Jim Bates system

[Los Broncos]

I dont if we have covered this yet, but i want to know what the Bates shceme is all about.

Is it about playing in space or keeping everything in front of you?

[dragondawg]

i think it's suppose to have the big tackles in the middle take on the offsenive line so it frees the lineback to make plays and attack the QB, also the ends line up a little further out so they can rush the passer better and the middle linebacker is suppose to have like 130 tackle season

[Jesterhole]

Put it this way. We'll know what kind of player we have in DJ Williams by the end of the year.

I'm excited...I thought Coyer always had a good game plan going in, but never made any sort of adjustment during the game and always got out schemed in the 4th quarter. I'll be nice to see what a different approach will bring.

[HEAV]

Big Fat tackles that gobble up center and gaurds.

Fast ends that pressure O-tackles and force plays inside.

Speedy linebackers with play making abilities. Middle LB collecting major tackles, thanks to the funnel of play inside.

Tough corners playing bump and man to man. (But with Champ he may like him do his thang)

Safeties with ball skills. (My only concern is Lynch in coverage)

[alkemical]

2k baltimore ravens D

[DenverBrit]

Big Fat tackles that gobble up center and gaurds.

Fast ends that pressure O-tackles and force plays inside.

Speedy linebackers with play making abilities. Middle LB collecting major tackles, thanks to the funnel of play inside.

Tough corners playing bump and man to man. (But with Champ he may like him do his thang)

Safeties with ball skills. (My only concern is Lynch in coverage)

I wondered about that. Champ has had great success playing off the receiver and playing the ball. One has to think that Bate's will allow him to continue. Also, it seems unlikely we will see the DL dropping back into zone coverage, I won't miss that scheme.

[Los Broncos]

Big Fat tackles that gobble up center and gaurds.

Fast ends that pressure O-tackles and force plays inside.

Speedy linebackers with play making abilities. Middle LB collecting major tackles, thanks to the funnel of play inside.

Tough corners playing bump and man to man. (But with Champ he may like him do his thang)

Safeties with ball skills. (My only concern is Lynch in coverage)

So not much difference than the fins d?

[Los Broncos]

I wondered about that. Champ has had great success playing off the receiver and playing the ball. One has to think that Bate's will allow him to continue. Also, it seems unlikely we will see the DL dropping back into zone coverage, I won't miss that scheme.

I wanna see Lynch up at the line blitzing like he was in 05.

[azbroncfan]

So not much difference than the fins d?


Other than the Fins play a capers 3-4. I hope Denvers D is like the early 2000 fins teams.

[anthonypacino]

I dont if we have covered this yet, but i want to know what the Bates shceme is all about.

Is it about playing in space or keeping everything in front of you?

It's a attacking D thats supposed to "funnel" things to the middle of the field, outside rush from the edge and press coverage on the outside is supposed to force the QB to throw in the middle, or close off lanes to the outside with the large line and force the runs up the middle as well. Some similarities how the Tampa 2 D is soft on the run but shuts down "big plays" and calls on defense's to be sure tacklers. If the pressure isn't there then it's not very effective.

In Miami at one time Bates had one of the best defensive backfields, tough and physical, hard for anyone to name another LB on the team during that time not named Zach Thomas as he seemingly made every tackle. Trace Armstrong and Jason Taylor caused havoc on the line.

The thing is, Bates was a good D-Coord for the Phins' but in a era where we have seen a team go to the SB and win based solely on their defense (Ravens,Bucs,Bears) the Dolphins were not one of those teams. So while I'm glad he's here I'm not expecting him to be a messiah either, his teams were good but never great.

[Los Broncos]

So if our d gels and our offense scores points we should do pretty well.

[anthonypacino]

So if our d gels and our offense scores points we should do pretty well.

Well to me, and I'm not trying to be a hater, cause I love the Broncos. 9-7 or 8-8 is what I'm expecting this year. With all the wide sweeping changes, the loss of the teams defensive leader, the new coaches, new QB still getting his feet wet. If we are depending on Dumervil and Moss to become Jason Taylor in a season and our safties becoming ballhawks it's not gonna be lights out ball this year.

It doesn't mean I not excited, it's great watching and being hopeful again, seeing them come together and hopefully fufilling their potentional. But it's not gonna happen this year, and with our schedule we only play 3 home games from Nov to the end of the season 3 at home 9 away. We could get fooled by a quick start with all the home games up front (we were only 4-4 at home last year) then fade off with all the road games.

[Los Broncos]

Well to me, and I'm not trying to be a hater, cause I love the Broncos. 9-7 or 8-8 is what I'm expecting this year. With all the wide sweeping changes, the loss of the teams defensive leader, the new coaches, new QB still getting his feet wet. If we are depending on Dumervil and Moss to become Jason Taylor in a season and our safties becoming ballhawks it's not gonna be lights out ball this year.

It doesn't mean I not excited, it's great watching and being hopeful again, seeing them come together and hopefully fufilling their potentional. But it's not gonna happen this year, and with our schedule we only play 3 home games from Nov to the end of the season 3 at home 9 away. We could get fooled by a quick start with all the home games up front (we were only 4-4 at home last year) then fade off with all the road games.

Wow, thats not a good outlook, but its your opinion. And i can see where you would come up with that. And i agree our team needs time to gel, its may take us a couple of years. But its exciting none the less to watch our team play.

[anthonypacino]

Wow, thats not a good outlook, but its your opinion. And i can see where you would come up with that. And i agree our team needs time to gel, its may take us a couple of years. But its exciting none the less to watch our team play.

