If Hitler had a previous life, was he Brigham Young?

[freak6]

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 10:110)
Lest anyone think Young was here merely giving us his "personal opinion" as some LDS apologists would like to maintain, he also says:

"I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life...If there is any elder here, or any member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason." (Brigham Young -Journal of Discourses, 16:161).
Elswhere, Young wrote:

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture" (Journal of Discourses (vol 13, page 95),1870)
Again, in 1854 he writes:

"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity" (Journal of Discourses 2:143).
Bill McKeever cites on his "Mormon Research Ministries" website:


"Joseph Fielding Smith stated, "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race" (The Way to Perfection, p.101).
and again:

"The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom..." (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

How is there an American "University" named after him?

Brainwashing.

How did that University do a complete DNA study completey disproving it's own religious basis, and yet it still survives?

Thorough brainwashing.

The founder made up his own story by making up his own story from some hieroglyphs he purchased, of course he had no idea what they really meant and he twisted some tail and called it the book of Abraham, even though the hieroglyphs tell of no such story whatsoever.

As the most easily debunked and ridiculous form of christianity so absurd they actually proved the basis for thier own existence to be a complete hoax and lie, it stands as a great example of how poisonous religion truly is.

[Garcia Bronco]

What about your system of beliefs?

I don't know about the founding of mormonism, but I do know many that have done amazing misson work to help others get their lives right. So the results are pretty good in that regard.

[freak6]

What about your system of beliefs?

I don't know about the founding of mormonism, but I do know many that have done amazing misson work to help others get their lives right. So the results are pretty good in that regard.
1st post already goes into making it personal...lmao

Granted, I think the missionary work they do is AWESOME!!! Thankless, and they do great work around the world. It is inspirational stuff to say the least.

My system of belief isn't the topic.

The topic is Brigham Young and his racist diatribes, and what does it say about that faith.

Additionally, the University founded in his his name disproved the basis for it's own existence.

[Garcia Bronco]

Well it was the times. Ideas are typically the result of nurture, we shouldn't let socialized behavior of the past be the driving force of how we deal with things in the present.

[Atlas]

I doubt it Freak but if he was reincarnated I know who he is.

[freak6]

Well it was the times. Ideas are typically the result of nurture, we shouldn't let socialized behavior of the past be the driving force of how we deal with things in the present.

Not my point.

The question is, if Hitler had a previous life, was he Brigham Young, and the entire faith is so brazenly absurd, <b>they even disproved the basis for thier own existence</b>, yet still they exist.

How mind boggling is that?

It is INSANE!!!

Read what Brigham Young taught as the word of god, and comment on him.

[Smiling Assassin27]

Just when I thought threads couldn't get any dumber...Raise your standards, boys and girls...

[Bronco Bob]

Well it was the times. Ideas are typically the result of nurture, we shouldn't let socialized behavior of the past be the driving force of how we deal with things in the present.

True. Most Protestant sects at the time had the same attitude towards
the races, especially in the South. I'd imagine a quick check of names
of colleges in the US would turn up quite a few named after racists
that were strongly against the mixing of the races.
Comparing B Young to Hitler is a bit extreme. Nowhere do I see B Young
calling for the setting up of death camps to exterminate Africans.

[freak6]

True. Most Protestant sects at the time had the same attitude towards
the races, especially in the South. I'd imagine a quick check of names
of colleges in the US would turn up quite a few named after racists
that were strongly against the mixing of the races.
Comparing B Young to Hitler is a bit extreme. Nowhere do I see B Young
calling for the setting up of death camps to exterminate Africans.

Well he is saying that if you mate with a negro, you should be put to death.

How can anyone follow the teachings of this blatant racist?

[freak6]

Just when I thought threads couldn't get any dumber...Raise your standards, boys and girls...

Care to comment on Brigham Young's racism?

How about how BYU themselves did DNA testing disproving the basis for the entire faith itself!

Hilarious!

[freak6]

I think you guys are missing the point...

Brigham Young said he was PREACHING the word of God.

Since this obviously was not the word of God, was he:

A. A liar

B. A liar and a racist

C. Not preaching the word of god, and a complete hoax

D. All of the above, throwing all of his teachings and claims in doubt, exposing him as a charlatan, just like his predecessor Joseph Smith

If you answered D, you are correct.

[yavoon]

I think you guys are missing the point...

Brigham Young said he was PREACHING the word of God.

