'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi'

[Rigs11]

'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'
Interviews with US veterans show for the first time the pattern of brutality in Iraq
By Leonard Doyle in Washington
Published: 12 July 2007
It is an axiom of American political life that the actions of the US military are beyond criticism. Democrats and Republicans praise the men and women in uniform at every turn. Apart from the odd bad apple at Abu Ghraib, the US military in Iraq is deemed to be doing a heroic job under trying circumstances.

That perception will take a severe knock today with the publication in The Nation magazine of a series of in-depth interviews with 50 combat veterans of the Iraq war from across the US. In the interviews, veterans have described acts of violence in which US forces have abused or killed Iraqi men, women and children with impunity.

The report steers clear of widely reported atrocities, such as the massacre in Haditha in 2005, but instead unearths a pattern of human rights abuses. "It's not individual atrocity," Specialist Garett Reppenhagen, a sniper from the 263rd Armour Battalion, said. "It's the fact that the entire war is an atrocity."

A number of the troops have returned home bearing mental and physical scars from fighting a war in an environment in which the insurgents are supported by the population. Many of those interviewed have come to oppose the US military presence in Iraq, joining the groundswell of public opinion across the US that views the war as futile.

This view is echoed in Washington, where increasing numbers of Democrats and Republicans are openly calling for an early withdrawal from Iraq. And the Iraq quagmire has pushed President George Bush's poll ratings to an all-time low.

Journalists and human rights groups have published numerous reports drawing attention to the killing of Iraqi civilians by US forces. The Nation's investigation presents for the first time named military witnesses who back those assertions. Some participated themselves.

Through a combination of gung-ho recklessness and criminal behaviour born of panic, a narrative emerges of an army that frequently commits acts of cold-blooded violence. A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.

"It would always be an AK because they have so many of these lying around," said Joe Hatcher, 26, a scout with the 4th Calvary Regiment. He revealed the army also planted 9mm handguns and shovels to make it look like the civilians were shot while digging a hole for a roadside bomb.

"Every good cop carries a throwaway," Hatcher said of weapons planted on innocent victims in incidents that occurred while he was stationed between Tikrit and Samarra, from February 2004 to March 2005. Any survivors were sent to jail for interrogation.

There were also deaths caused by the reckless behaviour of military convoys. Sgt Kelly Dougherty of the Colorado National Guard described a hit-and-run in which a military convoy ran over a 10-year-old boy and his three donkeys, killing them all. "Judging by the skid marks, they hardly even slowed down. But, I mean... your order is that you never stop."

The worst abuses seem to have been during raids on private homes when soldiers were hunting insurgents. Thousands of such raids have taken place, usually at dead of night. The veterans point out that most are futile and serve only to terrify the civilians, while generating sympathy for the resistance.

Sgt John Bruhns, 29, of the 3rd Brigade, 1st Armoured Division, described a typical raid. "You want to catch them off guard," he explained. "You want to catch them in their sleep ... You grab the man of the house. You rip him out of bed in front of his wife. You put him up against the wall... Then you go into a room and you tear the room to shreds. You'll ask 'Do you have any weapons? Do you have any anti-US propaganda?'

"Normally they'll say no, because that's normally the truth," Sgt Bruhns said. "So you'll take his sofa cushions and dump them. You'll open up his closet and you'll throw all the clothes on the floor and basically leave his house looking like a hurricane just hit it." And at the end, if the soldiers don't find anything, they depart with a "Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening".

Sgt Dougherty described her squad leader shooting an Iraqi civilian in the back in 2003. "The mentality of my squad leader was like, 'Oh, we have to kill them over here so I don't have to kill them back in Colorado'," she said. "He just seemed to view every Iraqi as a potential terrorist."

'It would always happen. We always got the wrong house...'

"People would make jokes about it, even before we'd go into a raid, like, 'Oh ****, we're gonna get the wrong house'. Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house."

Sergeant Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas 4th Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour that began in March 2003

"I had to go tell this woman that her husband was actually dead. We gave her money, we gave her, like, 10 crates of water, we gave the kids, I remember, maybe it was soccer balls and toys. We just didn't really know what else to do."

Lieutenant Jonathan Morgenstein, 35, of Arlington, Virginia, Marine Corps civil affairs unit. In Ramadi from August 2004 to March 2005

"We were approaching this one house... and we're approaching, and they had a family dog. And it was barking ferociously, cause it's doing its job. And my squad leader, just out of nowhere, just shoots it... So I see this dog - I'm a huge animal lover... this dog has, like, these eyes on it and he's running around spraying blood all over the place. And like, you know, what the hell is going on? The family is sitting right there, with three little children and a mom and a dad, horrified. And I'm at a loss for words."

Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004

"I'll tell you the point where I really turned... [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg... An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me... like asking me why. You know, 'Why do I have a bullet in my leg?'... I was just like, 'This is, this is it. This is ridiculous'."

Specialist Michael Harmon, 24, of Brooklyn, 167th Armour Regiment, 4th Infantry Division. In Al-Rashidiya on 13-month tour beginning in April 2003

"I open a bag and I'm trying to get bandages out and the guys in the guard tower are yelling at me, 'Get that **** haji out of here,'... our doctor rolls up in an ambulance and from 30 to 40 meters away looks out and says, shakes his head and says, 'You know, he looks fine, he's gonna be all right,' and walks back... kind of like, 'Get your ass over here and drive me back up to the clinic'. So I'm standing there, and the whole time both this doctor and the guards are yelling at me, you know, to get rid of this guy."

Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004

'Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find...'

"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."

Sergeant Patrick Campbell, 29, of Camarillo, California, 256th Infantry Brigade. In Abu Gharth for 11 months beginning November 2004

"Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat."

Lieutenant Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington DC, 1st Armoured Division. Eight-month tour of Baghdad beginning Sept 2003

"I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'... [Only when we got home] in... meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then."

Specialist Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado, 3rd Brigade, 1st Infantry. In Baquba for a year beginning February 2004

"[The photo] was very graphic... They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got a spoon. He's reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and smiling."

Specialist Aidan Delgado, 25, of Sarasota, Florida, 320th Military Police Company. Deployed to Talil air base for one year beginning April 2003

"The car was approaching what was in my opinion a very poorly marked checkpoint... and probably didn't even see the soldiers... The guys got spooked and decided it was a possible threat, so they shot up the car. And they [the bodies] literally sat in the car for the next three days while we drove by them.

Sergeant Dustin Flatt, 33, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. One-year from February 2004

"The frustration that resulted from our inability to get back at those who were attacking us led to tactics that seemed designed simply to punish the local population..."

Sergeant Camilo Mejía, 31, from Miami, National Guardsman, 1-124 Infantry Battalion, 53rd Infantry Brigade. Six-month tour beginning April 2003

"I just remember thinking, 'I just brought terror to someone under the American flag'."

Sergeant Timothy John Westphal, 31, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour beginning February 2004

"A lot of guys really supported that whole concept that if they don't speak English and they have darker skin, they're not as human as us, so we can do what we want."

Specialist Josh Middleton, 23, of New York City, 2nd Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division. Four-month tour in Baghdad and Mosul beginning December 2004

"I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with, and everybody else be damned."

Sergeant Ben Flanders, 28, National Guardsman from Concord, New Hampshire, 172nd Mountain Infantry. In Balad for 11 months beginning March 2004

The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness, by Chris Hedges and Laila al-Arian, appears in the 30 July issue of The Nation


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2758829.ece

[freak6]

That's pretty much it. Doesn't help when the Commander in Chief links Al Qaeda to Iraq over and over, when he himself didn't even know there were Sunni and Shiite Muslims, not just "evildoers".

