Michael Vick INDICTED!!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well there is only one way to disprove his claim.....what is the involvment of the feds in animal abuse cases? Oh, I get it, you think Poindexter is being unfairly criticized too.

This isn't the first time the federal government has been involved in dog fighting. So either Poindexter is ignorant or purposely trying to excuse or deflect away from his lack of purpose in getting Vick and the others there.

[footstepsfrom#27]

And I was laughed at by footsteps and co. when they said that the investigators were wasting their time and taking too long with their investigation, waiting too long to dig, wouldn't be able to tie Vick in with anything after so much time had passed, etc. And I kept saying that they wanted to take their time building as strong and air-tight a case as possible, knowing full well they'd be in real trouble if they didn't.....Granted, nothing is proven yet and the defense has yet to tell their side, but the investigators and prosecution to this point have done exactly what they needed to do.
That's not quite how that conversation developed. You characterized the local DA as not doing his job and I pointed out that the feds themselves also went a considerable length of time before they obtained a 2nd warrant to revisit the property, thus exposing the crime scene to contamination or foul play for an entire month by allowing the suspect access to it. How exactly does it aid "building an air tight case" by waiting an entire month to go back and dig while allowing the primary suspect access to the scene? Do you suppose this hick town DA who presides over a county with a population of 6,800 people has the resources at his disposal that the feds do? Maybe its just barely possible he was moving slower because he had 2 Goobers and a Gomer at his disposal instead of an army of suits?

In other news...the local DA that people have been anxious to villify as trying to sweep it under the run have said they expect to file their own charges...noting in the process that killing dogs is a felony under Virginia state laws but not under federal law: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/falcons/2007-07-18-vick-local-charges_N.htm

[Bronco_Beerslug]

In other news...the local DA that people have been anxious to villify as trying to sweep it under the run have said they expect to file their own charges...noting in the process that killing dogs is a felony under Virginia state laws but not under federal law: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/falcons/2007-07-18-vick-local-charges_N.htm

LOL

The guy is going to be voted out in a few months for incompetence and or indifference in this case and rightly so.

He's just trying to run damage control now.

[Kaylore]

I'm really glad I took the time to read through this whole thread. Vick has done some evil things and looks like he and his brother are two peas in a pod. I totally agree with Taco on the not watching Vick games. I hope he goes to prison and I hope Goodell brings the hammer down on him and Portis.

Also that music video was funny when it said "I through him a bone, I underthrew my dog a bone". If I was an Atlanta fan I'd be ashamed of myself and if I was Arthur Blank, I'd cut Vick now. He's a dirty thug.

[footstepsfrom#27]

LOL

The guy is going to be voted out in a few months for incompetence and or indifference in this case and rightly so.

He's just trying to run damage control now.
And you know this...how?

[NaptownChief]

the local DA that people have been anxious to villify as trying to sweep it under the run have said they expect to file their own charges...


Mrs.. Lincoln thought it was a bad idea to go to the play after the fact also.

That is big of him to file charges after he has been made the fool. He was probably the one that was telling the Falcons ownership last week not to worry that Vick won't be facing any charges.

Your pandering of the ignorant in the name of skin color is beyond predictable and beyond comical.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So does Clinton Portis have a little egg on his face or do you think he even gives a ****?
After hearing Portis comment on it before I imagine he probably feels like the prosecutor (Poindexter) in the case that it's all racially motivated.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Your pandering of the ignorant in the name of skin color is beyond predictable and beyond comical.

It was pretty obvious when this happened...

Later, after an informant suggested (http://sportsline.com/nfl/story/10247883) authorities could find as many as 30 dogs buried on the property, including seven buried only days before the initial raid. Surry County officials secured a search warrant, but never acted on it because prosecutor Gerald G. Poindexter said he had concerns with the document.

On June 7, the day that warrant expired, federal officials executed their own with the help of state police investigators.

Poindexter publicly questioned the federal government's interest in a dogfighting case. He suggested that Vick's celebrity was the draw, and raised race as a possible motivation as well.

Poindexter and Vick are black, as is Sheriff Harold Brown.

Vick has said he had no idea the property may have been used in a criminal enterprise and blamed family members for taking advantage of his generosity. He also put the house up for sale and reportedly sold it quickly.

[Garcia Bronco]

Oh, I get it, you think Poindexter is being unfairly criticized too.

This isn't the first time the federal government has been involved in dog fighting. So either Poindexter is ignorant or purposely trying to excuse or deflect away from his lack of purpose in getting Vick and the others there.

Gosh...I can't testify to his intent, but I think a few here are blowing his comments, that are out on context, out of proportion. But whatever..believe what you want. It's not like you have intimate knowledge of the man or the area. I know someone who does though. :)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Gosh...I can't testify to his intent, but I think a few here are blowing his comments, that are out on context, out of proportion. But whatever..believe what you want. It's not like you have intimate knowledge of the man or the area. I know someone who does though. :)Aren't you the guy that has been defending these Vick POS's with the aid of all your local "intimate knowledge"?

[bronco militia]

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/drew/archives/drew0719.gif

[crowebomber]

Aren't you the guy that has been defending these Vick POS's with the aid of all your local "intimate knowledge"?

He doesn't have the "intimate knowledge" but some guy he met on the light rail does.

[Garcia Bronco]

Aren't you the guy that has been defending these Vick POS's with the aid of all your local "intimate knowledge"?

What do you mean by defending?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

What do you mean by defending?

defending (http://www.tfd.com/defending)

de·fend (d-fnd)
v. de·fend·ed, de·fend·ing, de·fends
v.tr.
1. To make or keep safe from danger, attack, or harm.

3. To support or maintain, as by argument or action; justify.

[Garcia Bronco]

defending (http://www.tfd.com/defending)

de·fend (d-fnd)
v. de·fend·ed, de·fend·ing, de·fends
v.tr.
1. To make or keep safe from danger, attack, or harm.

3. To support or maintain, as by argument or action; justify.

And again...what do you mean by defending?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And again...what do you mean by defending?
It doesn't get any clearer than that, most elementary school kids have the definition down by their 3rd year or so. Did you actually attend any classes there at VT?

[Dagmar]

http://www.nypost.com/delonas/2007/07/07192007.jpg

[AtlantaBronco]

I live in Atlanta I sent this letter to Arthur Blank this morning:

July 18, 2007<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Arthur Blank<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">4400 Falcon Parkway</st1:address></st1:Street>
Flowery <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Branch</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">GA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">30542</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Dear Mr. Blank:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m writing to challenge you to do the right thing and summarily dismiss Michael Vick from the Atlanta Falcons organization. I urge you to do it before the NFL suspends him. You have a unique window of opportunity to take the stand now. I consider you a class guy but if you don’t act swiftly and unambiguously you will be nothing but an enabler of a sick and evil man.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I’ve read the Michael Vick indictment and I’m disgusted. I’m not a member or affiliate of any animal rights organization. My child does have a pet and I cannot imagine what type of monster gets his jollies watching two animals rip each other to bits. I equate this type of tormentor to that of a child molester. Is this the character you want to be the face of your franchise?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I haven’t always agreed with the decisions you have made. I thought it was a mistake to fire Dan Reeves. You were clearly fooled by the sales pitch of Jim Mora when you hired him. Thankfully you corrected that mistake. My family can no longer support companies that sponser the Falcons as long as Michael Vick is any part of the Falcon’s organization. This includes Delta Airlines, Verizon Wireless, Russell Athletic, Ford Motor Company, Woolfson Eye Institute, AT&T, Stub Hub, and any other organization that is an “official” sponsor of the Falcons. I will contact each of these organizations separately to inform them. I will also contact companies that Vick endorses outside of the Falcons as I will boycott their products as long as he is a compensated endorser. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Clearly, Vick has incredible football talent. However, he lacks the morals, intelligence, and intangibles to lead the Falcons and be the face of the franchise. I think it is clear now. I can assure you the company I work for would dismiss me immediately if I was in Vick’s shoes. If Vick was an $8 an hour Home Depot employee he would have already been let go. Why should the Falcons be any different?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Blank, anything short of his prompt dismissal from the team will make you part of the problem. He has made a fool of you. Practice what you preach or shut up.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I eagerly await your response. <o:p></o:p>

