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bpc
07-04-2007, 03:58 PM
Is he really better than we thought and does Mike Shanahan actually know what he is talking about?

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In this week's installment of overrated and underrated players, I will be taking a look at the safety position. When I grade safeties, it is primarily based on their coverage skills, not their run-support skills, although I do take the run-support skills into account.


I also break down safeties into two positional categories: run safety and coverage safety. I use those terms instead of the strong and free safety terms because I think they better identify what each safety is responsible for.


July 4 Glossary
YPA (Yards Per Attempt): A quick barometer of a quarterback/wide receiver/tight end's efficiency.
Depth level: A measurement of how far downfield a receiver was on a pass attempt. It is measured from the point at which the receiver touched the ball. Short passes are 1-10, medium 11-19, deep 20-29, and bombs 30 or more yards downfield.

Success percentage: The percentage of plays on which a player does something successful with the ball. Successful plays include completions (for offensive players), incompletions (for defensive players) and penalty plays that go in the player's favor.

Missed passes: Inaccurate or dropped passes that cause an incompletion. Missed passes are used to measure how successful a QB/WR/TE could have been if not for the mistakes. They also help measure how lucky a cornerback was in coverage.

Near interception: Near interceptions are either dropped interceptions or interceptions that landed close enough to a defender that he could have had a chance to catch the ball had luck been on his side.

Stripped/dropped pass: A pass that a receiver starts to catch but then has the ball stripped away by the cornerback.

Forced incompletions: Any incomplete pass that a defensive back is physically responsible for causing. It is a combination of passes defensed, stripped/dropped passes and plays where a hit by a defensive back causes an incompletion.

• Complete Glossary

The safety position also has a unique coverage metric that I call the deep-assist coverage metric. This metric is used to distinguish when a safety is helping another player cover a receiver over the top. In addition to that metric, I also use the direct coverage metric when the safety is directly responsible for covering a receiver one on one.


The deep assist metric is the most important coverage metric for a coverage safety because that is the primary responsibility of that position. The direct coverage metric comes up more often with run safeties because they spend more of their time near the line of scrimmage at the snap, but they also have their share of deep assist plays. I also will combine these metrics together to measure a player's overall coverage skills as well.


As usual, the overrated and underrated rankings are based on the 2006 metrics when compared to the player's perceived performance level.



Overrated safeties
Ed Reed
Reed's metrics were terrible last year. His 14.9 combined YPA was the fifth-worst in the league among coverage safeties. He gave up the third-highest number of total yards. He had the fourth-most bomb passes thrown his way and the third-worst YPA at that depth level.


I know there are those who will say that the game broadcast tapes don't show everything that Reed does and that these numbers are anomalies, but let me throw this out in my defense. Carson Palmer said that Reed often doesn't play his coverage and thinks he knows what's coming. Palmer also commented that Reed can get frustrated when the offense is getting some things going and will try to come up and make a play and lose his responsibilities because of it. Palmer was able to exploit Reed's impatience in Week 13, when he connected on a flea-flicker pass to T.J. Houshmandzadeh for a 40-yard touchdown.


The metrics show that Palmer isn't the only quarterback who knows Reed's coverage weaknesses. That is why I believe Reed is the most overrated safety in the league.


Sean Taylor
Taylor made the Pro Bowl as an injury replacement, but the metrics make it clear he didn't earn the spot. He ranked 20th in both deep assist YPA and deep assist success percentage. He did even worse when in direct coverage, as his 10.7 YPA in those situations was the seventh worst in the NFL last year. He also gave up the second-most total yards of any coverage safety. Taylor did do a lot more to support the run last year than he did in years past, but even taking that into account, he really wasn't a Pro Bowl-level coverage safety last year.


Others:
Dwight Smith: Smith gets a lot of credit for making big plays, but his 12.3 overall YPA was 30th-worst in the league.


Erik Coleman: Coleman tends to be mentioned in the same breath as Kerry Rhodes because he plays in the same secondary, but his 44.7 percent success percentage was the fifth worst among coverage safeties last year.


Ken Hamlin: Is being touted as something of a savior for Dallas, but his 10.4 deep assist YPA ranked only 19th among coverage safeties last year.


Underrated safeties

Brian Russell
Russell had the second-best overall YPA of any coverage safety last year. He also placed in the top eight in YPA in both the direct coverage and deep assist coverage metrics. Add those to his No. 14 ranking in overall success percentage and it shows that the Seahawks might have found a gem in Russell.