[baja]

You are right this falls on the leadership

[freak6]

Ex.

We just got two new boots in my shop.

When they checked in to our Company Gunny, he asked them, "Why'd you going the Marine Corps"

"TO KILL!!! GUNNERY SERGEANT!!" responded the 22 year old kid who enlisted in the Corps with an MOS of Computer Networking!!! lmao

Now I am all about training these kids into fine lethal Marines as is my duty, but it gives you an idea of how we are trained. Killing the enemy is what Marines do first and foremost. When "the enemy" doesn't wear a uniform and is largely abiguious to us, well, sht happens.

[Bronco Bob]

When John Kerry came back from Vietnam and told of the same sort of
thing going on over there, the right wing turned him into the bad guy.
I feel sorry for these guys speaking out. You know if they ever try
to run for a political office those same kind of people are going to
be doing the same sick thing to these guys.

[baja]

I don't know why this thread is not getting more posts

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

A number of the troops have returned home bearing mental and physical scars from fighting a war in an environment in which the insurgents are supported by the population. Many of those interviewed have come to oppose the US military presence in Iraq, joining the groundswell of public opinion across the US that views the war as futile.

I'm sure the usual ignorant chickenhawks on the far-right will denounce them as traitors and rotten patriots anytime now...

[TailgateNut]

Where's Cutthemdowns' comment on this. You know, the guy who thinks soldiers don't need a break from the "realities" of war.

No one thinks about the mental problems we will need to address when these soldiers return home to their lives and families. I sure Bush hasn't considered stashing away funds to help them when they are not in uniform anymore. They are just his private "throw away fighting force".

[That One Guy]

"Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat."

"I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with, and everybody else be damned."

Those two quotes are absolutely true and that's my mindset when I was there and would be if I went again. My job, first and foremost, is the mission. Secondly it's keeping myself alive while conducting the mission. If I feel threatened while doing the mission, I'll protect myself and sort out the mess later. Since these people want their 15 minutes of fame they're gonna go talking, make that mentality look like pure evil and folks who may be a little quick on the trigger will end up ruining their entire lives as someone has to be made an example of. They send me over there to help them but I'd rather see 20 Iraqi's suffering a painful, agonizing death than see 1 of my buddies not get to go home to his family. Just in the same way the Abu Ghraib guards screwed everyone else, so are these people.

[jhat01]

Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004

'Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find...'

"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."


AND????? I guess they should have only killed him a little.

[That One Guy]

Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004

'Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find...'

"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."


AND????? I guess they should have only killed him a little.


I was thinking the exact same thing. I can understand defending innocents but whether you're really bad or just bad, you're still gonna suffer the same fate.

Something tells me a lot of these people were things like medics, public affairs, or something like that. I'd like to hope the combat arms folks wouldn't be so desperate for attention that they'd try to drag their buddies through the mud.

EDIT: I looked this guy up to see and it doesn't list his branch but he's part of the National Guard. That could explain why he doesn't like hurting people...

[jhat01]

I agree. And I can't help but think there are terrorists out there reading this, and laughing at us.

[That One Guy]

I agree. And I can't help but think there are terrorists out there reading this, and laughing at us.

It's so easy for them to win the media campaign because of articles like this. Folks back here are so anxious to here something bad about what we're doing so they can report on atrocities that even things like that, the killing of an armed combatant, becomes bad publicity. The Iraqis are even easier to convince so the more Americans protest what we're doing, the more legitimacy it lends to the media campaigns going on over there. So now not only are soldiers becoming more and more timid in an effort to avoid prosecution but the more media it gets, the more Iraqis are turning against us.

I've always said embedded reporters will lose this war for us but now I'll have to amend that to say embedded reporters and wussy ass soldiers.

[Spider]

It's so easy for them to win the media campaign because of articles like this. Folks back here are so anxious to here something bad about what we're doing so they can report on atrocities that even things like that, the killing of an armed combatant, becomes bad publicity. The Iraqis are even easier to convince so the more Americans protest what we're doing, the more legitimacy it lends to the media campaigns going on over there. So now not only are soldiers becoming more and more timid in an effort to avoid prosecution but the more media it gets, the more Iraqis are turning against us.

I've always said embedded reporters will lose this war for us but now I'll have to amend that to say embedded reporters and wussy ass soldiers.

you are full of **** .........

[That One Guy]

you are full of **** .........

How so? Are you going to tell me that reporters aren't salivating over the opportunity to report on "atrocities" happening over there? That stuff sells these days, unfortunately.

[Spider]

How so? Are you going to tell me that reporters aren't salivating over the opportunity to report on "atrocities" happening over there? That stuff sells these days, unfortunately.

Bull**** , every General that said we needed more troops have been fired ....... just spare us the It is the Medias fault , Bush ****ed up , just like LBJ did in nam . you cant ****ing nation build against the peoples will ........... If the people dont like it , it wont happen .........

[That One Guy]

Bull**** , every General that said we needed more troops have been fired ....... just spare us the It is the Medias fault , Bush ****ed up , just like LBJ did in nam . you cant ****ing nation build against the peoples will ........... If the people dont like it , it wont happen .........

Exactly! There was a day though when the Iraqis legitimately wanted us there. That lasted probably through about the end of OIF 1 before their mindset really started to change.

Can you really tell me that someone on the fence of whether the US in Iraq is a good idea wouldn't be affected by the embedded reporter's video of the guy being shot point blank in Fallujah a couple years ago? Especially an Iraqi who feels disillusioned but still thinks things will get better and then flips on the news to see what could easily be portrayed as an execution. I'm just saying media campaigns spread the feeling of disillusionment faster and if the media campaign weren't important, there'd have been no beheading videos. You don't honestly think those were put out to scare the US Government, do you? The Gov't sees numbers, numbers don't have heads.

[Spider]

Exactly! There was a day though when the Iraqis legitimately wanted us there. That lasted probably through about the end of OIF 1 before their mindset really started to change.

Can you really tell me that someone on the fence of whether the US in Iraq is a good idea wouldn't be affected by the embedded reporter's video of the guy being shot point blank in Fallujah a couple years ago? Especially an Iraqi who feels disillusioned but still thinks things will get better and then flips on the news to see what could easily be portrayed as an execution. I'm just saying media campaigns spread the feeling of disillusionment faster and if the media campaign weren't important, there'd have been no beheading videos. You don't honestly think those were put out to scare the US Government, do you? The Gov't sees numbers, numbers don't have heads.

Bull**** , they never wanted us there you can blame the media all you want , but the Media isnt at fault for trying to nation build on the cheap , and I will tell you something else , the Media didnt report , the first building secured when we went into Baghdad was the oil management ........
this Bush **** up is on to him .......

[That One Guy]

Bull**** , they never wanted us there you can blame the media all you want , but the Media isnt at fault for trying to nation build on the cheap , and I will tell you something else , the Media didnt report , the first building secured when we went into Baghdad was the oil management ........
this Bush **** up is on to him .......

They never wanted us there? I will guarantee you you're wrong on that. I don't have any proof other than what's in my head, what I've read, heard, and seen so my opinion on that will be discounted I'm sure. I've seen plenty of interrogation reports from Saddam's soldiers that said they were looking forward to working with the US Army to rebuild their country just as much as they were scared of us during the initial invasion. The Iraqis wanted the US to bring them a country of prosperity, democracy, and peace. The majority that didn't were the ones that had done well under Saddam and had truly pledged their allegiance to him. To think folks living under Saddam wouldn't dream about the country the Americans would bring is outrageous.