[-Slap-]

I live in Atlanta I sent this letter to Arthur Blank this morning:

July 18, 2007<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Arthur Blank<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">4400 Falcon Parkway</st1:address></st1:Street>
Flowery <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Branch</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">GA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">30542</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Dear Mr. Blank:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m writing to challenge you to do the right thing and summarily dismiss Michael Vick from the Atlanta Falcons organization. I urge you to do it before the NFL suspends him. You have a unique window of opportunity to take the stand now. I consider you a class guy but if you don’t act swiftly and unambiguously you will be nothing but an enabler of a sick and evil man.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I’ve read the Michael Vick indictment and I’m disgusted. I’m not a member or affiliate of any animal rights organization. My child does have a pet and I cannot imagine what type of monster gets his jollies watching two animals rip each other to bits. I equate this type of tormentor to that of a child molester. Is this the character you want to be the face of your franchise?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I haven’t always agreed with the decisions you have made. I thought it was a mistake to fire Dan Reeves. You were clearly fooled by the sales pitch of Jim Mora when you hired him. Thankfully you corrected that mistake. My family can no longer support companies that sponser the Falcons as long as Michael Vick is any part of the Falcon’s organization. This includes Delta Airlines, Verizon Wireless, Russell Athletic, Ford Motor Company, Woolfson Eye Institute, AT&T, Stub Hub, and any other organization that is an “official” sponsor of the Falcons. I will contact each of these organizations separately to inform them. I will also contact companies that Vick endorses outside of the Falcons as I will boycott their products as long as he is a compensated endorser. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Clearly, Vick has incredible football talent. However, he lacks the morals, intelligence, and intangibles to lead the Falcons and be the face of the franchise. I think it is clear now. I can assure you the company I work for would dismiss me immediately if I was in Vick’s shoes. If Vick was an $8 an hour Home Depot employee he would have already been let go. Why should the Falcons be any different?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Blank, anything short of his prompt dismissal from the team will make you part of the problem. He has made a fool of you. Practice what you preach or shut up.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I eagerly await your response. <o:p></o:p>

That was fantastic. You've inspired me to make sure my voice is heard, too. I'll be sending Mr Blank a similar letter in the next day or two.

[Garcia Bronco]

I live in Atlanta I sent this letter to Arthur Blank this morning:

July 18, 2007<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Arthur Blank<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">4400 Falcon Parkway</st1:address></st1:Street>
Flowery <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Branch</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">GA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">30542</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Dear Mr. Blank:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m writing to challenge you to do the right thing and summarily dismiss Michael Vick from the Atlanta Falcons organization. I urge you to do it before the NFL suspends him. You have a unique window of opportunity to take the stand now. I consider you a class guy but if you don’t act swiftly and unambiguously you will be nothing but an enabler of a sick and evil man.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I’ve read the Michael Vick indictment and I’m disgusted. I’m not a member or affiliate of any animal rights organization. My child does have a pet and I cannot imagine what type of monster gets his jollies watching two animals rip each other to bits. I equate this type of tormentor to that of a child molester. Is this the character you want to be the face of your franchise?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I haven’t always agreed with the decisions you have made. I thought it was a mistake to fire Dan Reeves. You were clearly fooled by the sales pitch of Jim Mora when you hired him. Thankfully you corrected that mistake. My family can no longer support companies that sponser the Falcons as long as Michael Vick is any part of the Falcon’s organization. This includes Delta Airlines, Verizon Wireless, Russell Athletic, Ford Motor Company, Woolfson Eye Institute, AT&T, Stub Hub, and any other organization that is an “official” sponsor of the Falcons. I will contact each of these organizations separately to inform them. I will also contact companies that Vick endorses outside of the Falcons as I will boycott their products as long as he is a compensated endorser. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Clearly, Vick has incredible football talent. However, he lacks the morals, intelligence, and intangibles to lead the Falcons and be the face of the franchise. I think it is clear now. I can assure you the company I work for would dismiss me immediately if I was in Vick’s shoes. If Vick was an $8 an hour Home Depot employee he would have already been let go. Why should the Falcons be any different?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Blank, anything short of his prompt dismissal from the team will make you part of the problem. He has made a fool of you. Practice what you preach or shut up.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I eagerly await your response. <o:p></o:p>

He shouldn't cut him until he's be convicted.

[Garcia Bronco]

It doesn't get any clearer than that, most elementary school kids have the definition down by their 3rd year or so. Did actually attend any classes there at VT?

See...now you're just trying to be insulting. Obviously you understand that I know the definition of the word.

[Atwater His Ass]

He's done more than enough, convicted or not, to justify being cut.

[Atlas]

I live in Atlanta I sent this letter to Arthur Blank this morning:

July 18, 2007<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Arthur Blank<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">4400 Falcon Parkway</st1:address></st1:Street>
Flowery <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Branch</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">GA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">30542</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Dear Mr. Blank:<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m writing to challenge you to do the right thing and summarily dismiss Michael Vick from the Atlanta Falcons organization. I urge you to do it before the NFL suspends him. You have a unique window of opportunity to take the stand now. I consider you a class guy but if you don’t act swiftly and unambiguously you will be nothing but an enabler of a sick and evil man.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I’ve read the Michael Vick indictment and I’m disgusted. I’m not a member or affiliate of any animal rights organization. My child does have a pet and I cannot imagine what type of monster gets his jollies watching two animals rip each other to bits. I equate this type of tormentor to that of a child molester. Is this the character you want to be the face of your franchise?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I haven’t always agreed with the decisions you have made. I thought it was a mistake to fire Dan Reeves. You were clearly fooled by the sales pitch of Jim Mora when you hired him. Thankfully you corrected that mistake. My family can no longer support companies that sponser the Falcons as long as Michael Vick is any part of the Falcon’s organization. This includes Delta Airlines, Verizon Wireless, Russell Athletic, Ford Motor Company, Woolfson Eye Institute, AT&T, Stub Hub, and any other organization that is an “official” sponsor of the Falcons. I will contact each of these organizations separately to inform them. I will also contact companies that Vick endorses outside of the Falcons as I will boycott their products as long as he is a compensated endorser. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Clearly, Vick has incredible football talent. However, he lacks the morals, intelligence, and intangibles to lead the Falcons and be the face of the franchise. I think it is clear now. I can assure you the company I work for would dismiss me immediately if I was in Vick’s shoes. If Vick was an $8 an hour Home Depot employee he would have already been let go. Why should the Falcons be any different?<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Blank, anything short of his prompt dismissal from the team will make you part of the problem. He has made a fool of you. Practice what you preach or shut up.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I eagerly await your response. <o:p></o:p>

I hope you didn't sign it "AtlantaBronco"

[Garcia Bronco]

He's done more than enough, convicted or not, to justify being cut.

I know you realize that he hasn't actually been convicted of any wrong doing yet. There is nothing wrong with waiting for due process.

[Atwater His Ass]

Most other companies don't wait for due process. You're lucky if you can get suspended with or with out pay. Most just cut you loose if based on nothing more that you allowed yourself to be put in a compramising position and it shows a lack of character and judgement.

Vick is entitled to his due process. He's not entitled to play in the NFL.

[rbackfactory80]

I hope Michael Vick dies, just I hope anybody who engages in this type of barbarism dies.

The lowlifes who minimize and tacitly defend this type of behavior are punished enough by waking up in their own miserable skin every day.

I would have no problem with his death. A person capable of what he has done is capable of other acts that are even more incomprehensible, if thats possible. The details of the deaths of the dogs were gruesome. How you could throw a dog from mid air to the concrete on its head, or electrocute, or shoot these animals is so ****ed up. He will meet his maker, in the next life for sure.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

http://www.nypost.com/delonas/2007/07/07192007.jpg

I wish they would lock the POS in a cage with a few of those dogs. They would do more than lift their legs.

[Garcia Bronco]

Most other companies don't wait for due process. You're lucky if you can get suspended with or with out pay. Most just cut you loose if based on nothing more that you allowed yourself to be put in a compramising position and it shows a lack of character and judgement.

Vick is entitled to his due process. He's not entitled to play in the NFL.