Since this obviously was not the word of God, was he:

A. A liar

B. A liar and a racist

C. Not preaching the word of god, and a complete hoax

D. All of the above, throwing all of his teachings and claims in doubt, exposing him as a charlatan, just like his predecessor Joseph Smith

If you answered D, you are correct.

or his predeccessor's predecessor predecessor predecessor the crazy ass who started all this abraham.

promised land?

choosen ppl?

****ing a-hole.

but seriously, attacking mormons:(. I dont know man, seems pretty spiteful.

[freak6]

or his predeccessor's predecessor predecessor predecessor the crazy ass who started all this abraham.

promised land?

choosen ppl?

****ing a-hole.

but seriously, attacking mormons:(. I dont know man, seems pretty spiteful.

I just want to verify that I am not the only person who thinks those people are completely insane.

I'd really really like a mormon to come and explain how they believe in any of it.

[yavoon]

I just want to verify that I am not the only person who thinks those people are completely insane.

I'd really really like a mormon to come and explain how they believe in any of it.

if religion had to be held to account for every racist/supremacist utterance it made there'd be no end. face it, god is on YOUR side. thats just how it works.

I really don't even see much that is special, yah ok he was a racist. woooo. are mormons racist today? I mean if they were still doing crazy **** like tryin to kill darkie then yah I'd be w/ u. but if we're gna attack religion, which is a fine idea. attacking the silly mormons out in utah who do almost nothing to anyone just seems like a waste of time and effort:(.

[yavoon]

is this like a mitt romney thing? send some chain mail around making sure everyone REALLY hates mormons?

[freak6]

attacking the silly mormons out in utah who do almost nothing to anyone just seems like a waste of time and effort:(.

Discrediting the authors of the religion strip away the basis for it's existence though.

That, and the fact BYU did a DNA study that destroyed thier entire myth of the Jaredites and the rest of the bs they <b>teach as fact</b>.

They disproved thier own entire basis for existence!!

[freak6]

is this like a mitt romney thing? send some chain mail around making sure everyone REALLY hates mormons?

I'd love to debate him on this, but no, it isn't about romney.

[gunns]

No, it's Pope Benedict, who thinks their is only one true church, just like Hitler thought there was only one true race.

A lot of what you posted reminds me of the Baptists, a religion that a lot of the Klu Klux Klan members belong to.

[yavoon]

Discrediting the authors of the religion strip away the basis for it's existence though.

That, and the fact BYU did a DNA study that destroyed thier entire myth of the Jaredites and the rest of the bs they <b>teach as fact</b>.

They disproved thier own entire basis for existence!!

if I had a dollar for everytime I disproved religion I'd be talking to u guys from my private yacht.

[freak6]

if I had a dollar for everytime I disproved religion I'd be talking to u guys from my private yacht.

How many times have you gotten a Priest or Pastor to admit that thier god was an impossbility?

I'm batting 1.000 in that regard.

6/6

[DBruleU]

How many times have you gotten a Priest or Pastor to admit that thier god was an impossbility?

I'm batting 1.000 in that regard.

6/6

You crack me up every time you say that.

I'm sure that you have talked to all these pastors, and priests, and somehow the mighty Freak got them to admit their god is fake.

[Bob]

1st post already goes into making it personal...lmao

Granted, I think the missionary work they do is AWESOME!!! Thankless, and they do great work around the world. It is inspirational stuff to say the least.

My system of belief isn't the topic.

The topic is Brigham Young and his racist diatribes, and what does it say about that faith.

Additionally, the University founded in his his name disproved the basis for it's own existence.

Ok, so if Brigham said a series of statements that are offensive, then he said it and will be accountable to God for those things that he said. Likewise he will give an account of the good things that he did during his life, and the many lives that he saved during the Exodus from Illinois. Many dozens died in the track by handcart across the west, and as folks attempted to survive in a dessert it took someone with his great organizational skills to keep folks alive. Once when a large party of Saints were stranded in Wyoming in a blizzard he stopped the meeting they were having (a meeting of all the church members in Utah at the time) and told them to if they were real Latter Day Saints that they needed several horse teams together and by first light to go put their faith into action. He was a strong leader during a time when hundreds of Mormons had been killed in Missouri, and later expelled from Illinois. Keep in mind that many of the persecutions of the early members of the church were by pro-slave folks in Missouri. The majority of the Saints moving into their state were anti-slavery. I guess they were too progressive?

Another question to ask honestly is whether the Mormons as a people were more or less bigoted than the rest of the nation at the time these words were apparently spoken. If various figures of history were lined up and you could hear first hand their views on various subjects from slavery to women’s rights, how many would come out smelling like roses? If you were transported to 100 years from now, how many of your progressive views would be not only antiquated, but evil? Sadly we reflect the times in which we live.