Yeah it's just a opinion, and even though it doesn't have us going to the playoffs I think it will still be good. We have to face both SB teams from last year-on the road and that two month run with only 3 home games is tough. That will help the team learn, cause it doesn't get much harder than that.

Even though Cutler is raw I will not fear when he drops back, with Jake I watched with one eye open, I didn't know what would happen, would be fumble? Toss a pick? Throw left handed? A completion/incompletion? A TD? Sure Jay might do a few of those things but he will learn from them, not still do them after playing in the NFL for 10 years. Some new blood on D, a sure fire "feature back" instead of the RBBC. Exciting indeed.

[Los Broncos]

Yeah it's just a opinion, and even though it doesn't have us going to the playoffs I think it will still be good. We have to face both SB teams from last year-on the road and that two month run with only 3 home games is tough. That will help the team learn, cause it doesn't get much harder than that.

Even though Cutler is raw I will not fear when he drops back, with Jake I watched with one eye open, I didn't know what would happen, would be fumble? Toss a pick? Throw left handed? A completion/incompletion? A TD? Sure Jay might do a few of those things but he will learn from them, not still do them after playing in the NFL for 10 years. Some new blood on D, a sure fire "feature back" instead of the RBBC. Exciting indeed.

Facing both SB teams will be tough especially the bears with that defense. And the colts, we all know how we against them. But with the additions and the hiring of bates will take us a long way.

Teams aren't going to fear cutler thats for sure till he proves it. And i did the same thing with jake. Sometimes i would close my eyes all together when he dropped back to pass.

But i see us going 10-6 and getting in by a hair.

[Mediator12]

Bates front is a DT two gap, and DE one gap approach. He does not Stunt, blitz, or Zone blitz very much with the front seven. He does bring the secondary on blitzes occasionally. The LB's play man coverage and both OLB's have a gap responsibility, while the MLB really does not. He scrapes to the ball on run plays, and plays the HB on pass plays. CB's play press man to disrupt the timing like a cover two scheme and do not have the run support responsibilities they have had in DEN in the past. The safeties play slightly deeper at 12-15 yards off and maintain a 1/2 and 1/2 deep cover two look with little responsibility for primary coverage. That is the base defense in a nutshell.

He likes to run the base defense versus almost any offensive formation like the cover two does, meaning he will play base personnel versus five wide sets at times. He does not blitz very often, but relies on the front four to create pressure on the QB. He plays nickel, but not much dime. He also will play less nickel than Coyer did in the past.

One thing to remember about scheme, it is the base defense and how the team plays generally. He will play zone, zone blitz, and all kinds of secondary coverages. He just will use those plays less than the base defense. For people who want to see "something different" or innovative, forget it. He plays extremely aggressive in his base defense and his changeups are more conservative than more aggressive.

What I like is the in your face approach. He basically tells you what he is going to do, and says beat it. And, he brings the heat outside on almost every play. The weaknesses are similar to the cover two in that it can really backfire if people miss tackles, especially in the secondary. It means the CB's are taught to make the tackle, before the INT. A guy like Bly could have trouble changing his gambling tendencies and give up a few big plays. Also, it has varying degrees of success versus the run. His teams have had huge VARIANCE in stopping the run, being anywhere from 5th to 31st overall in stopping the run. If a DT gets owned at the POA and the MLB gets blocked, its a ten yard gain. With both of those positions in MAJOR transition, it could be ugly versus the run early in the season until the chemistry and changes gel.

One thing is for sure, it is diametrically opposed to the scheme DEN used last year, but nowhere near as aggressive as the cover zero scheme that brought DEN 13-3 in 2005. Hopefully, they gel quickly and get back into the top 10 in defense. The Pass defense should be top 5, but the run defense may drop out of the top 10 for the first time in long time. It all depends on a solid outside pass rush, DJ becoming a tackling monster, and the DT's holding their gaps in the run game. All of which are ? until it all begins.

[KCStud]

IMO this will be a building year for both KC and DEN.

A few questions though. What the age of your guys offense?
Smith-37
Nalen-36
Lepsis-33
Meadows-33

Those are some key components to your offense. Plus on defense you guys have

Lynch-35
Ferguson-32
Adams-34
Ekuban-31

I think age is a bit of a concern for you guys, especially on at OL and S

[SpringStein]

IMO this will be a building year for both KC and DEN.

A few questions though. What the age of your guys offense?
Smith-37
Nalen-36
Lepsis-33
Meadows-33

Those are some key components to your offense. Plus on defense you guys have

Lynch-35
Ferguson-32
Adams-34
Ekuban-31

I think age is a bit of a concern for you guys, especially on at OL and S


No doubt safeties are long in the tooth and nearing the end of their careers. OL is less of a concern age wise. Meadows will be a backup, not a starter and Lepsis doesn't have all the wear/tear typical of a 33 year old. I think he still has 3-4 good years left. No doubt that Nalen is in his last year or two, but we have good possibilities ready to go when he is finished.

IMO, there is a good mix of wily vets/young potential on the team.

[Beantown Bronco]

IMO this will be a building year for both KC and DEN.

A few questions though. What the age of your guys offense?
Smith-37
Nalen-36
Lepsis-33
Meadows-33

Those are some key components to your offense. Plus on defense you guys have

Lynch-35
Ferguson-32
Adams-34
Ekuban-31

I think age is a bit of a concern for you guys, especially on at OL and S

Way to cherry-pick. The average age of the 7 starters on each side of the ball that you didn't mention is well below 30.