But if he's innocent and they fired him over nothing, then they expose themselves to risk from a financial perspective. I've seen companies that did what your are talking about take it on the chin because they jumped to conclusions. I also feel confident the NFL has done it's own investigating, and might even be th eones that pulled the feds in. There is nothing wrong with waiting for a trial to conclude before handing out additional punishment and/or termination. Even the commish agrees in this instance. I also feel confident that if you were accused of a crime, you would want the same treatment of due process.

[Atwater His Ass]

But if he's innocent and they fired him over nothing, then they expose themselves to risk from a financial perspective. I've seen companies that did what your are talking about take it on the chin because they jumped to conclusions. I also feel confident the NFL has done it's own investigating, and might even be th eones that pulled the feds in. There is nothing wrong with waiting for a trial to conclude before handing out additional punishment and/or termination. Even the commish agrees in this instance. I also feel confident that if you were accused of a crime, you would want the same treatment of due process.

Sure I would want that treatment, but I certainly wouldn't expect it. If you are risk for your employer or portray an image that harms the company, that is enough to let you walk. If the Falcons as an organization wish to wait until conviction or not, that is their choice, but they are cetainly well within their rights to terminate Vicks employment.

[Beantown Bronco]

He shouldn't cut him until he's be convicted.

Not necessarily. He was already losing endorsement deals before this incident was even made public. The "water bottle" incident, the flipping off of fans, the genital herpes episode.....his overall behavior the last few years has not been acceptable in the eyes of his sponsors, so they have cut him. Why should this overall pattern of behavior be acceptable to his employer, when it is clearly unacceptable to his sponsors, regardless of whether or not he is actually found by a court to be guilty of this particular event?

The public has already convicted him and sent the message to his employer that keeping him on the roster is NOT acceptable. From the team and owner's perspective, they are looking at losing revenue if they keep him on the roster, regardless of what the court finds. The people have spoken and the damage is done. The only thing they can do to mitigate the financial losses would be to cut him.

[Atwater His Ass]

I know it's been said before, but man, I bet they wish they had Schaub now.

[Garcia Bronco]

Sure I would want that treatment, but I certainly wouldn't expect it. If you are risk for your employer or portray an image that harms the company, that is enough to let you walk. If the Falcons as an organization wish to wait until conviction or not, that is their choice, but they are cetainly well within their rights to terminate Vicks employment.

Well the latter is true of anybody, and I think you should expect it. No one has a right to a job, but the ideals of our country include the premise of innocent until proven guilty. While that doesn't translate to employment from a legal perspective, it's still prudent to practice the ideal. This comes into conflict with public opinion, which can be a bunch of garbage and a sword that weak minded people rattle to justify their own prejudices, morals, and ideals.

[BroncoBuff]

Geez ... the stuff I'm reading sounds unreal. Isn't that Jeffrey Dahmer childhood behavior ?? Isn't that what they said to look out for in kids, to guard against Dahmers ?

This stuff cannot all be true ... it just cannot be true. It's too wrong to even comprehend.

[Beantown Bronco]

But if he's innocent and they fired him over nothing, then they expose themselves to risk from a financial perspective.

I think it's more of a financial risk to keep him around. It's one thing if you are talking about a consistently good team cutting a winner like Brady or Manning. It's another when you are talking about a mediocre at best team like the Falcons and Michael Vick. The team is not all of a sudden going to lose games they would normally win because you are cutting Vick, so they won't lose money there. They WILL lose money on jersey sales by cutting him, but that is going to happen regardless of whether or not they cut him. Nobody is going to buy those things now even if he remains on the team. The damage is done.

Where is the financial risk in cutting him?

[TailgateNut]

I know you realize that he hasn't actually been convicted of any wrong doing yet. There is nothing wrong with waiting for due process.


Shanahan would have administered the Lie detector test and sent him packing.
Don't be a "Lone Bolt"!

[bronco militia]

Where is the financial risk in cutting him?

the rules of the salary cap would limit the Falcons ability to put a quality product on the field if they just cut him today.

anyway, the Falcons should consider giving Vick a paid leave of absence until this mess is resolved.

[Garcia Bronco]

Not necessarily. He was already losing endorsement deals before this incident was even made public. The "water bottle" incident, the flipping off of fans, the genital herpes episode.....his overall behavior the last few years has not been acceptable in the eyes of his sponsors, so they have cut him. Why should this overall pattern of behavior be acceptable to his employer, when it is clearly unacceptable to his sponsors, regardless of whether or not he is actually found by a court to be guilty of this particular event?

The public has already convicted him and sent the message to his employer that keeping him on the roster is NOT acceptable. From the team and owner's perspective, they are looking at losing revenue if they keep him on the roster, regardless of what the court finds. The people have spoken and the damage is done. The only thing they can do to mitigate the financial losses would be to cut him.

His sponsors and his employer are pretty much mutually exclusive. I don't have any knowledge of his endorsement deals, when they expire, and what they might have been yanked for. All I know is this: The water bottle had nothing to do with anything. The Herpes deal was an accusation by a woman that could have been trying to shake him down. As far as the middle finger...I could see me getting upset by that if I had never given anyone the middle finger, but unforunately I have. :)

Again, public opinion is the shield that tyrants hide behind, because the public doesn't know the truth. Hopefully a court of law comes to the truth and justice will be done what ever that may be.

[Garcia Bronco]

I think it's more of a financial risk to keep him around. It's one thing if you are talking about a consistently good team cutting a winner like Brady or Manning. It's another when you are talking about a mediocre at best team like the Falcons and Michael Vick. The team is not all of a sudden going to lose games they would normally win because you are cutting Vick, so they won't lose money there. They WILL lose money on jersey sales by cutting him, but that is going to happen regardless of whether or not they cut him. Nobody is going to buy those things now even if he remains on the team. The damage is done.

Where is the financial risk in cutting him?

That's a question Blank has to answer.

[NaptownChief]

He shouldn't cut him until he's be convicted.


He deserves to be cut right now however if waiting for a conviction helps the Falcons case from a legal standpoint to recover part of his signing bonus then I don't blame them waiting for a conviction.

[Beantown Bronco]

the rules of the salary cap would limit the Falcons ability to put a quality product on the field if they just cut him today.

It would be spread over this year (which they've already accounted for) and next year (in which the overall cap is supposed to go up by at least another $10 million....so that would take care of whatever accelerated charge he would be responsible for). I don't see a real problem there.

Not to mention, with him in the lineup, they have had a hard time putting a quality product on the field.

[Beantown Bronco]

That's a question Blank has to answer.

No - It's a question for you. You are the one who said there would be a financial risk.

[Beantown Bronco]

His sponsors and his employer are pretty much mutually exclusive. I don't have any knowledge of his endorsement deals, when they expire, and what they might have been yanked for. All I know is this: The water bottle had nothing to do with anything. The Herpes deal was an accusation by a woman that could have been trying to shake him down. As far as the middle finger...I could see me getting upset by that if I had never given anyone the middle finger, but unforunately I have. :)

Again, public opinion is the shield that tyrants hide behind, because the public doesn't know the truth. Hopefully a court of law comes to the truth and justice will be done what ever that may be.

You are missing the key point of this whole discussion by looking at this from a legal perspective and not a business perspective. Arthur Blank needs to concern himself with the business side.....and that is what I've been focused on. Regardless of whether the water bottle, herpes incident and middle finger were illegal....or even just Vick's fault....doesn't matter. What DOES matter, from an owner's perspective is this: is he hurting my bottom line. Up until now, he hasn't done enough to hurt the bottom line. Now, however, with this newest incident, I believe he has. People and sponsors are fleeing like rats from a sinking ship and he may be forced to act quickly (certainly quicker than the courts) if he wants to save his income stream.

[Garcia Bronco]

You are missing the key point of this whole discussion by looking at this from a legal perspective and not a business perspective. Arthur Blank needs to concern himself with the business side.....and that is what I've been focused on. Regardless of whether the water bottle, herpes incident and middle finger were illegal....or even just Vick's fault....doesn't matter. What DOES matter, from an owner's perspective is this: is he hurting my bottom line. Up until now, he hasn't done enough to hurt the bottom line. Now, however, with this newest incident, I believe he has. People and sponsors are fleeing like rats from a sinking ship and he may be forced to act quickly (certainly quicker than the courts) if he wants to save his income stream.