Another interesting story of Bingham was when he found out that a large number (several thousand) US troops were coming to put down a non-existent revolt in Salt Lake. He stood before the Saints and told the people that they were going to fight against the US government and beat them back. In any case the next day he stood before the people and stated that yesterday you heard from Brigham the man, today I will tell you that you must not lift up your arms against this force. The Saints proceeded to bury the Salt Lake City Temple foundation, and plowed it under to appear as a farm field. The troops marched into the city without incident.

I appreciate the fact that created some separation between your feelings toward current members of the church and their efforts to make a positive impact in the world and your hatred of the some of acts of Brigham Young.

So, how to LDS folks treat others of different faith and races now? What does the church encourage now? Most folks that are LDS go out of their way to be inclusive. Are we perfect – not a prayer, we are attempting to be. There are more non English speaking members of the LDS faith now than there are members living in the States. When New Orleans was going to be hit with that hurricane a few years ago, guess who had trucks on the ground ready to go BEFORE the storm even hit ground. Do you know how many thousands of Africans were sponsored to start their own businesses through the Mormon church’s efforts in recent years? (not to mention the millions that are given in aide.) Now, do we get -- or want credit in the media for these things? Nope, but it is a reflection of who we want to be as a people.

So when you say a past prophet of the church did this or that, and don’t have an interest in balancing those statements with the incredible good that they did during their lives. (Maybe you don’t want, selectively believe, or can’t see it.) I also have to wonder about the incredible energy that you have shown in being fairly one-dimensional in your posts lately. You have stated recently that you think that religion in general is a poison. Well, I guess based on the far depths you have gone to dredge up obscurities on my faith, (which influence no active member’s ideology) but fuel your own paranoia I guess I can see how you may have a hard time balancing out your views. Was Mother Theresa poisoned by her faith, or did it help her to bless others? It helped her, along with most that partake of formalized religion. It corrupts some I guess, but as most faiths teach tolerance and respect of others (including the LDS faith) then usually we come out having passed through its influence better folks. What are the fruits of the people as a whole? I have read many of Brigham’s past statements and Joseph Smiths, and more modern prophets, and I think that I am better for it.

Years ago I remember talking to an old guy on my mission who was so mad at President Kimball (prophet during the 1970’s) as “Kimball extended the priesthood to blacks” – I didn’t know what to say to the guy to find any type of common ground, I guess we didn’t have much common ground knowing where I stand, so I moved on and I flt sorry for the guy for his hate.

[freak6]

You crack me up every time you say that.

I'm sure that you have talked to all these pastors, and priests, and somehow the mighty Freak got them to admit their god is fake.

Proof is proof. Fact is fact.

6 out of 6.

It's not a difficult thing to do.

[Bob]

How many times have you gotten a Priest or Pastor to admit that thier god was an impossbility?

I'm batting 1.000 in that regard.

6/6

It was William Blake that said "A person convinced against thier will, holds the same opinion still."

[freak6]

Another question to ask honestly is whether the Mormons as a people were more or less bigoted than the rest of the nation at the time these words were apparently spoken.

Finally. Bob:

1. Was Brigham Young speaking the word of God <b> as he claimed
</b>when he said "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

If you answer Yes, then then your "god" is a racist psychopath.

If you answer No, then Brigham Young is a charlatan.

2. Since Joseph Smith did not accurately translate the book of Abraham, in fact he made what he wanted those hieroglyphs to say to further his cause because he could not read hieroglyphs, is he a complete charlatan, insane, or both?

3. BYU themselves did a DNA study showing that the myths they believe in are definitively not possible, so is the basis for the Mormon faith made up by Joseph Smith when he pretended to read those hieroglyphs a complete falsehood?

[Bob]

Not my point.

The question is, if Hitler had a previous life, was he Brigham Young, and the entire faith is so brazenly absurd, <b>they even disproved the basis for thier own existence</b>, yet still they exist.

How mind boggling is that?

It is INSANE!!!

Read what Brigham Young taught as the word of god, and comment on him.

These are several statements made by Brigham Young that actually have influenced me, and many others. Ballance it out or refelct your own bigotry.