Kevin Kaesviharn
Kaesviharn mostly played run safety with Cincinnati in 2006, but he likely will play coverage safety in New Orleans. The metrics say his transition to that position should be very smooth. Kaesviharn's 5.8 overall YPA was the sixth-best among run safeties. He also posted a 6.3 YPA on deep assist plays, a total that was the 10th best in that category. If these metrics are any indication, Kaesviharn might give Josh Bullocks a run for his money for the starting coverage safety spot.


Others:
Mike Minter: Minter's 5.1 overall YPA ranked third among coverage safeties last year. He is being moved to run safety and his metrics say he should be a good fit there from a coverage standpoint.


Jarrad Page: Injuries forced Page into the lineup as a rookie last year, but he was able to hold his own. Page faced only 19 passes, but allowed a meager 5.4 YPA on them.


Nick Ferguson: Ferguson played in only 10 games last year due to injuries, but he posted tremendous metrics during that time. His 4.2 YPA was third best among run safeties and his 76.5 percent success percentage was second best.

Atlas
07-04-2007, 04:13 PM
I have been saying for awhile Fergy wasn't a problem and that he was better than Lynch. Just two years ago he had 5 ints and played very well.

MechanicalBull
07-04-2007, 04:22 PM
This whole offseason I've been saying that I don't think our safety situation is perfect but I don't think Shanahan and co. see it has down right horrible as some on here make it out to be and saying we blew it in the draft by not picking one.

Shanahan has earned my trust many many years ago and I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt in that this guy knows what he is doing. Plus if we do have some type of decent pass rush this year to go along with Bailey and Bly our safeties won't look bad because the QBs hopefully don't have forever to throw the ball like they have had lately.

bpc
07-04-2007, 04:22 PM
I think our safeties are consistent. I just don't think either one of them are really playmakers.

Consistency seems to go out the window when we play peyton manning. We need some big plays in that instance. Hopefully we get some this year.

DukeWoody
07-04-2007, 04:45 PM
This whole offseason I've been saying that I don't think our safety situation is perfect but I don't think Shanahan and co. see it has down right horrible as some on here make it out to be and saying we blew it in the draft by not picking one.

Shanahan has earned my trust many many years ago and I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt in that this guy knows what he is doing. Plus if we do have some type of decent pass rush this year to go along with Bailey and Bly our safeties won't look bad because the QBs hopefully don't have forever to throw the ball like they have had lately.

Our safeties are prolly about average,with some good pass rush as u stated, they could be slightly above average...Couple that with the best corner tandum in the leage and that makes for a exceptional DB backfeild...Thats the way i see it with my orange tint on...:homer:

SportinOne
07-04-2007, 05:37 PM
Or how about the fact that Champ lines up in front of him?

chrisp
07-04-2007, 05:56 PM
I think that the issue with the safety position is Dennis Smith and Steve Atwater, not the guys we have now.

Those two raised the bar at the position so high that "OK" just isn't good enough for the bronco's faithful anymore

We barely tolerate Lynch as it is, but woe betide any athelete who lines up behind the linebackers in a Broncos uni without at least a couple of pro bowls to his name.

I can't lay claim to having broken down tape of Ferguson or anything like that, but I have been a little mystified by the degree of antipathy towards him, and I did feel all along that the failure to draft a safety was down to the Broncos feeling really OK with the people they have got.

I think the safety position is probably one of the more cerebral positions on the defensive side of the field. Thats why guys like Ferguson or Tyrone Braxton can become solid vets despite not having major draft pedigree or outstanding athleticism, by just sticking around and learning the nuances of the game. Typically they're not as fast as the corners and not as big as the linebackers, so they generally have to make sure they read the game and put themselves in the right place at the right time.

Heck, Lynch isn't that much faster than Sam Adams but he still got himself to the pro bowl......

Kaylore
07-04-2007, 06:22 PM
I know there are those who will say that the game broadcast tapes don't show everything that Reed does and that these numbers are anomalies, but let me throw this out in my defense. Carson Palmer said that Reed often doesn't play his coverage and thinks he knows what's coming. Palmer also commented that Reed can get frustrated when the offense is getting some things going and will try to come up and make a play and lose his responsibilities because of it. Palmer was able to exploit Reed's impatience in Week 13, when he connected on a flea-flicker pass to T.J. Houshmandzadeh for a 40-yard touchdown.

I've been saying this for awhile now and no one believed me. (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1299815&postcount=11)

On their secondary, Ed Reed was out of possition on a couple of plays and still takes poor angles. I know people say "OMG he 1n73rce9ts teh 8@Ll though!!!!111" Well he's a bit overrated.

