When Criminals Need Guns, They Go to the Gun Shop

[Bronco_Beerslug]

How convenient for the thieves and murders in the country.

---------------------------------------------------------
Gun shops under closer scrutiny (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070713/ap_on_re_us/policing_gun_stores_8;_ylt=AlwmTs0ostLdWLrmupcORmA E1vAI)

By DAVID B. CARUSO, Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK - When criminals need guns, they have plenty of options in a country with nearly 100,000 licensed gun stores. But drug dealers and other crooks don't shop just anywhere. They have their favorites.

In Compton, Calif., gangsters preferred Boulevard Sales & Service, a shop police said was so felon-friendly, some salesmen offered tips on how to buy a gun despite a criminal record.

In Philadelphia, shady gun buyers sent girlfriends to a suburban pawn shop, Lou's Loan, where the staff wouldn't raise a fuss if a young woman came by a few times a month to purchase cheap handguns.

And on the outskirts of New Orleans, killers-to-be armed themselves at Elliot's Gun Shop. Over the past five years, the store was the source of 2,300 weapons later linked to crime, including an astonishing 125 homicides, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

In fact, government figures show that an extremely small number of gun shops account for a spectacularly large number of weapons used in crimes.

Stores like these have long occupied protected territory. The products they sell are legal. Congress has sheltered them from lawsuits and limited the power of regulators. It can take years for the ATF to revoke a dealer's license.

But there are signs that scrutiny is on the rise.

Over the past three years, ATF agents have cracked down on some of the stores most notorious for selling large numbers of weapons used in street crime. In 2005 and 2006, some 220 firearms dealers had their licenses revoked — 20 more than in the previous eight years combined.

More than two dozen stores have also been hit with lawsuits, most notably by the city of New York, where Mayor Michael Bloomberg has made gun control a talking point of what could be a nascent presidential campaign.

The pickup in enforcement action has delighted gun-control groups — and dismayed Second Amendment advocates, who say law-abiding merchants are being driven out of business.

"I've never run into a situation where a dealer has intentionally violated the law," said Richard Gardiner, a Virginia lawyer who represents gun dealers. If guns are being bought at these stores by criminals, "it is because they are being exploited by people who know how to beat the system."

Gun-control advocates, though encouraged by an increase in scrutiny, believe the government is still doing too little. The number of shops disciplined by the government, they say, represents just a fraction of those that aren't playing by the rules.

"There are bad apples out there," said Brady Center attorney Daniel Vice. "ATF knows who they are. The manufacturers know who they are. But most of them are still operating."

CONT.

[W*GS]

Of course, to the Brady cabal and the other gun haters, all gun shops are "bad apples"...

[W*GS]

BTW, straw purchases are already illegal.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with going after skanky gun shops. However, those on the gun-fearing side of the issue will try to make the government go after all gun shops, which won't work, and merely reveals the gun-haters for what they are - pro-criminal scumbags.

[mosca]

And if gun shops are banned, they'll get their guns from the black market. What's new in the world?

[Florida_Bronco]

BTW, straw purchases are already illegal.

Yep, and those shops who knowingly sell guns illegally should be punished as such. I don't see where the big relevation is here.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Of course, to the Brady cabal and the other gun haters, all gun shops are "bad apples"...You just can't stand it when it's pointed out how easy it is for criminals to arm themselves in this country, can you? How come the NRA and their gun fanatics aren't out in front on this issue?
And if gun shops are banned, they'll get their guns from the black market. What's new in the world?Oh please.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You just can't stand it when it's pointed out how easy it is for criminals to arm themselves in this country, can you? How come the NRA and their gun fanatics aren't out in front on this issue?


If W*GS ever took over Paul Tagliabue's job, his first act as NFL Commissioner would be to get rid of the rules and the refs.

:D

[Bronco_Beerslug]

If W*GS ever took over Paul Tagliabue's job, his first act as NFL Commissioner would be to get rid of the rules and the refs.
:D:~ohyah!:

I just fail to see why enacting uniform firearm purchase laws across the country to prevent scenarios just like this one and Cho scares the gun lobby. In fact, they should be actively involved in forming common sense firearm sales laws.

[Garcia Bronco]

Guns are neccessary for protection. Just look at what happened in New Orleans when social order decayed in day.

[Florida_Bronco]

:~ohyah!:

I just fail to see why enacting uniform firearm purchase laws across the country to prevent scenarios just like this one and Cho scares the gun lobby. In fact, they should be actively involved in forming common sense firearm sales laws.

We already have the laws, the problem is enforcing them. The background check system needs to be improved and made faster though.

[W*GS]

You just can't stand it when it's pointed out how easy it is for criminals to arm themselves in this country, can you?

Ummm, you've got that exactly wrong. It's you and your ilk who think that by over-regulating or eliminating all legitimate channels for purchasing firearms, criminals will be disarmed. The laws to get the skanky gun shops are already on the books - they merely need to be enforced. Passing more laws isn't necessary.

How come the NRA and their gun fanatics aren't out in front on this issue?

We are, dope. The NRA is always insisting that current gun laws are enforced.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Ummm, you've got that exactly wrong. It's you and your ilk who think that by over-regulating or eliminating all legitimate channels for purchasing firearms, criminals will be disarmed. The laws to get the skanky gun shops are already on the books - they merely need to be enforced. Passing more laws isn't necessary. Reading comprehension not yet awake this AM? But I forgot, to you any common sense or logic when it comes to sensible firearm sales legislation is nothing more than an attempt to take your gun from you. And all the exisisting sales laws are just fine, right (see Cho)?

We are, dope. The NRA is always insisting that current gun laws are enforced.:rofl:
Like the ones that allow mentally defective humans instant access to firearms?