A good man, is a good man, whether in this church, or out of it.
Brigham Young

Any young man who is unmarried at the age of twenty one is a menace to the community.
Brigham Young

Don't try to tear down other people's religion about their ears, Build up your own perfect structure of truth, and invite your listeners to enter in and enjoy it's glories.
Brigham Young

Education is the power to think clearly, the power to act well in the worlds work, and the power to appreciate life.
Brigham Young

Honest hearts produce honest actions.
Brigham Young

I don't care about my character here on earth.I don't care about what other people think or say about me, all I care about is my standing before the Lord.
Brigham Young

I never cared but for one thing, and that is, simply to know that I am right before my Father in Heaven. If I am this moment, this day doing the things God requires of my hands, and precisely where my Father in Heaven wants me to be, I care no more about tomorrow than though it would never come.
Brigham Young

I want to live perfectly above the law, and make it my servant instead of my master.
Brigham Young

If I had a choice of educating my daughters or my sons because of opportunity constraints, I would choose to educate my daughters.
Brigham Young

In the adversity of our best friends we often find something that does not displease us.
Brigham Young

It is wise for us to forget our troubles, there are always new ones to replace them.
Brigham Young

Love the giver more than the gift.
Brigham Young

Nature is the glass reflecting God, as by the sea reflected is the sun, too glorious to be gazed on in his sphere.
Brigham Young

Never let a day pass that you will have cause to say, I will do better tomorrow.
Brigham Young

Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up.
Brigham Young

Silence may be golden, but can you think of a better way to entertain someone than to listen to him?
Brigham Young

The biggest labor problem is tomorrow.
Brigham Young

There is no knowledge, no light, no wisdom that you are in possession of, but what you have received it from some source.
Brigham Young

True independence and freedom can only exist in doing what's right.
Brigham Young

We should never permit ourselves to do anything that we are not willing to see our children do.
Brigham Young

[freak6]

Ballance it out or refelct your own bigotry.


1. Was Brigham Young speaking the word of God as he claimed
when he said "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

If you answer Yes, then then your "god" is a racist psychopath.

If you answer No, then Brigham Young is a charlatan.

2. Since Joseph Smith did not accurately translate the book of Abraham, in fact he made what he wanted those hieroglyphs to say to further his cause because he could not read hieroglyphs, is he a complete charlatan, insane, or both?

3. BYU themselves did a DNA study showing that the myths they believe in are definitively not possible, so is the basis for the Mormon faith made up by Joseph Smith when he pretended to read those hieroglyphs a complete falsehood?

[W*GS]

How many times have you gotten a Priest or Pastor to admit that thier god was an impossbility?

I'm batting 1.000 in that regard.

6/6

Wow. What's your argument?

[freak6]

Wow. What's your argument?

Start another thread, this one is about mormon insanity.

1. Was Brigham Young speaking the word of God as he claimed
when he said "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

If you answer Yes, then then your "god" is a racist psychopath.

If you answer No, then Brigham Young is a charlatan.

2. Since Joseph Smith did not accurately translate the book of Abraham, in fact he made what he wanted those hieroglyphs to say to further his cause because he could not read hieroglyphs, is he a complete charlatan, insane, or both?

3. BYU themselves did a DNA study showing that the myths they believe in are definitively not possible, so is the basis for the Mormon faith made up by Joseph Smith when he pretended to read those hieroglyphs a complete falsehood?

[alkemical]

How can a man who was religious draw paralles to a man who made the state the religion?

I mean - what's the difference than say Stalin, or mao?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

1. Was Brigham Young speaking the word of God <b> as he claimed
</b>when he said "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

If you answer Yes, then then your "god" is a racist psychopath.

If you answer No, then Brigham Young is a charlatan.



That's a valid argument.

After all, Young didn't indicate that the foregoing statement was his personal interpretation of God's will: he attributed the statement directly to God.

And, according to Judeo-Christian theology, God's laws are absolute.

[Bob]

1. Was Brigham Young speaking the word of God as he claimed
when he said "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

If you answer Yes, then then your "god" is a racist psychopath.

If you answer No, then Brigham Young is a charlatan.

2. Since Joseph Smith did not accurately translate the book of Abraham, in fact he made what he wanted those hieroglyphs to say to further his cause because he could not read hieroglyphs, is he a complete charlatan, insane, or both?

3. BYU themselves did a DNA study showing that the myths they believe in are definitively not possible, so is the basis for the Mormon faith made up by Joseph Smith when he pretended to read those hieroglyphs a complete falsehood?

I hate to respond with a novel that you might not be inclined to read with an open mind. I hope that you can hear the thoughts out, and at least appreciate that I am the first person (I have seen on the board) who will attempt to answer some of your questions. As a preface, I will say that these are my opinions, and that most questions asked by those who have already made up thier mind are not asked to get at real info, but are asked to to trip up another, and score points. Its a sad thing really, but as I am an optimist in the nature and charicter of humanity I will give it a shot.