As for the first building secured in Baghdad, I'm fairly certain that would be the Baghdad International Airport. If it had been the oil ministry though, that's acceptable as well. How do you think they plan to pay for the rebuilding of Iraq? The oil. Everytime those pipelines get blown and the oil export slows down, the US Government has to fund more of the administration of the Government and the rebuilding. I know you'll say I'm drinking the Bush kool-aid here but I've yet to see any evidence of anyone capitalizing off Iraqi oil other than the Iraqis themselves.

[Cito Pelon]

I don't know why this thread is not getting more posts

OK, I'll post. This is the first time I opened it. This article is why I counseled against an occupation. I knew these type of things would happen. It's just common sense that soldiers will behave this way. What these soldiers did is just what every single one of us would do in those situations. I've been a soldier, I know how it is.

There were so many people saying back in 2002/2003 attack anybody, we don't care who. Polls showed 73% of the population was hell bent to attack Iraq. I said back then "when you see what the combat will be like, you'll be hollering to get out of there." And some fools ridiculed me. Now those fools are sniveling to get out. Maybe they'll know better next time, at least I hope they go into the next engagement with a clearer head.

This article is how any war is. They're all the same, brutal and ugly. This is why you put your best efforts into avoiding war if you possibly can, rather than whooping and hollering to go to war.

That 73% that were so crazy for war most can't be found these days. They didn't know what the f they were getting into back then, they were flavor clowns, like war and especially an occupation is a game you can just pick up and leave at any time like you're at Mile High and the Broncs are getting their ass kicked, or it's snowing hard. I guess some folks figured you just go shoot a bunch of the other guys and hey, damn, that will feel good. Uh-uh, that's not how it works. Never has, never will.

Ah well, you live and learn. Hopefully the amount of panic and foolishness I saw after 9/11 won't happen again.

[That One Guy]

OK, I'll post. This is the first time I opened it. This article is why I counseled against an occupation. I knew these type of things would happen. It's just common sense that soldiers will behave this way. What these soldiers did is just what every single one of us would do in those situations. I've been a soldier, I know how it is.

There were so many people saying back in 2002/2003 attack anybody, we don't care who. Polls showed 73% of the population was hell bent to attack Iraq. I said back then "when you see what the combat will be like, you'll be hollering to get out of there." And some fools ridiculed me. Now those fools are sniveling to get out. Maybe they'll know better next time, at least I hope they go into the next engagement with a clearer head.

This article is how any war is. They're all the same, brutal and ugly. This is why you put your best efforts into avoiding war if you possibly can, rather than whooping and hollering to go to war.

That 73% that were so crazy for war most can't be found these days. They didn't know what the f they were getting into back then, they were flavor clowns, like war and especially an occupation is a game you can just pick up and leave at any time like you're at Mile High and the Broncs are getting their ass kicked, or it's snowing hard. I guess some folks figured you just go shoot a bunch of the other guys and hey, damn, that will feel good. Uh-uh, that's not how it works. Never has, never will.

Ah well, you live and learn. Hopefully the amount of panic and foolishness I saw after 9/11 won't happen again.


I agree completely. Unfortunately, this is what scares me the most in that when a real war needs to be fought, this mentality will still be there. I also think this is a reason we haven't really won a war since WWII. After WWII the media could truly show what was going on and people get burnt out on fighting too quick. Wars will need to be fought in the way Desert Storm was to ever succeed again. Unfortunately, that's not gonna be happening very often whereas occupation wars will be a lot more common.

[baja]

Well Cito I guess this guy didn't get the memo.


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/shared-blogs/palmbeach/cerabino/media/bush_aircraft_carrier_photo.jpg

http://www.thepoorman.net/images/Bush_flight_suit.jpg

[baja]

<B>I agree completely. Unfortunately, this is what scares me the most in that when aREAL war needs to be fought, this mentality will still be there.</B> I also think this is a reason we haven't really won a war since WWII. After WWII the media could truly show what was going on and people get burnt out on fighting too quick. Wars will need to be fought in the way Desert Storm was to ever succeed again. Unfortunately, that's not gonna be happening very often whereas occupation wars will be a lot more common.

YOU SHOULD RUN THIS BY THE FAMILIES OF THE 3000+ DEAD SERVICE PERSONAL

[Cito Pelon]

"Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat."

"I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with, and everybody else be damned."

[QUOTE]Those two quotes are absolutely true and that's my mindset when I was there and would be if I went again. My job, first and foremost, is the mission. Secondly it's keeping myself alive while conducting the mission. If I feel threatened while doing the mission, I'll protect myself and sort out the mess later.

To this point, I agree. That's what a soldier does, period.

Since these people want their 15 minutes of fame they're gonna go talking, make that mentality look like pure evil and folks who may be a little quick on the trigger will end up ruining their entire lives as someone has to be made an example of. They send me over there to help them but I'd rather see 20 Iraqi's suffering a painful, agonizing death than see 1 of my buddies not get to go home to his family. Just in the same way the Abu Ghraib guards screwed everyone else, so are these people

I don't know how to address this. You have some demons, I guess.

[Cito Pelon]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I can understand defending innocents but whether you're really bad or just bad, you're still gonna suffer the same fate.

Something tells me a lot of these people were things like medics, public affairs, or something like that. I'd like to hope the combat arms folks wouldn't be so desperate for attention that they'd try to drag their buddies through the mud.

EDIT: I looked this guy up to see and it doesn't list his branch but he's part of the National Guard. That could explain why he doesn't like hurting people...

Are you a career man?

[That One Guy]

YOU SHOULD RUN THIS BY THE FAMILIES OF THE 3000+ DEAD SERVICE PERSONAL

Haha... they'd love it wouldn't they! Nothing I love more than disgacing the fallen dead!:wiggle:

Come on, a war is fought between nations... fought between groups... a War is not fought between a Nation's Army and armed civilians. This war ended in May 2003 and it's been an insurgency since then. Insurgency, while it is a conflict, is not a full out war. Let's not get petty here.

[That One Guy]

[QUOTE=cah412;1645973]"Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat."

"I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with, and everybody else be damned."



To this point, I agree. That's what a soldier does, period.



I don't know how to address this. You have some demons, I guess.

No, I don't have any demons but I do know that my unit went over with the intent that we were coming home alive and whatever happened in the process of us getting home was between us. I knew one guy that said if he ever got attacked from a house and they sent him in to raid that house rather than just blow it up from outside, anyone inside was dead. Would I have turned him in for killing people that would've simply been guilty of being the father, mother, brother, or sister of a bad guy? Nope, they let him conduct the attack so their guilt is between them and their maker. Would I have waxed an entire house for someone shooting at me? I'd like to think not, but I wouldn't turn someone in for it. When someone feels their life is in danger and goes into self preservation mode, who are we to judge that person?

[TheDave]

I agree completely. Unfortunately, this is what scares me the most in that when a real war needs to be fought, this mentality will still be there. I also think this is a reason we haven't really won a war since WWII. After WWII the media could truly show what was going on and people get burnt out on fighting too quick. Wars will need to be fought in the way Desert Storm was to ever succeed again. Unfortunately, that's not gonna be happening very often whereas occupation wars will be a lot more common.

The irony here is that we haven't "needed" to fight a war since WWII. I hate to sound like the hippie on the board, but maybe we should have get involved in less of them. Just between Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq we have lost 100,000 men and women... Maybe it's time to find a new way.

[That One Guy]

Are you a career man?

