Armageddon, they stumble through life like lost children until someone is able to help them understand what it means to be a victim of a mind control cult. If they do find such a person, they are indeed lucky! It is not likely they will find such a person in the average church. They are few and far between.

Knowing this, it seems ironic that many mates seeking divorce would want to raise their children as Witnesses! But, alas, they have not heard such stories. They hear only good things in the Kingdom Hall. "Apostates," those who leave the Watchtower for any reason, are off limits!

Due to the increase of child custody cases in recent years, the Watchtower has prepared a booklet, Preparing For Child Custody Cases, that trains their children what to say in such proceedings. The booklet cannot be purchased at the Kingdom Hall, but is only available to those who ask the Society for it who are undergoing such court cases.

"Theocratic tact" (the deceptive way the Witnesses present themselves to outsiders) is used in court to sway the judge. Witness children are presented as models of good behavior, with a wide variety of interests in the arts and school activities, as well as desiring a good education. This is all a lie of course, since Witness children are instructed that competitive sports are bad, seeking any kind of popularity through school or community activities is bad, college is off limits, and hobbies should be kept to a minimum, since the door-to-door sales activities are the most important thing in life! One cannot survive Armageddon or even be counted as a Jehovah's Witness unless one regularly spends time selling Watchtower literature (or as they call it, "placing" literature). Children are to attend all meetings, and have to sit with the adults. They cannot move, chew gum, color pictures, or talk. Even going to the restroom is strongly discouraged! None of this information may reach the judge's ears, however. "Worldly people just do not understand us," the Witness would say in defense of using their "theocratic tact."

Counseling Important
Few of the mates of those getting involved with the Witnesses are willing to lose their marriage over it. Many of those who end up in divorce just didn't know what to do; they felt helpless and hopeless. Though some say every person has a free will and we shouldn't force our view on them, it should be recognized that those getting caught up in the JWs are victims of specific mind control tactics, and do not actually operate under a "free will." If they were able to see the situation a little more objectively and weigh all sides of the issue, they would almost always reject the Watchtower! This seldom occurs, however, due to (1) an inability to get them to think objectively, and (2) the lack of good information about the JWs. While the latter can be dealt with rather easily (see our publications list!), the former requires someone to talk to and/or work with who knows how to open up the minds of those in cults.

A good place to start is in your own church or community. Ask around for those who deal with cults. I don't mean just those who print or distribute information about cults (they are plentiful), but those who have a successful record of dealing with members of cults directly. Ask them how many active members of cults they have rescued. If no one is available locally, a call to a ministry such as this one will be helpful. (Along with this issue we are printing a list of ministries to JWs in the U.S.) If one wants to go all the way, one can hire an exit-counselor who specializes in getting people out of cults.

One should also not neglect seeing a marriage counselor, especially if they have had experience with couples who have religious differences. (Many divorces over "religion" are really not about religion at all. Their relationship simply came to a head, and the religious issue was convenient.) Seek marriage counseling, preferably from a Christian perspective if at all possible. Often a good counselor will help each person to see the other more objectively and with a little more love and understanding.

What to Do, What NOT to Do
Here are a few guidelines to remember:

DON'T call your mate names, don't tell them they are in a cult. Avoid any accusatory language or mannerisms. Control your temper!

DON'T give them a lot of literature to read against the WT unless you really believe they will read it; they will usually perceive it as an attack and "close up."

DON'T threaten them with divorce or taking the kids away, etc. Let them know you love them and stand beside them, not against them.

DON'T say things against the WT you cannot substantiate, or they will not take you seriously.

DO read all you can about cults, mind control methods, and the history of the Watchtower. Being well-informed and comfortable with what you know will be both impressive to your mate and will help you to be secure in what you believe. This makes the Watchtower less threatening to you!

DO adopt a "questioning" attitude, not being overly critical but concerned and interested in what they are learning. Show them you are interested in the truth as well.