[Drek]

IMO this will be a building year for both KC and DEN.

A few questions though. What the age of your guys offense?
Smith-37
Nalen-36
Lepsis-33
Meadows-33

Those are some key components to your offense. Plus on defense you guys have

Lynch-35
Ferguson-32
Adams-34
Ekuban-31

I think age is a bit of a concern for you guys, especially on at OL and S

Key components?

Most of us here have been discussing if Smith will be the #2 or #3 WR, potentially getting beat out by a 23 year old.

Meadows didn't start when Lepsis went down last year and he won't be a starter this year. Pears is 25, he'll be at RT.

Adams just about defines one year rental, we just drafted two DEs in an attempt to replace Ekuban, and Ferguson has cost us more than he's won and is grossly overrated.

Lynch, Nalen, and Lepsis are legitimately key players, but Lynch is the third best DB we have as it is and arguably the 5th best defender period (behind Bailey, Bly, DJ, and Gold). Nalen and Lepsis are nearing the end of their respective careers but we've always retooled the OL on the fly. We have two talented C options in Myers and Eslinger as well as a higher round OT we just drafted who can take over for Lepsis in the next couple years and is a great fit for our system.

I know you're just trolling along here, but this is a discussion I've seen brought up quite a bit, so I'll make a post for those who actually know and care about Broncos football.

The heart of our team is now in place for the next 5+ years. Cutler is young and talented, he is at the core of it all. Walker, Graham, and Henry give him three reliable offensive weapons now and over the next 4-5 years. At those same positions we have young talent in Marshall, Scheffler, and Bell. As the older guys transition out the younger ones will step up, keeping Cutler surrounded by quality playmakers for the next decade. All we need to do is add to it and keep our OL in tact, which itself is seeing a heavy youth infusion with Kuper and Pears this year as well as Myers, Eslinger, and Harris waiting in the wings.

On defense it now all centers around Champ, DJ, and our young DL picks. Champ is going to be here making game changing plays for another decade at least. He's an all timer and short of catastrophic injury nothing will change that. DJ is a young talent who is now going to see an increased role at MLB, anchoring our linebackers with youth. We've now got three young DEs and a DT to build the line around, which compliments our two early 20's corners who're backing up Champ and Bly currently and will see an increased role when Bly takes a step back.

We have older veterans on this team, but they're contributors. The heart of this team is now built on youth gained in the last three very solid drafts.

[broncosteven]

Well to me, and I'm not trying to be a hater, cause I love the Broncos. 9-7 or 8-8 is what I'm expecting this year. With all the wide sweeping changes, the loss of the teams defensive leader, the new coaches, new QB still getting his feet wet. If we are depending on Dumervil and Moss to become Jason Taylor in a season and our safties becoming ballhawks it's not gonna be lights out ball this year.

It doesn't mean I not excited, it's great watching and being hopeful again, seeing them come together and hopefully fufilling their potentional. But it's not gonna happen this year, and with our schedule we only play 3 home games from Nov to the end of the season 3 at home 9 away. We could get fooled by a quick start with all the home games up front (we were only 4-4 at home last year) then fade off with all the road games.

I am hoping for 9-7 or 10-6 also. We do have another tough schedule and a lot of turnover at RB, DL, OL, new DB, saftey is our weak spot this year.

I am expecting AFC Championship appearance or SB by 08 though.

[azbroncfan]

IMO this will be a building year for both KC and DEN.

A few questions though. What the age of your guys offense?
Smith-37
Nalen-36
Lepsis-33
Meadows-33

Those are some key components to your offense. Plus on defense you guys have

Lynch-35
Ferguson-32
Adams-34
Ekuban-31

I think age is a bit of a concern for you guys, especially on at OL and S

33 isn't old for OL and Smith is a 3 now. Nice try to loop denver in with the shi$$y season KC is about to have with no QB.

[rovolution]

IMO this will be a building year for both KC and DEN.

A few questions though. What the age of your guys offense?
Smith-37
Nalen-36
Lepsis-33
Meadows-33

Those are some key components to your offense. Plus on defense you guys have

Lynch-35
Ferguson-32
Adams-34
Ekuban-31

I think age is a bit of a concern for you guys, especially on at OL and S

LOL i love how the chorf fans are getting so desperate. even they know their team is going to be the AFC West basement squad in the next couple of years.

Faide can play D, plus they have a promising offensive core for the future with J. Russell, Z. Miller, M. Bush, Porter if he wants to play.

What can I say about the Chuggers? With the talent they have and the leadership of LT, i doubt they will be residing in the AFC West basement anytime soon.

And us. Jay Cutler has the arm strength, leadership abilities, and athleticism to take this offense back to the glory years of #7. If Jay becomes more consistent, Javon is going to break out and become a Top 5 receiver in this league. Who cares who is the RB, B. Marsh, Sheff, Graham, the young d-line, Champ and Dre, we can always find oline guys...


Who do the Chorfs have? Oh thats right, Brodie "i am a 3rd round pick in a division with Stud QBs" Frayle, Tony "old man" gonzales, Quitterson, who is nearing the end...

J. Allen wants big money, Mr 400+ carries Larry Johnson wants big money...

Honestly, if Oakland jells together quickly enough, don't be surprised if the Chorfs are in the Top 5 in next years draft.

[rovolution]

Key components?

Most of us here have been discussing if Smith will be the #2 or #3 WR, potentially getting beat out by a 23 year old.

Meadows didn't start when Lepsis went down last year and he won't be a starter this year. Pears is 25, he'll be at RT.