I hope not, if I am it'll be due to issues with my transition rather than my wanting to retire.

[baja]

Haha... they'd love it wouldn't they! Nothing I love more than disgacing the fallen dead!:wiggle:

Come on, a war is fought between nations... fought between groups... a War is not fought between a Nation's Army and armed civilians. This war ended in May 2003 and it's been an insurgency since then. Insurgency, while it is a conflict, is not a full out war. Let's not get petty here.

OK I'll try to not be PETTY.

Oh the irony...

[That One Guy]

The irony here is that we haven't "needed" to fight a war since WWII. I hate to sound like the hippie on the board, but maybe we should have get involved in less of them. Just between Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq we have lost 100,000 men and women... Maybe it's time to find a new way.

I'll agree again... but some can always argue that if we had intervened earlier, WWII may not have happened. At that point we wouldn't have *needed* to fight it but if we had known the fighting was inevitable, would it have been smarter? Who knows if any of the conflicts we've fought would've later become world conflicts that we couldn't avoid participating in. Noone knows how history would've played out so it's hard to say.

[baja]

The irony here is that we haven't "needed" to fight a war since WWII. I hate to sound like the hippie on the board, but maybe we should have get involved in less of them. Just between Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq we have lost 100,000 men and women... Maybe it's time to find a new way.

Well your picture doesn't help.

BTY baja fan agrees with this post.

[That One Guy]

OK I'll try to not be PETTY.

Oh the irony...

To accuse me of trying to disrespect the fallen by making a distinction between a full out war and a conflict is rather petty to me. Not sure where I've been petty.

[Spider]

Haha... they'd love it wouldn't they! Nothing I love more than disgacing the fallen dead!:wiggle:

Come on, a war is fought between nations... fought between groups... a War is not fought between a Nation's Army and armed civilians. This war ended in May 2003 and it's been an insurgency since then. Insurgency, while it is a conflict, is not a full out war. Let's not get petty here.

war is the result of failed diplomacy ........... we didnt need to go into Iraq , there was no beef , dont you think it is odd , Al Qadea is stronger now then 2 years ago and in Pakistan ?
Bin Ladden and the rest want us in Iraq , Al Qadea sends in a token force to keep us occupied , And Bush is stupid enough to stay the course ............

[That One Guy]

war is the result of failed diplomacy ........... we didnt need to go into Iraq , there was no beef , dont you think it is odd , Al Qadea is stronger now then 2 years ago and in Pakistan ?
Bin Ladden and the rest want us in Iraq , Al Qadea sends in a token force to keep us occupied , And Bush is stupid enough to stay the course ............

Al Qaeda has been growing ever since the popularity they got following 9/11. So yes, Al Qaeda may be growing over the last two years but that's kinda misleading. They've been growing rapidly due to the fact that they pulled off a very significant attack against the "infidels." Afghanistan was considered by most to be a legit action yet Al Qaeda grew significantly between 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan. There's no way to make the distinction between folks joining Al Qaeda due to the success and publicity they've gotten and those who joined due to President Bush's policy.

[That One Guy]

And as for the overall war in Iraq, I've already said that looking back I'll agree that we were mislead and the need for war was embellished by the president. I'll concede that. But I'll also say that I still believe the WMD was there at one point. How much, I can't say, but I've seen enough evidence to make me believe there was something. Considering how the president decided to make everything sound before the war, I think we can all assume that even it if was there it didn't pose the threat that they tried to make it sound like.

[Cito Pelon]

It's so easy for them to win the media campaign because of articles like this. Folks back here are so anxious to here something bad about what we're doing so they can report on atrocities that even things like that, the killing of an armed combatant, becomes bad publicity. The Iraqis are even easier to convince so the more Americans protest what we're doing, the more legitimacy it lends to the media campaigns going on over there. So now not only are soldiers becoming more and more timid in an effort to avoid prosecution but the more media it gets, the more Iraqis are turning against us.

I've always said embedded reporters will lose this war for us but now I'll have to amend that to say embedded reporters and wussy ass soldiers.

Well, I have to agree that if a nation wants to go into war, you go in fast and hard, kick the crap out of whomever, make your objectives fast, then get the f out of there.

Cah, when a war/occupation drags out like this one has, what you're pissed off about will happen every time. Ah, hell, this is a mess we're in and will have ramifications 70 years from now. There's just no way to make it good. I was hoping once there was such a majority of people that were behind the invasion of Iraq that we could get out clean and fast, but that's not gonna happen. This is gonna be such an ugly episode for many, many years to come.

[Spider]

Al Qaeda has been growing ever since the popularity they got following 9/11. So yes, Al Qaeda may be growing over the last two years but that's kinda misleading. They've been growing rapidly due to the fact that they pulled off a very significant attack against the "infidels." Afghanistan was considered by most to be a legit action yet Al Qaeda grew significantly between 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan. There's no way to make the distinction between folks joining Al Qaeda due to the success and publicity they've gotten and those who joined due to President Bush's policy.

Bull**** ........Look we should have finished the Job in Afghanistan , I know you like to blame the media , but Afghan thats all on Bush , you mentioned success in Afghanistan ,only cause Bush put Afghan and the war on terror on the back burner , Bush gave the high hard one to Lassie , rushing into Iraq ....caH , I am not one that can be bull****ted , talking points and spin does not work on me

[TheDave]

I'll agree again... but some can always argue that if we had intervened earlier, WWII may not have happened. At that point we wouldn't have *needed* to fight it but if we had known the fighting was inevitable, would it have been smarter? Who knows if any of the conflicts we've fought would've later become world conflicts that we couldn't avoid participating in. Noone knows how history would've played out so it's hard to say.

That is a risk i'm always willing to take... "Premptive war" is a horse **** euphamism used to condone killing 1,000's of people... Period.

[That One Guy]

Bull**** ........Look we should have finished the Job in Afghanistan , I know you like to blame the media , but Afghan thats all on Bush , you mentioned success in Afghanistan ,only cause Bush put Afghan and the war on terror on the back burner , Bush gave the high hard one to Lassie , rushing into Iraq ....caH , I am not one that can be bull****ted , talking points and spin does not work on me

One has no way of saying the outcome in Afghanistan would be any different now had there not been an invasion into Iraq. If we can have as many people combing Tora Bora as we had and still not find those hiding within the mountains, there's no way to avoid them hiding from us. For one to say we could've finished Afghanistan had we not went to Iraq is just trying to pile more on Bush, one can't predict what didn't happen.

[TheDave]

One has no way of saying the outcome in Afghanistan would be any different now had there not been an invasion into Iraq. If we can have as many people combing Tora Bora as we had and still not find those hiding within the mountains, there's no way to avoid them hiding from us. For one to say we could've finished Afghanistan had we not went to Iraq is just trying to pile more on Bush, one can't predict what didn't happen.

Are you seriously trying to say that a troop increase from 18,000 to 150,000 wouldn't have made a significant difference?

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE=Cito Pelon;1646153]

[QUOTE]No, I don't have any demons but I do know that my unit went over with the intent that we were coming home alive and whatever happened in the process of us getting home was between us.

Well, I can't argue with that. I'd have the same intent, I know I would.

I knew one guy that said if he ever got attacked from a house and they sent him in to raid that house rather than just blow it up from outside, anyone inside was dead.

Actually, that guy if he was willing to bust into a house he was taking fire from would have been a good comrade. That would need some balls. Some folks will say that's wanton killing, I'd say that's what a soldier is trained and expected to do. Which is why I say folks have to be careful about what they send soldiers to do. That is what soldiers do, they kill people, and there is no way on this earth that all they kill are combatants. Just no way, so folks that cheer for war have to realize that. Trouble is, they think it's like a game, where you can shut it off any time you please.