[Bronco Bob]

Guns are neccessary for protection. Just look at what happened in New Orleans when social order decayed in day.

Yeah, you had criminals with guns shooting at rescue helicopters.
I guess those criminals needed to protect themselves from the people
trying to rescue the sick and drowning.

[Spider]

bunch of **** ........

[W*GS]

I just fail to see why enacting uniform firearm purchase laws across the country to prevent scenarios just like this one and Cho scares the gun lobby.

As has been pointed out, the laws are already written. They're just not enforced as they should be.

In fact, they should be actively involved in forming common sense firearm sales laws.

This language is right out of the anti-gunners' PR screed. What they call "common sense" really means "no gun purchases by anyone, ever".

[W*GS]

If W*GS ever took over Paul Tagliabue's job, his first act as NFL Commissioner would be to get rid of the rules and the refs.

Explain to me how criminals in your world will suddenly begin obeying the law.

[Spider]

If W*GS ever took over Paul Tagliabue's job, his first act as NFL Commissioner would be to get rid of the rules and the refs.

:D

LOL This I agree with , and claims W*GS he inst an anarchist

[W*GS]

LOL This I agree with , and claims W*GS he inst an anarchist

See

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1644786&postcount=16

[Bronco Bob]

As has been pointed out, the laws are already written. They're just not enforced as they should be.



How would you enforce the laws differently than what the ATF is doing in
the lead article that Beerslug posted? Detail your scenario for the ATF
enforcing the current gun laws to keep drugs dealers, muggers, car jackers,
and people like Cho from getting guns.

[Spider]

How would you enforce the laws differently than what the ATF is doing in
the lead article that Beerslug posted? Detail your scenario for the ATF
enforcing the current gun laws to keep drugs dealers, muggers, car jackers,
and people like Cho from getting guns.

;D in W*GS world , W*GS pulls out a gun kills all the Bad guys and we all live happily ever after

[W*GS]

Read the entire article, not just Beerslug's excerpt of it. NYC's tactics in some instances have not made the ATF happy.

[W*GS]

;D in W*GS world , W*GS pulls out a gun kills all the Bad guys and we all live happily ever after

In your world, the "Bad guys" obey the law.

[Spider]

W*GS by day light a mild mannered weatherman ,but at night , when a cry for help is shouted , W*GS turns into ........Super Ted Nugent , Charlton Heston , crime fighter , pulling his gun and fighting Injustice ........

[Bronco Bob]

Read the entire article, not just Beerslug's excerpt of it. NYC's tactics in some instances have not made the ATF happy.

Is this directed to me? W*gs, please attempt to answers a question directly
once in your life. How would you enforce the laws differently than what the
ATF is trying to do in the article Beerslug posted. What does Bloomberg have
to do with the question I asked?

[W*GS]

How would you enforce the laws differently than what the ATF is doing in the lead article that Beerslug posted?

I wouldn't - however, we have to tread carefully so that the RKBA isn't violated. Would you feel comfortable with (say) a bookstore keeping a record of what books you've purchased for later perusal by the State?

Detail your scenario for the ATF enforcing the current gun laws to keep drugs dealers, muggers, car jackers, and people like Cho from getting guns.

For one thing, the laws against straw purchases are already there - and if you read the article, you'll see that almost all gun shops enforce those laws. Also, if you believe that "drugs dealers, muggers, car jackers" depend on gun shops to get their guns, I've got a bridge to sell you.

As for Cho, that was a mistake in VA law. But again, we need to be careful - it's not clear to me that a given individual's interaction with a mental health facility or doctor automatically rescinds that individual's RKBA. In Cho's case, his mental problems should have prevented him from getting his weapons.

[Bronco Bob]

For one thing, the laws against straw purchases are already there - and if you read the article, you'll see that almost all gun shops enforce those laws. Also, if you believe that "drugs dealers, muggers, car jackers" depend on gun shops to get their guns, I've got a bridge to sell you.


Maybe you should sell it to the ATF instead, because going by the article,
that's precisely what the ATF believes.

{When criminals need guns, they have plenty of options in a country with nearly 100,000 licensed gun stores. But drug dealers and other crooks don't shop just anywhere. They have their favorites.

In Compton, Calif., gangsters preferred Boulevard Sales & Service, a shop police said was so felon-friendly, some salesmen offered tips on how to buy a gun despite a criminal record.

In Philadelphia, shady gun buyers sent girlfriends to a suburban pawn shop, Lou's Loan, where the staff wouldn't raise a fuss if a young woman came by a few times a month to purchase cheap handguns.

And on the outskirts of New Orleans, killers-to-be armed themselves at Elliot's Gun Shop. Over the past five years, the store was the source of 2,300 weapons later linked to crime, including an astonishing 125 homicides, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

In fact, government figures show that an extremely small number of gun shops account for a spectacularly large number of weapons used in crimes.}

[W*GS]

Like I said, read the entire article. It's not so cut-and-dried.

[Spider]

setting the scene ........ Late night , dark alley , some gorgeous , well endowed blonde , is walking in this alley ( for reasons unknown to the thinking public) all of the sudden 6 bad guys jump out from hiding behind a trash can after waiting all night for this opportunity ( the Bad guys are notorious for patience ) She screams for help , meanwhile across town W*GS ( mild mannered weather man by day , Super Nugent at night ) is on his computer arguing with Spider , W*GS hears the scream for help , grabs his gun and changes into his super hero outfit ...arrives in time to shoot all of the bad guys dead ......