I guess my question is whether you believe that JUST the LDS faith is a complete hoax, or does all religion fit into this category? I think that the latter is the case for you right? So the LDS church may be just a more recent hoax?

I think that Brigham was sharing his own view on the subject and not speaking as a prophet on this matter. But you are bringing up a legit point about the role of a prophet or Pope, or Bishop etc. When they appear to say something that is false what should members/others do with those statements? The only answer that I can give is that I need to follow my own conscious on the matter, as I am inevitably accountable to God for my own viewpoints. Are prophets infallible? I think when speaking as a prophet and not as a man they are. Are these people incapable of prejudice, sin, or making a bone-head statement? Look at the Bible (which I assume you think is a bogus document?) There are several instances when prophets were less than perfect, yet spoke with God. I don’t know why you are pretending to speak as an authority on the subject of prophets when you don’t believe in prophets.

If one looks at the Biblical history of interactions between the OT “covenant people” and their interactions with those people outside of the covenant (basically EVERYONE Who was not Jewish) one sees that intermarriage generally did not happen. But I don’t think it was connected to race – it was connected to belief. Look at Moses, who married the Ethiopian woman, and he was criticized by some family members for it, yet God basically said don’t mess with Moses or criticize him for this choice. So God didn’t have a problem with it.

Regarding the second question. Again you have disregarded even the possibility that the Book of Abraham could be the word of God, and have spent many more hours reading what others (who have hatred toward the LDS church in some cases have to say about it.) It’s like going to Judas or Nero and asking what they felt about Jesus and his teachings. The ancient Christian church was referred to as Minum or “cult” those that hated the early Christian church said that believers drank the body and blood of those they worshiped. (partially true stuff) shared with the ignorant not to illuminate, but to destroy a faith they had no desire to understand. Sad stuff really, as spiritual truths can never be understood and felt under the crushing weight of hate.

I have read the book of Abraham many times and have taught aspects of it to many others. The content is incredible and rich. So again, you claim to understand not only how prophets are chosen and what they can say, and how they are not allowed any sin, and now you (who don’t believe in any scripture?) are going to declare to others how Joseph Smith couldn’t look at an ancient document and receive a vision of events that took place in the past? I don’t think he has a direct word for word translation, but that the story was opened up to him and the parchment was an impetus for that process. But that is just my take; it’s been awhile since I received a direct translation of ancient scripture. If religion is a poison please don’t pretend to know how revelations have to be given.

Regarding the last part. I would think you would compliment the BYU team for being intellectually honest as they studied and looked at the DNA evidence on this matter. If how we understand DNA with “our best science” on this subject points toward that Native Americans seem directly descended from Asian populations than that is what the best science says on the matter. The scientist are not stupid for honestly sharing the scientific evidence with the broader community. Now by extrapolation (as you might) do I throw out the entire faith? There are many things that I do not get, and contradictions that I have seen in the past, that have opened up to me with time. With every ten questions answered ten new ones take their place, I am ok with some ambiguity in my life in the issues that are not of an exalting nature. I will never be sure if the gates of heaven swing or slide, but I am not sure if some things matter.

To partially answer your last question there were according to the Book of Mormon several migrations to the Americas. You mentioned the Jaradites, there were others as well, the Nephites (which broke into two tribes) and the Mulikites. All of the groups above were killed off in wars except for the part of the Nephite tribe so one large tribe was left standing in the end…

Did any other groups live/arrive on the American continent, which intermingled with these groups? I don’t know, maybe, why not?

But again, I ask you have you read the entire Book of Mormon, as I have, have you studied every page as I have? Have you with humility or with prayer considered it, or have you read every page looking for something to use against another? Its hard to breathe in “Poison” and tell others all about it? As you might just dismiss the notions of prayer, God, revelation, the holy Ghost why are you in a position of authority to suggest the rules for understanding issues of faith?

I generally have a “live and let live” mentality with those who don’t want to lop off my head (i.e. radical Muslims.) But one of your greatest concerns is rooted in your feeling that a leader of my church who lived in the 1860’s was bigot because he thought that interracial marriage was evil. I know someone who ironically seems to have a similar problem in 2007, who hates not only my faith, but others of different faiths who do not see the world through your perfect, humanistic lens.

[freak6]

I think that Brigham was sharing his own view on the subject and not speaking as a prophet on this matter.