I didn't miss that point. You are correct, but I don't really think this is hurting his bottom line in any way he could tell right now. But like I said that's a question for Blank to answer.

[bronco militia]

What DOES matter, from an owner's perspective is this: is he hurting my bottom line. Up until now, he hasn't done enough to hurt the bottom line. Now, however, with this newest incident, I believe he has. People and sponsors are fleeing like rats from a sinking ship and he may be forced to act quickly (certainly quicker than the courts) if he wants to save his income stream.


that's exaclty why the league should suspend him, or the Falcons give him a leave of absence....

[NaptownChief]

But if he's innocent and they fired him over nothing, . .


Whether he is guilty of being directly involved and a cornerstone of the dog fighting business is yet to be determined.....One thing that isn't up for grabs is the fact that he is clearly guilty of financing the operation. That alone is poor judgment enough to send him to the streets and that much is already certain.

But anybody with a brain already knows his story is complete BS. Anybody who is a registered dog breeder clearly has a passion for dogs or at least a very serious interest....and anybody with a passion or serious interest for dogs doesn't have 60+ dogs on property they own and not have a clue as to what is going. If he had never been to the property even one time then his story could be plausible but the fact he admitted to being there, just not very often makes it a complete BS story and everyone knows it.

I want this bum ran out of the league as much as anyone but personally I think I would enjoy seeing him try and play a couple games with everybody in the stands just booing and ripping him to shreds first. Watching him melt down and be humiliated before getting booted from the league would probably be most enjoyable.

[RocBronc]

Well the latter is true of anybody, and I think you should expect it. No one has a right to a job, but the ideals of our country include the premise of innocent until proven guilty. While that doesn't translate to employment from a legal perspective, it's still prudent to practice the ideal. This comes into conflict with public opinion, which can be a bunch of garbage and a sword that weak minded people rattle to justify their own prejudices, morals, and ideals.

There's no moral imperative that I should consider someone innocent until proven guilty (by our judicial system). If I witness someone shooting someone else, I would be morally bankrupt if I didn't consider that person guilty.

[bronco militia]

I want this bum ran out of the league as much as anyone but personally I think I would enjoy seeing him try and play a couple games with everybody in the stands just booing and ripping him to shreds first. Watching him melt down and be humiliated before getting booted from the league would probably be most enjoyable.

no doub!...but I don't see how the league and falcons would let this ever happen. The current statement from the league office is quite baffling

[Garcia Bronco]

There's no moral imperative that I should consider someone innocent until proven guilty (by our judicial system). If I witness someone shooting someone else, I would be morally bankrupt if I didn't consider that person guilty.

But you also wouldn't be in a position to judge the case as a witness.

[Garcia Bronco]

Whether he is guilty of being directly involved and a cornerstone of the dog fighting business is yet to be determined.....One thing that isn't up for grabs is the fact that he is clearly guilty of financing the operation. That alone is poor judgment enough to send him to the streets and that much is already certain.

But anybody with a brain already knows his story is complete BS. Anybody who is a registered dog breeder clearly has a passion for dogs or at least a very serious interest....and anybody with a passion or serious interest for dogs doesn't have 60+ dogs on property they own and not have a clue as to what is going. If he had never been to the property even one time then his story could be plausible but the fact he admitted to being there, just not very often makes it a complete BS story and everyone knows it.

I want this bum ran out of the league as much as anyone but personally I think I would enjoy seeing him try and play a couple games with everybody in the stands just booing and ripping him to shreds first. Watching him melt down and be humiliated before getting booted from the league would probably be most enjoyable.

I agree. After reading the actual charges agaisnt him, it's hard to believe he would be innocent or his story, but again he'll get his day in court.

[Beantown Bronco]

but again he'll get his day in court.

A court where only 5% of defendants win their cases.

[Garcia Bronco]

A court where only 5% of defendants win their cases.

8 percent...but yes...that is what he and his cousins are looking at

[cousinal11]

8 percent...but yes...that is what he and his cousins are looking at

Sounds like Vick's completion percentage in the second half of close games.

[RocBronc]

But you also wouldn't be in a position to judge the case as a witness.

True, but that's irrelavent to your point that you tried to make in your earlier post. (That's it's morally virtuous to consider someone innocent until proven guilty.) I just gave an obvious example where it wouldn't be morally virtuous.

[Garcia Bronco]

True, but that's irrelavent to your point that you tried to make in your earlier post. (That's it's morally virtuous to consider someone innocent until proven guilty.) I just gave an obvious example where it wouldn't be morally virtuous.

Well again...that's why witnesses don't judge cases. By being a witness you are bascially in a different bubble. Bottom line...it's ultimately the difference between a proper justice system and a less than fair justice system.

[AtlantaBronco]

All NFL players have the following in their contracts: "... if player has engaged in personal conduct reasonably judged by Club to adversely affect or reflect on Club, then Club may terminate this contract."

Vick could very easily be cut by the Falcons. He would be able to file a grievance and have an arbitrator decide whether the club acted reasonably.

[NaptownChief]

There's no moral imperative that I should consider someone innocent until proven guilty (by our judicial system). If I witness someone shooting someone else, I would be morally bankrupt if I didn't consider that person guilty.



Exactly....From a legal rights perspective we are all innocent until proven guilty but that is where it stops.

The reality is you are guilty the moment you do something wrong....If you cheat on your spouse you are an adulter the moment you do it....not the moment you get caught and convicted.

[Garcia Bronco]

Exactly....From a legal rights perspective we are all innocent until proven guilty but that is where it stops.

The reality is you are guilty the moment you do something wrong....If you cheat on your spouse you are an adulter the moment you do it....not the moment you get caught and convicted.

But to make that claim as a 3rd party you would have to know the truth. Of course the accused knows whether or not they are actually guilty.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I think it's more of a financial risk to keep him around. It's one thing if you are talking about a consistently good team cutting a winner like Brady or Manning. It's another when you are talking about a mediocre at best team like the Falcons and Michael Vick. The team is not all of a sudden going to lose games they would normally win because you are cutting Vick, so they won't lose money there. They WILL lose money on jersey sales by cutting him, but that is going to happen regardless of whether or not they cut him. Nobody is going to buy those things now even if he remains on the team. The damage is done.

Where is the financial risk in cutting him?If they cut him they lose 12 million on the salary cap in 2007 and 15 million in 2008.

[Garcia Bronco]

If they cut him they lose 12 million on the salary cap in 2007 and 15 million in 2008.

And that is probably why he still with the team.

[NaptownChief]

But to make that claim as a 3rd party you would have to know the truth. Of course the accused knows whether or not they are actually guilty.


Sure.....I'm guessing the Feds involved with the investigation also probably know given all the research they have done however.

It's kinda like you being home with your dog and you come downstairs and see a couch cushion chewed up. You didn't see him do it and he might want his day in court before you beat his butt however there is plenty enough evidence for you to issue a summary judgement. He might want to sell the story that a neighborhood dog came through the pet door and did it but you have been around the block enough times to make a fair conclusion.

Given the information in that indictment we can all do the same.

[Bladerunner]

I think the Falcons should suspend him with pay. To put him on the field is tacit support of an alleged dog-killer, illegal gambler, racketeer, and specifically low human being with respect to animal abuse. To fire him outright is risking exposure to embarassment if Vick were to be acquitted of all charges (maybe...unless the facts in the indictment can be shown to be fabricated, it's likely he would remain a blight on the Falcons)...

they should suspend him, and then the minute he is found guilty, cut him and attempt to recover as much money from him as possible...

[NaptownChief]

they should suspend him, and then the minute he is found guilty, cut him and attempt to recover as much money from him as possible...



I would agree that would be the best decision from a public relations standpoint and the best decision from a business standpoint to increase their chances of recovering a good portion of that signing bonus.

[Garcia Bronco]

Sure.....I'm guessing the Feds involved with the investigation also probably know given all the research they have done however.

It's kinda like you being home with your dog and you come downstairs and see a couch cushion chewed up. You didn't see him do it and he might want his day in court before you beat his butt however there is plenty enough evidence for you to issue a summary judgement. He might want to sell the story that a neighborhood dog came through the pet door and did it but you have been around the block enough times to make a fair conclusion.