DO try and arrange for ex-members of other cults to join in a casual dinner or evening time, letting them share their experiences in a group OTHER than JWs. (The doubts that others had about their own groups will help your mate's own doubts to resurface.)

DO be patient and pray for your mate. Many JWs end up leaving the organization after a number of years. If they are willing to THINK and DISCUSS, there is hope, and even if they seem obstinate now, they may very well change later.

spdirty
07-22-2007, 01:32 AM
more good stuff.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2919/reasons.html

<CENTER>-Compiled by Paul & Pat Blizard (watchthetower@bigfoot.com)
Former Third Generation Jehovah's Witnesses</CENTER>
Of all items listed, only three have been discontinued. (marked with an asterisk) All are listed, however, to show the absurdity of Watchtower authority and the absolute control leadership has over the lives of members once they join. 1. Jehovah God is not a Trinity

2. The doctrine of the Trinity is inspired by Satan

3. Jesus Christ is a created being, who at one time did not exist (a.k.a.Michael the archangel)

4. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is "God's active force" i.e. gravity, electricity etc.

5. Heaven is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses

6. Heaven is limited only to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses

7. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians

8. There is no Hell (It is simply the grave)

9. There is no life after death (except for the 144,000)

10. Salvation is by good works not by Grace

11. You cannot be sure of salvation

12. Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to

13. Jesus did not rise from the dead bodily but as a
spirit being

14. You are discouraged from attending college

15. The "first resurrection" occurred in 1918

16. All pastors are the "Antichrist"

17. All churches are of Satan

18. All governments are controlled by Satan

19. You cannot take a blood transfusion

20. You cannot be a police officer

21. You cannot salute the flag, stand for the national
anthem, or own a flag

22. You cannot serve in the military

23. You cannot buy girl Scout cookies

24. You must attend five meetings per week

25. Jesus'second coming occurred in 1914 (only
known to Jehovah's Witnesses)

26. You cannot marry a non-Jehovah's Witness

27. If one does not follow the rules of the Watchtower
they will be shunned

28. You cannot read Christian literature from a
Christian book store

29. You cannot be a cheerleader

30. You cannot celebrate any holidays (Christmas,
Easter, etc.)

31. You cannot celebrate your birthday

32. You cannot run for or hold a political office

33. You cannot vote in any political campaign

34. You cannot serve on a jury

35. You are discouraged from giving to charity (except Watchtower causes)

36. You cannot speak to former members who are shunned (disfellowshipped)

37. You cannot accept Christmas gifts

38. You must read and study Watchtower literature regularly

39. Only Jehovah's Witnesses can understand the Bible

40. Angels direct the Watchtower organization

41. Jesus did not die on a cross but an upright pole

42. You cannot own or wear a cross

43. You must report your witnessing activity to the elders

44. You must go from door to door weekly to gain converts

45. You cannot have friends who are not Jehovah's Witnesses

46. You must refer to all Jehovah's Witnesses as "brother" or "sister"

47. You cannot play chess*

48. You cannot understand the Bible without Watchtower literature to explain it

49. A child abuser is reported to Watchtower elders and not the police

50. You must forgo vacations to attend annual conventions

51. You are discouraged from buying a two door car-A "Theocratic" or "spiritually strong" Jehovah's Witness will have a full size car for the door to door work

52. Men cannot wear beards

53. Men must wear short hair

54. Women cannot pray in the presence of men
without a hat

55. You cannot have a tattoo

56. You forbidden to use any tobacco products

57. Only officially approved sexual practices are allowed in marriage

58. You must appear before a Judicial committee if you are caught breaking Watchtower rules (Secret files are kept on all members which record these meetings-these files are kept in New York and are never destroyed)