Would I have turned him in for killing people that would've simply been guilty of being the father, mother, brother, or sister of a bad guy? Nope, they let him conduct the attack so their guilt is between them and their maker. Would I have waxed an entire house for someone shooting at me? I'd like to think not, but I wouldn't turn someone in for it.

Tough call. I guess if one has a score to settle they'd think differently.

When someone feels their life is in danger and goes into self preservation mode, who are we to judge that person?

Agreed. And whomever puts them in that position cavalierly if that is the case should be hung by the neck until dead.

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE]They never wanted us there? I will guarantee you you're wrong on that. I don't have any proof other than what's in my head, what I've read, heard, and seen so my opinion on that will be discounted I'm sure. I've seen plenty of interrogation reports from Saddam's soldiers that said they were looking forward to working with the US Army to rebuild their country just as much as they were scared of us during the initial invasion. The Iraqis wanted the US to bring them a country of prosperity, democracy, and peace. The majority that didn't were the ones that had done well under Saddam and had truly pledged their allegiance to him. To think folks living under Saddam wouldn't dream about the country the Americans would bring is outrageous.

I'll agree with that. But there was never any chance to make a victory out of the invasion. The best to hope for was to eliminate the Hussein dictatorship, get out fast, keep the civil service, the police forces and army intact, execute the top 3 in each sector. That's how you run a war. People wanted the stinking war, and that's how you run a war. But no, no, people really didn't want a war, seems like. They wanted something clean and prissy.

WTF, war is brutal and ugly. You don't f around once you decide to war. You kick the living daylights out of the opponent as fast as possible, execute the former leaders unmercifully, install a puppet government with the former civil service, police forces, army intact, then get the hell out of there. You execute the former leaders, but no way you try to build the rank and file from the ground up. You only keep the troops necessary to keep the puppet government in line, and then you look long term to make the country stable.

As for the first building secured in Baghdad, I'm fairly certain that would be the Baghdad International Airport. If it had been the oil ministry though, that's acceptable as well. How do you think they plan to pay for the rebuilding of Iraq? The oil. Everytime those pipelines get blown and the oil export slows down, the US Government has to fund more of the administration of the Government and the rebuilding. I know you'll say I'm drinking the Bush kool-aid here but I've yet to see any evidence of anyone capitalizing off Iraqi oil other than the Iraqis themselves

I have to agree with this. Dang, I seem to be agreeing with you too much for a middle of the road guy. Nevertheless, I'll agree with you. I'll agree with Spide and Baja somewhere later, since they are also good Americans/Mexicans. They also want to see the US succeed in its endeavors.

I said prior to the invasion that if we went into Iraq we better secure those oil facilities damn fast, and pump the oil to pay for the rebuilding. Really, WTF, if you invade a country you don't play mamby-pamby after the deed is done. This is why I get so incensed by people that were so willing to invade Iraq but weren't willing to apply the total dictatorial force necessary to make the invasion actually be a success.

[Cito Pelon]

I agree completely. Unfortunately, this is what scares me the most in that when a real war needs to be fought, this mentality will still be there. I also think this is a reason we haven't really won a war since WWII. After WWII the media could truly show what was going on and people get burnt out on fighting too quick. Wars will need to be fought in the way Desert Storm was to ever succeed again. Unfortunately, that's not gonna be happening very often whereas occupation wars will be a lot more common.

But what about the Vietnam generation? The generation that lived through the Beirut suicide truck? They had seen plenty of media coverage of carnage, but were willing to give it a go all over again, no questions asked.

I guess the deal is to see carnage live turns folks off, but after a year or so, they're not scared anymore.

[Cito Pelon]

Well Cito I guess this guy didn't get the memo.


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/shared-blogs/palmbeach/cerabino/media/bush_aircraft_carrier_photo.jpg

http://www.thepoorman.net/images/Bush_flight_suit.jpg

Yeah, well, GWB is nothing but a fat-mouthed punk. I have zero respect for this punk. I'd like to backhand him.

[Spider]

Leaving Afghanistan like we did , was the mother of all **** ups , what happened after that is all on Bush ......

[Cito Pelon]

The irony here is that we haven't "needed" to fight a war since WWII. I hate to sound like the hippie on the board, but maybe we should have get involved in less of them. Just between Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq we have lost 100,000 men and women... Maybe it's time to find a new way.

Tough call. Unfortunately, there is no "new way". Have you ever played "King of the Hill"? I'm not talking about a video game, I mean when you were a kid, you found a hill or mound or whatever and you fought it out who could get to the top of the hill, and maintain that position.

That's geopolitics at basic. There's no difference between that child's game and geopolitics. There's always gonna be a "King of the Hill" game between nations. What nation gets the pinnacle and maintains it is what it's all about. Preferably, there's some kind of understanding where nations don't compete anymore, but what are the chances of that happening?

[W*GS]

How do nations "compete"?

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE]war is the result of failed diplomacy ...........

Yup. I'll take this opportunity to point out that GWB had the world in the palm of his hand on 9/11, and f'd it up so bad it's unbelievable that anybody could f up such a gift. All GWB had to do was make a speech saying, "Look at what happened, this can happen in many places besides NY. Let's get together as a united force and marginalize this problem."

9/11 was a salient point in history, and the wrong leader was in charge. The ramifications from that misuse of leadership haven't even come to fruition. That fool f'd that up so badly, I don't know a word to describe it.

we didnt need to go into Iraq , there was no beef , dont you think it is odd , Al Qadea is stronger now then 2 years ago and in Pakistan ?
Bin Ladden and the rest want us in Iraq , Al Qadea sends in a token force to keep us occupied , And Bush is stupid enough to stay the course .........

Since you bring it up, it was interesting to see how ignorant GWB is when he mentioned in his "interim" report to the Congress how a big deal is some of the tribal Sunni leaders in Anbar Province are now sending militias to fight AL Quaeda alongside of US forces. That's a stupid deal if the object is to strengthen a central Iraqi govt and an Iraqi military. That introduces a Sunni militia into the mix. There's no positive in that, that's a negative.

Ah, hell, I don't know what the f is going on. This is one fubar of a deal. This is gonna take years to straighten out. We have to straighten it out somehow, we're obligated to do so now.

[baja]

[QUOTE=§Pide®;1646173]

Yup. I'll take this opportunity to point out that GWB had the world in the palm of his hand on 9/11, and f'd it up so bad it's unbelievable that anybody could f up such a gift. All GWB had to do was make a speech saying, "Look at what happened, this can happen in many places besides NY. Let's get together as a united force and marginalize this problem."

9/11 was a salient point in history, and the wrong leader was in charge. The ramifications from that misuse of leadership haven't even come to fruition. That fool f'd that up so badly, I don't know a word to describe it.


You are so right Cito.

Watching this all come down was like being in a nightmare. I was thinking where is the media? Where is the outrage? It was like a really bad B movie being played out in real time.

He could have not ****ed it up any more if he had a committee of genius' helping him get it as wrong as possible.

[That One Guy]

[QUOTE=§Pide®;1646173]

Yup. I'll take this opportunity to point out that GWB had the world in the palm of his hand on 9/11, and f'd it up so bad it's unbelievable that anybody could f up such a gift. All GWB had to do was make a speech saying, "Look at what happened, this can happen in many places besides NY. Let's get together as a united force and marginalize this problem."