Given the information in that indictment we can all do the same.

I disagree. First the analogy doesn't translate to humans and our system of government. Second, we are free to draw conclusions, but if we want to live up to the ideals of our government we should consider them innocent until proven guilty. I read about all 18 pages of the indictment and the acts described made my stomach turn. While I have no affection for that breed of dog, the idea of them lauding the ultimate over those dogs, killing them, and turning them on each other is beyond my comprehesion. I just didn't grow up nor have I been exposed to that kind of culture. I hope they are innocent, but it doesn't sound like they are, but if they are guilty I hope that God gives them the same treatment in kind.

[Garcia Bronco]

I would agree that would be the best decision from a public relations standpoint and the best decision from a business standpoint to increase their chances of recovering a good portion of that signing bonus.

I wonder if the CBA let's them do that.

[Bladerunner]

I wonder if the CBA let's them do that.

I actually don't think it does, but it would only matter if Vick challenged the decision. If he did that, then the Falcons could cut him with some plausible deniability that they were being overly hasty.

[Taco John]

Innocent until proven guilty applies to the government. Businesses can make summary judgements based on what's best for their business.

The way I see it, any player under a federal indictment of any kind should be suspended indefinitely, until he is cleared of charges and no longer a threat to the product.

[Garcia Bronco]

I actually don't think it does, but it would only matter if Vick challenged the decision. If he did that, then the Falcons could cut him with some plausible deniability that they were being overly hasty.

I think because of Owens, suspensions are addressed different than before in the CBA, but I don't remember exactly what I read.

[NaptownChief]

I disagree. First the analogy doesn't translate to humans and our system of government. Second, we are free to draw conclusions, but if we want to live up to the ideals of our government we should consider them innocent until proven guilty.



The only people that have to live up to that standard is the judicial system. The rest of us have the ability to use our heads and use good judgement to make a decision.

[Hotrod]

The only people that have to live up to that standard is the judicial system. The rest of us have the ability to use our heads and use good judgement to make a decision.

I would go more with "right" then "ability" thou

[NaptownChief]

I wonder if the CBA let's them do that.



I would think so...Philly did it with T.O. and TB did it with Keyshawn. Granted I don't think either team went after the signing bonus so that might make it different but they could certainly slap the suspension with pay on him right away.

[NaptownChief]

I would go more with "right" then "ability" thou



True....very true.

[Garcia Bronco]

The only people that have to live up to that standard is the judicial system. The rest of us have the ability to use our heads and use good judgement to make a decision.

And you could be wrong and you would convict a man that was innocent. Not very...honorable for lack of a better term.

[NaptownChief]

And you could be wrong and you would convict a man that was innocent. Not very...honorable for lack of a better term.


Well the judicial system takes the wait and see approach and they still convict innocent people on occasion. I'm glad our judicial system is that way cause taking a man's freedom is as serious as it gets....However, taking a person's reputation isn't as serious as losing their freedom and thus we don't need to be quite as cautious in the court of public opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way saying we should always be lightening quick to judgement. Even in the court of public opinion I think people should be fair and not rush to judgment at the first sign of something negative cause often times that is wrong. But their is a big difference between drawing a conclusion immediately after hearing nothing more than a person was arrested without any facts as many folks do like Tank Johnson's DUI and drawing a conclusion after a person has been federally indicted with all the publically known facts as we have in this situation. Big difference.

[Garcia Bronco]

Well the judicial system takes the wait and see approach and they still convict innocent people on occasion. I'm glad our judicial system is that way cause taking a man's freedom is as serious as it gets....However, taking a person's reputation isn't as serious as losing their freedom and thus we don't need to be quite as cautious in the court of public opinion.



IMO someone's reputation and their freedom can be the samething.

[Master___Pain]

If Vick had any kind of moral fiber, he'd ask for a leave of absence/sabbatical/whatever you want to call it and let the Falcons move on. I can't see any possible way he's going to be a benefit to the Falcons this season.There's going to be a media and protester circus every where he goes and you can't have that around the practice facility or the locker room. His teammates are going to really resent him, if they don't already and he will not be able to just show up like Kobe did and play when Kobe was going through his legal hearings.

(Yes, I am fully aware that this is the least likely scenario for Vick)

[Northman]

Aren't you the guy that has been defending these Vick POS's with the aid of all your local "intimate knowledge"?

Yea, its really ashame that Garcia cant be more objective when it comes to his alma mater. Garcia thought it was great when Marcus stomped down on Elivis leg in the bowl game last year. Unbelievable.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Nike announces that they will not release Vicks new shoe in August as planned (per ESPN just now). PETA Announces it will hold demonstrations outside NFL offices Friday (for not suspending Vick).

[Northman]

I agree. After reading the actual charges agaisnt him, it's hard to believe he would be innocent or his story, but again he'll get his day in court.


Yea, OJ had his day in court too. Guess he was innocent huh? LOL

[Northman]

They were talking today on D.C Radio that when the Feds get involved and indict someone they usually go to prison 99% of the time. That ratio does not bold well for Vick.

[NaptownChief]

IMO someone's reputation and their freedom can be the samething.


I certainly can't speak for anybody but myself but I will gladly take a beat up reputation and the ability to go play golf, drink beers with buddies, take my dog for a walk, watch football games etc.etc over being locked behind bars every day of the week.

[Garcia Bronco]

Yea, its really ashame that Garcia cant be more objective when it comes to his alma mater. Garcia thought it was great when Marcus stomped down on Elivis leg in the bowl game last year. Unbelievable.

I never said that. I was joking around with people about there being no proof that Marcus did it. It was actually funny.

[Garcia Bronco]

Yea, OJ had his day in court too. Guess he was innocent huh? LOL

Yeah...that wasn't a Federal charge though.

[Master___Pain]

So if you (any OM poster) were one Vicks teammates, would you distance your self from this or support your teammate?

[Atwater His Ass]

It comes to a man. Vick is going to deny it. You have to look at the facts and judge for yourself. There will be guys that think he's guilty and guys that don't. That is a locker room divided no matter how you spin it which is going to mean team strife and no chance in hell at winning anything significant.

[Master___Pain]

Personally, I'd be giving the media the "No comment" treatment, no matter my true feelings about the situation.

[NaptownChief]

So if you (any OM poster) were one Vicks teammates, would you distance your self from this or support your teammate?



I would ignore him and the topic publically. I sure as hell wouldn't support him for those kind of deeds but I wouldn't make a scene of the fact that he is a big bag of excrement as he seems to be doing just fine on his own at that. In a business like the NFL where image puts money in your pocket I would just keep my mouth shut cause no matter what you say there will be people that take offense and nothing to be gained by commenting.

[Master___Pain]

I would ignore him and the topic publically. I sure as hell wouldn't support him for those kind of deeds but I wouldn't make a scene of the fact that he is a big bag of excrement as he seems to be doing just fine on his own at that. In a business like the NFL where image puts money in your pocket I would just keep my mouth shut cause no matter what you say there will be people that take offense and nothing to be gained by commenting.
Nail on the head there Nappy. You said it as well, and better, than I could have*



*An absolute first, you said someting I not only agree with but you said it so well.:thumbsup: ;D

[REB]

...

[footstepsfrom#27]

Your pandering of the ignorant in the name of skin color is beyond predictable and beyond comical.
Show me where I said the Feds were prosecuting Vick because he's Black.

[Garcia Bronco]

Show me where I said the Feds were prosecuting Vick because he's Black.

It's amazing how people will try to put words in your mouth or attach meanings to posts that weren't even there. It's a problem with their perception I suppose. Sometimes people just feel threatened for no good reason.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Show me where I said the Feds were prosecuting Vick because he's Black.Uh, you didn't quite get it. That's not what he was referring to.
It's amazing how people will try to put words in your mouth or attach meanings to posts that weren't even there. It's a problem with their perception I suppose. Sometimes people just feel threatened for no good reason.You obviously didn't get it either.

[Garcia Bronco]

Uh, you didn't quite get it. That's not what he was referring to.
You obviously didn't get it either.