59. You must not own wind-chimes (they are for chasing away evil spirits)*

60. You cannot read any anti-Jehovah's Witness material

61. You cannot use pet foods made with blood or blood products

62. You cannot join any clubs or sports teams

63. You cannot wear jade jewelry*

64. You cannot purchase Christian products (books,
music, plaques, pictures etc.)

65. You cannot wear any Christian jewelry

66. Jehovah's Witness meeting places have no windows

67. If you see another Jehovah's Witness breaking the rules you must turn them in to the elders to be interrogated

68. Jesus could have sinned and failed in his mission

69. Jesus was not born the savior but became the savior at his baptism

70. The Watchtower organization is God's prophet on earth today

71. Women must submit to Watchtower elders

72. You cannot support your country

73. One must study Watchtower books at least six months before he can be baptized

74. Before baptism, one must answer over 80 questions in front of a panel of elders

75. Most of The Book of Revelation applies to the Jehovah's Witnesses

76. You cannot celebrate Mothers or Fathers day (it may produce pride)

77. Kingdom Halls cannot have pews for seating

78. JWs are are fobidden to say "good luck"

79. God is not omniscient "all knowing"

80. God is not omnipresent

81. God only speaks through the "Governing Body" in Brooklyn, New York

82. The Holy Spirit is only for select Jehovah's Witnesses

83. The Lord's supper is only to be eaten by select Jehovah's Witnesses (144,000 group-99.99% of Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden from taking the Lord's supper)

84. The Lord's supper can only be offered once per year

85. JWs in times of crisis, are strongly discouraged from consulting with family counselors, including mental health professionals who are not Jehovah's Witnesses

86. Only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon

87. If you have a non-Witness spouse your first loyalty is to the elders over your spouse

88. Jesus was equal to Adam (just a man)

89. Judgment day is 1000 years long

90. If you leave Jehovah's Witnesses or are expelled from the organization you will not be resurrected

91. Only Jehovah's Witness prayers are heard by God

92. Man's salvation is secondary in God's plan; Jesus was sent to "vindicate Jehovah's name"

93. God will destroy all non-Jehovah's Witnesses at armageddon

94. You forbidden to say "God bless you" when someone sneezes.

95. You must never enter a church building

96. You must never attend a church service

97. You cannot be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling

98. You cannot participate in a school play

99. You cannot donate blood or your organs when you die

100. You can never question what is printed in Watchtower literature

10l. You are forbidden to attend a funeral of an ex-Jehovah's Witness

freak6
07-22-2007, 02:25 AM
Ok, so basically it is another example of why religion is a virus on mankind that can only be cured through the spreading of education, rational thought, and reasoned discourse.

TheDave
07-22-2007, 03:26 AM
What was your situation?

spdirty
07-22-2007, 09:45 AM
What was your situation?

my situation came to a head last week, I won't go into details, but I have filed for divorce, I did get her served at the Kingdom Hall, and I will expend all legal resources to ensure that my little guy in the avatar lives under my roof, JW free.

There was a little blip in the article, which is true for me. I would rather see my little man grow up an atheist than a JW.

Spider
07-22-2007, 11:06 AM
my situation came to a head last week, I won't go into details, but I have filed for divorce, I did get her served at the Kingdom Hall, and I will expend all legal resources to ensure that my little guy in the avatar lives under my roof, JW free.

There was a little blip in the article, which is true for me. I would rather see my little man grow up an atheist than a JW.

Bro , I dont know what your situation is , but it must be bad ........ I wish you all the luck , hope everything works out for the best ...... I hate to hear family's splitting up .......

TheDave
07-22-2007, 01:05 PM
my situation came to a head last week, I won't go into details, but I have filed for divorce, I did get her served at the Kingdom Hall, and I will expend all legal resources to ensure that my little guy in the avatar lives under my roof, JW free.

There was a little blip in the article, which is true for me. I would rather see my little man grow up an atheist than a JW.

WOW...I'm sorry to hear that. That must of been a scary transformation to watch. Seriously, good luck to you.