Bob, Brigham Young stated directly that he was speaking the word of God when he said, "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

I'm going to be generous here and give you an opportunity for a "do over".

1. Was Brigham Young speaking the word of God? <b>as he claimed he was</b>
when he said "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

You also state that "Joseph Smith recieved the book of Abraham through the parchment, which he was not really translating, the hieroglyphs were a tool that God spoke to him through". At least that is the gist of your argument.

Unfortunately, this is not the case according to Joseph Smith, who claims to have directly TRANSLATED the writings, which specifically according to him tell the book of Abraham.

[Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc.
In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."2]

In fact, he actually drew in a person's head on the facsimile he used to translate which should have shown the head of Anubis!

Because at the time no one could translate them, he could make up whatever story he wanted, but once translated, the truth became clear.

Don't be a sucker Bob. You've been conned. A billion people are conned into this stuff and it is nothing to be ashamed of. I was even confirmed presbyterian, but for the smoking hot girls at youth group, LOL

Open your mind and embrace the reality regarding the history of the mormon faith.

Don't forget to re-answer the question about Brigham Young claiming to be speaking the word of god! He did claim that.

Charlatan, or is God a racist?

[atomicbloke]

If I look hard enough, I can find plenty of reasons to question the existence of every religion and every faith on earth.... from the LDS to Christianity to Islam to Budhism to Hinduism....

It is most ridiculous that even in the 21st century, seemingly educated people try to selectively demonize one religion and promote another one.... Gives more credence to the Atheists and Agnostics, at least they shun away the absurdity of all religions.... The global more of "my religion is better than your religion and my god is the only god and yours is a false god... because my own god said so" has caused so many untold conflicts and deaths of human beings, that I sometimes wish we had remained cavemen....

[freak6]

It is most ridiculous that even in the 21st century, seemingly educated people try to selectively demonize one religion and promote another one....

I am not trying to promote any religion. Just showing how of all major religions, LDS is the most absurd. I consider all of them absurd, and a virus spread via ignorance, fear tactics, and lies.

[atomicbloke]

I am not trying to promote any religion. Just showing how of all major religions, LDS is the most absurd. I consider all of them absurd, and a virus spread via ignorance, fear tactics, and lies.

If you consider all religions absurd, they there is absolutely no need to selectively discredit only one among them.

You say it is the most absurd. Have you studies every religion on earth and made this conclusion? Do you know the amount the absurdity in Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism?

Saying religion is absurd is enough. If you just pick out one religion and try to portray as the most absurd, you weaken your own position against religion.

[freak6]

Saying religion is absurd is enough. If you just pick out one religion and try to portray as the most absurd, you weaken your own position against religion.

I didn't just start this out of the blue. It sprang out of a thread about moving to Utah, in which I said I could not because of all the insane zombie mormon ned flanders clones running around.

It doesn't weaken my position as I am just targeting them now. In another thread I am disproving all of christianity.

As far as the other religions, yes I have studied them, and yes I can prove them just as ridiculous as any objective person with a library card or internet can.

But I believe taking them out one a time to be the best strategy.

[Bronco Bob]

I didn't just start this out of the blue. It sprang out of a thread about moving to Utah, in which I said I could not because of all the insane zombie mormon ned flanders clones running around.

It doesn't weaken my position as I am just targeting them now. In another thread I am disproving all of christianity.

As far as the other religions, yes I have studied them, and yes I can prove them just as ridiculous as any objective person with a library card or internet can.

But I believe taking them out one a time to be the best strategy.

Oh hell, I lived in Ogden a year and never once did anyone approach me and
try to convert me to a Mormon. I got hassled a lot more by various religious
types trying to convert me in Colorado and California than I ever did in Utah.
Other than their weird liquor laws it was a nice pleasant place to live.

[Bronco Bob]

I am not trying to promote any religion. Just showing how of all major religions, LDS is the most absurd. I consider all of them absurd, and a virus spread via ignorance, fear tactics, and lies.

I consider Scientology a lot stranger than LDS.

[Bob]

[QUOTE=freak6;1648232]Bob, Brigham Young stated directly that he was speaking the word of God when he said, "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

I'm going to be generous here and give you an opportunity for a "do over".

1. Was Brigham Young speaking the word of God? <b>as he claimed he was</b>
when he said "If you seed with a black person the penalty will be death, and it will always be so".

You also state that "Joseph Smith recieved the book of Abraham through the parchment, which he was not really translating, the hieroglyphs were a tool that God spoke to him through". At least that is the gist of your argument.