Adams just about defines one year rental, we just drafted two DEs in an attempt to replace Ekuban, and Ferguson has cost us more than he's won and is grossly overrated.

Lynch, Nalen, and Lepsis are legitimately key players, but Lynch is the third best DB we have as it is and arguably the 5th best defender period (behind Bailey, Bly, DJ, and Gold). Nalen and Lepsis are nearing the end of their respective careers but we've always retooled the OL on the fly. We have two talented C options in Myers and Eslinger as well as a higher round OT we just drafted who can take over for Lepsis in the next couple years and is a great fit for our system.

I know you're just trolling along here, but this is a discussion I've seen brought up quite a bit, so I'll make a post for those who actually know and care about Broncos football.

The heart of our team is now in place for the next 5+ years. Cutler is young and talented, he is at the core of it all. Walker, Graham, and Henry give him three reliable offensive weapons now and over the next 4-5 years. At those same positions we have young talent in Marshall, Scheffler, and Bell. As the older guys transition out the younger ones will step up, keeping Cutler surrounded by quality playmakers for the next decade. All we need to do is add to it and keep our OL in tact, which itself is seeing a heavy youth infusion with Kuper and Pears this year as well as Myers, Eslinger, and Harris waiting in the wings.

On defense it now all centers around Champ, DJ, and our young DL picks. Champ is going to be here making game changing plays for another decade at least. He's an all timer and short of catastrophic injury nothing will change that. DJ is a young talent who is now going to see an increased role at MLB, anchoring our linebackers with youth. We've now got three young DEs and a DT to build the line around, which compliments our two early 20's corners who're backing up Champ and Bly currently and will see an increased role when Bly takes a step back.

We have older veterans on this team, but they're contributors. The heart of this team is now built on youth gained in the last three very solid drafts.

Very well put post.

[Kaylore]

Key components?

Most of us here have been discussing if Smith will be the #2 or #3 WR, potentially getting beat out by a 23 year old.

Meadows didn't start when Lepsis went down last year and he won't be a starter this year. Pears is 25, he'll be at RT.
Yeah this won't be an issue at all.

Adams just about defines one year rental, we just drafted two DEs in an attempt to replace Ekuban, and
Adams will be better than you think and might stay longer than you suggest. If Warren doesn't pan out in Bates' scheme this year, Adams will stay.

Ferguson has cost us more than he's won and is grossly overrated.
Try underrated. Bronco fans bag on him all the time, but he's a solid safety. How he'll come back from the injury remains to be seen.

Lynch, Nalen, and Lepsis are legitimately key players, but Lynch is the third best DB we have as it is and arguably the 5th best defender period (behind Bailey, Bly, DJ, and Gold).
Lynch is better than Gold. In fact expect Gold to be released at the end of next season. Remember one of the three first round targets was a weak side linebacker. They're ready to move on and just need to let his cap play out.

Nalen and Lepsis are nearing the end of their respective careers but we've always retooled the OL on the fly. We have two talented C options in Myers and Eslinger as well as a higher round OT we just drafted who can take over for Lepsis in the next couple years and is a great fit for our system. I agree with all this except for the Eslinger part. He's probably gone.

I agree that this idea that our team is "really old" is baffling to me. Nalen, Lynch and Rod skew the age up, but you take those guys out and the average age our starters is 26. Let them believe what they want. They're idiots.

[rubaiyat]

Well aren't they possibly planning on moving Hamilton to Center when Nalen retires?

And we still have Kuper.

[Kaylore]

Well aren't they possibly planning on moving Hamilton to Center when Nalen retires?

And we still have Kuper.

All praise and glory to Kuper!

:notworthy

[Florida_Bronco]

Kaylore, why do you think Eslinger will be gone? Wasn't the team pretty high on him? ???

[Kaylore]

Kaylore, why do you think Eslinger will be gone? Wasn't the team pretty high on him? ???

I don't ever remember hearing they were high on him. I've heard they were high on Chris Kuper, Chris Myers has drawn praise and that Ryan Harris has caught on very quickly in camp. The only thing I've heard in the press about Esslinger is that he needs to bulk up and was too small. This apparently hasn't changed much. I really hope he can somehow make the push to the pros, but I don't think he has the frame for it.

[SoCalBronco]

I don't ever remember hearing they were high on him. I've heard they were high on Chris Kuper, Chris Myers has drawn praise and that Ryan Harris has caught on very quickly in camp. The only thing I've heard in the press about Esslinger is that he needs to bulk up and was too small. This apparently hasn't changed much. I really hope he can somehow make the push to the pros, but I don't think he has the frame for it.

Yeah...Greg could use another year on the Fake IR to continue to bulk up.

[wabbit]

Big Fat tackles that gobble up center and gaurds.

Fast ends that pressure O-tackles and force plays inside.

Speedy linebackers with play making abilities. Middle LB collecting major tackles, thanks to the funnel of play inside.

Tough corners playing bump and man to man. (But with Champ he may like him do his thang)

Safeties with ball skills. (My only concern is Lynch in coverage)

That's about the long & short of it...good post.

Your point is especially well taken with Bates emphasis on the role of the MLB, so I assume he believes he needs a talent on the order of Williams to carry it out ( see Zach Thomas-Miami).

As for the the O-line & the rising urgency of developing a replacement for a possible HOF Center, I've heard from several beat writers that coaches expect either Greg Myers or Eslinger to step up this year or be gone.

It will be an especially important Training Camp competition to follow.