Everyone on this board is in love with Ed Reed: "Why can't we have an Ed Reed type?" "Our safeties are too slow, I wish they were like Ed Reed" "Imagine if we had a true cover safety like Ed Reed!" On and on ad nauseum.

Both our safeties are pretty good, despite what you'll hear from KMartin and Hercules Rockefeller.

OrangeShadow
07-04-2007, 06:23 PM
Or how about the fact that Champ lines up in front of him?

its because of his humps :rofl:

Kaylore
07-04-2007, 06:26 PM
I think that the issue with the safety position is Dennis Smith and Steve Atwater, not the guys we have now.

Those two raised the bar at the position so high that "OK" just isn't good enough for the bronco's faithful anymore

I also think that we took Lelie when Ed Reed was available is something several posters here will never let die and compounds the whining about our safeties.

MechanicalBull
07-04-2007, 06:50 PM
I also think that we took Lelie when Ed Reed was available is something several posters here will never let die and compounds the whining about our safeties.

I totally agree with that. I think it's time to move on with the whole Lelie/Reed talks. Nobody knows how these guys are going to turn out in the draft. We should've drafted Brady in 2000. Probably would've won 5-6 superbowls already. :rofl:

OrangeShadow
07-04-2007, 07:02 PM
I also think that we took Lelie when Ed Reed was available is something several posters here will never let die and compounds the whining about our safeties.

even though javon walker was next on denvers board NOT ed reed.

cutthemdown
07-04-2007, 07:05 PM
If Ferguson is healthy he will be fine paired along with Lynch.

Rock Chalk
07-04-2007, 08:17 PM
Im one of the few that have Defended Ferguson on this board. I think he is a fine safety. Nothing spectactular, but then I dont think safeties have to be. With our corner situation, especially this year, couple with what at least on paper looks to be a much improved defensive line, they will have their typical lunch pail type of years even being a year older for both of them.

Besides, I really think our safety depth is better than most every other position on the team. Sam Brandon is, IMO, an excellent backup safety and nickle/dime coverage guy. He got hurt last year and coincidentally our coverage packages went downhill.

elsid13
07-04-2007, 09:09 PM
Fergy is a decent safety but I would be lying if I said that it wouldn't be great to have Taylor or Reid back there. Both make one or two game changing plays a game that Fergy isn't capable of doing.

Rock Chalk
07-04-2007, 09:11 PM
I dont know.

Fergy may not make a play thats a game changer but he also doesnt give up any game changing plays unlike Reed and Taylor.

Which do you want?

elsid13
07-04-2007, 09:18 PM
I watched a lot of Skins/Ratbirds games and I didn't remember either safety giving up anymore "game changing plays" then Fergy has. I know Taylor is responsible for one win last for the skins (JAX) and I don't think that Fergy has ever been the reason Denver won a game.

Rock Chalk
07-04-2007, 09:21 PM
I watched a lot of Skins/Ratbirds games and I didn't remember either safety giving up anymore "game changing plays" then Fergy has. I know Taylor is responsible for one win last for the skins (JAX) and I don't think that Fergy has ever been the reason Denver won a game.

I know that Ferguson sealed a win with an interceptiona t the end of the game. I Dont think the team would have won anyway, I think we were two scores up, but that doesnt change the fact. And Taylor has given up big big plays as well as Reed. Maybe they werent at the end of the game but those big plays COULD have been the reasons they lost the games.

All I know is that we have Champ Bailey and now Dre Bly. We dont need our safeties to be game changers, we have CHAMP BAILEY. Asking for more of a game changer than that is well, greedy.

elsid13
07-04-2007, 09:47 PM
I actually think it more important now that we have safety that make a play when either Champ or Bly (especial) go for pick that they don't get it. Beside if we had a safety that put a real hurt on WR/TE that goes across the middle how much harder will be for opposing QB to make a play.
Beside GREED is good at time

Dr. Broncenstein
07-04-2007, 11:40 PM
I'd rather see Brandon (if healthy) or Abdullah in place of Ferguson.

12th man
07-04-2007, 11:47 PM
I have always thought Fergy was underrated. In 2005, I thought he had a pro bowl caliber year, and even so said John Lynch. Also, befor his injury, I thought he was doing a pretty good job last year. I wish we wouldn't have lost him, because we would have been a better team with him starting for us IMO.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2007, 11:48 PM
Both our safeties are pretty good, despite what you'll hear from KMartin and Hercules Rockefeller.

Shanahan went out of his way recently to praise Nick Ferguson ... I don't have a link, but he made it pretty clear he likes Nick a lot.