REB
07-22-2007, 02:52 PM
Very sorry to hear it sp. JW's is part of the reason my parents divorced when I was a kid. My dad didn't except their teachings and I stopped going to the Kingdom Hall with my mom shortly after he left because I didn't like it either. I was 14 when he left and stopped going a year later. She tried to force me to go but I asked her just how she thought she was going to do that? She then realized she no longer had the power to make me do anything I didn't want to do and dropped it. Eventually after a few more years my mom stopped going as well and was disfellowshiped. It was some crazy chit. I hope everything works out for you and yours. God Bless!

REB
07-22-2007, 03:00 PM
And there was no way I could bring my son up the way I was raised in that religion. All holiday activities at school were off limits including things like presidents day when you would draw pictures of Lincoln and Washington. My mom would send a note to the teacher telling her that I could not participate so I would end up sitting in the library by myself studying or whatever. This was for all holidays whether religious or not. So of course kids that age don't understand and think there must be something very wrong with you so you kinda have a hard time in school. Crazy nonsense. Again good luck to you man!

epicSocialism4tw
07-22-2007, 03:29 PM
The JW's are a cruel bunch.

Good luck to you, Spdirty.

Spider
07-22-2007, 03:31 PM
And there was no way I could bring my son up the way I was raised in that religion. All holiday activities at school were off limits including things like presidents day when you would draw pictures of Lincoln and Washington. My mom would send a note to the teacher telling her that I could not participate so I would end up sitting in the library by myself studying or whatever. This was for all holidays whether religious or not. So of course kids that age don't understand and think there must be something very wrong with you so you kinda have a hard time in school. Crazy nonsense. Again good luck to you man!
thats ****ed up ..........

spdirty
07-22-2007, 05:16 PM
Thanks for the thoughts guys. Just has been one of the most stressful situations of my life. REB, I just know that what your situation was is whats coming. I refuse to raise my kids like that. Hard thing is that I love my wife so much. But she has left me with no alternative.

I know that when she understands that she will no longer be my wife and a JW at the same time, those ****ing elders will tell her that "Jehova God is testing her." And not to worry because "Jehova God will take care of her." Then in her own ****ed up way, she will feel honored to be tested by Jehova. Just makes me sick the amount of mind control they use and have on her.

Bob's your Information Minister
07-23-2007, 07:27 AM
For anyone that cares, I was a Jehovah's Witness for 19 years. Went to meetings, went out in service rappin' on doors, all that BS. I really had to act like a complete retard during meetings to get my parents to finally relent and let me out of the whole circus. It is a VERY LARGE part of the reason I am the way I am, if that helps you understand me at all.

HOWEVER...

Not everything listed here is true. I'll add another post here in a few minutes separating the bullcrap - which actually, in some cases, further weakens the JW's as an organization. It is my opinion they are losing money and support and won't last much longer.

Bob's your Information Minister
07-23-2007, 07:32 AM
This is all a lie of course, since Witness children are instructed that competitive sports are bad

Not true. My sister competed in club and high school soccer as a youth. One of my JW friends was on his junior high school football team, and another was on my high school team.

seeking any kind of popularity through school or community activities is bad

Not true. My god my sister was popular. I wasn't but wearing star trek shirts will do that.

college is off limits

Definitely not true.

the door-to-door sales activities are the most important thing in life!

The Watchtower and Awake are not sold anymore. Even when they were, they only cost a few cents.

One cannot survive Armageddon or even be counted as a Jehovah's Witness unless one regularly spends time selling Watchtower literature (or as they call it, "placing" literature). Children are to attend all meetings, and have to sit with the adults. They cannot move, chew gum, color pictures, or talk. Even going to the restroom is strongly discouraged!

All this is horribly, awfully, true, although in some congregations perhaps not rigidly enforced. JW's are very inconsistent depending on the region and district. One time I went to the restroom just so I could listen to a Chiefs game on my pocket radio. HEATHEN!

On to "the list."

Bob's your Information Minister
07-23-2007, 07:53 AM
OK. I've gone through the list and picked out everything that, in my experience, is not true, or used to be true but isn't anymore (JWs are flip-floppers. In 1975 they said the world was ending. Dumbasses).