[Bronco Bob]

setting the scene ........ Late night , dark alley , some gorgeous , well endowed blonde , is walking in this alley ( for reasons unknown to the thinking public) all of the sudden 6 bad guys jump out from hiding behind a trash can after waiting all night for this opportunity ( the Bad guys are notorious for patience ) She screams for help , meanwhile across town W*GS ( mild mannered weather man by day , Super Nugent at night ) is on his computer arguing with Spider , W*GS hears the scream for help , grabs his gun and changes into his super hero outfit ...arrives in time to shoot all of the bad guys dead ......

Yeah, but Batman can do the same thing (save the damsel) and he doesn't need a gun to do it.

[Spider]

Yeah, but Batman can do the same thing (save the damsel) and he doesn't need a gun to do it.

Super Nugent can kick batmans ass .......Batman doesnt respect the NRA ,or the war in Iraq , so god hates batman ...........

[Bronco Bob]

Super Nugent can kick batmans ass .......Batman doesnt respect the NRA ,or the war in Iraq , so god hates batman ...........

The only one who ever defeated Batman was Bane, and Super Nugent
is no Bane. Batman not only doesn't respect the NRA, Batman hates
guns and the people who use them. I don't recall Batman having
much regard for god one way or the other either. :thumbsup:

[Spider]

The only one who ever defeated Batman was Bane, and Super Nugent
is no Bane. Batman not only doesn't respect the NRA, Batman hates
guns and the people who use them. I don't recall Batman having
much regard for god one way or the other either. :thumbsup:

I knew Bane , and I know Super Nugent , and Bane is no super Nugent :~ohyah!:

[Garcia Bronco]

Yeah, you had criminals with guns shooting at rescue helicopters.
I guess those criminals needed to protect themselves from the people
trying to rescue the sick and drowning.

You also had peopletrying ot defend themselves and their property.

[Spider]

You also had peopletrying ot defend themselves and their property.

shooting the flood waters .........I bet that was fun

[W*GS]

You've been reading too many comic books, Spider. But then again, perhaps literature with just words and no pictures is too tough for you.

[Spider]

You've been reading too many comic books, Spider. But then again, perhaps literature with just words and no pictures is too tough for you.

freaking ingrate , here I am sticking up for you , and you come back with this crap ? ......... it is daylight , you need to be in Mild Manner weatherman mode or something ........

[c_lazy_r]

Reading comprehension not yet awake this AM? But I forgot, to you any common sense or logic when it comes to sensible firearm sales legislation is nothing more than an attempt to take your gun from you. And all the exisisting sales laws are just fine, right (see Cho)?
:rofl:
Like the ones that allow mentally defective humans instant access to firearms?

Can "mentally defective humans" buy a car?

In 2000, approximately 4 times as many people were killed in car accidents than by murder with a gun. I'm sure the statistics are reasonably comparable in more recent years but I was too lazy to look.

Where is the real danger?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Can "mentally defective humans" buy a car?
In 2000, approximately 4 times as many people were killed in car accidents than by murder with a gun. I'm sure the statistics are reasonably comparable in more recent years but I was too lazy to look.
Where is the real danger?Oh please, stooping to W*GS type deflection only puts you on the same fanatic level as him.

I'm waiting for ONE good reason why a person wanting to buy a handgun shouldn't have to wait 60 or 90 days and be thoroughly checked out before handing over a weapon to him.

[Spider]

Can "mentally defective humans" buy a car?

In 2000, approximately 4 times as many people were killed in car accidents than by murder with a gun. I'm sure the statistics are reasonably comparable in more recent years but I was too lazy to look.

Where is the real danger?

from my point of view , you could be one of them 99.9% of people in cars dont have the first clue about driving ........

[mosca]

Yeah, but Batman can do the same thing (save the damsel) and he doesn't need a gun to do it.
This isn't exactly on-topic, but originally, Batman actually was known to use a gun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(comic_book)#Maturity_of_content (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(comic_book)#Maturity_of_content)

"These early stories depicted a vengeful Batman, not hesitant to kill when he felt it necessary. In one of the early stories, he is depicted using a gun to stop a group of giant assailants."

[W*GS]

Oh please, stooping to W*GS type deflection only puts you on the same fanatic level as him.

Thanks for the compliment - you calling me a "fanatic" is like GHWB calling Dukakis a "card-carrying member of the ACLU". Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.

I'm waiting for ONE good reason why a person wanting to buy a handgun shouldn't have to wait 60 or 90 days and be thoroughly checked out before handing over a weapon to him.

Why 60 or 90 days? Why not six months? A year? Five years?

What sort of "thoroughly checked out" do you have in mind?

Let's say the person wanting to exercise their RKBA is doing so because of a vengeful ex-boyfriend or ex-husband who has made credible death threats. How many dead women would you tolerate?

[mosca]

You also had peopletrying ot defend themselves and their property.
Don't forget that the National Guard also began to confiscate guns from legal firearm owners in the aftermath of Katrina. It was a damn shame.

[Spider]

Don't forget that the National Guard also began to confiscate guns from legal firearm owners in the aftermath of Katrina. It was a damn shame.

as if havin gay flag burning illegals wasnt bad enough ........they take our guns who will shoot the flag burning illegal homos ?

[Spider]

Thanks for the compliment - you calling me a "fanatic" is like GHWB calling Dukakis a "card-carrying member of the ACLU". Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.



Why 60 or 90 days? Why not six months? A year? Five years?

What sort of "thoroughly checked out" do you have in mind?

Let's say the person wanting to exercise their RKBA is doing so because of a vengeful ex-boyfriend or ex-husband who has made credible death threats. How many dead women would you tolerate?
can we count the ones that voted for Bush and cant park ?

[c_lazy_r]

Oh please, stooping to W*GS type deflection only puts you on the same fanatic level as him.