My understanding is that the team would prefer to keep Hamilton at Guard if at all possible...I would suppose that could change if none of the other hopefuls work out.

[Vegas_Bronco]

And we still have Sam Brandon - the UNLV Alumn - WOOT! Sam barely made the cut last year but played decently during the season. I have to really pin his and all our recent DB 'success' (used lightly) on Champ. It's amazing to me that if you bring in an Hall of Fame position player it boosts the play of all those at that position on the team. Bailey has really revolutionized the DB position for all at that position in Denver. I bet he might have been able to motivate even Willie Middlebust.

I think this is a 3 hinge team - it will all come down to how well/healthy our offensive line is (consistent week in and week out performances); our sophmore qb (not making the big mistakes but learning how to MANAGE to win); and how the LB corps operates (New Boy in the Middle). I feel the team will have some amazing suprises at DE and DT (I can't wait to see them compete); WR is crammed with talent as well as our TE's, DB's and Safeties (maybe not crammed with skill but both have heart and desire like no other - I'll take Lynch and Fergy anyday over any other NFL tandem).

[Vegas_Bronco]

That's about the long & short of it...good post....

...I would suppose that could change if none of the other hopefuls work out.

Bring forth the Hopefuls (made my night Wabbit with that Willow reference) - lol! Hilarious!

[Triplelefthook]

I posted this a while back about the Bates system. it is from a dophins message board from when bates was still their d-coordinator, i believe:


The nature of JJ's 4-3 Defense, which Miami still uses, is a very aggressive Defense in its base. The Front 7 are in an attacking mode, it's not a relaxed read mode defense like some of the other 4-3 type defenses. The most common reads bring our DE's down the Line of scrimmage tight (in a "wrong-arm" technique) when OT's or TE block down, and the LB's into either a "Fit" (outside hip- off tackle) or "fill" inside a specified gap. Although there are many combo's of how fit and fill may work based on the front 4 alignment, its a very easy Defense to learn and run. But it's difficult to stop, especially if a team has two key ingredients.

First - The WOLB in this defense is supposed to be "The man" on Defense. In college, USC placed Sammy Knight at the WOLB spot because he was such an exceptional player. He had played the safety position in the same JJ 4-3 scheme at his HS (Rubidoux HS in So Cal). Having Rodgers (another player from my area - so I don't mean to rip him, as he played for a friend of mine Barry Meier at RCC) at WOLB just never really worked out. When he came out of ASU everyone in Miami's organization thought with his maturity and speed that he'd be the perfect WOLB in JJ's scheme. Unfortunetly, it never came into reality. Rodgers wasn't the kind of playmaker the JJ scheme needs at that position. He was steady, but the position calls for spectacular. Take for example some of the people that have played WOLB in Dallas, the other team that runs our scheme. Norton, Coakley, etc.....playmakers, speed, maybe the best players on those D's. That's why it might look this year like we are running a "more aggressive scheme", but in reality it's the same with a playmaker named Junior Seau at WOLB. Add to that Marion and Knight at SS and FS, two other important positions in this scheme, and we might have our best year ever at creating pressure and stopping the run.

Second - The SS and FS must be GREAT (not good) run stoppers in this Defense! Obviously the CB's need to be ok too, but it today's NFL it's more important for the CB's to be coverage studs. We have that. The Safeties in this scheme share outside contain responsibility (depending on the Defensive call and alignment) with the SOLB and WOLB. In other words, on one particular call and/ or read the SOLB might have contain on one side of the field, and the FS might have contain on the otherside - as well as flat responsibility against the pass. Or the OLB's could have contain in another call, or both Safeties could have contain in yet another. See, this defense mixes up it's contain responsibilities while also bringing outside pressure from DE (tight to LOS) and inside pressure. That is the treasure of the defense Dolfans. If you don't know who the contain man is (for sure) then it is very difficult to run outside, plus add in the fact that the OLB's are fast as heck, and the Safeties are run stuffers and you start to get the idea about why this defense is such a great one. It is a high pressure Defense even when no blitz is called.

Just like it's been said over time that a team that runs the Option play PERFECTLY can't be stopped......this defense can't be blocked if it's ran PERFECTLY in terms of speed, aggressiveness, and duty. It is simply unstoppable. In my opinion as a coach trained by JJ's staff in Dallas (indirectly) , Greenwood and rodgers played not to give up big plays. However, in this scheme thats not how it should be played. The OLB and SS-FS need to be smart, aggressive players. Playmakers. I think Marion, Knight, Seau, and the winner of the battle at the SOLB this year will meet that description. BTW- When this Defense is going full steam there isnt a better scheme to watch in all Football IMO.

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http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=18161

[Los Broncos]

I posted this a while back about the Bates system. it is from a dophins message board from when bates was still their d-coordinator, i believe:


The nature of JJ's 4-3 Defense, which Miami still uses, is a very aggressive Defense in its base. The Front 7 are in an attacking mode, it's not a relaxed read mode defense like some of the other 4-3 type defenses. The most common reads bring our DE's down the Line of scrimmage tight (in a "wrong-arm" technique) when OT's or TE block down, and the LB's into either a "Fit" (outside hip- off tackle) or "fill" inside a specified gap. Although there are many combo's of how fit and fill may work based on the front 4 alignment, its a very easy Defense to learn and run. But it's difficult to stop, especially if a team has two key ingredients.