EVERYTHING ELSE IS 100% TRUE.


14. You are discouraged from attending college

Yes, but only mildly. The JWs would prefer you go to their headquarters in New York and become a "Bethelite," working for the organization and printing literature, etc.


16. All pastors are the "Antichrist"

LOL. Don't know who made this one up but it's false. Funny though.


23. You cannot buy girl Scout cookies

This is the funniest one I've heard. I love girlscout cookies (insert bob joke here). So do my parents.

24. You must attend five meetings per week

Yes, but needs explanation. Five meets = three days a week. In my case it was -

Tuesday - Group bookstudy (1 hour).

Usually held at someone's house, with a small group (10-15 people) meeting. A lot of JWs skip this. We used to hold it at my house in Scotland. I'd tape Star Trek TNG. ;D

Thursday - Theocratic Ministry School & Service Meeting (2 hours, 2 meetings).

Boring as ****. 45 minutes of people giving bible-based presentations (some by ignorant kids, gave my first when I was 10), and then an hour or so of older people yammering on about knocking on people's doors and how we're doing.


Sunday - Public Talk & Watchtower Study (2 hours, 2 meetings)

Almost as boring as Thursday. Public talk is 45 minutes of an older JW giving some massive bible-based presentation, usually an Elder. Watchtower Study is an hour of - you guessed it - study the watchtower magazine.

There's an article in each one with paragraphs and questions for each section. The designated "reader" for that Sunday reads each section, and then the "Watchtower Conductor" asks the questions and people answer.

It's really ****ing retarded, because the answers are RIGHT IN THE PARAGRAPHS, and most people just read them verbatim. Bonus points if you put it in your own words! My dad was the watchtower conductor for like ten years of my life, so it REALLY sucked for me.

Let me tell you something - five hours of religious meetings a week will really bring you down. Being pounded over the head with this crap really made me hate it. I came up with every excuse in the book to get out of going to meetings.


29. You cannot be a cheerleader


Not 100 percent sure on this one, but I never knew either way. Considering we were allowed to become jocks, I'd call it BS.


33. You cannot vote in any political campaign

They just changed this. Boy is my dad happy since he's a Fox News junkie. But like I said, flip-floppers!


44. You must go from door to door weekly to gain converts

"Must" and "weekly" are in contention here. "Publishers" are required to do it for 10 hours a month. Pioneers and Regular Pioneers are required to do it for greater periods of time per month. I was lazy and got out of it in any way possible. Sometimes I was bribed with donuts.


45. You cannot have friends who are not Jehovah's Witnesses

Biggest load of BS in this thread, although the Elders would rather you hang out with your brainwashed buddies more regularly than your "worldly" friends.


46. You must refer to all Jehovah's Witnesses as "brother" or "sister"

"Must" is not correct. JWs will use those terms frequently but it is not a requirement.


47. You cannot play chess*

Wow. JWs really had some funny ideas back in the day, eh?


50. You must forgo vacations to attend annual conventions

Yes and no. You're allowed to go on vacation. But they expect you to show up at conventions. And my god do they suck. A "convention" usually consisted of three days of "meetings." Full days, like eight hours, with a break for lunch. They were held in stadiums. I used to bring binoculars to scope out all the JW babes. Sometimes I would fantasize about climbing up into the ceilingworks with a sniper rifle and going to town.


51. You are discouraged from buying a two door car-A "Theocratic" or "spiritually strong" Jehovah's Witness will have a full size car for the door to door work

Um, no. No. Not even remotely.


52. Men cannot wear beards

53. Men must wear short hair

Both are DISCOURAGED, but not required. The Elders would probably have a "chat" with anyone that came in looking like Jake Plummer, though. ;D


57. Only officially approved sexual practices are allowed in marriage


Never heard anything about this. Makes me wonder though. Elders would marry JWs. Wonder if they were told "no doggystyle." ;D


62. You cannot join any clubs or sports teams

More bullcrap. See above (I was in the chess club).