I'm waiting for ONE good reason why a person wanting to buy a handgun shouldn't have to wait 60 or 90 days and be thoroughly checked out before handing over a weapon to him.

Fanatic? Who's the fanatic?

You paint the picture that all bad in the world is due to a lack of 3 month wait to buy a gun.

All I am trying to do is show that, from a real numbers standpoint, it is a substantially smaller problem than you would like to suggest.

They can take their 2-3 months and shove it, as far as I'm concerned. It WILL NOT reduce crime. Period.

[c_lazy_r]

from my point of view , you could be one of them 99.9% of people in cars dont have the first clue about driving ........

???

Lost me on that one.

[c_lazy_r]

Don't forget that the National Guard also began to confiscate guns from legal firearm owners in the aftermath of Katrina. It was a damn shame.

Never heard that.

[W*GS]

Never heard that.

I don't think it was the NG confiscating firearms, but the NO police. More info at

http://www.saf.org

about halfway down, under "SAF Stops New Orleans Gun Confiscation".

[c_lazy_r]

Guns are not the problem. They are inanimate objects.

Put the responsibility where it belongs, on the owner and user of the gun.

Law-abiding, responsible citizens should not need to ask anyone's permission or approval to engage in a peaceful, legal activity. Gun ownership, by itself, harms no other person.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Guns are not the problem. They are inanimate objects.
Put the responsibility where it belongs, on the owner and user of the gun.
Law-abiding, responsible citizens should not need to ask anyone's permission or approval to engage in a peaceful, legal activity. Gun ownership, by itself, harms no other person.Guns are most definitely a problem due in large part to the ease they are acquired by the criminals in this country. They don't care about your stiffer penalties etc...

Common sense laws (thorough background checks) would go a long ways to reducing that problem. The system as it now is broken.
Thanks for the compliment - you calling me a "fanatic" is like GHWB calling Dukakis a "card-carrying member of the ACLU". Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.
You are what you are, when it comes to firearms and deflection in debates like these, no denying that. You rarely answer questions you are asked instead deflecting on to something else, it's your trademark.

[c_lazy_r]

Guns are most definitely a problem due in large part to the ease they are acquired by the criminals in this country. They don't care about your stiffer penalties etc...

Common sense laws (thorough background checks) would go a long ways to reducing that problem. The system as it now is broken.



OK. Let's create a larger black market for them than currently exists.

We obviously disagree and we'll never see eye to eye on the matter so let's drop it and bash on Bush, talk football, etc. :approve:

[mosca]

I don't think it was the NG confiscating firearms, but the NO police. More info at

http://www.saf.org

about halfway down, under "SAF Stops New Orleans Gun Confiscation".
Apparently it was the NO Police and also the National Guard. Here's a video off of ABC World News:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sm5PC7z79-8"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sm5PC7z79-8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[Spider]

???

Lost me on that one.

you was talking about mental people driving cars , I dont know why , but you can take anyone you want , put them behind the wheel , and they become stupid , Rain man stupid .......

[Bronco_Beerslug]

OK. Let's create a larger black market for them than currently exists.
We obviously disagree and we'll never see eye to eye on the matter so let's drop it and bash on Bush, talk football, etc. :approve:Well, I don't know how making people wait a couple months would send all the criminals underground but if it did.....good!

I'm permitted for CC in 3 states so I'm not advocating keeping firearms from people who are law abiding and responsible.

[Garcia Bronco]

Never heard that.

I remember that. I wouldn't have given mine up, but they wouldn't have seen it anyway unless I was using it to defend my family or myself.

[W*GS]

You are what you are, when it comes to firearms and deflection in debates like these, no denying that. You rarely answer questions you are asked instead deflecting on to something else, it's your trademark.

How come you didn't answer my questions, and deflected to a personal attack?

[Garcia Bronco]

Well...my step-father and cousin were both killed by legal guns purchases and I still firmly believe in the RKBA.

Step Dad -

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1994/vp941116/11160461.htm

Cousin -

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/matthew_gwaltney/index.html


Edit: To elminate confusion for a couple of posters whom I have recently shared other personal information....my biological Dad died in 04 from the big D type 2. He was blind with no legs at that point.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

How come you didn't answer my questions, and deflected to a personal attack?It was in reply to your original personal attack knucklehead. 60 - 90 days would be a better time frame for a "cooling off period" and give gun shop owners and authorities sufficient time to screen purchases better than happens now.

[Florida_Bronco]

I'm waiting for ONE good reason why a person wanting to buy a handgun shouldn't have to wait 60 or 90 days and be thoroughly checked out before handing over a weapon to him.

Easy, because it's unnecessary and extremely excessive. I don't know about you, but if I decide to purchase a firearm I'm not going to pay my money and then wait 2-3 months before they hand me the weapon I purchased. I'll simply resort to purchasing from private citzens.

In your plan, what provisions do you have for law enforcement/military? What about concealed weapons permit holders? How many times do you enforce that waiting period? Do you only enforce it for the first handgun purchase or every handgun purchase? What about long guns?

I'll tell you exactly how I think it should be.

Let's look at this way. You don't have to prove your ability to drive a car to purchase one, you only have to prove that ability to drive the car on public streets. You can still purchase a car for use on your private property without a license. To me a gun is no different.

So here is how I think we should do this. You want to purchase a handgun? OK, go to your local gun store, pick out your gun and give them your money. The gun store will then run a national background check (the system should be fixed to take NO longer than 3 days, AT MOST) and when the check is complete, you come by and pick up your weapon. If you fail the check, the gun shop refunds your money. Now if you want to carry a handgun in public, take the concealed weapon permit class, get your license and you are good to go.