9/11 was a salient point in history, and the wrong leader was in charge. The ramifications from that misuse of leadership haven't even come to fruition. That fool f'd that up so badly, I don't know a word to describe it.



Since you bring it up, it was interesting to see how ignorant GWB is when he mentioned in his "interim" report to the Congress how a big deal is some of the tribal Sunni leaders in Anbar Province are now sending militias to fight AL Quaeda alongside of US forces. That's a stupid deal if the object is to strengthen a central Iraqi govt and an Iraqi military. That introduces a Sunni militia into the mix. There's no positive in that, that's a negative.

Ah, hell, I don't know what the f is going on. This is one fubar of a deal. This is gonna take years to straighten out. We have to straighten it out somehow, we're obligated to do so now.

I think that kinda thing is what's keeping the country back. They've spent the last however many years allowing entire Iraqi Army units to maintain religious integrity to the point that the very popular Wolf Brigade of the Iraqi Special Police (I believe it is ISP, they work right along with the IA) goes around the country cleaning up when a fight breaks out but everytime they come through, it's a mess as Sunnis get kidnapped and imprisoned for BS claims. Only once they find a way to make the Sunnis work right beside the Shia will they come to any agreement and be happy. That's something they haven't been stressing and has held back any legitimate unification.

[TheDave]

Tough call. Unfortunately, there is no "new way". Have you ever played "King of the Hill"? I'm not talking about a video game, I mean when you were a kid, you found a hill or mound or whatever and you fought it out who could get to the top of the hill, and maintain that position.

That's geopolitics at basic. There's no difference between that child's game and geopolitics. There's always gonna be a "King of the Hill" game between nations. What nation gets the pinnacle and maintains it is what it's all about. Preferably, there's some kind of understanding where nations don't compete anymore, but what are the chances of that happening?

Sorry boss, but you lost me here. For this to be a comparitive there would have to be a war between the "King of the hill" and number 2 or 3. Well, there hasn't been a war between superpowers since WWII. Us beating up on Iraq,Vietnam, or Korea isn't anymore of a competition than a heaveyweight bout between Tyson and "mini me" . Our country has a military that is over 1,000X all of those countries combined.

For the most part this competition is being played out is is in the financial realm. I have no problem competing toe to toe with the with the big dogs... I just don't think we need to slaughter each other in the mean time.

[Cito Pelon]

That is a risk i'm always willing to take... "Premptive war" is a horse **** euphamism used to condone killing 1,000's of people... Period.

How ya doin, Dave? I hope all is well with you and yours. Same as I wish best wishes to Spide, Baja, LABF, cah. These are tough issues. What the f are we gonna do? Maybe take a breather and have a laugh? One has to do that often.

[TheDave]

How ya doin, Dave? I hope all is well with you and yours. Same as I wish best wishes to Spide, Baja, LABF, cah. These are tough issues. What the f are we gonna do? Maybe take a breather and have a laugh? One has to do that often.

All is good boss... best to you and your's also ^5

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE=Cito Pelon;1646369]

I think that kinda thing is what's keeping the country back. They've spent the last however many years allowing entire Iraqi Army units to maintain religious integrity to the point that the very popular Wolf Brigade of the Iraqi Special Police (I believe it is ISP, they work right along with the IA) goes around the country cleaning up when a fight breaks out but everytime they come through, it's a mess as Sunnis get kidnapped and imprisoned for BS claims. Only once they find a way to make the Sunnis work right beside the Shia will they come to any agreement and be happy. That's something they haven't been stressing and has held back any legitimate unification.

I figure the Iraqis have to decide they want to work together to keep their nation intact. They do have a nation, and they need to realize if they don't compromise between Kurds, Baathist, and Shiites they'll be eaten up eventually by their cutthroat Muslim brothers Syria, Turkey, Iran. The Iraqi nation as it now stands is gonna be cut up into pieces once the US leaves. And the US will leave them on their own by New Years Day 2009. Those cards are played already.

So the Iraqis make their own future or get cut up. Maliki and one of his minsters stated today they're badasses. That's fine with me. Glad to hear it. Make a nation, Maliki.

[That One Guy]

How ya doin, Dave? I hope all is well with you and yours. Same as I wish best wishes to Spide, Baja, LABF, cah. These are tough issues. What the f are we gonna do? Maybe take a breather and have a laugh? One has to do that often.

That is very important. I just got back from Texas Roadhouse so I'm in a dandy mood. If only we had a good Mock thread to browse...

[That One Guy]

[QUOTE=cah412;1646380]

I figure the Iraqis have to decide they want to work together to keep their nation intact. They do have a nation, and they need to realize if they don't compromise between Kurds, Baathist, and Shiites they'll be eaten up eventually by their cutthroat Muslim brothers Syria, Turkey, Iran. The Iraqi nation as it now stands is gonna be cut up into pieces once the US leaves. And the US will leave them on their own by New Years Day 2009. Those cards are played already.

So the Iraqis make their own future or get cut up. Maliki and one of his minsters stated today they're badasses. That's fine with me. Glad to hear it. Make a nation, Maliki.

I don't doubt the Iraqis can handle themselves once we leave. Unfortunately, handle will be in the form of 30 years of repressed angers that the Shia majority will be enacting on the Sunnis that had been in power. The Shia will light up the rest of the country and then things will settle down, relatively. I think the fight is essentially between the Shia and Sunni, the Shia don't mind the Kurds too much. The issue with the Kurds will be whether Turkey actually goes after em. If they do that, all hell breaks loose again. That's ironic I guess... the ones that want us gone the most and have for the longest is the Sunnis who will be slaughtered once we're gone.

[baja]

That is very important. I just got back from Texas Roadhouse so I'm in a dandy mood. If only we had a good Mock thread to browse...

L O L

I see that you are a decent guy I will refrain from the "stupid" remarks in the future.

[That One Guy]

L O L

I see that you are a decent guy I will refrain from the "stupid" remarks in the future.

I'd appreciate it. We can all just save them for our president and everyone will be happy. Unless of course the president browses these threads... hmm... which poster here would be the president... I'll have to think about that one.

[baja]

I'd appreciate it. We can all just save them for our president and everyone will be happy. Unless of course the president browses these threads... hmm... <b>which poster here would be the president...</b> I'll have to think about that one.

Funny I was just thinking that would have to be you.

You sound just like him at times.

[Cito Pelon]

Sorry boss, but you lost me here. For this to be a comparitive there would have to be a war between the "King of the hill" and number 2 or 3. Well, there hasn't been a war between superpowers since WWII. Us beating up on Iraq,Vietnam, or Korea isn't anymore of a competition than a heaveyweight bout between Tyson and "mini me" . Our country has a military that is over 1,000X all of those countries combined.

For the most part this competition is being played out is is in the financial realm. I have no problem competing toe to toe with the with the big dogs... I just don't think we need to slaughter each other in the mean time.

Yeah, but the superpowers are still competing through client states. The Big Three - China, Russia, the US - are still carving out spheres of influence. Those three can't cooperate. Too bad, since that is what it will take to stabilize the planet. It's also too bad France decided to be an island.

[baja]

Yeah, but the superpowers are still competing through client states. The Big Three - China, Russia, the US - are still carving out spheres of influence. Those three can't cooperate. Too bad, since that is what it will take to stabilize the planet. It's also too bad France decided to be an island.

Cito I finally got in the que for Mars!!

[That One Guy]

Funny I was just thinking that would have to be you.

You sound just like him at times.

Ouch! That's rough... I don't even know if he can spell, at least I can generally spell correctly.