79. God is not omniscient "all knowing"

80. God is not omnipresent

I was always taught he WAS these things. Don't know where these came from.


86. Only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon

This requires insight.

Yes, all you nonbelievers are going to be crushed under fiery, heaven-sent rocks and magma at Armageddon. But apparently, unless you're like SUPER EVIL (Hitler, etc), you get resurrected when the Earth is transformed into a "Paradise" a few minutes after Armageddon is over. Then you are judged, etc, etc. No word on whether or not the Paradise Earth will have internet, satellite TV and NFL football.


93. God will destroy all non-Jehovah's Witnesses at armageddon

Yes, but as stated, all you Bronco fans get resurrected.


95. You must never enter a church building

Wrong. I went to all kinds of old churches for my European History class and no one cared.


98. You cannot participate in a school play

Participated in two school plays.


Hope that clears some stuff up. Also, JWs can't cuss, as if it wasn't obvious.

Bob's your Information Minister
07-23-2007, 08:16 AM
One last thing - calling JW's a "cult" seems off to me. Maybe I am still a little bit brainwashed, but Catholics seem to be more "cultish" to me, IMO. There's certainly a lot more dogma.

Bob
07-23-2007, 02:55 PM
One last thing - calling JW's a "cult" seems off to me. Maybe I am still a little bit brainwashed, but Catholics seem to be more "cultish" to me, IMO. There's certainly a lot more dogma.

Thanks for your perspective and clairifing some stuff... sometimes things get passed as doctrinal truths when they are just regurgitated over and over by those that dont have a personal perspective like yourself.

I do feel bad for spdirty and hope that he is able to work something out...

baja
07-23-2007, 03:36 PM
I love JWs, in fact I have several of the door knockers buried in my back yard just to keep them close.

alkemical
07-23-2007, 04:15 PM
I have a problem with things turn cultish. Like isolation from friends family, etc.

freak6
07-23-2007, 05:24 PM
That sucks SP.

Rescue your child from the insanity.

btw - I don't see how ANYONE can call the JWs beliefs BS, nonsense, or crazy.

It is just a different take on christianity. You can't say they are crazy without admitting all of christianity is. Apply the same rules to

-catholics
-protestants
-lutherans
-espicapalians
-MORmONS
-mulesims
-hindu
-and buddhists

All are equally absurd.

REB
07-23-2007, 05:52 PM
That sucks SP.

Rescue your child from the insanity.

btw - I don't see how ANYONE can call the JWs beliefs BS, nonsense, or crazy.

It is just a different take on christianity. You can't say they are crazy without admitting all of christianity is. Apply the same rules to

-catholics
-protestants
-lutherans
-espicapalians
-MORmONS
-mulesims
-hindu
-and buddhists

All are equally absurd.

I don't think so freak.

If you have one Christian who believes in love and forgiveness and lives in peace with his neighbors (the things that Jesus taught), then across the street you have someone who calls themself a Christian but hates others like the KKK or the Phelps family do and would love to see people who disagree with them killed, that the two are equally absurd? I don't.

And if one of your missions in life is to get people to stop believing in God then I would go about it in a much different way. I don't think your going to win many converts with the method you a lot of times tend to use. Just sayin...

God Bless

orangenblue2
07-23-2007, 06:07 PM
Thanks for the thoughts guys. Just has been one of the most stressful situations of my life. REB, I just know that what your situation was is whats coming. I refuse to raise my kids like that. Hard thing is that I love my wife so much. But she has left me with no alternative.

I know that when she understands that she will no longer be my wife and a JW at the same time, those ****ing elders will tell her that "Jehova God is testing her." And not to worry because "Jehova God will take care of her." Then in her own ****ed up way, she will feel honored to be tested by Jehova. Just makes me sick the amount of mind control they use and have on her.