First - The WOLB in this defense is supposed to be "The man" on Defense. In college, USC placed Sammy Knight at the WOLB spot because he was such an exceptional player. He had played the safety position in the same JJ 4-3 scheme at his HS (Rubidoux HS in So Cal). Having Rodgers (another player from my area - so I don't mean to rip him, as he played for a friend of mine Barry Meier at RCC) at WOLB just never really worked out. When he came out of ASU everyone in Miami's organization thought with his maturity and speed that he'd be the perfect WOLB in JJ's scheme. Unfortunetly, it never came into reality. Rodgers wasn't the kind of playmaker the JJ scheme needs at that position. He was steady, but the position calls for spectacular. Take for example some of the people that have played WOLB in Dallas, the other team that runs our scheme. Norton, Coakley, etc.....playmakers, speed, maybe the best players on those D's. That's why it might look this year like we are running a "more aggressive scheme", but in reality it's the same with a playmaker named Junior Seau at WOLB. Add to that Marion and Knight at SS and FS, two other important positions in this scheme, and we might have our best year ever at creating pressure and stopping the run.

Second - The SS and FS must be GREAT (not good) run stoppers in this Defense! Obviously the CB's need to be ok too, but it today's NFL it's more important for the CB's to be coverage studs. We have that. The Safeties in this scheme share outside contain responsibility (depending on the Defensive call and alignment) with the SOLB and WOLB. In other words, on one particular call and/ or read the SOLB might have contain on one side of the field, and the FS might have contain on the otherside - as well as flat responsibility against the pass. Or the OLB's could have contain in another call, or both Safeties could have contain in yet another. See, this defense mixes up it's contain responsibilities while also bringing outside pressure from DE (tight to LOS) and inside pressure. That is the treasure of the defense Dolfans. If you don't know who the contain man is (for sure) then it is very difficult to run outside, plus add in the fact that the OLB's are fast as heck, and the Safeties are run stuffers and you start to get the idea about why this defense is such a great one. It is a high pressure Defense even when no blitz is called.

Just like it's been said over time that a team that runs the Option play PERFECTLY can't be stopped......this defense can't be blocked if it's ran PERFECTLY in terms of speed, aggressiveness, and duty. It is simply unstoppable. In my opinion as a coach trained by JJ's staff in Dallas (indirectly) , Greenwood and rodgers played not to give up big plays. However, in this scheme thats not how it should be played. The OLB and SS-FS need to be smart, aggressive players. Playmakers. I think Marion, Knight, Seau, and the winner of the battle at the SOLB this year will meet that description. BTW- When this Defense is going full steam there isnt a better scheme to watch in all Football IMO.

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http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=18161

How do teams counter this on offense?

[Beantown Bronco]

How do teams counter this on offense?

Teams with really good Olines can exploit this system....it can be run on with success if the interior DLine can't force double teams. And deep patterns will be open all day if the QB has good protection.

[Los Broncos]

Teams with really good Olines can exploit this system....it can be run on with success if the interior DLine can't force double teams. And deep patterns will be open all day if the QB has good protection.

If teams exploit this how do we adjust?

[Beantown Bronco]

If teams exploit this how do we adjust?

Blitz a LB or Lynch....

[Los Broncos]

Blitz a LB or Lynch....

Thats what i thought, we will see come august 13th.

[400HZ]

It's also weak against power run games I've heard. DE's lining up in a 9 tech are so easy to kick out that they don't even slow the play down, and make it easy for fullbacks and other leadblockers to get down field and take out a LB. I realize that safeties play a big roll in plugging exposures in the run game, but elite runningbacks can almost always beat one or even two safeties and make it to open field. To me it seems like a scheme which is very dependent on defensive linemen playing well.

[alkemical]

It's also weak against power run games I've heard. DE's lining up in a 9 tech are so easy to kick out that they don't even slow the play down, and make it easy for fullbacks and other leadblockers to get down field and take out a LB. I realize that safeties play a big roll in plugging exposures in the run game, but elite runningbacks can almost always beat one or even two safeties and make it to open field. To me it seems like a scheme which is very dependent on defensive linemen playing well.

Any D can be exploited. In a 3/4 - if you have an OL with the beef, you can power the DE and ILB/OLB and gain 7yds a carry. Any D starts upfront with the DL doing their jobs. This D that bates has appears to be much more of an attacking, designed to create pressure and disruptions, etc.

A big problem is going to be our "range" that the Safites have.

[El Minion]

From the KFFL board (http://www.kffl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195100&page=2):


---------------------

He wasn't let go and he didn't really get a raw deal. He interviewed for the permanent position but lost out to the Dolphins number one candidate and at the time consensus best available coach on the market in Nick Saban. Saban offered him the chance to remain in his previous capacity as DC but Bates, having had a taste of leading a team, felt he couldn't go back to that with the Dolphins and wanted to keep himself available as HC candidate for others. It didn't work out for him and he ended up in Green Bay (where the same thing happened when he was passed over after interview for Mike McCarthy).

In retrospect, I wish he'd stayed and got the job. Saban was obviously the wrong choice and I sincerely doubt, what with his initimate knowledge of the organisation, team and its players, that Bates would have done a worse job. However, he left on amicable terms by his own choice, as evidenced by his willingness to throw his hat in the ring and state his interest in the vacancy after Saban left.

Still, that's all by the by. What can I tell you about his defense? Well, first of all, it's not his defense. Miami ran it before Bates was hired by Wannstedt, and Wannstedt used it both in Chicago and under Jimmy Johnson where it won SB's in Dallas and a National Championship with the Miami Hurricanes. It's had a lot of success pre-Bates, but Bates knows it inside out and can run it in masterful fashion. The preformance of his Miami and Green Bay defenses are testament to that. In short, good hire. You have yourself someone who is something of a cult figure and fan favourite in Miami.