Now once someone has commited a crime that determines that they should not be allowed to own firearms, then they lose the right to purchase them at gun stores.

See how simple that is?

[W*GS]

It was in reply to your original personal attack knucklehead.

Thanks for the guffaw.

60 - 90 days would be a better time frame for a "cooling off period"

Straight from the gun-haters PR flak. "Cooling off period"? Bullshiite.

and give gun shop owners and authorities sufficient time to screen purchases better than happens now.

What sort of screening do you have in mind?

Does it concern you in the least that making the RKBA contingent on State approval eviscerates it to the point of meaninglessness? Imagine a 60 or 90 day waiting period on a letter to the editor... Would that satisfy the 1st Amendment protection on freedom of speech?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Easy, because it's unnecessary and extremely excessive. I don't know about you, but if I decide to purchase a firearm I'm not going to pay my money and then wait 2-3 months before they hand me the weapon I purchased. I'll simply resort to purchasing from private citzens.

In your plan, what provisions do you have for law enforcement/military? What about concealed weapons permit holders? How many times do you enforce that waiting period? Do you only enforce it for the first handgun purchase or every handgun purchase? What about long guns?

I'll tell you exactly how I think it should be.

Let's look at this way. You don't have to prove your ability to drive a car to purchase one, you only have to prove that ability to drive the car on public streets. You can still purchase a car for use on your private property without a license. To me a gun is no different.

So here is how I think we should do this. You want to purchase a handgun? OK, go to your local gun store, pick out your gun and give them your money. The gun store will then run a national background check (the system should be fixed to take NO longer than 3 days, AT MOST) and when the check is complete, you come by and pick up your weapon. If you fail the check, the gun shop refunds your money. Now if you want to carry a handgun in public, take the concealed weapon permit class, get your license and you are good to go.

Now once someone has commited a crime that determines that they should not be allowed to own firearms, then they lose the right to purchase them at gun stores.

See how simple that is?Renders your whole argument moot making that statement. The laws need to be changed because they are not working (not catching all the criminals or mental defectives now). And of course, every purchase should have the waiting period and background checks. There is no national database to check out everything that needs to be checked for firearm purchases. Creating one will costs tens of millions. And with the waiting period you would not pay for the firearm until you pass the checks.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

T
What sort of screening do you have in mind?

Does it concern you in the least that making the RKBA contingent on State approval eviscerates it to the point of meaninglessness? Imagine a 60 or 90 day waiting period on a letter to the editor... Would that satisfy the 1st Amendment protection on freedom of speech?

National database screening including all mental problems (hospital, court cases, etc...), arrests and court appearances, etc...

Letters to editor don't have any chance of putting a bullet in his/her head. And no, a waiting period doesn't eviscerate the RKBA.

[W*GS]

National database screening including all mental problems (hospital, court cases, etc...), arrests and court appearances, etc...

Whatever happened to doctor/patient confidentiality? If you go to see a psychiatrist, what impact does that have on your RKBA?

An arrest isn't proof of much of anything.

"Court appearances"? Be more specific.

So far, you seem to want the RKBA restricted to as few people as possible.

Letters to editor don't have any chance of putting a bullet in his/her head.

The pen is mightier than the sword.

And why assume that someone who purchases a firearm has murder in mind?

And no, a waiting period doesn't eviscerate the RKBA.

A 60 or 90 day waiting period sure as hell does.

[Florida_Bronco]

Renders your whole argument moot making that statement.

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you?

The laws need to be changed because they are not working (not catching all the criminals or mental defectives now)

You'll never catch all of them, obviously. You can only screen for those who are felons or mentally impared.

And of course, every purchase should have the waiting period and background checks.

I'm not a fan of waiting periods, but I could live with a couple days as a means to compromise. I agree we need background checks, obviously.

There is no national database to check out everything that needs to be checked for firearm purchases.

I'll have to look into what the current background checks consist of, but to my knowledge they do look at the national level. I'll call a couple local gun shops tommorrow to verify this.

If not, I believe there should be a system to check criminal backgrounds.

Creating one will costs tens of millions.

Is it worth it? Beats the alternative of letting people slip through the cracks right?

And with the waiting period you would not pay for the firearm until you pass the checks.

Is that YOUR idea, or how things would actually work out?

Oh and Slug, you never answered any of the questions I posed to you in my previous post. I'd certainly like to hear your views on them.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Whatever happened to doctor/patient confidentiality? If you go to see a psychiatrist, what impact does that have on your RKBA?
An arrest isn't proof of much of anything.
"Court appearances"? Be more specific.
So far, you seem to want the RKBA restricted to as few people as possible.You know as well as I do that the responsibility of owning firearms should entail voluntarily giving up that information.

The pen is mightier than the sword. Possibly, in an ordered world but in our violent country, firearm crimes and murders dominate our society.

And why assume that someone who purchases a firearm has murder in mind? Uh, look at our murder rate (from firearms....sickening)!!

A 60 or 90 day waiting period sure as hell does.No it doesn't.

[Florida_Bronco]

National database screening including all mental problems (hospital, court cases, etc...), arrests and court appearances, etc...

And how will you justify that? Mental problems I can understand (if it's a definite, certified problem) but what about the arrests and court appearances? Do you have the slightest idea the can of worms that would be opening. How do you determine if that would disqualify someone? WHO determines that? Who is gonna pay for it?

And no, a waiting period doesn't eviscerate the RKBA.

If you ask me, forcing me to subject to long waiting periods and having to answer for anything other than being a convicted felon or a certified mental issue, is infringing on my right to keep and bear arms. I will not stand for it, and luckily, I doubt many Americans will.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

:~ohyah!:

I just fail to see why enacting uniform firearm purchase laws across the country to prevent scenarios just like this one and Cho scares the gun lobby. In fact, they should be actively involved in forming common sense firearm sales laws.