I wish you well...While reading the posts in this thread, I was struck by the thought that "one man's cult is another man's religion". Your comment on "mind control" is especially poignant...Good luck...

Bob
07-23-2007, 07:17 PM
I don't think so freak.

If you have one Christian who believes in love and forgiveness and lives in peace with his neighbors (the things that Jesus taught), then across the street you have someone who calls themself a Christian but hates others like the KKK or the Phelps family do and would love to see people who disagree with them killed, that the two are equally absurd? I don't.

And if one of your missions in life is to get people to stop believing in God then I would go about it in a much different way. I don't think your going to win many converts with the method you a lot of times tend to use. Just sayin...

God Bless

Dont bite, or he will hijack another thread... :deadhorse

epicSocialism4tw
07-23-2007, 07:40 PM
Dont bite, or he will hijack another thread...

He is best taken on ignore.

yavoon
07-23-2007, 08:12 PM
btw since the word cult is being passed around, thought we'd wanna whipout a cult checklist.

1)The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

2) Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

3)Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

4)The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

5) The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

6) The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

7) The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

8) The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

9)The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

10)Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

11)The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

12)The group is preoccupied with making money.

13)Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

14)Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

15) The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

yavoon
07-23-2007, 08:15 PM
That sucks SP.

Rescue your child from the insanity.

btw - I don't see how ANYONE can call the JWs beliefs BS, nonsense, or crazy.

It is just a different take on christianity. You can't say they are crazy without admitting all of christianity is. Apply the same rules to

-catholics
-protestants
-lutherans
-espicapalians
-MORmONS
-mulesims
-hindu
-and buddhists

All are equally absurd.

wth is a mulesim?

epicSocialism4tw
07-23-2007, 08:16 PM
wth is a mulesim?

Its similar to an espicapalian.

baja
07-23-2007, 08:19 PM
btw since the word cult is being passed around, thought we'd wanna whipout a cult checklist.

1)The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

2) Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

3)Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

4)The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

5) The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

6) The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

7) The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

8) The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

9)The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

10)Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

11)The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

12)The group is preoccupied with making money.

13)Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

14)Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

15) The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

You just described the Bush administration.

REB
07-23-2007, 08:25 PM
Its similar to an espicapalian.


I'm taking it that Mormons are Morons, Muslims are Mules and Episcopalians are despicable...... oy vey

Sort of like the kiddie names like repukes, repugs, democraps, etc...... hahahaha...how clever

yavoon
07-23-2007, 08:27 PM
You just described the Bush administration.

I got the list to make a comparison for a discussion about islam w/ someone. but I'm sure it works for more religions/groups too.

Bob
07-24-2007, 12:18 AM
I got the list to make a comparison for a discussion about islam w/ someone. but I'm sure it works for more religions/groups too.

I don’t think that Muslims are part of a cult -- and you may know that I too have serious ideological issues with Muslims that will not tolerate the existence of the infidel (i.e. just about everyone else.)

But, I wonder when does the size of a faith have anything to do with it being a cult? Historically Christianity in the broad sense was considered a cult by the majority groups of the time -- so when did it reach past that label? Maybe, when the stamp of approval/acceptability was given to it by the majority group(Constantine in this case) who wished to used this growing faith to prop up his dieing empire.

With 1 billion members Islam is not a cult. Political Islam will be the end of Europe, so it may be an issue of semantics, but the word “cult” does imply that is small, and on the fringes of society -- if we place Islam there I think we intellectually dismiss its ideology as some gad fly rather than the true threat that it is.

yavoon
07-24-2007, 12:54 AM
I don’t think that Muslims are part of a cult -- and you may know that I too have serious ideological issues with Muslims that will not tolerate the existence of the infidel (i.e. just about everyone else.)

But, I wonder when does the size of a faith have anything to do with it being a cult? Historically Christianity in the broad sense was considered a cult by the majority groups of the time -- so when did it reach past that label? Maybe, when the stamp of approval/acceptability was given to it by the majority group(Constantine in this case) who wished to used this growing faith to prop up his dieing empire.