It is a simple defense, predicated on the following:

Big, stout, space eating DT's to clog the inside run, pass rush from the front four only, speedy LB's who can pursue and play zone, deep coverage safeties and corners who can play press man coverage all game long, all season long.

I'm sure all of you know Denvers' players better than I, so I'll go through the responsibilities of each unit, highlighting the Miami players under Bates and before, who made the scheme work. If you know anything about those players you should be able to figure out if you have them already or get an idea as to the type of defensive player Denver may seek in the off-season. At first glance and off the top of my head, your starting LB unit and one Champ Bailey are tailor made for this scheme and will love playing in it (especially under Bates who seems to command great loyalty and appreciation from his players).

I'll discuss this in a new post....

Defensive Line

It all starts in the middle with big guys who clog up that middle. Immovable objects with a nasty attitude that allow no push and a tiring day for an O-Line. Tim Bowens, Daryl Gardener and Larry Chester are the three primary players Miami utilised at this spot in the Johnson/Wannstedt/Bates era. You shouldn't expect big numbers from them as their play and usage will not show up directly on the stat sheet. Sacks and even pressures from these guys were a rare treat and this was dealt with on passing downs in a manner I shall explain in a moment.

The defensive ends purpose in life was to get to the QB, but they also had an important role in defending the run. It was a common misconception for many years that Miami's DE's were lacking in run defense, a misconception I believe was based on their size. The onus on DE's in this scheme is athleticism and speed, size is not important. Holding the point and funneling opposing runners to the LB's is. Jason Taylor, Trace Armstrong, Adewale Ogunleye and David Bowens could all do this at least capably, if not tremendously. Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila can not, which is why he's been relegated to a back up pass rush specialist in Green Bay despite having the speed, athleticism and size normally associated with the scheme. Tony Tolbert and Charles Haley also fitted the correct blueprint for Dallas in the early 90's.

The defensive line was also prone to major substitutions in this scheme, especially on passing downs. The big space eaters couldn't be moved in order to run on, however, they were also not particularly adept at moving themselves enough to get to the QB. Throughout it's time in this scheme, Miami had a number of DE's, some of the prototype size, some a little larger, to sub in when an all-out four man rush was required. Kenny Mixon, Lorenzo Bromell, Rich Owens, Rob Burnett and Jay Williams were all oft-utilised to provide this interior push. Looking at the current Bronco's roster, guys like Chukwurah and Dumervil could find themselves permanently at DE, while Ekuban, Lang and Veal could fill the role of passing down interior rush.

Linebackers

Speed, speed and more speed. Think you have the players to fit this requirement? ( ). Like birds of prey, their job on runing downs will be to swoop in above the discombobulated mess of lineman and pick off RB's edging closer and closer to the perimeters in an attempt to skirt round the edge. It's a pursuit defense at heart, a speed defense. The design is to present opposing runners with no option but to bounce outside only to find a LB (and quite often more as Bates will emphasise gang tackling) already there, waiting for him and screaming in for the tackle.

Passing down responsibilities amount to little more than providing an underneath zone, watching for crossing routes (that will be Wilson playing Zach Thomas' role) and the short outside routes.

One thing's for sure, the LB's should run up some impressive tackle numbers. Everything from short passes to the entire running game is designed for the LB's to make the stops. Everyone else is playing to ensure this happens. It's quite a big responsibility, but one any competitive LB worth his salt should relish. Apologies for the food inspired mixed metaphor...

Defensive Backs

Do you think Bailey will love this defense? Do you think Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain did? Terrell Buckley even... Or how about Al Harris and the rejuvinated Charles Woodson in Green Bay? Bailey should be asked to man up in press coverage all day long and contest every pass. That's right, contest every single pass. To allow this, the safeties almost always play a two-deep zone (which makes me wonder how Lynch will fit in this scheme), giving the corner the freedom to attack every single route. Run force responsibility is taken away and given to the speedy LB's and there is always some form of deep safety help. The corner can just man up and compete with his guy all game long. Cool huh? Are you salivating at this prospect yet? If you take a look at the career numbers of players like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning you'll notice that their statistical performances drop off considerably when compared to their overall numbers in games against Miami. A big part of that is having every single pass contested. There's no taking what the defense gives you because the defense isn't giving you anything. Add that to the kind of pass rush a Taylor teamed with Armstrong/Ogunleye gives you, well, you can see the results for yourself at any half decent stats site.

One thing you won't see is variety. It's a simple defense that features very little blitzing and no propensity to mix coverages or mentally confuse the QB. It's a pure 'this is what we do, try and beat it' scheme. It's strength is that, schematically, it tries to cover everything an offense might do. It's weakness is that you need good players across the board, or at least a certain type of player. Big DT's, fast LB's, great pass rushers and superb CB's. It worked for Wannstedt when he had the players Jimmy Johnson found for him in Dallas and Miami. It failed miserably for him when he had to find his own in Chicago.

With that said, a cursory look at the Bronco's roster suggests that a lot of the pieces are already in place. I assume this was part of the reason for his hire.

[anthonypacino]

If teams exploit this how do we adjust?Bates doesn't make too many adjustments, he just trusts what is in place. If there are missed tackles or no ability to rush, scheme won't change it'll have to be players. That's why his D's were good, but not great. We might be exploited on short passes/deep middle. Whomever gets the nod with DJ and Ian had better be a good, physical tackler. And we better get ourselves a safety with good coverage skills soon.