DukeWoody
07-05-2007, 12:04 AM
We do have quite a bit of safety depth on the roster,although they are not brand names and relative unknowns,we have been grooming some of these guys for 2,3 and even 4 years now...My guess is either Abdulla,Brandon or Cox could step up into a starting roll as early as next season...Another guy to keep an eye out 4 is Cargile...One thing all these guys have in comon is that they're all young and we have not paid much money out on them...Im sure if there's a cant miss free agent 4 the right price we'd make that pick just to feel a little more secure...Those kinda guys don't come along very often...But safety is less of worry then people make it out to be especialy if we generate any kind of a pass rush...

Wes Mantooth
07-05-2007, 02:08 AM
I was hoping this thread would discuss "lovely lady lumps", not this football crap.

Broncos4Life
07-05-2007, 02:27 AM
I think our safeties are consistent. I just don't think either one of them are really playmakers.

Consistency seems to go out the window when we play peyton manning. We need some big plays in that instance. Hopefully we get some this year.

Well Fergy was a playmaker in 05. Remember, Coyer tinkered with the defense and screwed it all up last year.

bpc
07-05-2007, 02:45 AM
I thought Fergy was aggressive his first year in and made a lot of plays on ballcarriers.

Lately Fergy has kept everything in front of him which i think the coaching staff wanted. Still, I always see him a fingertip away from making a pick. He just doesn't have that "it" ability that would make him a pro bowl safety. I respect the guy a ton, I just wish he could do more with Champ blanketing one side of the field. For the most part he hasn't been able to. Maybe a pass rush this year, WILL help.

cutthemdown
07-05-2007, 06:58 AM
I was hoping this thread would discuss "lovely lady lumps", not this football crap.

not surprising!! Have you ever talked football?

~Crash~
07-05-2007, 09:29 AM
do you got a link chris I posted this at kffl and they want a link .

Popcorn Sutton
07-05-2007, 09:34 AM
It's ESPN Insider...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2924354

socalorado
07-05-2007, 10:14 AM
I also think that we took Lelie when Ed Reed was available is something several posters here will never let die and compounds the whining about our safeties.

There it is in a nutshell. The whole "Broncos passsed up on The Greatest Playmaker ever crap" is why Fergie does not get love.......oh and the AFC Champ game where he let that TD go right through his hands is also a sore spot for many.
Bottom Line: Good pass rush, Fergie will be good.
Bad pass rush, we can start talking about the lady lumps.......

fdf
07-05-2007, 10:55 AM
I think that the issue with the safety position is Dennis Smith and Steve Atwater, not the guys we have now.

Those two raised the bar at the position so high that "OK" just isn't good enough for the bronco's faithful anymore

It's hard to accept mediocrity after you've watched Eric Brown play.

Jason in LA
07-05-2007, 02:37 PM
I find it interesting that this guy puts so little stock in a safety's run supporting ability, which I put a lot of stock into. Actually, it seems like most people overlook a safety's run supporting abilities. I like John Lynch a lot. He's like another LB. He's great in run support. Steve Atwater wasn't the best in pass coverage. He laid WRs out because he normally didn't get there in time to make a play on the ball. But he was the perfect safety to me. He played like a LB in run support, and he scared the crap out of WRs from going over the middle. Dennis Smith was the same way.

I'll take a hard hitting safety any day.

Dempsey Dog
07-05-2007, 06:14 PM
KC Joyner gave Fergy some love, and he continued it by giving the rest of our secondary some as well today in his Q&A session.

Ben (Los Angeles): Hi KC, love all the data backed analysis. Wanted to know how you think the denver secondary is going to do? Champ Bailey paired with Dre Bly, not to mention your recently proclaimed underrated safety of Ferguson paired with Lynch?

<!-- displayed mode -->http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif KC Joyner: (4:27 PM ET ) Ben, from a coverage standpoint, no secondary is better than Denver's. Bailey is a phenom, Bly will do much better in the Denver scheme than he did in Detroit's cover-two, Lynch had the best coverage metrics of any coverage safety and Ferguson was great in coverage as well.


The one thing I can say about Joyner is that he uses a scientific and analytical approach. He does not just say what he feels or whatever. He lets the numbers speak for themselves. Man, I am sure looking forward to this season. It should be a lot of fun!

Merlin
07-05-2007, 06:22 PM
Lynch had the best coverage metrics of any coverage safety and Ferguson was great in coverage as well.
Not only is Lynch smart and help set-up the defence, he is a stud at helping stop the run and he had the best metrics of any coverage safety. He may be slower, but he sure knows how to position himself and read the offence to limit his liability. Nonetheless even many bronco fans just dismiss his pro-bowls as being a by-product of his reputation and not his play.