With 1 billion members Islam is not a cult. Political Islam will be the end of Europe, so it may be an issue of semantics, but the word “cult” does imply that is small, and on the fringes of society -- if we place Islam there I think we intellectually dismiss its ideology as some gad fly rather than the true threat that it is.

notice none of the checklists of a cult have anything to do w/ size. as for how islam does, the first 7 are all but a slam-dunk against islam, historically, theologically, practically. 9,10,11 and 15 are pretty damn easy too.

so that puts the slam dunks at 11/15. and its not like the others don't have good arguments. thats pretty cultish to me.

Bronco Bob
07-24-2007, 01:17 AM
notice none of the checklists of a cult have anything to do w/ size. as for how islam does, the first 7 are all but a slam-dunk against islam, historically, theologically, practically. 9,10,11 and 15 are pretty damn easy too.

so that puts the slam dunks at 11/15. and its not like the others don't have good arguments. thats pretty cultish to me.

I don't see where 10 applies to Islam:

10)Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

The majority of people that practice Islam have been doing it for generations
and all their relatives and friends are already Muslims too.
So where does cutting ties with family and friends to become a Muslim
come in? And if they are born into a Muslim family, which the majority of
Muslims are, what goals do they have to radically alter to be a Muslim?

yavoon
07-24-2007, 01:40 AM
I don't see where 10 applies to Islam:

10)Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

The majority of people that practice Islam have been doing it for generations
and all their relatives and friends are already Muslims too.
So where does cutting ties with family and friends to become a Muslim
come in? And if they are born into a Muslim family, which the majority of
Muslims are, what goals do they have to radically alter to be a Muslim?

well obviously if ur already muslim there's not much to leave. the problem comes in new converts and how they view old family members, or even worse how apostates are viewed by a muslim family.

"When in the battle of Badr, Nadhr ibn Harith, a poet of Mecca and a cousin of Muhammad who was critical of him was captured, he turned to his captor Musab, his one time friend and asked him to intercede on his behalf so Muhammad does not kill him. Musab reminded him that he had denied the faith and had ridiculed Muhammad. “Ah!” said Nadhr, “had the Quraish made you a prisoner, they would never have put you to death!” “Even were it so,” Musab scornfully replied, “I am not as you are; Islam has rent all bonds asunder." "

or if u just wanna skip ahead straight to the koran:

"9:23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."

spdirty
07-26-2007, 01:18 AM
Well, I think I might have a pretty good case to get custody of Reagan. I have a steady job, although I gave up my ownership of it last November (a godsend), I didn't close on my house yet, gonna put it n my grandfather's name and have him quick claim it to me me when all this is over, although I will be living here, she will have absolutely no claim to it. I'll have free daycare for him because my sister will watch him for free while I work.

The wife on the other hand, has no place to live, has no car, no drivers license (I think this might be HUGE in case of emergency), and once the divorce is final, her immigration status might be in doubt. She might get alimony, but I don't think that would be more than 1,000/month. Oh, and her credit is absolute ****. So damnit I'm hoping.

Just, in a perfect world I would be able to mentally break her down completely and it would force her to rethink what this cult has done to her. Then maybe in the future we would be able to reconcile and remarry. I hope we could somehow work it out but the situation we have is just so damn damaging to the boys.

My dillema is, I grew up without a mother since I was 8. I just wanted these 2 boys to grow up in a happy home with 2 parents. But on the other hand, I have to at least protect my biological son from this cult. I don't know what the right thing is. Its like I feel my boys are damned if I do, damned if I don't. And even though I am religious and I do go to church, I would give mine up in a heartbeat if it were for the good of the family. She won't.

I don't know, everything is just so ****ed. But, there is one tiny piece of good news. All the damn stress has caused me to lose 28 pounds in the last 12 days, and holy hell I'm right back at the weight I wanted to be.

Anyway, thanks again for the notes of support guys. Appreciate it.