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE=Cito Pelon;1646369]

I think that kinda thing is what's keeping the country back. They've spent the last however many years allowing entire Iraqi Army units to maintain religious integrity to the point that the very popular Wolf Brigade of the Iraqi Special Police (I believe it is ISP, they work right along with the IA) goes around the country cleaning up when a fight breaks out but everytime they come through, it's a mess as Sunnis get kidnapped and imprisoned for BS claims. Only once they find a way to make the Sunnis work right beside the Shia will they come to any agreement and be happy. That's something they haven't been stressing and has held back any legitimate unification.

There is no trust, no sense of national unity in Iraq. I believe they figure the best deal right now is to split into three pieces.

Well, maybe that is too hasty to figure that. The Kurds do not have certain control of the oil region in the north around Kirkuk. The Shiites have certain control of the south, but I seriously doubt if they trust Iran to share the Shaat al Arab.

The best deal is for the Iraqis to maintain their borders on their own. Their neighbors are not their friends at all. They'll seize Iraqi territory in a heartbeat. They'll divide Iraq in the blink of an eye. I was heartened to see Maliki and one of his ministers state that they're badasses. Make it work, Maliki.

[Cito Pelon]

Funny I was just thinking that would have to be you.

You sound just like him at times.

Get outta here. I think I should be President. Then I'd straighten you pricks out. Oh yeah, The World According to Cito. You'd love it, no problem.

Let's practice:

One, two, three: Cito!
One, two, three: Cito!
One, two, three: Cito!

Spread the word. I'm a benevolent ruler.

[Cito Pelon]

Cito I finally got in the que for Mars!!

What is that supposed to mean?

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE=Cito Pelon;1646153]

[QUOTE]No, I don't have any demons but I do know that my unit went over with the intent that we were coming home alive and whatever happened in the process of us getting home was between us.

Well, I can't argue with that. I'd have the same intent, I know I would.

I knew one guy that said if he ever got attacked from a house and they sent him in to raid that house rather than just blow it up from outside, anyone inside was dead.

Actually, that guy if he was willing to bust into a house he was taking fire from would have been a good comrade. That would need some balls. Some folks will say that's wanton killing, I'd say that's what a soldier is trained and expected to do. Which is why I say folks have to be careful about what they send soldiers to do. That is what soldiers do, they kill people, and there is no way on this earth that all they kill are combatants. Just no way, so folks that cheer for war have to realize that. Trouble is, they think it's like a game, where you can shut it off any time you please.

Would I have turned him in for killing people that would've simply been guilty of being the father, mother, brother, or sister of a bad guy? Nope, they let him conduct the attack so their guilt is between them and their maker. Would I have waxed an entire house for someone shooting at me? I'd like to think not, but I wouldn't turn someone in for it.

Tough call. I guess if one has a score to settle they'd think differently.

When someone feels their life is in danger and goes into self preservation mode, who are we to judge that person?

Agreed. And whomever puts them in that position cavalierly if that is the case should be hung by the neck until dead.

[baja]

What is that supposed to mean?

I think I misspelled the word.

I was joking about your desire to colonize Mars.

[Cito Pelon]

I think I misspelled the word.

I was joking about your desire to colonize Mars.

You were trying to bait me again? I don't know what your problem is, but I got tired of it long ago.

[baja]

Dude please it really was just a joke. i thought some of your takes about space exploration were well out there. Honestly I am not trying to bait you at all.

Peace bro.

And Na Nu Na Nu ;D

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE=Cito Pelon;1646392]

I don't doubt the Iraqis can handle themselves once we leave. Unfortunately, handle will be in the form of 30 years of repressed angers that the Shia majority will be enacting on the Sunnis that had been in power. The Shia will light up the rest of the country and then things will settle down, relatively. I think the fight is essentially between the Shia and Sunni, the Shia don't mind the Kurds too much. The issue with the Kurds will be whether Turkey actually goes after em. If they do that, all hell breaks loose again. That's ironic I guess... the ones that want us gone the most and have for the longest is the Sunnis who will be slaughtered once we're gone.

There's plenty of scores to settle. I guess the object right now is to prevent the Turks and the Syrians from grabbing chunks of Iraqi territory. I trust the Persians, I believe they will honor an agreement made, but the agreement has to be made ahead of the withdrawal. The Persians are a practical people, and being sandwiched between Afghanistan and Iraq, they are certainly willing to make some deals. There is another window of opportunity to make some deals right now with the Persians before all hell breaks loose.

[Cito Pelon]

Dude please it really was just a joke. i thought some of your takes about space exploration were well out there. Honestly I am not trying to bait you at all.

Peace bro.

And Na Nu Na Nu ;D

I figure you don't know what the f your talking about most of the time, you gadfly around too much. When you were focused on Castaneda you were almost on the cusp. Then you took a turn that made no sense. Your political opinions have been consistent, everything else you don't know what you want to accomplish.

[baja]

Well that's good because I come here to unwind. Just read the more focused posters if that is what you come here for but in reading your posts I would say you description of me is in the park for you too.

[baja]

You sure are touchy about Mars.

he he

Quick name a Boston Red Sox player from the 1957 team.

[Cito Pelon]

You sure are touchy about Mars.

he he

Quick name a Boston Red Sox player from the 1957 team.

You'd know that, eh, seeings how your'e the only poster that busts my chops about it. Jeez, I figured if anybody would get the picture it would be you. You're scared of the picture. Maybe Clav can get it.

[baja]

How would I get it I am a ranting unfocused poster remember or is that the criteria.

Seriously Cito I think we can and do change realities thousands and thousands of time in out eternal beingness and going to Mars is akin to a Mock rant compared to T S Elliott poem.

We already do greater things (if only we knew) than colonizing Mars and if and when we do go there it will be by implosion not explosion.

[That One Guy]

[QUOTE=cah412;1646397]

There's plenty of scores to settle. I guess the object right now is to prevent the Turks and the Syrians from grabbing chunks of Iraqi territory. I trust the Persians, I believe they will honor an agreement made, but the agreement has to be made ahead of the withdrawal. The Persians are a practical people, and being sandwiched between Afghanistan and Iraq, they are certainly willing to make some deals. There is another window of opportunity to make some deals right now with the Persians before all hell breaks loose.

See, I think something like an invasion may also be what's needed to bring the country together. Right now there's some of the country wanting to cash in on the US presence but there's more of the country that wants nothing to do with us and there's the last fraction that actually wants to kill every American there. While it may only be temporary, I think they could all unify against an invader trying to take over the country. I honestly think the internal threats to Iraq grossly outweigh the external threats, though. Especially as long as they're still under the watchful eye of the world to see if the mock-government we've installed actually succeeds.

[TailgateNut]

[QUOTE=Cito Pelon;1646516]

See, I think something like an invasion may also be what's needed to bring the country together. Right now there's some of the country wanting to cash in on the US presence but there's more of the country that wants nothing to do with us and there's the last fraction that actually wants to kill every American there. While it may only be temporary, I think they could all unify against an invader trying to take over the country. I honestly think the internal threats to Iraq grossly outweigh the external threats, though. Especially as long as they're still under the watchful eye of the world to see if the mock-government we've installed actually succeeds.

All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.

Did our invasion bring this country together. BIG FAT NO! It divided them.

So, how would another invasion magically unite them? Especially now that we have destroyed their country, have dismantled their military and security forces and collapsed their infrastructure.

[That One Guy]

[QUOTE=cah412;1646773]

All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.

Did our invasion bring this country together. BIG FAT NO! It divided them.

So, how would another invasion magically unite them? Especially now that we have destroyed their country, have dismantled their military and security forces and collapsed their infrastructure.