Unfortunately, this is not the case according to Joseph Smith, who claims to have directly TRANSLATED the writings, which specifically according to him tell the book of Abraham.

[Joseph Smith said that Facsimile No. 1 was of a bird as the "Angel of the Lord" with "Abraham fastened upon an altar," "being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest. The pots under the altar were various gods "Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, Pharaoh," etc.
In reality, this is "an embalming scene showing the deceased lying on a lion-couch."2]

In fact, he actually drew in a person's head on the facsimile he used to translate which should have shown the head of Anubis!

Because at the time no one could translate them, he could make up whatever story he wanted, but once translated, the truth became clear.

Don't be a sucker Bob. You've been conned. A billion people are conned into this stuff and it is nothing to be ashamed of. I was even confirmed presbyterian, but for the smoking hot girls at youth group, LOL

Open your mind and embrace the reality regarding the history of the mormon faith.

Don't forget to re-answer the question about Brigham Young claiming to be speaking the word of god! He did claim that."




I don’t think you are being generous, I think what you offer is hate of a faith (in post-it note form) that promotes good in the world. So you see a contradiction? Great -- I say that Brigham Young (if he said those words) was wrong -- and was not speaking for God. You may say that you offer truth on the matter -- I haven’t seen that in you. You ask the same question, and want another response -- I have told you what I feel, and have asked you questions, but there is no response to my questions. Why is that? Why the post-it note regurgitation? I think that you don’t respond because your mind is made up on the issue -- that you are not sincere in wanting a real exchange of ideas, because you have decided that I cannot offer you any truth.

Have you prayed once and received an answer? You don’t believe that God speaks to any of us do you? Not because he is indifferent, but because you do not think that any Deity exists. So if this is your starting point of your “generosity” in telling me that my faith is delusion, than you will also have to explain away numerous miracles too sacred to relate, you will have to explain away answered prayers, and the healing of the sick, you will have to erase the knowledge of life after death. Have you read the Book of Abraham, or the Book of Moses, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Book of Mormon, or the Bible. I have -- and if you have never had a moment in your entire life where you KNEW and understood that God was real, why do you assume that based on three post-it notes that do not make sense to you, that by extrapolation that everything else in religion must be poison?

I am not really sulking (at least not much) but it is true that there are those that ask questions not to understand, but respond. What ideas of Brigham motivate and influence me? See the quotes above. You say that nothing good can come from him? You have a right to your feelings, and besides how can I convince you otherwise -- It is not my job to do so, but I find that if a person is sincere, that they start to see inconsistencies of a different sort that confuse the sincere person who sees so much good come from this supposedly corrupt fountain? How does that work scripturally? Ironically your earlier statements lead me to the conclusion that in 2007 bigotry is alive and well. The only person (that I know of) who was negatively influenced by Brigham's statement may be yourself.

You know the question that you pose as the great faith-ender? There are some very real answers to that question and MANY others, but you will never hear them. You have the answers before another opens their mouth. There are so many questions that are answered in LDS doctrine, that are skirted over in many other faiths, which make it one of the most inclusive doctrinally of any faith in the world. If you are not able to see the good works of those of my faith, or others who spend their life in service to others, then I am not sure what you have to offer, or I you -- except resentment of those who believe in God.

Every “foundation” of Christianity can be (and has been) disputed by those that do not believe. From the birth, life, death and resurrection of the savior -- I know that all of these things happened. Regarding what you pulled off some Southern Baptist website on the Book of Abraham (which is ironic as heck.) You say that you know how Joe translated the ancient documents? You dont belive in revelation, or translation by the spirit of God. I say that it (The Book of Abraham) is a truthful book and the word of God. As you have only Judas’ Cliff notes, on the topic and the Bible, and of all faiths -- I suggest that you do not have the authority to outline truth and falsehood, as your replacement of faith is rooted in relativism. You see the contradictions, as I also see some of them, but your thoughts are driven by the 1% that you have allowed yourself to examine. You have stared down the butt of the Mare, and have declared there is no beauty there – congratulations.

I have answered your questions, please answer some of mine.

[alkemical]

Heh....

It still boils down to:

"My way is better than your way" - no matter what you choose to endorse. All of you who keep this argument going ad infinitum without realizing it, or intentionally provoking people: BAD MONKEY!

[freak6]

So you see a contradiction? Great -- I say that Brigham Young (if he said those words) was wrong -- and was not speaking for God.

Ok, so you admit that Brigham Young was a charlaton. Thank you for your honesty.