Kaylore
07-05-2007, 07:40 PM
Rep to Merlin and Jason. Great stuff. :thumbs:

Bronco_Beerslug
07-05-2007, 08:16 PM
Is he really better than we thought and does Mike Shanahan actually know what he is talking about?
No, see the claw.

OrangeShadow
07-05-2007, 08:36 PM
KC Joyner gave Fergy some love, and he continued it by giving the rest of our secondary some as well today in his Q&A session.

Ben (Los Angeles): Hi KC, love all the data backed analysis. Wanted to know how you think the denver secondary is going to do? Champ Bailey paired with Dre Bly, not to mention your recently proclaimed underrated safety of Ferguson paired with Lynch?

<!-- displayed mode -->http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif KC Joyner: (4:27 PM ET ) Ben, from a coverage standpoint, no secondary is better than Denver's. Bailey is a phenom, Bly will do much better in the Denver scheme than he did in Detroit's cover-two, Lynch had the best coverage metrics of any coverage safety and Ferguson was great in coverage as well.


The one thing I can say about Joyner is that he uses a scientific and analytical approach. He does not just say what he feels or whatever. He lets the numbers speak for themselves. Man, I am sure looking forward to this season. It should be a lot of fun!

great stuff man :thumbs:

Bronco_Beerslug
07-05-2007, 09:15 PM
KC Joyner gave Fergy some love, and he continued it by giving the rest of our secondary some as well today in his Q&A session.

Ben (Los Angeles): Hi KC, love all the data backed analysis. Wanted to know how you think the denver secondary is going to do? Champ Bailey paired with Dre Bly, not to mention your recently proclaimed underrated safety of Ferguson paired with Lynch?

<!-- displayed mode -->http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif KC Joyner: (4:27 PM ET ) Ben, from a coverage standpoint, no secondary is better than Denver's. Bailey is a phenom, Bly will do much better in the Denver scheme than he did in Detroit's cover-two, Lynch had the best coverage metrics of any coverage safety and Ferguson was great in coverage as well.


The one thing I can say about Joyner is that he uses a scientific and analytical approach. He does not just say what he feels or whatever. He lets the numbers speak for themselves. Man, I am sure looking forward to this season. It should be a lot of fun!Total crap!

bpc
07-06-2007, 02:18 AM
KC Joyner gave Fergy some love, and he continued it by giving the rest of our secondary some as well today in his Q&A session.

Ben (Los Angeles): Hi KC, love all the data backed analysis. Wanted to know how you think the denver secondary is going to do? Champ Bailey paired with Dre Bly, not to mention your recently proclaimed underrated safety of Ferguson paired with Lynch?

<!-- displayed mode -->http://assets.espn.go.com/i/sn2.gif KC Joyner: (4:27 PM ET ) Ben, from a coverage standpoint, no secondary is better than Denver's. Bailey is a phenom, Bly will do much better in the Denver scheme than he did in Detroit's cover-two, Lynch had the best coverage metrics of any coverage safety and Ferguson was great in coverage as well.


The one thing I can say about Joyner is that he uses a scientific and analytical approach. He does not just say what he feels or whatever. He lets the numbers speak for themselves. Man, I am sure looking forward to this season. It should be a lot of fun!


My only problem with putting so much "science" into football is that the numbers start to become deceiving... like when people thought we were crazy for giving up Brian Griese because his QB rating was so high. A player can always make good decisions, it doesn't mean he is the best player. Athletic ability and playmaking ability go a long way in determining how good a player actually is. When you combine all that, you get a player like Champ Bailey.

Dempsey Dog
07-06-2007, 12:23 PM
My only problem with putting so much "science" into football is that the numbers start to become deceiving... like when people thought we were crazy for giving up Brian Griese because his QB rating was so high. A player can always make good decisions, it doesn't mean he is the best player. Athletic ability and playmaking ability go a long way in determining how good a player actually is. When you combine all that, you get a player like Champ Bailey.

Good point. I will say that QB rating can be very deceiving though. I think Plummer's numbers are deceptive as well.

Joyner actually watches a lot of tape and does a good job at microanalysis, though. He really tries to get into the nitty gritty and how a player truly performs on a play-by-play basis.

I am a numbers guy, so perhaps I GET little too excited about them sometimes. Nevertheless, I still think our secondary will be fine. It all comes down to our ability to generate a pass rush and controlling time of possession. Of course there are few other consideration regarding health, but I think we will all be pleased this season with the product our team will be presenting.