Well golly....was I talking about you?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well golly....was I talking about you?You apparently didn't know what you were talking about.

[NaptownChief]

Show me where I said the Feds were prosecuting Vick because he's Black.

I never implied that....In this case you are excusing the very poor job being done by the Surrey prosecutor. But I can see how easily you could have been confused by my comment because you are always so busy doing exactly what I said that it would probably be tough for you to figure out which situation I was speaking about.

[Garcia Bronco]

You apparently didn't know what you were talking about.

I just find it surprising that I replied to FS27, and you assumed it was about yourself.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I just find it surprising that I replied to FS27, and you assumed it was about yourself.Not hardly. You tried to get 27s back while condemning Naptown when neither you nor 27 had a clue of what he meant.

[Garcia Bronco]

Not hardly. You tried to get 27s back while condemning Naptown when neither you nor 27 had a clue of what he meant.

My comment was not contingent on FS27's retort to anyone else. On that note...I do happen to think FS27 is a very intelligent poster. More so than most. :)

[Spider]

Vick is innocent ...........

[footstepsfrom#27]

I never implied that....In this case you are excusing the very poor job being done by the Surrey prosecutor.
Originally Posted by NaptownChief
Your pandering of the ignorant in the name of skin color is beyond predictable and beyond comical.
OK...so you're saying I'm "pandering of the ignorant in the name of skin color" ...whatever that means...is because of me "excusing the very poor job being done by the Surrey (sic) prosecutor".

I never did that either. I haven't even mentioned race in here...YOU have.

In fact I had no idea he was black until somebody else posted that information in here. The fact is, you have no idea whether he's doing a poor job or not but your hatred for Vick leads you to see race issues whether they exist or not. Are you a criminal investigator or associated with a DA's office? How would you know whether his office is doing a bad job? What facts do you have to back that up? I posted earlier...and nobody responded...the FEDS THEMSELVES took an entire month between visits to the Vick property. Surry County has 6,800 people in it. How do you suppose the resources of that office compare with those of the feds?

Here's a hint; they don't.

[NaptownChief]

The fact is, you have no idea whether he's doing a poor job or not but your hatred for Vick leads you to see race issues whether they exist or not.


That fact that he was out making public statements that there doesn't appear to be enough evidence to file charges tells me all I need to know that he was doing a piss poor job after seeing the evidence the feds got.

And why would you imply my hatred for Vick is racially based? Do you think for a second I would like a herpes infested, dog killing white guy?

[rugbythug]

That fact that he was out making public statements that there doesn't appear to be enough evidence to file charges tells me all I need to know that he was doing a piss poor job after seeing the evidence the feds got.

And why would you imply my hatred for Vick is racially based? Do you think for a second I would like a herpes infested, dog killing white guy?


Not That I give a crap but much of this has to do with his traveling out of state and eye witness accounts that the locals might not have access to.

[NaptownChief]

Not That I give a crap but much of this has to do with his traveling out of state and eye witness accounts that the locals might not have access to.



Call me crazy but I think a couple truck loads of dog fighting gear and 60 plus badly scared living dogs and 30 plus dead carcasses on the property would not have most DA's making public statements that there "probably isn't enough" to file any charges.....call me crazy.

[Garcia Bronco]

Call me crazy but I think a couple truck loads of dog fighting gear and 60 plus badly scared living dogs and 30 plus dead carcasses on the property would not have most DA's making public statements that there "probably isn't enough" to file any charges.....call me crazy.

You're crazy. but for other reasons. :)

[footstepsfrom#27]

That fact that he was out making public statements that there doesn't appear to be enough evidence to file charges tells me all I need to know that he was doing a piss poor job after seeing the evidence the feds got.
Let's look at WHAT has actually transpired...and WHEN it transpired...to see if you're telling the truth here. But first...read this: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2888085

Here's a list of statements in this article that's dated May 31st, only 6 days after the police raided Vick's property, and it references statements Poindexter made the day before on the 30th, 5 days after the raid...this is also 2 days after the Surry County authorities obtained their warrant to search the property but declined based on the language of the document...so they are responding to what they had at that point based on the initial police raid only, not the information obtained by the Feds with their own warrant over a month later..

6 statements summarize this report:

1) Two independent sources who were NOT Poindester connected with the investigation state that the evidence at that point might not be enough to convict Vick, and that more investigative work is needed. Both sources were reluctant to discuss the evidence in detail. But one said that, beyond forensic evidence and also the dog-training paraphernalia that has been shown in various television reports, there are also "some documents" that suggest dog fighting was taking place. Queried about the documents, which were seized from the property, the source would say only that although "there is paperwork" that includes Vick's name or what are said to be references to him, it appears none bears his signature.

"There are some dots," the source said, "but it's putting them all in a straight line that's been a challenge. There's a lot of stuff to look at and consider. But preponderance doesn't always equal proof, so they're trying to dot I's and cross T's."

2) Poindexter is reported to be working with representatives from the US Department of Agriculture, the federal agency charged with prosecuting dog fighting, as early as May 21st...4 days BEFORE the police raid the property.

3) Asked whether there was evidence that Vick was involved in dog fighting, Poindester said "Yes" and confirmed that informants had voluntarily come forward to reveal this.

4) Poindexter states that he's convinced dog fighting took place on the property and says, "If he did anything, he won't get away with it, if we can prove it. But it's not easy," Poindexter said. "That's why we're moving carefully, slowly. We're trying to build a strong case."

5) Poindexter explains WHY he's concerned that they move slowly: Poindexter referenced a 2000 case that involved dog fighting and that was dismissed because of Fourth Amendment issues. He said he will forward affidavits to the state attorney's appellate division to have officials there review it in terms of its admissibility for court. He cited the same Fourth Amendment issues as the reason he did not permit officials to move forward with a warrant to search the Vick property earlier this week.

6) The Atlanta Journal states that Poindexter is performing due dilligence on the background of one of two witnesses who have come forward.

So ONE DAY AFTER Poindexter declines to use the warrant he had, he states that there is evidence of dog fighting, that people have come forward voluntarily to report it, that they don't yet have anything conclusively tied to Vick, and that they're moving carefully due to 4th Amendment issues that caused another case in 2000 to be thrown out. This report is confirmed by another source familiar with the investigation, and Poindexter is also working with the feds from the USDA at this point.

Now look at the timeline of events: http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/nfl/article.jsp?content=20070606_165625_4748

May 21-Poindexter meets with feds from the US Dept. of Agriculture
May 25-Police raid Vick's home
May 27-Informant claims Vick is involved in dog fighting
May 29-Surry County authorities obtain a warrant giving them permission to search "on the grounds and in buildings", but it doesn't allow them to dig.
May 30-Poindexter explains the evidence and need to be careful based on 4th Amendment concerns damaging another case in 2000
June 4-Vick's house is robbed of big screen TV's and furniture
June 6-Sheriff Harold Brown states frustration with the pace of the investigation but says, "I know it's taking some time, but we're just being careful. We've got to make sure we've got everything in order and that the information that they're getting is reliable," Brown said. "It's frustrating because people want you to prosecute before you even get all the evidence.
June 7-Federal officals raid Vick's property, only 12 days after the initial police raid and the same day the previous warrant for the Surry County DA to search but not dig has expired. Poindexter says he found out about the feds warrant the same time they executed it. He's quoted in 10 sentences and in frustration primarily questions whether the feds want the investigation because of Vick's celebrity status. He mentions race 1 time and says he doesn't know if that's part of their motivation or not.
June 8-Poindexter says his team including Sheriff Brown will meet soon to review their evidence and describes the statements attributed to him the day before to a "missunderstanding", and aknowledges the feds are conducting a "paralell investigation". He does not mention race or other ulterior motives by the feds again.
July 6-Federal officials execute their own warrant...ONE MONTH after their initial raid on the Vick property.
July 17-Vick is indicted by a federal grand jury.

So basically, Poindexter...was cooperating with and working alongside the USDA officials who have the fed's responsibility for investigating dog fighting from the start, stated multiple times after the first police raid that there was evidence of dog fighting on Vick's property, also stated he was concerned about violating 4th Amendment concerns and jeopardizing the case so was moving slowly, declined to use his warrant because of those concerns, and had his investigation taken over on the same day his warrant expired...just 9 days after he got it, expressed some emotional responses to having the feds storm into the middle of his investigation, including one vague statement about race and several about celebrity status...and then retracted his words the following day by saying it was a missunderstanding. The feds take 30 days to obtain their warrant...25 days longer than Poindexter took to get his.