Same here.

The proof is in the pudding.

The legislation that was in effect during the Clinton administration (i.e., the same legislation the pinhead rolled back) was working.

More Than Half a Million Felons, Fugitives and Domestic Abusers Denied Guns.

April 2000

Since the President (Clinton) signed the Brady Bill into law, more than 500,000 felons, fugitives and domestic abusers have been prevented from purchasing guns. And the historic 1994 Crime Bill banned 19 of the deadliest assault weapons and their copies, keeping assault weapons off our streets. The homicide rate dropped 7 percent in 1998 - almost entirely due to a decrease in homicides committed with guns. Since 1993, there has been a more than 35 percent drop in gun-related crime and a 57 percent decrease in juvenile gun homicide offenders.

Lowest Overall Crime Rate in 25 Years.

Under the Clinton-Gore Administration, America has experienced the longest continuous drop in crime on record. Violent crime rate fell 7 percent in 1998 and 27 percent since 1993. The murder rate is down more than 25 percent since 1993, its lowest point since 1967. The overall crime rate is the lowest in 25 years.

http://home.att.net/~jrhsc/jobwelldone.html

http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/crime.html

http://www.perkel.com/politics/clinton/accomp.htm

http://pearlyabraham.tripod.com/htmls/bill-legacy2.html

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And how will you justify that? Mental problems I can understand (if it's a definite, certified problem) but what about the arrests and court appearances? Do you have the slightest idea the can of worms that would be opening. How do you determine if that would disqualify someone? WHO determines that? Who is gonna pay for it? I have told you several times now the system is broken. There needs to be national law (uniform laws) for all states on who can buy firearms and who can't. The criteria set by Congress. IF, the NRA was really concerned about reducing gun crime in this country they would gladly volunteer to help shape this legislation.


If you ask me, forcing me to subject to long waiting periods and having to answer for anything other than being a convicted felon or a certified mental issue, is infringing on my right to keep and bear arms. I will not stand for it, and luckily, I doubt many Americans will.Yeah, you'd rather have the right for anyone to instantly buy weapons just for the sake of being able to do so regardless of what and who that process allowed to end up with firearms in their possession.

[W*GS]

You know as well as I do that the responsibility of owning firearms should entail voluntarily giving up that information.

What would qualify as a "mental problem" that would disallow a firearm purchase? Please be specific.

You didn't say much about what "arrests" and "court appearances" mean. Why not? For example, suppose I fight a bogus traffic ticket, i.e., I appear in traffic court. Would that be flagged as a "court appearance"? How much information would be included?

Possibly, in an ordered world but in our violent country, firearm crimes and murders dominate our society.

(That "ordered world" phrase is very telling!)

I don't think firearm crimes and murders "dominate" our society - any more than child pornography "dominates" the 'Net. Besides, compared to Europe, Japan, and China, we have had a very peaceful society over the last hundred years or so.

Uh, look at our murder rate (from firearms....sickening)!!

Interestingly, as restrictive firearms laws have been changed, and more people are getting concealed-carry permits, the murder rate hasn't changed much. How do you explain that?

No it doesn't.

According to just you.

Here's a deal - I'll accept as many restrictions on my RKBA as you will accept on abortion. Would you find a 60-day or 90-day "cooling off" period acceptable? Or a background check that includes all the things you listed, before a woman could get an abortion?

[W*GS]

Since the President (Clinton) signed the Brady Bill into law, more than 500,000 felons, fugitives and domestic abusers have been prevented from purchasing guns.

How many of those 500,000 denials were in error? Of those that were not, how many were charged, prosecuted, and imprisoned? Attempting to purchase a firearm when prohibited from doing so is a felony. Where are these 500,000 prisoners?

And the historic 1994 Crime Bill banned 19 of the deadliest assault weapons and their copies, keeping assault weapons off our streets.

Never mind "assault weapon" is a very poorly-defined term (but sure to keep the anti-gunners in the money from ignorant fearful folk) and that these 19 weapons were "banned" (not really) based on appearance, not function.

The homicide rate dropped 7 percent in 1998 - almost entirely due to a decrease in homicides committed with guns. Since 1993, there has been a more than 35 percent drop in gun-related crime and a 57 percent decrease in juvenile gun homicide offenders.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Check out "Freakonomics" for an interesting take on the issue.

But, expecting a Clinton worshipper to show an interest in facts is asking far too much.

[broncos_mtnman]

By Ted Nugent
Special to CNN

WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

Nearly a decade ago, a Springfield, Oregon, high schooler, a hunter familiar with firearms, was able to bring an unfolding rampage to an abrupt end when he identified a gunman attempting to reload his .22-caliber rifle, made the tactical decision to make a move and tackled the shooter.

A few years back, an assistant principal at Pearl High School in Mississippi, which was a gun-free zone, retrieved his legally owned Colt .45 from his car and stopped a Columbine wannabe from continuing his massacre at another school after he had killed two and wounded more at Pearl.

At an eighth-grade school dance in Pennsylvania, a boy fatally shot a teacher and wounded two students before the owner of the dance hall brought the killing to a halt with his own gun.

More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave, average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto.

My hero, Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp, was not allowed by Texas law to carry her handgun into Luby's Cafeteria that fateful day in 1991, when due to bureaucrat-forced unarmed helplessness she could do nothing to stop satanic George Hennard from killing 23 people and wounding more than 20 others before he shot himself. Hupp was unarmed for no other reason than denial-ridden "feel good" politics.