All the forces are in place. They just know they're being babysat so they generally don't care. Nothing brings people together like a true invading country. Some Iraqis looked forward to Americans invading but a neighboring Arab nation wouldn't get the same welcome. Even if they didn't want Americans in their country, Iraqis knew it would be a waste to militarily resist. It wasn't until the 2nd year of the war when the insurgency really started taking off. There's no Middle East nation that carries that same kinda threat if they were invading.

[Atlas]

I have witnessed many of the same type of things. I saw a gun truck run a cab off the road killing a 2 year old boy. His reason was that he felt his safety was threatened. The same place a week later the same convoy we were attacked. He used this as a reason why he did what he did.... OF course he never put together the fact that we were attacked probably because of what he did the previous week. It's just a downward spiral.

[Rigs11]

Winning the Iraqis hearts and minds..


Marine testimony: All Iraqi men viewed as insurgents

CAMP PENDLETON, California (AP) -- A corporal testifying in a court-martial said Marines in his unit began routinely beating Iraqis after officers ordered them to "crank up the violence level."

Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo testified Saturday at the murder trial of Cpl. Trent D. Thomas.

"We were told to crank up the violence level," said Lopezromo, testifying for the defense.

When a juror asked for further explanation, Lopezromo said: "We beat people, sir."

Within weeks of allegedly being scolded, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman went out late one night to find and kill a suspected insurgent in the village of Hamdaniya near the Abu Ghraib prison. The Marines and corpsman were from 2nd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment.

Lopezromo said the suspected insurgent was known to his neighbors as the "prince of jihad," and had been arrested several times and later released by the Iraqi legal system.

Unable to find him, the Marines and corpsman dragged another man from his house, fatally shot him, and then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to make it appear he had been killed in a shootout, according to court testimony.

Four Marines and the corpsman, initially charged with murder in the April 2006 killing, have pleaded guilty to reduced charges and been given jail sentences ranging from 10 months to eight years. Thomas, 25, from St. Louis, Missouri, pleaded guilty but withdrew his plea and is the first defendant to go to court-martial.

Lopezromo, who was not part of the squad on its late-night mission, said he saw nothing wrong with what Thomas did.

"I don't see it as an execution, sir," he told the judge. "I see it as killing the enemy."

He said Marines consider all Iraqi men part of the insurgency.

Lopezromo and two other Marines were charged in August with assaulting an Iraqi two weeks before the killing that led to charges against Thomas and the others. Charges against all three were later dropped.

Thomas' attorneys have said he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury from his combat duty in Falluja in 2004. They have argued that Thomas believed he was following a lawful order to get tougher with suspected insurgents.

Prosecution witnesses testified that Thomas shot the 52-year-old man at point-blank range after he had already been shot by other Marines and was lying on the ground.

Lopezromo said a procedure called "dead-checking" was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified.

"If somebody is worth shooting once, they're worth shooting twice," he said.

The jury is composed of three officers and six enlisted personnel, all of whom have served in Iraq. The trial was set to resume Monday. E-mail to a friend E-mail to a friend

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/07/15/marines.iraq.ap/index.html

[freak6]

Wow.

Unbelievable testimony.

And I know that Corporal isn't just saying that to try and get someone off. That is Standard Operational Procedure over there.

Why?

The enemy does not wear a uniform, and after seeing a Iraqi thanking you for candy one day, planting an IED another, next week your best friend is blown up, and then you do 2 more 9 month tours of this stuff...

You start to reach a breaking point...

[That One Guy]

Wow.

Unbelievable testimony.

And I know that Corporal isn't just saying that to try and get someone off. That is Standard Operational Procedure over there.

Why?

The enemy does not wear a uniform, and after seeing a Iraqi thanking you for candy one day, planting an IED another, next week your best friend is blown up, and then you do 2 more 9 month tours of this stuff...

You start to reach a breaking point...


Great post. Unfortunately soldiers (and Marines) are fighting war while politicians are trying to make friends with the population.

[baja]

Great post. Unfortunately soldiers (and Marines) are fighting war while politicians are trying to make friends with the population.

Oh so now it is a war. Thought you said it was a, what did you call it, police action and that the real war was yet to happen. Try to stay consistent from thread to thread.

[Northman]

Cant blame them. Terrorists dont wear uniforms and thus blends in with the Iraqi crowd. Its complete chaos over there when it comes to who you can trust and who you cant.

[Bronco Bob]

Reminds me of those old cowboy movies where the cowboys would say
"The only good Injun is a dead Injun."

[baja]

Cant blame them. Terrorists dont wear uniforms and thus blends in with the Iraqi crowd. Its complete chaos over there when it comes to who you can trust and who you cant.

I agree, you really can't fully blame the troops on the ground. The blame rests at the top of the command, Bushco landed those troops with an plan that basically consisted of;

Get over there and bring me a democracy boys

[TheDave]

I agree, you really can't fully blame the troops on the ground. The blame rests at the top of the command, Bushco landed those troops with an plan that basically consisted of;

Get over there and bring me a democracy boys

"...While protecting the oil and contractors from a civil war"

[baja]

"...While protecting the oil and contractors from a civil war"

You're right and you think this same group is incapable of a false flag attack to further their agenda? Wake up and smell the coffee Dave.

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE]How would I get it I am a ranting unfocused poster remember or is that the criteria.

Well, you're casting around trying to hook onto something, and that's fine. You don't buy into what I'm selling, and that's fine. Why you figure you have to ridicule something you have no conception of doesn't make sense, though.

[baja]

Cito I apologize I see I have hit a nerve.

I thought you knew that I believe all things are possible and collectively we have a very limited awareness of the awesomeness and possibilities of life.

I believe that what man can think he can do.

[Cito Pelon]

[QUOTE=TailgateNut;1646777]

All the forces are in place. They just know they're being babysat so they generally don't care. Nothing brings people together like a true invading country. Some Iraqis looked forward to Americans invading but a neighboring Arab nation wouldn't get the same welcome. Even if they didn't want Americans in their country, Iraqis knew it would be a waste to militarily resist. It wasn't until the 2nd year of the war when the insurgency really started taking off. There's no Middle East nation that carries that same kinda threat if they were invading.

Granted. Outside forces can fool around all they want in that region, but the dynamic in that region is tribal. They have scores to settle that have stood for 3000 years, and the best bet is to marginalize the whole dang region. How to do it is the issue. And what an issue it is. I know how to do it, but it will take a united stand from the Big Five of the UN Security Council. That would do it.

[Cito Pelon]

Wow.

Unbelievable testimony.

And I know that Corporal isn't just saying that to try and get someone off. That is Standard Operational Procedure over there.

Why?

The enemy does not wear a uniform, and after seeing a Iraqi thanking you for candy one day, planting an IED another, next week your best friend is blown up, and then you do 2 more 9 month tours of this stuff...

You start to reach a breaking point...

"Start to reach a breaking point?" Hell, combat is the breaking point. Folks don't realize that once you send troops into combat every ugly thing that one can imagine will happen. It's a given. All this that we've seen in Iraq was a given from the day the decision was made. What irritates me is so many folks are pissed off about it now when they were so willing to jump ugly in 2003.

[baja]

"Start to reach a breaking point?" Hell, combat is the breaking point. Folks don't realize that once you send troops into combat every ugly thing that one can imagine will happen. It's a given. All this that we've seen in Iraq was a given from the day the decision was made. What irritates me is so many folks are pissed off about it now when they were so willing to jump ugly in 2003.

Word!