For this he's been branded a racist, incompetent and accused of trying to let Vick get off the hook because he's black.

Your statements are BS and the facts prove it. As for race being the reason you hate Vick...I never said it was so don't put words in my mouth.

[cutthemdown]

Did you even read the indictment? It was fairly detailed for a indictment unlike the Duke case.

Maximus can't read bro cmon!!!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Let's look at WHAT has actually transpired...and WHEN it transpired...to see if you're telling the truth here.

The red type is what sells me every time.

[orange 4 life]

I know you realize that he hasn't actually been convicted of any wrong doing yet. There is nothing wrong with waiting for due process.

in many cases sure, but lets examine what we KNOW here.
there is enough here ALREADY to anger most people, and there is enough ALREADY for a judgement of guilt (on some level) to be made.

there are UNDISPUTED facts in this case that make it very different from OJ, duke lacrosse, rae carruth, etc.

it WAS vicks home. there WERE over 60 dogs found alive. vick DID start the kennel. there WERE over 30 dogs found buried on the property. the house WAS sold for half its value when this started.
those are UNDISPUTED facts.

regardless of the outcome of a trial, its bordering on comedy (or more aptly "tragedy") to think that vick NEVER attended these fights and had NO knowledge of the actions taking place, but even if you DO believe that, the facts i listed are still UNDISPUTED.

thats enough in my book.

get rid of the clown and THEN let "due process" decide what to do with him afterwards.

[orange 4 life]

I wish they would lock the POS in a cage with a few of those dogs. They would do more than lift their legs.

yeah, they would lick him to death.

thats what makes this whole thing even harder to swallow.
most of those dogs would rather die than hurt a human. after being forced to fight (and all the other gruesome stuff leading up to it) the dogs go to their owners with a look of love and trust.
they may be "mans best friend", but we're sure as hell not theirs.

[NaptownChief]

For this he's been branded a racist, incompetent and accused of trying to let Vick get off the hook because he's black.

Your statements are BS and the facts prove it. As for race being the reason you hate Vick...I never said it was so don't put words in my mouth.


You are such a blowhard of so little substance. Poindexter was the one playing the race card when the Feds got involved with the following comment:

"There's a larger thing here, and it has nothing to do with any breach of protocol," Poindexter said. "There's something awful going on here. I don't know if it's racial. I don't know what it is."


And back around April 24th Poindexter was the one who was publicly saying they didn't have enough evidence to file charges against anybody. If they had not concluded their investigation he shouldn't be making any statement other than it is an ongoing investigation. But an expert on the topic pretty much called his statement complete bunk at the time as others had been convicted on less evidence:

Read the article if you would like:

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=125291&ran=186521&tref=po


So in summary he is publicly stating there doesn't appear to be a case when clearly there was and he was trying to imply the race card because the Feds were getting involved in the beginning.

The guy is either a fool or corrupt. And your excusing his poor work tells us what you are...but most already knew that.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You are such a blowhard of so little substance. Poindexter was the one playing the race card when the Feds got involved with the following comment:

"There's a larger thing here, and it has nothing to do with any breach of protocol," Poindexter said. "There's something awful going on here. I don't know if it's racial. I don't know what it is."


And back around April 24th Poindexter was the one who was publicly saying they didn't have enough evidence to file charges against anybody. If they had not concluded their investigation he shouldn't be making any statement other than it is an ongoing investigation. But an expert on the topic pretty much called his statement complete bunk at the time as others had been convicted on less evidence:

Read the article if you would like:

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=125291&ran=186521&tref=po


So in summary he is publicly stating there doesn't appear to be a case when clearly there was and he was trying to imply the race card because the Feds were getting involved in the beginning.

The guy is either a fool or corrupt. And your excusing his poor work tells us what you are...but most already knew that.
You're a nitwit. The same article you posted states that the guy who owns a kennel license for the property could not be found, which is obviously something they were looking at as necessary. I notice you conveniently ignored the 4th ammendment issue raised by the DA as the reason for him proceedingly slowly. You also ignored the fact that the feds took 25 days longer than Poindexter to get their warrant. I'm sure some generic "dog fighting" expert knows plenty about constitutional law right?

You're the one playing the race card.

[NaptownChief]

You're a nitwit. The same article you posted states that the guy who owns a kennel license for the property could not be found, which is obviously something they were looking at as necessary. I notice you conveniently ignored the 4th ammendment issue raised by the DA as the reason for him proceedingly slowly. You also ignored the fact that the feds took 25 days longer than Poindexter to get their warrant. I'm sure some generic "dog fighting" expert knows plenty about constitutional law right?

You're the one playing the race card.



Who cares that he finds the person that holds the kennel license? That just means the investigation should be ongoing and in zero way should have him making public statements that there isn't enough evidence to bring charges when he hasn't even gathered information from all parties involved.

The irony in all of this is you are defending his work despite taking him so long to get to filing charges yet I believe you were the one arguing with Tredici that Mexico's attempt to sell the house shouldn't matter cause all search and investigation would be complete by that point.

And why do you make an issue of the timing of him getting a warrant? What does that have to do with anything when he didn't even execute the first warrant and clearly wasn't able to come up with anything he deemed worthy of charges when he did? How is that in some way something worthy of defending his work?

And he clearly was the one playing the race card when the Feds got involved and if you can't grasp that then you are dumber than most people on this board already believe.

Go ahead and ramble on with another three or four 2000 word posts of BS that virtually nobody will bother to read if it makes you feel good.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Who cares that he finds the person that holds the kennel license? That just means the investigation should be ongoing and in zero way should have him making public statements that there isn't enough evidence to bring charges when he hasn't even gathered information from all parties involved.
Did you even read the linked articles? Obviously not since he repeatedly stated that he believed there was evidence dog fighting had taken place. His only statements about evidence had to do with him looking for MORE evidence, not trying to delay the investigation. Did you notice that two OTHER independent sources close to the investigation...probably those with the USDA since that's who he was working with...ALSO said they needed more evidence. Are they racists too? He stated that a similar investigation was destroyed in 2000 because of 4th ammendment concerns being overlooked in the pursuit of the evidence. Was he lying? Can you prove it? Of course you can't.
The irony in all of this is you are defending his work despite taking him so long to get to filing charges yet I believe you were the one arguing with Tredici that Mexico's attempt to sell the house shouldn't matter cause all search and investigation would be complete by that point.
Who are you to say what's to long? Are you a prosecutor? The feds stepped in only 9 days after he had his warrant, and he stated that in the mean time he had forwarded his affidavits to the states Attorney General's office appelate division so they could review them for admissability in court. If he'd charged in recklessly and got his case kicked out of court as the 2000 case was would that make you happy? Second, my argument was based on a delay of ONE ENTIRE MONTH during which time the feds failed to obtain the warrant they needed. 30 days is more than 9 days in case you didn't know that...so yes, the feds were the ones who wasted time going back, not Poindexter. Poindexter obtained his warrant quickly, saw problems with the way it was worded, drew upon his prior experience with another similar case being thrown out over constitutional issues, forwarded the information to the Virginia AG's office for their review, and basically was playing by the rules when the feds stepped in.
And why do you make an issue of the timing of him getting a warrant? What does that have to do with anything when he didn't even execute the first warrant and clearly wasn't able to come up with anything he deemed worthy of charges when he did? How is that in some way something worthy of defending his work?
He didn't execute it because he wasn't sure it would pass constitutional muster, hence his reason for forwarding information to the state's AG's office, and just because he hadn't filed charges yet does not mean he had no evidence. It simply means what the OTHER INDEPENDENT SOURCES connected to the investigation also concluded...that they needed more.
And he clearly was the one playing the race card when the Feds got involved and if you can't grasp that then you are dumber than most people on this board already believe.
He made a single statement under pressure when confronted with something he didn't expect...the feds stepping into his investigation. He also retracted his statements the next day, and since you have no idea who the people are that are involved in the federal investigation you don't know if there's any valildity to what he said or not. The point is he didn't pursue that any further, but the reason you'd love to paint this guy as a racist speaks volumes about who and what you are.
Go ahead and ramble on with another three or four 2000 word posts of BS that virtually nobody will bother to read if it makes you feel good.
I'm sure I've taxed your feeble reading skills more than they can handle already...but thanks for admitting you didn't even read the information I posted. I guess I can add lazy to stupid now in describing you.