[Los Broncos]

Bates doesn't make too many adjustments, he just trusts what is in place. If there are missed tackles or no ability to rush, scheme won't change it'll have to be players. That's why his D's were good, but not great. We might be exploited on short passes/deep middle. Whomever gets the nod with DJ and Ian had better be a good, physical tackler. And we better get ourselves a safety with good coverage skills soon.

So this is not a fool proof system i take it.

Will it take us a couple of seasons to get it down?

[anthonypacino]

So this is not a fool proof system i take it.

Will it take us a couple of seasons to get it down?
I don't think so, it might take a couple of seasons to get the right players to run it though. No D is foolproof there is always something to exploit same way on O. It just becomes a cat and mouse game. Some D's are more of a read and react/bend but don't break, others are attacking and force a O to really plan around it in turn "taking them out of their gameplan".

Our D-line besides Warren is very raw and unproven, there is a hole at LB and our safeties are better run support, coming off of injuries and a tad older and could get beat often in the passing game. Once those things are fixed or proven it should work out OK.

[Los Broncos]

I don't think so, it might take a couple of seasons to get the right players to run it though. No D is foolproof there is always something to exploit same way on O. It just becomes a cat and mouse game. Some D's are more of a read and react/bend but don't break, others are attacking and force a O to really plan around it in turn "taking them out of their gameplan".

Our D-line besides Warren is very raw and unproven, there is a hole at LB and our safeties are better run support, coming off of injuries and a tad older and could get beat often in the passing game. Once those things are fixed or proven it should work out OK.

I know Champ is great in run support.

But how is Bly in the run support? or does it matter.

[anthonypacino]

I know Champ is great in run support.

But how is Bly in the run support? or does it matter.

Well with both of them playing more press coverage and not back in a zone, it will be harder for them to react to the run as well cause they won't be able to see it (unless they are locked up on a $hitty WR who takes plays off or doesn't hide runs well). They will be expected to hold the point/shake off the block and allow the LB's to make the play. In a zone with the DB playing off so far it allows the WR to WHAM block a LB, then putting a smaller DB in charge to make a play, in Champ's case he can and does make that play. Bly was good in college and with the Rams, I really lost track of him in Detroit, they were so bad as a team it was really hard to gauge if it was him regressing or just the situation around him. He will have a huge target on him all season, we'll find out early if he's got it or not.

[elsid13]

I wouldn't be surprised if the system is modified a little to fit the personnel Denver has on defense.

[That One Guy]

I'm confused. One guy here says the safeties must be great run stoppers while the other says that the priority is on them being able to turn the run over to the LBs and support the CBs who will be trying to contest the pass. Any clarification on this? Am I reading it wrong?

Second - The SS and FS must be GREAT (not good) run stoppers in this Defense! Obviously the CB's need to be ok too, but it today's NFL it's more important for the CB's to be coverage studs. We have that. The Safeties in this scheme share outside contain responsibility (depending on the Defensive call and alignment) with the SOLB and WOLB. In other words, on one particular call and/ or read the SOLB might have contain on one side of the field, and the FS might have contain on the otherside - as well as flat responsibility against the pass. Or the OLB's could have contain in another call, or both Safeties could have contain in yet another. See, this defense mixes up it's contain responsibilities while also bringing outside pressure from DE (tight to LOS) and inside pressure. That is the treasure of the defense Dolfans. If you don't know who the contain man is (for sure) then it is very difficult to run outside, plus add in the fact that the OLB's are fast as heck, and the Safeties are run stuffers and you start to get the idea about why this defense is such a great one. It is a high pressure Defense even when no blitz is called.

http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/showthread.php?t=18161


Defensive Backs

Do you think Bailey will love this defense? Do you think Sam Madison and Patrick Surtain did? Terrell Buckley even... Or how about Al Harris and the rejuvinated Charles Woodson in Green Bay? Bailey should be asked to man up in press coverage all day long and contest every pass. That's right, contest every single pass. To allow this, the safeties almost always play a two-deep zone (which makes me wonder how Lynch will fit in this scheme), giving the corner the freedom to attack every single route. Run force responsibility is taken away and given to the speedy LB's and there is always some form of deep safety help. The corner can just man up and compete with his guy all game long. Cool huh? Are you salivating at this prospect yet?

[That One Guy]

I wouldn't be surprised if the system is modified a little to fit the personnel Denver has on defense.

It seems like anyone who comes in and tries to make the players fit the scheme 100% would be a recipe for failure. If a player doesn't fit, you either change the scheme or the player.

[anthonypacino]

It seems like anyone who comes in and tries to make the players fit the scheme 100% would be a recipe for failure. If a player doesn't fit, you either change the scheme or the player.

That's one thing I like about some college football coaches more than the NFL sometimes. Coaches ability to change from year to year depending on talent rather than adhering to a certain system.

[Broncos_OTM]

reading this. This is a easy defense to learn. Jarvis Moss/Elvis Dumervil should have no problem adjusting to it. and i would suspect that they might even get a chance to start early. as they are good fits for this defense. i am a tad concerned with out tackles. one is ageing who fits the system well. Warren/Kennedy do not like playing that type of system. and i would say they are a liablity. Thomas is a penetrater on and a tad undersized and i also question his strength. Demarcus "tank" tyleer i feel would have been a better fit. and alvin mekinley is also undersized and i dont know how well hell fit the system either. Gold and williams are quick linebackers but i question the SLB.