She has since led the charge for concealed weapon upgrade in Texas, where we can now stop evil. Yet, there are still the mindless puppets of the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun organizations insisting on continuing the gun-free zone insanity by which innocents are forced into unarmed helplessness. Shame on them. Shame on America. Shame on the anti-gunners all.

No one was foolish enough to debate Ryder truck regulations or ammonia nitrate restrictions or a "cult of agriculture fertilizer" following the unabashed evil of Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime against America on that fateful day in Oklahoma City. No one faulted kitchen utensils or other hardware of choice after Jeffrey Dahmer was caught drugging, mutilating, raping, murdering and cannibalizing his victims. Nobody wanted "steak knife control" as they autopsied the dead nurses in Chicago, Illinois, as Richard Speck went on trial for mass murder.

Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. Shame on us.

Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people.

Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun ban. Feel better yet? Didn't think so.

Who doesn't get this? Who has the audacity to demand unarmed helplessness? Who likes dead good guys?

I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones. People who are so desperate in their drive to control others, so mindless in their denial that they pretend access to gas causes arson, Ryder trucks and fertilizer cause terrorism, water causes drowning, forks and spoons cause obesity, dialing 911 will somehow save your life, and that their greedy clamoring to "feel good" is more important than admitting that armed citizens are much better equipped to stop evil than unarmed, helpless ones.

Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

By Ted Nugent...


The Motor City Kiddie Diddler speaks. :giggle:

[Bronco Bob]

Besides, compared to Europe, Japan, and China, we have had a very peaceful society over the last hundred years or so.



How about over the last six years?

[W*GS]

The Motor City Kiddie Diddler speaks.

Attacking the messenger and pretending that the message has been discredited is a tactic only BushCo apologists use.

And LABF too.

[W*GS]

How about over the last six years?

We've got a long ways to go to even approach the wars Europeans have fought amongst themselves and the millions dead caused by China (against its own people) and Japan (against everyone else in Asia, pretty much).

I'm always disappointed when folks want to paint the US as a particularly violent place.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Attacking the messenger and pretending that the message has been discredited is a tactic only BushCo apologists use.

And LABF too.

Oh, get over yourself!

I didn't even bother to read the message, so I have no comment on it.

I just have to laugh whenever anyone mentions Nugent because it reminds me of his VH-1 "Behind the Music" special.

I can't help it.

:D

[W*GS]

Oh, get over yourself!

I didn't even bother to read the message, so I have no comment on it.

Fair enough.

Try commenting on this one (read it first):

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1645658&postcount=70

Perhaps your problem is that you don't bother to read most messages...

[Florida_Bronco]

I have told you several times now the system is broken. There needs to be national law (uniform laws) for all states on who can buy firearms and who can't. The criteria set by Congress. IF, the NRA was really concerned about reducing gun crime in this country they would gladly volunteer to help shape this legislation.

So the system has flaws? Who is arguing that? I'm all for fixing the flaws to allow for a speedier, national background check.

And what does the NRA have to do with anything? We're not talking about the NRA here.

Yeah, you'd rather have the right for anyone to instantly buy weapons just for the sake of being able to do so regardless of what and who that process allowed to end up with firearms in their possession.

I'm not about to deny the right for law abiding citzens to own (in a reasonable time frame) firearms just to prevent a few sickos from owning them too. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen you on more than one occasion champion that quote...oh how does it go..."those who sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither." So how is this any different Slug?

Sorry, but I'm not giving up my liberty for safety. You can take that to the bank.

[Florida_Bronco]

Never mind "assault weapon" is a very poorly-defined term (but sure to keep the anti-gunners in the money from ignorant fearful folk) and that these 19 weapons were "banned" (not really) based on appearance, not function.

The assault weapons ban was one of the worst pieces of legislation I can think of. They basically banned the weapons that are the least responsible for murders in this country because they are scary looking.

[Spider]

The Night was dark , the sky was blue , down the alley the **** wagon flew , a bump was hit , a scream was heard , W*GS was hit by a flying turd ......

[Spider]

The assault weapons ban was one of the worst pieces of legislation I can think of. They basically banned the weapons that are the least responsible for murders in this country because they are scary looking.

Bull**** , the gang bangers in LA were spraying bullets everywhere

[W*GS]

Bull**** , the gang bangers in LA were spraying bullets everywhere

As if gang bangers obey the law...

[Spider]

As if gang bangers obey the law...

Not going down this road again with you , you are a zealot , a fanatic , cant be reasoned with .... a rabid weatherman ....

[W*GS]

Glad to see you've acknowledged that the basis of your argument (criminals will obey the law) is pointless.

[Spider]

Glad to see you've acknowledged that the basis of your argument (criminals will obey the law) is pointless.
No arguing with you is pointless , I will just insult and ridicule you for now on , much easier , and I dont have to go in circles with an Idiot ... Last time we did this we went pages , and you never could explain why people needed assault weapons .......so just better off insulting you and moving on

[W*GS]

Sigh. I did explain, but you were too stubborn.

[Spider]

Sigh. I did explain, but you were too stubborn.

sigh ok .........

[Chupacabra]

In my personal experience.... the thugs in high school that tried to act like gangsters bought their guns in the hood. I had a teammate who quit football to sell coke that had at least 4 guns in his car at all times... not a single one of them legal. It was as easy to buy a gun off the black market as it was to buy a bag of coke.

[Chupacabra]

In my personal experience.... the thugs in high school that tried to act like gangsters bought their guns in the hood. I had a teammate who quit football to sell coke that had at least 4 guns in his car at all times... not a single one of them legal. It was as easy to buy a gun off the black market as it was to buy a bag of coke.