Poindexter claims he was moving slowly to avoid treading on 4th Amendment issues related to illegal search and seizure that destroyed a similar case.

Can you prove he wasn't?

[NaptownChief]

I'm sure I've taxed your feeble reading skills more than they can handle already...but thanks for admitting you didn't even read the information I posted. I guess I can add lazy to stupid now in describing you.





You can add whatever you like but the mark of intelligence is being able to make a point in a concise fashion....needless to say we all know where you stand in that regard. You should change your user name to Babbling Blowhard#27

[That One Guy]

I believe what I read was that the packets were sent higher by Poindexter to see if there was evidence for charges, not for them to approve his warrant. There's nothing to ever say that a 2nd warrant existed or was ever going to be pursued.

Also, I may be misunderstanding what Footsteps is getting at but the Feds executed the first warrant and then a month later executed a second one.. I don't get the comments about them taking too long. That sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

[TomServo]

Holy Crap all this stuff happened! dogs fought. dogs were executed. and Vicks was involved. All this crap happened! and Vick was involved.
all this "boy will be boys" crap is out the window. John Elway went into the car biz and sold it for 1999 dollars for 30 mil!

[fontaine]

But if he's innocent and they fired him over nothing, then they expose themselves to risk from a financial perspective. I've seen companies that did what your are talking about take it on the chin because they jumped to conclusions. I also feel confident the NFL has done it's own investigating, and might even be th eones that pulled the feds in. There is nothing wrong with waiting for a trial to conclude before handing out additional punishment and/or termination. Even the commish agrees in this instance. I also feel confident that if you were accused of a crime, you would want the same treatment of due process.

Except you're flat out wrong.

It's specifically written into Vick's contract that the Falcon's can go after his signing bonus and fine him if he misses practice in the year or summer camp.

Regardless of whether he is innocent or guilty, the Falcon's retain the right to fire him based on him missing time (due to court hearings/procedures etc). If Vick has a problem with that, he should have made his feelings clear on that issue instead of signing the contract and collecting one of richest deals in NFL history.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Except you're flat out wrong.

It's specifically written into Vick's contract that the Falcon's can go after his signing bonus and fine him if he misses practice in the year or summer camp.

Regardless of whether he is innocent or guilty, the Falcon's retain the right to fire him based on him missing time (due to court hearings/procedures etc). If Vick has a problem with that, he should have made his feelings clear on that issue instead of signing the contract and collecting one of richest deals in NFL history.The Falcons have no intention of firing (cutting) Vick. It would be stupid if they did.

[Rigs11]

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070723/070723_protest_hmed_10a.hmedium.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/football/nfl/07/20/bc.fbn.peta.vick.nfl.ap/p1_vick_protest_PETA.jpg

[Bronco_Beerslug]

PETA, with over 1.6 million members has incredible power as the NFL has seen so far.


http://www.peta.org/buttons/410x195_Vick_suspend.jpg (http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/afalcons_vick_2)

[TailgateNut]

Here's my 5 cents worth. I've been a dog owner all my life. I bred German Shepherds way back when....and I can assure you that ANY dog can be bred to be a killer or a giant lap dog. It's up to the owner and the amount of love he gives the animal. I currently own a Rotty/Shepherd mix who will, if you allow him, lick you to death;D
Anyone who trains dogs to kill other dogs for entertainment needs to be locked up. PERIOD!
Anyone who kills dogs just "because", needs to be locked up. PERIOD!
Anyone who bets on these dog fights should also be charged and hauled in front of the judge and jury, because in my opinion, they are as responsible as the owners.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Sack Vick
Whether Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick is found guilty of dogfighting or not, he is only one person within a much larger struggle. The real front lines in the war against dogfighting exist in our local communities, and this war is being fought every day by animal protection groups, community leaders, and law enforcement officials. Please call on people not only to condemn the NFL superstar for his alleged participation in this illegal activity but also to work to end dogfighting in our local communities. Read here (http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/afalcons_vick_2) to find out more about this issue and how you can help. <!-- ### Items ### --> <table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="8" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="center" valign="top">http://images.cafepress.com/product/152437929v9_150x150_Front.JPG (http://www.cafepress.com/petastore.152437929)

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[Garcia Bronco]

PETA, with over 1.6 million members has incredible power as the NFL has seen so far.


http://www.peta.org/buttons/410x195_Vick_suspend.jpg (http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/afalcons_vick_2)

And PETA has killed more animals illegally than anyone we've talked about.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And PETA has killed more animals illegally than anyone we've talked about.How's that?

[That One Guy]

Per PFT:

POSTED 6:23 p.m. EDT; UPDATED 6:34 p.m. EDT, July 23, 2007
VICK TO TAKE LEAVE OF ABSENCEby Michael David Smith
Fox 5 in Atlanta reports that Michael Vick will take a leave of absence (http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3856472&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1).
So far this has not been reported anywhere else. The entirety of the Fox 5 report is, "The NFL says that Michael Vick will be taking a leave of absence."

[Northman]

Smartest thing to happen for Vick this offseason.

[Garcia Bronco]

How's that?

Look it up.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Look it up.You posted it, link to it (the illegal part).

[epicSocialism4tw]

I hope Michael Vick dies, just I hope anybody who engages in this type of barbarism dies.
The lowlifes who minimize and tacitly defend this type of behavior are punished enough by waking up in their own miserable skin every day.

Yeah. That's it. Wish death on the guy. That has to be the most irresponsible statement on this thread.

Get some help, buddy.

[Master___Pain]

If Vick had any kind of moral fiber, he'd ask for a leave of absence/sabbatical/whatever you want to call it and let the Falcons move on. I can't see any possible way he's going to be a benefit to the Falcons this season.There's going to be a media and protester circus every where he goes and you can't have that around the practice facility or the locker room. His teammates are going to really resent him, if they don't already and he will not be able to just show up like Kobe did and play when Kobe was going through his legal hearings.

(Yes, I am fully aware that this is the least likely scenario for Vick)

Well, I was not too far off. Of course Vick did not do it on his on volition, but the end result is the same.

[NaptownChief]

Yeah. That's it. Wish death on the guy. That has to be the most irresponsible statement on this thread.

Get some help, buddy.



While you are getting help for him go ahead and get some for me cause I wish him dead also.

[epicSocialism4tw]

While you are getting help for him go ahead and get some for me cause I wish him dead also.

Stay classy.

[TDmvp]

Peta aint perfect "like anything is" and they do kill animals ... in different ways than dog fighting circles ...

Penn and Teller %ull$hit on peta if you get a chance heres the whole show ...
great show on peta ... not talked about much its like 20 mins ..

part one
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part 2
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part 3
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[-Slap-]

Yeah. That's it. Wish death on the guy. That has to be the most irresponsible statement on this thread.

Get some help, buddy.

It would be great if all 40,000 (estimated) dogfighters in the United States dropped dead tomorrow. I'd walk Petey the pitbull by to piss on their hillbilly, gangbanger and cholo graves. Apparently you believe someone who would electrocute a puppy or slam her to the cement until she's dead is an individual who's worth keeping around.

[epicSocialism4tw]

It would be great if all 40,000 (estimated) dogfighters in the United States dropped dead tomorrow. I'd walk Petey the pitbull by to piss on their hillbilly, gangbanger and cholo graves. Apparently you believe someone who would electrocute a puppy or slam her to the cement until she's dead is an individual who's worth keeping around.

He's worth saving, just like every other sinner out there including you and I.

There is no excuse for his behavior, and when convicted, he will receive some sort of justice. Bringing a village full of angry torch-wielding citizens primed for lynching and burning to his door isnt the way to exact justice.

[TDmvp]

OFF WIth their HEADS !!!!http://www.thomasvideo.com/events/images/5-heads.jpg