Have you read the Book of Abraham, etc.. Joseph Smith LIED about being able to translate those papyrus. He was a charlatan as well, as proven by the fact that the papyrus has nothing to do with what he said it did.

The only person (that I know of) who was negatively influenced by Brigham's statement may be yourself.

Really? I think that he negatively influenced all the sheep in his flock spewing his racist hate. It is disgusting. He said if you "seed with a black person, you should be put to death"!!!

You're right, I am the only one that influenced? When did the mormon church start to treat blacks as equals, when did "god" reveal to the mormons that they should allow blacks to be mormon priests?

Only when the cival rights movement had garnered = rights in our world, did the mormon "god" suddenly change his views on blacks in the late 1970's.

hmmm....

Give me a break, the mormons make up thier rules as they go, as do they constantly change the book or mormon around the facts on the ground.

The book of Abraham is a joke, only a brainwashed zombie would take it seriously, especially considering BYU themselves showed it to be completely erroneus.

[Bob]

Thanks for your thoughts. As you do not answer my questions you have confirmed that you would not treat me as an equal if I were my neighbor. I would be another 'Ned Flanders" that you would be incapable of having love for, or sadly even tolerance for. Intolerance and bigotry cuts across many levels – not just race, but also matters of faith. I could live in peace with you and treat you with respect if we met and spoke about different ideas, you have already stated that you could not even stand to be around someone who was LDS. I can tolerate just about anyone except those who want to kill me for religious differences (i.e some of the Muslim faith.) I know it is a low bar, but true Multi-culturalism that is needed for folks to live with decentness toward each other. Thank goodness you are entitled to say what you think, and to believe (or not believe) as you attempt to chart a path through life where you feel comfortable in your own skin. A person should be as honest as they can be -- and that can be a hard thing. I think that everyone to one degree or another sees ideas, habits, traditions, hypocrisy within themselves that they would like to improve upon. Heaven knows I see all kinds of areas that require improvement. It concerns me that you so dislike those of my faith that you wouldn’t be able to have a conversation with someone who is LDS, without launching into why you think my faith is a hoax. You may have lost the ability to separate what you think is the history of my faith (which I think you have selectively digested with the intent to strengthen your own prejudices) rather than be able to see and acknowledge the good that is demonstrated by that faith in the communities in which you live. (If one part is bad, it is all bad mentality.) If when you see a post about Utah that you feel “a need” to hijack that thread it reflects more about you, than those your are describing. If someone of my faith has personally wronged you I am sorry they did that.

My guess is, however, if you were to have ever met Mother Theresa you would have asked her all the wrong questions. You have blasted her, and lectured her for believing the Trinity, which was “fabrication of the council of Nicaea” and not looked into the core of what made her such a positive influence in the world.

[freak6]

Thanks for your thoughts. As you do not answer my questions you have confirmed that you would not treat me as an equal if I were my neighbor.

I would treat you as I would anyone else that believes that fairies and dragons are real. With respect for being human. Just because I think you lack good judgement and rational ability to discern fact from fiction to go along with delusional beliefs, doesn't mean I would treat you poorly.

You yourself called Brigham Young a charlatan, and you still haven't accepted the fact on the Book of Abraham.

Your excuse for how he "translated" it flies directly in the face of the author himself!

He made up what he wanted it to say. It was a means to an end. Why can't you see that? Because it destroys your belief.

I think you need to first open your mind to the possibility that your entire religion is founded on lies.

Just accept that as a strong possibility given the facts. Then analyze the facts, the quotes, how gods word changes with our society...

[BroncoInferno]

Well, I mean, Joseph Smith invented the religion two years after he was convicted of fraud, so what do you expect. At least they don't follow a religion invented by a science fiction writer like Scientologists.

[yavoon]

Well, I mean, Joseph Smith invented the religion two years after he was convicted of fraud, so what do you expect. At least they don't follow a religion invented by a science fiction writer like Scientologists.

something to be said about modern religions. I mean sure back in the day any crazy dude could convince ppl that he was a prophet. but now that takes real gumption!

[Deacon Blue]

No, it's Pope Benedict, who thinks their is only one true church, just like Hitler thought there was only one true race.


Christ! That whole thing got blown WAY out of proportion.

I haven't seen the media quote this part of Dominus Iesus:

“Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

[Bob]

Well, I mean, Joseph Smith invented the religion two years after he was convicted of fraud, so what do you expect. At least they don't follow a religion invented by a science fiction writer like Scientologists.

Christ was convicted as well....