And note that this was small town Texas. I can't imagine how accessible black market guns are in the inner city.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

So the system has flaws? Who is arguing that? I'm all for fixing the flaws to allow for a speedier, national background check.
And what does the NRA have to do with anything? We're not talking about the NRA here. This speaks volumes on your ignorance of gun legislation in this country.


I'm not about to deny the right for law abiding citzens to own (in a reasonable time frame) firearms just to prevent a few sickos from owning them too. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen you on more than one occasion champion that quote...oh how does it go..."those who sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither." So how is this any different Slug? I doubt if I've "championed" that quote but there is nothing wrong with it. And it has nothing to do with what I've stated.

Sorry, but I'm not giving up my liberty for safety. You can take that to the bank.Another statement that shows you aren't comprehending what you're reading. Enacting a nationwide standard and guideline on what crimes , convictions, mental problems, etc... would prevent those people from legally purchasing firearms wouldn't threaten your "liberty" or safety.

[W*GS]

Enacting a nationwide standard and guideline on what crimes , convictions, mental problems, etc... would prevent those people from legally purchasing firearms wouldn't threaten your "liberty" or safety.

Perhaps you can answer the first few questions I had for LABF in

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1645658&postcount=70

and explain how your idea will work.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Perhaps you can answer the first few questions I had for LABF in
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1645658&postcount=70
and explain how your idea will work.
23 states currently don't use mental adjudications as reason for denial of firearm purchases according to investigations after the Cho massacre. More than half the states don't or can't follow the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 and or The Gun Control Act of 1968 for one reason or another. That alone shows the system broken.

[TheDave]

Now, let me preface this by saying I'm not a gun owner and haved no intention of being one.... But... I just don't understand peoples obsession with guns. I understand the need for hunters and to some degree home protection, but when you read the comments on these threads people seem more passionate about their 2nd ammendment rights than just about anything else. Just a strange thing to watch play out.

[W*GS]

23 states currently don't use mental adjudications as reason for denial of firearm purchases according to investigations after the Cho massacre.

Can you be more specific? What's a "mental adjudication"?

More than half the states don't or can't follow the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 and or The Gun Control Act of 1968 for one reason or another. That alone shows the system broken.

What does "don't or can't follow" mean?

[W*GS]

Lengthy reference on "Gun Sales and Mental Health: A comparison and guide", at:

http://www.officer.com/web/online/Operations-and-Tactics/Gun-Sales-and-Mental-Health/3$35930

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The assault weapons ban was one of the worst pieces of legislation I can think of. They basically banned the weapons that are the least responsible for murders in this country because they are scary looking.

The proof is in the pudding.

From 1993 to 2000 there was more than a 35 percent drop in gun-related crime and a 57 percent decrease in juvenile gun homicide offenders.

http://www.perkel.com/politics/clinton/accomp.htm

http://gopher.usdoj.gov/crime/crime.html

http://docs.whitehouse.gov/white-house-publications/1995/02/1995-02-28-president-at-brady-law-one-year-anniversary-event.text

[W*GS]

The proof is in the pudding.

From 1993 to 2000 there was more than a 35 percent drop in gun-related crime and a 57 percent decrease in juvenile gun homicide offenders.

If you can show that the "assault weapons" "ban" caused those changes, then you might have a case. Otherwise, as I mentioned, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[Florida_Bronco]

Can you read, Beerslug?

This speaks volumes on your ignorance of gun legislation in this country.

You're just bound and determined to avoid my questions, aren't you?

I doubt if I've "championed" that quote but there is nothing wrong with it.

Agreed, it's a good quote to live by.

And it has nothing to do with what I've stated.

The hell it doesn't.

Another statement that shows you aren't comprehending what you're reading. Enacting a nationwide standard and guideline on what crimes , convictions, mental problems, etc... would prevent those people from legally purchasing firearms wouldn't threaten your "liberty" or safety.

You're the one that isn't comprehending here, Slug. I have no qualms about stopping convicted felons and those with mental problems from owning firearms. Pay better attention.

[Florida_Bronco]

The proof is in the pudding.

From 1993 to 2000 there was more than a 35 percent drop in gun-related crime and a 57 percent decrease in juvenile gun homicide offenders.

http://www.perkel.com/politics/clinton/accomp.htm

http://gopher.usdoj.gov/crime/crime.html

http://docs.whitehouse.gov/white-house-publications/1995/02/1995-02-28-president-at-brady-law-one-year-anniversary-event.text

Here is a good read on the AWB and how worthless it was, complete with citations for all it's sources.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/misc/AWBrief.pdf

[W*GS]

Here is a good read on the AWB and how worthless it was, complete with citations for all it's sources.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/misc/AWBrief.pdf

Most excellent! Props!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Here is a good read on the AWB and how worthless it was, complete with citations for all it's sources.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/misc/AWBrief.pdf

I don't know about you, but I certainly don't consider a 35 percent drop in gun-related crime and a 57 percent decrease in juvenile gun homicide offenders "worthless."

"Effective" is more like it. :thumbsup:

[W*GS]

I don't know about you, but I certainly don't consider a 35 percent drop in gun-related crime and a 57 percent decrease in juvenile gun homicide offenders "worthless."

"Effective" is more like it. :thumbsup:

Obviously you didn't see

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1646311&postcount=97

[Florida_Bronco]

I don't know about you, but I certainly don't consider a 35 percent drop in gun-related crime and a 57 percent decrease in juvenile gun homicide offenders "worthless."

"Effective" is more like it. :thumbsup:

I know you probably aren't a "gun guy" so I can see why this might be confusing to some, but that drop in crime is unrelated to the AWB.

Check out the number of crimes commited with the "assault weapons" before, during and after the ban. The ban made very little difference in those crimes.